Re: Home heating oil price?
jtno...@yahoo.com
> Jan Flora <snows...@xyz.net> wrote in message
>
> news:snowshoe-8CA793...@prawn.nwc.acsalaska.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <pan.2008.08.25.16.42.47.313...@epix.net>,
> > Ann <nntpm...@epix.net> wrote:
>
> > > What's the current home heating oil price in your area? It's 3.75 in
> > > north PA. Glad I didn't panic and prepay; that's 4.70. Undecided
> whether
> > > I should buy now or bet on it dropping some more.
>
> > $5.56/gal in Homer, Alaska -- which is 80 miles to a refinery on a road.
>
> > (As opposed to 100 miles from the refinery and requires a barge to haul
> > the delivery truck from Homer to the villages, like Seldovia, Nanwalek,
> > Halibut Cove and Port Graham right across the bay from us. I don't know
> > what they're paying.)
>
> > Gasoline peaked at $5.06/gal. It's down to $4.86 right now.
>
> > Jan
>
> Makes me feel better about what I am paying. Gas down to $3.87 as of this
> morning. Locked in propane price for the coming heating season of $3.449 a
> gallon. If I could have prepaid $3500, could lock in $3.249 a gallon.
>
> Jan
>
> Learn something new every day
> As long as you are learning, you are living
> When you stop learning, you start dying- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
You can burn biodiesel in an oil heater, here is how to make it:
http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/
I suggest using denatured ethanol instead of methanol, it is a little
safer to use and easier to obtain.
You can use waste oil from a restaurant, lard, save your grease from
hamburger, bacon, sausage, fry oil, etc.
The conversion to biodiesel solves the cold congealing down to very
low temperatures.
You can use it straight with minor adjustments or blend with the
petroleum variety up to 50% with no adjustments, IME.
For those less brave, you can blend used fry oil directly with heating
oil up to 20% WVO (waste vegetable oil), providing your oil tank has
some protection from extreme cold. Also, try to time it so your tank
is near empty close to the end of the cold season, and fill partway
with heating oil to use it up and flush out the lines, WVO tends to
oxidize and gum up over the summer
Filter with a coffee filter before blending.
You can also blend in used tranny (auto transmission oil) up to about
30% with no problems. Filter first, and I hold a strong magnet on the
funnel to pick up
steel shavings lost from tranny operation.
Don't tell your oil salesman, he may rat you out.
Do not use unconverted animal fat, it will cogeal.
Let us know how it works for you.-Jitney
Rod Speed
> You can burn biodiesel in an oil heater, here is how to make it:
> http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/
> I suggest using denatured ethanol instead of methanol, it is a little
> safer to use and easier to obtain.
> You can use waste oil from a restaurant, lard, save your grease from
> hamburger, bacon, sausage, fry oil, etc.
> The conversion to biodiesel solves the cold congealing down to very
> low temperatures.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that of what a degree in political science is worth.
> You can use it straight with minor adjustments or blend with
> the petroleum variety up to 50% with no adjustments, IME.
Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that of what a degree in political science is worth.
> For those less brave, you can blend used fry oil directly with heating
> oil up to 20% WVO (waste vegetable oil), providing your oil tank has
> some protection from extreme cold. Also, try to time it so your tank
> is near empty close to the end of the cold season, and fill partway
> with heating oil to use it up and flush out the lines, WVO tends to
> oxidize and gum up over the summer
> Filter with a coffee filter before blending.
> You can also blend in used tranny (auto transmission oil) up to about
> 30% with no problems. Filter first, and I hold a strong magnet on the
> funnel to pick up
> steel shavings lost from tranny operation.
> Don't tell your oil salesman, he may rat you out.
> Do not use unconverted animal fat, it will cogeal.
> Let us know how it works for you.
Bit hard if he ends up dead, liar.
h
<jtno...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e4459f57-04f5-4e45...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 25, 2:03 pm, "JonquilJan" <war...@imcnet.net> wrote:
> Jan Flora <snows...@xyz.net> wrote in message
>
> news:snowshoe-8CA793...@prawn.nwc.acsalaska.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <pan.2008.08.25.16.42.47.313...@epix.net>,
> > Ann <nntpm...@epix.net> wrote:
>
> > > What's the current home heating oil price in your area? It's 3.75 in
> > > north PA. Glad I didn't panic and prepay; that's 4.70. Undecided
> whether
> > > I should buy now or bet on it dropping some more.
>
drops? Wow, that sucks. My plan requires an annual, up-front payment to lock
in a lower rate than pay-as-you-go. However, if the price of oil drops below
the originally reduced price, all future deliveries are calculated on the
lower rate, so my money goes further (I have money left over to be applied
to the following year). This is with a mom and pop company in upstate NY.
Ann
The company does also have some sort of plan like that, but it's tied to
auto-fill. For several reasons, I prefer to decide how much oil I want,
and when.
h
"Ann" <nntp...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.08.29....@epix.net...
Ah, that makes sense. I've always had auto-fill and it works great for me,
since it's already paid for and I don't have to remember to call them.
Lou
> >> > <nntpm...@epix.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > What's the current home heating oil price in your area? It's 3.75
in
> >> > > north PA. Glad I didn't panic and prepay; that's 4.70. Undecided
> >> whether
> >> > > I should buy now or bet on it dropping some more.
> >>
> > ???Your pre-pay plan doesn't include an automatic reduction if the price
> > drops? Wow, that sucks. My plan requires an annual, up-front payment to
> > lock in a lower rate than pay-as-you-go. However, if the price of oil
> > drops below the originally reduced price, all future deliveries are
> > calculated on the lower rate, so my money goes further (I have money
left
> > over to be applied to the following year). This is with a mom and pop
> > company in upstate NY.
>
> The company does also have some sort of plan like that, but it's tied to
> auto-fill. For several reasons, I prefer to decide how much oil I want,
> and when.
I can understand the when, sorta - if you're short of cash today maybe you
can eke out another week on the oil in your tank. But overall, you're going
to need it when you need it, and how often the tank gets filled isn't going
to change how much you buy - it's not like they could put another 100
gallons of oil into an already full tank.
Years ago, I rented a place that had oil heat, and the auto-fill was a great
convenience as far as I was concerned. And if it also means that you'll
spend less on heat this coming winter, well, how much is that deciding how
much and when worth in terms of cold, hard, cash?
Ann
That isn't one of the several reasons. <g> When heating oil prices were
following the normal pattern of dropping in the summer, I'd have it filled
at the "summer fill" price, then get another ~250 gallons sometime between
when the tank was drawn down enough to take it and when it got
uncomfortably low. Exactly when depended on my guesstimate on which way
the price would go and the weather prediction.
> Years ago, I rented a place that had oil heat, and the auto-fill was a
> great convenience as far as I was concerned. And if it also means that
> you'll spend less on heat this coming winter, well, how much is that
> deciding how much and when worth in terms of cold, hard, cash?
Auto-fill is not convenient when the furnace goes off Friday evening in
below freezing weather (empty tank) and no one responds the message
left at the 24-hour number until Monday morning. It's not convenient to
plow an extra 150' of drive every time it snows in case the company
might decide to deliver oil before the snow melts. And auto-fill is not
cheaper if they decide to fill the tank when there is a month's supply
left and the price is falling.
And of course, a company can always do what the previous owner of the
company that serves my area did ... when they realized they had bet wrong,
they canceled the plans they'd offered (and signed some people up for) and
sold the company.
Jim
>
[....]
>
> And of course, a company can always do what the previous owner of the
> company that serves my area did ... when they realized they had bet wrong,
> they canceled the plans they'd offered (and signed some people up for) and
> sold the company.
don't you just hate it when you get sold? <g>
Ann
Umm ... no, this time I don't agree that the referent is ambiguous.
h
Ok, I don't get any of that. I've never had my tank come even close to going
empty using auto-fill. Also, even if call at 4am (and I have) there is a
human being to answer the phone and send out a repair man within a few
minutes. Don't you need to plow the driveway to get in and out yourself? I
pay a "lower than non-annual pay" rate up front (at least $.50 a gallon). If
the "regular" oil price drops below that amount (it never, ever has) during
the year, I get the lower rate on all deliveries after that point. Why on
earth would I try to ride the rate waves, when it's all done for me? Right
now the annual price is $4.45/gallon with the "budget" (12 equal payments)
price is $4.90/gallon, and the "have your tank filled now" price is
$4.99/gallon. Gee, what do you think I'm going to do? I wish I lived where
oil was under $4/gallon, but I live in the state with the highest taxes in
the US (probably on earth).
BR
I used to have auto-fill, back when the contact said that I got a free
fill if they ever let me run out! Although they never got a free fill
(they came up whenever the road was open ti make sure that I wouldn't
run out), they canceled that provision when the prices went nuts, so I'm
back on "pay as you go". In the old days when prices were low on the
summer that's when I would have the two nearly empty tanks filled, then
top off just before the road closed for the Winter. Now the best time
to buy seems to be "shoulder season", which is about now: After the
summer driving season is over, but before the cold weather really begins.
