How much is your electric bill?
OhioGuy
winter heating of our home in the coldest month as well. (I switched from
natural gas to electric when our furnace acted up a bit, and when I heard
that natural gas was going up this winter about 20% compared to electric)
Our house is 1,300 square feet. Though I've insulated it and done a lot of
caulking, it's 90 years old, and I don't think I'll ever really make it
efficient when it comes to heating. (at least by today's standards)
Al Bundy
OG throws us another bone.
We don't know what he pays for electric per unit or what type of
heaters he uses. Apparently, OG has one of these "flex fuel" homes
where you just flip a switch from gas to electric. Or did he buy space
heaters at Wal*Mart? The gas furnace "acted up a bit." Does that sound
like a major expense requiring a switch to normally more expensive
electric? He's insulated the home, but won't tell us to what degree.
Once a person has done all they can, it doesn't matter what the hell
other's heat bill is.
While I know in my heart he's spoofing us again, I will say that he
could have an infrared analysis to determine any heat leaks that might
be addressed.
James
Colour me sceptical.....
Jeff
> Last month ours was roughly $325. It sounds high, but that also includes
> winter heating of our home in the coldest month as well. (I switched from
> natural gas to electric when our furnace acted up a bit, and when I heard
> that natural gas was going up this winter about 20% compared to electric)
What are you paying for electric? Are you using a heat pump?
There's about 29 kWhr in a Therm.
So if you are paying $.10/kWHr that would be $2.90 Therm. That would
be for resistance heating. A Heat Pump will leverage against that by up
to around 3, much less to even if it is near freezing.
Natural Gas is a much cheaper heat source in a cold climate than
electric.
> Our house is 1,300 square feet. Though I've insulated it and done a lot of
> caulking, it's 90 years old, and I don't think I'll ever really make it
> efficient when it comes to heating. (at least by today's standards)
Did you insulate the walls? Have you done anything with the windows
like Bubble Wrap or storm windows or just blocking them off? I live in a
1920 house, and have done all that and found my comfort factor has gone
way up. I'm also in Atlanta where winters are 10 to 15 degrees warmer
than Ohio (Average 2800 degree days versus 5500 for Columbus, Ohio). My
electric last month was $73 ($90 in January) for 1800 SF, no gas,
heating with electric space heaters and a bit of solar. Now, I think I
can do better than that.
No matter how much insulation you pour into an attic if you have
uninsulated walls or a floor your heat is leaving that way. I've spent
about $250 insulating the walls with cocoon and I think it is one of the
best things I've ever done. You smaller home should be much less.
Jeff
>
>
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
"Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
news:13tiut9...@corp.supernews.com...
> No matter how much insulation you pour into an attic if you have
> uninsulated walls or a floor your heat is leaving that way. I've spent
> about $250 insulating the walls with cocoon and I think it is one of the
> best things I've ever done. You smaller home should be much less.
what's cocoon and how is it installed?
Jeff
It's recycled paper treated with borax to make it fire retardant and
insect proof. Borax is used in eye wash so the insulation is much more
enviro friendly than the other options. It's also the cheapest by a good
margin.
It's sold compressed in bags. Each $8 bag will dense pack 32 SF of
wall to R13. Because it's dense, it will also stop air infiltration
leaks. So, if you have an old house, pre 1980, there's a good chance
that you have uninsulated R3 walls and this will cut heat losses there
by a factor of 5. It really makes a formerly unheatable room stay warm
even when you turn the heat off.
You install this by drilling 1" holes above and below the firebreaks
in every 16" wall section (that's usually two holes per section). Cocoon
has nice directions on doing this. If you have sheetrock, it's dead easy
to drill through. If you have plaster/lath it'll be easier to cut the
holes outside as plaster will eat your hole saw teeth off. It's a lot of
holes! You plug em with a can of spray insulation and spackle over that.
Get a couple of friends over. Have one of them chop up the insulation
with a shovel and dump it in the blower (blowers are free rentals with
20 bags of insulation). You'll need someone running the nozzle end and
perhaps someone to shut off the machine when a wall cavity is full. It's
an easy job with three people and more rushed with 2.
There's a few things I've learned along the way. Let me know if you do
this and I'll write up some more detailed instruction and things to
beware of (like no one every has the nozzle and you'll probably have to
make one out of a funnel, you also need an adjustable blower and some
aren't).
BTW, adding attic insulation with cocoon is dead easy.
Jeff
Seerialmom
I've done the attic/cocoon insulation..and it is easy. But don't do
it during the summer...those attics get very hot!
Jeff
You've got a real good point there! A hot attic can be a dangerous place.
It will help with your AC bills though. Since attics capture so much
solar heat, adding insulation here can help with keeping the house
cooler, as will vents and fans.q
I topped up the attic and changed out the window ACs to Energy Star
models, so I'll be curious to see the effect on the bills this year.
Jeff
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
> You install this by drilling 1" holes above and below the firebreaks in
> every 16" wall section (that's usually two holes per section). Cocoon has
> nice directions on doing this. If you have sheetrock, it's dead easy to
> drill through. If you have plaster/lath it'll be easier to cut the holes
> outside as plaster will eat your hole saw teeth off. It's a lot of holes!
> You plug em with a can of spray insulation and spackle over that.
100 yr old house = plaster. nice wood lap on exterior.
Jeff
house later this year anyways...
If you decide to do the plaster, you'll need a carbide blade and some
way to control the dust... Alternatively you can pull some of the siding
off, but I think that's a much bigger job.
Jeff
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>> "Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
>> news:13tj75f...@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>>> You install this by drilling 1" holes above and below the firebreaks
>>> in every 16" wall section (that's usually two holes per section). Cocoon
>>> has nice directions on doing this. If you have sheetrock, it's dead easy
>>> to drill through. If you have plaster/lath it'll be easier to cut the
>>> holes outside as plaster will eat your hole saw teeth off. It's a lot of
>>> holes! You plug em with a can of spray insulation and spackle over that.
