a point about China's problems
max
scientists either, so...
This whole China Poison Train dustup is a bit of a double edged sword, after
a fashion.
On the one hand, the international community is filled with a mix of
shadenfreude and horror at the revelations of the utterly unsatisfactory
practices of *some* Chinese food manufacturers, and by extension, non food
manufacturers. "We" find our dismissals of Chinese products as worthless
cheap crap vindicated on a daily basis.
The Cheap Crap criticism has been almost the last buttress we have against
Chinese products -- you can by chinese junk, or you can buy good (American)
products.
The net effect of the current dustup will be a Darwinian improvement of
quality of Chinese products, and this will further pressure American
manufacturers, who still won't be able to compete on a labor cost basis.
Remember, we used to dismiss Japanese products with almost exactly the same
criticisms in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The next five years are likely to
see a quantum leap in aggregate Chinese quality. We already have some damn
fine Chinese made products on the market, and the number is about to get
significantly bigger.
The Chinese should improve their product safety and quality, and we will be
fools if we think that won't happen, and bigger fools if we don't forsee the
long range consequences to our balance of trade.
.max
PaPaPeng
wrote:
>
>Remember, we used to dismiss Japanese products with almost exactly the same
>criticisms in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The next five years are likely to
>see a quantum leap in aggregate Chinese quality. We already have some damn
>fine Chinese made products on the market, and the number is about to get
>significantly bigger.
>
>The Chinese should improve their product safety and quality, and we will be
>fools if we think that won't happen, and bigger fools if we don't forsee the
>long range consequences to our balance of trade.
>
>.max
China makes products according to what your US importer specifies and
pays for. The majority of Chinese manufacturers do not spend anything
on product design or the promotion of its own brand identity. For
mission critical products like airplane parts, major engineering
components they have to meet specifications before that can be
incorporated into the final manufacturers equipment - airplane parts,
major US auto parts, tractors, MRI equipment and medical diagnostic,
office equipmenet such as photocopiers and printers. You don't hear
complaints about the quality of these products. For low end consumer
products again its the importer who does the design and the marketing
for which they reap $900 out of the $1000 ticket price, the China
manufacturer getting only $100. You get what you pay for. There is
nothing worng with Chinese ability to make quality products. There
will come a time in the near future when the Chinese will promote
their own branded products for which they will put their name and
reputation behind their products. This will cut out the US middleman.
Then you will have real cause to complain about Made in China and it
won't be about quality. Then you will have to fight for a share of
that $100 instead of $900.
Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to reply
China, where deception is considered socially acceptable.
max wrote:
>
> Remember, we used to dismiss Japanese products with almost exactly the same
> criticisms in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The next five years are likely to
> see a quantum leap in aggregate Chinese quality. We already have some damn
> fine Chinese made products on the market, and the number is about to get
> significantly bigger.
--
Every job is a self-portrait of the person who does it. Autograph your
work with excellence.
PaPaPeng
reply <mme...@TRASHsonic.net> wrote:
>Maybe. The culture in Japan is different/better than the culture in
>China, where deception is considered socially acceptable.
Then you are in really deep trouble. Try buying Made in USA only.
Don K
news:7kkf931q3ll7j8h3n...@4ax.com...
>
> China makes products according to what your US importer specifies and
> pays for. The majority of Chinese manufacturers do not spend anything
> on product design or the promotion of its own brand identity. For
> mission critical products like airplane parts, major engineering
> components they have to meet specifications before that can be
> incorporated into the final manufacturers equipment - airplane parts,
> major US auto parts, tractors, MRI equipment and medical diagnostic,
> office equipmenet such as photocopiers and printers.
No importers are specifying that fake or toxic ingredients be used.
The recent execution of their food and drug official shows that China is beginning
to recognize they have a credibility problem and that the integrity of exports
is "mission-critical" to their economy.
Don
Rod Speed
Nope, that they just have a very gung ho approach
when dealing with those who choose to flout the law.
Its interesting that it doesnt stop others doing that sort of thing very much.
PaPaPeng
wrote:
>No importers are specifying that fake or toxic ingredients be used.
Back to the original argument. Its your (importer's) specs and
therefore your responsibility to be aware that you are buying what you
want and suitable for your market. The manufacturer makes something
he thinks that will sell in his local market. If he fails there its
his loss. The importer comes in and buys on price alone. He takes a
gamble that the product will find a market in his home country. The
manufacturer sells "as is". Its not disimilar to you ordering a
product off the catalogue from a no name merchandizer. You take the
risk.
>
>The recent execution of their food and drug official shows that China is beginning
>to recognize they have a credibility problem and that the integrity of exports
>is "mission-critical" to their economy.
>
>Don
This case had been broken at least two years ago, long before the
present campaign to highlight China as a place for shoddy products.
If your media and government hijacks the trial and execution as a sop
for your fears it suits the Chinese government to let you think so.
Regardless there is no sympathy for him from any quarter.
That said the current flap will certainly cause the Chinese
authorities to be more vigilant. So will your importers who should
make their own tests or at least incorporate contract specifications
as to quality and safety. There won't be any objections or resistance
to improving product quality and safety from either China or America.
This will not stop illegal practices. But if any party neglects to
exercise due diligence it will only have itself to blame. I am not
worried about your country's banning of Chinese imports. You only
cause unecessary hardships on your own economy.
Don K
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 23:40:57 -0400, "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com>
> wrote:
>
>>No importers are specifying that fake or toxic ingredients be used.
>
> Back to the original argument. Its your (importer's) specs and
> therefore your responsibility to be aware that you are buying what you
> want and suitable for your market. The manufacturer makes something
> he thinks that will sell in his local market. If he fails there its
> his loss. The importer comes in and buys on price alone. He takes a
> gamble that the product will find a market in his home country. The
> manufacturer sells "as is". Its not disimilar to you ordering a
> product off the catalogue from a no name merchandizer. You take the
> risk.
Caveat Emptor may be a valid philosophy when selling cheap widgets,
but if they tolerate that culture with their food and drug exports, they
will lose those markets.
