Un-insulated water heater tank by woodstove!
Bill
bill...
Well I got to thinking... I have this nice woodstove which puts out a lot of
heat and it is always 80 to 100 degrees (F) next to the woodstove.
Is there some way I can use this heat to "pre-heat" the water going into my
hot water heater????
Well I came up with an idea and tried it out. It works!
I got a used 50 gallon water heater at a recycling center. Then removed the
sheet metal cover and removed the insulation. So now I had just a bare metal
50 gallon tank. I painted it black as in theory black absorbs heat better.
Then I placed this tank next to my woodstove. Then disconnected the cold
water going to my hot water heater and ran that to the bottom (drain)
connection on the tank by the woodstove. Then ran a pipe going out the top
of the tank by the woodstove to the cold water inlet of my electric hot
water heater. (Cold into the bottom, warm out the top.)
Note: My electric water heater is located on the other side of the wall next
to my woodstove.
After just a few hours, the water coming out of the top of the tank by the
wood stove was about 70 degrees. (The water from the city going into the
tank is 40 degrees F.) At this point the bottom of the tank felt cold and
the top was not cold.
The next morning, the entire tank was slightly warm.
Anyway I am now "pre-heating" the water going to my hot water heater. So
instead of my water heater having to heat up 40 degree water, it will only
need to heat up water which will be from 70-80 degrees. Perhaps warmer if I
have the woodstove going full blast and have not used any hot water for a
while. So should save some $$ on my electric bill.
Building code note: Now that I see this idea works, I'm going to install the
tank next to my woodstove to "code"* like a water heater tank would be. That
is drip pan, T&P valve, and strapped to wall for earthquakes. *I don't
suppose code covers anything like this? I also installed a valve and pipe to
outside for draining the tank.
Temperature and "steam" note: The temperature next to my woodstove never
gets above 115 degrees F. and water boils at 212 degrees. So no possibility
of steam being created.
Lawrence
that sound like its working and and I see no question here. One
application that I have seen is to use a wood boiler to heat all of
your hot water with a heat exchanger. It can also be used to heat the
entire house in several different ways.
Lee K
"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:654bunF...@mid.individual.net...
> my > hot water heater????
>
Just curious: why is it that you want to heat hot water?
ransley
Get gas if you can, my electric water heater was 50% of my electric
bill or 35$ a month, my gas tankless costs me now 6$ a month. I kept
the tank to preheat water also.
TKM
thing is also called a "tempering tank") also radiates heat back into your
space when the stove fire goes down and so the room should hold a more even
temperature. It's also an emergency water supply -- assuming you can get
the water in the tank out with no watter pressure if, for some reason the
main water supply fails.
Living on a farm many years ago, we had a similar arrangement. The
uninsulated hot water tank was placed next to the coal furnance to soak up
radiant heat and a loop of steel pipe went from the tank through the fire
box in the furnace to speed up the process. There was an auxiliary kerosene
heater also connected to the tank for heating water in the summertime.
TKM
ransley
If you have the time get another tank, put it outside with bypass
valves, when nightime temps are above incomming water temp let the
tank fill, the sun will heat it fast
Elmo
A friend decided to run the inlet water for his water heater past the
wood stove. Rather than having a tank there, he just ran a loop from
just before the heater inlet to the wood stove, created a
back-and-forth arrangement of copper pipe and elbows to fit the back
side of the stove and then back to the water heater. In the winter,
when the stove is running, the water gets pre-heated. In the summer,
it absorbs a little ambient temperature.
hchi...@hotmail.com
wrote:
Because water that doesn't contain heat is ice.
Besides, he said: "Anyway I am now "pre-heating" the water going to my
hot water heater."
If it is pre-heated, then the water heater IS a hot water heater,
smartass.
David Nebenzahl
Well, maybe a *warm* water heater. The linguistic redundancy ("hot water
heater") has always amused me, too.
Lee K
<hchi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ugequ3pakdkj9anpp...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:16:55 GMT, "Lee K" <lee_k...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:654bunF...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>> my > hot water heater????
>>>
>>
>>Just curious: why is it that you want to heat hot water?
>>
> Because water that doesn't contain heat is ice.
