Have you had a gas furnace installed in past 5 years? Need feedback please....
OhioGuy
double. They were about 60% efficient when they were new, and now we
are probably lucky if they are 50% efficient. We got hit with heating
bills of over $300 here in Ohio last winter. Now I've heard that the
cost of natural gas may be going up 25%, and that our local utility is
switching over to a new policy where they will be changing what they
charge every month with the market, instead of changing once a year as
they did in the past. That sort of scares me - especially if there is a
shortage or something.
Obviously, the furnaces we have are old. They've been kept
maintained, since we have people come out and clean the ducts every 2-3
years, and check the furnace every year or two. However, they are just
plain inefficient, and after more than 40 years, it is about time to
replace them.
One of the reasons I kept putting it off was because I thought it was
going to cost us between $3,000 and $3,500 per side, so a grand total of
$6k to $7k. I had some places come by and give us bids on what they
would charge, and was pleasantly surprised. I got bids for putting in
an 80% efficient furnace, which could pretty much go in where our
current one is without any changes. I also got bids for a 92% efficient
furnace, which would require PVC outlet and have water drainage.
Best bid so far is from a place called Joe's Heating & Air. They
have a 90K BTU 80% efficient furnace they will install on both sides of
our place for $2,300. They also have a 92% efficient furnace they will
install on both sides of our place for $3,500. (so each bid is for two
furnaces) They offer about an 8% discount for doing 2 with the higher
efficiency furnaces, and an 11% discount for 2 of the more efficient
furnaces. (rather than just 1)
We will likely be living here this winter, but moving next summer, so
personally, we will get whatever benefit from lower heating bills this
winter only. After that, it will be a rental property.
Obviously, I'd like to save $1,200 up front. However, we also like
the idea of the furnace being more efficient, and whoever is living here
having an extra $25 a month they won't have to spend on their heating
bills. Complicating things is that I've been told the more efficient
furnaces tend to need repair work more often. Some technicians have
told me that, while others have said they don't see much difference.
Mostly it just comes down to repair - I don't want to pay more for a
furnace that is going to have problems twice as often.
So, I'm hoping that some of you folks can give me some feedback. I'd
like to hear from anyone who has had their gas furnace replaced in the
last 5 years or so. Please let us know if it is the standard 80%
efficient or the higher 90%+. Then let us know if you've had repair
issues. I'll use the info to try to make a better decision on whether
to get the cheaper or more expensive model.
Thanks!
JonquilJan
(couldn't afford to go much higher) total coast - including installation
and removal of old furnace - was $1618.18 which included all labor and
taxes. Will be having the installer come next month to check things out and
replace filters (difficult for me as I am disabled).
Old furnace had issues with the burners (safety issues) and was so old
replacements couldn't be found (even universal burners were not available).
Same furnace as when I moved here in 1981.
In live in northern New York state.
First time in years I have not been shivering under the covers at night.
As for the cost of fuel (propane) have price locked in for the season with a
payment up front and monthly payments for 10 months.
JonquilJan
Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying
phil scott
Im in the business... cheapest is you go to WW Grainger and get an
80%- 87% effiicient furnace (those are simple and repairable)
for about $600 dollars and simply set it in place of the old one.
what you need to know is: is it up-draft or down draft... (blows up
or down) get the same configuration in a new one, it should be a
little smaller than the old one... once its in place you will have a
gap to flll on the top or bottom with a sheet metal spacer... measure
that up, go to your local sheet metal shop and have them make you one
for 50 dollars or so... that should save you at least $1,000 maybe
$2,000 or more on the install. Make sure you connect the flue
properly, thats not difficult, directions will be included in the
furnace. home depot will have any pieces you need.
***
Next get a matress warmer, then a programmable thermostat... have
night set back at 50F or cooler, but not below 40F or so.. to avoid
condensation. then use the mattress warmer. maybe put a small
electric heater in the bedrooms also, safe oil filled or quatz type.
that will cut your heat ing costs dramatically... my guess you can get
it under 100 dollars a month, esp of you wear a sweater in the living
room and a space heater on your feet while sitting... you could cut
heating cost 50 dollars a month in the milder months.
Phil scott
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
ps the old one will have a lable inside that says iinput... 100,000
btu/hr or whatever
get the new one with the same input rating,.. or one notch smaller
since the new ones
are more efficient.