>>
>> 100 yr old house = plaster. nice wood lap on exterior.
> I cut mine through the thinnest part of the wood. I'll be painting the
> house later this year anyways...
i just don't see using spackle on exterior wood.
Jeff
to fill and then top it off with whatever outdoor product you like. I
think I used some kind of powdered wood putty. Theoretically you can buy
1" plugs, or you can use the ones your hole saw cut. One inch isn't a
big hole and I just filled it with spray insulation, trimmed and
puttied/whatever over that. You'll need to work that out. If you've ever
done any outdoor painting, you should have a good idea of the prepwork
to finish this off.
Jeff
m...@privacy.net
>You've got a real good point there! A hot attic can be a dangerous place
Good point
When IS a good time to add attic insulation then as far
as being comfortable to get up there and do it? The
fall maybe?
Jeff
Or the spring. But in reality, just tune in to your local weather.
You can do it in every season if you pick the right days. There's always
cool and overcast spells in the summer and it doesn't take long to spray
it in the attic. Just don't do it on a hot sunny day!
If you are going to do this, do it sooner than later so you can enjoy
the fruits of your investment.
Jeff
m...@privacy.net
> If you are going to do this, do it sooner than later so you can enjoy
>the fruits of your investment.
Well I rent.... and was gonna ask my landlord to do
it... just blow some in the attic as I'm sure what is
up there has settled.
How hard is it to blow it in? One man job.... or two
man?
I may tell him I will do it myself if he will discount
it from the rent one month
Jeff
> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> If you are going to do this, do it sooner than later so you can enjoy
>> the fruits of your investment.
>
> Well I rent.... and was gonna ask my landlord to do
> it... just blow some in the attic as I'm sure what is
> up there has settled.
>
> How hard is it to blow it in? One man job.... or two
> man?
It's two. You need someone to fill the blower. It's really easy. Just
make sure you don't add insulation where you don't want it (like over
soffit vents or on recessed lighting fixtures that may run hotter). Read
the cocoon link I posted.
The minimum free rental seems to be at 20 bags or $160.
Jeff
Cindy Hamilton
My walls are concrete block. The sheetrock is attached to thin
furring
strips and skim-coated with plaster. (The outside is faced with
granite.)
No place to put insulation without a LOT of trouble.
But it's a nice idea for a normal house.
Cindy Hamilton
Jeff
Well, I certainly hope you live in a temperate climate!
Jeff
Cindy Hamilton
Not particularly. Not particular intemperate, either. Ann Arbor,
Michigan.
My heating bills run about $100 - $120 per month; it's not a very big
house.
Cindy Hamilton
Seerialmom
>
> - Show quoted text -
I wish I could say I saw "dramatic" changes having done the same
thing. I didn't wait to see what my utility bills would be when I
bought my house; the first thing to change was the original heater/AC
unit. All appliances are "energy star" and dual pane windows
throughout. I also had all the ducting sealed/repaired and had a
whole house fan installed. If anything, the bill has stayed fairly
consistent through the seasons (higher in summer/winter).
Jeff
The only suggestion I might have is to add a bit of solar. A lot of
resources here:
Jeff
> Cindy Hamilton
Jeff
> On Mar 13, 5:32 pm, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>> Seerialmom wrote:
>>> On Mar 13, 2:29 pm, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>>> AllEmailDeletedImmediately wrote:
>>>>> "Jeff" <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:13tiut9...@corp.supernews.com...
>>
>> I topped up the attic and changed out the window ACs to Energy Star
>> models, so I'll be curious to see the effect on the bills this year.
>>
>> Jeff- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I wish I could say I saw "dramatic" changes having done the same
> thing. I didn't wait to see what my utility bills would be when I
> bought my house; the first thing to change was the original heater/AC
> unit. All appliances are "energy star" and dual pane windows
> throughout.
Energy Star isn't necessarily more efficient. I think that for the
window AC units the main requirement is that they cycle off between
cooling cycles. Non Energy Star ACs run the fan all the time. So you
save money when the AC should be off. You still have to shop for and
spend more money on the higher EER units.
I also had all the ducting sealed/repaired and had a
> whole house fan installed. If anything, the bill has stayed fairly
> consistent through the seasons (higher in summer/winter).
Well, that sounds like a very good sign. It's usually the summer and
winter bills that kill you!
I had some fairly old window units, the ones I bought are all 10.7 or
so. We had one string of 100 degree days and my impression was that the
house was more comfortable (I added an AC in the Kitchen, what a great
idea that was!) and the bill was less than some other months.
I think it will take several years for my investment (almost $400) to
pay back, but I think you had the right idea in getting this done right
away. If you are going to do it, why wait!
Jeff
Cindy Hamilton
The engineer in the next cubicle over said that he ran the numbers on
solar here (the high school has a solar array for some reason), and
we don't get enough sun in the winter to make it viable.
In any case, I'm just not interested in lowering my heating bills
fractionally
by installing yet another thing that I have to maintain.
Cindy Hamilton
Seerialmom
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Your house should stay relatively cool; not so sure about warm in the
winter, though. Most of your heat gain probably comes from windows
and roof, so dual (or triple panes) and good attic insulation would
work. A nice shade tree wouldn't hurt, either. I'm betting you could
replace interior sheetrock with a slightly thicker version to increase
the insulation though.
Cindy Hamilton
Actually, the house is more difficult to cool than it is to heat. If
I let
the walls warm up, it takes the air conditioner an eternity to cool
the
house down. I don't make any use of my programmable thermostat
during the cooling season.
We've got double-pane windows and I keep the (insulated) drapes drawn
appropriately.
The house is surrounded by shade trees, and there's a good deal of
attic
insulation (although I'm sure that we--like most people--could use
more).
