Living without a car
Take your pick
one month,
depending on how long my car takes to be fixed; it needs a lot of work
as a result
of an accident, plus some work to get out minor dents in the doors from
other people
banging their car doors into my car over the years.
As I get older, I am about 40, I find myself losing interest in driving
so I figured
that this time out with my car will be a good way for me to experiment
without having
a car always at my disposal. I live in NJ, but work FT in Philly. I
figure that if doing
without a car is not too big of a hassle, I will just sell my car after
its fixed and then
only rent a car when I absolutely need one; which is rare.
The apartment complex where I live has free bus transportation to/from
Philly
that runs several times each day. The bus can drop me off within two
miles of my office
and from there, its a short bus or SEPTA train ride. I also have two or
three other options
as far as commuting to work goes, such as using the NJ Transit bus or
the PATCO high
speed line.
My rough calculations are that my savings will be at least $125 just in
gas, bridge tolls,
and parking each month. This includes factoring in the cost of using
public transportation.
Saving that amount of money sounds appealing to me. I am sure that other
cost savings
would occur if I factored in the cost of not having to maintain my car,
make several more
months of car payments, and pay auto insurance.
My apartment is very conveniently located so I have access to a huge
supermarket,
two drug stores, my family doctor, some clothing stores, several
restaurants (including
a few that deliver), a Kmart, a 24 hour convience store, a Dunkin'
Donuts, a large
multiplex movie theater, all easily within one mile of my apartment. I
live in a fairly
safe area with lots of routes to various stores, etc. that are safe to
travel via bike or on
foot. The real appeal to not having to rely on a car so much is that it
would force me to
walk and ride my bike more; which I do far too little of now. My doctor
has also asked
me recently to lose weight and drop my cholesterole so I figured I sure
do need the
excercise and not having a car forces me to get that excercise. I am
also a fairly fast walker,
but the temptation of going places so much quicker in my car than on
foot has always
motivated me to drive instead of walk just about everywhere.
Oddly enough, my employer asked me to change my work hours so that I
come in two
hours later. I told my boss that I would think about it, but I said I
would probably not do
this unless it was mandated. I figure that coming in later would
actually be a good thing
because I would not have to rush to catch the bus every morning. I am
also live only about
seven miles from my office so in the worst case situation, I could
always take a cab to or
from work in an emergency if public transportation isn't available.
Most of my driving, as far as distance is concerned, is done for
pleasure such as going to
the beach and to visit friends. My friends can start visiting me more
often, rather than me
visiting them. I usually sleep over my either of my two closest friends'
houses when I visit
there because they live 40 miles from me and I tend to stay there pretty
late when I visit and
they both work in the same area where I live so I figure I could just
hitch a ride with them to
work if I visit, which is something I typically do anyway, but it is
usually me that drives them,
not the other way around because they take the train to work instead of
drive.
Sorry for rambling on, but I do have a question. I know that many
Americans are tied
to their cars. I have lived without a car before for a year when I just
got sick of paying the
expenses involved in it, but I lived much closer to my work than I do
now and my friends
also lived closer. I have also commuted to work from my current
apartment using public
transportation several times before and other than getting used to
following a regimented
schedule for the bus, it was not a big deal to me and I also have much
more computer
capability at home so I can do a lot of my work from home as the need
arrises. So I am
wondering if anyone else who lives in a similar situation, in a suburban
area outside a major
city, has given up owning a car in favor of walking and other modes of
transportation in order
to get around. So was the transition a big deal?
Actually, today is my first test of life without a car, even though its
Sunday. My parents are
coming by for dinner with my sister. They asked me to meet them at a
particular restaurant
which is about one mile from my apartment so I figured I would just walk
there; I have done
it several times before. After dinner, I have to walk half a mile out
of my way in order to pick
up some things at the neighborhood drug store. I am sure my sister (who
only lives about two
miles from me) or my parents who live in Philly would drive me where I
need to go, but I do
not want to start off by depending on friends and family to transport me
around.
Anyway, I do appreciate any comments you may have in doing without a
car, but please post
them to the newsgroup where you saw this message. I have munged my email
address so
replying to it via email will not work.
marian
things within walking distance of me are my kids school and my house.
Giving up my car would mean giving up grocery shopping while DH is at work,
piano lessons and soccer for the kids, and, worst of all, the public
library. Public transportation in our city is very expensive-- costs much
more than driving--and doesn't go many places I would need to go. Not to
mention that the nearest bus stop is a 20 min. walk from my house.
honest eddie
Quoting:
"I envy you the ability to go without a car. I dearly wish I
could. The only things within walking distance of me are my kids
school and my house. Giving up my car would mean giving up
grocery shopping while DH is at work, piano lessons and soccer
for the kids, and, worst of all, the public library."
Must you *do without* a car just because hubby drives to work?
Does he need the car (without an alternative available) during
his work period? How far is the commute?
Would it be possible for you to drive him to work, use the car
while he's working, and pick him up after work? Or, if one of
his colleagues lives not too far from you, and hours of work are
compatible, perhaps you can drive him to work in the morning, he
can check with the colleague as to whether he can ride home with
him (her), and let you know if you don't need to pick him up.
HTH Ed Baker eddb...@yahoo.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
essex
All I can say is that before you take this step you should (a) make a
REALISTIC estimate of how much walking and CARRYING you are willing to
do, no matter what the weather is like; (b) think seriously and
realistically about how you will feel about the inability to make
spontaneous, unplanned trips for fun or errands that cannot easily be
accomplished by pub trans; (c) how much you can or want to rely on
friends with cars every time you need to buy something that is too big
or too far away to walk/bus it, or every time you want to go out in the
evening or at the weekend; and (d) that you have the financial
wherewithal to buy a car and insurance when or if you change you mind
after selling your own car.
Your posting speaks to me because I was in a similar situation 10 years
ago. I had just moved to Brooklyn, quite close to subway lines that
easily connected me to my job and to all the attractions of Manhattan.
Parking and insurance in Bklyn were exorbitant, and I was enchanted with
city life, so I sold my car.
Big mistake.
Sure, I could walk to everything I needed on a day-to-day basis. Sure,
the exercise was nice. Then it rained. Then it snowed. Then the wind
chill fell to -20. And there I was, shlepping groceries, dry cleaning
and everything else over icy sidewalks in the wet and cold. Or the heat
and humidity -- take your pick (so to speak! :-). Cabs? In Brooklyn?
About as rare as they probably are in your suburb. Yes, you could get
them, but you had to call for one and wait. Not very convenient when
you're in a hurry to finish your errands. Anyway, it would seem dumb to
take a cab for a few blocks, so you tend to tough it out. It was an
adventure at first, but it got old pretty fast.
I got sick of not being able to just hop in the car and DRIVE someplace.
I couldn't take unplanned rides in the country (something that you
really miss when you live in a concrete jungle). When I decided to
replace my stereo ... what a hassle! Trying to get all those boxes in
the cab -- with, needless to say, no help from the impatient cabbie, and
with all of downtown Brooklyn for an audience -- was a nightmare. Of
course, I COULD have asked a friend to drive me, but then I would have
had to go when he wanted to go, not when I did.
In the meantime, the money that would have gone for car costs was going
to other stuff, so when I finally realized that my experiment had
failed, buying a car was a major financial setback.
