Spacing Trips to the Grocery Store?
Jonathan Grobe
store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
have been thinking I should increase the time between
trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
While some can be frozen, others can't.
Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
the determining factor).
What is you policy on this? What are you freezing because
of the freshness problem...
--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com
Rod Speed
> Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
> have been thinking I should increase the time between
> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
> While some can be frozen, others can't.
You can obviously stop eating those that cant.
> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have between trips?
Depends entirely on how much you are prepared to change what you eat.
I managed fine with 2 months once I chose to make my own bread using a bread machine.
> (For me it looks like milk would be the determining factor).
Nope, thats trivially fixed by using UHT milk that lasts much longer than 2 months.
If you cant get used to the taste of that, you can freeze normal milk fine.
> What is you policy on this?
I chose to eat what would last fine for 2 months.
I have since changed to eating a lot more fruit and now choose to do a weekly shop just for the fruit.
Even that could be extended a lot by eating mainly apples etc that keep for a long time in the fridge.
The weekly shop currently is limited by the bananas that only last about a week in the fridge.
> What are you freezing because of the freshness problem...
I freeze everything I eat routinely except the fruit and potatoes and lettuce.
Dave
Jonathan Grobe <gr...@netins.net> wrote:
> Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
> have been thinking I should increase the time between
> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
> While some can be frozen, others can't.
>
> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
> between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
> the determining factor).
>
> What is you policy on this? What are you freezing because
> of the freshness problem...
>
While gas was still cheap, I was living over 30 miles from the nearest
supermarket. And I HATE grocery shopping. I managed just fine with
grocery shopping every other week. But I had given up drinking milk
years before then. I can't stomach milk now, it makes me ill.
But if you need milk, many convenience stores actually sell gallons of
milk CHEAPER than supermarkets, hoping you will stop there for cheap
milk and load up on lots of over-priced convenience items while you are
buying the cheap milk. My point? You should check the local
convenience stores to see if you can get your milk there. If so, then
two weeks between grocery shopping is easily done. But, obviously, you
have to be careful in making your list before you leave home.
On a side note, where I'm living now, I could easily walk to a
convenience store that carries milk for $1.99 per gallon. -Dave
clams_casino
>
>But if you need milk, many convenience stores actually sell gallons of
>milk CHEAPER than supermarkets
>
>On a side note, where I'm living now, I could easily walk to a
>convenience store that carries milk for $1.99 per gallon. -Dave
>
>
I haven't bought a gallon of milk from a major grocer in years. I'll
pick up a gallon at Aldi's if I'm in need during that run or from a
local gas/convenience station (Cumberland Farms / Gulf) that is
currently selling a gallon at $2.79 vs. the $4+ at the major grocers.
I'll gladly walk into the convenience store when I'm fueling to save
$1-1.50 (or even stop in, providing I'm driving by) . Outside of the
gas / milk, however, I'm not sure there is anything else worthwhile at
the convenience store. I'm convinced they are primarily in business to
sell cigarettes & lottery tickets.
Lou
"Jonathan Grobe" <gr...@netins.net> wrote in message
news:slrng7i3sk...@worf.netins.net...
> Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
> have been thinking I should increase the time between
> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
> While some can be frozen, others can't.
>
> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
> between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
> the determining factor).
Milk can be frozen and later thawed for use. The shelf life of perishables
might determine how often you have to go to the store, but the shelf life of
milk is unlikely to be the determining factor.
AL
catalpa
"Dave" <no...@nohow.not> wrote in message
news:20080712174743...@nohow.not...
Where do you live that milk is only $1.99 a gallon?
Here in PA state minimum price is $4.10 a gallon.
JonquilJan
Jonathan Grobe <gr...@netins.net> wrote in message
news:slrng7i3sk...@worf.netins.net...
Milk is available in aseptic (shelf stable) packaging. You might have to
travel to a natural foods store to find it though. You could stock up on
that and only use it when the other (must be refrigerated) type runs out.
Horizon and Organic Valley are the two brands that come to mind. I'm sure
there arfe others.
I don't drink milk any more (adult onset lactose sensitivity) so not sure
about the availability - other than the food buying co-operative I belong
to. Check unitedbuyingclubs.com to see if there is a group in your area
if you're interested.
Or you could get a goat.
JonquilJan
Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying
Rod Speed
> Sometimes powdered milk is cheaper then liquid milk.
Few prefer powdered milk to real milk when they have a choice tho.
Neon John
wrote:
>Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
>store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
>have been thinking I should increase the time between
>trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
>While some can be frozen, others can't.
>
>Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
>between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
>the determining factor).
>
>What is you policy on this? What are you freezing because
>of the freshness problem...
Almost 30 miles and over an hour to the nearest store for me. I go once a
month. I have three freezers and two refrigerators. I've tuned the
refrigerators to operate almost exactly at 32 degrees. Produce and bread
lasts twice as long at that temperature than the more usual 40-45 deg.
Milk's my biggest problem too. I don't drink the stuff but I make a lot of
ice cream and otherwise cook with it. For non-drinking purposes, milk freezes
fine. It might be OK to drink too - never tried - but it does have a texture
when thawed.
Another avenue that I'm experimenting with is turning powdered milk back into
whole milk by adding butter. I think that it'll be fine for cooking when I
get the amount of butter just right. I haven't tried it for ice cream yet.
Basically, everything that one would normally leave sitting out - bread,
cookies, snacks, etc. goes in the 'fridge. The shelf life extension is
amazing. One of my 'fridges is a chest freezer with the thermostat set to 32
deg. MUCH cheaper to operate than a traditional freezer. One has to be
careful not to let stuff touch the sides, as the refrigerant coils embedded in
the walls still go below freezing during operation. I slide pieces of
cardboard into place at critical points.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources -Albert Einstein
FarmI
> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
> have been thinking I should increase the time between
> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
> While some can be frozen, others can't.
>
> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
> between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
> the determining factor).
>
> What is you policy on this? What are you freezing because
> of the freshness problem...
We find that we have to have regular trips to town for one reason or another
that has nothing to do with food and that is when we buy our groceries.
I think for me the only problem would be bananas. There is no way to store
them in any way.
I always have UHT milk on hand for when we run out of fresh and I would have
no trouble just using that all the time. I also keep UHT cream for the rare
times we use it. We bake our own bread most of the time, but I have to get
my husband to do some of the kneading as I now no longer have the strength
for a big batch of multiple loaves. We freeze all but one loaf. We have a
veggie garden and for most of the year I have fresh greens and always have
fresh herbs with the exception of coriander which I have to buy in mid
summer through to mid winter. I bake our all own cakes and most of our
biscuits (cookies) with the exception of the watercracker/Jatz type savoury
biscuits to have with dips. I make most of our own dips and the only 'dip'
we would buy regularly is Salsa which falls off the shopping list once the
tomatoes are cropping. We have our own chooks so have our own eggs but even
if we didn't, eggs last for a long time and even more so if stored in
pollard or coated in vaseline. Meat can of course be frozen as can
casseroles and all sorts of other things. The one and only problem between
long spaced shopping trips would be bananas.
Rod Speed
> Jonathan Grobe <gr...@netins.net> wrote
>> Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
>> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
>> have been thinking I should increase the time between
>> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
>> While some can be frozen, others can't.
>> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
>> between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
>> the determining factor).
>> What is you policy on this? What are you freezing because
>> of the freshness problem...
> We find that we have to have regular trips to town for one reason or
> another that has nothing to do with food and that is when we buy our
> groceries.
> I think for me the only problem would be bananas. There is no way to store them in any way.
