Why did Google let their newsgroup rot?
remo...@gmail.com
happened to this feature of the Internet. Google has let the
NewsGroups founder. They're full of gross spam now, hardly any
conversation at all.
Someone should hold a funeral for a resource which has been,
apparently, ruined forever. There's no recovery from what I see.
Misc.frugal will be missed in the hard times coming up in the USA. I'm
truly sorry to see it in tatters.
George
The concept of newsgroups was one of the earliest ideas implemented on
the Internet. It uses something called NNTP (Network News Transfer
Protocol). Folks set up NNTP servers that would update each other and
then users could connect to one of those servers and read and reply to
posts. This is all a long, long time before google (the spammers best
friend) existed.
Then google (the spammers best friend) came along and bought the archive
of old posts from a company called Deja News. Initially it was just a
searchable only archive. Then google (the spammers best friend) came
along and built an interface to allow users to post to the NNTP system.
That allowed people who had no clue what NNTP was about jump right in
and more importantly google (the spammers best friend) enabled spammers
who don't even know what are posting too.
Most of these discussion groups have charters that prohibit commercial
posts. google (the spammers best friend) could care less.
Seerialmom
Originally I used the usenet system (Outlook Express or Netscape
Navigator being used to access/post); but later when I didn't want to
configure these readers on company property, I noticed DejaNews. And
at the time you "could" post to them, they weren't read-only. It was
shortly thereafter that Google bought DejaNews. It also appears that
some groups are affected more than others when it comes to Spam. This
one seems to be the worst compared to others I read/post to. Why
Google doesn't implement a filtering option or "spam" block, no idea.
George Grapman
Actually you could post from dejanews but it was more like
craigslist. You posted with your email address, they sent you a copy
and after getting the email you posted it.
A poster in the sports gambling group claimed an unbelievable winning
record. Those who dared to question him were harassed. One of his
tactics was to post dozens of messages via dejanews with the address of
his enemies. Obviously they never got posted but it created a minor
nuisance.
Siskuwihane
Would it help if all posters access this and other groups through
Google and use the "report this message" feature on the spam posts
and flood Googles inboxes daily until they take action?
Anthony Matonak
> Would it help if all posters access this and other groups through
> Google and use the "report this message" feature on the spam posts
> and flood Googles inboxes daily until they take action?
What makes you think that Google reads their inbox or that
they will ever take action? I think a class action lawsuit
is much more likely to get them to do something.
Anthony
George Grapman
If they cared they would deal with complaint regardless of how the
access groups.
For several moths last year the google groups search junction was
either completely down or missing many posts. Every so often a google
person would drop into the help forums to either say they could not find
a problem or that it had been resolved.
Rod Speed
> I haven't been in the newsgroups a long while. I can't believe what's happened
> to this feature of the Internet. Google has let the NewsGroups founder.
Google has never been very relevant to newsgroups, except at the edges.
And it has attracted a number of people to newsgroups
who would otherwise never have even heard of them too.
> They're full of gross spam now, hardly any conversation at all.
Thats a gross exaggeration of newsgroups.
> Someone should hold a funeral for a resource which has been,
> apparently, ruined forever. There's no recovery from what I see.
Newsgroups were always going to fade into obscurity,
and that would have happened even without the spam.
> Misc.frugal will be missed in the hard times coming up in the USA.
Nope, there wont be any hard times coming up in the USA.
> I'm truly sorry to see it in tatters.
Its completely trivial to eliminate almost all the spam by just filtering out all posts from google.
Corse you will also lose plenty who would never have become aware of newsgroups without google too.
Rod Speed
Nope, they just auto flush crap like that where it belongs.
Siskuwihane
<anthony...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote:
> Siskuwihane wrote:
> > Would it help if all posters access this and other groups through
> > Google and use the "report this message" feature on the spam posts
> > and flood Googles inboxes daily until they take action?
>
> What makes you think that Google reads their inbox or that
> they will ever take action?
I don't think that, that's why I ended with a question mark instead of
begining with "may I suggest".
>I think a class action lawsuit
> is much more likely to get them to do something.
Let us know how you make out.
Seerialmom
Class action lawsuit for something they provide for "free"? not likely
to go far.
Seerialmom
It wasn't the spam that was causing Usenet to become less relevant.
It's all those fancy sites where anyone who wants to can create a
"message board". Still not clear why some newsgroups are chock full
of spam while others have hardly any at all.
George Grapman
absolve them of any liability .
In addition you have to establish that you were harmed in some way.
Obviously missing posts did not cause anyone financial damage and if it
caused emotional distress they need the type of help that courts do not
offer.
Rod Speed
> On Feb 1, 1:59 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> remod2...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> I haven't been in the newsgroups a long while. I can't believe
>>> what's happened to this feature of the Internet. Google has let the
>>> NewsGroups founder.
>>
>> Google has never been very relevant to newsgroups, except at the
>> edges.
>>
>> And it has attracted a number of people to newsgroups
>> who would otherwise never have even heard of them too.
>>
>>> They're full of gross spam now, hardly any conversation at all.