If you want to be ultra safe, hire a mechanical contractor to inspect
your installation when its done, or
call the gas company, they will often do it free.
Phil scott
OhioGuy
> 80%- 87% effiicient furnace (those are simple and repairable)
Phil, I wasn't aware that there was a "traditional" (I.E. - simpler)
gas furnace out there that had efficiency above 80%. You're saying they
go up to 87%, yet you can still just sit it in there where the old one
was, without using the pvc & such? I've always been told that in order
to get efficiency above 80%, a new system would have a number of
differences, such as water dripline, actively vented exhaust through
pvc, and much more complex circuit boards, etc.
I was looking at a Goodman 92%, but if you're saying somebody has 85%
to 87% without the complexity, I'd like to know more. Thanks!
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
A $200 unvented gas space heater with a thermostat and a dehumidifier or
window AC in the room with a humidistat can condense the water vapor in
the combustion gas (11% of the output) for close to 100% efficiency.
Nick
phil scott
Im in the larger system business and see the smaller systems only
occasionally these days.. You may be correct
on the 80% number. it seems you know how to investigate that.
what I dont like about the high effiicency furnaces is the
cost of repairs... see if you can find a Rheem furnace, they make
some pretty simple high efficiency systems.
Phil scott
phil scott
Ive seen repairs on those way over 500 dollars.. that chews into the
gas savings... my
preferance is simple sytems then limit the run time.
on other options.... the OP said he was in Washington state I believe,
they have some of the nations
lowest electric utility rates Ive seen...havent checked lately
though. If thats the case a heat pump will be
the cheapest to operate... but not cheap to install. an 80-85% gas
furnace remains one of the better options after y ou factor in the
added cost of a heat pump or a 95% furnace... depends.... the
smaller the system the more important it is go go simple.
the larger the system the better a high efficiency approach pays off.
Cheapest of all (only slightly flakey) is two chinese window or
through the wall heat pumps... about $200 each. one for the bedroom
you sleep in, the other for the rest of the house... cheapest heat
available, except for days when its below 35F or so, then their
electric heat strips kick in. in some climates thats only occasional
though. .. mattress warmers, and a few small electric spot heaters
(safe type).
For a large poorly insulated home, say over 2,000 sq ft or larger, and
the owners wanting to keep it toasty in the winter, a 95% furnace
would pay off... if it ends up being trouble free. (I recommend Rheem
for that, a US company that used to make cheap equipment, but sold to
Japanese owners a while back, now its world class...and still
reasonable...some of the simplest controls ive seen)
ymmv
Phil scott
phil scott
Hey...I replied before readiing your post in detail...duh... that
200 dollar unvented condensing heater sounds like
a very good deal especially in cold climates where you can use the
water vapor in the winter to keep the humidity up.
Im assuming they have CO alarm built in or whatever, some ventilation
requirements..... those would put CO2 into the
room air though, that hasnt been a problem for the last 100 years or
so.... until the tree hugger bogus lawyer contingent made CO2 into a
'toxic' gas...and now in calif at least requres CO2 alarms (we breath
out CO2).... not to be confused with CO (carbon monoxide, a deadly
toxin... comes fom incomplete combustion, best cure is an alarm.
the 200 dollar figure sounds like it would be low though... maybe its
chinese. then Id make sure to install a CO alarm to be ultra safe.
Phil scott
Vic Smith
I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new main
board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.
The electronic controls they use on these modern furnaces are geared
to "safety" as much as efficiency.
A simple thermocouple controlled gas valve and keeping a clean flue
isn't enough apparently, and they have flue induction motors, flue
pressure sensors, flame sensors, flame overflow sensors, etc.,
requiring a control board.
What I suggest is finding a good furnace repairman who works of
different models and get his advice on selecting your next furnace.
The trick is finding that guy.
--Vic
phil scott
wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>
>
>
>
>
> <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >On Sep 28, 6:48 am, OhioGuy <n...@none.net> wrote:
> >> Im in the business... cheapest is you go to WW Grainger and get an
> >> > 80%- 87% effiicient furnace (those are simple and repairable)
>
> >> Phil, I wasn't aware that there was a "traditional" (I.E. - simpler)
> >> gas furnace out there that had efficiency above 80%. You're saying they
> >> go up to 87%, yet you can still just sit it in there where the old one
> >> was, without using the pvc & such? I've always been told that in order
> >> to get efficiency above 80%, a new system would have a number of
> >> differences, such as water dripline, actively vented exhaust through
> >> pvc, and much more complex circuit boards, etc.