--
Remove the TOS star ship captain to reply privately.
Ann
And, I didn't suggest that you not elect auto-fill if it works for you.
> Don't you need to plow the driveway to get in and out
> yourself?
No. I keep my vehicle in the garage, which is along the drive between the
house and the road. And since I'm retired, I don't have to get out every
weekday.
> I pay a "lower than non-annual pay" rate up front (at least $.50
> a gallon). If the "regular" oil price drops below that amount (it never,
> ever has) during the year, I get the lower rate on all deliveries after
> that point. Why on earth would I try to ride the rate waves, when it's all
> done for me? Right now the annual price is $4.45/gallon with the "budget"
> (12 equal payments) price is $4.90/gallon, and the "have your tank filled
> now" price is $4.99/gallon. Gee, what do you think I'm going to do? I wish
> I lived where oil was under $4/gallon, but I live in the state with the
> highest taxes in the US (probably on earth).
Again, I didn't take exception to the way you choose to buy your home
heating oil. And if you want to use a budget plan and not get a 10-day
cash discount, that's up to you. I am doubtful that the much higher
market price you quoted is attributable to NYS tax. I'm near the NY/PA
border and do most of my grocery shopping in the Southern Tier. I seldom
see more than a 10-cent per gallon gasoline price differential.
h
>
>> I pay a "lower than non-annual pay" rate up front (at least $.50
>> a gallon). If the "regular" oil price drops below that amount (it never,
>> ever has) during the year, I get the lower rate on all deliveries after
>> that point. Why on earth would I try to ride the rate waves, when it's
>> all
>> done for me? Right now the annual price is $4.45/gallon with the "budget"
>> (12 equal payments) price is $4.90/gallon, and the "have your tank filled
>> now" price is $4.99/gallon. Gee, what do you think I'm going to do? I
>> wish
>> I lived where oil was under $4/gallon, but I live in the state with the
>> highest taxes in the US (probably on earth).
>
> Again, I didn't take exception to the way you choose to buy your home
> heating oil. And if you want to use a budget plan and not get a 10-day
> cash discount, that's up to you. I am doubtful that the much higher
> market price you quoted is attributable to NYS tax. I'm near the NY/PA
> border and do most of my grocery shopping in the Southern Tier. I seldom
> see more than a 10-cent per gallon gasoline price differential.
>
I'm talking about heating oil, not gasoline. I pay cash, up-front, once a
year to get the much lower price, not a "budget" plan. Pay as you go (cash)
is the most expnsive way to buy heating oil, at least around here.
As far as gasoline goes, upstate NY is currently paying about $3.85/gallon
which is much higher than downstate NY. Everything costs more here than in
NYC.
Jeff
Ouch. How much is electricity there? From my rough calculation, electric
resistance heating at 10 cents a kWhr is the same cost. This has got to
hurt.
Jeff
enigma
news:if6dnSPZp9UTNCfV...@earthlink.com:
> Ouch. How much is electricity there? From my rough
> calculation, electric resistance heating at 10 cents a kWhr
> is the same cost. This has got to hurt.
i don't know about PA, but in NH my electric is .14/kWh. at
my upstate NH house it's around .8.5/kWh. oil at both is
around $4.68/gallon
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.
Ann
>
> "Ann" <nntp...@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2008.08.31....@epix.net...
>>
>>> I pay a "lower than non-annual pay" rate up front (at least $.50 a
>>> gallon). If the "regular" oil price drops below that amount (it never,
>>> ever has) during the year, I get the lower rate on all deliveries after
>>> that point. Why on earth would I try to ride the rate waves, when it's
>>> all
>>> done for me? Right now the annual price is $4.45/gallon with the
>>> "budget" (12 equal payments) price is $4.90/gallon, and the "have your
>>> tank filled now" price is $4.99/gallon. Gee, what do you think I'm
>>> going to do? I wish
>>> I lived where oil was under $4/gallon, but I live in the state with the
>>> highest taxes in the US (probably on earth).
>>
>> Again, I didn't take exception to the way you choose to buy your home
>> heating oil. And if you want to use a budget plan and not get a 10-day
>> cash discount, that's up to you. I am doubtful that the much higher
>> market price you quoted is attributable to NYS tax. I'm near the NY/PA
>> border and do most of my grocery shopping in the Southern Tier. I seldom
>> see more than a 10-cent per gallon gasoline price differential.
>>
>>
> I'm talking about heating oil, not gasoline.
What I wrote was in response to your remark about NY taxes. Usually, state
taxes on gasoline are at least as much as those on home heating oil.
> I pay cash, up-front, once a
> year to get the much lower price, not a "budget" plan.
My mistake.
Ann
> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in
> news:if6dnSPZp9UTNCfV...@earthlink.com:
>
>> Ouch. How much is electricity there? From my rough calculation, electric
>> resistance heating at 10 cents a kWhr is the same cost. This has got to
>> hurt.
>
> i don't know about PA, but in NH my electric is .14/kWh. at
> my upstate NH house it's around .8.5/kWh. oil at both is around
> $4.68/gallon
> lee
Unless you are locked in and/or want to stick with a particular dealer, it
would probably pay to shop around. $4.70 seems to have been the standard
lock-in price in the northeast in July, but oil has dropped since then,
along with gasoline prices. In mid-August, the non-plan price in Boston
area was around $4.00 and $3.80 in Syracuse. How much it is a week from
now depends on Gustav and how much driving people did over Labor Day.
enigma
news:pan.2008.08.31....@epix.net:
> Unless you are locked in and/or want to stick with a
> particular dealer, it would probably pay to shop around.
> $4.70 seems to have been the standard lock-in price in the
> northeast in July, but oil has dropped since then, along
> with gasoline prices. In mid-August, the non-plan price in
> Boston area was around $4.00 and $3.80 in Syracuse. How
> much it is a week from now depends on Gustav and how much
> driving people did over Labor Day.
nope, not locked in. i have one full & one quarter full tank
already, and we're getting insulation this week. i figure i'll
buy it when i need it or after things settle a bit in
Nov./Dec. i won't *need* any before then in any case.
i do need to get the tank in NY filled before it starts
freezing, but that's Kero & we only keep that place at 50 to
keep stuff from freezing.
JonquilJan
news:Xns9B0B710A94B9...@199.125.85.9...
> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in
> news:if6dnSPZp9UTNCfV...@earthlink.com:
>
> > Ouch. How much is electricity there? From my rough
> > calculation, electric resistance heating at 10 cents a kWhr
> > is the same cost. This has got to hurt.
>
> i don't know about PA, but in NH my electric is .14/kWh. at
> my upstate NH house it's around .8.5/kWh. oil at both is
> around $4.68/gallon
> lee
are ,030799/kWh plus a 2.04082% surcharge on the delivery service plus
basic delivery service (other than useage) of $16.21. The delivery services
are over half my bill.
What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company is
National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit - trying
to do 'my part').
JonquilJan
Jim
>
[....]
>
> What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country?
http://www.ncuc.commerce.state.nc.us/
when the haircuts at Progress Energy want to get a pay increase
they have to go before the PUC and make their case. it can be
pretty funny sometimes. the energy companies have learned if
they want an 8% increase they need to begin their request at
around 17%. then it's golf-guy outings and negotiations...
AL
As a PE, once upon a time I prepared COS studies for rate increase requests.
I can say you are uninformed.
AL
clams_casino
>
>Here (northern New York) my electric is .13028/kWh - but - delivery services
>are ,030799/kWh plus a 2.04082% surcharge on the delivery service plus
>basic delivery service (other than useage) of $16.21. The delivery services
>are over half my bill.
>
>What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company is
>National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit - trying
>to do 'my part').
>
>
>
Our last National Grid bill was 16.6 cents/ kWH (RI). The rate is
scheduled to increase 20% this month (bill should be arriving this week)
Jeff
> enigma <eni...@evil.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9B0B710A94B9...@199.125.85.9...
>> Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote in
>> news:if6dnSPZp9UTNCfV...@earthlink.com:
>>
>>> Ouch. How much is electricity there? From my rough
>>> calculation, electric resistance heating at 10 cents a kWhr
>>> is the same cost. This has got to hurt.
>> i don't know about PA, but in NH my electric is .14/kWh. at
>> my upstate NH house it's around .8.5/kWh. oil at both is
>> around $4.68/gallon
>> lee
> Here (northern New York) my electric is .13028/kWh - but - delivery services
> are ,030799/kWh plus a 2.04082% surcharge on the delivery service plus
> basic delivery service (other than useage) of $16.21. The delivery services
> are over half my bill.
>
> What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country?
Not as bad here in Atlanta. About .10/kWh averaging in delivery and
other costs. A surcharge for going over 650kWh in the summer and a
discount in the winter. Most people heat with natural gas which is a
good bit cheaper but is subject to wild fluctuations, I've been adding
solar thermal none the less.