There is such a term as "trusted supplier", where it benefits all parties to
do the right thing in the first place, and not try to cheat at every opportunity
by putting industrial solvents into food products, etc. In the long run it's just a
lot more efficient to do business that way, rather than to have to externally police
and monitor every step of production.
>>
>>The recent execution of their food and drug official shows that China is beginning
>>to recognize they have a credibility problem and that the integrity of exports
>>is "mission-critical" to their economy.
>
>
> This case had been broken at least two years ago, long before the
> present campaign to highlight China as a place for shoddy products.
> If your media and government hijacks the trial and execution as a sop
> for your fears it suits the Chinese government to let you think so.
> Regardless there is no sympathy for him from any quarter.
>
> That said the current flap will certainly cause the Chinese
> authorities to be more vigilant. So will your importers who should
> make their own tests or at least incorporate contract specifications
> as to quality and safety. There won't be any objections or resistance
> to improving product quality and safety from either China or America.
> This will not stop illegal practices. But if any party neglects to
> exercise due diligence it will only have itself to blame. I am not
> worried about your country's banning of Chinese imports. You only
> cause unecessary hardships on your own economy.
If individual industries want to operate that way with food and drug products
and if China can't police them to clean up their act, then the importing countries
will certainly restrict imports.
Don
max
on Boing Boing yesterday.
<http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/13/bunnie_huangs_blogse.html>
Tocsin, klaxon, harbinger --- whatever one wants to call it, the
implications for our future are clear, and scary.
[i've re-written the following about 6 times, striving for succinctness in
erudition and just can't get it right, so:]
Lesson: America is totally fucked, because the Chinese worker works harder
than the American worker.
It also makes me curious about the Chumby.
<http://www.google.com/search?&q=chumby>
.max
Rod Speed
> I found a nice article about one guy's experience with
> Chinese manufacturing on Boing Boing yesterday.
> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/13/bunnie_huangs_blogse.html
> Tocsin, klaxon, harbinger --- whatever one wants to call
> it, the implications for our future are clear, and scary.
> [i've re-written the following about 6 times, striving for
> succinctness in erudition and just can't get it right, so:]
> Lesson: America is totally fucked, because the Chinese
> worker works harder than the American worker.
Its MUCH more complicated than that, essentially because there
are plenty of jobs that dont work with the worker back in china.
Pizzas are a tad cold when produced in china.
Rod Speed
> This isn't rocket science, but on the other hand,
> most people aren't rocket scientists either, so...
> This whole China Poison Train dustup is a bit
> of a double edged sword, after a fashion.
> On the one hand, the international community is filled with a
> mix of shadenfreude and horror at the revelations of the utterly
> unsatisfactory practices of *some* Chinese food manufacturers, and
> by extension, non food manufacturers. "We" find our dismissals of
> Chinese products as worthless cheap crap vindicated on a daily basis.
> The Cheap Crap criticism has been almost the last buttress we have
> against Chinese products -- you can by chinese junk, or you can buy
> good (American) products.
You often cant on that last anymore.
> The net effect of the current dustup will be a Darwinian
> improvement of quality of Chinese products, and this
> will further pressure American manufacturers, who
> still won't be able to compete on a labor cost basis.
> Remember, we used to dismiss Japanese products with
> almost exactly the same criticisms in the 50's, 60's and 70's.
Nope, we didnt see the same level of deliberate use
of dangerous substitutes like with the toothpaste.
> The next five years are likely to see a quantum leap in aggregate Chinese quality.
Doesnt mean that we wont see the same behavious by the dregs tho.
> We already have some damn fine Chinese made products on the market,
Yes, particularly from Taiwan.
> and the number is about to get significantly bigger.
We'll see...
> The Chinese should improve their product safety and quality, and
> we will be fools if we think that won't happen, and bigger fools if we
> don't forsee the long range consequences to our balance of trade.
And the effect on the prices of what we buy.
D.
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 19:20:45 -0700, Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to
>
> >Maybe. The culture in Japan is different/better than the culture in
> >China, where deception is considered socially acceptable.
>
> Then you are in really deep trouble. Try buying Made in USA only.
No one is saying to "buy Made in USA only" . . . I think this Chinese
PaPaPeng misunderstands.
The fact is, people are starting to say "buy from Quality suppliers
only." Until China has its forecasted huge improvement in quality,
this will hurt their export market. And the argument that China can
become like Japan makes no sense to me. That's because the culture in
Japan lends itself to high-quality manufacturing (the same with
Europe, the States, etc). The culture in China has shown the world
that deception, lies, cheating, etc. is ingrained in society. You
can't have drastic change occur overnight when the issue stems from
culture. It will take far longer than some posters expect for China to
change its stripes. We are still at the tip of the iceberg as far as
new revelations go about Chinese tainted products and quality
problems.
I'm sure that there is plenty of deception and cheating in the USA, in
Europe, etc, but there has been enough time to separate those
practices from the product quality that results. We still see the
occasional apartment building crumble because it was built sub-
standard by cheating contractors . . . but when you go out for a
burger, you're not getting any cardboard in your meat.
D.
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> The fact is, people are starting to say "buy from Quality suppliers
> only." Until China has its forecasted huge improvement in quality,
> this will hurt their export market. And the argument that China can
> become like Japan makes no sense to me. That's because the culture in
> Japan lends itself to high-quality manufacturing (the same with
> Europe, the States, etc).
You do know that "Made in Germany" had been introduced to warn British
consumers that they were going to buy cheap rip-offs of British
quality products?
max
Peter Bruells <p...@ecce-terram.de> wrote:
Insist on Genuine Lucas Replacement Parts!
Peter Bruells
PaPaPeng
For more than 30 years the export to and consumption of China made
goods around the world had grown by leaps and bounds. In spite of the
latest campaign to smear not only these products but also to smear a
whole people and country the trade figures have gone ever higher.
Hundreds of millions of people worldwide are certainly no fools and
their buying behavoir is a thumping vote of confidence to discount the
smear campaign.
