Debit card article in Reader's Digest
imascot
Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
J.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
Debit cards are extremely dangerous. Never allow any business access to
your checking account. Never let a debit card out of your sight, i.e. to
pay a restaurant bill where they take it from you.
It's amazing that anyone uses a debit card at all. You get none of the
consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
entire checking account balance.
You can get a non-Visa, non-Mastercard, plain ATM card from your bank,
but you have to request it explicitly because otherwise they'll
automatically send you the type that can be used at most places that
accept credit cards.
krw
misc.consumers, scharf...@geemail.com says...
> imascot wrote:
> > Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
> > Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
> >
> > http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
> > I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
> > people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
>
> Debit cards are extremely dangerous. Never allow any business access to
> your checking account. Never let a debit card out of your sight, i.e. to
> pay a restaurant bill where they take it from you.
If you're going to be that paranoid, don't have a checking account.
Paying by check is no better than debit transaction.
> It's amazing that anyone uses a debit card at all. You get none of the
> consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
> rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
> entire checking account balance.
No, you really don't. You may be in for a hassle, but it's not
lost. Again, paying by check is no better, if you're that
paranoid.
> You can get a non-Visa, non-Mastercard, plain ATM card from your bank,
> but you have to request it explicitly because otherwise they'll
> automatically send you the type that can be used at most places that
> accept credit cards.
Yes, perhaps some banks still issue ATM cards, but they're almost
useless. Take off the tin foil hat and join the rest of us.
--
Keith
Melissa
CC. We don't use it online, but use it almost exclusively for all local
purchases. We've never had a problem. I do monitor our bank account almost
daily online.
Melissa
"imascot" <im...@mycomputer.now> wrote in message
news:sUZ9j.18$GK...@newsfe09.lga...
George Grapman
My credit union offers the same protection for my debit card as my
credit card. I recently won a dispute over a small bill.
In addition should I exceed the balance they will first transfer
funds from my checking account and then my money market account before
declining the purchase,bouncing a check or imposing an overdraft charge.
They charge nothing for this.
George Grapman
> In article <476873c2$0$84208$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
> misc.consumers, scharf...@geemail.com says...
>> imascot wrote:
>>> Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
>>> Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
>>>
>>> http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
>>> I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
>>> people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
>> Debit cards are extremely dangerous. Never allow any business access to
>> your checking account. Never let a debit card out of your sight, i.e. to
>> pay a restaurant bill where they take it from you.
>
> If you're going to be that paranoid, don't have a checking account.
> Paying by check is no better than debit transaction.
>
>> It's amazing that anyone uses a debit card at all. You get none of the
>> consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
>> rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
>> entire checking account balance.
>
> No, you really don't. You may be in for a hassle, but it's not
> lost. Again, paying by check is no better, if you're that
> paranoid.
Actually it is worse as more people see your account details.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> In article <476873c2$0$84208$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
> misc.consumers, scharf...@geemail.com says...
>> imascot wrote:
>>> Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
>>> Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
>>>
>>> http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
>>> I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
>>> people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
>> Debit cards are extremely dangerous. Never allow any business access to
>> your checking account. Never let a debit card out of your sight, i.e. to
>> pay a restaurant bill where they take it from you.
>
> If you're going to be that paranoid, don't have a checking account.
> Paying by check is no better than debit transaction.
You need to be very careful about who you send checks to. It's better to
pay bills online with ETF.
>> It's amazing that anyone uses a debit card at all. You get none of the
>> consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
>> rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
>> entire checking account balance.
>
> No, you really don't. You may be in for a hassle, but it's not
> lost. Again, paying by check is no better, if you're that
> paranoid.
It's a _huge_ hassle to get your money back, meanwhile you have checks
bouncing and you're running up overdraft fees.
>> You can get a non-Visa, non-Mastercard, plain ATM card from your bank,
>> but you have to request it explicitly because otherwise they'll
>> automatically send you the type that can be used at most places that
>> accept credit cards.
>
> Yes, perhaps some banks still issue ATM cards, but they're almost
> useless. Take off the tin foil hat and join the rest of us.
They're extremely useful. You can get cash from virtually any ATM in the
world. You can use them at merchants that can accept PIN based
transactions. What you can't do, and no one else that finds your card
can do, is to use it like a credit card.
George Grapman
Good point. Reminds me, when was the last time someone bothered to
match your signature to a debit/credit card . My favorite is the
standard restaurant procedure:
Server presents check..
You place card on table.
Server runs card and returns it with invoice.
You put card away,add tip,sign invoice and leave.
In the early days of ATMs I worked with a man who had credit cards
but refused to get an ATM card because he was afraid of cards. As a joke
I offered to give him my ATM card for an hour in exchange for his credit
card and see who could do the most damage.
krw
sfge...@paccbell.net says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <476873c2$0$84208$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
> > misc.consumers, scharf...@geemail.com says...
> >> imascot wrote:
> >>> Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
> >>> Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
> >>> I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
> >>> people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
> >> Debit cards are extremely dangerous. Never allow any business access to
> >> your checking account. Never let a debit card out of your sight, i.e. to
> >> pay a restaurant bill where they take it from you.
> >
> > If you're going to be that paranoid, don't have a checking account.
> > Paying by check is no better than debit transaction.
> >
> >> It's amazing that anyone uses a debit card at all. You get none of the
> >> consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
> >> rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
> >> entire checking account balance.
> >
> > No, you really don't. You may be in for a hassle, but it's not
> > lost. Again, paying by check is no better, if you're that
> > paranoid.
>
> Actually it is worse as more people see your account details.
I agree, but that little fact would burst the pinhead OP's head.
<snip>
--
Keith
George Grapman
refuses to pay for anything via electronic checking yet regularly uses
paper checks for retail purchases.
I know people who take their pay checks to their employers bank
(often incurring a fee) because they do no want anyone in the company to
have their account number.
rick++
All the their debit cards I've been given have the same
protections as their credit card according the bank policy.
They are combo ATM-Debit Cards, which may be the reason.
rick++
is a special "gateway account", i.e. one exposed to
the outside world, with very limited funding.
Its tied to checks, bill pay, and debit card.
In general it always has less than $1000,
except for the moment bills are paid.
The deposit and billpays are scheduled to
be simulataneous so no large amount exists
for long.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
It's not the bank policy, it's the protections extended by the federal
government that you lose on debit cards, with or without the Visa or
Mastercard logo.
Rick Blaine
>All the their debit cards I've been given have the same
>protections as their credit card according the bank policy.
There's a difference between protection by bank policy and and protection by
federal law.
>They are combo ATM-Debit Cards, which may be the reason.
There are three types of ATM or Debit cards these days:
- The classic bank ATM card which works at local ATMs. It may work at local
online retailers, if they all belong to a local or regional ATM network. These
are almost impossible to find, but banks can issue them. There's no advantage to
using one though.
- An online only VisaMC branded ATM card. These are hard to find but most banks
will issue them if pressed. Visa's version is called Electron and MC's version
is called Maestro. These work in your local ATM, any online store that takes
VisaMC and most ATMs belonging to other banks. They work worldwide if so enabled
by your bank. If you want to use a debit card, they are the safest to use as
they require realtime entry of a PIN.
They do NOT work as a signature debit card, also known as an offline debit card.
- Online/Offline Debit Cards. These have the Visa/MC logo on them, work online
as described above, but can also look like a credit card to a merchant. The
difference is that as sson as the "credit" transaction is processed, the money
gets extracted from your account.
The fees for online use are much less than credit transactions, so stores like
Target and Walmart have their terminals set up to assume you want an online
debit transaction and force you to press "credit".
Banks love credit and credit like debit transactions, so they encourage offline
and online use as credit cards. Why would you want tto process a debit card as a
credit transaction? Your bank may offer miles or rebates as a cut of the deal.
--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars
goa...@fractious.net
[the ever popular credit versus debit card]
> Our bank offers the same protection with our Debit card that they do with a
> CC. We don't use it online, but use it almost exclusively for all local
> purchases. We've never had a problem. I do monitor our bank account almost
> daily online.