I can't help but think that the pain people feel at the pump is minor
compared to heating a house in a cold climate with oil.
Jeff
Stu
wrote:
>What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country?
East Central Oklahoma:
December-February
$18.00/ month + $0.07950 for first 800 kwh's then $0.05950 over 800
kwh's.
March-November:
$18.00/ month + $0.07950 all.
There are no delivery fees or extra taxes for electricity.
(PeteCresswell)
>What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country?
Philadelphia PA, Exelon. My June bill came to .164/kwhr
--
PeteCresswell
Ron Peterson
> What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company is
> National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit - trying
> to do 'my part').
http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/115.htm shows the average electric
rate by state.
--
Ron
h
But, again, I pay once a year, upfront to lock in the price, but if the
price drops below that at any point, I pay the lower amount. That is
standard, as long as you have auto-delivery.
Ann
> "Ann"
>> enigma
>>> Jeff
>>>> Ouch. How much is electricity there? From my rough calculation,
>>>> electric resistance heating at 10 cents a kWhr is the same cost. This
>>>> has got to hurt.
>>>
>>> i don't know about PA, but in NH my electric is .14/kWh. at
>>> my upstate NH house it's around .8.5/kWh. oil at both is around
>>> $4.68/gallon
>>> lee
>>
>> Unless you are locked in and/or want to stick with a particular dealer,
>> it would probably pay to shop around. $4.70 seems to have been the
>> standard lock-in price in the northeast in July, but oil has dropped
>> since then, along with gasoline prices. In mid-August, the non-plan
>> price in Boston area was around $4.00 and $3.80 in Syracuse. How much
>> it is a week from now depends on Gustav and how much driving people did
>> over Labor Day.
>
> But, again, I pay once a year, upfront to lock in the price, but if the
> price drops below that at any point, I pay the lower amount. That is
> standard, as long as you have auto-delivery.
That's what I thought until I misinterpreted your mention of "budget".
What is the basis of your dealer's decision that there has been a price
drop? You wrote last week that "right now" your dealer's "regular" price
was $4.99/gallon. That's conservatively $0.75 high compared to the
market-based regular price.
Home heating oil dealers aren't philanthropic organizations; they are in
business to make a profit. When they promote "price protection" plans
it's a reasonable conclusion that the plans are beneficial to the dealer
as well. You mentioned that your dealer's price had "never" dropped.
Perhaps they have a locked-in price with their wholesaler. And, they have
enough regular customers enrolled in their plan that it doesn't matter
that the higher then market-based regular price will cost them a few
will-call customers.
h
Not in upstate NY it's not. Some places are charging over $5/gallon.
(PeteCresswell)
Anybody know if those are the real numbers, or just what the
utilities stated charges?
e.g. My supplier might claim my rate is xx per kwhr, but when I
divide the bottom line of the bill by kwhr, I might get yy per
kwhr.
i.e.
"Generation Charges",
"Transmission Charges",
"Distribution Charges",
"Transition Charges",
"State Tax Adjustment",
"State Taxes",
"State Gross Receipts Tax",
"Intangible Transition Charges".... and all that.
--
PeteCresswell
clams_casino
Interesting. All the high pollution, coal burning (mid west) states
have low rates & as their pollution drops down into the northeast, they
are pressured to have expensive, clean burning plants.
clams_casino
As far as I'm concerned, average cost = total cost / kWH. How they get
there is just wording - much like telephone costs.
Jim Elbrecht
wrote:
>Per Ron Peterson:
>>http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/115.htm shows the average electric
>>rate by state.
>
>Anybody know if those are the real numbers, or just what the
>utilities stated charges?
I'd bet my last dollar they are the 'stated' charges.
>
>e.g. My supplier might claim my rate is xx per kwhr, but when I
>divide the bottom line of the bill by kwhr, I might get yy per
>kwhr.
My xx & yy's go back a few years in an excel sheet. The closest
they've ever been was when Niagara Mohawk said it was 11.8cents- and
the calculation showed 12.47 cents. Then the PSC said National
Grid could buy Niagara Mohawk if they lowered the price per KwH. So
then I got a few bills where the stated price was as low as 7.139 &
the real price was 15.8cents.
Currently the stated price is 15.052, the real price is 16.388.[up
from July but lower than June]
Jim
Neon John
>Here (northern New York) my electric is .13028/kWh - but - delivery services
>are ,030799/kWh plus a 2.04082% surcharge on the delivery service plus
>basic delivery service (other than useage) of $16.21. The delivery services
>are over half my bill.
Take the bottom line dollar amount and divide that by the kWh that you used
and that is your true electric rate. From what you say, yours is going to be
close to the 30 cents a kWh that a friend in Manhattan pays.
>
>What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company is
>National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit - trying
>to do 'my part').
What part is that? New England is pretty thick with nuclear power so you can
pay the regular rate and get "clean" power without helping clutter up the
landscape with wind turbines.
Anyway, On the rural co-op I'm on now, the rate is just a smidgen under 9
cents. No other except state sales tax. Down in the city it's a penny less.
Gotta love that nuclear power (Sequoyah, Watts Bar and Browns Ferry all feed
this region.)
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
So you're a feminist... Isn't that cute!
Neon John
>Not as bad here in Atlanta. About .10/kWh averaging in delivery and
>other costs. A surcharge for going over 650kWh in the summer and a
>discount in the winter. Most people heat with natural gas which is a
>good bit cheaper but is subject to wild fluctuations, I've been adding
>solar thermal none the less.
Where are you getting power that cheap? In Cobb County over 15 years ago the
winter rate was higher than that and the summer rate even higher. I'm afraid
to quote a number, it's been so long but 14 cent/kWh is lingering in my mind.
>
> I can't help but think that the pain people feel at the pump is minor
>compared to heating a house in a cold climate with oil.
Yep. But people bitching at the gas pump makes for better idiot toob images.
In the mid-80s I lived in PA in one unit of an apartment house that I bought.
It had a big old belching central oil burner. The first cold month, it used
over $1000 worth of oil. I called a service guy, he did some measurements and
told me that it was running about 30% efficiency which was typical of an old
boiler like that and that there was nothing he could do for me.
What I did for myself was install individual gas fired boilers, one for each
apartment, and waved bye-bye to the oil truck. The tenants paid their own gas
bills (I bet some thermostats got set back a bit!) and mine never ran much
over $60.
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Jim Elbrecht
wrote:
>
>"Ann" <nntp...@epix.net> wrote in message
-snip-
>>
>> What is the basis of your dealer's decision that there has been a price
>> drop? You wrote last week that "right now" your dealer's "regular" price
>> was $4.99/gallon. That's conservatively $0.75 high compared to the
>> market-based regular price.
>
>Not in upstate NY it's not. Some places are charging over $5/gallon.
>
And some are charging less. The average for my area- Capital
District- is $4.55 for July according to
http://www.nyserda.org/energy_information/nyepc.asp
I'll call a few places tomorrow to see if I'm going to stick with my
old dealer or go on a will call basis.
My records show that the only year I would have saved anything at all
by accepting my dealer's 'lock-in' plan was last year. It would
have cost me $100 to join and I would have had to pay up front for a
couple hundred more gallons than I would have used, but I would have
saved $147 overall for the season.
For the 5 previous years it just would have tied up a couple grand and
not saved me anything as the price never reached the lock-in price.
This year he is offering, for $200, a 'lock-in' price of $4.79. But
I don't find out until sometime in the future how many gallons I'd be
contracting for. I use less than 400 gallons, so in effect he's
offering me oil at $5.29- and historically he requires payment for an
extra 50-100 gallons than I use]
I'm with Ann. I hope my dealer knows the oil business better than I
do. I *know* he is in the business to make money. So I suspect
he isn't trying to sell oil early cheaper than he'll be able to sell
it later.
I'm tempted to take the $200 he wants- buy a second tank- and just
have them both filled in September from the lowest bidder.
Jim
Ann
Well, you didn't consider the Southern Tier to be "upstate", so I looked
up the Syracuse price. What do you consider "upstate"?
Jeff
> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 22:39:39 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Not as bad here in Atlanta. About .10/kWh averaging in delivery and
>> other costs. A surcharge for going over 650kWh in the summer and a
>> discount in the winter. Most people heat with natural gas which is a
>> good bit cheaper but is subject to wild fluctuations, I've been adding
>> solar thermal none the less.
>
> Where are you getting power that cheap? In Cobb County over 15 years ago the
> winter rate was higher than that and the summer rate even higher. I'm afraid
> to quote a number, it's been so long but 14 cent/kWh is lingering in my mind.
Georgia Power. Southern Company.
They have the rates hidden, but I pay about $65 for 650 kWhrs. You
may have been on Cobb EMC.