Look at your own retail sales figures and figure out what you want to
believe. The trade surplus in China's favor for 2007 is already >$200
billions. Even if a miniscule fraction of that is in shoddy or
dangerous goods the impact should be very significant, significant
enough to see real victims and real damages, thus consumer lawsuits.
Name one.
Thus far you have made your concerns known. That's not a problem. The
customer is always right in that if the producer does not meet
customer expectations he hasn't got a sale. The plight of many
American manufacturers whose product should meet all your product
safety and quality standards, attest to this.
Your administration has chosen to politicize the trade imbalance. The
inconsistent and strategically incomprehensible attacks are on many
fronts, military, political, social, religious and now this. The
shoddy-unsafe products issue has already faded from the headlines as
there are no more cases beyond the few thus far. It will have
disappeared from the headlines once the new school year starts or
sooner when another Bush scandal erupts.
In this lucrative environment there will be those who cheat. Cheating
requires two parties. The producer and the distributor since the
producer does not have direct contact or access with customers abroad.
As you (D) said cheating happens everywhere* and we will have to deal
with this as an ordinary crime be this be in the US or in China. It
is there but it is not widespread. My objection is the racist
sentiment that is often just under the surface of many in the States
that tars a whole people as sneaky, untrustworthy and evil. It is
futile and pointless to try to change the minds of such people. Its
in their DNA. To save a lot of argument I ask them to buy only Made
in USA.
*Your recent case of corprate malfeasance is far more insiduous than
anything out of China [On May 10th 2007, the Stamford,
Connecticut-based The Purdue Frederick Company, Inc., pleaded guilty
to felony charges that they purposely misbranded the painkiller
OxyContin with intent to mislead and defraud. Purdue and the three
executives will pay a total of $634,515,475. President and Chief
Operating Officer Michael Friedman, Executive Vice President and Chief
Legal Officer Howard Udell, and former Executive Vice President of
Worldwide Medical Affairs Paul D. Goldenheim, pleaded guilty to a
misdemeanor charge of misbranding OxyContin.]
If you have ever done any high school science courses the very first
paragraph of the original report on cardboard treated with caustic
soda and mixed with fatty pork should have set off your antenna right
away. Caustic soda is DRANO is sodium hydroxide. Handle that and you
get alkali burns on your hands. Wash it off promptly and your skin
feels soapy because the lye would have already reacted with the fat in
your skin to make soap. Cooking does not neutralize it. Read my
earlier reference links to the manufacture of rayon (wood pulp steeped
in lye) and the making of soap. There is no way you can add plup to
lye and fat and pass that off as ersatz meat. If you swallow that you
are more than gullible. You'll be drop dead and in extreme agony.
Furthermore CCTV is a government run TV channel. It doesn't do
expose's let alone a fabricated one.
In the same vein go to Wikipedia and read the accounts on melamine in
pet food and other current China products are poison reports. There's
a lot of suspicions and finger pointing but no definite proof damage
or linkage. In such matters caution is the better part of valor and
steps are being taken to remove these concerns. The customers'
perceptions and acceptance are paramount regardless of production
methods*.
*Recall the Alar controversy. Alar was ideal for protecting fruits
from insect bites that scar the fruit skin. Its harmless, good for
producing attractive fruits, extends storage, etc. But the campaign
to ban them was successful.
D.
views of this food reporter, who loves China, the Chinese people, and
Chinese food. Perhaps the problems are more widespread that PaPaPeng
would lead us to believe,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6897844.stm
D.
Rod Speed
> PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> Melinda Meahan wrote
>> reply <mmea...@TRASHsonic.net> wrote
>>> Maybe. The culture in Japan is different/better than the culture
>>> in China, where deception is considered socially acceptable.
>> Then you are in really deep trouble. Try buying Made in USA only.
> No one is saying to "buy Made in USA only" . . .
> I think this Chinese PaPaPeng misunderstands.
> The fact is, people are starting to say "buy from Quality suppliers
> only." Until China has its forecasted huge improvement in quality,
> this will hurt their export market. And the argument that China can
> become like Japan makes no sense to me. That's because the
> culture in Japan lends itself to high-quality manufacturing (the
> same with Europe, the States, etc).
It wasnt always that way, they had the same reputation for
cheap crap at one time, likely before you were even born.
> The culture in China has shown the world that
> deception, lies, cheating, etc. is ingrained in society.
It happens in all societys.
> You can't have drastic change occur overnight when the issue stems
> from culture. It will take far longer than some posters expect for China
> to change its stripes. We are still at the tip of the iceberg as far as new
> revelations go about Chinese tainted products and quality problems.
Nope.
> I'm sure that there is plenty of deception and cheating in the
> USA, in Europe, etc, but there has been enough time to separate
> those practices from the product quality that results. We still see
> the occasional apartment building crumble because it was built
> sub-standard by cheating contractors . . . but when you go out
> for a burger, you're not getting any cardboard in your meat.
You do get salmonella etc tho. And mad cow in england too.
Rod Speed
> Peter Bruells <p...@ecce-terram.de> wrote
>> D. <djense...@cox.net> writes
> Things go in circles, don't they.
Some do, some dont.
We wont be seeing a return to absolute monarchys
or the Japs attempting to rule the world again.
> The point is, China has screwed up the deal.
They aint the only ones to have done that. Forgotten mad cow already ?
> How long would it take you to forget the neighborhood grocery
> that was later found to be selling you poisoned products?
Not as long as to forget about mad cow in hamburgers.
> It took at least two decades for "Made in Japan" to
> mean quality here in the States, and perhaps that is
> what happened in England as well with German products.
Its much more complicated than that with cars for example.
> It won't be something that happens quickly like one poster said in this threa.
> It will take a long time, and during that time there will be other countries
> that will end up being the low-cost manufacturing partner for the world.
Sure, but they are often worse with food particularly.