The overall protection (ie. the amount of money you are
liable for if there is fraud) is the same. The hassle
of dealing with it is different. In the one case,
you (a) have to ask for your money back and wait for it
and (b) may be bouncing checks or unable to get at
your own cash in the meantime while they decide whether
or not you've been defrauded. In the other case, you
simply don't pay the bill.
In the end both are made (mostly, and generally) whole.
It's the part between the fraud and resolution which
makes the big difference.
--
sfgeorge
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:40:25 -0800, George Grapman
>
> <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
> > I know people who take their pay checks to their employers bank
> >(often incurring a fee) because they do no want anyone in the company to
> >have their account number.
>
Positive,. The two I am thinking of were born here. One refuses to
get an answering machine because he thinks it would let a thief know
that he was not home. I tried to explain that no answer is a stringer
sign of that than a machine where one might be screening calls but it
did not register.
>
> Given that your employer has your social security number and all sorts
> of other personal information about you, pulling your credit report
> and finding out ALL of your account numbers is trivial. Surely
> everyone knows this? Why would anyone bother to try to hide their
> checking account number from their employer?
sfgeorge
I do that for purchases from companies that I do not have a history
with as well as my off shore bookie. I move what ever is needed for
the purchase into that account. It normally has less than $10 so I am
not worried about hacking.
By the way, while US law now prohibits use of credit/debit cards for
sports books (legal horse racing accounts are exempt) many places now
take electronic checks or run the credit/debit cards through a third
party with no fees to the customer.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> In the early days of ATMs I worked with a man who had credit cards but
> refused to get an ATM card because he was afraid of cards. As a joke I
> offered to give him my ATM card for an hour in exchange for his credit
> card and see who could do the most damage.
Presumably without the PIN! The problem is the Mastercard or Visa logo
debit cards that can be used as a credit card without a PIN (as well as
an ATM card with a PIN).
If you lose your credit card, or someone gets your number, it's a minor
issue, as you are only responsible for a maximum of $50, and most
issuers waive even that, plus there is no real money taken from any
account. Lose your debit card, and even if the bank eventually restores
your funds, you're in for a tremendous amount of hassle.
What one guy wrote here about having a "gateway" account is a very good
idea if you use debit cards.
It's very strange that anyone would even want to use Mastercard or Visa
logoed debit card in place of a credit card, or even use a plain ATM
card when the store accepts credit cards. You get none of the
consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
entire checking account balance.
I'm glad that a publication like Reader's Digest ran that article, as I
think that a lot of older citizens that eschew credit cards with the
"don't buy anything on credit" mentality will now understand the risks.
Especially good is the section that explains the credit card protections
built into the Fair Credit Billing Act.
The article ends with a bizarre statement by one of the people that was
scammed, with him saying about debit cards "I just can't give up the
convenience." Uh, has he ever found a restaurant that takes debit cards
but not credit cards?
They should have also warned people to be very careful about paying by
check to unknown individuals and businesses, as the draining of checking
accounts by scammers that obtain your account and routing number is also
a major problem. With ETF between the bank and most of your creditors,
you're a lot safer.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
Paying by check is worse than paying by debit card to be sure, but you
have to look at the big picture. Basically what you want to control is
_any_ access to your checking account.
Here are some more tips to protect yourself:
1. Get rid of any MasterCard or Visa linked debit card, and use a
regular ATM card that always requires a PIN. Far from being "useless" as
one clueless poster wrote, they in fact can be used at almost any ATM
worldwide, and can be used at most businesses that accept debit cards,
but a PIN will always be required. Also use a bank that rebates ATM fees
from other bank's, and private ATMs.
2. Use a credit card whenever possible to make purchases and pay bills.
You gain all the federal protections of the Fair Credit Billing Act that
you don't have when you use a debit card. You also gain other advantages
such as easier returns without receipts (at many stores), easier record
keeping, and credit card rewards programs. I.e. when you buy gasoline,
should you use an ATM card, or use an Amex card that gives a 5% rebate?.
On a $50 fill-up, that's $2.50 I have "saved."
3. For automatic payment of bills, always link them to a credit card
account rather than directly to your checking account. You want to avoid
giving businesses direct access to your checking account.
4. For payments to businesses that don't accept credit cards i.e.
mortgages, some utilities, etc., "push" payment to them electronically,
don't let them "pull" from your account. If the amount is the same each
month, you can set it up to automatically push payments to them.
5. Be careful about giving paper checks to individuals and businesss
that you are not familiar with. A paper check gives them all the
information they need to drain your checking account.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
Yes, a bank or credit union can choose to essentially duplicate the
provisions of the Fair Credit Billing Act, but they are not required to
do so.
So if someone is able to obtain your account numbers or debit card, your
credit union will first drain your checking account, then drain your
money market account, and won't charge you for doing so. Such a deal.
George Grapman
The one time I had a dispute on my debit card the amount was back in
my account the next day.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> The one time I had a dispute on my debit card the amount was back in my
> account the next day.
Because you noticed it in time. That's another problem, a lot of people,
probably most people, don't look at their bank accounts on a daily
basis. With a credit card statement, you get a detailed list of all
charges once a month. Then you have several weeks to dispute any charge,
all without any money being removed from your account.
As the RD article pointed out, "Federal law generally limits your
liability to no more than $50 if your debit card is stolen or copied, as
long as you report the crime within two days of receiving your
statement. However, if you don't notice the suspicious activity till
weeks later, you may be liable for up to $500 or more." _Two Days_.
Geez, I rarely open my statements and examine them immediately upon
receipt. Generally they are opened when everything arrives and I do all
the bill payments in one banking session.
It was an excellent RD article, especially the advice regarding big
ticket items, where you really need the federal protections extended to
credit card purchases, "opt for credit for all expensive items, like
furniture."
George Grapman
> George Grapman wrote:
>
>> The one time I had a dispute on my debit card the amount was back in
>> my account the next day.
>
> Because you noticed it in time. That's another problem, a lot of people,
> probably most people, don't look at their bank accounts on a daily
> basis. With a credit card statement, you get a detailed list of all
> charges once a month. Then you have several weeks to dispute any charge,
> all without any money being removed from your account.
Correct. I check mine twice a day. Takes about 30 seconds each time.
It also helps me keep track of recurring charges which may vary slightly
from month to month.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> "rick++" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> All the their debit cards I've been given have the same
>> protections as their credit card according the bank policy.
>
> There's a difference between protection by bank policy and and protection by
> federal law.
>
>> They are combo ATM-Debit Cards, which may be the reason.
>
>
> There are three types of ATM or Debit cards these days:
>
> - The classic bank ATM card which works at local ATMs. It may work at local
> online retailers, if they all belong to a local or regional ATM network. These
> are almost impossible to find, but banks can issue them. There's no advantage to
> using one though.
Most banks issue them upon request. They are easy to find. However
you're correct that a Maestro or Electron card is just as safe, as both
require a PIN.
> - An online only VisaMC branded ATM card. These are hard to find but most banks
> will issue them if pressed. Visa's version is called Electron and MC's version
> is called Maestro. These work in your local ATM, any online store that takes
> VisaMC and most ATMs belonging to other banks. They work worldwide if so enabled
> by your bank. If you want to use a debit card, they are the safest to use as
> they require realtime entry of a PIN.
Again, these are very easy to find. They are issued upon request. The
problem is that you're equating what the bank does by default (sending a
Visa/MC Logo card) with "hard to find" when in fact they are not hard
to find at all.
> - Online/Offline Debit Cards. These have the Visa/MC logo on them, work online
> as described above, but can also look like a credit card to a merchant. The
> difference is that as sson as the "credit" transaction is processed, the money
> gets extracted from your account.
These are the ones that should be avoided. You lose all the federal
protections of the Fair Credit Billing Act, you are at great risk if the
card is lost or stolen, and of course there is no advantage to you to
use one versus a credit card.
> Banks love credit and credit like debit transactions, so they encourage offline
> and online use as credit cards. Why would you want tto process a debit card as a
> credit transaction? Your bank may offer miles or rebates as a cut of the deal.
The real question is why anyone would ever want to use a MC/Visa debit
card rather than a credit card. The advantages of using a credit card
are overwhelming. The banks, as well as Mastercard and Visa really want
you to use the MC/Visa debit card rather than a credit card. That should
be enough to convince anyone that it's better to use a credit card!