>
>> I can't help but think that the pain people feel at the pump is minor
>> compared to heating a house in a cold climate with oil.
>
> Yep. But people bitching at the gas pump makes for better idiot toob images.
Yeah. Keeping gasoline high for a while is not so bad if it encourages
conservation. People are making really stupid choices about their SUVs
just to avoid the pump sticker shock. Most SUV owners are now upside
down the value has fallen so much.
It's not a very smart country we live in.
> In the mid-80s I lived in PA in one unit of an apartment house that I bought.
> It had a big old belching central oil burner. The first cold month, it used
> over $1000 worth of oil. I called a service guy, he did some measurements and
> told me that it was running about 30% efficiency which was typical of an old
> boiler like that and that there was nothing he could do for me.
>
> What I did for myself was install individual gas fired boilers, one for each
> apartment, and waved bye-bye to the oil truck. The tenants paid their own gas
> bills (I bet some thermostats got set back a bit!) and mine never ran much
> over $60.
Sounds like a good plan.
Jeff
h
JonquilJan
Jan
Learn something new every day
As long as you are learning, you are living
When you stop learning, you start dying
Ron Peterson <r...@shell.core.com> wrote in message
news:72ffc891-1ee7-4de1...@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
JonquilJan
Neon John <n...@never.com> wrote in message
news:4c9ob4ht4hd786msj...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 18:02:14 -0400, "JonquilJan" <war...@imcnet.net>
wrote:
>
>
> >Here (northern New York) my electric is .13028/kWh - but - delivery
services
> >are ,030799/kWh plus a 2.04082% surcharge on the delivery service plus
> >basic delivery service (other than useage) of $16.21. The delivery
services
> >are over half my bill.
>
> Take the bottom line dollar amount and divide that by the kWh that you
used
> and that is your true electric rate. From what you say, yours is going to
be
> close to the 30 cents a kWh that a friend in Manhattan pays.
That way - .2754/kWh for the Last bill.
> >
> >What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company
is
> >National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit -
trying
> >to do 'my part').
>
> What part is that? New England is pretty thick with nuclear power so you
can
> pay the regular rate and get "clean" power without helping clutter up the
> landscape with wind turbines.
Northern New York state.
JonquilJan
Ann
So, your "up" is East, not North. <g> Anyway, Jim E. posted the url for
the NYS webpage with the prices that I remembered seeing several years
ago. Be interesting to see what the August prices are.
BR
>> What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country?
>
> Philadelphia PA, Exelon. My June bill came to .164/kwhr
PP&L Residential customers are paying 0.092/KWH in the
Wilkes-Barre/Scranton PA area. This will go up to 0.12 to 0.15 per KWH
when rate caps go off in 2010.
--
Remove the TOS star ship captain to reply privately.
Neon John
>Neon John wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 22:39:39 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Not as bad here in Atlanta. About .10/kWh averaging in delivery and
>>> other costs. A surcharge for going over 650kWh in the summer and a
>>> discount in the winter. Most people heat with natural gas which is a
>>> good bit cheaper but is subject to wild fluctuations, I've been adding
>>> solar thermal none the less.
>>
>> Where are you getting power that cheap? In Cobb County over 15 years ago the
>> winter rate was higher than that and the summer rate even higher. I'm afraid
>> to quote a number, it's been so long but 14 cent/kWh is lingering in my mind.
>
> Georgia Power. Southern Company.
>
> They have the rates hidden, but I pay about $65 for 650 kWhrs. You
>may have been on Cobb EMC.
I was. I just couldn't remember the name. Do you get your power directly
from GaP or do you have a local utility? I knew that Cobb EMC was higher than
other parts of Atlanta but I didn't think that they were that high.
Do you have gas? I left just as they were "deregulating" (sic) gas. I heard
from friends still in Cobb county that their gas bills doubled. True with
you?
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Remember, amateurs made the Ark, professionals made the Titanic.
Jim Elbrecht
wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:02:33 -0400, "h" <tmc...@searchmachine.com>
>wrote:
-snip-
>>Not in upstate NY it's not. Some places are charging over $5/gallon.
>>
I think I'll change my comment to "Who? Where?". You keep saying
that NY has the highest taxes in the union- and it doesn't. Then you
say that upstate costs are higher than downstate, which is ridiculous.
You must live in a little bubble where everyone picks on you. I
challenge you to find me some >$5.00 oil in *your* upstate NY.
>
>And some are charging less. The average for my area- Capital
>District- is $4.55 for July according to
>http://www.nyserda.org/energy_information/nyepc.asp
>
>I'll call a few places tomorrow to see if I'm going to stick with my
>old dealer or go on a will call basis.
Looks like I'm going to 'will call'. My dealer is getting $4.25.
The lowest I found [4 calls] is $3.95. The others were $4.04 & $4.17.
All in the Albany/Schenectady, NY area.
Jim
Jeff
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 15:43:49 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>
>> Neon John wrote:
>>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 22:39:39 -0400, Jeff <jeff@spam_me_not.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Not as bad here in Atlanta. About .10/kWh averaging in delivery and
>>>> other costs. A surcharge for going over 650kWh in the summer and a
>>>> discount in the winter. Most people heat with natural gas which is a
>>>> good bit cheaper but is subject to wild fluctuations, I've been adding
>>>> solar thermal none the less.
>>> Where are you getting power that cheap? In Cobb County over 15 years ago the
>>> winter rate was higher than that and the summer rate even higher. I'm afraid
>>> to quote a number, it's been so long but 14 cent/kWh is lingering in my mind.
>> Georgia Power. Southern Company.
>>
>> They have the rates hidden, but I pay about $65 for 650 kWhrs. You
>> may have been on Cobb EMC.
>
> I was. I just couldn't remember the name. Do you get your power directly
> from GaP or do you have a local utility?
Direct. I think that is common, at least in Atlanta I think it is the
only choice.
I knew that Cobb EMC was higher than
> other parts of Atlanta but I didn't think that they were that high.
>
> Do you have gas? I left just as they were "deregulating" (sic) gas. I heard
> from friends still in Cobb county that their gas bills doubled. True with
> you?
I used to have gas! Deregulation sent the pricing through the roof (2
- 3 x or so) and added a delivery charge from the old utility. The
delivery charge is a three page calculation and you pay it even if you
use no gas. That pissed me off.
With that said, natural gas is much cheaper than heating oil. About
$1.40/therm + probably another .50/therm in delivery charges and the
usual several dollars in overhead costs. My guess is it's about 1/2 to
2/3 of what oil is.
I'm trending solar with spot heating by space heaters. I'll have a
120 SF of solar water up by winter and I've got 160 SF of air collector
on the south wall.
And, as you know, insulation is your best heating investment. At
least it was mine!
Jeff
Maren aka HiloBeads or PalmsEtc
> Thanks Ron - see my state (New York) is near the bottom.
>
> Jan
>
> Learn something new every day
> As long as you are learning, you are living
>
> news:72ffc891-1ee7-4de1...@k7g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 31, 5:02 pm, "JonquilJan" <war...@imcnet.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company
> is
> > National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit -
> trying
> > to do 'my part').
>
> rate by state.
>
> --
> Ron
right. It shows $0.269/kWh for us. Our last bill had $0.448.
Honest.
Maren, Hilo, HI
Larry Caldwell
@imcnet.net (JonquilJan) says...
> Here (northern New York) my electric is .13028/kWh - but - delivery services
> are ,030799/kWh plus a 2.04082% surcharge on the delivery service plus
> basic delivery service (other than useage) of $16.21. The delivery services
> are over half my bill.
> What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company is
> National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit - trying
> to do 'my part').
Here in Oregon we have cheap electricity, thanks to a bunch of 70 year
old hydro projects - the original renewable energy. We also have a
tiered rate system.
The first 525 kwh is $0.0345400/kwh
The second 525 kwh is $0.0410600/kwh
The third 525 kwh is $0.0508200/kwh
Basic charge is $7.50
Delivery charge is $0.0359600/kwh
State Tax is $0.0019900/kwh
The company is Pacific Power. They didn't get the rate increases they
asked for in Utah, so the word is that they are going to cut grid
maintenance and not pay overtime if there is a storm outage. They got
bought by Warren Buffet, who wants his 10% ROI. I suspect my cheap
electricity will be coming to an end pretty soon.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Matthew Beasley
"Larry Caldwell" <firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote in message
> Here in Oregon we have cheap electricity, thanks to a bunch of 70 year
> old hydro projects - the original renewable energy. We also have a
> tiered rate system.
>
> The first 525 kwh is $0.0345400/kwh
> The second 525 kwh is $0.0410600/kwh
> The third 525 kwh is $0.0508200/kwh
>
> Basic charge is $7.50
> Delivery charge is $0.0359600/kwh
> State Tax is $0.0019900/kwh
You only have that nonsense since you're serviced by an investor owned
utility. I'm on a co-op and we have the reverse. Use more power and the
price kWh drops.