Wrong, they last a lot longer in the fridge, tho they look just as bad on the outside.
> I always have UHT milk on hand for when we run out of fresh and I would have no trouble just using that all the time.
> I also keep UHT cream for the rare times we use it.
Me too.
> We bake our own bread most of the time, but I have to get my husband to do some of the kneading as I now no longer
> have the strength for a big batch of multiple loaves.
Time to get a bread machine.
> We freeze all but one loaf.
Makes more sense to get a bread machine and bake more often.
> We have a veggie garden and for most of the year I have fresh greens and always have fresh herbs with the exception of
> coriander which I have to buy in mid summer through to mid winter.
> I bake our all own cakes and most of our biscuits (cookies) with the exception of the watercracker/Jatz type savoury
> biscuits to have with dips.
Dont bother with dips, use Jatz for cheese.
> I make most of our own dips and the only 'dip' we would buy regularly is Salsa which falls off the shopping list once
> the tomatoes are cropping.
> We have our own chooks so have our own eggs but even if we didn't, eggs last for a long time
Yep.
> and even more so if stored in pollard or coated in vaseline.
Just the fridge is plenty for even a couple of months food run times.
> Meat can of course be frozen as can casseroles and all sorts of other things.
> The one and only problem between long spaced shopping trips would be bananas.
Obviously you can stop eating those if the week that a fridge gives is too short,
or just eat them for the week after the shopping trip and do without for the extra.
Bill
I have 2 (or more) of all grocery store items!
2 Catsup
2 Mustard
2 Jars Mayonnaise
Etc.
If I run out of one, I use the "backup", then add the item to my shopping
list. So I don't need to run to the store "right now" to get a bottle of
catsup.
For things I use more of than once during the month or might use more of for
one month, I have say 4 of that item. (Like BBQ. sauce.) Or maybe 8 bottles
of soda pop.
Then I will buy a lot of whatever meat is on sale and freeze it.
For things like bread and milk, I will buy these at the local convenience
store as needed. But basically I only need to go grocery shopping once a
month.
Larry Caldwell
(Neon John) says...
> Milk's my biggest problem too. I don't drink the stuff but I make a lot of
> ice cream and otherwise cook with it. For non-drinking purposes, milk freezes
> fine. It might be OK to drink too - never tried - but it does have a texture
> when thawed.
Shake the crap out of it after it thaws. You can shake the lumps back
into suspension. Once you do that, the flavor is fine.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Ann
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 20:09:56 +0000 (UTC), Jonathan Grobe
> <gr...@netins.net> wrote:
> Another avenue that I'm experimenting with is turning powdered milk back
> into whole milk by adding butter. I think that it'll be fine for cooking
> when I get the amount of butter just right. I haven't tried it for ice
> cream yet.
If you ever figure that out, please post the "secret". I think there is
some off-taste, compared to Jersey milk i/c, particularly vanilla. But
ice cream socials switched to evaporated milk in their (cooked egg
custard) recipe decades ago. Partly cost and partly availability.
val189
I buy milk by the gallon, then split and freeze 3 separate quarts of
it.
Use those green bags to keep produce for longer periods of time.
Write up a staple list - and check it before you shop. This way, I
don't find out the day after shopping that I'm almost out of potatoes
etc.
Although I live close to a supermarket but hate to shop, I know what
you're feeling.
val189
wrote:
> Shake the crap out of it after it thaws. You can shake the lumps back
> into suspension. Once you do that, the flavor is fine.
Agree. It has to be fully thawed, then shaken well. I have never
found a difference in taste or texture. I use skim, but I bet the
others do as well.
I keep dry milk on hand too, but use it only in the bread machine
recipes. Saves a few pennies and makes my liquid milk supply last
longer.
You could also keep a box of Parmalat on the shelf for a real
emergency - but it ain't cheap. It's part of my hurricane rations.
Larry Caldwell
05450e...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, gweh...@bellsouth.net
(val189) says...
> I keep dry milk on hand too, but use it only in the bread machine
> recipes. Saves a few pennies and makes my liquid milk supply last
> longer.
>
> You could also keep a box of Parmalat on the shelf for a real
> emergency - but it ain't cheap. It's part of my hurricane rations.
I keep a few cans of evaporated milk around for emergencies. If you
reconstitute powdered milk and add a little canned cow, it even gets
almost drinkable. It's good enough to pour over cereal.
Larry Caldwell
@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, gweh...@bellsouth.net (val189) says...
> Write up a staple list - and check it before you shop. This way, I
> don't find out the day after shopping that I'm almost out of potatoes
> etc.
A box of potato flakes is handy when you run out of potatoes. Potato
flakes added to a batch of bread will keep the bread fresh longer. A
little lecithin (1 tsp per loaf) will also help keep home made bread
moist and fresh. A potato-lecithin loaf will keep in the bread box 3 or
4 days before going stale. Potato bread also holds its flavor better
when frozen.
I also keep a couple bags of tater tots in the freezer. Mashed up and
fried, they make an OK hash brown (home fries) substitute.
Larry Caldwell
01.iinet.net.au>, ask@itshall (FarmI) says...
> I always have UHT milk on hand for when we run out of fresh and I would have
> no trouble just using that all the time. I also keep UHT cream for the rare
> times we use it.
By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff you store at room temperature
in boxes? We still can't get irradiated food at markets in the USA,
which would make fresh food storage a lot easier. The military uses it
a lot, though.
Sheldon
If adding butter along with powdered milk for cooking it will be fine,
especially for baking... but it's not possible to emulsify powdered
milk with butter for drinking unless you don't mind the tiny bits of
butter.
The proper way to rehydrate powdered milk is to let it sit in the
fridge for 24 hours before drinking... it's called instant but it's
not, it needs time to completely hydrate. When done correctly you'd
be hard pressed to tell the difference from fresh skim milk. Another
trick is to add just one drop of vanilla extract per quart. Naturally
if you leave the powdered milk packaging out in plain view everyone
will imagine it tastes different from fresh, because if the package is
on the table and the milk served is actually fresh skim no one will
believe you... the power of suggestion is quite potent.
George
> In article <4879c32c$0$29804$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
> 01.iinet.net.au>, ask@itshall (FarmI) says...
>
>> I always have UHT milk on hand for when we run out of fresh and I would have
>> no trouble just using that all the time. I also keep UHT cream for the rare
>> times we use it.
>
> By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff you store at room temperature
> in boxes? We still can't get irradiated food at markets in the USA,
> which would make fresh food storage a lot easier. The military uses it
> a lot, though.
>
temperature. It is guaranteed to kill of everything and unfortunately
more of the taste.
m...@privacy.net
>Almost 30 miles and over an hour to the nearest store for me. I go once a
>month. I have three freezers and two refrigerators. I've tuned the
>refrigerators to operate almost exactly at 32 degrees. Produce and bread
>lasts twice as long at that temperature than the more usual 40-45 deg.
Neon John you have given me and idea!
I have been thinking abt buying a small freezer for
some time now... this fall probably
I live close to grocery stores but winters in north
Missouri can get bad so being able to NOT have to run
to grocery store on miserable cold night is the impetus
here.
Having said that.... have been thinking abt the small
freezer idea BUT your post got me to thinking that
maybe I should get another FRIDGE instead! That way
I'd have more freezer space as well as refrigerated
space for keeping things lots longer as you mention
above!
I could keep the bananas and bread and cookies and all
kinds of things you normally leave laying out IN the
extra fridge room..... as well as having TWO
freezers... one in current fridge and the other freezer
space in the second fridge.
