Separate hot water heater rather than off the furnace
Raff
furnace. Considering the price of oil is it worth it to switch to
electric hot water rather than the hot water supplied by the furnace?
Dave
"Raff" <raff...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1daac085-f048-4c73...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
>I have an oil fired steam heat furnace with the hot water off the
> furnace. Considering the price of oil is it worth it to switch to
> electric hot water rather than the hot water supplied by the furnace?
No, unless you are willing to fork out the bucks for a tankless water
heater. -Dave
clams_casino
Any feel for having a tankless vs. gas heater tank installed? Is one
significantly cheaper over the long run?
mel...@my-deja.com
> Dave wrote:
>
> > "Raff" <raff1...@comcast.net> wrote in message
Supposedly the tankless is cheaper because it's not heating water 24/7
but only when you need it. Ours was the same price as a tank type
($300) but the tankless carries a 12 year warrantee due to stainless
steel construction where the tank type rotted out every year with our
bad water - you do the math, we are already ahead of that game but for
a different reason than fuel economics.
The OP needs to sit down get some real numbers from neighbors, friends
about what an electric one costs to run and use in his local area.
And compare that to oil prices. He might be better off right where he
is at or an electric tankless might be the ticket? They do come in
both types along with a propane flavor (ours) as well.
The tankless type is best placed directly under the sink that you use
most since you will have several feet of cold water to run away in
order to get suitable water for washing of hands, etc. It's a real
pain to wait 30 seconds each time you want to rinse a dish and do it
comfortably in the winter time for example. 5 seconds is acceptable,
30 is not.
The manufacturers really want to push you into buying 3 times the
tankless water heater you really need, we never ran any other water
when someone was taking a shower for example so we don't need any more
than 3.2 gallons of hot water per minute generated ever - tell me why
I should by an 8 gallon per minute heater again and have that argument
make any sense what so ever, I dare you. The well won't even make 5
gallons per minute. We probably only really use 2 gallons per minute
of hot water ever, so the smallest (and cheapest) one they make did
the whole house just fine. If you have an estate or eight bedrooms
with bathrooms to match then maybe you should go for the bigger ones.
Lou
"clams_casino" <PeterG...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:rLIsk.9556$_s1....@newsfe07.iad...
I usually do a first check at the Sears website. You can get a 40 gallon,
natural gas water heater, five star user rating, for $339.99 (doubtless
there are cheaper models) with an annual Energy Guide cost of operation
$309.
Sears apparently doesn't sell tankless heaters (at least, their site search
didn't turn one up) so I went to the Home Depot site. The cheapest natural
gas tankless I found there was $999 (45 degree rise in temperature at 7.4
gpm - note that if the water entering the system is 60 degrees, that means
your "hot" water would be only 105 degrees unless the actual flow rate was
less).
No idea what installation costs are for either type of system, but since you
don't have a conventional heater at present, presumably the plumbing costs
for both water and gas lines would be comparable.
No Energy Guide ticket, so annual operating costs are unknown, but the blurb
says save "up to" 30% on fuel cost compared to a standard gas water heater.
I don't know what "standard" or "up to" mean in this case, but we can play
with some numbers.
30% of $309 is $92.70, let's call it $93 in fuel savings per year. $999 -
$339.99 is $659.01, call it $659 more for the tankless model. So it will
take 659 / 93, or a bit over 7 years for the extra cost of the tankless to
be recouped in fuel savings. Not counting all those other things that
people throw in that muddy the waters - possible rebates on energy efficient
appliances, opportunity costs, loan interest, etc.
Is it worth it? That's a value judgment only you can make. And I'm sure
you can vary these numbers quite a bit by looking at different models of
each type.
Lou
"clams_casino" <PeterG...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:rLIsk.9556$_s1....@newsfe07.iad...
>
> Any feel for having a tankless vs. gas heater tank installed? Is one
> significantly cheaper over the long run?
According to http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/waterheating.htm the
cheapest 13 year total cost water heater is an electric heat pump water
heater ($4,125). I don't know if that takes into account the cost of the
heat source - in the summer I suppose that's just the ambient air in the
area where the heater is located, but in the winter that heat ultimately
comes from the furnace.
The most expensive is a conventional oil fired storage heater ($11,299).