Energy mizers are being subsidized HEAVILY by the other users of
electricity. My biggest beef with the tiered rate is that it does not
differentiate between energy source. A wasteful user of natural gas, oil or
propane will of course use less electricity than a heat pump user. But the
owner of the heat pump is more "environmentally frendly" than the others,
and that is the alleged goal of the tiered system.
> The company is Pacific Power. They didn't get the rate increases they
> asked for in Utah, so the word is that they are going to cut grid
> maintenance and not pay overtime if there is a storm outage. They got
> bought by Warren Buffet, who wants his 10% ROI. I suspect my cheap
> electricity will be coming to an end pretty soon.
Dump them and form a co-op..... I'm a free market guy, but a utility isn't
a free market. I figure that being a member of a co-op has more access to a
free market than any customer of an investor owned utility. Me and the
other members have a person who's job is to find the cheapest power he can.
And he's got a big block of purchasing to wield behind him. It puts us on a
much stronger negotiating position than any individual customer has.
The other nice part is that the co-ops, MUD's and PUD's are exempt from the
political shenanigans that the PUC tries to force upon us. We are our own
PUC, and when we vote, we vote for cheap reliable power as our first
consideration.
SMS
> In article <48badca3$0$7480$38ce...@news.westelcom.com>, ward39
> @imcnet.net (JonquilJan) says...
>
>> Here (northern New York) my electric is .13028/kWh - but - delivery services
>> are ,030799/kWh plus a 2.04082% surcharge on the delivery service plus
>> basic delivery service (other than useage) of $16.21. The delivery services
>> are over half my bill.
>
>> What is the situation on electric in other parts of the country? Company is
>> National Grid - and I opt in for wind energy (which adds just a bit - trying
>> to do 'my part').
>
> Here in Oregon we have cheap electricity, thanks to a bunch of 70 year
> old hydro projects - the original renewable energy. We also have a
> tiered rate system.
>
> The first 525 kwh is $0.0345400/kwh
> The second 525 kwh is $0.0410600/kwh
> The third 525 kwh is $0.0508200/kwh
Yeah, most utilities have this sort of tiered rate system for
residential use.
Also, TOU (time of use) can make a big difference here. In California,
solar systems make economic sense to the homeowner because you generate
the most electricity during the peak usage time, when the utility is
paying you the most for what you generate (a time of use meter is
required). Yet you can often modify your usage patterns to use more
electricity during off-peak.
Neon John
>Dump them and form a co-op..... I'm a free market guy, but a utility isn't
>a free market.
Want to go to the moon? Then build a rocket and go. That'd be about as easy
as forming a co-op in an area with existing infrastructure.
Co-ops are the product of the New Deal and REA. REA money paid for the
infrastructure and acquiring the right of ways. That money isn't available
now. Nor are the right of ways. REA ROWs were acquired long before an area
was built up and the government could and did use condemnation when necessary.
All the silly press aside, as a practical matter, that isn't possible today.
A co-op wouldn't save them any money in Larry's situation anyway, since it
would have to buy power from for-profit generators. Look at his delivery
charge. That would remain, at least in part, with a co-op, as the power has
to be delivered to the co-op's boundary.
Co-ops work best in places like here where the power is delivered by a public
utility - TVA - and passed through at cost plus operating expenses. A
well-run municipal utility can do it even cheaper. For example, the same TVA
power is about a cent a kWh cheaper in Cleveland (Cleveland Utilities, owned
by the city) than here under a Co-op.
I'm generally a free market guy but clearly electricity is one area where
public owned (government) utilities do it better. I love how commercial
utilities try to cloud the issue by calling themselves "publicly owned
utilities". TVA, BPA and the other government-owned utilities supply the
cheapest power in the nation, especially when judged by the amount of mark-up
over the cost of the inputs.
>The other nice part is that the co-ops, MUD's and PUD's are exempt from the
>political shenanigans that the PUC tries to force upon us. We are our own
>PUC, and when we vote, we vote for cheap reliable power as our first
>consideration.
>
Just out of curiosity, what Co-op are you with? Do they have a rate card
available on-line?
John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
It isn't Global Warming.... It's Jerry Falwell arriving in hell.
Matthew Beasley
> On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:58:50 -0700, "Matthew Beasley" <nob...@spam.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Dump them and form a co-op..... I'm a free market guy, but a utility
>>isn't
>>a free market.
>
> Want to go to the moon? Then build a rocket and go. That'd be about as
> easy
> as forming a co-op in an area with existing infrastructure.
OK, then form a PUD. It's been done here before. They condem the utility's
infastructure and issue bonds to pay off the payment to the IOU.
> A co-op wouldn't save them any money in Larry's situation anyway, since it
> would have to buy power from for-profit generators. Look at his delivery
> charge. That would remain, at least in part, with a co-op, as the power
> has
> to be delivered to the co-op's boundary.
Being a public utility would give them first tier access to BPA. (Larry is
also in BPA's territory.)
The other big benefit is far greater reliability. I'm at the edge of the
service territory, and PP&L serves my neighbors on the other side of the
valley. They're out FAR more often then my side of the valley. More than
1/2 of the line between town and me is now underground. They run a program
where they look at the most beneficial place to put in underground wires.
The lines are up and down repeatedly, since they don't bother where it's
going through or adjacent to pasture land, but stick it underground anywhere
the line is near trees. They are also adding an alternative route, so we
will have two routes to power to a junction 2 miles from me from two diverse
substations. Consumers has put in reclosers all along the route, PP&L is
fuse only the whole way.
>
> Co-ops work best in places like here where the power is delivered by a
> public
> utility - TVA - and passed through at cost plus operating expenses. A
> well-run municipal utility can do it even cheaper. For example, the same
> TVA
> power is about a cent a kWh cheaper in Cleveland (Cleveland Utilities,
> owned
> by the city) than here under a Co-op.
I've seen both ends on a municipal utility. If they run it to deliver power
and only deliver power, they're great. They also have only the cheapest
customers to service, those that are all packed together. Any other utility
has at least some rural residents with higher capital and upkeep costs.
OTOH, the city can treat it as a revenue stream and ream folks. I like the
idea that in a PUD / Co-op, the election is for the utility, and the utility
alone.
> Just out of curiosity, what Co-op are you with?
Consumer's Power
> Do they have a rate card
> available on-line?
Nope, but here it is for residential:
*Power Supply Charge:
All kwh = $0.03964/kwh
Distribution Charge:
0 - 1300 kwh = $0.03576/kwh
> 1300 kwh = $0.02776/kwh$8 meter charge for the first meter, $5 for
additional meters on the same account.I also have the commercial schedule at
home if you're interested.
Ann
<...>
Ordered home heating oil fill today @ 2.879 (10-day cash). I expect
the price will drop more before I would need to buy it, but decided that
would be pushing my luck too far.
Macuser
thousand. Wondering now if it was a good move. Has anybody been locked into
a high price for oil due to contracts?
"Thrift is sexy."
Kelly
> I converted from oil to natural gas last year, at a cost of several
> thousand. Wondering now if it was a good move. Has anybody been locked
> into a high price for oil due to contracts?
>
>
Kelly
BR
In most places, natural gas is still cheaper than oil.
tmc...@searchmachine.com
wrote:
>On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:02:33 -0400, "h" <tmcl...@searchmachine.com>
>wrote:
-snip-
>>Not in upstate NY it's not. Some places are charging over $5/gallon.
>I think I'll change my comment to "Who? Where?". You keep saying
>that NY has the highest taxes in the union- and it doesn't. Then you
>say that upstate costs are higher than downstate, which is ridiculous.
>You must live in a little bubble where everyone picks on you. I
>challenge you to find me some >$5.00 oil in *your* upstate NY.
You must be learning impaired. 9 of the top 10 property tax counties
in the nation are in NY. I happen to live in one of them. You
obviously don't.
http://www.syracuse.com/graphics/index.ssf/2008/04/new_york_counties_lead_us_in_p.html
PLONK!
Ron Peterson
> I converted from oil to natural gas last year, at a cost of several
It's a good move, natural gas should usually be cheaper than heating
oil. In addition, you don't need a storage tank and the furnace should
be more reliable.
I hope you got one of the new high efficiency models.
--
Ron
Ann
I live in rural PA, bordering NY's southern tier - and recall when those
numbers were reported on local TV. (The only stations we get are from
NY.) My response was "what's the big deal?" I pay about the same $ of my
property's FMV in RE taxes and receive fewer services. For example, the
state does the paved roads and policing. Another consideration is
partial RE tax rebates available to low/moderate income taxpayers, e.g.
IT-214. Also, PA's personal income tax doesn't have itemized deductions,
while NY's piggybacks on the 1040. One has to look at the whole tax
picture, not just the RE tax..