The banks _hate_ the protection provisions of the Fair Credit Billing
act. They spend a lot of money resolving disputes between the consumer
and the merchant, and complicating the process is that for full
protection everything has to be done in writing. I spend months on one
dispute with a merchant in San Francisco that double billed me, and it
must have cost the bank far more than the $100 value of the dispute.
I'd love to know any reason that someone would use a MC/Visa logo debit
card rather than an actual credit card, because I can't think of any
good reasons.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> "Melissa" <nos...@neo.rr.com> writes:
>
> [the ever popular credit versus debit card]
>
>> Our bank offers the same protection with our Debit card that they do with a
>> CC. We don't use it online, but use it almost exclusively for all local
>> purchases. We've never had a problem. I do monitor our bank account almost
>> daily online.
>
> The overall protection (ie. the amount of money you are
> liable for if there is fraud) is the same.
Not really. The band can choose to make it the same, but they aren't
required to. As the RD article pointed out, you have two days from
receiving your bank statement to dispute any debits, then your liability
goes way up.
> The hassle
> of dealing with it is different. In the one case,
> you (a) have to ask for your money back and wait for it
> and (b) may be bouncing checks or unable to get at
> your own cash in the meantime while they decide whether
> or not you've been defrauded. In the other case, you
> simply don't pay the bill.
True.
> In the end both are made (mostly, and generally) whole.
> It's the part between the fraud and resolution which
> makes the big difference.
That's true if the bank is, on it's own, duplicating the provisions of
federal law. It goes deeper than that though. The credit card issuer
simply takes the money back from the merchant while the dispute is being
resolved, while the debit card issuer cannot do that. The debit card
issuer has much more of an incentive to decide in favor of the merchant,
who already has the money.
George Grapman
card item the money was back in my account the next day.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> As I noted in a previous post the one time that I disputed a debit
> card item the money was back in my account the next day.
Yes, and that's an example of one. You may have an exceptionally good
credit union. The point is that the credit union _chose_ to provide that
level of service, but there was no law compelling it to act the way it did.
Rick Blaine
>Again, these are very easy to find. They are issued upon request. The
>problem is that you're equating what the bank does by default (sending a
> Visa/MC Logo card) with "hard to find" when in fact they are not hard
>to find at all.
>
By hard to find, I mean the bank does not advertise it, make it easy to get and
in some cases, will refuse to issue this type of debit card. The reason is easy
to understand: Issuing banks collect an average 3% on credit or signature debit
transactions and an average of .25 on online debit transactions. They aren't
going to want to make it easy for you to obtain an online only card.
>> - Online/Offline Debit Cards. These have the Visa/MC logo on them, work online
>> as described above, but can also look like a credit card to a merchant. The
>> difference is that as soon as the "credit" transaction is processed, the money
>> gets extracted from your account.
>
>These are the ones that should be avoided. You lose all the federal
>protections of the Fair Credit Billing Act, you are at great risk if the
>card is lost or stolen, and of course there is no advantage to you to
>use one versus a credit card.
>
Agreed 100%.
>
>The real question is why anyone would ever want to use a MC/Visa debit
>card rather than a credit card. The advantages of using a credit card
>are overwhelming. The banks, as well as Mastercard and Visa really want
>you to use the MC/Visa debit card rather than a credit card. That should
>be enough to convince anyone that it's better to use a credit card!
Minor clarification: The real question is why anyone would want to use a MC/Visa
signature (offline) debit card for the reasons you cited. Some people have valid
reasons for using online (PIN required) debit. That's no different and much
safer than carrying cash. While there's nothing wrong with using an MC/Visa card
in the online mode (ie with a PIN), the fact that the card could be used by a
thief without a PIN makes it a poor choice to carry.
>
>The banks _hate_ the protection provisions of the Fair Credit Billing
>act. They spend a lot of money resolving disputes between the consumer
>and the merchant, and complicating the process is that for full
>protection everything has to be done in writing. I spend months on one
>dispute with a merchant in San Francisco that double billed me, and it
>must have cost the bank far more than the $100 value of the dispute.
>
Yes, the more enlightened banks look at the amount of the dispute and choose to
eat the difference themself when the cost of resolving it exceeds the value of
the transaction.
>I'd love to know any reason that someone would use a MC/Visa logo debit
>card rather than an actual credit card, because I can't think of any
>good reasons.
Agreed.
Larry Bud
> imascot wrote:
> > Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
> > Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
>
> >http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
> > I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
> > people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
>
> your checking account. Never let a debit card out of your sight, i.e. to
> pay a restaurant bill where they take it from you.
>
> consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
> rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
> entire checking account balance.
No you don't. You have the same fraud protection as a credit card.
George Grapman
That level of service is why I bank with them. I rarely use a teller
but when I do and the line has more than a few people a branch manager
will handle transactions. In addition I can use ATMs at almost any 7-11
without incurring charges.
I left Wells-Fargo because each branch seems to have one employee
whose sole job is to walk around i circles behind the counter and smile
at the growing line.
Rick Blaine
>No you don't. You have the same fraud protection as a credit card.
_No, they do not._
The federal Truth in Lending Act (TILA) (15 U.S.C. §§ 1601-1667f, as amended),
requires creditors to disclose information about interest rates and other terms
of credit.
The Fair Credit Billing Act (FCBA) (15 U.S.C. 1666-1666j), part of TILA,
protects you against billing mistakes and unauthorized charges.
Neither of these laws appliy to debit transactions. Furthermore, debit cards
provide following "minuses" (from PrivacyRights.org):
# Debit cards don't carry the same legal protection as credit cards. Federal law
limits your liability on a debit card to $50, but only if you notify your
financial institution within two business days of discovery of the theft. If you
wait longer than 60 days after your bank statement was mailed, you could lose
all the money in your checking account, and even more! We at the PRC have been
contacted by many identity theft victims who have experienced debit card fraud.
While in most cases their banks eventually replenished the stolen funds from
their checking accounts, many were without access for several weeks while the
bank conducted its investigation. In the meantime, they were caught short,
unable to pay their bills.
# Consumer protections for debit cards are not as strong as those for credit
cards. Because funds are deducted from your account quickly, you do not have the
option to stop payment in a dispute.
Debit and ATM card transactions are included in the broader category of EFT or
electronic funds transfers. Use of these cards and your potential loss are
governed by the Electronic Funds Transfer Act (EFT Act) (15 U.S.C. §§
1693-1693r)
# The big car-rental firms, including Hertz and Avis, have stopped letting
people rent cars using debit cards. For years, these companies have used
possession of a credit card as a way of weeding out potentially risky renters.
But with banks issuing debit cards to nearly anyone with a bank account, the
car-rental outfits have tightened their rules.
# Another debit card danger arises from merchant “blocking.” Blocking occurs
when a merchant routinely withholds an amount on a debit card until the
transaction is fully processed. This typically occurs at hotels, gas stations,
and those rental car companies that still accept debit cards. When you use a
debit card, the blocked amount can cause your bank account to be overdrawn.
# You might be charged for “potential” overdrafts. With off-line
(signature-based) transactions, the debit is processed through the credit card
payments system, which means the money takes a few days to be deducted from your
account However, at least one major bank charges an overdraft (bounced check)
fee when pending debit card transactions exceed your available balance, even
though your balance is sufficient to cover the debit when it is finally
processed through the system.
# Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to run up a huge debt with a debit
card. Some banks process debit card charges despite insufficient account
balances, creating overdrafts. This can catch cardholders by surprise and
undermine their sense of fiscal security.
# Some debit card issuers allow only a fixed number of uses each month. After
that, they charge fees. Some issuers enforce maximum daily spending limits,
which can create a problem while shopping for large-ticket items.
# In addition, consumers who use debit cards to the exclusion of credit cards
may be missing an opportunity to establish their creditworthiness. Responsible
use of credit cards—unlike debit cards—helps build good credit scores. A good
credit score can reduce the rates that you pay on car loans, mortgages, and
insurance premiums.
Vic Smith
<sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>SMS ???• ? wrote:
>> George Grapman wrote:
>>
>>> The one time I had a dispute on my debit card the amount was back in
>>> my account the next day.
