Woman is content living in 84-sq. ft. tiny dream home.
Useful Info
Propane from a small container.
$10k for the entire house.
No mortgage...
Wait... no debt? Isn't that un-American? Aren't we all supposed to be
enslaved to the banks?
See the video at http://Muvy.org
Rod Speed
> Electricity from solar.
> Propane from a small container.
> $10k for the entire house.
> No mortgage...
> Wait... no debt? Isn't that un-American? Aren't we all supposed to be enslaved to the banks?
Trailers have been like that for centurys now.
> See the video at http://Muvy.org
Fuck off.
edi...@netpath.net
> Electricity from solar.
> Propane from a small container.
> $10k for the entire house.
> No mortgage...
It's very possible. After all, lots of Americans - especially men
- for generations have CHOSEN to live for days at a time in small
hunting cabins, fishing cabins, po-up vacation trailers, etc.
No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
Just A User
I saw it featured on a major media channel. While this is along the idea
of something I would like to put on my land in TX, I do think 84sq ft is
a bit on the small side for 1 person. I have messed around with floor
plans for small cabins and came up with a 500sq ft floor that seemed
livable. Actually I started with about 1000sq ft and worked my way down
to about 500. Very simple rectangular design, 1 bed, 1 bath, kitchen,
dining / living area. Tried to keep the design /green/ I.E. solar power,
supplemental water via rain water harvesting, composting toilet, etc.
etc. etc. I figured I could do the whole thing for about $10k using
recycled stuff.
Rich256
> Useful Info wrote:
> > Electricity from solar.
> > Propane from a small container.
> > $10k for the entire house.
> > No mortgage...
>
> > Wait... no debt? Isn't that un-American? Aren't we all supposed to be
> > enslaved to the banks?
>
>
> I saw it featured on a major media channel. While this is along the idea
> of something I would like to put on my land in TX, I do think 84sq ft is
> a bit on the small side for 1 person. I have messed around with floor
> plans for small cabins and came up with a 500sq ft floor that seemed
> livable. Actually I started with about 1000sq ft and worked my way down
> to about 500. Very simple rectangular design, 1 bed, 1 bath, kitchen,
> dining / living area. Tried to keep the design /green/ I.E. solar power,
> supplemental water via rain water harvesting, composting toilet, etc.
> etc. etc. I figured I could do the whole thing for about $10k using
> recycled stuff.
An Alternative:
Myal
its kinda sad that people are reduced to that in "wealthy" lands
Anthony Matonak
> Electricity from solar.
> Propane from a small container.
> $10k for the entire house.
> No mortgage...
Since I'm against evil spammers, I'll post a link to the actual story.
http://www.komotv.com/news/8499817.html
That said, lots of folks choose to live in various RV's full time
so I can't see as how this is all that unusual. Heck, in large
cities it's not unusual to find apartments this size are the only
ones one can afford.
Anthony
Rod Speed
Nope, its just not feasible to do a one size fits all even in those.
TwoAllBeefPatties
Rod Speed
> http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/
Trailers and RVs make a lot more sense, even shipping containers.
TwoAllBeefPatties
>
> Trailers and RVs make a lot more sense, even shipping containers.
Come on now, where is the adventure in your swagger?
clams casino
>
> Since I'm against evil spammers, I'll post a link to the actual story.
> http://www.komotv.com/news/8499817.html
>
Are you suggesting Useful Info / Sparrow is a low-life slimy spammer?
jheller
JerryD(upstateNY)
lands<<<<<<
They may be happy about it.
Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean other people wouldn't.
I know a bunch of people who live in RV's by choice.
They had homes and sold them.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
Tim Smith
> of something I would like to put on my land in TX, I do think 84sq ft is
> a bit on the small side for 1 person. I have messed around with floor
> plans for small cabins and came up with a 500sq ft floor that seemed
> livable. Actually I started with about 1000sq ft and worked my way down
> to about 500. Very simple rectangular design, 1 bed, 1 bath, kitchen,
> dining / living area. Tried to keep the design /green/ I.E. solar power,
> supplemental water via rain water harvesting, composting toilet, etc.
> etc. etc. I figured I could do the whole thing for about $10k using
> recycled stuff.
I haven't found anything online about this, but on one of those shows
about cool technology on one of the Discovery Channel channels, or maybe
National Geographic, so something similar, they showed student houses at
a university in Europe. They were tiny detached houses, each something
like 110 sq ft. They made very good use of space, and seemed quite
comfortable.
There was a separate bathroom with a toilet and sink. The bathroom was
waterproof and had a drain in the floor, so it also served as the shower
(and that also made it easy to clean). The kitchen had, I seem to
recall, a two burner stove, small fridge, and microwave.
The beds folded into the wall. There were two of them, big enough that
four people could sleep in the house, although two people would be more
comfortable probably.
There was a built-in flatscreen TV for entertainment.
There was a table that could be used for dinning or as a work area, and
it folded away when not in use.
It seemed to work very well. There wasn't a lot of space total, but
because of the way things folded away to reconfigure the space, there
seemed to be plenty for whatever you needed at any given time.
The beds could be used for seating, too, and with it configured for
maximum seating, they showed a student having a party. He managed to
get something like 9 guests in there, with everyone being reasonably
comfortable.
--
--Tim Smith
larry
>>to about 500. Very simple rectangular design, 1 bed, 1 bath, kitchen,
>>dining / living area.
Isn't that a 1 br apartment?
I call a 1400 sqft house a 1 br apt with three rooms of
storage. A 84 sqft house is a good idea. No accumulation of
stuff, and no one staying over ;-)
-larry / dallas
Don K
news:65Bmi.46567$5j1....@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
On the contrary, if someone did stay, they'd either be staying over you
or under you.
Don
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
>> TwoAllBeefPatties <kwo...@hotmail.com> wrote
>>> http://www.tumbleweedhouses.com/
>> Trailers and RVs make a lot more sense, even shipping containers.
> Come on now, where is the adventure in your swagger?
More adventure in any of those than that.
Rod Speed
Not too practical today.