There are indeed people who move into or back to the city, give up their
cars, and are happy as clams ... but:
(1) You don't live in the city. Not even in Philadelphia, which has
nowhere near as comprehensive and useful a public trans system as New
York. You live in a suburb, where everyone else (for all intents and
purposes) has a car. Believe it or not, King of Prussia, where I live,
has an extensive network of buses and trains, too, and many shopping
centers; but life here without a car would be pretty unpleasant.
(2) The people I knew in New York who didn't have cars and who did not
live geographically limited lives were fairly well-to-do. A last-minute
car rental? No prob. Cabs or car service EVERYWHERE? No prob.
High-priced delivery service from expensive local store (instead of
low-cost Big Box store at the edge of town)? No prob.
(3) Now that I think about it, I realize that most genuinely well-to-do
people, even in Manhattan, owned cars. Given the astonishing hassle and
expense of parking and insurance in Manh., that should tell you
something right there.
Your comments focus a lot on work -- think carefully about your non-work
life and how it would change if you didn't have a car. Think also about
whether the fact that you CAN'T do certain things anymore will bother
you, even if you hardly ever do them now. I'm not preaching (really ...
I'm not :-), but we didn't become a car-dependent society because of a
conspiracy by auto makers and real estate developers. Our society
depends on the car because most people find it the most convenient way
to live. No offense intended, but are you sure that they are wrong and
you are right?
In summary, not having a car means living with inconveniences, expenses
and limits that the rest of us don't have to worry about. You may or not
mind this, and your mileage may vary, no pun intended. Just be very sure
of what you do and leave yourself an out.
My turn to ramble ... sorry. I'm just hoping someone can learn from my
experience.
By the way, it looks like it's about to pour raining. How was that
one-mile walk to the restaurant? :-)
essex
Oops ... forgot one other important thing. If you plan to rely on rental
cars, be sure there is a rental office CLOSE to you. Anything more than
a half-mile or so will be too far to be convenient for regular use. Be
sure it is a reputable national outfit, so you don't get stuck in the
middle of nowhere with a broken-down car and no one to help. Be sure you
can live with having only one option of places to rent from. Be sure the
hours are convenient. Very few car rental places away from the airport
are open on Sunday or late in the evening.
I'll stop now. My work here is done. :-)
Take your pick
>
> Dear TYP,
>
> All I can say is that before you take this step you should (a) make a
> REALISTIC estimate of how much walking and CARRYING you are willing to
> do, no matter what the weather is like; (b) think seriously and
> realistically about how you will feel about the inability to make
> spontaneous, unplanned trips for fun or errands that cannot easily be
> accomplished by pub trans; (c) how much you can or want to rely on
> friends with cars every time you need to buy something that is too big
> or too far away to walk/bus it, or every time you want to go out in the
> evening or at the weekend; and (d) that you have the financial
> wherewithal to buy a car and insurance when or if you change you mind
> after selling your own car.
>
> Your posting speaks to me because I was in a similar situation 10 years
> ago. I had just moved to Brooklyn, quite close to subway lines that
> easily connected me to my job and to all the attractions of Manhattan.
> Parking and insurance in Bklyn were exorbitant, and I was enchanted with
> city life, so I sold my car.
>
> Big mistake.
[interesting ideas snipped for purpose of brevity]
> Your comments focus a lot on work -- think carefully about your non-work
> life and how it would change if you didn't have a car. Think also about
> whether the fact that you CAN'T do certain things anymore will bother
> you, even if you hardly ever do them now. I'm not preaching (really ...
> I'm not :-), but we didn't become a car-dependent society because of a
> conspiracy by auto makers and real estate developers. Our society
> depends on the car because most people find it the most convenient way
> to live. No offense intended, but are you sure that they are wrong and
> you are right?
>
> In summary, not having a car means living with inconveniences, expenses
> and limits that the rest of us don't have to worry about. You may or not
> mind this, and your mileage may vary, no pun intended. Just be very sure
> of what you do and leave yourself an out.
>
> My turn to ramble ... sorry. I'm just hoping someone can learn from my
> experience.
>
> By the way, it looks like it's about to pour raining. How was that
> one-mile walk to the restaurant? :-)
You made some excellent points. Thanks for sharing your experiences with
me. I guess I was not clear, but I did live in Center City Philadelphia
for one
year without a car. That was many years ago. My income is now quite
comfortable compared to that period in my life. Renting a car
occasionally
and/or taking a taxi is not an issue for me. The occasional cost of
doing
either of those things still weighs in favor of not having a car, just
from a
cost perspective. There's also a pretty well stocked Hertz agency only a
brief walk from my apartment and several major rental agencies located
near my
office in Philly so getting an occasional rental car is not a big deal
... except
maybe on a major holiday such as July 4th or Xmas where prior planning
will certainly be required.
For more years than I can remember, I have been driving around friends
and relatives so I know that they will not mind providing me with a ride
on occasion, especially since it means they can buy gas much cheaper
in my neighborhood than they can anywhere in Pennsylvania where most
of my friends and family live. Of course, I do not anticipate having to
rely
on anyone for rides often. I did go carless for a year in Philly and it
was
not a big deal, but my living circumstances were different.
I have walked many miles carrying luggage on more than a few occasions,
particularly when I travel in Europe and I do not want to bother dealing
with
driving in a foreign country. I guess my biggest concern is that it will
be a
pain to visit my parents, but I figure I can always just spend the night
there
and than go to work from there when I visit. My parents would be
ecstatic
at that idea!
As for the rain and cold, I guess I am a radical because that stuff does
not bother me much. That's what a warm coat and a rain parka are for.
Obviously, I prefer to walk in nice weather, but on those few days a
year
when I absolutely must travel during heavy rain, I will simply call a
cab or
my sister or one of my neighbors. I do know that my social life will
change
while I do not have my car, but not all change is adverse. My car has to
be
fixed anyway and I know its going to take at least a month before it
gets
fixed to my satisfaction so that is going to be my trial period of
carlessness.
If things work out well without using a car on a daily basis, I am going
to put
my car up for sale and cut back on my insurance policy to the bare
minimum
so I have just enough coverage to rent a car when I need one.
Thanks for your comments. Any other comments are welcome.
Gdinning
inner suburbia, then outer city without a car. It worked fine-- with some
serious commitment to the lifestyle. For example, I learned to pick one week's
groceries so they fit exactly into an old canvas boy scout knapsack
(interestingly, my diet became quite healthy). I took busses or walked. I
didn't do much except study, so it wasn't a big deal. I got a car when I was
26.
What it really did for me is give me a sharp and lasting perspective on how
much people let social conventions and external pressures drive their lives.
Gotta have a car. Gotta have two cars- wife and husband. Gotta have three
cars- wife, husband, high school kid. Gotta have nice big cars, like
everybody else. Boom, there's $10-20k/yr, so I guess the wife's gotta work to
pay for it. Gotta have a wide screen TV. Gotta have premium cable. Gotta
have...
I could not do it in the outer suburbs where I live now- no busses, no
sidewalks, and things too far apart. But my wife and I (she grew up in a small
european town and didn't need a car until 30) get by quite nicely on one
subcompact I paid cash for 8 years ago. We simply choose, with no feelings of
deprivation, to shape our lives to allow it. Deprivation, for me, would be a
long tortuous commute to a lucrative job I need to pay for the expensive car I
awarded myself because the commute was so bad. In retrospect, being car-less
was probably more educational than most of those classes I took.
Try it out for a month. Expand your horizons. Doesn't work? Get a car again.