I don't think simply replacing the sheetrock would be much help. If I
were
to go to that trouble, I could fur out the walls with 2x4's and
insulate
the cavity. I don't think I'd want to go more than 2x4, or I'd lose
too
much square footage. You'd think an inch or two wouldn't matter, but
there are places where it might make it tricky to get between pieces
of furniture.
Overall, I'm satisfied with my energy efficiency. Otherwise, I'd do
something
about it.
Cindy Hamilton
Paul M. Eldridge
<angelica...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The house is surrounded by shade trees, and there's a good deal of attic
>insulation (although I'm sure that we--like most people--could use more).
>
>I don't think simply replacing the sheetrock would be much help. If I were
>to go to that trouble, I could fur out the walls with 2x4's and insulate
>the cavity. I don't think I'd want to go more than 2x4, or I'd lose too
>much square footage. You'd think an inch or two wouldn't matter, but
>there are places where it might make it tricky to get between pieces
>of furniture.
>
>Overall, I'm satisfied with my energy efficiency. Otherwise, I'd do
>something about it.
>
>Cindy Hamilton
Hi Cindy,
One and a half inches of Styrofoam insulation would provide you with
an additional R7.5 and assuming your un-insulated walls are
effectively R2.5 now, would cut your heat loss by 75%, plus make the
living space more comfortable. Even a modest half-inch of foam
insulation would theoretically cut your wall losses by half.
I bumped my home's wall insulation from R6 to R22.5 and although I
lost 1.5 inches of room depth I have no regrets. Fuel oil costs have
more than doubled in the past five years and I wouldn't be surprised
if they were to double again over the course of the next five.
I figure there are five things I gained from doing this work: 1)
ongoing financial savings (at current rates, about $0.70 per sq. ft.,
per year), 2) added comfort (I no longer feel as if the heat is being
sucked out of my body), 3) potentially higher resale value (all else
being equal, a more energy efficient home will be more desirable,
especially in an era of rapidly rising utility costs), 4) additional
thermal protection in the event of an extended power cut or equipment
breakdown (it could be the difference between riding out in relative
comfort or dealing with a burst water pipe) and, most importantly, 5)
the peace of mind of knowing I'm better protected from any future
increase in energy costs (i.e., that, hopefully, I will continue to
live comfortably and that I won't be forced out of my home because I
can no longer afford to maintain it).
Cheers,
Paul
Jeff
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:23:39 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> <angelica...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The house is surrounded by shade trees, and there's a good deal of attic
>> insulation (although I'm sure that we--like most people--could use more).
>>
>> I don't think simply replacing the sheetrock would be much help. If I were
>> to go to that trouble, I could fur out the walls with 2x4's and insulate
>> the cavity. I don't think I'd want to go more than 2x4, or I'd lose too
>> much square footage. You'd think an inch or two wouldn't matter, but
>> there are places where it might make it tricky to get between pieces
>> of furniture.
>>
>> Overall, I'm satisfied with my energy efficiency. Otherwise, I'd do
>> something about it.
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>
> Hi Cindy,
>
> One and a half inches of Styrofoam insulation would provide you with
> an additional R7.5 and assuming your un-insulated walls are
> effectively R2.5 now, would cut your heat loss by 75%, plus make the
> living space more comfortable. Even a modest half-inch of foam
> insulation would theoretically cut your wall losses by half.
>
> I bumped my home's wall insulation from R6 to R22.5 and although I
> lost 1.5 inches of room depth I have no regrets.
How did you get from R6 to R22.5 that sounds like 3" or so. What did you
do with the windows?
I like Paul's idea, although fiberglass wall batts are cheap, you
probably wouldn't need the 2x4's and that by itself would lower cost,
ease installation and remove the thermal break caused by the 2x4's.
Since you are going against a block wall, I think you might have some
moisture problems with the fiberglass that the styrofoam would ignore.
Damp fiberglass insulates poorly.
I've been on a bit of a crusade about insulating walls since I've
felt the results. Rooms are just more comfortable. If you have a hot or
a cold wall you can feel it. Thermal radiation is related to the surface
area and the 4th power of the temp difference. Many people only consider
air temp, and that is a mistake.
Now, I don't think Cindy's bills are bad, and if her walls are skim
coated with plaster rather just being sheetrock, I would be very
hesitant to redo that. Plaster just has a different look to it than
sheetrock. At least I like the way plaster walls look.
Fuel oil costs have
> more than doubled in the past five years and I wouldn't be surprised
> if they were to double again over the course of the next five.
>
> I figure there are five things I gained from doing this work: 1)
> ongoing financial savings (at current rates, about $0.70 per sq. ft.,
> per year), 2) added comfort (I no longer feel as if the heat is being
> sucked out of my body), 3) potentially higher resale value (all else
> being equal, a more energy efficient home will be more desirable,
> especially in an era of rapidly rising utility costs), 4) additional
> thermal protection in the event of an extended power cut or equipment
> breakdown (it could be the difference between riding out in relative
> comfort or dealing with a burst water pipe) and, most importantly,
Insulating makes a big difference in smoothing out the temperature
variations. I've been using the days heat to carry me through the night
and I never could do that before. With the uninsulated walls it seemed
like as soon as the heat was off, the room was cooling, and in a few
hours it was like there had never been any heat! It's the same effect in
the summer where the room stays cooler even without the AC on.
Cindy sounds like she's all right with slowing heat gain by being
shady. I don't know how much the insulted drapes help though, unless
they are tightly fit. Light colored might help.
Jeff
Paul M. Eldridge
>>Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
>> I bumped my home's wall insulation from R6 to R22.5 and although I
>> lost 1.5 inches of room depth I have no regrets.
>
>How did you get from R6 to R22.5 that sounds like 3" or so. What did you
>do with the windows?