>>
>> Thats a gross exaggeration of newsgroups.
>>
>>> Someone should hold a funeral for a resource which has been,
>>> apparently, ruined forever. There's no recovery from what I see.
>>
>> Newsgroups were always going to fade into obscurity,
>> and that would have happened even without the spam.
>>
>>> Misc.frugal will be missed in the hard times coming up in the USA.
>>
>> Nope, there wont be any hard times coming up in the USA.
>>
>>> I'm truly sorry to see it in tatters.
>>
>> Its completely trivial to eliminate almost all the spam by just
>> filtering out all posts from google.
>>
>> Corse you will also lose plenty who would never have become aware of
>> newsgroups without google too.
> It wasn't the spam that was causing Usenet to become less relevant.
Correct.
> It's all those fancy sites where anyone who wants to can create a "message board".
Nope, the main problem usenet had was that hardly anyone knew anything about it.
If anything google did help with that a little.
> Still not clear why some newsgroups are chock
> full of spam while others have hardly any at all.
Presumably the spammers decide that the prospects in some are much better than in others.
They have never been anything like rocket scientist material.
Most of them cant even manage to learn enough english to make their spam even readable.
Lou
<remo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b4e0b98f-66b6-4767...@f47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
Since when did newsgroups "belong" to Google? They never have and they
don't now. The idea that Google or anyone else should or even could be a
general gatekeeper is ludicrous.
Jeff
> I haven't been in the newsgroups a long while.
Well that certainly shows!
I can't believe what's
> happened to this feature of the Internet. Google has let the
> NewsGroups founder. They're full of gross spam now, hardly any
> conversation at all.
>
> Someone should hold a funeral for a resource which has been,
> apparently, ruined forever. There's no recovery from what I see.
>
> Misc.frugal will be missed in the hard times coming up in the USA. I'm
> truly sorry to see it in tatters.
Well, you should know by now that Google is just a poor shell for
accessing usenet.
It would be of benefit to you if you accessed usenet using either your
mail client or a news reader with a direct connection to a usenet
server. Spam filtering is done by the news server, and a well run server
will have much less SPAM than one that doesn't care. And you wouldn't
make such stupid remarks about usenet being part of Google.
Jeff
>
Logan Shaw
I doubt if it would. Personally, my own analysis of Google and
newsgroups is the following:
1. They bought DejaNews and their Usenet archive because they
wanted to be the central place for searching the Internet,
and they regarded Usenet as not as important as the web,
but still a key part of the Internet. Therefore, they need
to provide search for it to fill out the spectrum of things
they offer.
2. They also collected Usenet archives from various private
sources and put together the most complete Usenet archive
that existed at the time, merely because they had the resources
to do it. I think in some sense they did it because they felt
that as a leading company, they have some obligation to provide
such a service. In other words, they were trying to give back
to the community (the Internet community).
3. Yet despite both of the above, they don't quite know what to
do with Usenet. This is the same problem that DejaNews
encountered. Most of the interest with Usenet is the current
threads going on, which you can get straight from your ISP,
and even if you can't you, have to know you want Usenet to
even bother (or prefer it over web forums). So anyone who
wants to grow the number of users that hit their site, if
their site is a Usenet gateway, has a LOT of work cut for
for them.
4. Because of #3, while they haven't dropped it, they haven't
put a lot of effort into it either. Google has one of the
most amazing brain trusts going these days, and if they
wanted to solve these problems, they probably could find
a way. I don't use my gmail account much, but Google's
gmail spam filtering is supposed to be top notch. Surely
they, with all their Ph.D.s, could figure out something
similar to prevent their Usenet gateway from flooding
newsgroups with crud, if they wanted to. But they're just
stuck at sort of a point of stability where they aren't
going to drop Usenet but they aren't going to invest any
significant effort into it either.
So, what's it going to take to get them to take action? They
need to feel, for some reason, that it's a priority. That motivation
would probably have to come from one of two places: either they
have to suddenly think Usenet is more important to them strategically,
which as I said before is tough to do since generating interest in
Usenet was always a problem for DejaNews and is also a problem for
Google, or alternatively Google needs to feel that they are in some
sense morally obligated to do something about it. That second way
is actually a possibility, I believe, at a company like Google,
but you have to get the ear of the right person. And you're not
going to do that with an e-mail campaign, probably. (You probably
have to know somebody -- the right somebody.)
- Logan
Rod Speed
> Siskuwihane wrote
>> remod2...@gmail.com wrote
>>> I haven't been in the newsgroups a long while. I can't believe
>>> what's happened to this feature of the Internet. Google has let the NewsGroups founder. They're full of gross spam
>>> now, hardly any conversation at all.
>>> Someone should hold a funeral for a resource which has been,
>>> apparently, ruined forever. There's no recovery from what I see.
>>> Misc.frugal will be missed in the hard times coming up in the USA.
>>> I'm truly sorry to see it in tatters.
>> Would it help if all posters access this and other groups through
>> Google and use the "report this message" feature on the spam posts and flood Googles inboxes daily until they take
>> action?
> I doubt if it would.
Corse it wouldnt. They have clearly decided that they dont care about spam.