>>
>> Because you noticed it in time. That's another problem, a lot of people,
>> probably most people, don't look at their bank accounts on a daily
>> basis. With a credit card statement, you get a detailed list of all
>> charges once a month. Then you have several weeks to dispute any charge,
>> all without any money being removed from your account.
>
>
> Correct. I check mine twice a day. Takes about 30 seconds each time.
>It also helps me keep track of recurring charges which may vary slightly
>from month to month.
>>
Right there is a huge disadvantage of debit cards.
You have to check your account balance twice a day!
What a hassle! That card has you by the balls.
--Vic
Bill
SMS ???• ? wrote:
>
> I'd love to know any reason that someone would use a MC/Visa logo debit
> card rather than an actual credit card, because I can't think of any
> good reasons.
There are people who have posted here in the past who are
convinced that credit cards are evil. I still don't understand
it but apparently they were burned (or heard of someone who has)
and block out all the benefits of using credit cards so they can
focus on the perceived bad stuff. Of course, if you have trouble
paying your credit card bill in full each month (or worse, don't
understand the reason to do so), then you should not be using
them.
BTW in addition to all that has been mentioned, one big reason
for using a credit card for electronics purchases (or almost
anything with a warranty) is the up to an extra year of warranty
you get for using it. That should be reason enough. And of
course you have the rebates, which lets you make money for using
the card.
Bill
Vic Smith
<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>Rick Blaine wrote:
>> "rick++" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> - An online only VisaMC branded ATM card. These are hard to find but most banks
>> will issue them if pressed. Visa's version is called Electron and MC's version
>> is called Maestro. These work in your local ATM, any online store that takes
>> VisaMC and most ATMs belonging to other banks. They work worldwide if so enabled
>> by your bank. If you want to use a debit card, they are the safest to use as
>> they require realtime entry of a PIN.
>
>Again, these are very easy to find. They are issued upon request. The
>problem is that you're equating what the bank does by default (sending a
> Visa/MC Logo card) with "hard to find" when in fact they are not hard
>to find at all.
>
When BankOne was taken over by Chase, Chase sent me a Visa logoed
debit card. I cut it up, called Chase , and asked for PIN verified
ATM card. It was here in 3 days.
I agree with you. The only advantage to a debit card is not paying a
once-a-month bill as you do with a CC.
That is nulled by CC auto bill pay if you wish.
Disadvantages to a debit card are numerous.
No carry.
Cash back? (not sure)
Dispute/Fraud process is at bank discretion, not mandated.
Unprotected access to you bank account should the card be lost or
stolen.
Possibility of NSF charges due to fraud.
Why do people use them? Either they can't control their credit buying
or they are sheep. Or both.
--Vic
George Grapman
seconds each time that I do it.
George Grapman
something with the card and get cash back with no charge. Beats having
to drive around looking for an ATM.
ra...@vt.edu
> > - Online/Offline Debit Cards. These have the Visa/MC logo on them, work online
> > as described above, but can also look like a credit card to a merchant. The
> > difference is that as sson as the "credit" transaction is processed, the money
> > gets extracted from your account.
> These are the ones that should be avoided. You lose all the federal
> protections of the Fair Credit Billing Act, you are at great risk if the
> card is lost or stolen, and of course there is no advantage to you to
> use one versus a credit card.
Except, of course, that both Visa and Mastercard provide zero liability
fraud protection on their branded debit cards. In other words, the
big credit card companies are providing more protection than required
by law. Yes, they could change that, but they have not in many years.
In fact, the only time the zero liability doesn't apply with Mastercard
is if you use the PIN with your debit card. Signature transactions
are protected. This is not a local bank decision, it's Visa and Mastercard
policies so it's true for *any* bank's debit card that has a Visa or MC logo.
Read the info at www.visa.com and mastercard.com for details.
Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.
Vic Smith
You really don't do that, do you?
I can't imagine being forced to look at my bank account twice a day
to make sure no fraud has occurred.
--Vic
Vic Smith
Never thought of that one. I have plenty of ATM's handy, but hardly
ever use cash anyway.
--Vic
George Grapman
When I travel that feature come in handy. On a recent vacation I
needed cash for things ranging from newspapers to public transit to
street food.
George Grapman
Rod Speed
> SMS ???. ? wrote:
>> George Grapman wrote:
>>
>>> As I noted in a previous post the one time that I disputed a debit
>>> card item the money was back in my account the next day.
>>
>> Yes, and that's an example of one. You may have an exceptionally good
>> credit union. The point is that the credit union _chose_ to provide
>> that level of service, but there was no law compelling it to act the
>> way it did.
> That level of service is why I bank with them.
That isnt as useful when making general statements
about which type of card is safer to use tho.
Rod Speed
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:02:11 GMT, George Grapman
> <sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Vic Smith wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 08:39:04 -0800, George Grapman
>>> <sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> George Grapman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The one time I had a dispute on my debit card the amount was
>>>>>> back in my account the next day.
>>>>> Because you noticed it in time. That's another problem, a lot of
>>>>> people, probably most people, don't look at their bank accounts
>>>>> on a daily basis. With a credit card statement, you get a
>>>>> detailed list of all charges once a month. Then you have several
>>>>> weeks to dispute any charge, all without any money being removed
>>>>> from your account.
>>>>
>>>> Correct. I check mine twice a day. Takes about 30 seconds each
>>>> time. It also helps me keep track of recurring charges which may
>>>> vary slightly from month to month.
>>> Right there is a huge disadvantage of debit cards.
>>> You have to check your account balance twice a day!
>>> What a hassle! That card has you by the balls.
>>>
>>> --Vic
>> Yes, such a hassle that, as I already noted, it takes me all of 30
>> seconds each time that I do it.
>
> You really don't do that, do you?
> I can't imagine being forced to look at my bank account twice a day
> to make sure no fraud has occurred.
Mine sends an email notification of each transaction, so you dont have to check.
And it can be an SMS notification if you prefer too.
Rod Speed
One obvious reason is that you dont have to fart around paying the card off in full every month.
Vic Smith
That can be done via automatic fund transfer from your bank account.
I don't do that, since that's when I look over the CC registry for any
suspicious charge. If there is a charge I want to dispute, and there
have been a few over the years, I call the CC customer service, and
don't send that piece in my payment.
But it's just another monthly online payment with Quicken. Basically
click on the payee, plug in the amount, and hit send.
--Vic
timeOday
> As the RD article pointed out, you have two days from
> receiving your bank statement to dispute any debits, then your liability
> goes way up.
No, you have 2 business days from when you notice the card is gone, or
60 days from receiving a statement, to report it.
LDC
<sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>imascot wrote:
>> Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
>> Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
>>
>> http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
>> I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
>> people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
>>
>> J.
>
> My credit union offers the same protection for my debit card as my
>credit card. I recently won a dispute over a small bill.
> In addition should I exceed the balance they will first transfer
>funds from my checking account and then my money market account before
>declining the purchase,bouncing a check or imposing an overdraft charge.
>They charge nothing for this.
I was surprised the RD article suggested this. You have overdraft
protection via linked accounts. All this does is allow fraudulent
use of the debit card the ability to drain two or three accounts
instead of just one. I guess I don't see the advantage of that.
Once again, as another poster so clearly stated, you may have the
same protection with debit and credit cards in the end. It is what
happens to your money while the problem is being resolved that is
dramatically different.
For those who "have never had a problem," remember it only takes
once. Fraud is available with any type of transaction, including
cash. A wise consumer takes steps to limit exposure to risk.
Rod Speed
>>> I'd love to know any reason that someone would use a MC/Visa logo debit card
>>> rather than an actual credit card, because I can't think of any good reasons.
>> One obvious reason is that you dont have to fart
>> around paying the card off in full every month.
> That can be done via automatic fund transfer from your bank account.
I'd rather not do that, because if the card gets ripped off, the last
thing I want is for the effect of that to be automatically transferred
to the bank account if I happen to be out of town when the rippoff
occurs etc, and that is when its much more likely to happen.
