Re: I'm celebrating because the bailout failed!
Dave
"OhioGuy" <no...@none.net> wrote in message news:gbrcvi$620$1...@aioe.org...
> I just read that politicians were getting more phone calls today than
> ever before regarding the bailout.
Good. And 100 to 1 against the measure, too.
>
> Yay - that was me! I made a difference! We basically let our voices be
> heard, and told them if they used our money to pay off the companies who
> caused this whole fiasco, then we would be showing them the door in
> about 5 weeks. Today we saw the Republic working the way it should, with
> representatives REPRESENTING the will of their constituents.
I see it differently. By a narrow margin, MOST of the representatives were
representing the will of the people. Now I'm wondering what the FUCK were
all the others thinking?
>
> I think the bailout as worded was a rush job that would have done very
> little to alleviate the current situation.
Actually, it would have done more harm than good. That's what happens when
you reward incompetence. You breed more incompetence.
> We simply need to take a
> month to look things over, get feedback from economists, and craft
> something that makes more sense. Something that might actually WORK
> would probably be a good idea, too.
Best thing that could happen for our country right now is for congress (both
houses) to take a year off and do nothing. Really. Let the banks that
SHOULD fail, fail. It will sort itself out just fine, without our
interference. -Dave
On a side note, I sincerely hope that you aren't celebrating too soon. The
measure was only narrowly defeated. I'm shocked that it WAS defeated. I
expected the traitors in DC to vote against the will of the people, as per
usual. I wouldn't be too shocked if the measure EVENTUALLY passes
nyway. -Dave
clams_casino
> I just read that politicians were getting more phone calls today
> than ever before regarding the bailout.
>
> Yay - that was me! I made a difference! We basically let our voices be
> heard, and told them if they used our money to pay off the companies
> who caused this whole fiasco, then we would be showing them the door
> in about 5 weeks. Today we saw the Republic working the way it should,
> with representatives REPRESENTING the will of their constituents.
>
> I think the bailout as worded was a rush job that would have done very
> little to alleviate the current situation. We simply need to take a
> month to look things over, get feedback from economists, and craft
> something that makes more sense. Something that might actually WORK
> would probably be a good idea, too.
Hope you get to keep your job. Hope you are >20 years from retirement.
Hope your home mortgage loan doesn't get called.
OhioGuy
Vic Smith
Scare tactics. Sounds like Paulson, the guy who pulled down a $45
million salary at Goldman Sachs the year he left to work for the guv.
Had to sell his Goldman Sachs stock first though. $500 million.
Now whining for help for his buddies. Fast. Must do right now.
The feds should take their time with this.
Think about it. This mess is caused by increasing debt.
The guv wants to pump in money to keep increasing debt.
They'll just make things worse.
--Vic
Rod Speed
Nope, it was caused by securitizing sub prime loans and giving those
CDOs AAA ratings they didnt come even close to deserving.
> The guv wants to pump in money to keep increasing debt.
> They'll just make things worse.
The debt will increase by a hell of a lot more than that if we end up with another great depression or worse.
Dave
> >
> >
> >Hope you get to keep your job. Hope you are >20 years from retirement.
> >Hope your home mortgage loan doesn't get called.
>
> Scare tactics.
No shit. It pisses me off that someone would use such tactics to try to
defend this corrupt thievery.
> Think about it. This mess is caused by increasing debt.
> The guv wants to pump in money to keep increasing debt.
> They'll just make things worse.
This is the best I've seen the situation summed up, in as few words as
possible. GREAT stuff. It should be tattooed on the forehead of every
fucking moron who actually voted FOR the bailout. -Dave
clams_casino
Haven't seen anything yet.
Didn't work for Hoover. Won't work this time either.
Jeff
> I just read that politicians were getting more phone calls today than
> ever before regarding the bailout.
>
> Yay - that was me! I made a difference! We basically let our voices be
> heard, and told them if they used our money to pay off the companies who
> caused this whole fiasco, then we would be showing them the door in
> about 5 weeks. Today we saw the Republic working the way it should, with
> representatives REPRESENTING the will of their constituents.
The people know crap.
>
> I think the bailout as worded was a rush job that would have done very
> little to alleviate the current situation. We simply need to take a
> month to look things over,
In the last week or so, the largest Thrift, the largest Chevy dealer,
the largest mortgage lender and the largest investment banks have
failed. Wachovia went down today.
Lets just say , for arguments sake, that all that doesn't amount to much.
Lets look instead at the typical business that borrows money while
they wait for receipts to come in. That money is needed to pay for
payrolls and other goods and services. Right now the mechanism to
borrow that short term money is broken.