.
tmc...@searchmachine.com
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 13:36:59 -0800, tmclone wrote:
> > On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 13:53:18 -0400, Jim Elbrecht <elbre...@email.com>
> > wrote:
> >>On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:02:33 -0400, "h" <tmcl...@searchmachine.com> wrote:
> > -snip-
> >>>Not in upstate NY it's not. Some places are charging over $5/gallon.
>
> >>I think I'll change my comment to "Who? Where?". You keep saying
> >>that NY has the highest taxes in the union- and it doesn't. Then you say
> >>that upstate costs are higher than downstate, which is ridiculous. You
> >>must live in a little bubble where everyone picks on you. I challenge
> >>you to find me some >$5.00 oil in *your* upstate NY.
>
> > You must be learning impaired. 9 of the top 10 property tax counties in
> > the nation are in NY. I happen to live in one of them. You obviously
> > don't.
>
>
> > PLONK!
>
> I live in rural PA, bordering NY's southern tier - and recall when those
> numbers were reported on local TV. (The only stations we get are from
> NY.) My response was "what's the big deal?" I pay about the same $ of my
> property's FMV in RE taxes and receive fewer services. For example, the
> state does the paved roads and policing. Another consideration is
> partial RE tax rebates available to low/moderate income taxpayers, e.g.
> IT-214. Also, PA's personal income tax doesn't have itemized deductions,
> while NY's piggybacks on the 1040. One has to look at the whole tax
> picture, not just the RE tax..
>
>
Whatever. I pay $4800 taxes on a house assessed at $120k. I pay $6000
income taxes on an income of $20k. It all seems obscenely high to me.
Jim
>
[....]
> >
>
> Whatever. I pay $4800 taxes on a house assessed at $120k. I pay $6000
> income taxes on an income of $20k. It all seems obscenely high to me.
if it were not for the fact of how we endure a vile corrupt and
wasteful government consisting of govern-0-mites I'd most likely
never complain or express any real dissatisfaction concerning the
amount of tax I pay. however as reality is, I take the time every
year to read and study the tax code so as to make myself aware of
each provision allowing deductions and exemptions. I'll render no
more unto caesar than caesar's law requires.
when asked why I'm willing to endure the hardships of Farming as
well as spend twice the amount on Farming as I'd be required to
pay in local property tax my reply is always centered around who
gets to spend the money, me or the govern-0-mites. most people
not all but most do feel they can do a better job of spending
their money than someone else could. but then there are some
who love and worship their govern-0-mites...
Jim Elbrecht
wrote:
>On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 13:53:18 -0400, Jim Elbrecht <elbre...@email.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 12:02:33 -0400, "h" <tmcl...@searchmachine.com>
>>wrote:
>-snip-
>>>Not in upstate NY it's not. Some places are charging over $5/gallon.
>
>
>>I think I'll change my comment to "Who? Where?". You keep saying
>>that NY has the highest taxes in the union- and it doesn't. Then you
>>say that upstate costs are higher than downstate, which is ridiculous.
>>You must live in a little bubble where everyone picks on you. I
>>challenge you to find me some >$5.00 oil in *your* upstate NY.
>
>You must be learning impaired.
One of us might be- The question [posted 3 1/2 months ago] was
"where is there $5/gallon fuel oil?'.
> 9 of the top 10 property tax counties
>in the nation are in NY. I happen to live in one of them. You
>obviously don't.
>
>http://www.syracuse.com/graphics/index.ssf/2008/04/new_york_counties_lead_us_in_p.html
Actually I do-- sort of. The weasel word is "effective tax rate".
Here it is in the original report by the NY "Commission on tax
relief"--- "top ten in terms of property tax amounts and property
taxes *****as a percentage of income.**** "
http://www.state.ny.us/governor/press/press_0904082.html
Another problem I have with their numbers is that they are comparing
an "average tax" and an "average home"-- not doing the rates, then
averaging.
At any rate, I'm 3 counties below you on that list- and they say the
average house in Schenectady county is worth $145,000 and the average
tax is $3571. My house was just assessed last year and is worth
nearly twice that- $270K - and my property taxes are under $3000.
In the city of Schenectady, however- a city with *lots* of poor folks
and a budget still based on when it was booming there is a very high
*income to property tax* ratio.
>PLONK!
Yeah, right.
Jim
Ann
So? What matters for comparison purposes is the property's FMV and what
services are provided for your tax dollars.
> I pay $6000
> income taxes on an income of $20k.
Sure you do. (I was an AARP Tax-Aide volunteer tax preparer in NYS for a
season.)
> It all seems obscenely high to me.
So, move out of NYS.
clams_casino
If you are paying $6k total taxes on 20k, you are about average -
perhaps a bit better than average. Of course that's assuming federal &
state income, sales & property, excise taxes & FICA, etc..
Most pay about 30-33% on their total income, although the higher your
income, that percentage will likely drop below 30%.
Jim Elbrecht
wrote:
-snip-
>
>Whatever. I pay $4800 taxes on a house assessed at $120k. I pay $6000
>income taxes on an income of $20k. It all seems obscenely high to me.
Did you mean $200K?
In NY, the tax on a single person, claimed as a dependent on another
person's return was $797 last year.
The federal tax is less than $2000.
That's assuming you are living with your mom and are ineligible for
any credits.
I'll bet you're mistaken about your property taxes, too.
Just for giggles- how do you survive in the luxurious Onondaga county
on your $9000 after taxes income?
Jim
tmc...@searchmachine.com
top. Since the house is nearly paid for, I have almost no deductions.
According to the town, the "fair market value" of my home is $120k,
although I tried to sell it 3 years ago and couldn't even get $99k. No
one wants to live in this county and pay the obscene taxes. Services
are non-existent. We have water, but no sewer, no garbage, volunteer
fire and ambulance, paid police. They plow the roads and set speed
traps. That's about all we get for services. This is the boonies.
tmc...@searchmachine.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Umm, no, that's just state and fed. The property taxes are another
$4800 on top of the $6000. Weird part is that my income taxes weren't
much higher when I was making $45K a few years ago. It's being self-
employed that's screwing me.
tmc...@searchmachine.com
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:25:01 -0800 (PST), tmcl...@searchmachine.com
I'm not in Onondaga county. How could I be mistaken about my taxes? I
just got the receipt in the mail last month. My mother died years ago
in her 80s, jackass. When you don't owe anything other than a tiny
mortgage, $9k is just fine, thanks. It was much nicer when I made
$45k, but my business has been hurting in this economy, just like
everyone else's.
Ann
FICA is not "income tax". It's your payment into a
retirement/disability/etc fund, which you probably will get back in the
future. And you'd pay that no matter what state you lived in.
> According to the town, the "fair market value" of my home is $120k,
> although I tried to sell it 3 years ago and couldn't even get $99k.
Then you should appeal your assessment.
> No
> one wants to live in this county and pay the obscene taxes. Services are
> non-existent. We have water, but no sewer, no garbage, volunteer fire
> and ambulance, paid police. They plow the roads and set speed traps.
> That's about all we get for services. This is the boonies.
Not really the boonies if you live in a town and have water, police, and
and the town plows the roads. You'd be in the boonies if your (state)
police station was 15+ miles away. <g>
Agreed on trying to sell property, without taking back a mortgage.
clams_casino
>
>
>FICA is not "income tax". It's your payment into a
>retirement/disability/etc fund, which you probably will get back in the
>future. And you'd pay that no matter what state you lived in.
>
>
Since when? Even the federal government refers to it as a payroll tax
where they publish "tax rate" tables. Hint - there is no "fund". It's
used to pay current retirees with the excess going to pay for deficit
federal spending where there is a promise there will be workers paying
similar taxes in the future to pay for his retirement. Call it was it
is (as the government does) - it's a payroll tax.
I believe the OP was pointing out he was having to pay about 15% of
wages in social security due to being self employed plus the federal and
state income on top of the high NY property taxes.
I do, however, doubt he is paying $6k state, federal and social security
taxes on $20k gross income. Social security should be about $3k, but
after even with a single standard deduction, he likely only pays about
$1300 federal and perhaps $400 in state. He should not be paying more
than about $4700 in payroll taxes, although that is still nearly 1/4 of
his gross income. Of course, this assumes a short form - probably
unlikely for someone who is self employed, especially with a reported
$4800 potential deductions just in property taxes, so the income taxes
should actually be lower.
If he really is paying $6k on $20k, he really needs to get some help
with his taxes.
Ann
> Ann wrote:
>
>
>>
>>FICA is not "income tax". It's your payment into a
>>retirement/disability/etc fund, which you probably will get back in the
>>future. And you'd pay that no matter what state you lived in.
>>
> Since when? Even the federal government refers to it as a payroll tax
> where they publish "tax rate" tables.
"Income tax" is what's reported on a 1040.
> Hint - there is no "fund"
No, it's not sitting somewhere in a big ole pile of cash, any more than
money one deposits in a bank is.