What you say?
Rod Speed
> ask@itshall (FarmI) wrote
>> I always have UHT milk on hand for when we run out of fresh
>> and I would have no trouble just using that all the time. I also
>> keep UHT cream for the rare times we use it.
> By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff you store at room temperature in boxes?
Nope, its not irradiated, its a heat treatment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHT
And yes, its stored at room temp in cardboard boxes lined with plastic.
> We still can't get irradiated food at markets in the USA,
> which would make fresh food storage a lot easier.
> The military uses it a lot, though.
Thats not UHT. UHT means Ultra High Temperature.
Its essentially flash sterilised.
Evelyn C. Leeper
> Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
> have been thinking I should increase the time between
> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
> While some can be frozen, others can't.
>
> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
> between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
> the determining factor).
Non-fat dry milk. If you don't like non-fat milk, combine it with
canned evaporated milk.
One advantage of dry milk is that you can mix up only what you need,
instead of having to buy a gallon at a time. (We don't use much, so
Mark mixes about a pint at a time.) You can also add the powder to
soups and such.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper
Just because everything is different doesn't mean
anything has changed. -Irene Peter
Ann
> In article <4879c32c$0$29804$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
> 01.iinet.net.au>, ask@itshall (FarmI) says...
>
>> I always have UHT milk on hand for when we run out of fresh and I would
>> have no trouble just using that all the time. I also keep UHT cream for
>> the rare times we use it.
>
> By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff you store at room temperature in
> boxes? We still can't get irradiated food at markets in the USA, which
> would make fresh food storage a lot easier. The military uses it a lot,
> though.
Wegmans supermarket chain in the northeast began selling irradiated beef
in 2002. I never bought it, but the last I noticed, it was still in the
meat case.
Goomba
> Wegmans supermarket chain in the northeast began selling irradiated beef
> in 2002. I never bought it, but the last I noticed, it was still in the
> meat case.
>
The same meat!? WOW, that irradiation IS some preserver, huh? LOL
The Real Bev
Same piece? Awesome!
--
Cheers,
Bev
*********************************************
Not all cultures are equal. If they were, we
would have a lot more cannibal restaurants.
Jim
> Larry Caldwell wrote:
[....]
> >
> > By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff
[....]
>
> Wegmans supermarket chain in the northeast began selling irradiated beef
> in 2002. I never bought it, but the last I noticed, it was still in the
> meat case.
since they continue to carry and stock the item that's going to be a
good indicator of how someone is purchasing the stuff.
how's the literacy rate in that area?
Ann
Yeah, realized when I reread that after posting that someone would
probably say that.
Ann
> Ann wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:56:39 -0700, Larry Caldwell wrote:
>>
>>> By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff you store at room temperature
>>> in boxes? We still can't get irradiated food at markets in the USA,
>>> which would make fresh food storage a lot easier. The military uses it
>>> a lot, though.
>>
>> Wegmans supermarket chain in the northeast began selling irradiated beef
>> in 2002. I never bought it, but the last I noticed, it was still in the
>> meat case.
>
> Same piece? Awesome!
Actually, more than one. <g>
Ann
Bought it the same city the friend you mentioned is from, Elmira. He would
know better about the literacy rate.
Ann
The only circumstance under which I drink milk is when it's heavily
fortified with chocolate. <g> Which is convenient because that eliminates
the fresh liquid milk hassle.
Gene S. Berkowitz
says...
> Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
> have been thinking I should increase the time between
> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
> While some can be frozen, others can't.
>
> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
> between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
> the determining factor).
>
> of the freshness problem...
We shop every two weeks, and buy Stonyfield Farms milk.
It is ultra-pasteurized, and at the supermarket we shop at, the "sell
by" date is usually over a month away. Once opened, you should use it
within seven days. I find the flavor quite good, and even like their 1%
milk.
As I understand it, U/P milk can not be used to make cheese, it will
never set. I don't think it's a problem for ice cream.
--Gene
Jim
> Jim wrote:
> > Ann wrote:
> >> Larry Caldwell wrote:
> > [....]
> >> >
> >> > By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff
> > [....]
> >>
> >> irradiated beef
[....]
> >
> > how's the literacy rate in that area?
>
> Bought it the same city the friend you mentioned is from, Elmira. He would
> know better about the literacy rate.
he moved here back in 1976. things change...
FarmI
> FarmI <ask@itshall be given> wrote
>> We find that we have to have regular trips to town for one reason or
>> another that has nothing to do with food and that is when we buy our
>> groceries.
>
>> I think for me the only problem would be bananas. There is no way to
>> store them in any way.
>
> Wrong, they last a lot longer in the fridge, tho they look just as bad on
> the outside.
Yuk! I can't stomach bananas with black skin. I prefer bananas slightly
underripe and once the skin is black, they make me want to barf. If they get
overripe, I make a banana cake out of them.
>> We bake our own bread most of the time, but I have to get my husband to
>> do some of the kneading as I now no longer have the strength for a big
>> batch of multiple loaves.
>
> Time to get a bread machine.
I had one. I hated it so gave it away. I find it's less messy to make it
by hand even if it does take more grunt power.
>> We freeze all but one loaf.
>
> Makes more sense to get a bread machine and bake more often.
Not to us. We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up and
we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
FarmI
news:bjok74hlubued9gud...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:56:09 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
> "FarmI"
> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>> think for me the only problem would be bananas. There is no way to store
>>them in any way.
>
>
I agree. I use dehydrated bananas in my breakfast cereal but I buy those.
FarmI
> 01.iinet.net.au>, ask@itshall (FarmI) says...
>
>> I always have UHT milk on hand for when we run out of fresh and I would
>> have
>> no trouble just using that all the time. I also keep UHT cream for the
>> rare
>> times we use it.
>
> By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff you store at room temperature
> in boxes? We still can't get irradiated food at markets in the USA,
> which would make fresh food storage a lot easier. The military uses it
> a lot, though.
Others have answered the question a from one of the cites (the wiki one) I
found that UHT is supposedly available in the US. I know you know and like
all sorts of food so it surprses me that you haven't come across UHT. I
assume it's not around where you are? How common is it?
I've always seen lots of references both here in this thread and other US
dominated ngs and on sites that makes me think that powdered milk seems to
be much used in the US. Is that so?
I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice between
UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
powdered - yuckie poo!
Neon John
>I could keep the bananas and bread and cookies and all
>kinds of things you normally leave laying out IN the
>extra fridge room..... as well as having TWO
>freezers... one in current fridge and the other freezer
>space in the second fridge.
>
>What you say?
That should work fine. You'll have to be careful about keeping things that
ripen from ethylene gas (bananas and such) away from foods that give off
ethylene. I don't recall which those are but a quick google should pop up an
answer.
I'm not much of a fruit eater, an occasional apple, cherries and grapes is
about it, so I've not had to deal with this problem.
I have one of those vacuum packaging machines, the one that Sam's club sells.
I use it a LOT. It totally stops freezer burn. It's also good for packaging
refrigerated items. Just suck the air out and seal at that point instead of
letting it try to pump the liquid out. The bags are laminated to be
impermeable which keeps odors in and contaminants out.
Here are some more ideas regarding vacuum freezing.
http://www.neon-john.com/RV/Food/Freeze_Vac.htm
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Better to pass boldly into that other world in the full glory of some passion
than fade and wither dismally with age. -Joyce
Rod Speed
>> FarmI <ask@itshall be given> wrote
>>> We find that we have to have regular trips to town for one reason or another that has nothing to do with food and
>>> that is when we buy our groceries.