I want to be able to tell the card issuer that the fraudulent use of the card
is their problem, not mine, and just use one of the backup cards while the
card issuer gets its act into gear on the fraudulent use of the card.
> I don't do that, since that's when I look over the CC registry for
> any suspicious charge. If there is a charge I want to dispute,
> and there have been a few over the years, I call the CC
> customer service, and don't send that piece in my payment.
And so there are some advantages in not always using the credit card, like I said.
The other obvious advantage is that the credit card usually has the
highest merchant fees and those arent always covered by the merchant.
> But it's just another monthly online payment with Quicken.
> Basically click on the payee, plug in the amount, and hit send.
Sure, but not everyone automates their card use like that. Those
may have some real advantages in using a debit card that has
the same guarantees from the card issuer as they get with a
credit card, particularly not having to do anything monthly at all.
Rod Speed
And the best way to do that is what rick calls a gateway account that cant
be looted for more than you will just yawn about while the problem is resolved.
If you have that because its the best protection, even if the bank chooses to
try to play silly buggers about what the law requires for a while, and you have
enough of a clue to have a debit card with the same protection as a credit
card has, there isnt really any point in using the credit card for most transactions,
and its best to just use the credit card for backup and for when a particular
operation like say car rental will only accept a credit card and then you only
have to bother to do the monthly pay in full operation very occassionally
when you ended up needing to use the credit card for whatever reason.
George Grapman
> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 19:34:18 -0800, George Grapman
> <sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>> imascot wrote:
>>> Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
>>> Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
>>>
>>> http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
>>> I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
>>> people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
>>>
>>> J.
>> My credit union offers the same protection for my debit card as my
>> credit card. I recently won a dispute over a small bill.
>> In addition should I exceed the balance they will first transfer
>> funds from my checking account and then my money market account before
>> declining the purchase,bouncing a check or imposing an overdraft charge.
>> They charge nothing for this.
>
> I was surprised the RD article suggested this. You have overdraft
> protection via linked accounts. All this does is allow fraudulent
> use of the debit card the ability to drain two or three accounts
> instead of just one. I guess I don't see the advantage of that.
>
> Once again, as another poster so clearly stated, you may have the
> same protection with debit and credit cards in the end. It is what
> happens to your money while the problem is being resolved that is
> dramatically different.
As I have already noted the one time I disputed a debit card charge
the funds were back in my account the next day. I can not address the
policies of other financial institutions.
Vic Smith
<rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Vic Smith <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote
>
>> But it's just another monthly online payment with Quicken.
>> Basically click on the payee, plug in the amount, and hit send.
>
>Sure, but not everyone automates their card use like that. Those
>may have some real advantages in using a debit card that has
>the same guarantees from the card issuer as they get with a
>credit card, particularly not having to do anything monthly at all.
>
True enough, and I agree.
--Vic
LDC
wrote:
>There are three types of ATM or Debit cards these days:
>
>- The classic bank ATM card which works at local ATMs. It may work at local
>online retailers, if they all belong to a local or regional ATM network. These
>are almost impossible to find, but banks can issue them. There's no advantage to
>using one though.
Unless, of course, you want to use it in the classic manner:
extracting cash from an ATM.
George Grapman
On a related note debit cards have really cut into the sales of
travelers checks. I can not remember the last time I used them.
George Grapman
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 07:38:16 -0800 (PST), sfgeorge
> <sfge...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 19, 7:10 am, Scott in SoCal <scottenazt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:40:25 -0800, George Grapman
>>>
>>> <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>>>> I know people who take their pay checks to their employers bank
>>>> (often incurring a fee) because they do no want anyone in the company to
>>>> have their account number.
>>> Are you sure they are not just illegal aliens without a bank account?
>> Positive,. The two I am thinking of were born here. One refuses to
>> get an answering machine because he thinks it would let a thief know
>> that he was not home. I tried to explain that no answer is a stringer
>> sign of that than a machine where one might be screening calls but it
>> did not register.
>
> So these people are just dumb. :)
Some otherwise smart people can be dumb about one or two things.
George Grapman
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 09:03:23 -0800, George Grapman
> <sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>> As I noted in a previous post the one time that I disputed a debit
>> card item the money was back in my account the next day.
>
> You were lucky. Some people, such as the two profiled in the MSNBC
> Identity Theft show I saw the other day, waited weeks or months to get
> their money back. One guy is still fighting with his bank after 8
> months. They have sent collection agents after him, and he is
> basically blacklisted in the banking industry (e.g. can't open another
> bank account) until he can clear things up.
Before opening my account I checked the rules on how my credit union
dealt with those issues.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
>> problem is that you're equating what the bank does by default (sending a
>> Visa/MC Logo card) with "hard to find" when in fact they are not hard
>> to find at all.
>>
>
> in some cases, will refuse to issue this type of debit card.
Well I only have three examples from the banks I use, but none of them
refused to issue it, nor did they make it hard to get. You just had to
ask them for it. But as you state, the reason they don't push these
cards out is because they're less profitable for the bank, and less
risky for the account holder.
It's almost like buying insurance--whatever they don't want to sell you
is what you really want to buy.
>> These are the ones that should be avoided. You lose all the federal
>> protections of the Fair Credit Billing Act, you are at great risk if the
>> card is lost or stolen, and of course there is no advantage to you to
>> use one versus a credit card.
>>
>
> Agreed 100%.
A good rule of thumb when dealing with banks, insurance companies, and
car dealers is that whatever they do want to sell you is what you don't
want.
>> The real question is why anyone would ever want to use a MC/Visa debit
>> card rather than a credit card. The advantages of using a credit card
>> are overwhelming. The banks, as well as Mastercard and Visa really want
>> you to use the MC/Visa debit card rather than a credit card. That should
>> be enough to convince anyone that it's better to use a credit card!
>
> Minor clarification: The real question is why anyone would want to use a MC/Visa
> signature (offline) debit card for the reasons you cited. Some people have valid
> reasons for using online (PIN required) debit. That's no different and much
> safer than carrying cash. While there's nothing wrong with using an MC/Visa card
> in the online mode (ie with a PIN), the fact that the card could be used by a
> thief without a PIN makes it a poor choice to carry.
Yes, I can see some reasons to use an ATM-only card (or the Maestro or
Electron card) but no reason to ever use a Mastercard or Visa debit
card, though maybe someone can come up with a valid reason (other than
the card holder can't qualify for a credit card).
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> I use mine because any time I need cash I can go to a store,buy
> something with the card and get cash back with no charge. Beats having
> to drive around looking for an ATM.
You can do the same thing with a Maestro, Electron, or plain bank ATM
card. No need to risk using a Mastercard or Visa debit card. I've done
this on occasion, when going to an ATM was inconvenient.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> Never thought of that one. I have plenty of ATM's handy, but hardly
> ever use cash anyway.
And of course the plain ATM card or Maestro/Electron card can also get
you cash back.
I hate paying with an ATM card just to get some cash back because I lose
the rebate on that purchase, but I've done it on occasion when I really
needed some cash for something.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
In fact it's much simpler to make a single credit card payment after a
quick scan of the credit card bill, than to have to keep track of every
single debit on a checking account. George just proved that with his
statement that he checks his account twice a day to see the activity on
the account. Talk about using technology to make your life as
complicated as possible!
George Grapman
Some parents give their children a debit card,especially if they
are at college or otherwise away from home. Each month they put money in
the account and that has to last until the next month. The parents make
sure not to link it to their accounts.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
Some businesses take pin-based cards and nothing else, i.e. Arco gas
stations, and they charge a fee to do so. Other than Costco and one
local discount gas station chain, "Rotten Robbie," Arco has the cheapest
gas by 10-20¢/gallon. In northern California, the Arco gasoline all
comes from the Shell refinery.
George Grapman
Some straight ATM cards without the Visa or Mastercard logo will not
work at some stores. The thing I like most about my debit card is that I
can use it at almost any 7-11 ATM with no fees.
Rick Blaine
>Unless, of course, you want to use it in the classic manner:
>extracting cash from an ATM.
The branded online cards work equally as well for withdrawning funds to a linked
account at an ATM...
--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars
krw
misc.consumers, sfge...@paccbell.net says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <Mj0aj.238$6%.136@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com>, misc.consumers,
> > sfge...@paccbell.net says...