Jym Dyer
> situation, in a suburban area outside a major city, has given
> up owning a car in favor of walking and other modes of
> transportation in order to get around. So was the transition
> a big deal?
=v= I started living car-free over a decade ago, and I was
living in the suburbs then. For me it was a big deal: an
overwhelming sense of relief and a feeling of freedom. The
feeling persists.
=v= It was a California suburb with a commuter rail system to
get me into the city. These tend to have more sprawl than
most of the suburbs in your area, but I did fine getting around
there by bike. For the first year of my car-free life, I had
housemates who got around by car, and we did the usual suburban
thing of getting a carful of groceries from the local big-box
discount outlet. I contemplated getting a trailer for this, but
then I found my own place and was able to carry groceries on my
bike rack. Much better food, too.
=v= I have a friend who lived car-free in a *much* more sprawled
California suburb, with no rail at all. He and his wife have
two kids, and did everything by bike. They use trailers a lot!
He's also done the math and figured out how much money they're
saving, pointing out that they can use the money to make a
better life for their kids.
=v= The main hassle has been and continues to be coordinating
social activities with people who get around by car. You just
have to plan ahead. You lose some spontaneity, but you gain
some just as well: you can't hop in the car and drive 300 miles
away for the weekend, but you can just hop on the bike and
breeze by traffic and not have to spend your night fretting
about parking.
<_Jym_>
Pat Meadows
On Sun, 06 Aug 2000 19:09:39 GMT, essex <ess...@home.com>
wrote:
When I've rented a car (Budget Rent a Car and a few
others) they would pick me up, and drive me home as needed,
at no extra cost. Maybe it's different in other places.
Pat
marian
ahead of my brain.
marian
am. He would never agree to letting me have the car all day.
honest eddie wrote:
> Marian:
>
> Quoting:
>
> "I envy you the ability to go without a car. I dearly wish I
> could. The only things within walking distance of me are my kids
> school and my house. Giving up my car would mean giving up
> grocery shopping while DH is at work, piano lessons and soccer
> for the kids, and, worst of all, the public library."
>
dickwyll
It does sound like you are well situated to live without a car.
May I suggest that you look into renting a car whenever you need one? That
is what I do. It is very convenient, hassle free and gives me, in a sense,
the best of both worlds. And the expense is minimal compared to actually
owning a car, a thought that I abhor. I am now a frequent renter with two
car companies, I receive terrific service and discounts.
Relaxed
news:398DBB46...@here.com...
> As I get older, I am about 40, I find myself losing interest
>in driving so I figured that this time out with my car will be
>a good way for me to experiment without having
> a car always at my disposal.
I think it is a great idea. I moved to a place where a car is not
necessary. The vast majority of what I need is within a one-mile distance.
I just leave my vehicle at home and walk or bike to work, according to my
mood. Next year, I am hoping to change my insurance to the low-cost
"limited-use" coverage. Since my truck is paid-for, I can't justify getting
rid of it. I do need its hauling capacity occasionally.
The change really affects your lifestyle. I've gotten to know more of
the people who live near me. I no longer consider walking in the rain (with
an umbrella) to be unwise. I'm healthier than before. I tend to buy
groceries for only one or two days at a time because I walk past the
supermarket on the way home from work, and I don't like hauling lots of
weight. I spend much less money on gas and tires and slightly more on shoes
and smaller pants.
Enjoy the slower pace.
earthnazi2
I'm sure you'll love living w/o the hassle & expense.
I've been doing just fine.....I get around by bike mostly.
not only is it free-but great excercise too !
Joan E. Smith
cents:
Get a good quality water resistant backpack that fits you properly. An
outdoors shop such as REI has experienced personnel. A daypack can run
1000 sq inches -- no sense getting one so big you can't carry it when
loaded.. Keep in it at times your essentials: a poncho, umbrella, bad
weather gear, whatever. (Pair of gloves for working on the bike and
toolkit!)
If you go the bike route, get good one in a bike shop & learn how to
maintain it: fix tires, spokes and break it down so it can go in the trunk
of a car. You can afford to buy quality considering the savings on the car.
It should only take you a matter of minutes to rip off the front wheel and
chain both wheels and the frame when you go into a store.
I have friends who are into biking in a big way. One lady did a group ride
cross-country bike trip -- or as she puts it -- a tour of church basements.
Good on you!
Joan
Julia F N Altshuler
It's relatively easy to get to shopping places but often difficult to
carry things home on one's back. That isn't an unsolvable problem, but
it will take some creativity. Consider a wheeled cart for groceries and
packages.
Friends are often glad to do the driving at first and reluctant to tell
you what a pain in the ass you're being later on. Be sure to pay back
every favor of a ride and be up front about it. If they do the driving,
you get the lunch. If they stop for gas while you're in the car, pay for
the whole fill-up now and then. (True that you're not benefitting from
the whole tank of gas, but your friend is paying for upkeep on the car,
insurance and the rest of the bother of having the car.)
Also consider your personal appearance when you arrive at appointments
after walking or bicycling there. This might have been my biggest
problem with not owning a car. There were plenty of places I could get to,
but I never looked fresh and well-groomed. It was almost like I needed to
carry a change of clothes in a backpack and then somehow magically pull
them out unrumpled even if I could find a place to change and wash up.
Storage and memory was a problem when I didn't have a car. As it is, I
can leave odd things that I need now and then in the car without having
to think about whether I'll need a blanket or a notebook or
antihistimines or my address book or a sweater or a change of shoes on
that particular day. The emergency pack goes neatly in a box in the
backseat of my car where I don't think about it until I need something.
As a rule I'm not a forgetful person, but it took a lot of organizing to
remember all the stuff I might need every day. It's easier with a car.
--Lia
--
C. Jones
>Love the ideas but DH is not frugal and doesn't really like it that I
>am. He would never agree to letting me have the car all day.
>
Why wouldn't he agree? We had one car when spouse worked and I was
staying at home with the kids. I drove him to work many a time. We
didn't have the 24-hour stores then, so it was drive him to work and
do errands during the day, or wait until the weekend when the stores
were crowded.
We also had the two car household for many years, but once again, we
have one car. He does not work, I do. He rarely is interested in the
60 mile round trip in order to have access to the car. The places he
wants to go are on the bus line, so he either walks or rides the bus.
I cannot imagine either of us not agreeing to let the other have the
car all day.
Carolyn
Robert Wisdom
: Thoughts on living without a car:
I have lived without a car for 15 years and find myself quite
happy. I too rent occasionally when I want to shop for large items or
visit distant friends.
I have a book called "Divorce Your Car" that has a lot of tips for
finding alternatives to car ownership. If you'd like to borrow it, I'd be
glad to mail it to your home or office. I'd like it back, but I won't be
crushed if I don't see it again. I loan things to *friends* who don't give
them back :-)
Robert
essex
Take your pick wrote:
> You made some excellent points. Thanks for sharing your experiences with
> me. I guess I was not clear, but I did live in Center City Philadelphia
> for one
> year without a car. That was many years ago. My income is now quite
> comfortable compared to that period in my life. Renting a car
> occasionally
> and/or taking a taxi is not an issue for me. The occasional cost of
> doing
> either of those things still weighs in favor of not having a car, just
> from a
> cost perspective.