I don't know what the "right" plan is. But I can tell you that if
nothing is done, in the next month, you'll see a wave of collapses that
hasn't been seen since '29. What the Fed is doing now is treating the
frozen credit market ad hoc.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10439813/2/fed-pumps-huge-wads-of-cash-into-system.html
In today's announcement, the Federal Reserve said that it would double
the size of its Term Auction Facility to $300 billion from $150 billion,
massively increasing its lifeline to commercial banks. The action should
help put downward pressure on the fed funds rate, which is one of the
reasons why the ability to pay interest on reserves is so important at
this time.
The Fed also announced today that it would double the size of its swap
facilities with foreign central banks to a whopping $620 billion from
$290 billion, an action designed to counter strains in the European
banking system, where demand for dollars is far outstripping supply.
The action will help lower LIBOR, which has been trading at 21-year
highs relative to the fed funds rate (three-month LIBOR settled at 3.88%
today).
And don't forget all those billions the Fed has already set aside for
AIG and Fannie and Freddie. That's some real money.
If you think we should sit on this for a month, then my advice to you
is this: Don't sell the cow.
Jeff
Dave
"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:5bKdnUHFr_zfDXzV...@earthlink.com...
> OhioGuy wrote:
> > I just read that politicians were getting more phone calls today than
> > ever before regarding the bailout.
> >
> > Yay - that was me! I made a difference! We basically let our voices be
> > heard, and told them if they used our money to pay off the companies who
> > caused this whole fiasco, then we would be showing them the door in
> > about 5 weeks. Today we saw the Republic working the way it should, with
> > representatives REPRESENTING the will of their constituents.
>
> The people know crap.
It's that arrogant attitude that is exactly why our current form of
government does not work. It's supposed to be of the people, by the people
and for the people. It's actually of a wealthy subset of the people, by a
wealthy subset of the people and for only a wealthy subset of the people.
It simply doesn't work for "the people".
The people know that another 700 BILLION dollars in unsecured debt borrowed
from other countries, to be paid back at the rate of $10K each taxpayer, if
it's ever repaid, is a really bad idea. But if you are a wealthy
congress-critter? 700 Billion looks like chump change, when you are
spending other peoples' money to the tune of tens of trillions of
dollars....
No, the problem is, the people DO understand the issue, well. But their
government who also understands the issue doesn't see the issue in the same
light that "the people" do. That's why I'm shocked that the bailout hasn't
passed. And very relieved. For the moment.
> In the last week or so, the largest Thrift, the largest Chevy dealer,
> the largest mortgage lender and the largest investment banks have
> failed. Wachovia went down today.
>
> Lets just say , for arguments sake, that all that doesn't amount to
much.
>
> Lets look instead at the typical business that borrows money while
> they wait for receipts to come in.
That would be a business that is over-extended, and not properly managed.
> That money is needed to pay for
> payrolls and other goods and services. Right now the mechanism to
> borrow that short term money is broken.
So? It only exposes a weakness in the management that would have led to the
failure of the corporation anyway. It's not causing the demise of an
employer. At worst, it's only hastening the demise. Better to take the
lumps now and start working toward a real solution. Sooner, rather than
later. -Dave
>
> I don't know what the "right" plan is. But I can tell you that if
> nothing is done, in the next month, you'll see a wave of collapses that
> hasn't been seen since '29.
You could be right. However, the 700Billion bailout proposal would only
HASTEN this economic collapse that you speak of, if it happens. By
over-extending our borrowing even further, and de-valuing the dollar to the
point where we are burning 100 dollar bills in the fireplace to stay warm
this winter.
> If you think we should sit on this for a month, then my advice to you
> is this: Don't sell the cow.
>
> Jeff
Again, the 700BN bailout proposal is like trying to fix a stalled engine by
pushing the car off a cliff. It might be dangerous to do nothing, but it's
much more dangerous to throw 700 Billion at people who do not know how to
manage it. -Dave
JonL
"teaser" price, to get us sucked in. The true cost may be in the 4-5
trillion range. Japan did this bailout thing for a major bank back in
98. 4-5 yrs later they had to bail the same bank again, at 6x the cost
of the first bailout. Without addressing structural problems within the
entire financial system, they discovered it's just money down a rathole.
(snipped from Forbes)
"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman
told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."
They made it up to be sufficiently enormous to frighten everyone into
rapid action.
---------------------------------------
interesting comments,imo:
Dallas Federal Reserve Bank President Richard Fisher said the proposed
$700 billion rescue of financial institutions backed by Fed Chairman Ben
S. Bernanke would plunge the U.S. government deeper into a fiscal abyss.
------------------------------------------
"It's more hype than real risk," said James K. Galbraith, a University
of Texas economist and son of the late economic historian John Kenneth
Galbraith. "A nasty recession is possible, but the bailout will not cure
that. So it's mainly relevant to the financial industry."