Rod Speed
Yeah, saw that, but an RV or trailer makes a lot more sense because its easier to move too.
vz24_...@yahoo.com
newspaper article as it appeared;
http://www.theolympian.com/news/story/158109.html
Beyond that, who cares? I live on my sailboat in Olympia, and anytime
I feel like it, I can go "off grid." I barely use any electricity as
it is. Those of us who live on boats or in self contained trailers
knows this is not newsworthy. For the rest of the idiot sheep out
there who cannot live without all the "luxuries" of "civilized life"
well it is newsworthy. Probably for powerboaters too who can't live
without huge engines and generators and whatnot.
Steve
S/V Libertarian
Paul Maffia
news:W8-dnSNf0YTdKgfb...@cavtel.net...
> American Indian TeePee , English settlers first homes?
Teepees were used by American Plains Indians. English settlers were on the
East coast and never saw a teepee.
Dennis
wrote:
Where's the bathroom?
Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin
Myal
I am happy whatever I live in , spent years in a caravan , lived under a
tarp for many months , in a bus converted to mobile home and now have a
house , Im adaptable , easily pleased and love the convienience of
travel and easy accomodations .
It still saddens me to see folk who live in shitty cramped conditions
out of nescesity rather than by choice .
with so many billions being spent on killing the poorest folk there is
in othe r lands , surely a bit of that $$ can bes pent either fixing or
eradicating the poor at home ?
Gary Heston
Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:29:53 -0700, Useful Info <usefu...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>>See the video at http://Muvy.org
It's actually more than 84 square feet; the loft isn't counted in that.
>Where's the bathroom?
Probably in the friends' house her house is in the back yard of.
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/
Yoko Onos' former driver tried to extort $2M from her, threating to
"release embarassing recordings...". What, he has a copy of her album?
Zilbandy
>
>Where's the bathroom?
They show it in the video. My camping tent is bigger than that. LOL
--
Zilbandy
GoodRead
equity loans and lines of credit are commonly used for debt
consolidation, educational expenses, unplanned emergencies, home
improvements, vehicle purchases, and other gifts and purchases.Getting
a home equity loan has never been easier. Traditional banks and
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issues. These services have relationships with little-known lenders,
and are therefore able to secure a loan for anyone, even if your
credit is bad. I've started a new blog called "What you need to know
about
home equity loans - a consumer guide" at http://home-equity-loan-information.blogspot.com/.
I'd appreciate some feedback and I hope it will be of some benefit to
those contemplating a home equity loan.
Rod Speed
> JerryD(upstateNY) wrote:
>> Myal wrote: its kinda sad that people are reduced to that in
>> "wealthy" lands<<<<<<
>>
>>
>> They may be happy about it.
>> Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean other people wouldn't.
>> I know a bunch of people who live in RV's by choice.
>> They had homes and sold them.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I am happy whatever I live in , spent years in a caravan , lived
> under a tarp for many months , in a bus converted to mobile home and
> now have a house , Im adaptable , easily pleased and love the
> convienience of travel and easy accomodations .
>
> It still saddens me to see folk who live in shitty cramped conditions
> out of nescesity rather than by choice .
> with so many billions being spent on killing the poorest folk there is in othe r lands ,
That doesnt happen.
> surely a bit of that $$ can bes pent either fixing or eradicating the poor at home ?
Nope, some will always choose to 'live' like that.
Myal
> Myal <Dum...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>JerryD(upstateNY) wrote:
>>
>>>Myal wrote: its kinda sad that people are reduced to that in
>>>"wealthy" lands<<<<<<
>>>
>>>
>>>They may be happy about it.
>>>Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean other people wouldn't.
>>>I know a bunch of people who live in RV's by choice.
>>>They had homes and sold them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I am happy whatever I live in , spent years in a caravan , lived
>>under a tarp for many months , in a bus converted to mobile home and
>>now have a house , Im adaptable , easily pleased and love the
>>convienience of travel and easy accomodations .
>>
>>It still saddens me to see folk who live in shitty cramped conditions
>>out of nescesity rather than by choice .
>
>
>>with so many billions being spent on killing the poorest folk there is in othe r lands ,
>
>
> That doesnt happen.
>
Riiiggghhhttt ..... OK , I se who I am dealing with , bye ...
Usene...@the-domain-in.sig
ghe...@hiwaay.net says...
> In article <njql93dc5mlbojm11...@4ax.com>,
> Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:29:53 -0700, Useful Info <usefu...@yahoo.com>
> >wrote:
> [ ... ]
> >>See the video at http://Muvy.org
> It's actually more than 84 square feet; the loft isn't counted in that.
> >Where's the bathroom?
> Probably in the friends' house her house is in the back yard of.
I spent a few years in an 8 foot square room, with a sink.
That's 64 square feet. Toilets and showers were down the hall.
No, it wasn't jail. Rather, a low-cost place in a large,
expensive (but fun) city.
An extra 20 square feet could have accomodate a toilet and
shower.
I lived in another place for a few years, that was probably less
than 100 square feet, and had it's own bathroom. Also a cupboard
with two stove burners on top, and a regular fridge. If I pulled
out my bed-inside-couch, it took up more than half the main area.
In the right situation, for the right cost, I would be willing to
live in such places again.
Some people just have a bug in their arse about housing.
Including the whole thing about multiple rooms. I have even
encountered people who claimed that they would commit suicide
before living in a studio flat.
--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum
not the moderator
> On Jul 15, 5:29 pm, Useful Info <useful_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Electricity from solar.
>> Propane from a small container.
>> $10k for the entire house.
>> No mortgage...
>
> - for generations have CHOSEN to live for days at a time in small
> hunting cabins, fishing cabins, po-up vacation trailers, etc.
>
> No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
>
Lots of criminals live in 8x10 ft. cells and survive quite well. They
have a sink and commode, a nice bed to entertain their "buddy", and have
meals prepared for them. The cells are climate controlled and they go
out to eat. The taxpayer picks up the bill. Unfortunately, the cells
aren't mobile, and they aren't allowed to have campfires or pets.
clams casino
>What should you look for when shopping for a home equity loan?
>
Back again with your spam?