I guess it depends on how often "occasional" is. Two car rentals per
month would equal the cost of car insurance (assuming that you have a
decent driving record). If you just stopped driving to work, you would
greatly reduce your car maintenance and gas expenses as well as your
insurance costs. Assuming that your car is paid for, the economic
trade-off is not that significant.
> There's also a pretty well stocked Hertz agency only a
> brief walk from my apartment and several major rental agencies located
> near my
> office in Philly so getting an occasional rental car is not a big deal
> ... except
> maybe on a major holiday such as July 4th or Xmas where prior planning
> will certainly be required.
You will also have to plan to return the car on time or pay for an extra
day, not to mention planning for pick-up and drop-off only when the
agency is open. Of course, it's possible to do ... but it does reduce
spontaneity. How much this matters to you is, obviously, the key
question to consider.
> For more years than I can remember, I have been driving around friends
> and relatives so I know that they will not mind providing me with a ride
> on occasion,
Famous last words if ever I heard them! :-)
>especially since it means they can buy gas much cheaper
> in my neighborhood than they can anywhere in Pennsylvania where most
> of my friends and family live. Of course, I do not anticipate having to
> rely
> on anyone for rides often. I did go carless for a year in Philly and it
> was
> not a big deal, but my living circumstances were different.
And you were younger and, probably, having a great time enjoying city
life. My experience -- and, again, YMMV -- is that things look different
at 40 than they did at 25, and inconveniences that we happily tolerated
as young whippersnappers are unacceptable as we approach <gack> middle
age. Sure we could *survive* without dishwashers or air conditioning,
but how many people would want to, if they had a choice?
>
> I have walked many miles carrying luggage on more than a few occasions,
> particularly when I travel in Europe and I do not want to bother dealing
> with
> driving in a foreign country.
Well ... but shlepping three bags of groceries home from the ShopRite in
90 degree heat is not quite as glamourous as backpacking through
Provence. Sorry for the sarcasm, but what's fun on vacation isn't
necessarily fun in real life.
I guess my biggest concern is that it will
> be a
> pain to visit my parents, but I figure I can always just spend the night
> there
> and than go to work from there when I visit. My parents would be
> ecstatic
> at that idea!
> As for the rain and cold, I guess I am a radical because that stuff does
> not bother me much. That's what a warm coat and a rain parka are for.
> Obviously, I prefer to walk in nice weather, but on those few days a
> year
> when I absolutely must travel during heavy rain, I will simply call a
> cab or
> my sister or one of my neighbors.
Sure, but now you can go anywhere, any time, without giving the weather
a second thought (except in snow, of course, this being Philadelphia).
Why add a limitation to your life if you don't have to?
>I do know that my social life will
> change
> while I do not have my car, but not all change is adverse. My car has to
> be
> fixed anyway and I know its going to take at least a month before it
> gets
> fixed to my satisfaction so that is going to be my trial period of
> carlessness.
Yes, this will be a good opportunity to test yourself.
> If things work out well without using a car on a daily basis, I am going
> to put
> my car up for sale and cut back on my insurance policy to the bare
> minimum
> so I have just enough coverage to rent a car when I need one.
Good luck, whatever your decision is. I don't mean to belittle your
plans ... I'm just having trouble figuring out the up side to this.
Personally, I can't imagine voluntarily putting such limitations on my
freedom of movement -- but that's me! By all means, write us in a while
and tell how things worked out.
James Andrews
: Oops ... forgot one other important thing. If you plan to rely on rental
: cars, be sure there is a rental office CLOSE to you. Anything more than
: a half-mile or so will be too far to be convenient for regular use.
A half mile is too inconvenient?
I really have to disagree here. Once you get used to walking places, and
you walk pretty briskly, a half-mile takes less than 10 minutes to walk.
Jas.
--
James Andrews
Philadelphia, PA
Seanette Blaylock
without a car":
> Sure we could *survive* without dishwashers or air conditioning,
>but how many people would want to, if they had a choice?
Well, I'm managing without either, and I really don't think a
dishwasher would be terribly practical for a two-person household. A/C
would be nice, though. I live in southern California. :-)
--
Seanette Blaylock
"You attribute perfect rationality to the whole of humanity, which has
to be one of the most misguided assumptions ever." - Alan Krueger in NANAE
[make obvious correction to address to send e-mail]
spam...@be.gone
won't be any outward sign of your net worth if you're jsut walking down
the street, or <gasp> hidden in a bus! You'll upset the balance of my
carefully created notion of suburban life.
I demand that you purchase another car, commensurate with (or in excess
of) your financial means, immediately.
--
...:::: Daniel T. Hauber // TRA, Inc. ::::...
-Dan H.
Lou
person household too, and by the end of the day sometimes there
are more dirty dishes, pots, pans, etc. than will fit in the
dishwasher. It's a rare day when the machine isn't chock-a-bloc
full. There's nothing "impractical" about a dishwasher in a two
person household. Assuming that food is actually prepared in
the house and consumed off real plates instead of those round
paper things.
As for air conditioning, every year we read of cases where
people die of the heat during the summer. That's not to say
that all, or even most, people couldn't survive a summer, but
air conditioning is not always a luxury.
Seanette Blaylock <seanette.spam...@impulse.net>
wrote:
>> Sure we could *survive* without dishwashers or air
conditioning,
>>but how many people would want to, if they had a choice?
>
>Well, I'm managing without either, and I really don't think a
>dishwasher would be terribly practical for a two-person
household. A/C
>would be nice, though. I live in southern California. :-)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Seanette Blaylock
a car":
>Good Lord, what do you eat and where do you eat it? We're a two
A lot of times, we eat either something out of the freezer or leftover
whatever [I have a tendency to make WAY too much :-)]. Even on days
when I do a major cooking spree, I still don't think I'd fill a
dishwasher, and I don't think letting the stuff sit there and petrify
for a few days is a great bet.
>person household too, and by the end of the day sometimes there
>are more dirty dishes, pots, pans, etc. than will fit in the
>dishwasher. It's a rare day when the machine isn't chock-a-bloc
>full. There's nothing "impractical" about a dishwasher in a two
>person household. Assuming that food is actually prepared in
>the house and consumed off real plates instead of those round
>paper things.
Well, if you think having your dishes sit around growing ickies for a
few days is practical, or if you think it's reasonable to run a 1/3
full [or less] load, that's your decision [and I do not use paper
plates, TYVM].
>As for air conditioning, every year we read of cases where
>people die of the heat during the summer. That's not to say
>that all, or even most, people couldn't survive a summer, but
>air conditioning is not always a luxury.
Did I say it WAS always a luxury? Sheesh, who put raw sewage in YOUR
coffee?
Lech K. Lesiak
> I seriously doubt this, given the costs of maintaining a car (e.g.,
> fuel, repairs and insurance). That said, the problem with public
> transportation is that it's (usually) slower, (usually) less
> convenient and less comfortable than taking your own private car.
I figure it costs me at least 2,000 bucks a year just to have my car
sitting in the garage. That would by a lot of bus passes and taxi rides.
Cheers,
Lech
Lou
>Well, if you think having your dishes sit around growing ickies
for a
>few days is practical, or if you think it's reasonable to run a
1/3
>full [or less] load, that's your decision [and I do not use
paper
>plates, TYVM].
No, I don't think either of those alternatives are practical. I
ask because over the years I've met various people who don't use
the dishwasher in their house or apartment because it's
not "practical".