Hi Jeff,
I inserted a half-inch of Styrofoam (R3) inside the wall cavity and
caulked the outside edges to make it airtight. I then added three and
half-inches of fibreglass insulation (R12), a six mill polyethylene
vapour barrier and an additional inch and a half of foam (R7.5) on top
as shown here:
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287586/other/bedroom---bare-wall.php
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287587/other/bedroom---caulked-%26-half-inch-foam.php
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287588/other/bedroom---fibreglass-%26-one-%26-half-inch-foam.php
http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287589/other/bedroom---final-taping.php
> I like Paul's idea, although fiberglass wall batts are cheap, you
>probably wouldn't need the 2x4's and that by itself would lower cost,
>ease installation and remove the thermal break caused by the 2x4's.
>Since you are going against a block wall, I think you might have some
>moisture problems with the fiberglass that the styrofoam would ignore.
>Damp fiberglass insulates poorly.
Absolutely true. Insulation has to remain dry to be effective. In
addition, the thermal performance of fibreglass insulation falls off
rather dramatically at colder temperatures whereas that of Styrofoam
remains fairly consistent.
> I've been on a bit of a crusade about insulating walls since I've
>felt the results. Rooms are just more comfortable. If you have a hot or
>a cold wall you can feel it. Thermal radiation is related to the surface
>area and the 4th power of the temp difference. Many people only consider
>air temp, and that is a mistake.
A simple test would be to hold a small piece of Styrofoam against an
exterior wall. With one hand holding it steady, press the other hand
on the surface of the Styofoam and hold it there for a minute or so,
then place this same hand in direct contact with the wall and feel the
difference.
> Now, I don't think Cindy's bills are bad, and if her walls are skim
>coated with plaster rather just being sheetrock, I would be very
>hesitant to redo that. Plaster just has a different look to it than
>sheetrock. At least I like the way plaster walls look.
I agree. My previous home had plaster walls and detailed cove
mouldings and so I left them as is. I wasn't altogether happy with my
decision, but I believe it was the right call.
> Insulating makes a big difference in smoothing out the temperature
>variations. I've been using the days heat to carry me through the night
>and I never could do that before. With the uninsulated walls it seemed
>like as soon as the heat was off, the room was cooling, and in a few
>hours it was like there had never been any heat! It's the same effect in
>the summer where the room stays cooler even without the AC on.
That's been my experience as well. When the winds are blowing 70 and
80 kph (as they have been here these past couple days) and when
temperatures drop to -25C and you've lost power, you want all the help
you can get and likely a whole lot more.
Cheers,
Paul
Jeff
Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:24:50 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>>> Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
>
>>> I bumped my home's wall insulation from R6 to R22.5 and although I
>>> lost 1.5 inches of room depth I have no regrets.
>> How did you get from R6 to R22.5 that sounds like 3" or so. What did you
>> do with the windows?
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I inserted a half-inch of Styrofoam (R3) inside the wall cavity and
> caulked the outside edges to make it airtight. I then added three and
> half-inches of fibreglass insulation (R12), a six mill polyethylene
> vapour barrier and an additional inch and a half of foam (R7.5) on top
> as shown here:
>
Yowza!
Nice job sealing everything. For an average well insulated house, one
third of the heat loss is through air infiltration. It doesn't look like
anything is going through that wall!
> http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287586/other/bedroom---bare-wall.php
> http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287587/other/bedroom---caulked-%26-half-inch-foam.php
> http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287588/other/bedroom---fibreglass-%26-one-%26-half-inch-foam.php
> http://server3.pictiger.com/img/287589/other/bedroom---final-taping.php
>
>> I like Paul's idea, although fiberglass wall batts are cheap, you
>> probably wouldn't need the 2x4's and that by itself would lower cost,
>> ease installation and remove the thermal break caused by the 2x4's.
>> Since you are going against a block wall, I think you might have some
>> moisture problems with the fiberglass that the styrofoam would ignore.
>> Damp fiberglass insulates poorly.
>
> Absolutely true. Insulation has to remain dry to be effective. In
> addition, the thermal performance of fibreglass insulation falls off
> rather dramatically at colder temperatures whereas that of Styrofoam
> remains fairly consistent.
I've heard that also. I think what happens is air currents inside the
insulation lower the R value. I know the cellulose doesn't suffer from R
value loss when you need it most and it would seem to be the same for
styrofoam.
No woodstove?
you want all the help
> you can get and likely a whole lot more.
Wow. I think you made the right decision going to R22. Since the
walls are going to be your weak link in the envelope, going the extra
step will pay off. BTW, it was 70F here today! But then again we had a
tornado in town last friday!
You might wish to consider making some "plugs" for the windows out of
styro and fabric for those heatless nights although the bedroom window
looks small and tight.
Nice job!
Jeff
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
P.O.W.
<c100f473-7d77-4156...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Seerialmom <seeri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> No place to put insulation without a LOT of trouble.
actually you don't "need" insulation if you heat with Radiant heating.
It works the same way the Sun heats the earth.,
The air is not heated, objects are warmed by Radiation.
Hint; the source of the heat must be in the space. not in the basement.
--
when you believe the only tool you have is a hammer.
problems tend to look like nails.
Jeff
> In article
> <c100f473-7d77-4156...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Seerialmom <seeri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> No place to put insulation without a LOT of trouble.
>
> actually you don't "need" insulation if you heat with Radiant heating.
>
> It works the same way the Sun heats the earth.,
> The air is not heated, objects are warmed by Radiation.
>
> Hint; the source of the heat must be in the space. not in the basement.
>
1) Radiation: By being near something warm
2) Conduction: Insulation slows conduction losses
3) Convection: Air circulation currents convect heat
Now, if you are outside and sitting by a fire, then you are being
heated by radiation.
The problem with that is that only one side is being warmed. Inside a
house radiant heat heats all the objects inside the room including the
walls. Those objects in turn warm (or cool) the house occupants, just as
a radiator does. The temperature of a radiant floor is just a few
degrees warmer than the rest of the environment because the surface area
is large. Now, if you have cold walls, then you will feel those just as
surely as you feel the warmth from the floor.