Dennis
Not in the video that I saw. Thus my question.
Dennis (evil)
--
"There is a fine line between participation and mockery" - Wally
Anthony Matonak
> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:30:59 -0700, Zilbandy wrote:
>> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 20:48:24 -0700, Dennis wrote:
>>
>>> Where's the bathroom?
>> They show it in the video.
>
Perhaps the have the philosophy of "The world is my bathroom." :)
Anthony
Chloe
"Dennis" <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:243n931etbp5phout...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 21:30:59 -0700, Zilbandy
> <z...@zilbandyREMOVETHIS.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 20:48:24 -0700, Dennis <dg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Where's the bathroom?
>>
>>They show it in the video. My camping tent is bigger than that. LOL
>
> Not in the video that I saw. Thus my question.
In the video I saw they showed a tiny thing that looked like a built-in
potty chair. I assume there's no separate bathroom sink. I don't recall
seeing any kind of shower stall, though.
Nancy
> of something I would like to put on my land in TX, I do think 84sq ft is a
> bit on the small side for 1 person. I have messed around with floor plans
> for small cabins and came up with a 500sq ft floor that seemed livable.
There is a Yahoo group called "cheap shelter" you might be interested in.
Also "Homesteading Today" has a lot of good discussions about small houses.
Nancy, also in Texas
Donna
@mid.individual.net:
>>>
>> American Indian TeePee , English settlers first homes?
>
> Not too practical today.
As practical as you want to be.
--
~Donna
http://www.frugalsewing.com
Curly Surmudgeon
> Electricity from solar.
> Propane from a small container.
> $10k for the entire house.
> No mortgage...
>
> Wait... no debt? Isn't that un-American? Aren't we all supposed to be
> enslaved to the banks?
>
> See the video at http://Muvy.org
I have no mortgage, enough land to provide firewood, a good well and soon
will be off grid. Best of all Bush doesn't rule here.
-- Regards, Curly
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://thegreen.stanleylieber.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> American Indian TeePee , English settlers first homes?
>> Not too practical today.
> As practical as you want to be.
Nope. No privacy for starters.
Rod Speed
>>>> Myal wrote: its kinda sad that people are reduced to that in
>>>> "wealthy" lands<<<<<<
>>>> They may be happy about it.
>>>> Just because you wouldn't like it doesn't mean other people
>>>> wouldn't. I know a bunch of people who live in RV's by choice.
>>>> They had homes and sold them.
>>> I am happy whatever I live in , spent years in a caravan , lived
>>> under a tarp for many months , in a bus converted to mobile home and
>>> now have a house , Im adaptable , easily pleased and love the
>>> convienience of travel and easy accomodations .
>>> It still saddens me to see folk who live in shitty cramped
>>> conditions out of nescesity rather than by choice .
>>> with so many billions being spent on killing the poorest folk there is in othe r lands ,
>> That doesnt happen.
> Riiiggghhhttt .....
Fraid so. That didnt happen even in the Iran/Iraq war,
everyone except the rich got killed, not just the poor.
Same with WW1 and WW2 and in WW1 even quite a few of the rich got killed too.
> OK , I se who I am dealing with , bye ...
Usual mindless fool.
A Veteran
TiVo?
--
when you believe the only tool you have is a hammer.
All problems look like nails.
Zilbandy
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Nope. No privacy for starters.
How much privacy do you need in a house built for one?
--
Zilbandy
Rod Speed
Hopeless impractical in many areas weather wise too.
edi...@netpath.net
> I saw it featured on a major media channel. While this is along the idea
> of something I would like to put on my land in TX, I do think 84sq ft is
> a bit on the small side for 1 person.
How much square footage do college students choose to pay tens of
thousands of dollars yearly for to live in dorms and go to college?
And those students - usually - have a community restroom at one end of
the hall, rather than any in their own room. That woman's situation
sounds a lot less implausible when you think through the college-dorm
example.
> I have messed around with floor
> plans for small cabins and came up with a 500sq ft floor that seemed
> livable.
That's way large - over 20'x20'. That's far more than one student
at an expensive college spends a fortune for to choose to live in if
in a dorm.
rick++
colorado.
They basically have a large room, and when indoor plumbing cam a long,
carved
out a bathroom in the rear. I saw some being used in Telluride, but
dont know
if they are still around. Peole would buy two lots on both sides of
alley, scrape
them off and build a 6000 sqft multi-story McMansion- adjacent to some
of the
dollhouses.
Paul Thomas, CPA
<edi...@netpath.net> wrote
> How much square footage do college students choose to pay tens of
> thousands of dollars yearly for to live in dorms and go to college?
> That's way large - over 20'x20'. That's far more than one student
> at an expensive college spends a fortune for to choose to live in if
> in a dorm.
A point to be made, most college students have their expenses paid by mom
&/or dad.
You'd be surprised to find, I believe, that most college dorm rooms have
more square footage than you expect.
Even sailors on a sub have more total living space (although shared) than 84
sf.
--
Paul A. Thomas, CPA
Athens, Georgia
Sylvester Sweetmeat
news:coGmi.282993$Fk2....@newsfe08.phx...
Man, learn what you be talkin' about before you talk. Every brother got a
ton a roaches all to his self.
miles
>
> Even sailors on a sub have more total living space (although shared) than 84
> sf.
The 84sf figure is misleading. She has a loft bedroom that does not
take up any of the 84sf except for the ladder. Still, pretty tiny house!
Paul Maffia
news:pkRmi.24975$09.1...@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
Paul, that is true on modern Tridents. But in the old pig boats of WWII,
each sailor had a lot less than that. Even the Capt, made do with less.
miles
> I have no mortgage, enough land to provide firewood, a good well and soon
> will be off grid. Best of all Bush doesn't rule here.
You'll join the ranks with Bush then. His house has been off grid for
many years.
Paul Thomas, CPA
"Paul Maffia" <pma...@centurytel.net> wrote
> Paul, that is true on modern Tridents. But in the old pig boats of WWII,
> each sailor had a lot less than that. Even the Capt, made do with less.
Bed space is different than total available living space.