Almost always the reasons for it not being practical come down
to:
Meals prepared and/or eaten out of the house. Often at least
one meal a day (usually lunch) is prepared by someone other than
a householder at a location somewhere other than the home, and
eaten outside the home as well. That's two meals worth of
dishes that don't have to be washed. If one or more members of
the household also turn out to not be breakfast eaters, you're
down to one meal a day that needs to be cleaned up after. Not
too surprising that it might take a couple of days to fill up a
dishwasher.
The other reason I've run across is individual idiosyncracy. For
instance, I worked with one woman who just wouldn't put pots and
pans in her dishwasher. Not because they wouldn't fit, or
because the machine wouldn't get them clean, but
just "because". No articulable reason. So after washing all
the pots and pans by hand it didn't make sense to put two plates
and two forks into the dishwasher.
I ask because in my house, there are two people who eat three
meals daily, all of which are prepared in the house, and except
for lunches during the workweek, eaten there as well. And by
the end of the day there's often more stuff than will fit in the
machine.
I ask because, if you'd be willing to share your secret(s), I
could possibly end up cutting down on the dishes enough to
squeeze everything in there and finally be able to put an end to
the neverending chore of doing dishes by hand. Thus freeing up
more time to spend on other tasks of daily living. Like laundry.
>Did I say it WAS always a luxury? Sheesh, who put raw sewage in
YOUR
>coffee?
Sheesh yourself - talk about taking remarks intended generally
as personal.
Pat Meadows
wrote:
>I guess it depends on how often "occasional" is. Two car rentals per
>month would equal the cost of car insurance (assuming that you have a
>decent driving record).
I think the original poster said he lived in NJ.
If so, that's a state with very high car insurance costs.
I'd think you could rent a car (week-end deals) twice a
month for a fair amount less than the cost of car insurance
in NJ, even though - if you have no car insurance of your
own - you have to pay that expensive insurance from the
rental firm.
Pat
Pat Meadows
N Altshuler) wrote:
>Thoughts on living without a car:
>
>It's relatively easy to get to shopping places but often difficult to
>carry things home on one's back. That isn't an unsolvable problem, but
>it will take some creativity. Consider a wheeled cart for groceries and
>packages.
Or a taxi.
Pat
Absinthe
are cerrtain "hotsposts" in NJ where crire rates, specifically
car theft, are extreemly high. These areas are where you pay
outrageous insurance rates. IMO, it still doesn't justify the
VERY high rates, but that is neither here nor there. If you
live in an area that isn't plagued, your rates will be a lot
lower.
no sig
--
Heather
aogi...@my-deja.com
Take your pick <no-email-re...@here.com> wrote:
Sounds like a realistic option for you.
Like you, I like driving much less as I've grown older.
If I could do without a car, I would. Still need it for some things
though.
...good luck.
-og
> Due to various circumstances, I will be without a car for
approximately
> one month,
> depending on how long my car takes to be fixed; it needs a lot of work
> as a result
> of an accident, plus some work to get out minor dents in the doors
from
> other people
> banging their car doors into my car over the years.
>
> As I get older, I am about 40, I find myself losing interest in
driving
> so I figured
> that this time out with my car will be a good way for me to experiment
> without having
> a car always at my disposal. I live in NJ, but work FT in Philly. I
> figure that if doing
> without a car is not too big of a hassle, I will just sell my car
after
> its fixed and then
> only rent a car when I absolutely need one; which is rare.
>
> The apartment complex where I live has free bus transportation to/from
> Philly
> that runs several times each day. The bus can drop me off within two
> miles of my office
> and from there, its a short bus or SEPTA train ride. I also have two
or
> three other options
> as far as commuting to work goes, such as using the NJ Transit bus or
> the PATCO high
> speed line.
>
> My rough calculations are that my savings will be at least $125 just
in
> gas, bridge tolls,
> and parking each month. This includes factoring in the cost of using
> public transportation.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
marian
the bus. It's about 3 miles. Even factoring in maintenance and
insurance, driving is cheaper.
Matt Conrad wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Aug 2000 13:50:44 -0400, marian <mv...@voyager.net> wrote:
>
> >Public transportation in our city is very expensive-- costs much
> >more than driving
>
> I seriously doubt this, given the costs of maintaining a car (e.g.,
> fuel, repairs and insurance). That said, the problem with public
> transportation is that it's (usually) slower, (usually) less
> convenient and less comfortable than taking your own private car.
>
> MWC
marian
Marc VanHeyningen
>A round trip to the public library for me and my two kids costs $6.00 on
>the bus. It's about 3 miles. Even factoring in maintenance and
>insurance, driving is cheaper.
Depends how much you use the car for other stuff.
If it's only 3 miles and your transit situation is typical, you could
probably walk nearly as fast as the bus would get you there. Bicycles
would be cheaper and faster than either, obviously, and if you're like
most households you already own some.
Chris Baldwin
> Like you, I like driving much less as I've grown older.
Me too. Recently, I changed jobs and my commute distance went from
10 miles to 25 miles. 10 miles was easily bikeable in a reasonable
amount of time. 25, however, is far easier, since I can bike to the
train station (2 miles) and take the train and then bike to work(1/2 mile).
And, in slightly less time than it takes to drive in traffic.
Having said all that, I am not about to give up my car. Could I live
without a car? Yes, quite easily, even though I live in sprawling San
Jose, CA. There are several bus lines near me, 3 grocery stores within
easy walking distance, the train and light rail stations are quite
close, and downtown and a large mall are right on a close bus line to
me. Why would I want to, tho? I can easily afford a car and it offers me
a lot of convenience.
I really see no reason why I should have to pick only one. I have a
car, I have a bike and I take the bus/train, whichever is the better choice
for the particular trip I'm about to make. Bike/train is the best choice
for commuting most days. I drive to the office about once every two weeks
for some random reason. I'm thinking about getting a motorcycle for those
trips that are too long for a bike, not accessable by train/bus (or where
the bus/train is ridiculously slow...train from San Jose to SF on the
weekends is nearly a two hour trip. Driving to SF and then parking by the
train station can be done in about 50min), but where I don't need the hauling
capacity of my EvilSUV. For Xmas shopping, I always take the bus to the
mall. The idea of fighting for parking is not what I consider fun.
A while ago, my neighbor asked me about what was wrong with my car
and when i was planning on getting it fixed because there is a derilict
vehicle ordinence here. He'd seen me biking off to work in the mornings.
After quite some effort, I did manage to convince him that I was, in fact,
riding my bike past a perfectly functional car every day. The idea of it
just boggled his mind.
dickwyll
>I guess it depends on how often "occasional" is. Two car rentals per
>month would equal the cost of car insurance (assuming that you have a
>decent driving record). If you just stopped driving to work, you would
>greatly reduce your car maintenance and gas expenses as well as your
>insurance costs. Assuming that your car is paid for, the economic
>trade-off is not that significant.
I rented a car on Saturday. Total cost with all taxes: $34.17. During the
week, it has sometimes gone up to $40.00. I have rented a car for a week
for as low at $170.00.
So 2 X $34.17 = $68.34 X 12 months = $820.00.
JoelnCaryn
>>month would equal the cost of car insurance (assuming that you have a
>>decent driving record).
>I rented a car on Saturday. Total cost with all taxes: $34.17.
<snip>
Of course it depends on what sort of car you are driving. Mine
costs $30/mo to insure, is paid off, and gets 28 mpg in the city,
so I keep it. I also keep the bike with panniers, and I bike or
walk to the store (1 mi. ea way) or to work (5 mi. ea way) several
times a week, integrating my workout, my commute, and my
shopping. Why not have access to all three options, plus a
monthly/annual bus pass if you're close to the bus routes?