Radiant heat works better in drafty and poorly insulated spaces, but
it does not mean that you wouldn't be more comfortable in a better
insulated space and that your heat bill would be lower.
Radiant heat (from broad area sources) is more comfortable than what
some people refer to as scorched air heating.
Jeff
Cindy Hamilton
> P.O.W. wrote:
> > In article
> > <c100f473-7d77-4156-b148-dc699521d...@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Thank you all for your very kind remarks and recommendations.
However, I am not going to rip up my interior walls because:
I don't want to perform the work; I have other projects lined up.
I don't want to live with the mess.
I don't want to do anything that would affect the lovely cove
ceiling in
my living room.
I will keep my high-efficiency forced air furnace (rather than
switching
to radiant). It is only 5 years old.
I will turn my attention to installing a proper HVAC system in my
husband's
workshop, which is currently being heated by portable electric
heaters.
That has cost a ton of money the last two winters.
Cindy Hamilton
Paul M. Eldridge
Hi Jeff,
>How do you like the baseboard heating? What temperature does it run at?
I like hot water baseboard heat because of the added comfort and
quietness compared to forced air. My only regret is that I replaced
my original oil-fired boiler with another oil system when I could have
gone with a small electric boiler. Here in Canada, heating oil is
currently retailing for $1.00 to $1.20 a litre (upwards of $4.50 per
gallon) and this price has been trending upward over the past few
weeks. The deal breaker for me is that it would have required
upgrading my home's 100-amp service which, in hindsight, wouldn't have
been a bad thing. That said, I have in-floor electric radiant heat in
a number of rooms and I expect to be using it a lot more in future
than I do now [natural gas is not available in my neighbourhood and
won't likely be for another ten to twenty years].
>The original central heating here was coal fired which was subsequently
>converted to natural gas. Even in the 70's with low energy costs that
>was a hog and quickly abandoned for space heating. The last few years
>I've been adding solar, with 160 SF of air collector and 120 SF of water
>collectors waiting for clear weather to finish and mount. I'd like to
>use the hot water for winter heat and near free hot water elsewise.
>Staple Up floor is ideal but I think something like baseboard would be
>much easier.
No question, passive solar, combined with active solar space heating
and DHW is an unbeatable combination, especially given your more
favourable climate. Congratulations on making an excellent investment
that is sure to pay huge dividends year after year.
> I can see why you went the extra mile for doing the walls. Seems like
>a huge project!
It was and to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I'd want to go through
anything like it again... it's messy, time consuming and disruptive
and even though I did much of the grunt work myself, fairly expensive.
But ultimately it was worth it for all the reasons previously
mentioned. I would have preferred an R-2000 home but in this case I
wanted to live in an older, established neighbourhood and within easy
walking distance of various shops and services. I knew this home
needed a lot of work to make it more energy efficient, so it wasn't a
big surprise.
> Most people don't realize the diminishing return on attic insulation.
>They think heat rises and don't think heat flows from warmer to colder
>in every direction.
Heat is sneaky that way. A simple way to demonstrate this is to grasp
a hot cup of coffee with both hands. Do the sides feel hot? You bet!
>My girlfriend apparently drove under the tornado returning to her home.
>Several collapsed brick buildings and I know people in the hardest hit
>area. Oddly nothing more than roof damage to frame structures and no
>serious injuries.
I'm glad she made it home safely and that you didn't suffer major
damage to your home. In September 2003 Hurricane Juan took direct aim
at our city and inflicted a serious amount of pain -- thankfully no
real harm to my home but one of my neighbours had a sail boat
literally tossed through his living room.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Juan
> Nice looking windows.
>
> How did you do that? I've been thinking of making some frames out of
>1" fir and applying the film to each side. Don't know if I need
>dessicant or a vent. Maybe contact adhesive to stick it to the frame.
Thanks. I attached these 3M films directly to the window frame itself
and not the outer trim which means they virtually disappear from view.
These windows are true divided light, so the plastic film rests on top
of the mullion bars; these mullion bars provide a one inch air space
between the window glass and the plastic film on either side in
addition to a supporting brace (the outside film is protected by the
wooden storm). They've been in place for about five years now and
remain remarkably clear; once a year I inspect and if need be
reinforce the sticky tape, then apply heat with a hair dryer to remove
any wrinkles that have re-emerged. There are six large windows in
total and these films save me about $200.00 a year -- a $1,000.00
return to date on a modest $50.00 investment.
> The fuel oil consumption looks exceptional for where you are. What
>temp does the heat pump cut off at?
Mine calls it a day at -10C, although some of the newer Fujitsus will
happily continue working down to -15C and I'm told even -20C. For
every kWh of electricity I feed it I get roughly 2.5 kWh of heat in
return, so it's operating costs are about 1/3 of that of my oil
boiler. It supplies roughly 80 per cent of my home's total space
heating needs, with the balance provided by the 330 to 350 litres (90
gallons) of heating oil consumed by my boiler.
> I'm all electric here since the gas company pissed me off (with
>deregulation came delivery charges that were as high in the summer as
>winter and I hate paying for nothing) But you may have prompted me to go
>back to gas for cooking. High end condos here are now advertising gas
>cooktops, although everything else is electric.
I'm heading more in that direction myself. I want to minimize -- if
not completely eliminate -- my use of oil. I'm now mulling over the
purchase of a Nyle heat pump water heater that would theoretically
knock off the 500 or so litres of fuel oil related to my DHW demand.
Since I operate a dehumidifier six months of the year and a HPWH would
perform this service equally well, it would effectively provide me
with free hot water without any increase in electrical demand (cooling
and dehumidification are a by-product of its operation). The other
six months of the year it would add to my space heating requirements
but, here again, my ductless heat pump would be providing the bulk of
this additional heat at one-third of the cost of oil. I can pick up
one of these units from the Bangor ME plant for $825.00 and install it
myself in half a day. The simple payback would be about two years
which makes it a bit of a no brainer when you think about it.