> >> krw wrote:
> >>> In article <476873c2$0$84208$742e...@news.sonic.net>,
> >>> misc.consumers, scharf...@geemail.com says...
> >>>> imascot wrote:
> >>>>> Anyone read the article warning people about debit cards in the new RD?
> >>>>> Here's the website version, looks like the same one:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.rd.com/content/debit-card-traps-and-fees-to-avoid/
> >>>>> I was surprised at the growing popularity of debit cards, I thought most
> >>>>> people were getting into trouble with credit cards.
> >>>> your checking account. Never let a debit card out of your sight, i.e. to
> >>>> pay a restaurant bill where they take it from you.
> >>> If you're going to be that paranoid, don't have a checking account.
> >>> Paying by check is no better than debit transaction.
> >>>
> >>>> It's amazing that anyone uses a debit card at all. You get none of the
> >>>> consumer protections you get with a credit card, you don't get the
> >>>> rewards programs that credit cards offer, and you risk losing your
> >>>> entire checking account balance.
> >>> No, you really don't. You may be in for a hassle, but it's not
> >>> lost. Again, paying by check is no better, if you're that
> >>> paranoid.
> >> Actually it is worse as more people see your account details.
> >
> > I agree, but that little fact would burst the pinhead OP's head.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> A surprising number of people do not see this. I have a friend who
> refuses to pay for anything via electronic checking yet regularly uses
> paper checks for retail purchases.
Yes, the banking system in the US is a "pull" system. With the
account numbers and routing info (on every check) one can *pull* as
much money out of an account as one wants. Of course it's fraud,
but that never stopped a criminal. Yet, I see the whine about
debit cards here constantly. No one complains about the "pull"
system (Europeans, AIUI, have a "push" system, which make far more
sense, IMO).
> I know people who take their pay checks to their employers bank
> (often incurring a fee) because they do no want anyone in the company to
> have their account number.
....at least their employer doesn't have their bank account
numbers. ;-) ...of course they're the least likely to do anything
mischievous with them.
At least NY (haven't looked at others - no interest ;) has a law
that makes paying by check a privilege, requiring a permit from the
state. To get the permit the employer must guarantee that the
check was easily convertible to cash, without fee. My PPOE had
accounts in every bank in the area so that employees could cash
their checks. When they went to direct deposit they had to make
exceptions for the Luddites you describe.
--
Keith
George Grapman
you are not a customer.
One of those co-workers I described was very paranoid about any paper
trail and did not even have a banking account. For some unexplained
reason he either did not have or did not want to show a bank any ID.
Each Friday we would get paid around 4. He would wait an hour or more
until one of the owners went to the bank. He would sign his check back
to them they would cash it and then give him the cash. He was a very
intelligent person but I think years of drinking clouded his thinking.
When he was laid off he never filed for unemployment. He apparently
had a legitimate Social Security card as the deductions were never
questioned.
He also played the ponies. A few times I asked what he would do if he
won a bet that required either identification or withholding. He
explained to me and I later verified that,lacking identification, one
could have the track take out 32 percent instead of 29 percent. If the
payout was only subject to reporting he could still get paid minus 32
percent so on a $700 ticket he would lose over $200.
George Grapman
while drinking my coffee or talking on the phone.
Bill
George Grapman wrote:
>
> Vic Smith wrote:
> > You really don't do that, do you?
> > I can't imagine being forced to look at my bank account twice a day
> > to make sure no fraud has occurred.
> >
> > --Vic
> A whole 60 seconds a day while I am doing other things.
It's still ridiculous to be using an account that you are so
distrustful of that you have to check on it twice a day (and
even more ridiculous to think that it's perfectly normal).
Bill
George Grapman
them or to neglect recurring automatic payments.
Wonder if you also think it is abnormal to check my stocks a few times
a day.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> Some parents give their children a debit card,especially if they are
> at college or otherwise away from home. Each month they put money in the
> account and that has to last until the next month. The parents make sure
> not to link it to their accounts.
My bank has this but it's much safer because it's a prepaid debit
Mastercard, and it isn't linked to a specific checking account.
Visa has a product like this called the PAYjr Visa Buxx card but it's
full of onerous fees. The prepaid debit Mastercard from my bank has no fees.
Be sure that there is no activation fee, no annual fee, no monthly fee,
no inactivity fee, and no reload fee. I.e. the Visa PAYjr Visa Buxx card
has the following fees: $4.95 activation fee, $2.95 monthly fee, $5
inactivity fee (no activity in 120 days) and a 50¢ reload fee.
krw
AIUI, in NY banks couldn't charge a fee if either was a customer.
I do so little business with banks that I'm not sure of the policy
in VT (and don't have an account here).
> One of those co-workers I described was very paranoid about any paper
> trail and did not even have a banking account. For some unexplained
> reason he either did not have or did not want to show a bank any ID.
> Each Friday we would get paid around 4. He would wait an hour or more
> until one of the owners went to the bank. He would sign his check back
> to them they would cash it and then give him the cash. He was a very
> intelligent person but I think years of drinking clouded his thinking.
There must be something else to it. I know one guy that did
something similar, but was keeping money cash hidden from the IRS.
He was afraid they'd seize his accounts, so kept cash (coin, in
fact).
> When he was laid off he never filed for unemployment. He apparently
> had a legitimate Social Security card as the deductions were never
> questioned.
Years ago, my wife refused to collect unemployment, even though she
could have. I was transferred out-of-state during a layoff. Since
it was a layoff and I "saved" someone else's job (by transferring
to another division), she was eligible, but didn't take it. She
might even be now, but won't file.
> He also played the ponies. A few times I asked what he would do if he
> won a bet that required either identification or withholding. He
> explained to me and I later verified that,lacking identification, one
> could have the track take out 32 percent instead of 29 percent. If the
> payout was only subject to reporting he could still get paid minus 32
> percent so on a $700 ticket he would lose over $200.
He's have to pay the tax anyway, so he didn't lose all that much.
300:1 payoffs don't happen all that often (spread the bets on
different tickets), though my friend from above had taxes withheld
on a $68 payout. He was pissed and I laughed my ass off.
--
Keith
LDC
<sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
Too bad you never take a vacation, you really should try it
sometime. I'm am frequently out of the country for more than a
month at a time and have no need to worry about the status of my
accounts. A once a month check of my CU accounts is more than
sufficient. Living in front of a computer is a waste.
George Grapman
I think it was the thin line between genius and insanity. This man
was pretty much living from pay check to pay check and his income was
being reported. He would take BART to work. For those who do not know
BART fares are based on distance. You buy a ticket and slide it when you
enter the station. Leaving you do the same and it deducts your fare. Not
only would he never buy a discount ticket he would not even buy a round
trip which,of course, delayed his return trip because he had to go to
the machine. He told me that he had been cheated a few times on larger
tickets. Even though I only use it 4 or 5 times a month I find it
easier to pay $20 at a time (my normal fare downtown is $1.50).
>
>> When he was laid off he never filed for unemployment. He apparently
>> had a legitimate Social Security card as the deductions were never
>> questioned.
>
> Years ago, my wife refused to collect unemployment, even though she
> could have. I was transferred out-of-state during a layoff. Since
> it was a layoff and I "saved" someone else's job (by transferring
> to another division), she was eligible, but didn't take it. She
> might even be now, but won't file.
>
>> He also played the ponies. A few times I asked what he would do if he
>> won a bet that required either identification or withholding. He
>> explained to me and I later verified that,lacking identification, one
>> could have the track take out 32 percent instead of 29 percent. If the
>> payout was only subject to reporting he could still get paid minus 32
>> percent so on a $700 ticket he would lose over $200.
>
> He's have to pay the tax anyway, so he didn't lose all that much.
> 300:1 payoffs don't happen all that often (spread the bets on
> different tickets), though my friend from above had taxes withheld
> on a $68 payout. He was pissed and I laughed my ass off.
>
You can buy smaller tickets but let's say that instead of doing a $1
trifecta box you buy six $1 tickets. If one of those tickets pays over
$600 it gets reported.