--
Caryn (joelncaryn at aol dot com)
Take your pick
> happy. I too rent occasionally when I want to shop for large items or
> visit distant friends.
>
> I have a book called "Divorce Your Car" that has a lot of tips for
> finding alternatives to car ownership. If you'd like to borrow it, I'd be
> glad to mail it to your home or office. I'd like it back, but I won't be
> crushed if I don't see it again. I loan things to *friends* who don't give
> them back :-)
Robert, thanks for the offer of sharing your book with me. The book
sounds
very interesting. I just checked on Barnes & Noble's web site and the
book
is available there. I intend to buy a copy of it tomorrow.
Several people offered some very interesting ideas here. I am lucky that
my health is relatively good so walking a few miles per day is not a big
deal for me, even on cold days. Bike riding just doesn't appeal to me
although I do have a decent mountain bike and I may start using it more.
I stuffed a few items in a soft sided briefcase type thing that I use
when I teach. I put in my cell phone, copies of the relevant bus
schedules. The next time I walk past the local Kmart, I will get a
rain poncho and a few other emergency items to keep with me.
Today was my first business day in this car free mode. I had already
informed my employer that I will be late on an ongoing basis and stay
late to make up for it. That presented no problem for my employer. As
it turns out, I took the free shuttle bus into Philly and I was there
earlier than I expected so instead of using a SEPTA bus to get to my
office, I walked the two mile distance. The humidity was high so I
arrived
at work in a sweat. Since I work in a jeans and t-shirt kind of job,
its not important that I look flashy when I am at work. I went home
late so I missed the last free bus home so I ended up taking a NJ
transit bus which dropped me off about a mile from my apartment. The
bus driver told me there are more convenient buses, but I was in the
mood to walk so I just used that bus instead of waiting for the one
that stops right at the end of my street. I ended up having a nice
walk home along an area I have never seen before, except from a car
and I enjoyed the experience. I think tomorrow, I will take the other
bus home so I get dropped off closer to home. The bus driver was also
very polite and helpful when I informed him that I wanted to use the
bus to commute and that I needed his help in figuring out where I
needed to go. He was very helpful in giving me info and the bus was
much better than the ones that SEPTA uses. The NJ transit buses are
more like those Greyhound buses that take people on long trips.
I intend to stock up my office with a pair or two of pants, shirts,
some soap and shampoo and such so if I end up staying too late to go
home safely, I will just sack out in my office which I have done before
during crisis mode situations. Fortunately, that rarely happens.
I know its too soon to say for sure, but thus far, I do not miss my car.
If my carless experiment works out, I do intend to treat myself to
renting one of Hertz's fanciest cars during the holiday season so I can
finish up buying Xmas gifts, go to parties, and so on. Since I still
have about 30 more monthly payments to make on my auto loan, the idea
of selling the car and retiring that loan (even if it means a short-term
financial loss) is looking more and more appealing. I can use the extra
$400 per month for things I enjoy such as moving into a larger apartment
or maybe taking another trip to Europe in a few months.
In fact, my mom called me tonight to say that she will miss our weekly
dinner outings. Usually once a week, I take my mother out for dinner. I
also
offer to take my dad, but he usually declines or is busy with other
things.
My mom said she does not understand what we will do for dinner. I told
her that she can help motivate me to walk more when I visit her and in
turn, I will motivate her to walk. We will simply walk to one of several
restaurants in my parents' neighborhood for dinner instead of driving.
For
my mom, walking is a big deal because she's a semi-invalid, but I think
she
is not able to walk far simply because for too long she drove everywhere
she needed to go and let her health suffer as a result. I do not intend
to
make that same mistake. My mom actually seemed to like my idea of my
pushing
her to walk more, but if she balks, we'll just do takeout or she will
have
to cook dinner for us at home and I told her I would simply spend the
night
there and take the bus to my office the next morning since walking from
there to work, even partially, isn't practical. I also found out today
that my employer either subsidizes the cost of bus fair or has some kind
of tax deduction for using public transportation. I have to get more
info
on that issue though.
Thanks for all your helpful suggestions everyone!
marian
discounted.
Matt Conrad wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:33:13 -0400, marian <mv...@voyager.net> wrote:
>
> >A round trip to the public library for me and my two kids costs $6.00 on
> >the bus. It's about 3 miles. Even factoring in maintenance and
> >insurance, driving is cheaper.
>
> Is $1 the cash fare for a one-way trip? If you were a regular transit
> rider, you'd probably purchase a monthly pass and save a significant
> amount of money. Again, cars have their advantages (e.g., time,
> comfort, privacy and convenience), but I seriously doubt that cost is
> one of them.
>
> MWC
vm
an old old car. It is quite reliable, but not for any long
trips. It has been paid for for the past 12 years. Bought
it brand new 15 years ago. Because I'm middle aged, the
insurance is around $300. per year (minimum coverage). I
can well afford a new luxury car, but keep asking myself,
why? I live in jersey, work in philly. Why would I want to
put a brand new car in one of those Patco parking spots, or
worse yet, on philly's streets/parking garages, just to get
all scratched up. My old car has scratches, but who cares.
The hub caps have been stolen. I do sometimes feel that
people look at me like I'm some poor crummy person when I
pull up in my 'beat-mobile'. Maybe I'm the only one that
feels that way. Also, when I go any long distance,
vacations, day trips, I do rent cars, which is really cool,
I like to rent mid-size luxury or mini vans. All in all, I
know I've saved a lot of money keeping the 'beat-mobile',
but I also feel that I've helped Mother Earth by not adding
to the junk yards. I haven't (as of yet) bought into the
car advertising that a car will make me more of a person.
Thanks for listening to me ramble on. VM.
Soul Surgeon
stress involved.
I live close to work and a grocery store. Besides that, I don't date,
have almost no social life, it helps me stay totally isolated, but
certain things just don't get done and my aging relatives don't get
visited.
music...@somewhere.com
I am married and don't drive, never had my license. I can't drive because
of seizures. My DH rents a car a couple of times per month (if necessary)
to pick up his daughter who lives out of town.
Cheri
I'm Cheri. I don't have the money for a car because I'm on
disability. My home is located half a block behind a grocery store and
on the bus route. Also, I qualify for a door to door van service for the
disabled, which I use when it's too inconvenient to use the bus for
whatever reason. I've only needed the taxi a couple times.
Cheri
Glad to know you
Cheri
be a viable option for personal use? You may not want to use these
things to go to and from work, but, they'd come in handy for other
Cheri
home. I don't get enough dishes and pots and pans dirty to justify using
a dishwasher anyway.
My mother has a dishwasher but still washes dishes and pots and pans by
hand. She cooks for herself for all meals. She doesn't get enough dishes
dirty to justify using the dishwasher, either.
I live in Florida and summers get hot and humid. I use the air
conditioner all the time during the summer. I have a couple medical
conditions and have a hard time with the heat and humidity. I was even
born and raised and hope to die in Florida.
Cheri
grocery store. I took the bus to the grocery store and a taxi home. It'd
take three hours for a taxi to show up, but, I finally got home. I
started buying the bulk of my groceries once a month so I didn't have to
go through the expense and hassle of waiting three hours for a taxi.
