"Are Teachers Overpaid?" by Mr. Tamim Ansary
leno...@yahoo.com
would be fun to rerun it. (I can't find a working link, though.)
Are Teachers Overpaid?
Some people think teachers are overpaid. Some think they are
underpaid.
Who's right? Encarta columnist Tamim Ansary explores the debate.
Are Teachers Overpaid?
by Tamim Ansary
Some people think teachers are overpaid--I get e-mail about it all the
time. Other people think teachers are underpaid. I get a lot of that e-
mail too.
I was going to weigh in with my own opinion when I realized I
couldn't, because I didn't know how much teachers make--or how much
anyone else makes, for that matter, except for a few well-known CEOs
and sports stars.
I said to myself, "Get some facts before shooting your mouth off,
Tamim." (I learned that from a teacher.)
Lucky for me, the American Federation of Teachers (AFT) researches
salary issues. I found their Web site, and here's what they report:
The average American public school teacher, kindergarten through high
school, makes $44,367.*
Salaries vary from state to state, with South Dakota coming in last at
$31,383 a year, and California leading the way at $54,348.
Is $44,367 a lot, or a little? I couldn't tell, so I dug up salary
averages for a few other professions. Here's how they stack up:
[table deleted; see link]
I can hear some of you out there saying, "Sure, teachers make less
than doctors, big deal. Isn't that fair?" Underpaid, overpaid, it only
means something in comparison to how much a person should be paid,
right?
But that's a big can of worms. How much "should" anyone be paid? And
how do we judge "should"?
Part II: What teachers deserve
Is any line of work entitled to a particular level of compensation? On
what basis? Are there objective criteria?
I can think of three:
* The amount of training needed for the job
* The all-around difficulty of the work
* The value of the product or service to society
If you use these criteria, doctors deserve tons of money. Their job
requires endless schooling followed by a brutal internship...and they
save lives. What could be more important than that?
Carpet installers, by contrast, don't necessarily need a college
degree, although they do need training and practical experience. If
they're good at what they do, their carpets look smooth and stay put--
an important and necessary skill, but it's not saving lives. No wonder
doctors make more.
I think teachers are more like doctors when it comes to the amount of
training needed for the job. Teachers need four years of college and
at least one more for a teaching certificate, or two more for a
master's degree. Even then, in many states, teachers have to keep
taking summer courses to hold onto their jobs. The requirements vary,
but in California, for example, teachers are required to clock 150
hours of course work over five years --which they take in the summer,
usually, and must pay for themselves.
In fact, teachers need about the same amount of training as
architects, engineers, and accountants.
Part III: Hard work or hardly working?
I think a lot of the "overpaid teachers" talk comes from the notion
that teachers' hours match up with students' hours: Put in six hours a
day, head home around 2 PM, and take summers off. Compared to most
jobs, that's scarcely working, right?
Hello--news flash! Classroom time is only the tip of the pencil for a
teacher. No one just walks into a roomful of kids without a plan and
keeps them fruitfully occupied for six hours at a stretch, day after
day. Lesson plans have to be drawn up. There go your weekends.
Then there's homework. If you have 25 kids in your class, and each one
turns in one page of homework a day, you have 25 pages to read and
mark before tomorrow. There go your evenings.
Furthermore, you have meetings to attend--with other teachers,
curriculum experts, administrators, and parents. Plus, when kids bring
their life problems into the classroom--and they're human, so they do--
who ends up dealing with them? That's right, the teacher. It's not in
the job description, but a teacher's obligations inevitably overlap
with those of social workers, therapists, and even parents.
In his book Small Victories, journalist Samuel Freedman followed New
York City high school teacher Jessica Siegel around for a year to see
what she actually did, and he found that this teacher put in more than
60 hours per week at her job. It's anecdotal evidence, and maybe
Siegal is unusual. But every teacher I talked to felt his or her work
week extended way past 40 hours. Indeed, a national survey conducted
by the Department of Education showed that teachers spend an average
of 45 hours a week doing their jobs.
Want to Learn More?
What makes a great teacher great?
The National Education Association offers information about hot
educational and legislative issues related to teaching.
Saving civilization
Which brings us to our third criterion. How valuable is the
contribution teachers make to humanity?
Never mind Mr. Holland's Opus. Forget individual cases. Let's consider
the teaching profession as a whole. If doctors save lives, what do
teachers do?
Well, let's see. Everything we call civilization has to be passed on
to the next generation. Isn't that what teachers do? Reading, writing,
adding 26 plus 13, calculating the boiling point of water and naming
the vitamins found in carrots, explaining the difference between
Turkey and turkey--none of this stuff is in the genes.
Without teachers, civilization would have to be developed from scratch
every generation, and man, you can't get too far in one generation.
We'd still be listening to eight-track tapes. We wouldn't even have
cars! Well, I guess we'd have our parents' cars, but we wouldn't know
how to drive them!
So yeah, I guess teaching is important work. On a scale from one to
ten, let's give it a nine. (Saving lives has still got to rank
higher.)
One ballplayer equals 100 teachers? According to the latest edition of
Jobs Rated Almanac, the highest-paid professionals in America are NBA
basketball players. They average $4,637,825 a year.
In other words, an NBA player makes about 100 times as much as a
teacher.
If service to humanity counts, why should ballplayers make millions
while teachers scrape by on a few measly tens of thousands? What do
basketball players contribute that's more important than transferring
the contents of civilization to the next generation?
Good question, but only because it illustrates an important truth
about the compensation for any job. Clint Eastwood said it best in his
movie Unforgiven: "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."