>
> >> I was looking at a Goodman 92%, but if you're saying somebody has 85%
> >> to 87% without the complexity, I'd like to know more. Thanks!
>
> >Im in the larger system business and see the smaller systems only
> >occasionally these days.. You may be correct
> >on the 80% number. it seems you know how to investigate that.
> >what I dont like about the high effiicency furnaces is the
> >cost of repairs... see if you can find a Rheem furnace, they make
> >some pretty simple high efficiency systems.
>
> I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new main
> board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.
that was prior to the Japanese buying Rheem, in that time frame and
earlier they made low end equipment, about
the same as the rest of the builder grade equipment in the US.... its
only been Japanese owned for 5 years or so.
their latest is quite impressive...one of the 97% hot water heaters I
purchased for a job had a 6 wire control system, with
quick change sensors for fast trouble shooting.. US boilers run to a
hundred or more wire connections...some are a real
pain.
however, it behoves a person to do their own reseaarch...thiis is
just my opinion.
Phil scott
> The electronic controls they use on these modern furnaces are geared
> to "safety" as much as efficiency.
> A simple thermocouple controlled gas valve and keeping a clean flue
> isn't enough apparently, and they have flue induction motors, flue
> pressure sensors, flame sensors, flame overflow sensors, etc.,
> requiring a control board.
> What I suggest is finding a good furnace repairman who works of
> different models and get his advice on selecting your next furnace.
> The trick is finding that guy.
>
> --Vic- Hide quoted text -
nicks...@ece.villanova.edu
>On Sep 28, 9:17=A0am, nicksans...@ece.villanova.edu wrote:
>>
>> A $200 unvented gas space heater with a thermostat and a dehumidifier or
>> window AC in the room with a humidistat can condense the water vapor in
>> the combustion gas (11% of the output) for close to 100% efficiency.
>
On the $200 gas heater or the $80 AC? :-)
Nick
Vic Smith
<ph...@philscott.net> wrote:
>On Sep 28, 10:14 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>>
>> I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new main
>> board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.
>
>that was prior to the Japanese buying Rheem, in that time frame and
>earlier they made low end equipment, about
>the same as the rest of the builder grade equipment in the US.... its
>only been Japanese owned for 5 years or so.
>
>their latest is quite impressive...one of the 97% hot water heaters I
>purchased for a job had a 6 wire control system, with
>quick change sensors for fast trouble shooting.. US boilers run to a
>hundred or more wire connections...some are a real
>pain.
>
>however, it behoves a person to do their own reseaarch...thiis is
>just my opinion.
>
One problem is what you mentioned - the models change.
The guy that repaired mine didn't care for Rheem and likes Weil.
But he did comment that he was surprised at the quality of my
Rheem's burner assembly. Maybe he was being nice.
I had done a few minor repairs on the thing, but this problem was off
the troubleshooting flow chart on the case, so I called a pro.
I was worried about getting somebody good, but when I talked to this
guy on the phone after finding him on the net, I felt better.
I told him I wanted him to send somebody who knew Rheem White-Rodgers
controls, and he sharply said, "That's me - *I'm* coming."
Still, I was shocked and laughed out loud when he had the thing
working in about 2 minutes. Me and my son had spent a couple hours
farting around with it to no avail. Not to mention the time I spent
looking for info on the net.
He used both hands to flex the main board, freeing a stuck relay.
Didn't push me to buy a new board but said the relay could stick
again, since the contacts were probably burnt. Don't want that
when the temps are below zero, so I told him to replace it.
It's one of the more expensive home furnace boards, costing @$350.
He could have just left with his $85 for the service call.
This incident reminded me of the joke about paying the mechanic a
large sum to tap something with a hammer to get it working. You're
not paying for the tap, you're paying for "where" to tap.
This circuit board had what seemed like a hundred wires coming off it
and as he replaced it he muttered once he never saw so many damn
neutrals in his life. He also did an adjustment to the squirrel cage
eliminating a noise it was making. I'll call him again if I have
further furnace problems, or need other work. He knows a lot good
guys in the trades. Got one coming today to waterproof a couple of
foundation leaks in the basement.