Boston
Here's my take: This is more of a lifestyle choice than a
financial one.
I've got quite a bit of experience living without cars, and I
currently live, carless by choice, on the outskirts of Boston.
I spend just about the same amount of money on taxis, bus,
subway, rental cars as I would on a car. You'd be surprised how
non-car expenses add up--especially if you are not willing to
impose on others or to give up things you like to do.
And going carless forces some bizarre calculations. Such as,
imagine that you want to attend a friend's party across town.
Even if you get a ride one way, this event would cost you $25 in
cab fees. Is it worth it? No, maybe not. But at the same time,
if you pay for car insurance and upkeep when you do not need the
car much, you are in effect paying similar amounts of money to
get to such social events you attend. But if you have a car,
you don't think about it that way.
When I sold my car, I promised myself I would not give up events
I would like to attend--even if their incremental cost seemed
unreasonable. My philosophy was that, as long as I spend less
than or equal to what I would spend on a car, it's fine. I have
pretty much kept to this, but sometimes it does feel odd to
shell out a giant amount of money for a minor event, such as a
low-key potluck dinner or something.
However, I love not having a car for reasons that have nothing
to do with money. I don't need to shovel it out of the snow in
the winter. I can get some great reading done on the bus. And I
don't have to go get the oil changed, etc.
Two other practical thoughts 1. If you decide to keep your car
but take the bus to work, you might be able to get a discount on
your insurance. 2. If you get rid of the car, you might be able
to ditch the insurance entirely. There are many no-annual fee
credit cards available that automatically cover the
astronomically high collision insurance offered at rental
windows. And many states (not sure about pa/nj) require car
rental companies to include standard liability insurance.
--Boston
ameijers
Maybe going from shiny fancy new car to walking would save money. But a
reliable beater isnt that expensive, to buy or insure, and it sure is
convenient. And if it get trashed, no big loss. For those of us here in
'flyover country', going carless is not a realistic option. I'll never make
monthly payments on a car, but a 3k beater, and 500 a year for liability,
fits okay in the budget. I've NEVER spent more than 1200 a year on a car,
gas excluded. Your employer is awful understanding- most of us, even with
flextime, have a small window to hit, and we have to be presentable. I don't
have the TIME to spend an hour each way on bus, with transfers, vs. 10
minutes each way by car. As I enter the second half of life, according to
the acturial tables, I value MY time more and more. Walk in the woods? Sure.
Walk thru a crappy neighborhood in bad weather? Not as long as I have a
cashflow.
aem sends....
dickwyll <dick...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:8mnoj1$d...@dispatch.concentric.net...
>
>
> >I guess it depends on how often "occasional" is. Two car rentals per
> >month would equal the cost of car insurance (assuming that you have a
Jeremy
> I ask because, if you'd be willing to share your secret(s), I
> could possibly end up cutting down on the dishes enough to
> squeeze everything in there and finally be able to put an end to
> the neverending chore of doing dishes by hand. Thus freeing up
> more time to spend on other tasks of daily living. Like laundry.
I fill the dishwasher making and eating dinner.
But, I see this is crossposted to misc.consumers.frugal-living.
Frugal, I ain't.
--
Jeremy | jer...@exit109.com
j-la...@neiu.edu
>>I guess it depends on how often "occasional" is. Two car rentals per
>>month would equal the cost of car insurance (assuming that you have a
>>decent driving record). If you just stopped driving to work, you would
>>greatly reduce your car maintenance and gas expenses as well as your
>>insurance costs. Assuming that your car is paid for, the economic
>>trade-off is not that significant.
>
>
>I rented a car on Saturday. Total cost with all taxes: $34.17. During the
>week, it has sometimes gone up to $40.00. I have rented a car for a week
>for as low at $170.00.
>
>So 2 X $34.17 = $68.34 X 12 months = $820.00.
>
Gee! And my annual insurance on a 15-yr-old car, alone, is $860!
(With a very decent driving racord -- Harrunph.)
I can't imagine where the earlier poster got his/her rental figures.
Take your pick
>
> I got rid of my car in '95 & have'nt owned one since....
> I'm sure you'll love living w/o the hassle & expense.
>
> I've been doing just fine.....I get around by bike mostly.
> not only is it free-but great excercise too !
Thanks. I am still uncertain about not keeping my car, but
while it is being repaired, I have not experienced any great
inconveniences. Most importantly, I am walking a hell of a
lot more than I used to and I figure that if I can endure
walking two miles in this oppressive humidity, I will probably
be fine for other types of weather, except for the coldest
and rainy days, in which case, I will simply work from home.
Just tonight, I ended up arriving home at around 5:45 and
I spent much less $ to commute today than I do when I drive
to/from work. After dinner, I went out for a walk with a
neighbor for a couple of hours and he offered to take me
grocery shopping once a week when he goes shopping. That
sounds good to me! I live in a pretty nice community where
a lot of the neighbors know one another. Actually, just
this morning, while some of us were waiting in the lobby
of my apartment building for the free shuttle into Philly,
one lady seemed to be in a rush so she decided to drive
the mile or two to the nearest PATCO high speed line depot.
I hitched a ride there with her and got to work earlier
than I had scheduled.
Next weekend will be a good test because I have to work
on a special project and I have to do it in my office.
There's no free shuttle bus on the weekends so I am making
other arrangements. So far, I am actually having fun not
driving and I am seeing things in my neighborhood that I
really have not noticed in the four years I have lived here.
I also discovered that some attractive woman commute to
work on the PATCO high speed line and the Broad Street
subway. Hmmm! For a single guy who spends the majority of
my time working, maybe I will make some friends through
my daily commutes to and from work.
Seanette Blaylock
Living without a car":
>Gee! And my annual insurance on a 15-yr-old car, alone, is $860!
>(With a very decent driving racord -- Harrunph.)
>I can't imagine where the earlier poster got his/her rental figures.
For two drivers [primary driver does have two tickets in the last
three years] of a 1994 Tempo, with collision, comprehensive, etc.,
about 2500 miles/month, we're paying $1088/year at current rates.
--
Seanette Blaylock
"You attribute perfect rationality to the whole of humanity, which has
to be one of the most misguided assumptions ever." - Alan Krueger in NANAE
[make obvious correction to address to send e-mail]
Joseph Minarik
ameijers <amei...@mailhost.kal.ameritech.net> wrote:
>Man, insurance must be expensive where you folks live.
Get near any major metropolitan area and your insurance rates will
rise. New Jersey has one of, if not the highest overall rates
in the country, which they're quite vocal about. Unfortunately,
we Philadelphians and I'm sure the New Yorkers don't think they're
_that_ high in comparison. :-)
>Maybe going from shiny fancy new car to walking would save money. But a
>reliable beater isnt that expensive, to buy or insure, and it sure is
>convenient. And if it get trashed, no big loss. For those of us here in
>'flyover country', going carless is not a realistic option.
Being force fed 'Little House on the Prarie' as a kid, I thought
all _country_ people walked. When I went out to visit my now
current spouse, I quickly learned country people drive _everywhere_.
And at least in Iowa, they'll drive two blocks instead of walking.
City folks, esp. in centercity/downtown areas, walk...and walk alot.
Very quickly.
>I'll never make
>monthly payments on a car, but a 3k beater, and 500 a year for liability,
>fits okay in the budget. I've NEVER spent more than 1200 a year on a car,
>gas excluded.