Dennis
>If you have ever done any high school science courses the very first
>paragraph of the original report on cardboard treated with caustic
>soda and mixed with fatty pork should have set off your antenna right
>away. Caustic soda is DRANO is sodium hydroxide. Handle that and you
>get alkali burns on your hands. Wash it off promptly and your skin
>feels soapy because the lye would have already reacted with the fat in
>your skin to make soap. Cooking does not neutralize it. Read my
>earlier reference links to the manufacture of rayon (wood pulp steeped
>in lye) and the making of soap. There is no way you can add plup to
>lye and fat and pass that off as ersatz meat. If you swallow that you
>are more than gullible. You'll be drop dead and in extreme agony.
Tell ya what: go look up "lutefisk". Then get back to us regarding
whether something treated with lye is edible or not.
Dennis (evil)
--
An inherent weakness of a pure democracy is that half
the voters are below average intelligence.
D.
related to Chinese exports,
http://shamvswham.blogspot.com/search?q=China
D.
Don K
> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 08:52:37 -0700, "D." <djen...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
> For more than 30 years the export to and consumption of China made
> goods around the world had grown by leaps and bounds. In spite of the
> latest campaign to smear not only these products but also to smear a
> whole people and country the trade figures have gone ever higher.
> Hundreds of millions of people worldwide are certainly no fools and
> their buying behavoir is a thumping vote of confidence to discount the
> smear campaign.
To suggest China's quality control problem is a result of some smear campaign
is pure jingoism.
Second and Third world countries just don't have the regulatory institutions
in-place to assure the same level food and drug quality that the first-world
countries have come to expect.
That doesn't mean it will never happen, but it will take a committed effort
and a lot of work to bring it about.
Don
Rod Speed
Its more likely that they wont bother.
Most of them dont even have enough of a clue to separate where they crap from the water supply.
Nexus7
> On Jul 13, 7:54 pm, PaPaPeng <PaPaP...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Then you are in really deep trouble. Try buying Made in USA only.
>
> No one is saying to "buy Made in USA only" . . . I think this Chinese
> PaPaPeng misunderstands.
Oh no, he doesn't. The diseased fuck "D." however, does resort to ad
hominem. In addition, the long-winded moron takes many paragraphs to
show that he or she has missed the point, which is that the
manufacturers in China make what is specified. The fat-assers in the
US, fresh from their MBA education which teaches them that the life of
the consumer is secondary to a fat bonus, don't pay for quality.
That is the point. Not that there is corruption in China. Afterall,
we've got republicans in office here too.
Nexus7
> Remember, we used to dismiss Japanese products with almost exactly the same
> criticisms in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The next five years are likely to
> see a quantum leap in aggregate Chinese quality. We already have some damn
> fine Chinese made products on the market, and the number is about to get
The similarity between the Chinese and the Japanese is not shown.
Therefore the inference is bogus.
barbie gee
Well, the Chinese are certainly highly motivated, so I'd bet they'll have
stuff like that set up in a year or two...
PaPaPeng
Must be a slow summer. There's a lot of self induced hysteria over
Made in China product safety in the States. It hardly comes up as a
news item here in the Great White North. Probably there is a pinko
commie conspiracy to poison Americans or at least drive them up the
wall.
I live in Canada and hardly ever use China made food products or
personal hygiene products. Shopping and cooking the regular grocery
store stuff is so much more convenient. If I want authentic Chinese
cusine I go to a Chinese restaurant. You don't want to make that from
scratch. Its too ridiculously difficult to get it right. I dine out
there maybe once to four times a fortnight. They'd have a hard time
poisoning me if they tried.
I am frugal but not that hard-up as to shop at the Dollar Store for
personal hygiene products. The savings if any are not enough to make
a difference. Shopping for me is a very quick and predictable affair
and I have stuck to the same core products (non Chinese) for several
decades now. Old habits and old tastes die hard.
I love all the other Dollar Store knickknacks though. They're cheap
enough to use and to experiment with anything new. If its crap just
toss it. It is never worth the expense in time and a trip for a
refund. I enjoy expermenting with new stuff until I find something
that works for me and may stick to it. There isn't very much that is
new that I need to changes my preferences for. This is no brainer
ordinary. common sense. I presume all of you consider yourselves in
this category.
If I as a honest to goodness sinophile Chinaman have so little
interaction with Made in China products the chances are your
encounters with Made in China products with safety concerns is
practically nil. To save a lot of argument why not just make it
absolutely nil. Your lives will be so much more worry free.
With regard to that BBC story its an insipid story to cash in on the
current hysteria. No one is twisting anybody's arm to eat in Chinese
food establishments. If anyone believes it has hygiene problems just
walk away. Even a lame brain knows enough to do that for any
establishment whatever its origin. But there is a point I am in
total agreement with. I am against the use of exotic animals for
luxury dining. There is absolutely no need to use non farm produced
animals for food.
Jon v Leipzig
> We are still at the tip of the iceberg as far as
> new revelations go about Chinese tainted products and quality
> problems.
For some reasons, the serious problems elsewhere never make it to the
mainstream "news" in the US. In Europe (don't recall exactly which
countries) they found counterfeit birth control pills and fake blood
protein from China. Think that incident in Panama with the fake
glycerine mixed into cold meds happened last year. Just recently heard
mention of this. Supposedly about 50 deaths were attributed to this,
just in Panama.
Y'ad think maybe the importer or cold med mfgr would test this stuff
before buying 50-gallon drums of it. ??
Also, the incidents occurring within China rarely make it to the Western
media, such as the fake powdered milk disaster. This product was also
exported to India. so who knows how many babies died in both countries.
>> when you go out for a burger, you're not getting any cardboard in your meat.
Imo, cardboard might be a good source of non-nutritive fiber, probably
less contaminated than the meat.
Jon v Leipzig
> The Chinese should improve their product safety and quality, and we will be
> fools if we think that won't happen, and bigger fools if we don't forsee the
> long range consequences to our balance of trade.
>
I wish they'd hurry. I have an ever-expanding list of cheap, defective
crap from Slavemart. The novelty of having a Walmart fairly close to
town is wearing off quickly. Maybe can't blame the Chinese, it's
Walmart that demands cheap, Grade C junque.