Part IV: Why teachers make less than lawyers
The amount of clout is what it's all about.
In America, teachers started out in a hole dating back to the 19th
century. Back then, most schoolteachers were women, and women who
worked professionally outside the home were mostly teachers (or
nurses) because other careers were closed to them.
Those women were offered low wages on the assumption that they were
not breadwinners supporting families. In fact, single teachers were
generally assumed to be clocking time while they waited to get
married. Those who kept working after marriage were thought to be
making "extra income," which justified paying them what amounted to
pin money.
Since their options were limited, they had to accept what they were
offered. Thus, the prevailing wage for teachers started out low.
Meet and submit
In 1948, when the AFT ran its first salary survey, teachers were
making less than $3,000 a year--which is equivalent to maybe $16,000
today.
Unlike plumbers, bus drivers, and truckers, teachers had no right to
engage in collective bargaining. Instead, they went through a process
called "meet and converse," which meant they would meet with their
school board and discuss what they needed. Then they would go away,
and the school board would decide what to give them.
But in 1961, a math teacher named Albert Shanker kick-started massive
changes in educator compensation. As head of a professional
association called the United Federation of Teachers, he called a
controversial teachers' strike in New York City.
The rise of clout
That strike gave birth to one of America's major trade union
movements. Over the next 15 years, teachers won the right to
collective bargaining state by state. As unions took over salary
negotiations, teachers' incomes began to rise rapidly.
Today, 80 percent of teachers belong to one of two large unions, the
National Educational Association and the American Federation of
Teachers, or their local affiliates. If the two unions were to merge,
as has been discussed, they would form the largest trade union in
America.
Today, teachers' unions swing a heavy stick in national politics. They
rank near the top in political contributions, mostly to Democratic
candidates. Clout is no longer the problem for teachers--as a group,
they've got it.
According to Judy Thomas, Director of Research for the California
Teachers Association, teachers go on strike only as a last resort, in
part because strikes are traumatic and tend to divide a faculty for
years.
Slicing the pie
But the last resort has been reached frequently. The nation has seen
hundreds of teacher strikes in the last 25 years. School boards, the
opposing party in a teacher strike, don't necessarily believe teachers
are overpaid. They believe schools are underfunded. The size of the
pie is out of their hands, though: They can only divide up what they
have.
Want to Learn More?
The secret to success in school: A former teacher tells all.
The teacher-student connection: Can it make kids smarter?
About half the budget of a typical school district now goes to
teachers. Other employees get 30 to 35 percent. They include
administrators, but also janitors, secretaries, cafeteria workers,
school nurses, teachers aides, and so on. Well, schools can't run
without those folks either. If teachers get more, the others must get
less. Or else the money must come out of the budget for books,
supplies, maintenance, lights, and water.
A bigger pie
The other alternative would be for schools to get more money.
But where would that come from? Taxes, mostly. Other sources of public
school funding are negligible--always have been, always will be.
In California, about 7 percent of the budget comes from renting out
school property and the like. An even smaller amount comes from the
state lottery, an increasingly common funding device that was
pioneered in California. Today, the lottery provides 2 percent of
school costs in California. But it isn't the answer. The bulk of the
money for schools--91 percent, in fact--comes from state, local, and
federal taxes.
Want to Learn More?
Get online training for a new career at Encarta's Career Training
Center.
Research jobs, salaries, and other work stuff on MSN Careers.
If teachers are to get more money, citizens must pay more taxes.
That's the bottom line. And a powerful current in American political
life has been a demand for lower taxes.
If you start with the premise "taxes are too high," the conclusion
"teachers are overpaid" is virtually automatic. The arguments about
why they're overpaid come after the fact. "You can't fix the schools
by throwing money at them," and its ilk are simply necessary fillers
to bolster the premise that taxes must be lowered.
But it's wishful thinking to suppose that we can have good schools
without paying teachers good salaries. Comparisons to the good old
days ignore the fact that times have changed. Back then, low wages
could secure top talent because half the population was restricted to
just two or three jobs, one of which was teaching. The best still had
to compete to be teachers, and only the best of the best got in.
Today, potential teachers--men or women--have so many other options
that it's the teaching profession that must compete, against other
lines of work, to reel in the top talents. Otherwise, instead of
teaching, those top talents might choose to be...
Well, let's see: police officers, accountants, department store
buyers, architects, computer systems analysts, engineers, attorneys,
professors, or doctors, for example.
Check page one to see what that comes out to in dollars.
(end)
Lenona.
clams_casino
>I posted the link for this in 2003, found it again, and thought it
>would be fun to rerun it. (I can't find a working link, though.)
>
>
>Are Teachers Overpaid?
>
>Some people think teachers are overpaid. Some think they are
>underpaid.
>
>
>
It depends entirely on where one lives. Length of service is another
critical factor where salaries tend to start low, but increase rapidly
with years experience - much faster than other occupations.
In RI, it's not unusual for teachers to receive over $80k /yr in salary
plus benefits ($60 +/hr) for a 180-190 day work year (averaging 40%
above the average salary in the state) . Teachers do commonly work over
time, but what white collar professional doesn't?
The chemists / engineers / business professionals I know (comparable
educational backgrounds) commonly work 50 hr weeks with just 2-4 weeks
vacation without the fully or essentially fully paid medical benefits
typical for teachers for similar wages..
What white collar professional would not like 10-12 weeks vacation / yr
included in that salary?
http://cspf.awardspace.com/education_partnership_chariho_co.htm
The Real Bev
Moreover, those people actually produce useful output -- if they don't,
they get fired. Given the state of K-12 education in California, the
only thing most teachers produce is shit. Really expensive shit.