Very observant. How does that relate to my question? Nothing was said
about heating ice water, just heating hot water.
S. Barker
NIC card
and
VIN number and
CDL license. and and and.... the list is endless.
lots of dumasses, I've even seen "PIN number" on official bank documents
and such.
s
"David Nebenzahl" <nob...@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:47ed3f05$0$17416$8226...@news.adtechcomputers.com...
S. Barker
s
"ransley" <Mark_R...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:badb85dd-f5b4-4845...@8g2000hsu.googlegroups.com...
Jeff
> As you may know, an electric water heater can be 30% of your electric
> bill...
>
> Well I got to thinking... I have this nice woodstove which puts out a lot of
> heat and it is always 80 to 100 degrees (F) next to the woodstove.
>
> Is there some way I can use this heat to "pre-heat" the water going into my
> hot water heater????
>
> Well I came up with an idea and tried it out. It works!
>
> I got a used 50 gallon water heater at a recycling center. Then removed the
> sheet metal cover and removed the insulation. So now I had just a bare metal
> 50 gallon tank. I painted it black as in theory black absorbs heat better.
Just a side note on the old no free lunch. The heat that is preheating
your water would have been heating your home instead. That's OK, if your
wood energy is cheaper than your electric. If you want to scavenge more
heat there's a number of methods.
http://zenstoves.net/Wood.htm has some different ideas. Otherwise some
coils on the back of the stove and a pressure relief valve. Of course,
copper is expensive these days.
Jeff
hchi...@hotmail.com
<ichase...@coldmail.com> wrote:
>Kind of like PIN number and
>
>NIC card
>
> and
>
>VIN number and
>
>CDL license. and and and.... the list is endless.
>
>lots of dumasses, I've even seen "PIN number" on official bank documents
>and such.
It is the way the language develops. If you want to pedantic, how
many times have you seen 72 point type advertising-
BABY SALE!
... or such obvious idiotic hyperbole from major metropolitan
newspapers as-
"All the news that is fit to print"
or spaceships splitting infinitives -
"to boldy go where no man has gone before"
There is a reason for the usenet rule of not commenting on spelling
and grammar. It wastes time and drains energy from the actual topic
being discussed. We've all done it, but at about one or two thousand
posts into using the medium, most of us realize that it is
non-productive and more annoying than the original gaff.
The tempering tank idea is an old one. In my Pop Mechanics
encyclopedia, one is shown being hung from joists in a cellar, near an
old coal burning furnace. Sometimes tanks like this sweat, and can be
a problem in the living space.
Edwin Pawlowski
<hchi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
> Because water that doesn't contain heat is ice.
>
But not all ice is absent of heat. Unless the ice is at absolute zero.
Logan Shaw
> Then I placed this tank next to my woodstove. Then disconnected the cold
> water going to my hot water heater and ran that to the bottom (drain)
> connection on the tank by the woodstove. Then ran a pipe going out the top
> of the tank by the woodstove to the cold water inlet of my electric hot
> water heater. (Cold into the bottom, warm out the top.)
>
> Note: My electric water heater is located on the other side of the wall next
> to my woodstove.
>
> After just a few hours, the water coming out of the top of the tank by the
> wood stove was about 70 degrees. (The water from the city going into the
> tank is 40 degrees F.) At this point the bottom of the tank felt cold and
> the top was not cold.
>
> The next morning, the entire tank was slightly warm.
Overall, I think this is a good idea that might save energy if, as
someone else has pointed out, wood is cheaper source of heat than
electricity.
There's only one thing that I'd want to verify: what kind of germs
are going to grow in water that is above 70F but below the temperature
of a regular water heater's tank? They say one reason not to turn
your water heater's thermostat too low is that the lower temperatures
encourage germs to multiply. If that's true, it seems like this
might apply to the tank next to your wood stove.
Of course, I'm not an expert in germ growth or anything. It's just
the one possible hitch that I can see, and so far nobody else has
mentioned it, so I thought I'd throw it out there.
- Logan
Pat
> Bill wrote:
> > As you may know, an electric water heater can be 30% of your electric
> > bill...