Vic Smith
>On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 11:57:23 -0700, "D." <djen...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>I would suggest anyone interested in this topic read the personal
>>views of this food reporter, who loves China, the Chinese people, and
>>Chinese food. Perhaps the problems are more widespread that PaPaPeng
>>would lead us to believe,
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6897844.stm
>>
>>D.
>
>
>Must be a slow summer. There's a lot of self induced hysteria over
>Made in China product safety in the States. It hardly comes up as a
>news item here in the Great White North. Probably there is a pinko
>commie conspiracy to poison Americans or at least drive them up the
>wall.
>
It was the pet food poisoning that got it going strong. Had to throw
some out myself. That and a general feeling that this administration
is not doing the job in ensuring food safety. The spinach e.coli
poisonings late last year is still fresh in peoples minds too.
>I live in Canada and hardly ever use China made food products or
>personal hygiene products. Shopping and cooking the regular grocery
>store stuff is so much more convenient. If I want authentic Chinese
>cusine I go to a Chinese restaurant. You don't want to make that from
>scratch. Its too ridiculously difficult to get it right. I dine out
>there maybe once to four times a fortnight. They'd have a hard time
>poisoning me if they tried.
>
The dead pets weren't eating Chinese. There are many processed foods
which give no indication of where the ingredients come from, or under
what inspection regimes safety checks take place.
There is a strong sense here that corporate and business interests are
undermining food safety, whether it be Chinese sourced or not.
I've seen no racist overtones to any of this, and suspect it is your
own racial pride that gets you ticked off. Get over it.
>I am frugal but not that hard-up as to shop at the Dollar Store for
>personal hygiene products. The savings if any are not enough to make
>a difference. Shopping for me is a very quick and predictable affair
>and I have stuck to the same core products (non Chinese) for several
>decades now. Old habits and old tastes die hard.
>
>I love all the other Dollar Store knickknacks though. They're cheap
>enough to use and to experiment with anything new. If its crap just
>toss it. It is never worth the expense in time and a trip for a
>refund. I enjoy expermenting with new stuff until I find something
>that works for me and may stick to it. There isn't very much that is
>new that I need to changes my preferences for. This is no brainer
>ordinary. common sense. I presume all of you consider yourselves in
>this category.
>
Most of the dollar store stuff is poor quality and we seldom browse
there anymore. Most dollar store items we've bought get were shortly
in the trash.
We do make the occasional trip for certain items.
Just last week I told my wife I wanted one of those magnifying glasses
she uses for myself. Some numbers are difficult to discern without
putting on stronger reading glasses, and it's easier on the eyes to
just put the glass over it. We stopped at a dollar store in the mall
and found even better magnifying glasses than she had, and picked up a
couple pairs of reading glasses too. Quality is fine.
There are a few other items she shops for there, but it is rare.
--Vic
PaPaPeng
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>It was the pet food poisoning that got it going strong. Had to throw
>some out myself. That and a general feeling that this administration
>is not doing the job in ensuring food safety. The spinach e.coli
>poisonings late last year is still fresh in peoples minds too.
And the advisory from the FDA was to toss out the veggies until the
source had been identified and the problem corrected. Common sense.
No need to call for the heads of the grocery store chiefs, the
agro-industry farmers or the Federal and State food safety officials.
If I recall there were less than a dozen pet deaths though there were
many reports of pets getting sick. The scare came and went amazingly
fast with the next news cycle or maybe it was Paris Hilton.
From WIKI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine
[In 2007 a pet food recall was initiated by Menu Foods and other pet
food manufacturers who had found their products had been contaminated
and caused serious illnesses or deaths in some of the animals that had
eaten them.[23][24][25] On 30 March 2007, the US Food and Drug
Administration reported finding white granular melamine in the pet
food, in samples of white granular wheat gluten imported from a single
source in China, Xuzhou Anying Biologic Technology [26] as well as in
crystalline form in the kidneys and in urine of affected animals.[27]
Further vegetable protein imported from China was later implicated.
See 2007 pet food recalls.
The practice of adding "melamine scrap" to animal feed is reported to
be widespread in China in order to give the appearance of increased
protein content in animal feed.[28] Melamine has also been purposely
added as a binder to fish and livestock feed manufactured in the
United States and traced to suppliers in Ohio and Colorado.[29] The
presence of melamine has not been conclusively linked to the deaths of
animals, as this chemical was previously thought to be non-toxic at
low doses.]
If melamine had been added it must have been done for quite some time
and without any known consequences. "The presence of melamine has not
been conclusively linked to the deaths of animals..." I'd be the
first to agree that non food chemicals should not have any place in
the food chain. Of course processed foods do need chemicals for
preservation, food safety, etc. But no food manufacturer should be
allowed to introduce unapproved and non traditional chemicals into
their products. This is a regulatory and a police matter. There is
no call for accusing a people and a country for being culturally
different and careless of human and pet safety, and of racial
propensity to cheat and cut corners.
Vic Smith
>On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 06:20:17 -0500, Vic Smith
><thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>It was the pet food poisoning that got it going strong. Had to throw
>>some out myself. That and a general feeling that this administration
>>is not doing the job in ensuring food safety. The spinach e.coli
>>poisonings late last year is still fresh in peoples minds too.
>
>
>And the advisory from the FDA was to toss out the veggies until the
>source had been identified and the problem corrected. Common sense.
>No need to call for the heads of the grocery store chiefs, the
>agro-industry farmers or the Federal and State food safety officials.
>
Yeah, no big deal. Die or suffer kidney damage for having the
temerity to eat a piece of fresh spinach. All in a day's eating.
After all, why go to the regulatory expense of requiring farmers
to keep cow shit off their produce?
Better some people die and get sick, everybody throws away their
spinach, then the guv uses the taxpayers' money saved by not
buying any more spinach to pay off the spinach farmers.
You are maybe the biggest business ass-kisser here now.
Congratulations
> This is a regulatory and a police matter. There is
>no call for accusing a people and a country for being culturally
>different and careless of human and pet safety, and of racial
>propensity to cheat and cut corners.