--
Cheers,
Bev
================================================================
"Everything sucks; reverse the wires and everything will blow."
-- Desert Ed
terryc
> Moreover, those people actually produce useful output -- if they don't,
> they get fired. Given the state of K-12 education in California, the
> only thing most teachers produce is shit. Really expensive shit.
Guess that comes back to the school board doesn't it?
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
Marsha
Ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.
Marsha/Ohio
terryc
Yep, always trotted out when people screw up as someone else to point the
finger at. correct me where I am wrong, the school board employs the
teachers?, the school board has performance criteria in place, the school
board has review and assessment criteria in place?, the school board can
thus dismiss and under performming teacher?, but the school board doesn't.
Oh and is the school board elected by the parents?
>
> Marsha/Ohio
Rod Speed
> I posted the link for this in 2003, found it again, and thought it
> would be fun to rerun it. (I can't find a working link, though.)
> Are Teachers Overpaid?
> Some people think teachers are overpaid.
> Some think they are underpaid.
True of every field.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
the unions hold them hostage with threats of walkouts. and then they walk
out.
has happened all over the country. imo, teachers are overpaid. just look
at
the crap they put out, and then, because of the unions, they can't be fired.
i
remember one case where the union actually fought to keep some sort of
sex offender as a teacher. don't remember the outcome, but it proves the
point.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
parents,
but by the voting public; not the same thing.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
the only way to fix it is to attach the money to the backpack. when it
packs out,
so do the benjamins. but the unions are fighting voucher because they know
that
their crappy teachers will be out of a job and then the union dues will dry
up and
their high and mighty leaders might have to come back and rut in the mud.
The Real Bev
If the school board is responsible for letting them unionize, then yes.
Maybe yes anyway, ours is pretty damn dumb and has been for quite a while.
--
Cheers, Bev
-----------------------------------------
"Not everyone can be above average so why
shouldn't we be the ones to suck?"
--Anonymous School Board Member
The Real Bev
> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:43:02 -0400, Marsha wrote:
>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>> "terryc" <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote
>>>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:23:45 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Moreover, those people actually produce useful output -- if they don't,
>>>>> they get fired. Given the state of K-12 education in California, the
>>>>> only thing most teachers produce is shit. Really expensive shit.
>>>>
>>>> Guess that comes back to the school board doesn't it?
>>>
>>> unions
>>
>> Ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.
>
> Yep, always trotted out when people screw up as someone else to point the
> finger at. correct me where I am wrong, the school board employs the
> teachers?, the school board has performance criteria in place, the school
> board has review and assessment criteria in place?, the school board can
> thus dismiss and under performming teacher?, but the school board doesn't.
>
> Oh and is the school board elected by the parents?
Given your demonstration of writing skills, are you sure you want to
participate in this discussion?
OTOH, we're not the only ones in a handbasket-race to the bottom.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7546975.stm
Rod Speed
> terryc wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:43:02 -0400, Marsha wrote:
>>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>>> "terryc" <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote
>>>>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:23:45 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Moreover, those people actually produce useful output -- if they
>>>>>> don't, they get fired. Given the state of K-12 education in
>>>>>> California, the only thing most teachers produce is shit. Really expensive shit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guess that comes back to the school board doesn't it?
>>>>
>>>> unions
>>>
>>> Ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.
>>
>> Yep, always trotted out when people screw up as someone else to
>> point the finger at. correct me where I am wrong, the school board
>> employs the teachers?, the school board has performance criteria in
>> place, the school board has review and assessment criteria in
>> place?, the school board can thus dismiss and under performming
>> teacher?, but the school board doesn't. Oh and is the school board elected by the parents?
>
> Given your demonstration of writing skills, are you sure you want to
> participate in this discussion?
>
> OTOH, we're not the only ones in a handbasket-race to the bottom.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7546975.stm
There is no 'handbasket-race to the bottom'
And what matters gets done fine, regardless of the teachers.
Essentially because those that matter dont need teachers.
The Real Bev
It would be pretty to think so.
> And what matters gets done fine, regardless of the teachers.
>
> Essentially because those that matter dont need teachers.
What about the other 90%?
--
Cheers,
Bev
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them."
-- Lionel
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> OTOH, we're not the only ones in a handbasket-race to the bottom.
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7546975.stm
>> There is no 'handbasket-race to the bottom'
> It would be pretty to think so.
It aint about pretty.
>> And what matters gets done fine, regardless of the teachers.
>> Essentially because those that matter dont need teachers.
> What about the other 90%?
They do adequately even with the most pathetic teachers.
terryc
> What about the other 90%?
For those there is porn and sport at all levels and grades.
Ken Lay
"AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> but the unions are fighting voucher because they know that their
> crappy teachers will be out of a job and then the union dues will dry
> up and their high and mighty leaders might have to come back and rut
> in the mud.
And then all the crappy teachers will come out of the churches and
various religious cults. Great idea. Who needs public schools when the
religious are so good at raping their own kids' minds and bodies.
--
Everybody lies. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney just suck at it.
Ken Lay
"AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> and the school board in many places where i've lived isn't elected by
> the parents, but by the voting public; not the same thing.
Right, so parents don't get to vote in your town. Move, then. Love it or
leave it. You know, like at your church.
Ken Lay
"AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> the unions hold them hostage with threats of walkouts. and then
> they walk out. has happened all over the country. imo, teachers are
> overpaid. just look at the crap they put out, and then, because of
> the unions, they can't be fired. i remember one case where the union
> actually fought to keep some sort of sex offender as a teacher.
> don't remember the outcome, but it proves the point.