> Personally, my own analysis of Google and newsgroups is the following:
> 1. They bought DejaNews and their Usenet archive because they wanted to be the central place for searching the
> Internet,
> and they regarded Usenet as not as important as the web,
> but still a key part of the Internet. Therefore, they need to provide search for it to fill out the spectrum of
> things they offer.
Or they had so much money that they could do anything they wanted.
> 2. They also collected Usenet archives from various private sources and put together the most complete Usenet archive
> that existed at the time, merely because they had the resources to do it.
And the money in spades.
> I think in some sense they did it because they felt that as a leading company, they have some obligation to
> provide
> such a service. In other words, they were trying to give back to the community (the Internet community).
Or they just wanted to do everything that
might well matter and could afford to do that.
> 3. Yet despite both of the above, they don't quite know what to do with Usenet.
Or they did realise that their approach would expose usenet to
hordes who would otherwise never come across it, and they dont
care about the obviously spam downside that came with that.
> This is the same problem that DejaNews encountered.
Nope, nothing like it. DejaNews was always about
an archive and not really any more than that.
> Most of the interest with Usenet is the current threads going on, which you can get straight from your ISP,
Thats arguable. Plenty used DejaNews as a useful source of
information on technical matters and still do with groups.google.
> and even if you can't you, have to know you want Usenet to even bother (or prefer it over web forums).
No you dont. Standard google has been including usenet
for a long time now and that is useful for those who wouldnt
know what usenet was if it bit them on their lard arses.
> So anyone who wants to grow the number of users that hit their site, if their site is a Usenet gateway, has a LOT
> of work cut for for them.
Almost no one cares.
> 4. Because of #3, while they haven't dropped it, they haven't put a lot of effort into it either.
Wrong. They exposed usenet to a hell of a lot that would otherwise
never of come across it. Hell of a lot more then Deja ever managed.
> Google has one of the most amazing brain trusts going these days,
Yep.
> and if they wanted to solve these problems, they probably could find a way.
Yes, but they clearly dont see it as a problem.
> I don't use my gmail account much, but Google's
> gmail spam filtering is supposed to be top notch.
Yep, tho its nothing like perfect.
> Surely they, with all their Ph.D.s, could figure out something similar to prevent their Usenet gateway from
> flooding newsgroups with crud, if they wanted to.
You dont need a PhD to do that. Not a shred of rocket science whatever required.
> But they're just stuck at sort of a point of stability where they aren't going to drop Usenet but they aren't
> going to invest any significant effort into it either.
Or they dont see usenet spam as being a problem.
> So, what's it going to take to get them to take action?
Nothing, zero, nada, ziltch.
> They need to feel, for some reason, that it's a priority.
Nope.
> That motivation would probably have to come from one of two places:
Nope.
> either they have to suddenly think Usenet is more important to them strategically,
And that it never ever will be.
> which as I said before is tough to do
Impossible, actually.
> since generating interest in Usenet was always a problem for DejaNews and is also a problem for Google,
They've done MUCH better than Deja ever did.
They've even managed to get a hell of a lot to use the web interface.
> or alternatively Google needs to feel that they are in some sense morally obligated to do something about it.
Not a chance.
> That second way is actually a possibility, I believe,
More fool you.
> at a company like Google, but you have to get the ear of the right person.
Nope, there is no one that gets any say on that who gives a damn about that.
> And you're not going to do that with an e-mail campaign, probably.
Certainly. That crap will just get autoflushed where it belongs.
> (You probably have to know somebody -- the right somebody.)
That wont work either. They're absolutely guaranteed to have considered
spam and you wont be able to add anything to that consideration.
George
>
> So, what's it going to take to get them to take action? They
> need to feel, for some reason, that it's a priority. That motivation
> would probably have to come from one of two places: either they
> have to suddenly think Usenet is more important to them strategically,
> which as I said before is tough to do since generating interest in
> Usenet was always a problem for DejaNews and is also a problem for
> Google, or alternatively Google needs to feel that they are in some
> sense morally obligated to do something about it. That second way
> is actually a possibility, I believe, at a company like Google,
> but you have to get the ear of the right person. And you're not
> going to do that with an e-mail campaign, probably. (You probably
> have to know somebody -- the right somebody.)
>
> - Logan
They would actually have to believe in their "do no harm" policy.
My buddy has a business. His office/shop has been at the same place for
at least 20 years but google erroneously shows his business as located
at the the home of his elderly poor health parents. So salesmen
frequently come pounding on their door thinking it is a business.
He has been trying to get google to change the listing for over a year.
First he created an account as directed on their website and submitted
all of the documentation they requested. After months went buy he spent
hours on the phone trying to connect to someone who actually cared.
After leaving various voicemails someone called back. After he explained
what was going on they told him to build an account and submit the
documentation they request. He explained that he did that and gave then
the name of the account and they claimed they would need to find and
review it. Months go by and my friend keeps calling but no one has
returned his call.
clams_casino
Google believes spam is a freedom of speech thing.
It's best to simply filter out all google group postings as they are
99.997866% spam.