Anyway, the trick is always finding the right guy/advice. Any time I
get something done right the first time for a decent price I feel
lucky.
--Vic
Rod Speed
Thats the main thing that the net still hasnt fixed, providing decent reliable access
to people like that, or even to the info thats in the head of someone like that either.
phil scott
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:26:22 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>
>
>
>
>
> <p...@philscott.net> wrote:
> >On Sep 28, 10:14 am, Vic Smith <thismailautodele...@comcast.net>
> >wrote:
> >> On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:51:05 -0700 (PDT), phil scott
>
> >> I've got a 10 year old Rheem Criterion II that just needed a new main
> >> board. Cost $480 to get it fixed. It's a so-called 80%.
>
> >that was prior to the Japanese buying Rheem, in that time frame and
> >earlier they made low end equipment, about
> >the same as the rest of the builder grade equipment in the US.... its
> >only been Japanese owned for 5 years or so.
>
> >their latest is quite impressive...one of the 97% hot water heaters I
> >purchased for a job had a 6 wire control system, with
> >quick change sensors for fast trouble shooting.. US boilers run to a
> >hundred or more wire connections...some are a real
> >pain.
>
> >however, it behoves a person to do their own reseaarch...thiis is
> >just my opinion.
>
> One problem is what you mentioned - the models change.
> The guy that repaired mine didn't care for Rheem and likes Weil.
> But he did comment that he was surprised at the quality of my
> Rheem's burner assembly. Maybe he was being nice.
weil is samo samo... his local wholesaler probably carriies it.
Rheems reputation where it
is cheap was prior to the japanese buy out. its maybe the best now,
especially for the price,
and simple. thats important.
> I had done a few minor repairs on the thing, but this problem was off
> the troubleshooting flow chart on the case, so I called a pro.
> I was worried about getting somebody good, but when I talked to this
> guy on the phone after finding him on the net, I felt better.
> I told him I wanted him to send somebody who knew Rheem White-Rodgers
> controls, and he sharply said, "That's me - *I'm* coming."
everybody knows white rogers, etc... its the standard along with a
couple of others that
work the same way.
> Still, I was shocked and laughed out loud when he had the thing
> working in about 2 minutes. Me and my son had spent a couple hours
> farting around with it to no avail. Not to mention the time I spent
> looking for info on the net.
probably went off on a high temp cut out...he just pushed the button.
> He used both hands to flex the main board, freeing a stuck relay.
that was clever.
> Didn't push me to buy a new board but said the relay could stick
> again, since the contacts were probably burnt. Don't want that
> when the temps are below zero, so I told him to replace it.
he sounds smart and honest.
> It's one of the more expensive home furnace boards, costing @$350.
> He could have just left with his $85 for the service call.
> This incident reminded me of the joke about paying the mechanic a
> large sum to tap something with a hammer to get it working. You're
> not paying for the tap, you're paying for "where" to tap.
> This circuit board had what seemed like a hundred wires coming off it
thats why i like simpler systems....just a few connections to go
south.
> and as he replaced it he muttered once he never saw so many damn
> neutrals in his life.
no shortage of idiots in some engineering depts.
> He also did an adjustment to the squirrel cage
> eliminating a noise it was making. I'll call him again if I have
> further furnace problems, or need other work. He knows a lot good
> guys in the trades. Got one coming today to waterproof a couple of
> foundation leaks in the basement.
> Anyway, the trick is always finding the right guy/advice. Any time I
> get something done right the first time for a decent price I feel
> lucky.
you did well.
Phil scott
phil scott
>
> - Show quoted text -
PS if the furnace was over 7 years old though, id of replaced it....
OhioGuy
often that the circuitry boards on the 90+ % efficient models cost $300
or more to replace. I've also been told that they need servicing more.
Total cost for parts and labor to have two 70,000 BTU input Goodman
80% furnaces installed (one on each side of our place) - $2,300.
We tested it out for a bit, and I was surprised with how much more
warm air seemed to be coming out of the vents.
phil scott
price was right....not cheap, but it was fair. Those will probably
go for about 10 years with no service what so
ever. ... then maybe a bad relay or hi limit switch will fail.. those
ar cheap, labor is reasonable for that.
If you want them to last longer, oil the motors and clean the blower
wheels after 5 years.. then oil the motors every year
or two after that. (they have removable oil plugs over each end
bell)..see what the owners manual says about that..
Phil scott