Where do you get all that? American business is no different
when let off the regulatory leash. As I said before, if you're
looking for racism, look within yourself first. Quit defending
conduct that is indefensible, whether the poisoners are American or
Chinese.
And quit pimping for China. Try to become an advocate for Canada
and its great peoples.
Your fellow Cannucks expect that of you.
--Vic
PaPaPeng
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:06:59 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 06:20:17 -0500, Vic Smith
>><thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>It was the pet food poisoning that got it going strong. Had to throw
>>>some out myself. That and a general feeling that this administration
>>>is not doing the job in ensuring food safety. The spinach e.coli
>>>poisonings late last year is still fresh in peoples minds too.
>>
>>
>>And the advisory from the FDA was to toss out the veggies until the
>>source had been identified and the problem corrected. Common sense.
>>No need to call for the heads of the grocery store chiefs, the
>>agro-industry farmers or the Federal and State food safety officials.
>>
>Yeah, no big deal. Die or suffer kidney damage for having the
>temerity to eat a piece of fresh spinach. All in a day's eating.
>After all, why go to the regulatory expense of requiring farmers
>to keep cow shit off their produce?
>Better some people die and get sick, everybody throws away their
>spinach, then the guv uses the taxpayers' money saved by not
>buying any more spinach to pay off the spinach farmers.
>You are maybe the biggest business ass-kisser here now.
>Congratulations
Like-minded Americans read their prejudices into another's posts. Its
my poke at cultural stereotyping in case you miss the point.
The US has a regulatory regimen in place. Let the system work as
intended. If there is no system make one. In the E. coli case the
problem was quickly identifed and stopped. The regulatory authorities
couldn't establish criminal responsibility. I don't know what the end
result of this outbreak was. Nobody's head rolled. The losses were
limited to the recall and absorbed by industry. The outcome is your
public was satisfied with whatever action was taken and you are eating
spinach. In your sue happy society I think lawsuits would be flying.
If any they seem to be pretty private affairs. The public isn't
claiming the US system is broken or that public safety is at risk.
Had any laws or procedures changed? No. More laws and the tearing of
hair won't eliminate such problems. You cannot inspect every farm any
more than you can inspect every batch of produce coming out of them.
The farmer who cow shit runoff seeped into the spinach field wasn't
aware there was a problem for himself or for the guy downstream. Shit
like that happens and will happen again and again. That's life You
fix that glitch and move on. There was no criminal intent and there
was no greed There is certainly no conspiracy and no institutional
negligence.
Why should the process be any different for food imports. Identify
and stop the problem first. Then assign blame . Where it is proved
and richly deserved, apply penalties. Sue the responsible parties.
The responsible party is not a country, a people or a culture.
>
>> This is a regulatory and a police matter. There is
>>no call for accusing a people and a country for being culturally
>>different and careless of human and pet safety, and of racial
>>propensity to cheat and cut corners.
>
>Where do you get all that? American business is no different
>when let off the regulatory leash.
Exactly. The same rules must apply. There is a world of difference
between suspicions and evidentiary proof that you can take to court.
Meanwhile there is certainly a problem of product perception. If
the customer doesn't like it for real of imagined quality and safety
defects then the producer MUST meet customer expectations or lose that
custom. From now on seafood farms in China must certify that they do
not use unapproved feed supplements and antiobiotics. No problem.
They must not raise their produce in polluted water. No problem. If
this raises the production costs and therefore your retail price. No
problem. If it doesn't make business sense. No problem. Quit and do
something else. Happens all the time. Ask your industries that have
moved to China.
>As I said before, if you're looking for racism, look within yourself first. Quit defending
>conduct that is indefensible, whether the poisoners are American or Chinese.
Its not about me. Its not about you either for I find your posts
reasonable and (until this one) well reasoned. Its about a lot of
Americans who have minimal interaction with a real Chinese person and
whose contact doesn't go beyond an occasional visit to WalMart. But
[All we are getting from the media is a feeding frenzy of insinuations
of Chinese misdeeds that often make far out links with Yuan
undervaluation, unfair competition, labor exploitation, military
expansion, minority oppression, human rights, Chinese sneakiness,
cultural propensity to devalue life, greed and dishonesty, etc.
[insert your favorite China basher here]. You can find these
accusations with the click of your mouse using my list of keywords.]
>And quit pimping for China. Try to become an advocate for Canada
>and its great peoples. Your fellow Cannucks expect that of you.
>
>--Vic
Yoh Vic. That's not you. I'll let it pass.
PaPaPeng
>>And quit pimping for China. Try to become an advocate for Canada
>>and its great peoples. Your fellow Cannucks expect that of you.
>>
>>--Vic
>
>
>Yoh Vic. That's not you. I'll let it pass.
Okay. The article below is fair comment. Pick it apart bone by bone
if you want to. The better argument, supported by valid evidence, wins
the day. No problemo.
I have only one position to defend. Don't tar a whole country, its
peoples and its culture. I know far more about the US than you will
ever know about China. Lets not do mud slinging.
Behind the hysteria about China's tainted goods
By Kent Ewing
July 18, 2007
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/IG18Cb01.html
HONG KONG - After initially putting up stiff resistance to an
avalanche of complaints about tainted goods ranging from toxic
toothpaste to exploding mobile-phone batteries, China is now going out
of its way to demonstrate adherence to international standards of
quality control.
While this is clearly a positive development, the fact remains that
Beijing simply does not have the regulatory regime in place to back up
its new rhetoric. Perhaps with this is mind, Chinese officials -
citing their own safety concerns - have made a point of blocking
Western imports of fruit, meat, seafood and mineral water in an
apparent tit-for-tat retaliation that they hope will cool what they
see as a growing international hysteria over Chinese exports.
In the future, expect more scandals involving tainted Chinese products
followed by more rhetoric and selective retaliation from the Chinese
government - and maybe another high-profile execution or two. But
until Beijing puts its regulatory house in order and reduces the
rampant cheating and corruption that are endemic to the system, there
will be no substantial change in the sometimes frightening status quo.