"My sense is it will delay a disaster, given that you only have three
months left in this administration. But it will not cure the problem in
the (financial) industry or prevent the shakeout and downsizing of the
industry," Galbraith said.
Jeff
> "Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
> news:5bKdnUHFr_zfDXzV...@earthlink.com...
>> OhioGuy wrote:
>>> I just read that politicians were getting more phone calls today than
>>> ever before regarding the bailout.
>>>
>>> Yay - that was me! I made a difference! We basically let our voices be
>>> heard, and told them if they used our money to pay off the companies who
>>> caused this whole fiasco, then we would be showing them the door in
>>> about 5 weeks. Today we saw the Republic working the way it should, with
>>> representatives REPRESENTING the will of their constituents.
>> The people know crap.
>
> It's that arrogant attitude that is exactly why our current form of
> government does not work. It's supposed to be of the people, by the people
> and for the people. It's actually of a wealthy subset of the people, by a
> wealthy subset of the people and for only a wealthy subset of the people.
> It simply doesn't work for "the people".
I'm continually surprised at how little most people know. JayWalking
is widespread. IMHO, if the people were thinking, George W Bush would
not have made a second term.
>
> The people know that another 700 BILLION dollars in unsecured debt borrowed
> from other countries, to be paid back at the rate of $10K each taxpayer, if
> it's ever repaid, is a really bad idea.
The debt won't be unsecured, there will be something to back it up.
But that is all besides the point, as the whole idea in aactuality is to
establish some value to all these "assets". Nobody knows the value now
because of completely lax oversight. Because of this, the asset has no
value. The basic idea is for some value to be established so these
securities can be traded again. The only way you can establish a value
for something is to buy it. This will be complex work as some of this
debt is quite complex.
But if you are a wealthy
> congress-critter? 700 Billion looks like chump change, when you are
> spending other peoples' money to the tune of tens of trillions of
> dollars....
700 billion is chump change relative to the whole fiasco. It works out
to one additional year of George W Bush, since the debt is going up
about that much a year. It's also almost how much the Fed is pushing out
each day to ease liquidity.
>
> No, the problem is, the people DO understand the issue, well. But their
> government who also understands the issue doesn't see the issue in the same
> light that "the people" do. That's why I'm shocked that the bailout hasn't
> passed. And very relieved. For the moment.
It's not really a bailout, it's an attempt to establish some movement
to a frozen monetary system. The Ad Hoc alternative of buying these
failed firms will prove to be much more expensive.
>
>
>> In the last week or so, the largest Thrift, the largest Chevy dealer,
>> the largest mortgage lender and the largest investment banks have
>> failed. Wachovia went down today.
>>
>> Lets just say , for arguments sake, that all that doesn't amount to
> much.
>> Lets look instead at the typical business that borrows money while
>> they wait for receipts to come in.
>
> That would be a business that is over-extended, and not properly managed.
>
>
No. It's almost every manufacturing business and most others. If you
make 10 cents on the dollar, you have to be able to have the whole
dollar until you get your 10 cents. If it takes you 1 month to
recuperate your expense, you would have to have in cash nearly your
years earnings to finance your operation.
Only very small businesses, or ones with great cash flow, can operate
with no short term debt.
>
>> That money is needed to pay for
>> payrolls and other goods and services. Right now the mechanism to
>> borrow that short term money is broken.
>
> So? It only exposes a weakness in the management that would have led to the
> failure of the corporation anyway.
There's a huge difference between the leveraging that these
investment banks did and the "Commercial Paper" that runs a large part
of the economy.
Without access to commercial paper, these businesses will grind to a
halt.
It's not causing the demise of an
> employer. At worst, it's only hastening the demise. Better to take the
> lumps now and start working toward a real solution. Sooner, rather than
> later. -Dave
>
>
>> I don't know what the "right" plan is. But I can tell you that if
>> nothing is done, in the next month, you'll see a wave of collapses that
>> hasn't been seen since '29.
>
> You could be right. However, the 700Billion bailout proposal would only
> HASTEN this economic collapse that you speak of, if it happens. By
> over-extending our borrowing even further, and de-valuing the dollar to the
> point where we are burning 100 dollar bills in the fireplace to stay warm
> this winter.
At this point .7T is a small part of the 10T debt that W has left us
with. It would, of course, be better not to have had a fiscal policy
that cared nothing about deficits. It would have been better not to have
had an incompetent president that was still cheer leading this disaster
months ago.
The problem is that George W Bush has sold too many pigs in a poke
because it was an emergency. Regretfully, I think this is one pig we are
better off buying. The next president will have to right the ship.
