Re: Rodspeed, you think gift cards are barter that states are afraid will take off?
George Grapmam
> Lately, states have gotten wind of laying claim to all that money
> sitting in unused gift cards as a right, saying they are unclaimed
> property and should be put in public coiffures. Do you think maybe,
> just maybe, state governments are afraid of not only losing out on the
> money grab with those dormant cards, but could see that people will
> adapt bartering in the future more and need to put an end to that?
> Gift cards supposedly equal a dollar amount of goods/services. They
> can be traded, sold or redeemed maybe. People could create their own
> barter gift cards in the years to come with the help of places like
> Ebay , where as long as you can stay one step ahead of regulators, the
> law and internet service providers, you can sell anything or auction
> off anything. I have a theory that along with inflation, the
> government needs to keep people from getting real gains on debts the
> government issues by keeping them from finding marketplace values of
> common things easily. I know it sounds crazy, but citizens could very
> well figure out how to barter or construct underground economies and
> cut out the middle man government. How would we get groceries,
> gasoline and health care and pay for road tolls? Those things would
> eventually adapt the new currency methods that local economies or
> banks exchange in. Well, eventually the politicians that instituted
> all the laws and regulations in adherence with the revenue streams of
> taxes and fees would be booted out as commerce and currency
> revised.LOL. So, possibly, politicians do recognize that people can
> wake up and vote them out into private world competing against those
> underground, barter based markets.
I think about that whenever a value added tax is discussed.
By the way, many types of pre-paid products have breakage factored
in, meaning part of the product that is never redeemed.
Phone cards have expiration dates (there is some legitimacy to this
as otherwise the unused time remains on the books as a debit) and if the
card has less money remaining than to cost of a one minute call the
customers loses unless the card can be recharged.
Our local transit system ,BART, allows you to add fare to a card but
only from a single card so if you have two cards each with a dollar on
them you can only add time to one of them and have to put the other away
for another time.BART claims the technology does not allow this but the
race tracks allow you to combine multiple vouchers for a single new one.
Copper_water_oxygen
> I think about that whenever a value added tax is discussed.
> By the way, many types of pre-paid products have breakage factored
> in, meaning part of the product that is never redeemed.
> Phone cards have expiration dates (there is some legitimacy to this
> as otherwise the unused time remains on the books as a debit) and if the
> card has less money remaining than to cost of a one minute call the
> customers loses unless the card can be recharged.
> Our local transit system ,BART, allows you to add fare to a card but
> only from a single card so if you have two cards each with a dollar on
> them you can only add time to one of them and have to put the other away
> for another time.BART claims the technology does not allow this but the
> race tracks allow you to combine multiple vouchers for a single new one.
They probably are hedging their bets you will lose one of those cards.
Only a guess, but along with those rebates and extended warranties,
and breakage stats, our state and fed governments recognize that they
need to contain their expenditures or services with some easy control
methods like time expirations and wear and tear aspects to things. Can
you imagine if there are layoffs in government by the boatload in the
years to come? Government would not look like such a trough to feed
from by many points of view then.
Copper_water_oxygen
George Grapmam
Lost and misplaced cards are factored into their projections.
By the way, in most states the proceeds from uncased vouchers or
winning bets at race tracks revert to the state. On the other hand it id
very easy to cash them in CA as all tracks a simulcast facilities here
allow to you cash in tickets from any other facility in the state.
Rod Speed
> Lately, states have gotten wind of laying claim to all that money
> sitting in unused gift cards as a right, saying they are unclaimed
> property and should be put in public coiffures.
Whats a public coiffure ? W's haircut ? Presumably you mean coffers |-(
> Do you think maybe, just maybe, state governments are
> afraid of not only losing out on the money grab with those
> dormant cards, but could see that people will adapt
> bartering in the future more and need to put an end to that?
Nope, its just the usual attempt by govt to grab whatever it can lay its hands on.
They do it with inactive bank accounts too, so it cant have anything to do with barter.
> Gift cards supposedly equal a dollar amount of goods/services.
> They can be traded, sold or redeemed maybe. People could
> create their own barter gift cards in the years to come with
> the help of places like Ebay , where as long as you can stay
> one step ahead of regulators, the law and internet service
> providers, you can sell anything or auction off anything.
You can do that without bothering with cards. People have been doing it
for years now, swapping labor etc in areas that they are skilled in etc.
Its essentially an attempt to do an end run around the taxation system.
> I have a theory that along with inflation, the government needs to keep
> people from getting real gains on debts the government issues by
> keeping them from finding marketplace values of common things easily.
They can never really do that, most obviously
with gold and diamonds etc being used for that.
> I know it sounds crazy, but citizens could very well
> figure out how to barter or construct underground
> economies and cut out the middle man government.
Its more avoiding the taxation than cutting out the middle man.
The hippys have been doing that sort of thing for centurys now.
> How would we get groceries, gasoline and health care and pay
> for road tolls? Those things would eventually adapt the new
> currency methods that local economies or banks exchange in.
> Well, eventually the politicians that instituted all the laws and
> regulations in adherence with the revenue streams of taxes and
> fees would be booted out as commerce and currency revised.LOL.
Thats never going to happen, essentially because
most find the current system more convenient.
> So, possibly, politicians do recognize that people can
> wake up and vote them out into private world competing
> against those underground, barter based markets.
Nope, they realise that its never going to happen.
It didnt even come close in the 60s when it arguably did peak.
> I'll add that some small towns in New England have utilized local
> dollars as a means of pooling cooperation or stimulating growth.
> I believe the IRS tries to keep an eye on that kind of barter.
Yep, its obviously just an attempt to avoid taxation.
> like I have been reminded, all we have is our labor and materials
> from which to build economies and societies.You can put a person
> in jail for fixing some ones car for free or exchange for a good meal
> if the two parties agree on a contractual basis for such, but the state
> sure can oversee the tools and parts and place that the car repair
> happens with. Oh yeah, the state can control licenses too.
But can never do much about doing stuff for one of your neighbours for free etc.
Copper_water_oxygen
How do we get a government that spends with an aim of lifting all of
us up?
Rod Speed
> It is all about taxation.
Nope, its actually about an economy where the govt is close
to irrelevant except to limit the worse excesses of capitalism
like with monopolys and consumer safety etc.
> How do we get a government that spends with an aim of lifting all of us up?
Modern first world economys dont work like that.
Copper_water_oxygen
I am all for quitting work, going on strike if you will, and letting
government try to figure out how it can control people who will not
rebuild the machines, cut the grass, drive around aimlessly from
shopping mall to grave or follow them around looking for political
favors.
Rod Speed
The hippys have been doing that for centurys now.
It doesnt appeal to enough people to matter.
KarlMarx_MiddleClass_Ipod_HipHop
>
> The hippys have been doing that for centurys now.
> It doesnt appeal to enough people to matter.
You got that right.