That's not the only thing you don't remember. You forgot how to tell the
truth.
Ron Peterson
> I posted the link for this in 2003, found it again, and thought it
> would be fun to rerun it. (I can't find a working link, though.)
> Are Teachers Overpaid?
According to AFT, the average teacher had a $47,602 salary in 2005
compared to $100,852 for attorneys.
Being a teacher is a good occupation compared to many unskilled jobs
and teachers are needed in all communities. In a college town, there
may not be enough teaching jobs to go around.
A stable family life with concerned parents will help children more
than the most expensive schools.
--
Ron
The Real Bev
Providing, of course, that there isn't an oversupply of drug dealers and
day laborers in their neighborhoods.
--
Cheers,
Bev
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"We need to cut more slack for the stupid; after all, somebody has
to populate the lower part of the bell curve." -- Dennis (evil)
The Real Bev
How many jobs are available in those fields? Way smaller number than
the number of hopeless losers who figured that's what they'd do when
they grew up.
terryc
> terryc wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:51:12 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> What about the other 90%?
>>
>> For those there is porn and sport at all levels and grades.
>
> How many jobs are available in those fields? Way smaller number than
> the number of hopeless losers who figured that's what they'd do when
> they grew up.
Who is talking about jobs? I'm talking about the bread and circuses
routine as first started by the romans who dispossed the workers to
build large estates and then had to feed and entertain them to
prevent them from rioting.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> OTOH, we're not the only ones in a handbasket-race to the bottom.
>>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7546975.stm
>>>> There is no 'handbasket-race to the bottom'
>>> It would be pretty to think so.
>> It aint about pretty.
>>>> And what matters gets done fine, regardless of the teachers.
>>>> Essentially because those that matter dont need teachers.
>>> What about the other 90%?
>> They do adequately even with the most pathetic teachers.
> Providing, of course, that there isn't an oversupply of drug dealers and day laborers in their neighborhoods.
They dont need any teachers in schools to tell them how to handle that situation.
Rod Speed
>> The Real Bev wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> And what matters gets done fine, regardless of the teachers.
>>>> Essentially because those that matter dont need teachers.
>>> What about the other 90%?
>> For those there is porn and sport at all levels and grades.
> How many jobs are available in those fields? Way smaller number than the number of hopeless losers who figured that's
> what they'd do when they grew up.
Even the hopelessly inadequate teachers do manage
to teach even those how to read and watch TV etc.
Stephanie
Idiocracy.
The Real Bev
Well, there's welfare and food stamps, of course, but any entertainment
provided by the government is strictly accidental and probably not even
noticed by the welfare recipients.
Just supporting Social Security (available only to those who actually
worked for a living and some of their dependents) is an increasing
strain; keeping the rest of the unemployed from starving in the streets
without bankrupting the country has GOT to be a problem that Those In
Power ought to be thinking about.
--
Cheers, Bev
============================================================
Brian (Talking to crowd): You need to be independent minded.
Crowd: We are! We are!
Person in crowd: I'm not! -- Monty Python
The Real Bev
Don't be so sure about the reading. There's a not-negligible percentage
of functional illiterates in the USA. You don't have any of those?
Rod Speed
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:57:09 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>>> terryc wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:51:12 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What about the other 90%?
>>>>
>>>> For those there is porn and sport at all levels and grades.
>>>
>>> How many jobs are available in those fields? Way smaller number
>>> than the number of hopeless losers who figured that's what they'd
>>> do when they grew up.
>>
>> Who is talking about jobs? I'm talking about the bread and circuses
>> routine as first started by the romans who dispossed the workers to
>> build large estates and then had to feed and entertain them to
>> prevent them from rioting.
>
> Well, there's welfare and food stamps, of course, but any
> entertainment provided by the government is strictly accidental and
> probably not even noticed by the welfare recipients.
> Just supporting Social Security (available only to those who actually
> worked for a living and some of their dependents) is an increasing
> strain; keeping the rest of the unemployed from starving in the
> streets without bankrupting the country has GOT to be a problem that
> Those In Power ought to be thinking about.
Nope, not when the unemployment rate is only 5.x%
At that rate, anyone who isnt grossly disabled who doesnt want to
starve can always get a job, even if it may not be a job they like much.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> terryc wrote
>>>> The Real Bev wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> And what matters gets done fine, regardless of the teachers.
>>>>>> Essentially because those that matter dont need teachers.
>>>>> What about the other 90%?
>>>> For those there is porn and sport at all levels and grades.
>>> How many jobs are available in those fields? Way smaller number than the number of hopeless losers who figured
>>> that's what they'd do when they grew up.
>> Even the hopelessly inadequate teachers do manage
>> to teach even those how to read and watch TV etc.
> Don't be so sure about the reading.
I know they do.
> There's a not-negligible percentage of functional illiterates in the USA.
Functional illiterates are that way not because of any deficiency of the teachers.
> You don't have any of those?
Nope, not anymore. We used to have some, and even they can be taught to read if they want to read.
We do have a few that dont bother, just like we have hordes of
imigrants that dont bother to speak the language or read english.
The Real Bev
> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>
>>> Even the hopelessly inadequate teachers do manage
>>> to teach even those how to read and watch TV etc.
>
>> Don't be so sure about the reading.
>
> I know they do.
>
>> There's a not-negligible percentage of functional illiterates in the USA.
>
> Functional illiterates are that way not because of any deficiency of the teachers.
It's the job of the educational system to educate ALL of the children,
not just the ones who want to be educated.
>> You don't have any of those?
>
> Nope, not anymore. We used to have some, and even they can be taught to read if they want to read.