>>> I think for me the only problem would be bananas. There is no way to store them in any way.
>> Wrong, they last a lot longer in the fridge, tho they look just as bad on the outside.
> Yuk! I can't stomach bananas with black skin.
Nothing to do with that silly claim you made.
> I prefer bananas slightly underripe and once the skin is black, they make me want to barf.
Your problem.
> If they get overripe, I make a banana cake out of them.
>>> We bake our own bread most of the time, but I have to get my
>>> husband to do some of the kneading as I now no longer have the
>>> strength for a big batch of multiple loaves.
>> Time to get a bread machine.
> I had one. I hated it so gave it away.
You've got a hell of a lot of mindlessly silly hangups, havent you ?
> I find it's less messy to make it by hand
Like hell it is.
> even if it does take more grunt power.
>>> We freeze all but one loaf.
>> Makes more sense to get a bread machine and bake more often.
> Not to us.
More fool you.
> We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread
You've got a hell of a lot of mindlessly silly hangups, havent you ?
> and the cleaning up
There is no clearing up whatever.
> and we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
You've got a hell of a lot of mindlessly silly hangups, havent you ?
Neon John
>>I could keep the bananas and bread and cookies and all
>>kinds of things you normally leave laying out IN the
>>extra fridge room..... as well as having TWO
>>freezers... one in current fridge and the other freezer
>>space in the second fridge.
>>
>>What you say?
>
>
>I can and dehydrate stuff then don't have the extra electric bill from freezing
>stuff.
I haven't done a scientific study but I just bet that by the time you figure
in the cost of electricity or gas for the canning, the jars and lids and other
supplies, freezing is as inexpensive and certainly preserves the food's taste
better.
I HAVE measured the power consumption of my chest freezers. Each uses 2.2kWh
per day (67 kWh per month) at a monthly cost of $4.41. I can run each one all
year for $53. These are old freezers and no doubt, newer ones are
significantly more efficient. This is with operating the freezers at -20 deg
F. Colder than most folks keep things but I find that the extra cold greatly
cuts down on freezer burn.
This has made me curious as to how canning actually compares to freezing,
cost-wise. I prefer to can on a gas stove but electric makes it easier to
figure so that's what I'll use here.
I got out my amp-clamp and measured the power draw of an electric stove eye on
my stove. 8.8 amps @ 240 volts which is 2.1kW. That's about 7513 BTU/hr. A
typical domestic gas range eye is about 8,000 BTU so the electric is roughly
equivalent. A pressure canning cycle takes about 45 minutes so a cycle uses
2.1*0.75 = 1.6kWh of electricity.
My big canning pressure cooker can hold 8 quarts or 10 pints. The energy per
jar for quarts, what I normally can, is 1.6/8= 0.2kWh/jar.
As a rough guess, each chest freezer would hold about 225 jars. At
0.2kWh/jar, a freezer's worth of jars would involve 50.4kWh of electricity for
canning.
Let's assume that I store the jars for 7 months (fresh produce is generally
available here for 5 months) each year. From above, one of my freezers will
use 67kWh/month * 7 = 469kWh to freeze the same amount of food.
At first blush, it would appear that canning has almost a 10:1 cost advantage,
though the absolute dollar amount is very small in either case - using the
current electric rate of $.073970/kWh*, that's $3.73 for canning, $34.69 for
freezing. But that doesn't figure in the cost of jars. Quart jars were close
to a dollar a jar last year but let's say $0.75 to account for some reuse and
to offset the cost of zip-lock bags for freezing. 225 jars * $0.75 = $168.75.
*This is the actual cost per kWh computed at my current rate of usage by
dividing the actual bottom line dollar amount by the actual kWh on each bill
and averaging across last year. It includes all fees and taxes. There has
been a small rate increase since but this is close enough for figurin'.
Summary
Freezing for 7 months: $34.69
Canning for 7 months: 168.75+3.73 = $172.48
Only if I could use all my jars for about 5 years would the costs be even.
That doesn't take into account all the work involved. At higher electric
rates, the balance would tilt toward canning since the fixed cost of the jars
is a smaller fraction of the total.
There's another factor, the "give-away factor" with canning. While I almost
never find myself giving away frozen food, like everyone else, I end up giving
away a lot of what I can. That makes canning slightly more expensive than
computed above, both from the loss of jars and the loss of product.
I think that I'll stick to freezing. There are very few things that I
actually like canned. Corn, peas, some varieties of green beans plus some
fruit. I can eat other things but I'd MUCH prefer them frozen.
With either zip-lock bags or packages from my vacuum packaging machine, I can
simply toss a portion-pack of food in a pot of boiling water or in the
microwave and have the food ready to eat in just a few minutes without
dirtying any cooking utensils. Another win for freezing.
There's not enough money involved either way to matter so this is primarily an
academic exercise to satisfy my curiosity. Plus, I have to admit that the
older I get, the less of either I do and the more I buy already frozen. It's
hard to beat 20 lb restaurant bulk packs of frozen veggies, both for
convenience and cost.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
No one can be right all of the time, but it helps to be right most of the time. -Robert Half
Neon John
>> Makes more sense to get a bread machine and bake more often.
>
>Not to us. We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
>bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up and
>we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
>
I'm with you on that. I *hated* the bread machine that I briefly owned. Tiny
little loaves that tasted nothing like what I make by hand, even using the
same recipe.
I make plain old French bread almost exclusively. I'd much rather spend a day
every so often baking, vacuum packaging and freezing a large quantity than I
would fooling with the machine, even if the product came out the same.
I generally like kitchen gadgets but a bread machine is a glaring exception.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
No one can be right all of the time but I'm getting close.
Neon John
>Others have answered the question a from one of the cites (the wiki one) I
>found that UHT is supposedly available in the US. I know you know and like
>all sorts of food so it surprses me that you haven't come across UHT. I
>assume it's not around where you are? How common is it?
UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf space it
gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly scorched taste.
I used to keep some in my RV for cooking but now I just keep some frozen
packets of regular milk in the freezer.
>
>I've always seen lots of references both here in this thread and other US
>dominated ngs and on sites that makes me think that powdered milk seems to
>be much used in the US. Is that so?
Seems so, again, judging by the shelf space it gets.
>
>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice between
>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>powdered - yuckie poo!
I couldn't imagine drinking the stuff (but then, I can't stand milk anyway)
but it's OK for cooking as long as you add enough butter to replenish the
butterfat. The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors cook
with it too, so we usually split a box.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Why the US is losing its competitivve edge:"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."-James Niccol
Ann
Not much. The population (~100k) of the metro area that includes Elmira
peaked in 1970 and has fallen about 10% since. Demographics haven't
noticeably changed either.
Sheldon
>
> think for me the only problem would be bananas. �
> There is no way to store them in any way.
Bananas freeze exceptionally well... peel, roll in waxed paper, and
pop in the freezer... now all ready for smoothies, and makes an
excellent frozen dessert. Some stab them with a stick, dip in
chocolate, and roll them in nuts before freezing. Frozen bananas make
a far more healthful treat than ice cream.
Jim
it is most always and usually the people with the means and the wherewithal
who do the moving on and out to improved standards of living or other locations
offering increased opportunities. this in and of itself will leave a depressed
area in decline with a population of persons who are usually not well educated
or have not been able to for one reason or another seek a better life elsewhere
as the new primary inhabitants.
Ann
But, as I wrote, I don't think the demographics have (has?) changed. The
"primary inhabitants" are the same as they were in the 70s.
rick++
Every five days one of the three would get perishables
for the group, but each person only need to go into
town every other week.