> I'd say so. I know you spent a good bit of money as well as time on
>this, but it looks like your payback will be just a few years.
>
> I don't think energy cost are heading anywhere but up for a while.
>Even though on this side of the border we are trying our best to
>collapse the economy and demand!
Regardless of any minor pullback in price due to various economic
forces, the long-term trend is up and each of us should be planning
our course of action now if we haven't already done so. If I'm wrong
and prices remain stable or drop back, the worst thing that will
happen is that it will take a few more years to recover my investment.
Even if the odds are 50-50 that prices will continue to rise, I don't
want to be on the losing side of that bet.
Cheers,
Paul
m...@privacy.net
> Radiant heat (from broad area sources) is more comfortable than what
>some people refer to as scorched air heating.
I've always wondered of radiant heater mounted on he
ceiling and pointing "downward" in a room might be
effective way to heat..... since you can turn them
off/on in only the rooms you are in?
I've seen such radiant heating in the plant/outdoor
sections of Walmart
Jeff
Well, I hope don't think we were pushing you to do any of those!
>
> I will keep my high-efficiency forced air furnace (rather than
> switching
> to radiant). It is only 5 years old.
Forced air is common and radiant can be hard to retrofit. Few people
retrofit radiant without a very good reason.
>
> I will turn my attention to installing a proper HVAC system in my
> husband's
> workshop, which is currently being heated by portable electric
> heaters.
> That has cost a ton of money the last two winters.
Adding insulation there might help if this is unfinished. There are
insulation sheets (4' x 8') made of polyisocyanurate, usually with a
foil cover. The polyiso has the advantage here of being flame retardant
as well as being a green product. Cheap to boot.
Cheers,
Jeff
>
>
> Cindy Hamilton
Paul M. Eldridge
<angelica...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Thank you all for your very kind remarks and recommendations.
>
>However, I am not going to rip up my interior walls because:
> I don't want to perform the work; I have other projects lined up.
> I don't want to live with the mess.
> I don't want to do anything that would affect the lovely cove
> ceiling in my living room.
>
>I will keep my high-efficiency forced air furnace (rather than
>switching to radiant). It is only 5 years old.
Hi Cindy,
I hear ya. As mentioned, I had plaster walls and detailed cove
mouldings in my last home and as much as I wanted to improve its
energy efficiency (and comfort), I didn't want to lose that.
>I will turn my attention to installing a proper HVAC system in my husband's
>workshop, which is currently being heated by portable electric heaters.
>That has cost a ton of money the last two winters.
Makes sense to tackle the big things first and worry about everything
else later.
Cheers,
Paul
P.O.W.
Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
> I think something like baseboard would be
> much easier.
You can remove any covers on baseboard heaters and they would be more
"Radiant".
ah, the drapes and chillun.
Paul M. Eldridge
>I've always wondered of radiant heater mounted on he
>ceiling and pointing "downward" in a room might be
>effective way to heat..... since you can turn them
>off/on in only the rooms you are in?
>
>I've seen such radiant heating in the plant/outdoor
>sections of Walmart
The big problem with radiant heat at the ceiling level, as I
understand it, is that your upper body can be comfortable (provided
you're "in the zone"), but your lower half is less likely so,
especially if your feet are tucked under a desk or table and thus out
of reach of these heaters.
I went with in-floor electric radiant heat because it effectively
covers the entire room with a warm blanket of heat -- there are no
cold spots nor physical barriers to transmission such as furniture --
and for the fact that if my feet are warm, I'm warm.
I spent the bulk of my day in my home office, so I can turn on the
heat in this one room and be quite comfortable while I let the rest of
the house remain at a much lower temperature. That's the big plus of
electric heat. In addition, at a $1.00 to $1.20 a litre, electric
heat is now a lot less expensive than oil.
Cheers,
Paul
Jeff
Hi Paul,
<snip>
>
>> Most people don't realize the diminishing return on attic insulation.
>> They think heat rises and don't think heat flows from warmer to colder
>> in every direction.
>
> Heat is sneaky that way. A simple way to demonstrate this is to grasp
> a hot cup of coffee with both hands. Do the sides feel hot? You bet!
>
>> My girlfriend apparently drove under the tornado returning to her home.
>> Several collapsed brick buildings and I know people in the hardest hit
>> area. Oddly nothing more than roof damage to frame structures and no
>> serious injuries.
>
> I'm glad she made it home safely and that you didn't suffer major
> damage to your home. In September 2003 Hurricane Juan took direct aim
> at our city and inflicted a serious amount of pain -- thankfully no
> real harm to my home but one of my neighbours had a sail boat
> literally tossed through his living room.
Yow!
>
> See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Juan
I have a friend that sometimes works winters in Thunder Bay (repairing
freighters when they can't sail) and he says that your winters are bad!
Now, I have a hard time believing it could be colder than Thunder Bay,
but I guess it certainly is windier. Don't you have something called a
flesh freeze time?
I suspect that the spectacular beauty helps keep you there.
>
>> Nice looking windows.
>>
>> How did you do that? I've been thinking of making some frames out of
>> 1" fir and applying the film to each side. Don't know if I need
>> dessicant or a vent. Maybe contact adhesive to stick it to the frame.
>
> Thanks. I attached these 3M films directly to the window frame itself
> and not the outer trim which means they virtually disappear from view.
> These windows are true divided light, so the plastic film rests on top
> of the mullion bars; these mullion bars provide a one inch air space
> between the window glass and the plastic film on either side in
> addition to a supporting brace (the outside film is protected by the
> wooden storm). They've been in place for about five years now and
> remain remarkably clear; once a year I inspect and if need be
> reinforce the sticky tape, then apply heat with a hair dryer to remove
> any wrinkles that have re-emerged. There are six large windows in
> total and these films save me about $200.00 a year -- a $1,000.00
> return to date on a modest $50.00 investment.