>
> We do have a few that dont bother, just like we have hordes of
> imigrants that dont bother to speak the language or read english.
The problem is what to do with children who have no parental incentive
to do well in school and end up at 18 with no skills at all, including
the ability to read. Right now crime seems to be the only career option
unless the kid has some talent for sports or the kind of music that the
Great Unwashed like. The number of jobs available to the totally
unskilled are vanishingly few, especially since the illegals seem to be
far more eager to take those jobs than our home-grown louts. We can't
kill them, at least not all of them, and we can't jail all of them either.
The only hope for such kids is the public schools, and they're failing.
If their job is to deal with what might be considered disposable
children, they're failing miserably.
Any ideas?
--
Cheers,
Bev
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Rats cry when they hear about my life." -- Dilbert
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Even the hopelessly inadequate teachers do manage
>>>> to teach even those how to read and watch TV etc.
>>> Don't be so sure about the reading.
>> I know they do.
>>> There's a not-negligible percentage of functional illiterates in the USA.
>> Functional illiterates are that way not because of any deficiency of the teachers.
> It's the job of the educational system to educate ALL of the children,
Yes, and they do that as far as reading is concerned with all but the absolute dregs now.
> not just the ones who want to be educated.
Yes, but it isnt just those who want to be educated that end up being able to read and use a calculator etc.
>>> You don't have any of those?
>> Nope, not anymore. We used to have some, and even they can be taught to read if they want to read.
>> We do have a few that dont bother, just like we have hordes of
>> imigrants that dont bother to speak the language or read english.
> The problem is what to do with children who have no parental incentive to do well in school and end up at 18 with no
> skills at all, including the ability to read.
I dont believe that there is enough of those to matter anymore.
> Right now crime seems to be the only career option unless the kid has some talent for sports or the kind of music that
> the Great Unwashed like.
Yep, that is where most of them end up, but thats got nothing to do
with the teachers, everything to do with the 'society' they are part of.
> The number of jobs available to the totally unskilled are vanishingly few,
Thats just plain wrong. You dont even need to be able to read to collect the garbage etc.
> especially since the illegals seem to be far more eager to take those jobs than our home-grown louts.
Yes, most of them prefer crime instead. Its always been that way. Nothing to do with the teachers.
> We can't kill them, at least not all of them, and we can't jail all of them either.
You do jail a hell of a lot of them and you can always teach them
to read there where they dont have anything else useful to do.
> The only hope for such kids is the public schools,
Not when most of them end up in jail regardless of what you do about teachers in public schools.
> and they're failing.
No evidence that they are.
And nothing you can do about those who prefer a 'life' of crime anyway.
> If their job is to deal with what might be considered disposable children,
No one has ever been able to work out how to do that.
The best prospect with those is to teach them in jail given that you lot are
prepared to spend the immense amount of money required to keep them in jail.
> they're failing miserably.
Yes, but so does the education system everywhere else too.
> Any ideas?
I've always been in favour of the approach the chinese use, bullet
in the back of the neck and send the bill for the bullet to the 'parents'
I doubt even McBush has the balls to propose that tho.
So you get to wear the immense cost of keeping them in jail and might as well
attempt to teach them to read if they cant read already when they are in there.
Not that will make a blind bit of difference to their prospects. Which
is why I personally favor the bullet in the back of the neck instead.
Worth doing that with the 'parents' too, so you dont have to wear the
downsides that are inevitable when they pump out even more the same.
Tho sterilisation might well be a tad more politically acceptible with them.
The Real Bev
> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>
>>>>> Even the hopelessly inadequate teachers do manage to teach
>>>>> even those how to read and watch TV etc.
>
>>>> Don't be so sure about the reading.
>
>>> I know they do.
>
>>>> There's a not-negligible percentage of functional illiterates
>>>> in the USA.
>
>>> Functional illiterates are that way not because of any deficiency
>>> of the teachers.
>
>> It's the job of the educational system to educate ALL of the
>> children,
>
> Yes, and they do that as far as reading is concerned with all but the
> absolute dregs now.
What do you suggest we do with those absolute dregs? They probably
won't disembowel themselves...
>> not just the ones who want to be educated.
>
> Yes, but it isnt just those who want to be educated that end up being
> able to read and use a calculator etc.
>
>>>> You don't have any of those?
>
>>> Nope, not anymore. We used to have some, and even they can be
>>> taught to read if they want to read.
>
>>> We do have a few that dont bother, just like we have hordes of
>>> imigrants that dont bother to speak the language or read english.
>
>> The problem is what to do with children who have no parental
>> incentive to do well in school and end up at 18 with no skills at
>> all, including the ability to read.
>
> I dont believe that there is enough of those to matter anymore.
It depends on where you live. Los Angeles has quite a few -- enough to
matter significantly if you happen to be one of their victims.
>> Right now crime seems to be the only career option unless the kid
>> has some talent for sports or the kind of music that the Great
>> Unwashed like.
>
> Yep, that is where most of them end up, but thats got nothing to do
> with the teachers, everything to do with the 'society' they are part
> of.
Society hires teachers to do the job that some parents don't. Teachers
aren't drafted, they choose the career. They signed up for the WHOLE
thing, not just the fun part. There were some news stories about people
who joined the National Guard but were outraged that they were actually
expected to pick up a gun and go to Iraq. Same thing.
>> The number of jobs available to the totally unskilled are
>> vanishingly few,
>
> Thats just plain wrong. You dont even need to be able to read to
> collect the garbage etc.