Dennis
wrote:
>Not to us. We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
>bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up and
>we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
We use the bread machine to mix and knead the dough, then after the
initial rise turn it out into a greased pan and bake in the oven. We
like the "normal" shaped loaves and the crust comes out more to our
liking.
Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin
val189
We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
> bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up and
> we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
I have two bread machines (friend gave me one she wasn't using) - so I
make two types of bread at a time, baked 'em in oven. No holes, and
they almost jump out of my nonstick loaf pans.
I could never get the hang of kneading, so this system makes me
happy. I don't run out of bread, I like the product, and I'm not
paying those store prices. I have no idea if using the big oven vs.
letting the machines do the baking is more expensive, but I refuse to
analyze every action.
Seerialmom
> Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
> have been thinking I should increase the time between
> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
> While some can be frozen, others can't.
>
> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
> between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
> the determining factor).
>
> What is you policy on this? What are you freezing because
> of the freshness problem...
>
> Jonathan Grobe Books
> Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:http://www.grobebooks.com
Milk can be frozen or you could use powdered. I don't drink milk so
it's not a problem. You could also look into "delivery" of some of
these items. Perhaps it would be cheaper to have the "milkman"
deliver milk and eggs or there could be a local farmer who sells it.
I'm sure the people in Alaska would be able to answer this better
though.
m...@privacy.net
>Milk can be frozen
How long can it last in frozen block state? Forever?
Seerialmom
wrote:
> In article <4879c32c$0$29804$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
> 01.iinet.net.au>, ask@itshall (FarmI) says...
>
> > I always have UHT milk on hand for when we run out of fresh and I would have
> > no trouble just using that all the time. I also keep UHT cream for the rare
> > times we use it.
>
> By UHT, do you mean the irradiated stuff you store at room temperature
> in boxes? We still can't get irradiated food at markets in the USA,
> which would make fresh food storage a lot easier. The military uses it
> a lot, though.
>
> For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
> with my first name and last initial.
I was able to get some at the local Grocery Outlet a while back, they
were selling 1 liter packages $1 for 2 packages as I recall. I don't
use/drink milk but my son said it tasted fine in his cereal. Of
course this was a one time thing, you never know what Grocery Outlet
will have (it's like a Big Lots but for groceries and only in a few
states on the west coast).
Seerialmom
> Ann wrote:
> > Wegmans supermarket chain in the northeast began selling irradiated beef
> > in 2002. I never bought it, but the last I noticed, it was still in the
> > meat case.
>
> The same meat!? WOW, that irradiation IS some preserver, huh? LOL
heheh...I was thinking the same thing!
Rod Speed
> Seerialmom <seeri...@yahoo.com> wrote
>> Milk can be frozen
> How long can it last in frozen block state?
A year or so fine. Really depends on when you decide you
dont like the taste anymore and thats a very personal thing.
> Forever?
Nothing lasts forever, including you |-)
Neon John
>On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:49:00 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Neon John
><n...@never.com> wrote:
>
>>A pressure canning cycle takes about 45 minutes so a cycle uses
>>2.1*0.75 = 1.6kWh of electricity.
>
>
>What are you pressure cooking for 45 minutes? I don't think that meat even
>needs to be pressure cooked for that long.
That's the whole time the burner is on and includes heating up the water and
the contents before anything starts to boil.
45 minutes is a SWAG. May be more or less. I was just looking for orders of
magnitude numbers.
>
>I make a huge batch of blackberry jam about every three years, it only goes in
>the pressure cooker for 5 minutes but I pressure cooker is not needed for jam.
>I'm sure it costs less to can it then it costs to make and store freezer jam for
>three years. This is a jam year the supplies are running low but the black
>berries will be ripe next month.
I don't keep anything past a year. I still have these visions that haunt me
of those 5-10 year old green beans that my granny would sometimes dig out of
the cellar and cook. Bleached white and yuck!
I'm sure that jams would be OK longer than a year but I generally don't do
those. I have a nice friend who keeps me stocked in freezer jams. She even
makes 'em with Splenda (I'm a diabetic).
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my disk?
BR
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> On Jul 12, 4:09 pm, Jonathan Grobe wrote:
>> Since I live several miles from the nearest grocery
>> store and since gas prices are rapidly increasing, I
>> have been thinking I should increase the time between
>> trips to the grocery store. The problem is perishables.
>> While some can be frozen, others can't.
>>
>> Any thoughts on the longest interval one should have
>> between trips? (For me it looks like milk would be
>> the determining factor).
>>
>> What is you policy on this? What are you freezing because
>> of the freshness problem...
>>
>
> Island Reds or buy some powered eggs boxes.
>
I go once a week. Since I don't use milk for a beverage, just cooking,
powdered milk works just fine. Store bought eggs will keep for two
weeks, so you could stretch it to every other week if you don't have
your own hens.
--
Remove the TOS star ship captain to reply privately.
Neon John
>On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:49:00 -0400, in misc.consumers.frugal-living Neon John
><n...@never.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>At first blush, it would appear that canning has almost a 10:1 cost advantage,
>>though the absolute dollar amount is very small in either case - using the
>>current electric rate of $.073970/kWh*, that's $3.73 for canning, $34.69 for
>>freezing. But that doesn't figure in the cost of jars. Quart jars were close
>>to a dollar a jar last year but let's say $0.75 to account for some reuse and
>>to offset the cost of zip-lock bags for freezing. 225 jars * $0.75 = $168.75.
>
>
>Jars can be reused many times. Rings can be re-used for years and years.. only
>the lids should be purchased every month. One of my Grandma's even re-used the
>rings but I don't. I am using both of my dead Grandma's jars and even some of
>my Great-Grandma's canning jars in addition to some that I bought. Sometimes a
>jar will burst so I toss it out and use a different one. Jars are often quite
>cheap in the thrift shops. Not too many people can stuff anymore so if you ask
>around you can find probably find some free jars.
Oh, I know. Both methods can be optimized. I could buy new high efficiency
freezers or just better insulate the ones that I have. Again, I was just
piddling with numbers, looking for order-of-magnitude. If canning had turned
out to be 20X or 50X or 100X cheaper than freezing then I'd take a second
look. Since they're in the same order of magnitude, even when ignoring the
cost of jars and since the cost in either case is minimal, I'll stick with the
kind of food I like best - fresh from the freezer :-)
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Save a tree, kill a beaver
Larry Caldwell
(Neon John) says...
> I'm sure that jams would be OK longer than a year but I generally don't do
> those.
IMO, jellies start to go 'off' pretty quickly. I try not to keep home
canned jellies longer than a year, even with vitamin C as a
preservative.
Rod Speed
> Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote:
>> Oh, I know. Both methods can be optimized. I could buy new high
>> efficiency freezers or just better insulate the ones that I have.
>> Again, I was just piddling with numbers, looking for
>> order-of-magnitude. If canning had turned out to be 20X or 50X or
>> 100X cheaper than freezing then I'd take a second look. Since
>> they're in the same order of magnitude, even when ignoring the cost
>> of jars and since the cost in either case is minimal, I'll stick
>> with the kind of food I like best - fresh from the freezer :-)
> Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you
> do with all that frozen food when the power goes out?
Dont open the freezers while the power is off.
> Maybe it does not go out very often in your area but it goes out a lot here
What matters is how long it stays off for when it does go off.
> and I don't have a generator anymore.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
> If I want you're advice I'll rattle the bars of your cage..