> It's
> used to pay current retirees with the excess going to pay for deficit
> federal spending where there is a promise there will be workers paying
> similar taxes in the future to pay for his retirement. Call it was it is
> (as the government does) - it's a payroll tax.
The government calls it what I did. FICA. "Payroll tax" is a category.
> I believe the OP was pointing out he was having to pay about 15% of
> wages in social security due to being self employed plus the federal and
> state income on top of the high NY property taxes.
Yes. But that's not relevant to his complaint about alleged high NY RE
taxes.
> I do, however, doubt he is paying $6k state, federal and social security
> taxes on $20k gross income. Social security should be about $3k, but
> after even with a single standard deduction, he likely only pays about
> $1300 federal and perhaps $400 in state. He should not be paying more
> than about $4700 in payroll taxes, although that is still nearly 1/4 of
> his gross income. Of course, this assumes a short form - probably
> unlikely for someone who is self employed, especially with a reported
> $4800 potential deductions just in property taxes, so the income taxes
> should actually be lower.
>
> If he really is paying $6k on $20k, he really needs to get some help
> with his taxes.
Yes, that number does need to be itemized. It is possible he's including
the sales tax he collected from his customers.
Larry Caldwell
PeterG...@DrunkinClam.com (clams_casino) says...
> Ann wrote:
> >FICA is not "income tax". It's your payment into a
> >retirement/disability/etc fund, which you probably will get back in the
> >future. And you'd pay that no matter what state you lived in.
> Since when? Even the federal government refers to it as a payroll tax
> where they publish "tax rate" tables.
It's a payroll tax, only assessed against earned income. All other
income is exempt. For example, you don't pay FICA on interest, dividends
or rental income. For now. The system is going broke, so they have the
choice of reducing benefits, raising the rate, or broadening the tax
base. I'm betting they broaden the tax base, and make all income
subject to FICA.
Larry Caldwell
dcb2ca...@a12g2000pro.googlegroups.com>, tmc...@searchmachine.com
(tmc...@searchmachine.com) says...
> Umm, no, that's just state and fed. The property taxes are another
> $4800 on top of the $6000. Weird part is that my income taxes weren't
> much higher when I was making $45K a few years ago. It's being self-
> employed that's screwing me.
You really need to talk to a good accountant. The tax laws in the USA
are written to pamper small businesses. You should be paying hardly any
tax at all.
An accountant will probably get you incorporated. Once you are
incorporated, you can rent a room in your house to the corporation as an
office, for around $800 a month. You don't pay social security tax on
that $800, because it's not earned income. The tax code is full of
investment tax credits and accelerated depreciation schedules. A good
tax accountant will cost you about $400, and save you about $4000 of
that $6000 you are paying in state and federal tax.
Napoleon
<firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote:
>It's a payroll tax, only assessed against earned income. All other
>income is exempt. For example, you don't pay FICA on interest, dividends
>or rental income. For now. The system is going broke, so they have the
>choice of reducing benefits, raising the rate, or broadening the tax
>base. I'm betting they broaden the tax base, and make all income
>subject to FICA.
Oh no, they are going to raise the age you can collect SS. Everyone
knows that. See, it'll stay the same age until the baby boomers retire
and then whoop- up to 77-80 for us Xers. I can't believe people even
believe they will live to that retirement age, let alone in good
health to enjoy their SS savings in their "golden years."
That's why I don't participate in any IRA, 401K scams. I have my money
in liquid assets such as CDs or simple savings accounts. Yeah I don't
get all the measly tax benefits, but I sure can get at it when I want
to. The government's not getting its 40% if I want to close out a CD
and withdraw MY MONEY.
-N
Napoleon
wrote:
>Just for giggles- how do you survive in the luxurious Onondaga county
>on your $9000 after taxes income?
It's not a joke. I live in Onondaga county and there are MANY, MANY
people living on that wage (and even lower) after paying taxes to the
man. Welcome to America, a third-world country full of poor people.
And the OP was right about the property taxes here and the state
income taxes for the self-employed. Yes, I do plan on moving, but it's
going to be out the country, not just the state. Unless, that is I can
get me one of those "green jobs" from the messiah Obama.
-N
Jim
>
[....]
>
> income taxes for the self-employed.
very very few people actually understand how it is the self employed
do indeed pay an additional 15% income tax.
with all things being equal between the factory employed worker and
the self employed worker with both having a taxable income of 20,000
dollars the self employed person pays an additional 15% over and above
that of the factory worker.
I've always thought it was some power hungry power monger who having
been offended by their lack of control over the self employed decided
to compensate their feelings of inadequacy with an additional tax.
clams_casino
>
>That's why I don't participate in any IRA, 401K scams. I have my money
>in liquid assets such as CDs or simple savings accounts. Yeah I don't
>get all the measly tax benefits, but I sure can get at it when I want
>to. The government's not getting its 40% if I want to close out a CD
>and withdraw MY MONEY.
>
>-N
>
>
Since gains via Roth are tax free, isn't that a double advantage where
Roth money can be used to supplement SS, resulting in minimal, if any
tax on the SS money?
Furthermore, the government has already got their 40% if you used after
tax money to purchase that CD. All you've done is paid it in advance,
plus you are paying taxes on the gain and you'll be paying taxes on more
of your SS when your taxable interest increases your taxable income.
clams_casino
>Napoleon wrote:
>
>
>[....]
>
>
>>income taxes for the self-employed.
>>
>>
>
>very very few people actually understand how it is the self employed
>do indeed pay an additional 15% income tax.
>
>
Actually, it's an extra 7.5% plus the tax on income to earn that,
perhaps an additional 30% over the 7.5%.
(The additional 7.5% is paid using after tax money).
>with all things being equal between the factory employed worker and
>the self employed worker with both having a taxable income of 20,000
>dollars the self employed person pays an additional 15% over and above
>that of the factory worker.
>
>
Of course, the self employed has the advantages of more deductions,
such as use of car, home, etc.
>I've always thought it was some power hungry power monger who having
>been offended by their lack of control over the self employed decided
>to compensate their feelings of inadequacy with an additional tax.
>
And of course, all the self employed declare 100% of their income.
Ann
Plus, they never use their sales tax exemption when they buy items for
personal use. And always remit all the sales tax they always charge their
customers.
Jim Elbrecht
wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:00:30 -0500, Jim Elbrecht <elbr...@email.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Just for giggles- how do you survive in the luxurious Onondaga county
>>on your $9000 after taxes income?
>
>It's not a joke. I live in Onondaga county and there are MANY, MANY
>people living on that wage (and even lower) after paying taxes to the
>man. Welcome to America, a third-world country full of poor people.
I don't doubt there are loads of folks living on 20K. What I doubt
is that many of them are paying 54% of that in taxes.
>And the OP was right about the property taxes here and the state
>income taxes for the self-employed.
The OP is obviously talking out his butt. I'll give you a shot. Name
a tax NY imposes on the self-employed. [for that matter- the feds
don't impose any extra taxes either. The employer pays them whether
the employer is yourself or someone else.]
>Yes, I do plan on moving, but it's
>going to be out the country, not just the state. Unless, that is I can
>get me one of those "green jobs" from the messiah Obama.
What's with all this 'plan on' crap. Go for it. Saddest thing in
the world is some old fart saying 'if only I had. . . .".
Worst thing that can happen is that you'll learn that taxes are high
and life is tough all over. Best thing is that you'll find Shangri La
and live happily ever after. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
But what do I know? I like it here and I've lived in NY for 53 of
my 57 years.
Jim
The Real Bev
We have some supposedly tax-exempt bonds. You have to include your
tax-exempt income on the 1040 now, and it makes a difference in whether
or not and how much of your Social Security income is taxable. Doesn't
sound like "tax exempt" to me...
The bastards will ALWAYS cheat. Whatever they call it, if they can
ultimately throw you in jail if you don't pay it it's a tax.
--
Cheers, Bev
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Don't tax me. Don't tax thee. Tax that man behind the tree.
Larry Caldwell
666yes.net (Napoleon) says...
> Oh no, they are going to raise the age you can collect SS. Everyone
> knows that. See, it'll stay the same age until the baby boomers retire
> and then whoop- up to 77-80 for us Xers. I can't believe people even
> believe they will live to that retirement age, let alone in good
> health to enjoy their SS savings in their "golden years."
That's pretty well covered under "reducing benefits". However, the
boomers are not exempt. There is no way the system can provide benefits
for them under current levels. You are right about raising the
retirement age. Current age for full retirement is 66 years 4 months,
and I think it is scheduled to go to 70 or 72 over the next decade as
more boomers retire. That won't be enough.
Larry Caldwell
PeterG...@DrunkinClam.com (clams_casino) says...
> Furthermore, the government has already got their 40% if you used after
> tax money to purchase that CD.
If you are paying 40% of your income in taxes, you REALLY need to hire a
good accountant. You are obviously making over a quarter of a million a
year, so you can afford it.
Larry Caldwell
says...