In any event, not a place to bring a date home to.
Donna
@mid.individual.net:
> Nope. No privacy for starters.
Depends on where you build.
Bottom line is it may not be right for you, but it's right for someone.
--
~Donna
http://www.frugalsewing.com
TwoAllBeefPatties
> More adventure in any of those than that.
I know, no room for a bloomin' onion.
NotMe
|
| "Paul Maffia" <pma...@centurytel.net> wrote
| > Paul, that is true on modern Tridents. But in the old pig boats of WWII,
| > each sailor had a lot less than that. Even the Capt, made do with less.
|
|
|
| Bed space is different than total available living space.
|
|
| In any event, not a place to bring a date home to.
Recalls some adventures in a 56 MG midget...
Paul Thomas, CPA
"NotMe" <m...@privacy.net> wrote
> Recalls some adventures in a 56 MG midget...
The hood of a midget has more sf than the interior.
Rod Speed
>> Nope. No privacy for starters.
> Depends on where you build.
Nope.
> Bottom line is it may not be right for you, but it's right for someone.
The modern alternatives make a hell of a lot more sense.
Dean
<edi...@netpath.net> wrote:
>On Jul 15, 5:29 pm, Useful Info <useful_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Electricity from solar.
>> Propane from a small container.
>> $10k for the entire house.
>> No mortgage...
>
> It's very possible. After all, lots of Americans - especially men
>- for generations have CHOSEN to live for days at a time in small
>hunting cabins, fishing cabins, po-up vacation trailers, etc.
>
>No $4 to park! No $6 admission! http://www.INTERNET-GUN-SHOW.com
I am parked as I type, next to a young man who is living in a pickup
camper removed from the pickup, which couldn't have more than 60 sq.
ft. He picks up garbage (and other tasks) in an RV park here in North
Pole, AK.
He also has a dog (beautiful Husky).
Dean
>Rich256 wrote:
>> On Jul 15, 4:24 pm, Just A User <k...@up-yours-spammer.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Useful Info wrote:
>>>
>>>>Electricity from solar.
>>>>Propane from a small container.
>>>>$10k for the entire house.
>>>>No mortgage...
>>>
>>>>Wait... no debt? Isn't that un-American? Aren't we all supposed to be
>>>>enslaved to the banks?
>>>
>>>>See the video athttp://Muvy.org
>>>
>>>I saw it featured on a major media channel. While this is along the idea
>>>of something I would like to put on my land in TX, I do think 84sq ft is
>>>a bit on the small side for 1 person. I have messed around with floor
>>>plans for small cabins and came up with a 500sq ft floor that seemed
>>>livable. Actually I started with about 1000sq ft and worked my way down
>>>to about 500. Very simple rectangular design, 1 bed, 1 bath, kitchen,
>>>dining / living area. Tried to keep the design /green/ I.E. solar power,
>>>supplemental water via rain water harvesting, composting toilet, etc.
>>>etc. etc. I figured I could do the whole thing for about $10k using
>>>recycled stuff.
>>
>>
>> An Alternative:
>>
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/2corcd
>>
>
>
>its kinda sad that people are reduced to that in "wealthy" lands
I was just talking with the people in the neighboring site in our
campground here in North Pole, Alaska. They mentioned they ran into a
60ish woman at a car dealership this afternoon who was just returning
from the Arctic Ocean (she had dipped her feet into the Arctic Ocean).
She lives in her car and sleeps when she wants along side the road. He
said she was at the dealership (which sold her the car) asking for a
cup of coffee and to use the restroom. She was retired military, bar
tender and prison guard and was searching for "adventure"!
To each her own.
Dean
JerryD(upstateNY)
lands<<<
You have the wrong attitude.
She probably WANTS to live that way.
I guess you would think it would be better if the government took (stole)
some money from a "rich' guy and then rented (forced) an appartment for/on
this woman ?
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
Myal
Living in a car is not bad ,
living in a toilet cubicle tho ... it would get stenchy at times ... I
wouldnt want that nor wish it on anyone but a politician
Myal
> Myal wrote:.... its kinda sad that people are reduced to that in "wealthy"
> lands<<<
>
>
> You have the wrong attitude.
> She probably WANTS to live that way.
>
That is a convienient line of thought
> I guess you would think it would be better if the government took (stole)
> some money from a "rich' guy and then rented (forced) an appartment for/on
> this woman ?
>
Why do you guys allways fuss about money and govt when it comes to
matters of life and wellfare ?
is it the end of your little world , work and nanny state ?
JerryD(upstateNY)
and nanny state ?
This country is too much of a nanny state right now.
I certainly don't want it to become any more of a nanny state.
As soon as the country does everything for you, the country is near
collapse.
Europe is closer to a full nanny state (socialism) and look at their 20%
unemployment and $6.00 per gallon gas prices.
Socialism has failed every time it's tried.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
Rod Speed
> Myal wrote
>> Why do you guys allways fuss about money and govt when it comes to matters of life and wellfare ?
>> is it the end of your little world , work and nanny state ?
> This country is too much of a nanny state right now.
> I certainly don't want it to become any more of a nanny state.
> As soon as the country does everything for you, the country is near collapse.
Bet you cant list even a single country that has ever collapsed that way.
> Europe is closer to a full nanny state (socialism) and look at their 20% unemployment
There's fuck all european countrys with a 20% unemployment rate.
> and $6.00 per gallon gas prices.
> Socialism has failed every time it's tried.
Pig ignorant lie.
Myal
see , measured by money again ....
its something that ya just cannot get past hey ?
price of housing , price of health care , price of caring for old folk
no longer wanted by society cos they are no longer able to turn a
profitable $$ and pay their taxes ..
actual human element just does not enter the equation , even the roads
remain as death traps till the financial cost of the people being killed
outwieghs the cost of repair or remaking the road safer . That folk die
matters none , that folk live in shithouses matters none , as long as
its cool to justify it with "they probably WANT to live there"
and pointout that it would take $$ and effort to do anything about it ,
thus making it OK to do nothing ...
Its cool , I understand , this is the land of the free , and this is the
american way .