>
> > Well I got to thinking... I have this nice woodstove which puts out a lot of
> > heat and it is always 80 to 100 degrees (F) next to the woodstove.
>
> > Is there some way I can use this heat to "pre-heat" the water going into my
> > hot water heater????
>
> > Well I came up with an idea and tried it out. It works!
>
> > I got a used 50 gallon water heater at a recycling center. Then removed the
> > sheet metal cover and removed the insulation. So now I had just a bare metal
> > 50 gallon tank. I painted it black as in theory black absorbs heat better.
>
> Just a side note on the old no free lunch. The heat that is preheating
> your water would have been heating your home instead. That's OK, if your
> wood energy is cheaper than your electric. If you want to scavenge more
> heat there's a number of methods.
>
Two things. Yes, the heat "lost" by the tank is gained by the room.
So you are saving something but not as much as you imaging.
Second, most of your heat isn't from heating cool water, it's from
holding it at temp when no one is using it. You still haven't
addessed that issue.
Good luck with it.
Bill
>
> There's only one thing that I'd want to verify: what kind of germs
> are going to grow in water that is above 70F but below the temperature
> of a regular water heater's tank? They say one reason not to turn
> your water heater's thermostat too low is that the lower temperatures
> encourage germs to multiply. If that's true, it seems like this
> might apply to the tank next to your wood stove.
>
The water is from the city and is chlorinated.
Bill
>
> If you have the time get another tank, put it outside with bypass
> valves, when nightime temps are above incomming water temp
> let the tank fill, the sun will heat it fast
>
Actually for the summer, I am thinking about running a bunch of plastic
pipes in my attic which gets to be very hot. Plastic because I will need to
drain it each fall to prevent the pipes from freezing.
Also with this idea, I am thinking of installing another insulated water
tank and using a solar powered pump to circulate water slowly from the
insulated tank through the attic pipes and back to the insulated tank.
My city water is very cold year round. In the summer I would run it through
the tank by the woodstove first and this would help to cool the living room
(when using hot water) and bring the water up to room temperature. Then on
to the attic/insulated tank, then on to the electric water heater.
Lou
"Pat" <gro...@artisticphotography.us> wrote in message
news:37a8f1a3-a471-43b3...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> Two things. Yes, the heat "lost" by the tank is gained by the room.
> So you are saving something but not as much as you imaging.
>
> Second, most of your heat isn't from heating cool water, it's from
> holding it at temp when no one is using it. You still haven't
> addessed that issue.
I doubt that second issue. Depending on the insulation, of course, a hot
water tank will hold heat for hours/days. While I don't doubt that standby
losses are an issue, I don't think that under conditions of normal family
use standby losses are greater than the energy it takes to heat the water in
the first place.
Do you have any figures, citations, sites to back up that statement?
Neon John
>"ransley" wrote in message
>>
>> If you have the time get another tank, put it outside with bypass
>> valves, when nightime temps are above incomming water temp
>> let the tank fill, the sun will heat it fast
>>
>
>Actually for the summer, I am thinking about running a bunch of plastic
>pipes in my attic which gets to be very hot. Plastic because I will need to
>drain it each fall to prevent the pipes from freezing.
You'd probably be dollars ahead to simply get that heat out of your attic and reduce
the load on your AC.
>
>Also with this idea, I am thinking of installing another insulated water
>tank and using a solar powered pump to circulate water slowly from the
>insulated tank through the attic pipes and back to the insulated tank.
Why would you waste money on an under-powered and over-priced solar pump that quits
working when the sun goes behind a cloud when a conventional pump works so well and
draws so little power?
Solar water heat from the roof works well but generally, the tubing itself needs to
be exposed to the solar radiation. Radiative energy transfer is much more effective
than convective in this situation.
I did a similar system on my restaurant's flat tar roof. I simply laid several
hundred feet of direct burial black PVC pipe directly onto the tar. I tried
industrial black garden hose before that but it wasn't sufficiently UV-resistant to
last very long.
On bright sunny days, the water would almost boil. In all cases when the sun was
shining, this system made all the hot water the restaurant needed. There was a
NG-fired tankless heater for other times, of course. This system used no tank and no
fancy plumbing. City water went in one end of the tubing and hot water came out the
other. A three-way valve let me quickly switch the solar heater in and out as
needed. All manual control which was good enough.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I don't speak Stupid so do speak slowly.