So stupid it cant even work out what newsgroups are about.
FarmI
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>between
>>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>powdered - yuckie poo!
> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.
I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking, but how do you use it
in baking? And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?
FarmI
news:gptl74l0qqsau8c93...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:24:04 +1000, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>
>>> Makes more sense to get a bread machine and bake more often.
>>
>>Not to us. We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
>>bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up
>>and
>>we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
>>
>
> Tiny
> little loaves that tasted nothing like what I make by hand, even using the
> same recipe.
I agree, but we must be wrong in this :-)) It seems that you, in common
with me, must be "foolish" and have "mindlessly silly hangups".
Do you think you and I need to say 10 times a day: "I love bread machines"
till we get over our preference for bread made the old fashioned way?
> I make plain old French bread almost exclusively. I'd much rather spend a
> day
> every so often baking, vacuum packaging and freezing a large quantity than
> I
> would fooling with the machine, even if the product came out the same.
There is something elemental in baking bread by hand. I like the rythm of
it as well as the outcome.
> I generally like kitchen gadgets but a bread machine is a glaring
> exception.
I like certain kitchen gadgets. I couuldn't live without my food processor
but a bread machine was just a great lumping obstruction that I grew very
quickly to dislike intensely.
FarmI
>>Others have answered the question a from one of the cites (the wiki one) I
>>found that UHT is supposedly available in the US. I know you know and
>>like
>>all sorts of food so it surprses me that you haven't come across UHT. I
>>assume it's not around where you are? How common is it?
>
> UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf space it
> gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly scorched
> taste.
It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so, I'd
have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
more popular than powdered?
> I used to keep some in my RV for cooking but now I just keep some frozen
> packets of regular milk in the freezer.
I've not tried freezing milk (haven't yet needed to do so). Must do so as
an experiment.
>>I've always seen lots of references both here in this thread and other US
>>dominated ngs and on sites that makes me think that powdered milk seems to
>>be much used in the US. Is that so?
>
> Seems so, again, judging by the shelf space it gets.
>
>>
>>I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>between
>>UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>powdered - yuckie poo!
>
> I couldn't imagine drinking the stuff (but then, I can't stand milk
> anyway)
> but it's OK for cooking as long as you add enough butter to replenish the
> butterfat.
What sort of recipes do you use it in? I can't ever recall seeing a recipe
that uses powdered milk.
The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
> huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors cook
> with it too, so we usually split a box.
:-)) Can't you get the Nestle powdered milk which would be in about a 1 lb
tin?
FarmI
news:6fa6cb59-2db8-4510...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> "FarmI" wrote:
>
>> think for me the only problem would be bananas. ?
>> There is no way to store them in any way.
>Bananas freeze exceptionally well...
Yebbut, they don't taste like fresh bananas. If ya want a fresh banana, a
frozen one just won't do.
FarmI
> On Jul 14, 12:24 am, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
> We prefer a bigger loaf than machines make as we eat a lot of
>> bread, we hated the hole in the bottom of the bread and the cleaning up
>> and
>> we prefer the flavour of oven baked bread.
>
> I have two bread machines (friend gave me one she wasn't using) - so I
> make two types of bread at a time, baked 'em in oven. No holes, and
> they almost jump out of my nonstick loaf pans.
My bread pans are old fashioned ones that aren't non stick, but I never have
trouble with bread sticking after years of regualr oiling and baking :-)
Mind you though I nearly died at the price of the blasted things when I
bouhght a new pan recently - $35 for the 'real' bread pan with the folded
metal corners!!!!!
> I could never get the hang of kneading, so this system makes me
> happy.
I did a lot of pottery in my youth so I have no trouble kneading a small
batch. It's the big batches I can't manage due to some age related loss of
strength.
I don't run out of bread, I like the product, and I'm not
> paying those store prices. I have no idea if using the big oven vs.
> letting the machines do the baking is more expensive, but I refuse to
> analyze every action.
Wise that, very wise.
Rod Speed
> <un...@example.com> wrote in message
>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:09:12 +1000, in misc.consumers.frugal-living
>> "FarmI"
>> <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
>
>>> I hate powdered milk in all forms. It's cheap but given the choice
>>> between
>>> UHT or powdered, I'd choose UHT every time. Fresh is still best but
>>> powdered - yuckie poo!
>
>> Powdered milk is good for backpacking and baking.
> I can see why it would be convenient for backpacking,
Much more convenient to not bother with milk at all when backpacking.
> but how do you use it in baking?
Just use an appropriate amount of the powder in with the other
dry ingredients and use water to get the consistency right.
> And why would you use it in baking if you weren't out camping?
So you dont have to fart around with real milk, because it stores indefinitely.
Neon John
>Ok one last argument from me then.. :) What do you do with all that frozen
>food when the power goes out? Maybe it does not go out very often in your area
>but it goes out a lot here and I don't have a generator anymore.
There's an uninterruptible power supply in the basement connected to about 800
amp-hours (24 volts) of batteries. It powers my cabin's "vital bus". Lights
(all CF), refrigeration, computer, fan on the wood stove and a few other
things. That'll last about 24 hours. After that, out come the generators. As
in, more than one for redundancy and diversity of fuel supplies. One is
diesel, the other is gasoline with an LP option.
The freezers are on wheels so if the outage happens in winter, I just roll
them outside and let mother nature keep things cold. One advantage to these
old R12 units is that they WILL work in the cold. If it's only in the 30s
outside, they'll still keep the interiors at -20.
I just got a larger UPS that should run my well pump long enough for a short
shower or a few toilet uses. After that, the generators come out again. In
the summer the generators come out pretty quickly so that I can run the AC. I
have central AC but I usually use a portable AC (the kind that has a flex duct
in the window to carry out the hot air) to cool just one "survival" room.
Power here is third world quality so we have to be prepared. I average about
10 hours a week without power, winter and summer. Right-of-way maintenance?
We don't need no steenking ROW maintenance.
The longest that it's been out in modern times was 9 days during the '93
blizzard. More typically, a tree falls across the line somewhere during a
rain storm and it takes most of a day for the co-op contractor to amble up and
cut it down. An average ice storm is good for a couple of days.
I got my (new, blems) batteries and UPSs at a scrap metal yard and paid scrap
prices for them so I have little invested. I use this architecture so that
battery power operates the cabin most of the time.
The generator gets cranked only to rapid-charge the batteries, to run the well
pump, to cook (electric stove) or to shower. I can recharge the pack in just
a few hours and then turn the generator off. It runs either fully loaded or
is off. None of that idling all day with little load, burning half a gallon
an hour of fuel.
I normally keep a 2 week supply of fuel in drums on hand. Plus the 500 gallon
propane tank. Plus both the motorhome and the medium duty diesel cube van are
kept full, about 80 gallons between 'em. The MH has a generator too. If
something bad happens to my cabin (tree through the roof or something like
that) I can retreat to the motorhome and be comfortable, if a bit crowded.
My philosophy on this system is that I'm not going to let power outages
inconvenience me or cause me to change my daily activities. Other than having
to haul fuel about once a year, I've succeeded.
Ya gotta be tough to live in them thar Tennessee hills! :-)
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
If stupidity hurt then there'd be Aspirin in the salt shakers.
Neon John
>It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so, I'd
>have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
>more popular than powdered?
Cost. The UHT milk is very expensive. TN is a poor state, particularly in
the rural areas. Lots of folks on food stamps and even more working poor.
Powdered milk is quite cheap for the amount it makes.