That's an easy way to do this and I like it. I've been going through and
fixing up and painting the walls and I may go that route after the
windows are repainted. Currently I've got the poor mans variation where
I've taped bubble wrap to the frame. You get the air space plus whatever
the bubbles yield, perhaps + R 1.5. Ideal for windows you don't need to
be transparent, like bathrooms. Bubblewrap is not cheaper than shrink
though...
I'm a little stunned at the savings, but you are cutting window losses
in half. And, it doesn't take many square feet of window to lose a lot
of heat when it is -20 outside. At R1.5, the windows were losing as much
heat as 14 times as much wall.
You've done a nice methodical job. Attacking energy loss is always
looking for the new weakest link.
>
>> The fuel oil consumption looks exceptional for where you are. What
>> temp does the heat pump cut off at?
>
> Mine calls it a day at -10C, although some of the newer Fujitsus will
> happily continue working down to -15C and I'm told even -20C.
That's pretty good. Not long ago working down to freezing was typical.
For
> every kWh of electricity I feed it I get roughly 2.5 kWh of heat in
> return, so it's operating costs are about 1/3 of that of my oil
> boiler. It supplies roughly 80 per cent of my home's total space
> heating needs, with the balance provided by the 330 to 350 litres (90
> gallons) of heating oil consumed by my boiler.
>
>> I'm all electric here since the gas company pissed me off (with
>> deregulation came delivery charges that were as high in the summer as
>> winter and I hate paying for nothing) But you may have prompted me to go
>> back to gas for cooking. High end condos here are now advertising gas
>> cooktops, although everything else is electric.
>
> I'm heading more in that direction myself. I want to minimize -- if
> not completely eliminate -- my use of oil. I'm now mulling over the
> purchase of a Nyle heat pump water heater that would theoretically
> knock off the 500 or so litres of fuel oil related to my DHW demand.
> Since I operate a dehumidifier six months of the year and a HPWH would
> perform this service equally well, it would effectively provide me
> with free hot water without any increase in electrical demand (cooling
> and dehumidification are a by-product of its operation).
I take that where this would be located is in a heated space?
The other
> six months of the year it would add to my space heating requirements
> but, here again, my ductless heat pump would be providing the bulk of
> this additional heat at one-third of the cost of oil. I can pick up
> one of these units from the Bangor ME plant for $825.00 and install it
> myself in half a day. The simple payback would be about two years
> which makes it a bit of a no brainer when you think about it.
I'd double check those figures with the actual hot water out
temperature and ambient. I suppose that at it's worse it is just a
resistance heater. The two year paypack seems extremely optimistic to
me, but I really don't know... So much energy goes towards heating water
that a little savings may really add up.
I'll be curious to see where my electric bill goes when my DHW is
solar. I'll still have to run a small pump but I hear the EER on active
solar hot water is astonishingly high. A small solar panel would be a
nice touch to get it to "free".
>
>> I'd say so. I know you spent a good bit of money as well as time on
>> this, but it looks like your payback will be just a few years.
>>
>> I don't think energy cost are heading anywhere but up for a while.
>> Even though on this side of the border we are trying our best to
>> collapse the economy and demand!
>
> Regardless of any minor pullback in price due to various economic
> forces, the long-term trend is up and each of us should be planning
> our course of action now if we haven't already done so.
True words of wisdom. I've been working on this for the last 4 years
with a new project every year. The savings weren't so noticeable at
first but now that the thermal envelope is closing it's really kicking
in. Of course, in 1920, nobody was thinking of energy efficiency and it
takes some effort to close the envelope as it must be closed on all sides.
If I'm wrong
> and prices remain stable or drop back, the worst thing that will
> happen is that it will take a few more years to recover my investment.
> Even if the odds are 50-50 that prices will continue to rise, I don't
> want to be on the losing side of that bet.
I'm with you on that bet. And it has the advantage of being good for
the planet!
Jeff
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
Paul M. Eldridge
Hi Jeff,
>I have a friend that sometimes works winters in Thunder Bay (repairing
>freighters when they can't sail) and he says that your winters are bad!
>Now, I have a hard time believing it could be colder than Thunder Bay,
>but I guess it certainly is windier. Don't you have something called a
>flesh freeze time?
>
> I suspect that the spectacular beauty helps keep you there.
I've been to Thunder Bay in January and we're not quite as bad as
that! The Atlantic Ocean is as a huge thermal buffer, so we have
really great falls, moderately cold winters, an extended and
admittedly not so nice spring and generally pleasant if somewhat
coolish summers. All in all, not too bad.
>That's an easy way to do this and I like it. I've been going through and
> fixing up and painting the walls and I may go that route after the
>windows are repainted. Currently I've got the poor mans variation where
>I've taped bubble wrap to the frame. You get the air space plus whatever
>the bubbles yield, perhaps + R 1.5. Ideal for windows you don't need to
>be transparent, like bathrooms. Bubblewrap is not cheaper than shrink
>though...
I've heard of others who have done this and spoke of the good results.
During the summer months I roll out a garden hose on my back patio to
heat laundry water and refer to this as my "poor man's solar
collector". But, hey, it works well, it didn't cost me a cent and it
helps to further reduce my fuel oil consumption and related CO2
emissions, so why not?
>I'm a little stunned at the savings, but you are cutting window losses
>in half. And, it doesn't take many square feet of window to lose a lot
>of heat when it is -20 outside. At R1.5, the windows were losing as much
>heat as 14 times as much wall.