Are you kidding? Garbage collectors are unionized and are quite well
paid. Our locals drive automated garbage trucks, so they have to be
able to at least read well enough to pass the driver's license test.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_garbage_collector_earn
>> especially since the illegals seem to be far more eager to take
>> those jobs than our home-grown louts.
>
> Yes, most of them prefer crime instead. Its always been that way.
> Nothing to do with the teachers.
>
>> We can't kill them, at least not all of them, and we can't jail all
>> of them either.
>
> You do jail a hell of a lot of them and you can always teach them to
> read there where they dont have anything else useful to do.
Apparently they can also learn to be better criminals. Carjackers can
learn to pick locks, for instance. There are all kinds of opportunities.
>> The only hope for such kids is the public schools,
>
> Not when most of them end up in jail regardless of what you do about
> teachers in public schools.
Surprise. Nobody is doing anything about teachers in public schools.
They're unionized and their main concern is keeping their jobs and
getting better pay.
>> and they're failing.
>
> No evidence that they are.
>
> And nothing you can do about those who prefer a 'life' of crime
> anyway.
Possibly, but I'm not willing to believe that that preference is present
at birth.
>> If their job is to deal with what might be considered disposable
>> children,
>
> No one has ever been able to work out how to do that.
Then throwing money at the problem isn't likely to solve it, is it?
Still, that's what the teachers keep claiming -- There isn't enough
money to do a good job. Do we really believe that they WILL do a good
job if we just pay them more? Yeah, right.
> The best prospect with those is to teach them in jail given that you
> lot are prepared to spend the immense amount of money required to
> keep them in jail.
What makes you think that teachers willing to work in jails are any more
competent than the others?
>> they're failing miserably.
>
> Yes, but so does the education system everywhere else too.
Not as badly, apparently. The US is becoming (or has become) a
third-world country as far as K-12 education goes. Sure there are
pockets of excellence, but they're few and far between and generally
pretty well-heeled.
>> Any ideas?
>
> I've always been in favour of the approach the chinese use, bullet in
> the back of the neck and send the bill for the bullet to the
> 'parents'
Kind of overkill for shoplifting...
> I doubt even McBush has the balls to propose that tho.
>
> So you get to wear the immense cost of keeping them in jail and might
> as well attempt to teach them to read if they cant read already when
> they are in there.
We already do that, and sometimes it works.
> Not that will make a blind bit of difference to their prospects.
> Which is why I personally favor the bullet in the back of the neck
> instead.
>
> Worth doing that with the 'parents' too, so you dont have to wear the
> downsides that are inevitable when they pump out even more the same.
> Tho sterilisation might well be a tad more politically acceptible
> with them.
The US used to do that. All things considered, it's probably a better
alternative than a lot of others. Did you know that welfare recipients
may actually be entitled to free fertility treatments?
--
Cheers,
Bev
MSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMSMS
FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION. It comes bundled with the software.
terryc
> Don't be so sure about the reading. There's a not-negligible percentage
> of functional illiterates in the USA. You don't have any of those?
We do, but usually when you enquire, it was more a lack of a tacher that
was the problem (intinerant parents usually), but some do have learning
difficulties, which any non-stressed competent teacher will pick up and
correct.
Frankly, a bit problem is parents. If they care about their child and ask
questions, problems are usualu overcome. it is the children of parents who
really don't give a toss, that sometimes fall through the cracks.
The alltime classic excuse from a mother about her child not being able to
read or write "he can always get a job as a horse breaker like his
father". Sheesh, the teacher was trying to help, but he needed someone to
sit down at home and listen to him read for the extra practise and she
wasn't prepared to do that.
terryc
> It's the job of the educational system to educate ALL of the children,
> not just the ones who want to be educated.
1. So you thin the government should tell you what you should think?
2. Thats lets the teachers off then as it is "the educaion system" that is
failing and not the teachers.
FFS, most parents take an active part in their childrens education from
the moment they are born.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>>> Even the hopelessly inadequate teachers do manage to teach even those how to read and watch TV etc.
>>>>> Don't be so sure about the reading.
>>>> I know they do.
>>>>> There's a not-negligible percentage of functional illiterates in the USA.
>>>> Functional illiterates are that way not because of any deficiency of the teachers.
>>> It's the job of the educational system to educate ALL of the children,
>> Yes, and they do that as far as reading is concerned with all but the absolute dregs now.
> What do you suggest we do with those absolute dregs?
Like I said, bullet in the back of the neck and send the bill for the bullet to the 'parent'
If you lot dont have the balls for that, keep jailing them like you currently do when they break the law.
> They probably won't disembowel themselves...
And I doubt even the best teachers would do much good at teaching them how to do that.
It takes a class of teacher like the Japs have had for centurys to be able to do that successfully.
Not much point in importing those either, their english is lousy and almost completely incomprehensible.
Most of the dregs have AIDS as a result of their IV drug use too, so it could get messy with all that blood and gore
around.
>>> not just the ones who want to be educated.
>> Yes, but it isnt just those who want to be educated that end up being able to read and use a calculator etc.
>>>>> You don't have any of those?
>>>> Nope, not anymore. We used to have some, and even they can be taught to read if they want to read.
>>>> We do have a few that dont bother, just like we have hordes of
>>>> imigrants that dont bother to speak the language or read english.
>>> The problem is what to do with children who have no parental
>>> incentive to do well in school and end up at 18 with no skills at
>>> all, including the ability to read.
>> I dont believe that there is enough of those to matter anymore.
> It depends on where you live.
Nope.
> Los Angeles has quite a few
Nope, fuck all of them cant read.
> -- enough to matter significantly if you happen to be one of their victims.