At present, the manufacture of fake and tainted products is a hugely
profitable business in China, the world's largest exporter of consumer
goods. To stop it would require severing the unscrupulous
government-business nexus that has become part and parcel of China's
stunning economic growth.
The litany of complaints over the past several months has focused on a
spate of animal deaths in North America tied to pet food laced with
melamine, cough medicine and toothpaste thickened with toxic
diethylene glycol, toys coated with lead-based paints, fish loaded
with antibiotics, antibiotics infected with bacteria, mobile-phone
batteries that explode, car tires that collapse, and more.
For the most part, the Chinese government's response has consisted of
a stubborn defense of its record on product safety. But Beijing has
also retaliated, refusing to accept 30 tonnes of "contaminated"
Australian seafood and five containers of Evian mineral water that
allegedly contained too many micro-organisms.
Imports from several US meat processors have also been suspended.
According to China's General Administration of Quality Supervision,
Inspection and Quarantine (AQSIQ), frozen poultry products from Tyson
Foods Inc - the world's largest meat processor - were infected with
salmonella. Other blocked imports included frozen chicken feet from
Sanderson Farms that the inspection agency found to be contaminated
with an anti-parasite drug and frozen pork ribs from Cargill Meat
Solutions Corp containing a leanness-enhancing feed additive.
A Cargill spokesman denied the agency's claims, while Tyson Foods
pledged to "work with the US and Chinese governments to get this
matter resolved". Sanderson Farms has yet to respond.
The retaliation has been accompanied by an adamant insistence on the
quality of Chinese exports, with an editorial in the state-run China
Daily asserting that "more than 99% of food exports to the US in the
last three years met quality standards" - an interesting claim
considering that Chinese regulators have admitted that nearly 20% of
consumer products checked for national consumption are substandard or
tainted.
Also in the China Daily, AQSIQ head Li Changjiang attacked the
international media for making exaggerated claims. "Some foreign
media, especially those based in the US, have wantonly reported on
so-called unsafe Chinese products," said Li. "They are turning white
to black." Li added: "One company's problem doesn't make it a
country's problem. If some food products are below standard, you can't
say all the country's food is unsafe."
But, of course, it is not just one company that is producing tainted
goods. The problem is systemic, and last week, under mounting
international pressure, Beijing finally seemed to wake up to the idea
that competing in the world market means acting on criticism and
embracing international standards.
In agreeing last Wednesday to ban the use in toothpaste of diethylene
glycol - an industrial solvent that is a component in antifreeze -
Li's agency seemed to back away from what until then had been an
entirely self-protective stance on the quality of Chinese exports.
Even after Chinese toothpaste was removed from the shelves of stores
in the United States, Canada, Japan, Singapore and Hong Kong, Beijing
had stuck to its guns, insisting that domestic tests showed the
toothpaste to be safe. Somehow, however, the world was not reassured
and, as complaints continued to rise, the ban was finally announced.
Also last week, in another gesture to the international community, the
State Food and Drug Administration (SFDA) tightened standards for
approval of new drugs and strengthened penalties for violators in an
industry that has been fraught with fraud and corruption. From now on,
companies that submit fake drugs for approval will face fines as high
as 30,000 yuan (nearly US$4,000) and a ban from any other tests of up
to three years.
The new regulations allow for expedited approval of important new
drugs but toughen requirements for generic drugs to make sure they
measure up to the brands they copy. The SFDA also announced that,
starting in September, Chinese food exports will be stamped with an
inspector's approval to show that they meet government standards.
And, in case anyone missed the point, former SFDA head Zheng Xiaoyu
was executed on July 10 for taking nearly $860,000 in bribes to
approve bogus drugs during his 1998-2005 tenure. The official
responsible for drug registration under Zheng, Cao Wenzhuang, was also
sentenced to death, albeit with a two-year reprieve, and Zheng's widow
and son have been imprisoned on corruption charges. Many Chinese
bureaucrats have received far more in under-the-table inducements than
did Zheng and lived to tell the tale, so his execution was clearly
calculated to send the message that the government is serious about
cleaning up its act on product safety.
"The few corrupt officials ... are the shame of the whole system,"
said SFDA spokeswoman Yan Jiangying, "and their scandals have revealed
some very serious problems. We should learn from these cases. We
should step up our efforts to ensure food and drug safety, which is
what we are doing now."
Beijing has also pledged to monitor food safety at the 2008 Summer
Olympics, and even the People's Liberation Army has issued a circular
underscoring food safety as an important aspect of "preparation for
military conflicts".
But messages are one thing; action is another. China's regulatory
regime has not grown nearly as fast as its runaway economy, and thus
there is simply no way for regulators to keep up with the frauds and
cheats in the system. For example, while China is a nation of 1.3
billion people, the staff at the Beijing State Environmental
Protection Administration office numbers fewer than 300.
By contrast, the US, with a population of 300 million, has an employee
payroll of more than 17,000 at its Environmental Protection Agency. Is
there any wonder that China's environment is losing the battle against
the country's breakneck capitalist growth?
More to the point, the SFDA approves 10,000 new drugs a year, while
the US licenses about 50 new drugs annually. It is also no mystery why
Chinese food exports can go wrong: 75% of China's food is produced by
small, unlicensed companies that often escape regulation. The result
of this regulatory inadequacy has been - and will continue to be - a
lot of fake, faulty and sometimes downright dangerous goods.
That said, there is also something to the Chinese argument that the
quality-control issue is being exploited as a de facto trade barrier
against the country's exports. It is true that the nation has been
unfairly singled out, especially in the US, where trade tension is
already high over the Chinese currency, which some critics say is
undervalued by as much as 40%.
A recent New York Times report, citing US Food and Drug Administration
data, showed that China was far from alone in exporting goods of poor
quality and was not the worst offender. For example, while seafood
from China was impounded 391 times last year, produce from the
Dominican Republic was seized 817 times and candy from Denmark 520
times. India and Mexico also compared unfavorably with China.
Nevertheless, the common perception in the US and elsewhere is that
China is the chief perpetrator of export fraud and danger.