Jim Redelfs
Myal <Dum...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I guess you would think it would be better if the government took
>> (stole) some money from a "rich' guy and then rented (forced) an
>> appartment for/on this woman ?
> Why do you guys allways fuss about money and govt when it comes to
> matters of life and wellfare ?
Because it is *MY* money the governmentuses, and ever-increasing amounts of it.
Given your "life and wellfare(sic)" criteria, I should NEVER fuss about money
in ANY amount, which I have EARNED, that is arbitrarily redistributed to
others. Don't hold your breath.
> is it the end of your little world , work and nanny state ?
Give 'em time. They're working toward that end.
--
<sigh>
JR
JerryD(upstateNY)
I see you don't like anything about this country, not even the way we keep
the roads.
You are looking for perfection and that will never happen.
It must be hell walking around in your shoes every day.
SMILE.....we live in the best country in the world.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
Myal
> In article <jofni.8705$4A1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> Myal <Dum...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>I guess you would think it would be better if the government took
>>>(stole) some money from a "rich' guy and then rented (forced) an
>>>appartment for/on this woman ?
>
>
>>Why do you guys allways fuss about money and govt when it comes to
>>matters of life and wellfare ?
>
>
> Because it is *MY* money the governmentuses, and ever-increasing amounts of it.
>
Its your patriotic DUTY to hand that money over to be spent by
politicians on themselves , their careers , to buy votes and run
propoganda campaigns , invade other countries .... and use a tiny % on
welfare of folk who are down and out
> Given your "life and wellfare(sic)" criteria, I should NEVER fuss about money
> in ANY amount, which I have EARNED, that is arbitrarily redistributed to
> others. Don't hold your breath.
>
its your DUTy to earn it and hand it over to the politicians , what the
politicians do withit is their business , do you know if your $ went to
kill Iraqies or feed illegals or pay for a Bush night out shaking hands
and pressing flesh ?
its not your business to know , your leaders worry about it for you .
>
>>is it the end of your little world , work and nanny state ?
>
>
> Give 'em time. They're working toward that end.
This I agree with
Myal
Tell yourself that often enough and you will believe it
I dont have a problem with your country as such , the leaders yeah , for
sure they be scum , the racist bastards and xenophobic gibbering idiots
, yeah , I got a problem with them , but the actual country you live in
, nah , I hear its pretty good mostly
its just the way the people treat each other ....
miles
>> Myal wrote
>> As soon as the country does everything for you, the country is near collapse.
>
> Bet you cant list even a single country that has ever collapsed that way.
Russia with many more struggling with the high cost of socialism.
>> Socialism has failed every time it's tried.
> Pig ignorant lie.
Socialism is a failure. Most European socialist countries have absurdly
high taxes that is crippling. Along with absurd income taxes they also
pay incredible sales taxes (15%) and $7+ gas most of which is tax. In
the UK they are having to reduce funding of free collage in order to pay
for a cash strapped healthcare system.
miles
> actual human element just does not enter the equation , even the roads
> remain as death traps till the financial cost of the people being killed
> outwieghs the cost of repair or remaking the road safer . That folk die
> matters none , that folk live in shithouses matters none , as long as
> its cool to justify it with "they probably WANT to live there"
The alternative is what communism tries to solve. Reduce everyone down
to the least common denominator. A society that just exists with only
the basic essentials to survive. But hey, nobody has more than anyone
else. No thanks.
Paul Thomas, CPA
"Myal" <Dum...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Its your patriotic DUTY to hand that money over
> to be spent by politicians on themselves , their
> careers , to buy votes and run propoganda
> campaigns , invade other countries .... and use a
> tiny % on welfare of folk who are down and out
I don't see paying taxes as a "patriotic duty", but it's an obligation that
has to be met.
Also, the US budget spends about $700 BILLION toward Health and Human
Services. Hardly "tiny" in total dollars or percentage of the total budget.
There's over $600 BILLION spent on Social Security benefits. Roughly $1.3
Billion out of a total of close to $2.8 Billion in expenditures. Not quite
half, but not "tiny" by a long shot.
Should they spend less elsewhere? Maybe so. But that's not the point you
were trying to make.
--
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
----------------
clams casino
>
> Socialism is a failure. Most European socialist countries have
> absurdly high taxes that is crippling. Along with absurd income taxes
> they also pay incredible sales taxes (15%) and $7+ gas most of which
> is tax. In the UK they are having to reduce funding of free collage
> in order to pay for a cash strapped healthcare system.
If the European countries are crippling under their tax burdens, any
suggestions why why the Euro has gained 40+% in value vs. the US dollar
over the past 6 years?
Gunner
My 6' tall girl friend and myself at 6'3", managed to find a VW more
than adequate to the task as well.
Ah youth..when one was limber and adventurous....sigh...
Gunner
>
>
>
This Message is guaranteed environmentally friendly
Manufactured with 10% post consumer ASCII
Meets all EPA regulations for clean air
Using only naturally occuring fibers
Use the Message with confidance.
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krw
PeterG...@drunkin-clam.com says...
holdings.
--
Keith
Paul Thomas, CPA
"clams casino" <PeterG...@drunkin-clam.com> wrote
> If the European countries are crippling under their tax
> burdens, any suggestions why why the Euro has gained
> 40+% in value vs. the US dollar over the past 6 years?
Maybe because the Euro is backed in part by US greenbacks.
--
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For
those who do not, none will suffice." - Joseph Dunniger
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>>> Myal wrote
>>> As soon as the country does everything for you, the country is near collapse.
>> Bet you cant list even a single country that has ever collapsed that way.
> Russia
Doesnt qualify. It went for half a century attempting to do that before it collapsed
and it collapsed for other reasons, essentially because the political system doesnt
work over the long haul and they couldnt keep up with the US on military spending.
China certainly didnt collapse because they attempted that route. They eventually
came to their senses and realised that capitalism just works a lot better.
> with many more struggling with the high cost of socialism.
Socialism aint communism. And I bet you cant actually list any countrys
'struggling with the high cost of socialism'. Plenty of those have even better
real living standards than the US has and the US has plenty of socialism too,
most obviously with public schools, medicare, medicade, social security etc etc etc.