> very very few people actually understand how it is the self employed
> do indeed pay an additional 15% income tax.
7.5%. And of course, the self-employed have access to hundreds of tax
breaks not available to wage earner. Anything sheltered by the business
is not taxable at all. The tax code is written to give businesses a
free ride.
It sounds like you guys are screwing yourselves blind. Talk to a good
tax accountant. Really. Get organized, and you get to keep your money.
Neon John
>Whatever. I pay $4800 taxes on a house assessed at $120k. I pay $6000
>income taxes on an income of $20k. It all seems obscenely high to me.
Holy sh*t! My 1000 sq ft cabin is appraised at $60,000 which is far too high
but this is a fishing resort. Anwhere else it would run in the $35 to $40k
range. Anyway, my property tax last year was $947.40. No state income tax.
I don't see how you exist in NY, much less live. I'm disabled (but not
"drawing") and my combined income this year will be under $10k, yet I can live
like a king. Well, if not a king, at least like I want to.
Here's a table of TN property taxes by county and city. Something to cry over
:-)
http://www.comptroller1.state.tn.us/PAnew/LR.asp?W=07
JOhn
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Sporadic E is the Earth's aluminum foil beanie for the 'global warming' sheep.
Ann
> Larry Caldwell wrote:
>
>> In article <F3W2l.49847$5P1....@newsfe13.iad>,
>> PeterG...@DrunkinClam.com (clams_casino) says...
>>> Ann wrote:
>>
>>> >FICA is not "income tax". It's your payment into a
>>> >retirement/disability/etc fund, which you probably will get back in
>>> >the future. And you'd pay that no matter what state you lived in.
>>
>>> Since when? Even the federal government refers to it as a payroll
>>> tax where they publish "tax rate" tables.
>>
>> It's a payroll tax, only assessed against earned income. All other
>> income is exempt. For example, you don't pay FICA on interest, dividends
>> or rental income. For now. The system is going broke, so they have the
>> choice of reducing benefits, raising the rate, or broadening the tax
>> base. I'm betting they broaden the tax base, and make all income
>> subject to FICA.
>
> We have some supposedly tax-exempt bonds. You have to include your
> tax-exempt income on the 1040 now, and it makes a difference in whether or
> not and how much of your Social Security income is taxable. Doesn't sound
> like "tax exempt" to me.
Tax-exempt income sometimes is counted when determining income level. My
state has a simple flat rate income tax. But there is an associated
lower-income tax-forgiveness program that depends on "total" income level
and number of children. Non-taxable income isn't taxed, but it is added to
the taxable income to determine "total" income.
> The bastards will ALWAYS cheat. Whatever they call it, if they can
> ultimately throw you in jail if you don't pay it it's a tax.
Your SS income is being taxed; not your bond interest. Whoever sold you
the bonds should have mentioned that there could be tax implications.
Ann
The *retirement* part of SS, with no changes to the current legislation,
is projected to be "solvent" until 2041 ... at which point benefits would
have to be reduced.
Brian Elfert
>7.5%. And of course, the self-employed have access to hundreds of tax
>breaks not available to wage earner. Anything sheltered by the business
>is not taxable at all. The tax code is written to give businesses a
>free ride.
Hmm, I must have missed that free ride when I ran a business. I paid
taxes just like any other American.
Now, A LOT of small business owners cheat on their taxes. The biggest
thing I see is personal use of business vehicles. You're supposed to note
the percentage the vehicle is used personally and not deduct that portion,
but a lot just use the vehicle for personal too and deduct everything.
A lot of small business owners will pay personal expenses through the
business to get the deduction. Big things like non-business computers and
personal insurance along with lots of small things like postage and office
supplies for personal use.
Jim
> Jim wrote:
> says...
>
> > very very few people actually understand how it is the self employed
> > do indeed pay an additional 15% income tax.
>
> 7.5%. And of course, the self-employed have access to hundreds of tax
> breaks not available to wage earner. Anything sheltered by the business
> is not taxable at all. The tax code is written to give businesses a
> free ride.
>
> It sounds like you guys are screwing yourselves blind. Talk to a good
> tax accountant. Really. Get organized, and you get to keep your money.
>
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98846,00.html
"SE tax rate. The self-employment tax rate is 15.3%. The rate consists
of two parts: 12.4% for social security (old-age, survivors, and disability
insurance) and 2.9% for Medicare (hospital insurance)."
clams_casino
But the total rate is 7.6% (after tax income) higher than a regular (non
self employed) worker.
clams_casino
>On Fri, 19 Dec 2008 02:25:01 -0800 (PST), tmc...@searchmachine.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>Whatever. I pay $4800 taxes on a house assessed at $120k. I pay $6000
>>income taxes on an income of $20k. It all seems obscenely high to me.
>>
>>
>
>Holy sh*t! My 1000 sq ft cabin is appraised at $60,000 which is far too high
>but this is a fishing resort. Anwhere else it would run in the $35 to $40k
>range. Anyway, my property tax last year was $947.40. No state income tax.
>
>I don't see how you exist in NY, much less live. I'm disabled (but not
>"drawing") and my combined income this year will be under $10k, yet I can live
>like a king. Well, if not a king, at least like I want to.
>
>Here's a table of TN property taxes by county and city. Something to cry over
>:-)
>
>http://www.comptroller1.state.tn.us/PAnew/LR.asp?W=07
>
>
>
I lived in TN - the 9.75% sales tax on most everything essentially made
up for an income tax, although the property taxes were agreeably
reasonable, assuming one was not concerned about having children in a
typical TN school system.
On the other hand, the property taxes were artificially low due to all
the added fees for garbage pickup, library usage, no fire department,
etc. I was even paying a double water bill simply because I was in the
county, plus fire insurance was fairly high due to not having a fire
department. Yes, the property taxes are relatively low in TN, but
certainly not as low as they might first appear.
Dave Garland
> The *retirement* part of SS, with no changes to the current legislation,
> is projected to be "solvent" until 2041 ... at which point benefits would
> have to be reduced.
And if they switch to charging tax on all income, instead of limiting
it to just the first $75K of "earned" income, it can go on forever.
Dave
Dave Garland
> very very few people actually understand how it is the self employed
> do indeed pay an additional 15% income tax.
That's actually an additional 7.5% (or thereabouts). Yeah, I'm
self-employed and very aware of it. The other half of FICA comes out
of people's paychecks so everybody pays that. (Except for high-income
people, who are exempt.)
Dave
clams_casino
There's something odd about the rates in that table. They do not appear
to be a typical mil rate (dollars per $1k assessment) where a
significant adjustment seems to be required compared with other areas..
For example, my home was accessed at $258k and taxed at $1632 or $6.33/
$1000, yet the table is showing a county tax rate of only 2.53 (also
as shown on my tax bill).
Oddly, they claimed a tax rate of 25% of the appraised value. The
2.53 rate appears to be per $100, at 25% of the appraised value ( 2.53
x 2580 x 0.25 = $1632) - NOT a mil rate.
Had I lived within the city limits with a significantly improved school
system, fire department, trash pickup, libraries, lower home insurance,
1/2 water bill, etc the tax would have been $3116 for a 12.1 mil rate,
but the table only shows 4.83 (4.83 x 2580 x 0.25 = $3116). A 12 mil
rate on full value is not that uncommon around the country.
Jim
I might need to clear this up a bit. first HI! Dave
when I sit down with super smart tax accountant we calculate what I own
by using the 15% number. from the web page I just tonight looked at I
[might] be using the number 15.3% this year. I am really not sure which
number we'll be using this year. one thing is certain, we'll be using
the number super smart tax accountant says to use.
second clarification on what I wrote earlier.
"with all things being equal between the factory employed worker and
the self employed worker with both having a taxable income of 20,000
dollars the self employed person pays an additional 15% over and above
that of the factory worker."
the above is in error and should have been written as follows:
with all things being equal between the factory employed worker and
the self employed worker with both having a taxable income of 20,000
dollars the self employed person pays an additional 7.5% or 7.6% over
and above that of the factory worker.
someone can always step up and further refine this 7.5% or 7.6%
Brian Elfert
>That's actually an additional 7.5% (or thereabouts). Yeah, I'm
>self-employed and very aware of it. The other half of FICA comes out
>of people's paychecks so everybody pays that. (Except for high-income
>people, who are exempt.)
High income people still pay Social Security taxes on income up to I think
$103,000 this year. The Medicare part of the tax has no income limit.
Dave Garland
> High income people still pay Social Security taxes on income up to I think
> $103,000 this year.
If it's "earned", that is, from punching the clock rather than from
interest, dividends, rental income, capital gains. Those latter
sources are exempt. And nothing on income above that amount. Make a
million bucks, pay SS on $103K (or less, depending on how you made the
money).
Dave
George
clams_casino
>>
>>
>>
> We pay 11.8 mils on full value just for the public schools tax.
TN doesn't typically get too concerned about public schools.