Why, because they cant read your sign, 'please dont attack me, I'm a cripple' ?
>>> Right now crime seems to be the only career option unless the kid has some talent for sports or the kind of music
>>> that the Great Unwashed like.
>> Yep, that is where most of them end up, but thats got nothing to do
>> with the teachers, everything to do with the 'society' they are part of.
> Society hires teachers to do the job that some parents don't.
And no teachers do any good with the absolute dregs that dont see any point in being able to read.
> Teachers aren't drafted, they choose the career. They signed up for the WHOLE thing, not just the fun part.
No teachers do any good with the absolute dregs that dont see any point in being able to read.
Even the military has never managed to do anything with those absolute
dregs even when they could execute them if they didnt learn.
> There were some news stories about people who joined the National Guard but were outraged that they were actually
> expected to pick up a gun and go to Iraq. Same thing.
Nope, nothing like the same thing.
No teachers do any good with the absolute dregs that dont see any point in being able to read.
Even the military has never managed to do anything with those absolute
dregs even when they could execute them if they didnt learn.
>>> The number of jobs available to the totally unskilled are vanishingly few,
>> Thats just plain wrong. You dont even need to be able to read to collect the garbage etc.
> Are you kidding?
Nope.
> Garbage collectors are unionized and are quite well paid.
They're still totally unskilled and dont need to be able to read to join the union.
> Our locals drive automated garbage trucks,
So do ours.
> so they have to be able to at least read well enough to pass the driver's license test.
Nope, the immigrants who cant read the language manage to get licensed fine.
That does cause a few problems when they cant read the road signs, but they
do manage somehow, presumably by memorising the most important road signs.
> http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_garbage_collector_earn
Doesnt say that they need any 'skills'
Even the stupidest ape can learn how to drive a truck and
they clearly managed to work out how to drive a car too.
>>> especially since the illegals seem to be far more eager to take those jobs than our home-grown louts.
>> Yes, most of them prefer crime instead. Its always been that way.
>> Nothing to do with the teachers.
>>> We can't kill them, at least not all of them, and we can't jail all of them either.
>> You do jail a hell of a lot of them and you can always teach them to read there where they dont have anything else
>> useful to do.
> Apparently they can also learn to be better criminals. Carjackers can
> learn to pick locks, for instance. There are all kinds of opportunities.
Corse they do. So you can teach them to read if you want to.
If they dont learn, they dont eat etc.
>>> The only hope for such kids is the public schools,
>> Not when most of them end up in jail regardless of what you do about teachers in public schools.
> Surprise. Nobody is doing anything about teachers in public schools.
> They're unionized and their main concern is keeping their jobs and getting better pay.
Even before that stuff happened, they still didnt manage to teach everyone to read.
>>> and they're failing.
>> No evidence that they are.
>> And nothing you can do about those who prefer a 'life' of crime anyway.
> Possibly, but I'm not willing to believe that that preference is present at birth.
It is with the worst of them, particularly the psychopaths.
And growing up in the environment they grow up in is enough with the rest.
Even the military never did manage to fix the worst of them, they just kick them out.
>>> If their job is to deal with what might be considered disposable children,
>> No one has ever been able to work out how to do that.
> Then throwing money at the problem isn't likely to solve it, is it?
Yep, thats why the bullet in the back of the neck is the only thing that works.
> Still, that's what the teachers keep claiming -- There isn't enough money to do a good job. Do we really believe that
> they WILL do a good job if we just pay them more? Yeah, right.
Just like every other union scam.
>> The best prospect with those is to teach them in jail given that you lot are prepared to spend the immense amount of
>> money required to keep them in jail.
> What makes you think that teachers willing to work in jails are any more competent than the others?
They arent, but they can at least ensure that they do attend.
Presumably a few will decide that they dont have anything better to do but learn to read.
In fact we know that some do learn to read in jail.
And that some who at one time couldnt see any point in learning to read when
in school change their mind when they get a bit older and have nothing else to do.
Not that I think there is any point in teaching them to
read, except that they will be able to read the signs etc.
>>> they're failing miserably.
>> Yes, but so does the education system everywhere else too.
> Not as badly, apparently. The US is becoming (or has become) a third-world country as far as K-12 education goes.
Thats just plain silly. Whoever claimed that has never
seen a real third world country's education system.
> Sure there are pockets of excellence, but they're few and far between and generally pretty well-heeled.
Sure, but the vast bulk of those that spend any time at all in them do end up being able to read.
>>> Any ideas?
>> I've always been in favour of the approach the chinese use, bullet in
>> the back of the neck and send the bill for the bullet to the 'parents'
> Kind of overkill for shoplifting...
Does have a 0% recidivism rate.
>> I doubt even McBush has the balls to propose that tho.
>> So you get to wear the immense cost of keeping them in jail and might as well attempt to teach them to read if they
>> cant read already when they are in there.
> We already do that, and sometimes it works.
It does indeed. So there isnt any point in hyperventilating about the teachers in the public schools.
Just send your rug rats to schools that do a decent job.
>> Not that will make a blind bit of difference to their prospects.
>> Which is why I personally favor the bullet in the back of the neck instead.
>> Worth doing that with the 'parents' too, so you dont have to wear the
>> downsides that are inevitable when they pump out even more the same.
>> Tho sterilisation might well be a tad more politically acceptible with them.
> The US used to do that.
It did indeed, and it wasnt alone in that either.
We were more into poisoning our's wells.
> All things considered, it's probably a better alternative than a lot of others.
Yep.
> Did you know that welfare recipients may actually be entitled to free fertility treatments?
Yep. Barking mad.