As their country is the world's biggest exporter, however, that is a
perception with which the Chinese have learned they must reckon.
Kent Ewing is a teacher and writer at Hong Kong International School.
He can be reached at kew...@hkis.edu.hk.
Vic Smith
I did miss it. And still do. You reconfirm below what you said
above. I disagree that preventing *all* such e.coli contamination
is difficult to do. I disagree that everybody is back to eating
spinach as they were before. I disagree that the regulatory agencies
were performing due diligence.
I don't go looking for crap. The real issues are evident. Racial
garbage is easily dismissed, cultural differences put in proper
context.
>
>>And quit pimping for China. Try to become an advocate for Canada
>>and its great peoples. Your fellow Cannucks expect that of you.
>>
>>--Vic
>
>
>Yoh Vic. That's not you. I'll let it pass.
It's me all right.
--Vic
Vic Smith
>On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:29:58 GMT, PaPaPeng <PaPa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>And quit pimping for China. Try to become an advocate for Canada
>>>and its great peoples. Your fellow Cannucks expect that of you.
>>>
>>>--Vic
>>
>>
>>Yoh Vic. That's not you. I'll let it pass.
>
>
>Okay. The article below is fair comment. Pick it apart bone by bone
>if you want to. The better argument, supported by valid evidence, wins
>the day. No problemo.
>
Hey, I'm not about to get in some long-winded debate about this.
You're too sensitive about any criticism about China.
I just told you my take, which is China is neither good nor bad, but
it's China. I'm not in China, nor do I care to pimp for China.
I'm a pimp for America, despite the many things I wish were different.
If I was a Canadian I'd pimp for Canada, not China like you do.
If you posted from China I could ignore you as another just another
pimp from China.
Anyway, how the hell did I get involved with a crazy Cannuck Chinaman
like you?
>I have only one position to defend. Don't tar a whole country, its
>peoples and its culture. I know far more about the US than you will
>ever know about China. Lets not do mud slinging.
>
I agree with that. But the article you post below shows why China
is looked at with skepticism in regard to food safety. And that has
nothing to do with the people or culture, but the government and the
changing times.
--Vic
gjensen
partial finger amputation and Playskool Sippy Cups; Poses Choking
Hazard To Young Children http://www.familiesonlinemagazine.com/todaysfamilyforum/viewforum.php?f=19
On Jul 13, 2:04 pm, max <betat...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> This isn't rocket science, but on the other hand, most people aren't rocket
> scientists either, so...
>
> This whole China Poison Train dustup is a bit of a double edged sword, after
> a fashion.
>
> On the one hand, the international community is filled with a mix of
> shadenfreude and horror at the revelations of the utterly unsatisfactory
> practices of *some* Chinese food manufacturers, and by extension, non food
> manufacturers. "We" find our dismissals of Chinese products as worthless
> cheap crap vindicated on a daily basis.
>
> The Cheap Crap criticism has been almost the last buttress we have against
> Chinese products -- you can by chinese junk, or you can buy good (American)
> products.
>
> The net effect of the current dustup will be a Darwinian improvement of
> quality of Chinese products, and this will further pressure American
> manufacturers, who still won't be able to compete on a labor cost basis.
>
> Remember, we used to dismiss Japanese products with almost exactly the same
> criticisms in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The next five years are likely to
> see a quantum leap in aggregate Chinese quality. We already have some damn
> fine Chinese made products on the market, and the number is about to get
> significantly bigger.
>
> The Chinese should improve their product safety and quality, and we will be
> fools if we think that won't happen, and bigger fools if we don't forsee the
> long range consequences to our balance of trade.
>
> .max
D.
bun story that was so popular a few weeks ago was totally fabricated.
The Chinese authorities are now holding a reporter who made the whole
story up "to increase circulation" at the paper.
Personally, I was quite insistent that the story was true, and I'd
like to apologize right here and now for my little part in pushing
that story forward. I'm going to correct my statements on my personal
blog, as well.
It seems that China has some lessons to learn about the daily news,
though. It would be hard to trust what you read in that kind of
environment. You have a Communist government limiting your exposure to
certain stories on one hand, and on the other, you have unscrupulous
reporters who will print anything they want in order to sell a few
more copies.
It really is the wild west over there.
Dave
Rod Speed
throwitout
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:04:30 -0500, max <betat...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Remember, we used to dismiss Japanese products with almost exactly the same
> >criticisms in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The next five years are likely to
> >see a quantum leap in aggregate Chinese quality. We already have some damn
> >fine Chinese made products on the market, and the number is about to get
> >significantly bigger.
>
> >The Chinese should improve their product safety and quality, and we will be
> >fools if we think that won't happen, and bigger fools if we don't forsee the
> >long range consequences to our balance of trade.
>
> >.max
>
> pays for. The majority of Chinese manufacturers do not spend anything
> on product design or the promotion of its own brand identity. For
> mission critical products like airplane parts, major engineering
> components they have to meet specifications before that can be
> incorporated into the final manufacturers equipment - airplane parts,
> major US auto parts, tractors, MRI equipment and medical diagnostic,
> office equipmenet such as photocopiers and printers. You don't hear
> complaints about the quality of these products. For low end consumer
> products again its the importer who does the design and the marketing
> for which they reap $900 out of the $1000 ticket price, the China
> manufacturer getting only $100. You get what you pay for. There is
> nothing worng with Chinese ability to make quality products. There
> will come a time in the near future when the Chinese will promote
> their own branded products for which they will put their name and
> reputation behind their products. This will cut out the US middleman.
> Then you will have real cause to complain about Made in China and it
> won't be about quality. Then you will have to fight for a share of
> that $100 instead of $900.
I once worked for a firm making automotive parts. One of our suppliers
was Chinese. The stuff they were sending us, claiming to meet our
spec, was so far out of spec it wasn't funny. A trip to the plant
reveled no quality control, or concern for worker safety.
It seems the only way you can have a quality product from China is if
the plant is run by a company based out of a country that cares about
quality.