Jeff
Dave
> >
> > It's that arrogant attitude that is exactly why our current form of
> > government does not work. It's supposed to be of the people, by the
people
> > and for the people. It's actually of a wealthy subset of the people, by
a
> > wealthy subset of the people and for only a wealthy subset of the
people.
> > It simply doesn't work for "the people".
>
> I'm continually surprised at how little most people know. JayWalking
> is widespread. IMHO, if the people were thinking, George W Bush would
> not have made a second term.
Actually, the outcome of any particular election is not an indication of
what the people are thinking, or even if they are thinking. Most people
figured out long ago that the outcome of an election does not matter. It
always boils down to a choice of two or more criminals. Why bother to even
vote? Like the next presidential election. Our choices are...
Damn, we're FUCKED no matter who wins
> The debt won't be unsecured, there will be something to back it up.
Yes, assets of bankrupt, mis-managed financial institutions, likely worth
less than zero. I feel sooooooooooo much better about the plan now. -Dave
clams_casino
On a local level, even with price increases over the past year, our
state-wide taxes on restaurant meals were recently reported to be down
sharply vs. 2007 - a direct indication of restaurant business. Many
towns are reporting 40-50% declines. Last week, I stopped in a local
pizzeria for a grinder. It was lunch hour. They would normally have
two in the kitchen and one or two waitresses. The owner was alone,
busing tables, waiting, cooking, cashier, etc. I was his only customer
between 12 - 12:30.
Today I noticed a local Ford car lot with a noticeable void in
inventory. Ford typically requires its dealers to take on inventory.
This lot has historically been jammed with new cars. The lot appears to
be about 1/3 empty.
Today, I took a walk along our downtown, I passed two barber shops,
two nail salons and a hair dresser, all with clear street side windows.
All had a single employee (likely the owner) with NO customers. I
passed about a dozen restaurants & saw maybe 2-8 diners between 12 -
1. Normally, it's near impossible to find parking on the main st.
This afternoon, a good 1/4 and possible 1/3 of the street parking was
available. The shops were noticeable empty. Just two years ago,, there
was much concern that there was not ample parking to support the down
town shops. It looked much like a typical small southern town about a
year after a Walmart came to town.
Jeff
>>>> The people know crap.
>>> It's that arrogant attitude that is exactly why our current form of
>>> government does not work. It's supposed to be of the people, by the
> people
>>> and for the people. It's actually of a wealthy subset of the people, by
> a
>>> wealthy subset of the people and for only a wealthy subset of the
> people.
>>> It simply doesn't work for "the people".
>> I'm continually surprised at how little most people know. JayWalking
>> is widespread. IMHO, if the people were thinking, George W Bush would
>> not have made a second term.
>
> Actually, the outcome of any particular election is not an indication of
> what the people are thinking, or even if they are thinking. Most people
> figured out long ago that the outcome of an election does not matter. It
> always boils down to a choice of two or more criminals. Why bother to even
> vote? Like the next presidential election. Our choices are...
> Damn, we're FUCKED no matter who wins
>
>
Even Angela Merkel repeatedly warned him a year ago about this mess
which was plainly visible even from Germany. She had a list of
proposals. But old W told her that everything was fine that we needed no
help.
It's been the conscious effort to reduce oversight and let the sharks
feed that has marked this administration. It's the perfect storm of
ignoring the evidence and running on faith.
>
>
>> The debt won't be unsecured, there will be something to back it up.
>
> Yes, assets of bankrupt, mis-managed financial institutions, likely worth
> less than zero. I feel sooooooooooo much better about the plan now. -Dave
You are buying them now irregardless. Look at the guarantees that
have been given out for all these recent failures. It's quite open ended.
Jeff
>
>
>
>
Dennis
Gotta agree with you. I think what sealed it for me was seeing Steve
Forbes on TV last night whining about how we really, really need the
bailout or unpseakably awful things will happen.
You have to follow the money -- look at who is pushing the bailout the
hardest.
Now, do you trust them?
Dennis (evil)
--
What the government gives, it must first take.
SMS
Pelosi was on KGO radio today being grilled by a talk show host about
the bailout, specifically because there are no regulations in the
bailout that would stop this whole thing from happening again. She said
that if they had included such regulations, they would have gotten zero
Republican votes, because the Republicans are still not convinced that
the financial industries need to be regulated, and Bush would veto any
bill that provided new regulations against sub-prime loans or that
provided bankruptcy relief for homeowners. She said that such
regulations and relief would have to wait until after the next president
is sworn in. So basically we need to give the $800 billion to bail out
these corporations, then hope that Obama is elected and that we can put
some new regulations into place that will stop all this from happening
again. Not a very good plan. McCain could still pull this election out
with all sorts of dirty tricks that the Republicans are famous for.
If Bush and Paulson really want any kind of a bailout then they've got
to be prepared to make a lot more concessions.