The unfair part is people who go deep in the Pick 6 and bet,say,200
combinations for $400.. If one bet pays $800 it is reported even though
your overall result was even money because as far as the IRS is
concerned you made 200 unrelated wagers even though they might all be on
one ticket. The other unfair part is you pay a tax on every bet ,win or
lose.
The most I ever won was $580 on a P6 consolation which,of course, was
better than winning $600.
The CA tracks now offer a 10 cent perfecta which pays 10 percent of
the one dollar payoff. Some people buy 10 dime bets instead of a single
$1 wager to avoid the IRS. I never played it before because a $24 4
horse and a $120 5 horse were too steep for me but $2.40 or $12 are
doable. Best I had was $2.40 box that returned $80.
George Grapman
You are right. My last vacation was only three weeks long in August.
jo...@phred.org
says...
> # The big car-rental firms, including Hertz and Avis, have stopped letting
> people rent cars using debit cards.
I can confirm that's not true for Hertz or Enterprise, both happily
accept my debit card for car rentals.
> # Another debit card danger arises from merchant “blocking.” Blocking occurs
> when a merchant routinely withholds an amount on a debit card until the
> transaction is fully processed. This typically occurs at hotels, gas stations,
> and those rental car companies that still accept debit cards. When you use a
> debit card, the blocked amount can cause your bank account to be overdrawn.
I suppose it's possible that some merchants actually draft the
"blocked" amount, but it has never happened with any of my car rentals,
hotel reservations, gas station visits, or other debit card
transactions. They've only ever charged the actual amount due. This is
different from credit cards, where you can see the "available credit"
reduced by hotels etc, causing a card to be declined when you are still
well below your credit limit in actual charges.
--
jo...@phred.org is Joshua Putnam
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/>
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
<http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html>
George Grapman
> In article <hclim35ieptbekoc9...@4ax.com>, do...@bother.com
> says...
>
>> # The big car-rental firms, including Hertz and Avis, have stopped letting
>> people rent cars using debit cards.
>
> I can confirm that's not true for Hertz or Enterprise, both happily
> accept my debit card for car rentals.
I have used debit cards at Avis and Budget. I varies by location so
you should verify when you call.
>
>> # Another debit card danger arises from merchant “blocking.” Blocking occurs
>> when a merchant routinely withholds an amount on a debit card until the
>> transaction is fully processed. This typically occurs at hotels, gas stations,
>> and those rental car companies that still accept debit cards. When you use a
>> debit card, the blocked amount can cause your bank account to be overdrawn.
>
> I suppose it's possible that some merchants actually draft the
> "blocked" amount, but it has never happened with any of my car rentals,
> hotel reservations, gas station visits, or other debit card
> transactions. They've only ever charged the actual amount due. This is
> different from credit cards, where you can see the "available credit"
> reduced by hotels etc, causing a card to be declined when you are still
> well below your credit limit in actual charges.
My checking balance will have two sections, balance and available
balance. The difference can be caused by either a pending debit or a
hold placed on a check. When I swipe the card as a debit card the amount
and merchant appear immediately but when swiped as a credit card the
amount is deducted from the available balance and takes a day or two to
show up.
>
jo...@phred.org
sfge...@paccbell.net says...
> On a related note debit cards have really cut into the sales of
> travelers checks. I can not remember the last time I used them.
I know when I last used TCs -- a month in India in the early '90s. I
hadn't been to India in years, and was expecting the same crumpled-paper
economy I'd experienced in the mid-'80s, so I took along a couple of
thousand dollars in travelers checks. Didn't use any of them, most
larger stores were happy to take my credit card, and I got a better
exchange rate, too.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> In article <sufaj.30936$lD6....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
> sfge...@paccbell.net says...
>
>> On a related note debit cards have really cut into the sales of
>> travelers checks. I can not remember the last time I used them.
>
> I know when I last used TCs -- a month in India in the early '90s. I
> hadn't been to India in years, and was expecting the same crumpled-paper
> economy I'd experienced in the mid-'80s, so I took along a couple of
> thousand dollars in travelers checks. Didn't use any of them, most
> larger stores were happy to take my credit card, and I got a better
> exchange rate, too.
I took some travelers checks to Russia, and came back with all of them.
Merchants didn't want to take them, and to cash them required going to
one of the few banks that would cash them. For some reason, in Russia
they would only take U.S. dollars that were in perfect condition, not
even a tiny tear was acceptable.
George Grapman
> In article <sufaj.30936$lD6....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
> sfge...@paccbell.net says...
>
>> On a related note debit cards have really cut into the sales of
>> travelers checks. I can not remember the last time I used them.
>
> I know when I last used TCs -- a month in India in the early '90s. I
> hadn't been to India in years, and was expecting the same crumpled-paper
> economy I'd experienced in the mid-'80s, so I took along a couple of
> thousand dollars in travelers checks. Didn't use any of them, most
> larger stores were happy to take my credit card, and I got a better
> exchange rate, too.
>
time reading it so rather than make notes to myself I type them in my
computer,speak into a digital recorder or call my voice mail to leave
messages.
On two different trips I was using travelers checks. Both times after
signing the bottom part I was asked for ID and both times was then told
not to bother as they were sure that no one could forge my signature.
Remember when a benefit of belonging to AAA was no fee traveler checks?
Rick Blaine
>I can confirm that's not true for Hertz or Enterprise, both happily
>accept my debit card for car rentals.
National allows you to pay for a rental upon return with a debit card, but not
take a vehicle out on one.
Rick Blaine
>I suppose it's possible that some merchants actually draft the
>"blocked" amount, but it has never happened with any of my car rentals,
>hotel reservations, gas station visits, or other debit card
>transactions. They've only ever charged the actual amount due. This is
>different from credit cards, where you can see the "available credit"
>reduced by hotels etc, causing a card to be declined when you are still
>well below your credit limit in actual charges.
That's not what a block is. A block is when a merchant reserves a larger amount
and prevents you from using it for other purposes until the block expires.
George Grapman
I used to work in a video store that also rented high end stuff. When
people rented a projection tv (remember those?) we required either a
cash deposit or a credit card for the retail price of the item. We would
carefully explain that as long as the tv was returned in the same
condition we would only charge the rental rate and would return the
deposit invoice to them. We also told them that the retail amount would
lower their available credit for a few days but we would still have
customers who would rent a tv for a super bowl party, have their card
declined at another store,call their bank which told them we had an
unprocessed transaction and then blame us because they could not
purchase things for their party.
Bill
I had those cards for my daughter when she was in high school.
First I had an AMEX Cobalt card, which was fee-free. That
folded, then I was able to get a Citibank card which usually had
a startup fee but I got a code to get it for free (and there
were no other fees). It folded as well.
The Visa Buxx has been around for a while and the banks offering
it have always had awful fees. Is your bank's something similar
(in terms of features for kids) or is it just a standard
pre-paid debit card? What bank is it?
Bill
Fake ID
krw <k...@att.bizzzzz> wrote:
>
>Yes, the banking system in the US is a "pull" system. With the
>account numbers and routing info (on every check) one can *pull* as
>much money out of an account as one wants. Of course it's fraud,
>but that never stopped a criminal. Yet, I see the whine about
>debit cards here constantly. No one complains about the "pull"
>system (Europeans, AIUI, have a "push" system, which make far more
>sense, IMO).
Until recently you could turn to Your Money Access to suck money out of
people's accounts. I'd bet there are plenty more like them.
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/22935
>> I know people who take their pay checks to their employers bank
>> (often incurring a fee) because they do no want anyone in the company to
>> have their account number.
>
>At least NY (haven't looked at others - no interest ;) has a law
>that makes paying by check a privilege, requiring a permit from the
>state. To get the permit the employer must guarantee that the
>check was easily convertible to cash, without fee. My PPOE had
More indirect in CA. The bank fee meant the employee didn't get his/her
full pay, puting the employer in violation of the law.
m
Evelyn C. Leeper
> In article <sufaj.30936$lD6....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
> sfge...@paccbell.net says...
>
>> On a related note debit cards have really cut into the sales of
>> travelers checks. I can not remember the last time I used them.