Neon John
>I doubt that second issue. Depending on the insulation, of course, a hot
>water tank will hold heat for hours/days. While I don't doubt that standby
>losses are an issue, I don't think that under conditions of normal family
>use standby losses are greater than the energy it takes to heat the water in
>the first place.
More importantly, if the water heater is in habitable spaces then during the heating
season, lost heat isn't wasted. It simply contributes to space heating. The
opposite is true in summer, of course. If the water heater is in a closet, then one
can arrange some clever venting to conduct the heat directly to the attic and outside
during cooling season.
willshak
You know what he meant. Have nothing else to contribute?
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
willshak
woodstove before it goes into your storage tank ( a coil like on the
back of a dehumidifer) which would transfer heat by convection rather
than radiation?
Don Bruder
willshak <will...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote:
Do that and you start running into the potential for steam, which leads
to needing to deal with the related hazards that can come of it being in
an enclosed place... (Can you say boiler license, pressure vessel,
regulator valve, state inspector, and "expensive"? Sure... I knew you
could!)
--
Don Bruder - dak...@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
Neon John
>> How about a coil of soft copper tubing attached to the rear of the
>> woodstove before it goes into your storage tank ( a coil like on the
>> back of a dehumidifer) which would transfer heat by convection rather
>> than radiation?
>
>Do that and you start running into the potential for steam, which leads
>to needing to deal with the related hazards that can come of it being in
>an enclosed place... (Can you say boiler license, pressure vessel,
>regulator valve, state inspector, and "expensive"? Sure... I knew you
>could!)
Geez, I wonder how all those millions of oil, wood and coal-fired furnace water
heating loops manage to operate without a special grant of privilege from Congress?
Maybe some day some academic will do a study and figure out why Usenet seems to
attract such a concentration of dickhead-isms.
For a simple application like this, a simple water heater P-T relief valve is more
than adequate. As far as the bureaucracies go, there is no involvement until a
certain large firing rate. In Ga it is 1.5 million BTU per unit. TN's is a little
lower - can't recall exactly - but still above 1 million BTU.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I'm going crazy. Wanna come along?
Edwin Pawlowski
"Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
> Geez, I wonder how all those millions of oil, wood and coal-fired furnace
> water
> heating loops manage to operate without a special grant of privilege from
> Congress?
> Maybe some day some academic will do a study and figure out why Usenet
> seems to
> attract such a concentration of dickhead-isms.
>
> For a simple application like this, a simple water heater P-T relief valve
> is more
> than adequate. As far as the bureaucracies go, there is no involvement
> until a
> certain large firing rate. In Ga it is 1.5 million BTU per unit. TN's is
> a little
> lower - can't recall exactly - but still above 1 million BTU.
>
> John
In Mass, it is pressure. Anything with a 15 psi relief valve is OK, no
matter the size. At 15 psi and over you need a different license depending
on size. Up to 299 hp you need a special or a 2nd class fireman, at 300 hp
you need an engineer full time. etc. There is an exception for very small
boilers but I forget the size.
In any case, it is not very difficult to make a loop that would be safe and
not require input from any government agency.
hal...@aol.com
> In article <13ut4v5pok38...@news.supernews.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
if there were a way to takew the flue exhaust gasses of woodstove thru
the old flue of a gas hot water tank with no burner.........
Logan Shaw
All right, I did some more research. From what I could dig up, the
"growth range" for Legionella bacteria is 20C to 50C (68F to 122F)
and the "ideal growth range" is 35C to 46C (95F to 115F). That
information is from here:
http://www.relianceworldwide.com/site/fs_legionella.htm
As to whether chlorination kills it, the same site says that a
concentration of 10 mg/L will do the trick. According to what
I could find other places, chlorinated drinking water seems to
contain chlorine in a concentration of something more like
0.5 mg/L. But it may have been initially treated with a much
higher level, something on the order of 5 mg/L to 10 mg/L.