In fact ALL modern first world countrys are a mix of socialism and capitalism.
And so are plenty of other places like china too.
>>> Socialism has failed every time it's tried.
>> Pig ignorant lie.
> Socialism is a failure.
Pig ignorant lie.
> Most European socialist countries have absurdly high taxes that is crippling.
Pig ignorant lie, only a few of them do.
> Along with absurd income taxes they also pay incredible sales taxes (15%) and $7+ gas most of
> which is tax.
What matters is the total tax take and even HongKong had some socialism and very low taxes.
> In the UK they are having to reduce funding of free collage in order to pay for a cash strapped
> healthcare system.
Pig ignorant lie.
Pity about the extensive socialism in the US too.
Rod Speed
> PeterG...@drunkin-clam.com says...
>> miles wrote:
Nope, its primarily due to the terminal stupidity of the immense
amount of money the US is pissing against the wall in Iraq with
that being funded by deficits and not out of taxation.
The same thing happened during the Vietnam War.
Rod Speed
> miles wrote
Essentially because the US has been stupid enough to
piss an immense amount of money against the wall in Iraq.
The same effect was seen during the Vietnam War.
Rod Speed
>> If the European countries are crippling under their tax
>> burdens, any suggestions why why the Euro has gained
>> 40+% in value vs. the US dollar over the past 6 years?
> Maybe because the Euro is backed in part by US greenbacks.
No it isnt.
Rod Speed
> Myal wrote
>> actual human element just does not enter the equation , even the
>> roads remain as death traps till the financial cost of the people
>> being killed outwieghs the cost of repair or remaking the road safer
>> . That folk die matters none , that folk live in shithouses matters
>> none , as long as its cool to justify it with "they probably WANT to
>> live there"
> The alternative is what communism tries to solve. Reduce everyone down to the least common
> denominator.
Communism doesnt do that, most obviously with the apes at the top of the tree.
> A society that just exists with only the basic essentials to survive.
Mindlessly silly, no society works like that.
> But hey, nobody has more than anyone else.
Wrong again, the apes at the top clearly do.
> No thanks.
Dennis
Umm, the Euro hasn't gained all that much in absolute terms, the US
dollar has just lost a bunch. Compare both against say, gold.
Dennis (evil)
--
What the government gives, it must first take.
clams casino
So what you are saying is that the US is the one who has been crippled
(under Bush leadership).
Rod Speed
> Dennis wrote
>>>> Socialism is a failure. Most European socialist countries have
>>>> absurdly high taxes that is crippling. Along with absurd income
>>>> taxes they also pay incredible sales taxes (15%) and $7+ gas most
>>>> of which is tax. In the UK they are having to reduce funding of
>>>> free collage in order to pay for a cash strapped healthcare system.
>>> If the European countries are crippling under their tax burdens, any
>>> suggestions why why the Euro has gained 40+% in value vs. the US
>>> dollar over the past 6 years?
>> Umm, the Euro hasn't gained all that much in absolute terms, the US
>> dollar has just lost a bunch. Compare both against say, gold.
> So what you are saying is that the US is the one who has been crippled
Nope, the USD sagging hasnt crippled anyone.
> (under Bush leadership).
Corse that sag has never happened under anyone but the shrub, eh ?
Dennis
<PeterG...@drunkin-clam.com> wrote:
>Dennis wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:40:33 -0400, clams casino
>><PeterG...@drunkin-clam.com> wrote:
>>>If the European countries are crippling under their tax burdens, any
>>>suggestions why why the Euro has gained 40+% in value vs. the US dollar
>>>over the past 6 years?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Umm, the Euro hasn't gained all that much in absolute terms, the US
>>dollar has just lost a bunch. Compare both against say, gold.
>>
>
>So what you are saying is that the US is the one who has been crippled
>(under Bush leadership).
I'm saying that the US dollar has lost considerable value in real
terms. There are many factors contributing to this, yes, including
the actions and policies of the current administration.
Misifus
> miles <no...@nopers.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>> Myal wrote
>
>>>> As soon as the country does everything for you, the country is near collapse.
>
>>> Bet you cant list even a single country that has ever collapsed that way.
>
>> Russia
>
> Doesnt qualify. It went for half a century attempting to do that before it collapsed
> and it collapsed for other reasons, essentially because the political system doesnt
> work over the long haul and they couldnt keep up with the US on military spending.
>
> China certainly didnt collapse because they attempted that route. They eventually
> came to their senses and realised that capitalism just works a lot better.
>
>> with many more struggling with the high cost of socialism.
>
> Socialism aint communism. And I bet you cant actually list any countrys
> 'struggling with the high cost of socialism'.
See Norway: http://tinyurl.com/yopp5a
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
mailto:rafse...@suddenlink.net
blog: http://rafsrincon.blogspot.com/
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote:
>> miles <no...@nopers.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Myal wrote
>>
>>>>> As soon as the country does everything for you, the country is
>>>>> near collapse.
>>
>>>> Bet you cant list even a single country that has ever collapsed
>>>> that way.
>>
>>> Russia
>>
>> Doesnt qualify. It went for half a century attempting to do that
>> before it collapsed and it collapsed for other reasons, essentially
>> because the political system doesnt work over the long haul and they
>> couldnt keep up with the US on military spending. China certainly didnt collapse because they
>> attempted that route.
>> They eventually came to their senses and realised that capitalism
>> just works a lot better.
>>> with many more struggling with the high cost of socialism.
>>
>> Socialism aint communism. And I bet you cant actually list any
>> countrys 'struggling with the high cost of socialism'.
> See Norway: http://tinyurl.com/yopp5a
Doesnt qualify as struggling and there are plenty
with more socialism than norway that are doing fine.
And that is social WELFARE, not socialism, different matter entirely.
miles
> If the European countries are crippling under their tax burdens, any
> suggestions why why the Euro has gained 40+% in value vs. the US dollar
> over the past 6 years?