These six windows are roughly 140 sq. ft. in total and I figure two 3M
window films effectively double their thermal performance (i.e., from
R1.8 to R3.6). There are about 7,800 HDD days locally, so the heat
loss through these windows prior to their installation would be:
1/R1.8 x 140 ft.2 x 7,800 HDD x 24 hrs/day = 14,559,998 BTUs
Cutting this in half represents a savings of some 7.3 MM BTUs/year or
243 litres of heating oil at 82% AFUE. With heating oil now selling
between $1.00 and $1.20 per litre, the potential savings would be as
high as $292.00 a year. My actual savings would be somewhat lower due
to my heat pump but, that said, any additional heat loss would have to
be addressed by my boiler because I'm operating the heat pump flat out
as it is and lack any additional spare capacity.
> You've done a nice methodical job. Attacking energy loss is always
>looking for the new weakest link.
Thanks, although I often lay in bed thinking of the things I might
have overlooked and wondering what else I can do better. Once you get
this ball rolling, it's very hard to stop.
>> I'm heading more in that direction myself. I want to minimize -- if
>> not completely eliminate -- my use of oil. I'm now mulling over the
>> purchase of a Nyle heat pump water heater that would theoretically
>> knock off the 500 or so litres of fuel oil related to my DHW demand.
>> Since I operate a dehumidifier six months of the year and a HPWH would
>> perform this service equally well, it would effectively provide me
>> with free hot water without any increase in electrical demand (cooling
>> and dehumidification are a by-product of its operation).
Re: HPWH:
> I take that where this would be located is in a heated space?
Correct. The utility room on the lower level. Great for the spring,
summer and fall when I require dehumidification on this lower level so
to prevent mould and mildew damage, but not so good during the winter
months obviously.
> I'd double check those figures with the actual hot water out
>temperature and ambient. I suppose that at it's worse it is just a
>resistance heater. The two year paypack seems extremely optimistic to
>me, but I really don't know... So much energy goes towards heating water
>that a little savings may really add up.
Well, for six months of the year it would be providing me with hot
water at no cost because I would be using the HPWH in lieu of my
dehumidifier (again, dehumidification being a "waste by-product" of
its operation). For another two to three months (i.e., late fall and
early spring) it would be consuming heat largely provided by my
ductless heat pump at a COP of 2.5 or better and at a cost about 1/3rd
that of fuel oil. For the months of December, January and February,
as the ductless heat pump is struggling to keep up with demand, we can
assume the HPWH would be stealing space heat that would have been
supplied by the boiler, in which case it's a wash.
In any event, I would expect to eliminate at least 400 litres of
heating oil per year ($400.00 to $480.00 at current prices) and
consume another $50.00 of electricity at the margin (i.e., electricity
used during the months when my dehumidifier would not normally be
required).
> I'll be curious to see where my electric bill goes when my DHW is
>solar. I'll still have to run a small pump but I hear the EER on active
>solar hot water is astonishingly high. A small solar panel would be a
>nice touch to get it to "free".
I would definitely encourage you to pursue this if possible. There
would be an upfront cost, but at that point you will have largely
isolated yourself from any future expense, less normal maintenance.
Plus you'll have the personal satisfaction of knowing you "did the
right thing". Some folks blow $40,000.00 on a SUV just to stroke
their ego and five years later have little or nothing to show for it.
Even if we were to ignore all the other "soft" benefits, you're
investing in something that will ultimately save you money and help
protect you from any future supply side risk.
>True words of wisdom. I've been working on this for the last 4 years
>with a new project every year. The savings weren't so noticeable at
>first but now that the thermal envelope is closing it's really kicking
>in. Of course, in 1920, nobody was thinking of energy efficiency and it
>takes some effort to close the envelope as it must be closed on all sides.
You can take a lot of pride in what you're doing. All of my previous
homes were extensively upgraded even though I knew I would never fully
recover my investment during the course of my ownership. That never
bothered me because I knew these improvements will help out whoever
owned it next and hopefully extend its useful life. I'd rather spend
my money on the fundamentals and the invisible stuff behind the wall
than something strictly cosmetic -- I don't like half-ass jobs.
> If I'm wrong
>> and prices remain stable or drop back, the worst thing that will
>> happen is that it will take a few more years to recover my investment.
>> Even if the odds are 50-50 that prices will continue to rise, I don't
>> want to be on the losing side of that bet.
>
> I'm with you on that bet. And it has the advantage of being good for
>the planet!
Yup. We all have choices and hopefully we make good ones that will
benefit not just ourselves but everyone.
Cheers,
Paul
Cindy Hamilton
Well, when we built it with our own four hands, we built it with 2x6
studs and had it insulated with NuWool. It's tighter and
better insulated than most houses hereabouts.
It has always been our plan to put in a proper HVAC system; we've
been dithering for two years trying to find someone with an HVAC
license who will let us do some of the work. You can't buy a furnace
around here without a license. We've finally lined up a semi-retired
HVAC guy and the system goes in next month.
Cindy Hamilton
lafe...@gmail.com
upstairs air in the summer will not shut off. Once I have The history
on my bill from last year, I will let you know. Next I will Install he
Therma Barrier on the Rafters. Any input on that from anyone.
www.radiantguard.com 03/22/08
Jeff
I found this:
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/radiant/rb_tables.html#table4
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/roofs+walls/radiant/rb_02.html
For most locales, it looks like adding insulation has the greatest
return. And, radiant returns are less with higher levels of insulation.
For where I am (Atlanta), the cooling load reduction of going from
R11 to R19 is fractionally greater than adding a radiant barrier to R11.
Adding insulation is about a 60% better deal for cooling when you figure
costs (You'll need 1500 SF or so to cover 1000 SF of attic area
depending on the roof pitch).
The radiant barrier certainly won't hurt, although your roof may be a
few degrees hotter. It's pretty cool to think that a few mills of
aluminum has the same effect as 2.5" of insulation... Of course, adding
a radiant barrier to your rafters will do little for reducing your heat
bills. Adding it on top of the insulation is a different story...
YMMV.
Jeff
Rod Speed
> YMMV.
Trouble is that radiant looses its effectiveness quite quickly as the dust builds up on it when its horizontal.