Here's a site that talks about chlorinating well water:
http://www.water-research.net/watertreatment/chlorination.htm
So, I don't know, you may be safe. If they kill the bacteria
before they send the water down the pipe to your house, there
wouldn't be any worry as long as nothing reintroduces it anywhere
in the distribution network. But whether that happens is beyond
my expertise.
- Logan
Bob F
<hal...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3a4da076-1e77-46fb...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
****************************************************************
Creosote would be a problem.
Rod Speed
That last does happen. Which is why the recommendation on the temperature of storage hot water systems.
Neon John
>So, I don't know, you may be safe. If they kill the bacteria
>before they send the water down the pipe to your house, there
>wouldn't be any worry as long as nothing reintroduces it anywhere
>in the distribution network. But whether that happens is beyond
>my expertise.
This reinforces a conclusion that I reached long ago. What this world needs is
another world war or maybe a pandemic. That way people won't have time to worry
about such trivial, almost nil risks.
I swear that some folks, when they get to heaven, will worry that their wings aren't
large enough.
Johh, happily living on unchlorinated, untested, good-taasting well water.
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity. Lick once and you suck forever.
Bill
>
> How about a coil of soft copper tubing attached to the rear of the
> woodstove before it goes into your storage tank ( a coil like on the back
> of a dehumidifer) which would transfer heat by convection rather than
> radiation?
>
I've read a book on steam boilers and know just enough about the subject to
want to avoid creation of any steam. I've read about steam boilers exploding
and being launched like a rocket up out of the house and landing on a
neighbor's house, etc.
Also I would think that avoiding steam would depend on a pump circulating
the water. I live in a rural area and we have frequent power outages.
Sometime they last for 2 days.
Bill
>
> Solar water heat from the roof works well but generally, the tubing itself
> needs to
> be exposed to the solar radiation. Radiative energy transfer is much more
> effective
> than convective in this situation.
>
I live in a snow area and my roof is at a 45 degree angle. Also 2 story
house. So basically need a high lift to get up there. Quite easy to access
the attic though.
hal...@aol.com
T&P valve anywhere in hot water circuit should open if steam etc is
created...........
ideally old tank would have its own T&P valve........
did you know the old side arm how water tanks common in the 60s used a
copper tube coil in a gas burner for water heating. noi circuliating
pump, must of been from natural convention..........
long time ago i was a little kid
hal...@aol.com
googled side arm hot water tank and look what turned up
NapalmHeart
> bill...
>
> Well I got to thinking... I have this nice woodstove which puts out a
> lot of heat and it is always 80 to 100 degrees (F) next to the
> woodstove.
>
> Is there some way I can use this heat to "pre-heat" the water going
> into my hot water heater????
>
> Well I came up with an idea and tried it out. It works!
<snip>
I've done this before and did notice a difference in energy usage and in
recovery time.
Ken
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
"Lee K" <lee_k...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HZ7Hj.24028$Ej5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
>>
>
> Just curious: why is it that you want to heat hot water?
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
<hchi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ugequ3pakdkj9anpp...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:16:55 GMT, "Lee K" <lee_k...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:654bunF...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>> my > hot water heater????
>>>
>>
>>Just curious: why is it that you want to heat hot water?
>>
>
> hot water heater."
>
> If it is pre-heated, then the water heater IS a hot water heater,
> smartass.
>
pot? kettle? :)
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
>
> <hchi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ugequ3pakdkj9anpp...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:16:55 GMT, "Lee K" <lee_k...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>news:654bunF...@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>> my > hot water heater????
>>>>
>>>
>>>Just curious: why is it that you want to heat hot water?
>>>
>> Because water that doesn't contain heat is ice.
>
> about heating ice water, just heating hot water.
because by default, all water that isn't ice water contains heat, and could
be considered some form of hot? one person's warm is another person's hot.
:)
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
"willshak" <will...@00hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:13ut4km...@news.supernews.com...
> on 3/28/2008 11:16 AM Lee K said the following:
>> "Bill" <billnoma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:654bunF...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>>> my > hot water heater????
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Just curious: why is it that you want to heat hot water?
>
> You know what he meant. Have nothing else to contribute?
>
i figured he was being funny.