Around here, logging was the traditional other work besides farming. Most of
the land is owned by the forest service. When the eco-nazis took over the FS
and, contrary to law, they quit leasing logging tracts, work dried up. Now,
you farm, you drive long distances to other towns, you're retired or for a
very few folks, you make money on tourism. Ahhh, tourism, the universal
savior for every area that's run off all its industry. NOT!
>What sort of recipes do you use it in? I can't ever recall seeing a recipe
>that uses powdered milk.
I treat it like whole milk once I add the butter. Puddings, gravy, mashed
potatoes, mac and cheese, etc. As long as the dish doesn't rely heavily on
the taste of milk (Ice cream, for instance), it works pretty well.
I still lean toward frozen milk but my freezers are kinda full right now so I
haven't frozen any in awhile.
>
>The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
>> huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors cook
>> with it too, so we usually split a box.
>
>:-)) Can't you get the Nestle powdered milk which would be in about a 1 lb
>tin?
Not conveniently. The (singular) grocery store in town is a Save-a-Lot. In
case you're not familiar, it's a chain that caters to the poor. Cheap house
brands and almost no name brands. Their beef would need a chain saw to cut
but amazingly enough, they carry top of the line IBP brand pork. That store
is 25 miles away.
The closest Wallyworld (on paved roads, at least) is about 60 miles away. Even
they only have the large boxes. I dream of having a Publix or similar premium
store within driving range like I had in Atlanta. Of course, I'd not give up
this paradise for all the Publixes on earth.
Every couple of months I get up a group order with a couple of neighbors, load
up my cube van with coolers and trek about 100 miles to a Sam's club and/or a
restaurant supply warehouse. There I get my quality food like choice+ beef,
whole chickens by the case and stuff like that. I like to buy commodities
like ketchup and mustard and BBQ sauce in case lots of #10 cans. So much
cheaper that way. I'll open a can, split it into several portions and either
freeze or refrigerate them, depending on the keeping qualities of each.
Frozen veggies are another area where restaurant case-lots are vastly cheaper
than at the supermarket, and frankly, they taste just about as good as what I
freeze myself. 20 lbs of kernel corn, green beans, limas, peas, etc., lasts a
LONG time.
Hmm, this post sounds a little negative. It isn't. I love this life and
don't view the periodic long trek to the store as a negative. Something to
look forward to. Plus there's no money leaking away at the C-store for junk
food and such.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
There is much pleasure in useless knowledge. 唯ertrand Russell
Neon John
>> I could never get the hang of kneading, so this system makes me
>> happy.
>
>I did a lot of pottery in my youth so I have no trouble kneading a small
>batch. It's the big batches I can't manage due to some age related loss of
>strength.
A low table would probably help. I have a genuine 500 lb laminated maple
butcher's block in my kitchen. When I got it I had the top planed down to get
rid of the deep dish and rough surface from years of commercial use. That
plus my 6'7" size means that it falls below my crotch. A bit low for meat
cutting but perfect for dough kneading. I can put all my weight through my
shoulders onto the dough. My hands and elbows are arthritic so I don't even
try to muscle it around like I used to.
You might try a lower table or else find something to stand on to elevate you
a few inches.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
I'm so cool, I'm afraid to catch cold.
m...@privacy.net
>There's an uninterruptible power supply in the basement connected to about 800
>amp-hours (24 volts) of batteries. It powers my cabin's "vital bus". Lights
>(all CF), refrigeration, computer, fan on the wood stove and a few other
>things. That'll last about 24 hours. After that, out come the generators. As
>in, more than one for redundancy and diversity of fuel supplies. One is
>diesel, the other is gasoline with an LP option.
Neon John I'm always amazed at how well EQUIPPED you
are!! You must have tons of stuff sitting around your
house and don't mind that, yes?
I'm of the nature that I try and avoid owning things if
possible and wonder if that is wrong approach. I try
and live lean and mean.... but it does bite me in the
ass.... making me "depend" too much on supply lines and
such.
What is your philosophy on having/owning bunch of stuff
like this? You don't mind it taking up space or having
to move it around?
Dave
> / milk, however, I'm not sure there is anything else worthwhile at the
> convenience store. I'm convinced they are primarily in business to sell
> cigarettes & lottery tickets.
Near us, there is a small supermarket / large convenience store that used to
sell gasoline, beer, cigarettes and lottery tickets, along with just about
anything else you'd find in a grocery store (produce, meat, bread, dairy
products, etc.). If you were desperate enough (kinda pricey) you could do
your whole weekly shopping trip there.
A few months ago, I went there for gas, and all the pumps were marked out of
order.
Later, I went in for a lottery ticket on my way home. All the gas pumps
were still out of order, and I was informed that they lost their lottery
license.
Last time I stopped in there (don't remember why?), The gas pumps were out
of order, and there was a large sign on the front door stating "No Beer,
Cigarettes, or Lottery".
So now they are a convenience store that just carries food items, nothing
else. Don't know how long they will be open. Don't know why they are open
NOW, really. Place was dead last time I drove by. No customers.
None. -Dave
Dave
>
> Here in PA state minimum price is $4.10 a gallon.
>
>
NY
Don't tell me PA sets state minimum price on MILK???? Most convenience
stores sell cheap milk gallons, this isn't a NY thing, I've seen it all over
the U.S. -Dave
Dave
> Another avenue that I'm experimenting with is turning powdered milk back
> into
> whole milk by adding butter.
Adding WHAT?!? What's sold as whole milk in supermarkets isn't whole milk,
it's milk that has had most of the cream removed. I don't know what
powdered milk is, but suspect it's probably 2% milk, before the powdering
process. If you want to turn powdered milk into something resembling whole
milk, you'd have to find about a cup or more of CREAM to add to each
allon. -Dave
Dave
> reconstitute powdered milk and add a little canned cow, it even gets
> almost drinkable. It's good enough to pour over cereal.
That sounds like a better idea than butter. -Dave
Jonathan Grobe
>
> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so, I'd
> have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
> more popular than powdered?
What are the costs of regular milk vs UHT vs powdered milk vs
condensed milk, etc--comparing them after them after the water
has been added...so they are all equivolent say to a gallon
of fresh milk?
--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com
Ann
> "Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
<...>
>> UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf space
>> it gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly
>> scorched taste.
>
> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
> I'd have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it
> isn't more popular than powdered?
There is some apples-and-oranges here. NFDM is a "replacement" for skim,
not whole, milk. So, once someone has made the transition to skim milk,
what's the point in paying for refrigerated storage and transportation
of all that water weight? A large box of NFDM weighs 4 pounds and makes 5
gallons (approx 40#) of liquid milk.
<...>
Ann
<...>
> The closest Wallyworld (on paved roads, at least) is about 60 miles away.
> Even they only have the large boxes. I dream of having a Publix or
> similar premium store within driving range like I had in Atlanta. Of
> course, I'd not give up this paradise for all the Publixes on earth.
In my experience, rural Walmarts are over-rated (or is that under-rated?)
on grocery prices. There is a super-store approx 10 miles S, but I'm
fortunate to have chain supermarkets approx 25 miles N. (The people in
the southern part of the county are pretty much stuck with Walmart,
without a long trip.)
The only regular purchases I find consistently cost less at Walmart are
Jalapeno peppers, Hershey dark chocolate syrup, their store brand salsa,
and bulk mushrooms. The only time I buy meat there is when it's 1/3 off
because it's near the use-by date. And one has to read the nutritional
label because some of their meat is "plumped" with salt solution.