I never said all European countries are crippling under their tax
burdens. I said the UK with their socialism is and the UK has not
adopted the Euro as its standard.
Also the Euro is rather new. Your 40% dates back to the creation of the
Euro. Since then more countries have adopted it and thus its total
value in circulation has grown substantially.
Another reason for the low $ vs. Euro is the large trade deficit and low
interest rates in the US. A side effect of that is a weaker European
stock market.
miles
> Doesnt qualify. It went for half a century attempting to do that before it collapsed
> and it collapsed for other reasons
lol, you seem to pick and choose what qualifies or doesn't based on your
own personal views. Russia's attempt to provide everything for everyone
was a failure.
, essentially because the political system doesnt
> work over the long haul and they couldnt keep up with the US on military spending.
Yes it collapsed because it had no money from a broke system of trying
to be everything to everyone.
> 'struggling with the high cost of socialism'. Plenty of those have even better
> real living standards than the US has and the US has plenty of socialism too,
> most obviously with public schools, medicare, medicade, social security etc etc etc.
The UK is struggling in providing its social programs. College and
healthcare in the UK are running low in funding. Free college has
already seen cutbacks in order to shift funds to a starved health care
system. In the long run socialism can't work. Each year the demands on
social programs increases faster than the ability to generate those
funds through taxation.
>> Most European socialist countries have absurdly high taxes that is crippling.
>
> Pig ignorant lie, only a few of them do.
Only a few huh? Now thats a lie! Take a look at the tax rates of most
socialist European countries or even Canada.
>> In the UK they are having to reduce funding of free collage in order to pay for a cash strapped
>> healthcare system.
>
> Pig ignorant lie.
Truth bothers you huh? The UK's social system is cash strapped and
thats no lie.
miles
> Nope, its primarily due to the terminal stupidity of the immense
> amount of money the US is pissing against the wall in Iraq with
> that being funded by deficits and not out of taxation.
Oh geez. Another political zealot thats clueless! The dollar trade
value has far more to do with interest rates in the USA as well as the
trade deficit and the fact that so many countries tie their currency to
the $.
miles
> Mindlessly silly, no society works like that.
Exactly my point. Communism fails for that very reason. Have you been
to Russia? I have. People had the basic essentials of living and
little else. But people were fairly equal, few poor and few rich.
Little incentive to strive towards anything as there were no rewards for
ones hard work. Some has changed since I was there as more western
capitalism has entered.
Rod Speed
>>>>> Socialism is a failure. Most European socialist countries have
>>>>> absurdly high taxes that is crippling. Along with absurd income
>>>>> taxes they also pay incredible sales taxes (15%) and $7+ gas most
>>>>> of which is tax. In the UK they are having to reduce funding of
>>>>> free collage in order to pay for a cash strapped healthcare system.
>>>> If the European countries are crippling under their tax burdens, any
>>>> suggestions why why the Euro has gained 40+% in value vs. the US
>>>> dollar over the past 6 years?
>>> Likely because other countries are trying to balance their currency holdings.
>> Nope, its primarily due to the terminal stupidity of the immense
>> amount of money the US is pissing against the wall in Iraq with
>> that being funded by deficits and not out of taxation.
> Oh geez. Another political zealot
Thats just you projecting, child.
> thats clueless!
This from the political zealot that cant even manage to work
out the basics, that ALL modern first world econonmys are
a mixture of socialism and capitalism, including the US.
Cant get any more clueless than that.
> The dollar trade value has far more to do with interest rates in the USA
Have fun explaining the recent sag in the USD on that basis.
> as well as the trade deficit
Have fun explaining the recent sag in the USD on that basis.
> and the fact that so many countries tie their currency to the $.
Fuck all that matter do except china and that doesnt explain
why the USD has sagged with respect to the Euro anyway.
Rod Speed
> clams casino wrote:
>>> miles <no...@nopers.com> wrote
>>>> Socialism is a failure. Most European socialist countries have
>>>> absurdly high taxes that is crippling. Along with absurd income
>>>> taxes they also pay incredible sales taxes (15%) and $7+ gas most of which is tax. In the UK
>>>> they are having to reduce funding of free collage in order to pay for a cash strapped
>>>> healthcare system.
>> If the European countries are crippling under their tax burdens, any
>> suggestions why why the Euro has gained 40+% in value vs. the US
>> dollar over the past 6 years?
> I never said all European countries are crippling under their tax burdens.
You clearly did however claim that most of them are.
> I said the UK with their socialism is
You actually said a hell of a lot more than just that. And carefully
deleted that from the quoting. I have restored what you actually said.
> and the UK has not adopted the Euro as its standard.
You didnt actually say that, liar.
> Also the Euro is rather new. Your 40% dates back to the creation of the Euro. Since then more
> countries have adopted it and thus its total value in circulation has grown substantially.
Irrelevant to the USD/Euro relativity.
> Another reason for the low $ vs. Euro is the large trade deficit and low interest rates in the US.
Pity about the USD/Yen sag that cant have been due to that.
> A side effect of that is a weaker European stock market.
Not a fucking clue, as always.
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>> miles <no...@nopers.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> Myal wrote
>>>>> As soon as the country does everything for you, the country is near collapse.
>>>> Bet you cant list even a single country that has ever collapsed that way.
>>> Russia
>> Doesnt qualify. It went for half a century attempting to do that before it collapsed and it
>> collapsed for other reasons
> lol,
Village eejut imitations cut no mustard.
> you seem to pick and choose what qualifies or doesn't based on your own personal views.
We'll see...
> Russia's attempt to provide everything for everyone was a failure.
It worked reasonably well for a while, and they got a much better
result during the Great Depression than most of the first world did.
The fundamental thing that sank Russia was actually the cold
war, not doing everything for the inhabitants of that country.
>> essentially because the political system doesnt work over the long haul and they couldnt keep up
>> with the US on military spending.
> Yes it collapsed because it had no money from a broke system of trying to be everything to
> everyone.
Have fun explaining how come China did the same thing and didnt collapse.
>>> with many more struggling with the high cost of socialism.