The original poster would apparently be well advised to look at alternatives
to his present system.
mel...@my-deja.com
> "clams_casino" <PeterGrif...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
>
> news:rLIsk.9556$_s1....@newsfe07.iad...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dave wrote:
>
> > > "Raff" <raff1...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Lou, I'm afraid you are just what they are looking for, someone who
thinks he is informed but sadly is not. How would you recalculate the
$659 dollar figure if the tankless were the same price or cheaper than
the standard water heater?
Back when, it was tankless.org and I know I paid $300 for a Bosh 1000P
model, I see now it's a different url and they don't sell directly to
the public anymore but if you care to deal in factory refurbished
units you can have a point of use electric for less than $200 TODAY.
I'll leave it to you to as homework find this bargin for yourself.
And recalculate that 7 year thing you were talking about.
http://www.boschhotwater.com/
Dave
But as someone else wrote, you don't need a ~8GPM tankless unit, you need a
much cheaper ~3GPM tankless unit. That makes sense, as I can't imagine ever
needing more than 3GPM of hot water! For a small family, btw. -Dave
Charlie
54c984...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:
> I have an oil fired steam heat furnace with the hot water off the
> furnace. Considering the price of oil is it worth it to switch to
> electric hot water rather than the hot water supplied by the furnace?
If you choose an electric tankless model, be aware that you may have to
upgrade your electrical service. The one I saw at HD required two 40 amp
240 electrical circuits.-Charlie
Lou
<mel...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:309f7743-67ab-4bcc...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>Lou, I'm afraid you are just what they are looking for, someone who
>thinks he is informed but sadly is not. How would you recalculate the
>$659 dollar figure if the tankless were the same price or cheaper than
>the standard water heater?
I'm not in the market for a water heater. If I was, what I posted
illustrates the kind of thinking I'd go through to help judge the relative
worth of various options, but no way would I choose a heater on the basis of
a five minute web search.
Tank heaters have an energy guide label. If tankless heaters do, I haven't
seen them. It makes me somewhat wary - if tankless systems are really
significantly cheaper to operate, or significantly cheaper over the
appliance life cycle, you'd think that hard numbers would be available all
over the place - but I don't much in the way of real numbers.
>Back when, it was tankless.org and I know I paid $300 for a Bosh 1000P
>model, I see now it's a different url and they don't sell directly to
>the public anymore but if you care to deal in factory refurbished
>units you can have a point of use electric for less than $200 TODAY.
>I'll leave it to you to as homework find this bargin for yourself.
>And recalculate that 7 year thing you were talking about.
>http://www.boschhotwater.com/
I assume you're referring to Bosch, not Bosh. I'm more than willing to be
convinced - after all, the tankless idea seems sensible - but that's not
enough data to do it.
A brand new Bosch AE12 point of use electric tankless can be had for
$269.95, refurbished are $60 less. A new 1000P-NG (natural gas) runs $349.95
(and what's a standing pilot doing in a supposedly efficient appliance?).
The refurbished electric is pretty close to the $200 you mention. Of
course, it must be hardwired for 240 volt service. I'm not quite sure what
the definition of point of use is, but in my house there are three baths,
one kitchen, and one laundry room. That sounds like five units, which comes
to over $1000 for the refurbished units and $1350 for the new before
installation costs for plumbing and wiring. (If point of use means each hot
water delivery pipe, in my case that would be 10 units, one to each sink,
shower, the dishwasher, and the washing machine.) The natural gas model
would run just under $1750. Installation would mean running gas plumbing
all over the house, and the installation of 4 inch double wall vents at each
location - no idea what that would cost, but I'll bet it would double the
overall cost.
The electric unit will raise the water temperature 55 degrees at a flow rate
of 1.5 gpm - that sounds like a pretty cool shower with a 2.5 gpm
showerhead. It'll do 70 degrees at a flow rate of 0.75 gpm, but that sounds
like a pretty spare shower to me. The gas unit provides a bigger
temperature increase - at least you'd probably be able to take a decent
shower.
Nowhere do I see anything explicit on operating costs for these things -
maybe the elimination of standby losses make the high installation cost
worth it, but in the absence of data, how do you make that evaluation? To
some people, the trade offs may be worth it. If I had a sink at the end of
a long plumbing run it might be worth it for that one sink. But at first
blush, fitting up a year round family dwelling this way doesn't look like
any bargain.