The prices on bread and freezer case prepared food can run 15% higher than
at the super store by the Home Depot approx 30 miles N. (Both stores are
at a (different) exit/entrance along a soon-to-be interstate highway so
transportation cost is no excuse.) Where Walmart is ahead of the curve is
in raising grocery prices. They used to be the place to buy brand name pet
food. Four weeks ago, a 13oz can of Friskies cat food was 1/3 over last
year's prince. Sunday, it had gone up 28% more. (Since the % of shelf
space for their store brand has been steadily increasing, Imo some of the
name brand increases in to convince us to switch.)
I understand that Walmart has their stock price to be concerned about, but
they're closing in on greedy.
Ann
>
>> Another avenue that I'm experimenting with is turning powdered milk back
>> into
>> whole milk by adding butter.
>
> Adding WHAT?!? What's sold as whole milk in supermarkets isn't whole
> milk, it's milk that has had most of the cream removed. I don't know what
> powdered milk is, but suspect it's probably 2% milk, before the powdering
> process.
It's what the box says it is - Non-fat dry milk - Total fat 0g.
Fat-containing powdered milk couldn't be stored long term without a bunch
of stabilizer to keep the fat from going rancid. (Iirc, dried
fat-containing milk is used in commercial baking, etc.)
Ann
> On 2008-07-15, FarmI <ask@itshall> wrote:
>>
>> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>> I'd have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it
>> isn't more popular than powdered?
>
> What are the costs of regular milk vs UHT vs powdered milk vs condensed
> milk, etc--comparing them after them after the water has been added...so
> they are all equivolent say to a gallon of fresh milk?
I just paid $14.28 for a box of nfdm that alleges to make 5 gallons of
skim milk. I don't know the price of liquid skim milk here.
Sheldon
> "Sheldon" <PENMAR...@aol.com> wrote in message
Many think frozen banana tastes better than fresh. Most of the
world's food supply is eaten preserved in one way or another... don't
you have a fridge... you didn't suck that milk directly from the cow's
teat.
FarmI
>
>>It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>>I'd
>>have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
>>more popular than powdered?
>
> Cost. The UHT milk is very expensive. TN is a poor state, particularly
> in
> the rural areas. Lots of folks on food stamps and even more working poor.
> Powdered milk is quite cheap for the amount it makes.
I know you didn't mean to make your post sound 'negative' but that sounds
quite sad. To me, having to buy powdered milk before buying either UHT or
full cream/skim/low fat milk would equate to grinding poverty.
I think if I was poor, I'd drop something else rather than buy powdered
milk. It might help if I'd not been used to fresh milk but I cna't come at
the stuff.
> Around here, logging was the traditional other work besides farming. Most
> of
> the land is owned by the forest service. When the eco-nazis took over the
> FS
> and, contrary to law, they quit leasing logging tracts, work dried up.
> Now,
> you farm, you drive long distances to other towns, you're retired or for a
> very few folks, you make money on tourism. Ahhh, tourism, the universal
> savior for every area that's run off all its industry. NOT!
And I guess increaisng not as the fuel cost rise.
>>What sort of recipes do you use it in? I can't ever recall seeing a
>>recipe
>>that uses powdered milk.
>
> I treat it like whole milk once I add the butter. Puddings, gravy, mashed
> potatoes, mac and cheese, etc. As long as the dish doesn't rely heavily
> on
> the taste of milk (Ice cream, for instance), it works pretty well.
Interesting. I think I'd just make something else if I didn't have fresh
milk to add. I have one small tin of Nestle powdered milk in my pantry but
it's probalby years past it 'use by' date by now. Will check and give it to
the chooks when I'm finished here as I can't even recall when or even if
I've used it..
>
> I still lean toward frozen milk but my freezers are kinda full right now
> so I
> haven't frozen any in awhile.
>
>>
>>The biggest thing I don't like about it is that it comes in these
>>> huge boxes that would last 3 lifetimes for me. A couple of neighbors
>>> cook
>>> with it too, so we usually split a box.
>>
>>:-)) Can't you get the Nestle powdered milk which would be in about a 1
>>lb
>>tin?
>
> Not conveniently. The (singular) grocery store in town is a Save-a-Lot.
> In
> case you're not familiar, it's a chain that caters to the poor. Cheap
> house
> brands and almost no name brands. Their beef would need a chain saw to
> cut
> but amazingly enough, they carry top of the line IBP brand pork. That
> store
> is 25 miles away.
:-)) So the beef is for stews, curries and casseroles only?
:-)) I have a small village near me that offers mnore than we need, but I
was thinking just the other day of what we will do when this place finally
gets too much for us. The thought of going back to even a small village
lifestyle doesn't appeal, so I do know what you mean about lifestyle vs
convenience
FarmI
>>I did a lot of pottery in my youth so I have no trouble kneading a small
>>batch. It's the big batches I can't manage due to some age related loss
>>of
>>strength.
>
> A low table would probably help. I have a genuine 500 lb laminated maple
> butcher's block in my kitchen. When I got it I had the top planed down to
> get
> rid of the deep dish and rough surface from years of commercial use. That
> plus my 6'7" size means that it falls below my crotch. A bit low for meat
> cutting but perfect for dough kneading. I can put all my weight through my
> shoulders onto the dough. My hands and elbows are arthritic so I don't
> even
> try to muscle it around like I used to.
>
> You might try a lower table or else find something to stand on to elevate
> you
> a few inches.
Bingo! You've hit the nail on the head! That is JUST what I need. Thanks
for that suggestion. As soon as I read it, I saw in my mind's eye, just the
thing - a stool from our sauna. We don't use the sauna (except to store our
camping gear in) so I'll dig out the stool and put it in the kitchen. It
was used as a stepping stool to allow access to the higher seats so one
could really bake oneself.
FarmI
news:slrng7pk2q...@worf.netins.net...
> On 2008-07-15, FarmI <ask@itshall> wrote:
>>
>> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>> I'd
>> have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it isn't
>> more popular than powdered?
>
> What are the costs of regular milk vs UHT vs powdered milk vs
> condensed milk, etc--comparing them after them after the water
> has been added...so they are all equivolent say to a gallon
> of fresh milk?
UHT is more expensive than fresh but I think that condensed/ evaporated
canned would be more expensive than either. Dunno about powdered, will
check if I go to the shop today.
FarmI
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 17:39:58 +1000, FarmI wrote:
>> "Neon John" <n...@never.com> wrote in message
> <...>
>>> UHT is available here but not widely used, judging from the shelf space
>>> it gets. I've been told by milk drinkers that it has a slightly
>>> scorched taste.
>>
>> It does have a slightly different flavour than fresh milk, but even so,
>> I'd have to rate it as far better than powdered milk. Any ideas why it
>> isn't more popular than powdered?
>
> There is some apples-and-oranges here. NFDM is a "replacement" for skim,
> not whole, milk.
??? Do you mean that when an American uses the term "powdered milk" they
mean the equivalent of powdered skim milk?
If you do mean that, I'm even more mystified as to why anyone would bother
to use the stuff.
So, once someone has made the transition to skim milk,
> what's the point in paying for refrigerated storage and transportation
> of all that water weight? A large box of NFDM weighs 4 pounds and makes 5
> gallons (approx 40#) of liquid milk.
I'd wonder why anyone would bother to make the transition to skim milk at
all. Skim milk so alters the taste and the texture it's easier to just go
without 'milk' rather than use skim. Changing to lower fat milk, I can
understand for an adult as it still has some taste of milk and operates like
milk in cooking, but skim, no. And children need full cream milk, which I
guess is less of an issue for all us regualrs here who seem to all be old
farts.