>> Socialism aint communism. And I bet you cant actually list any countrys 'struggling with the high
>> cost of socialism'. Plenty of those have even better real living standards than the US has
Particularly for the dregs of their society.
>> and the US has plenty of socialism too, most obviously with public schools, medicare, medicade,
>> social security etc etc etc.
> The UK is struggling in providing its social programs.
Pig ignorant lie. They have chosen to not have the very high
taxation levels that are seen in the worst of europe like Norway.
> College and healthcare in the UK are running low in funding.
Pig ignorant lie.
> Free college has already seen cutbacks in order to shift funds to a starved health care system.
Pig ignorant lie.
And their schools work a hell of a lot better than the socialist schools in the US anyway.
> In the long run socialism can't work.
Easy to claim.
> Each year the demands on social programs increases faster than the ability to generate those funds
> through taxation.
Fantasy with the basics like school education, where every single modern first
world country isnt even self replacing on population when you take out immigration.
The socialism in the Jap economy works fine.
>>> Most European socialist countries have absurdly high taxes that is crippling.
>> Pig ignorant lie, only a few of them do.
> Only a few huh? Now thats a lie!
Nope.
> Take a look at the tax rates of most socialist European countries or even Canada.
Been there, done that. It isnt crippling in england, or canada.
It isnt even that much higher in canada when you
allow for the different funding of health care costs.
>>> In the UK they are having to reduce funding of free collage in order to pay for a cash strapped
>>> healthcare system.
>> Pig ignorant lie.
> Truth bothers you huh?
You wouldnt know what the truth was if it bit you on your lard arse.
> The UK's social system is cash strapped and thats no lie.
Its a pig ignorant lie and the only reason it doesnt have as much money
as some would like is because they have chosen to not have the very high
tax levels that some other european countrys like Norway have chosen to have.
Rod Speed
>>>> actual human element just does not enter the equation , even the
>>>> roads remain as death traps till the financial cost of the people
>>>> being killed outwieghs the cost of repair or remaking the road safer. That folk die matters
>>>> none , that folk live in shithouses matters none, as long as its cool to justify it with "they
>>>> probably WANT to live there"
>>> The alternative is what communism tries to solve. Reduce everyone down to the least common
>>> denominator.
>> Communism doesnt do that, most obviously with the apes at the top of the tree.
>>> A society that just exists with only the basic essentials to survive.
>> Mindlessly silly, no society works like that.
> Exactly my point.
Nope.
> Communism fails for that very reason.
Have fun explaining why that didnt happen in China.
> Have you been to Russia? I have.
But you're so stupid that it didnt help.
> People had the basic essentials of living and little else.
Pig ignorant lie.
> But people were fairly equal, few poor and few rich.
Nothing like your original pig ignorant lie.
> Little incentive to strive towards anything as there were no rewards for ones hard work.
There was for the apprachiks.
> Some has changed since I was there as more western capitalism has entered.
Pity they fucked that up completely. China didnt.
miles
> Its a pig ignorant lie and the only reason it doesnt have as much money
> as some would like is because they have chosen to not have the very high
> tax levels that some other european countrys like Norway have chosen to have.
The UK has 50%+ tax rates along with 15% VAT sales tax and $7+ gallon
gas most of which is tax. Yes, I realize many socialist European
countries have even more absurdly high rates but to say the tax rates in
the UK isn't high is...well...absurd!
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>>>>> In the UK they are having to reduce funding of free collage in order to pay for a cash
>>>>> strapped healthcare system.
>>>> Pig ignorant lie.
>>> Truth bothers you huh?
>> You wouldnt know what the truth was if it bit you on your lard arse.
>>> The UK's social system is cash strapped and thats no lie.
>> Its a pig ignorant lie and the only reason it doesnt have as much money as some would like is
>> because they have chosen to not have the very high tax levels that some other european countrys
>> like Norway have chosen to have.
> The UK has 50%+ tax rates
Most dont pay anything like that tax rate.
> along with 15% VAT sales tax and $7+ gallon gas most of which is tax.
And you have to allow for the fact that thats paying for their
health care, something an american has to pay for separately.
And with the US you have to allow for the fact that its the property
taxes that mostly are what funds the socialist school system too.
> Yes, I realize many socialist European countries have even more absurdly high rates but to say the
> tax rates in the UK isn't high is...well...absurd!
Its the total tax take that matters, and england isnt that much higher than the US.
Myal
> "Myal" <Dum...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>Its your patriotic DUTY to hand that money over
>>to be spent by politicians on themselves , their
>>careers , to buy votes and run propoganda
>>campaigns , invade other countries .... and use a
>>tiny % on welfare of folk who are down and out
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't see paying taxes as a "patriotic duty", but it's an obligation that
> has to be met.
>
> Also, the US budget spends about $700 BILLION toward Health and Human
> Services. Hardly "tiny" in total dollars or percentage of the total budget.
> There's over $600 BILLION spent on Social Security benefits. Roughly $1.3
> Billion out of a total of close to $2.8 Billion in expenditures. Not quite
> half, but not "tiny" by a long shot.
>
> Should they spend less elsewhere? Maybe so. But that's not the point you
> were trying to make.
>
>
>
>
>
compared to military spending ...
but you still totaly miss the point and are insisting on measuing human
life in terms of $$ only
JerryD(upstateNY)
over the long haul and they (Russia) couldnt keep up with the US on military
spending.
The Democrats will never admit that fact.
If they did, it would mean they would have to admit to the fact that Reagan
caused Russia to collapse.
I am not sure what the Democrats think cause the collapse of the USSR.
Maybe global warming ?
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
JerryD(upstateNY)
And you have totally missed the point that the world will never change.
Get use to it.
--
JerryD(upstateNY)
Rod Speed
> Rod Speed wrote
>....essentially because the political system doesn't work over the long haul and they (Russia)
>couldnt keep up with the US on military spending.
> The Democrats will never admit that fact.
Slick did.
> If they did, it would mean they would have to admit to the fact that Reagan caused Russia to
> collapse.
It was more than just that.
> I am not sure what the Democrats think cause the collapse of the USSR.
> Maybe global warming ?
Read Slick's memoirs.