>
> I know when I last used TCs -- a month in India in the early '90s. I
> hadn't been to India in years, and was expecting the same crumpled-paper
> economy I'd experienced in the mid-'80s, so I took along a couple of
> thousand dollars in travelers checks. Didn't use any of them, most
> larger stores were happy to take my credit card, and I got a better
> exchange rate, too.
We used them in Vietnam in 2001. No one took credit cards.
We also used them in India in 1992, and Japan in 1996. While we could
use credit cards, we also needed cash for a lot of things. (Japan had
ATMs, but finding ones with English prompts was difficult at that time.)
We also used TCs in Turkey in 1998 when we couldn't get our ATM cards to
work because the phone lines were so poor.
--
Evelyn C. Leeper
I believe I found the missing link between animal
and civilized man. It is us. -Konrad Lorenz
goa...@fractious.net
> but that never stopped a criminal. Yet, I see the whine about
> debit cards here constantly. No one complains about the "pull"
> system (Europeans, AIUI, have a "push" system, which make far more
> sense, IMO).
Folks can complain all they like, but they basically have
little choice but to have a checking account with all the
vulerability that entails. It's easy to avoid having a
debit card, though, and it's not too hard to minimize
the likelihood of that checking account vulerability
being taken advantage of (ie. never authorize anyone
to pull money from the account - always push payments
yourself, try not to write many checks, and, of course,
don't use debit cards).
The Europeans (actually, the only ones I know for sure
use a system like what you describe are the Germans)
bank check system is definitely better. But it's not
coming here too quickly. In the meantime, folks should
do what they can - starting with avoiding debit cards.
That said, for all that folks claim that your checking
account number is such a vulnerability - anyone who
actually *processes* an ACH transaction for your account
needs to provide proof that you authorized it and they
can get in some serious trouble (ie. lose their authorization
to process them - and thereby very likely go out of
business - and this is the *processors* not the little
fly-by-night merchants).
> > I know people who take their pay checks to their employers bank
> > (often incurring a fee) because they do no want anyone in the company to
> > have their account number.
>
> ....at least their employer doesn't have their bank account
> numbers. ;-) ...of course they're the least likely to do anything
> mischievous with them.
It'd probably be a lot easier for those folks just to keep
a second account - their "real* account - and have their
employer's ACH payroll deposits go into a temporary "holding"
account. As soon as it arrives there, transfer it elsewhere.
Their payroll deposit account, a checknig account, is probably
not earning them much interest anyway and they shouldn't be
keeping much there regardless.
--
Peter Bruells
> krw <k...@att.bizzzzz> writes:
>
>> but that never stopped a criminal. Yet, I see the whine about
>> debit cards here constantly. No one complains about the "pull"
>> system (Europeans, AIUI, have a "push" system, which make far more
>> sense, IMO).
>
....
> The Europeans (actually, the only ones I know for sure
> use a system like what you describe are the Germans)
> bank check system is definitely better. But it's not
> coming here too quickly. In the meantime, folks should
> do what they can - starting with avoiding debit cards.
Actually, unless I misunderstood, we have a pull system at well. I
can authorize a seller to pull money directly from my giro account. I
usually prefer that because it is basically tamper proof, if one
bothers to check his statements.
A bank *has* to re-call such a direct debit when the account holder
objects and the proof of burden lies with the other party.
George Grapman
> SMS ???• ? wrote:
>> George Grapman wrote:
>>
>>> Some parents give their children a debit card,especially if they are
>>> at college or otherwise away from home. Each month they put money in the
>>> account and that has to last until the next month. The parents make sure
>>> not to link it to their accounts.
>> My bank has this but it's much safer because it's a prepaid debit
>> Mastercard, and it isn't linked to a specific checking account.
>>
>> Visa has a product like this called the PAYjr Visa Buxx card but it's
>> full of onerous fees. The prepaid debit Mastercard from my bank has no fees.
>>
>> Be sure that there is no activation fee, no annual fee, no monthly fee,
>> no inactivity fee, and no reload fee. I.e. the Visa PAYjr Visa Buxx card
>> has the following fees: $4.95 activation fee, $2.95 monthly fee, $5
>
> I had those cards for my daughter when she was in high school.
> First I had an AMEX Cobalt card, which was fee-free. That
> folded, then I was able to get a Citibank card which usually had
> a startup fee but I got a code to get it for free (and there
> were no other fees). It folded as well.
>
> The Visa Buxx has been around for a while and the banks offering
> it have always had awful fees. Is your bank's something similar
> (in terms of features for kids) or is it just a standard
> pre-paid debit card? What bank is it?
>
> Bill
The rip off check cashing places here sell them with a list of fees
including activation,reloading and monthly fees.
rick++
> The real question is why anyone would ever want to use a MC/Visa debit
> card rather than a credit card. The advantages of using a credit card
> are overwhelming.
20% or more of US residents are totally outside of the US banking
system.
A debit card is easier to obtain at the beginning.
val189
> Correct. I check mine twice a day. Takes about 30 seconds each time.
> It also helps me keep track of recurring charges which may vary slightly
> from month to month.
Twice a day? Does your bank or cr. cd. co. post changes more than
once in 24 hours? Lucky you.
I check my cr. cd. and 'gateway' chkg accounts once a day and have
never found them to change more often than once daily.
One of mine just changed the menu tho - it's taking about 45 seconds
now to go thru the process. Yet, it's quicker than their online
method.
Bill
>
> The rip off check cashing places here sell them with a list of fees
> including activation,reloading and monthly fees.
You don't have to go to rip off places. Drug stores sell them as
well.
Bill
Bill
val189 wrote:
>
> On Dec 19, 11:39 am, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
> > Correct. I check mine twice a day. Takes about 30 seconds each time.
> > It also helps me keep track of recurring charges which may vary slightly
> > from month to month.
>
> Twice a day? Does your bank or cr. cd. co. post changes more than
> once in 24 hours? Lucky you.
> I check my cr. cd. and 'gateway' chkg accounts once a day and have
> never found them to change more often than once daily.
Citibank shows incoming charges on my checking account as they
happen. I wish they did the same with credit cards, showing
charge authorizations. That said, I still wouldn't check twice a
day.
Bill
George Grapman
> On Dec 19, 11:39 am, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Correct. I check mine twice a day. Takes about 30 seconds each time.
>> It also helps me keep track of recurring charges which may vary slightly
>> from month to month.
>
> Twice a day? Does your bank or cr. cd. co. post changes more than
> once in 24 hours? Lucky you.
> I check my cr. cd. and 'gateway' chkg accounts once a day and have
> never found them to change more often than once daily.
Seems to happen almost immediately. I got gas on the way home and
after seeing your post I logged on to my account. The purchase was there
along with the name and address of the station.
SMS 斯蒂文• 夏
> The Visa Buxx has been around for a while and the banks offering
> it have always had awful fees. Is your bank's something similar
> (in terms of features for kids) or is it just a standard
> pre-paid debit card? What bank is it?
It's a similar card to the Visa Buxx card, but it's a Mastercard logo
debit card, and the bank does not charge any fees for it.
I don't disclose my bank on Usenet, but suffice it to say that it's
consistently the top-rated bank for the best customer service and lowest
fees in the U.S., and their are no branch locations anywhere.
jo...@phred.org
8b0ce5...@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, gweh...@bellsouth.net
says...
> On Dec 19, 11:39 am, George Grapman <sfgeo...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>
> > Correct. I check mine twice a day. Takes about 30 seconds each time.
> > It also helps me keep track of recurring charges which may vary slightly
> > from month to month.
>
> Twice a day? Does your bank or cr. cd. co. post changes more than
> once in 24 hours? Lucky you.
Most of my credit cards only update once a day, my debit cards update
within minutes of the transaction -- I could tell my wife was almost
home last night because a she filled up the car five miles from here,
and the charge showed up before she did.
Shawn Hirn
<e4e6c3e5-2b89-42c6...@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
"rick++" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The RD article is deceptive.
> All the their debit cards I've been given have the same
> protections as their credit card according the bank policy.
> They are combo ATM-Debit Cards, which may be the reason.
Right. I have two debit cards and the maximum exposure for me is $50 if
either is lost or stolen. Still, I only use them for purchases at
businesses I trust and have a long history of dealing with.