Simon
The dregs we are discussing dont.
terryc
> The dregs we are discussing dont.
True,but that it shouldn't be up to teachers to fix the situation.
max
terryc <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote:
the age-old aphorism appropriate to this situation sounds like "you can
lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
folk wisdom. wisdom. folksy.
--
This signature can be appended to your outgoing mesages. Many people include in
their signatures contact information, and perhaps a joke or quotation.
The Real Bev
> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 20:32:38 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> It's the job of the educational system to educate ALL of the children,
>> not just the ones who want to be educated.
>
> 1. So you thin the government should tell you what you should think?
Take a deep breath, close your eyes and relax for a minute. Now try to
explain exactly what led you to that conclusion.
> 2. Thats lets the teachers off then as it is "the educaion system" that is
> failing and not the teachers.
Right now the system is set up to protect the teachers rather than
educate the children.
> FFS, most parents take an active part in their childrens education from
> the moment they are born.
I'm not worried about those people. The problem kids are the ones
without caring parents and SOMEBODY has to take up the slack. Sometimes
even caring foster parents aren't enough, but there has to be SOME
institutional program to take care of the kids that nobody gives a shit
about.
The Real Bev
> terryc <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 15:53:41 +1000, Simon wrote:
>>
>> > The dregs we are discussing dont.
>>
>> True,but that it shouldn't be up to teachers to fix the situation.
>
> the age-old aphorism appropriate to this situation sounds like "you can
> lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
>
> folk wisdom. wisdom. folksy.
So what DO you do? Right now we just throw our aprons over our heads
and walk away. That's been working out really well, I understand.
max
The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> max wrote:
>
> > terryc <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 15:53:41 +1000, Simon wrote:
> >>
> >> > The dregs we are discussing dont.
> >>
> >> True,but that it shouldn't be up to teachers to fix the situation.
> >
> > the age-old aphorism appropriate to this situation sounds like "you can
> > lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
> >
> > folk wisdom. wisdom. folksy.
>
> So what DO you do? Right now we just throw our aprons over our heads
> and walk away. That's been working out really well, I understand.
Terminate parental rights at the first sign of trouble, make them (kids)
permanent wards of the state. Establish a series of remote educational
camps around the country and raise the children under the 24/7
supervision of the state. Garnish parents wages to partially offset
costs.
Second parental offense: sterilazation of both parents, remand custody
to the state.
If unwed parents: forced sterilazation at first intervention.
failing that: there's not a lot you can do. It's a free country, and
parents have the right to be shitty parents.
.max
max
The Real Bev <bashley1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> max wrote:
>
> > terryc <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 15:53:41 +1000, Simon wrote:
> >>
> >> > The dregs we are discussing dont.
> >>
> >> True,but that it shouldn't be up to teachers to fix the situation.
> >
> > the age-old aphorism appropriate to this situation sounds like "you can
> > lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
> >
> > folk wisdom. wisdom. folksy.
>
> So what DO you do? Right now we just throw our aprons over our heads
> and walk away. That's been working out really well, I understand.
actually, a few weeks ago i heard the Supt. of Chicago schools mention
some kind of school dorm-residency program for kids from particularly
bad home situations as something they're seriously looking into.
Rod Speed
>>>> The dregs we are discussing dont.
>>> True,but that it shouldn't be up to teachers to fix the situation.
>> the age-old aphorism appropriate to this situation sounds like "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him
>> drink".
>> folk wisdom. wisdom. folksy.
> So what DO you do?
Those with a clue dont send their kids to the worst of the public schools.
> Right now we just throw our aprons over our heads and walk away.
I dont have an apron personally.
> That's been working out really well, I understand.
What actually happens is that the group prone to doing that stuff end up
in jail in numbers that have essentially replaced college for that group.
Least that does keep them off the streets.
Rather an expensive approach tho, but the US can certainly afford that.
Rod Speed
> terryc wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 20:32:38 -0700, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> It's the job of the educational system to educate ALL of the
>>> children, not just the ones who want to be educated.
>>
>> 1. So you thin the government should tell you what you should think?
>
> Take a deep breath, close your eyes and relax for a minute. Now try
> to explain exactly what led you to that conclusion.
>
>> 2. Thats lets the teachers off then as it is "the educaion system"
>> that is failing and not the teachers.
>
> Right now the system is set up to protect the teachers rather than
> educate the children.
>
>> FFS, most parents take an active part in their childrens education
>> from the moment they are born.
>
> I'm not worried about those people. The problem kids are the ones
> without caring parents and SOMEBODY has to take up the slack.
The jails and juvenile institutions do.
> Sometimes even caring foster parents aren't enough, but there has to be SOME institutional program to take care of the
> kids that nobody gives a shit about.
Thats what the jails and juvenile institutions do.
terryc
> the age-old aphorism appropriate to this situation sounds like "you can
> lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
A lot of good teachers can convinve the horse that it needs to drink, but
sometimes those parents are a problem and just get in the way. somekids
manage to overcome this hinderance later in life.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
"terryc" <newssixs...@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.08.24....@woa.com.au...
we are graduating FUCKING IDIOTS!!!!!
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
"AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fonsk.658$Ro1.82@trnddc04...
no wait; they know how to fuck.
>
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
too much fucking and not enough studying.
Gary Heston
AllEmailDeletedImmediately <der...@hotmail.com> wrote:
But they _feel good_ about graduating, which has become the whole point
of what used to be our educational system. Actually teaching them anything
or challenging them to do better is discouraged.
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
Why is it that these days, the words "What idiot" are so frequently
followed by the words "at Microsoft"?