My wife's insurance was $26.00 a month on an old 77 4 on the floor
Ford Granada...we'd still have the beast excepting for the fact
that the gosh darned farmer who owned it before she did decided
to just cut the catalytic coverter off the car and put in a straight
pipe. There seems to be little to no enforcement of environmental
laws in the areas which grow lots of our food. :-)
>Your employer is awful understanding- most of us, even with
>flextime, have a small window to hit, and we have to be presentable.
Become a programmer....you might not even have to shower. :-)
>As I enter the second half of life, according to
>the acturial tables, I value MY time more and more. Walk in the woods? Sure.
>Walk thru a crappy neighborhood in bad weather? Not as long as I have a
>cashflow.
Depends on your neighborhood. Walking through center city philadelphia
is a pleasant experience, except when there is/are:
1) Thousands of republicans not spending enough money! :-)
2) Hundreds of protesters not making any point.
3) 92 degree heat/92% relative humidity.
Besides, walking _after_ work can be quite refreshing as you can use the walk
to physically burn off stress and mentally transition from work mode.
Different perspectives, different lifestyles.
-Joe
danielk...@my-deja.com
> If so, that's a state with very high car insurance costs.
> I'd think you could rent a car (week-end deals) twice a
> month for a fair amount less than the cost of car insurance
> in NJ, even though - if you have no car insurance of your
> own - you have to pay that expensive insurance from the
> rental firm.
It's fairly easy to get a free credit card that gives you car rental
insurance coverage for free.
-Dan
Pamela
think seriously about it first, as it sounds like you have.
My fiance and I often talk about how we wished we lived in an
area where cars weren't necessary (i.e. New York City) - but our
city is far too sprawling and spread out to accommodate it here.
I'd love to walk/bike everywhere!
susanb
Essex had some very thoughtful comments on the con side of this
argument, and I think it's important that the original poster
think long and hard about the situation, but I think that Take
Your Pick is in an excellent position at the moment.
Trying a car-free lifestyle out for a month while yours is in
the shop is a stellar idea. If Essex is right and there are
things that haven't been fully considered, the dry run will
certainly point them out.
However, if Take Your Pick finds being car free for a month to
be pretty nice, then I think it would be great to just go for
it. From the details mentioned, the situation sounds perfect.
From experience, if one does decide to go car-free, I have a
bunch of suggestions:
Invest in excellent lightweight rain/cold weather gear. Walking
or biking in the rain is not nearly so big a deal as most people
think when one is properly dresssed. A lot of people cringe at
the prices of really good technical gear, but the stuff lasts
forever and won't let you down. In the long run, it's a better
value. Brands to try include Marmot, Sierra Designs, Solstice
if you can find it, REI, and North Face (though I wouldn't buy
NF gear at full price). Your local REI or other outfitter
should be able to help you choose.
Invest in excellent lightweight luggage. Someone else
recommended getting a good daypack...I second that
wholeheartedly. Check out Dana Designs - they're practically
bulletproof, though Dana himself left after K2 bought the
company. Also, think about waterproof panniers for your bike -
Arkel in Quebec makes damned fine ones that are guaranteed
forever, and Ortleib is a recognized leader. Also consider a
trailer for your bike, to haul groceries and the larger items
Essex mentioned would be difficult to manage on foot. Burley
makes some great ones, as does YAK (maker of the BOB line of
trailers).
Find a support group. There are hundreds of regional bicycling
groups (doubtless your area has its share) and these groups
usually have disproportionate representation of car-free
lifestylists. It's often nice to have face-to-face contact with
others who support cycling and car-free living. Also, there are
gazillions of choices of newsgroups and bulletin boards
regarding cycling and car-free living. I can highly recommend
the recumbent newsgroup as a friendly, thoughtful forum where
all are welcome and people of your Take Your Pick's age group
are well represented. Car-free living is an occasional topic
there.
Consider a scooter. It sounds a little silly, probably, but
there is a reason these things are all the rage. An inexpensive
push-scooter gets you all the exercise of walking (and then
some), plus you can get to moderate-distance places easier.
It's a fantastic middle-ground between walking and cycling. My
partner, since getting his scooter, has been actively looking
for errands to run on it. Added bonus...everybody thinks you're
cool! =)
Consider upgrading your bike. It still costs *way* less than
owning a car, and having a really good bike can get you out on
the road more than any other factor. For comfort, I highly
recommend looking at recumbent bikes. They don't have a good
reputation with aggressive 20- and 30-something Type A roadies,
but most everyone with some balance or a little more maturity
recognizes the amazing difference in comfort and in
performance. Any bicycle is only as good as the motor (that's
you), but recumbents have some undeniable design superiorities.
Again, check out the recumbent newsgroup for some testimonials.
You might also want to think about a trike, with which you can
pull a lot more weight and don't have to worry about stability.
Trikes come in both upright and recumbent designs.
I guess that was a lot more than two cents...
susan
David Meyers
[Newsgroups: line snipped. I'm not a big fan of
cross-posting, so only the consumers newsgroups]
susanb <susanbarro...@yahoo.com.invalid> writes:
> Invest in excellent lightweight rain/cold weather gear. Walking
...
> value. Brands to try include Marmot, Sierra Designs, Solstice
> if you can find it, REI, and North Face (though I wouldn't buy
> NF gear at full price). Your local REI or other outfitter
> should be able to help you choose.
Quick plug for REI -- If you spend the $10 to become
a member (that's $10 - once - for a lifetime membership!),
you get a rebate based on your purchases each year. Usually
it's on the order of 10%. While the stuff there isn't
usually cheap, if you are going to buy stuff there, do
so in such a way to get a little back.
> wholeheartedly. Check out Dana Designs - they're practically
> bulletproof, though Dana himself left after K2 bought the
Oh, yeah, the other thing is that REI has their own
store brand of a lot of things which is comparable in
quality to the Dana stuff, but quite a bit cheaper.
Dana stuff is really top-notch -- and expensive.
> Consider a scooter. It sounds a little silly, probably, but
> there is a reason these things are all the rage. An inexpensive
> push-scooter gets you all the exercise of walking (and then
> some), plus you can get to moderate-distance places easier.
They sure do look awfully silly, but I played with one
of those Razor scooters recently and it's a lot of fun.
I wonder how much it really would help speed up getting
around, and have thought about picking one up and seeing,
but wasn't ready to toss $100 at it. I saw them for a
good bit less on one of the group-buying websites and
may go for it there. I figure that if I don't use it,
I'm sure I know some kids who'd love it.
> the road more than any other factor. For comfort, I highly
> recommend looking at recumbent bikes. They don't have a good
> reputation with aggressive 20- and 30-something Type A roadies,
> but most everyone with some balance or a little more maturity
> recognizes the amazing difference in comfort and in
> performance.
They are _very_ expensive. Even the least expensive recumbants
I've seen are several times more expensive than comparable
quality traditional bikes. I'd look into a hybrid - somewhat
mountain-bike style, but with road tires. The road tires
make for much easier work on the rider on roads and the
upright position makes for more comfort and an easier
time seeing than a traditional road bike.
> I guess that was a lot more than two cents...
With inflation and all, I'll call it a nickel, at least.
--d
Pat Meadows
<susanbarro...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>Consider a scooter. It sounds a little silly, probably, but
>there is a reason these things are all the rage. An inexpensive
>push-scooter gets you all the exercise of walking (and then
>some), plus you can get to moderate-distance places easier.
>It's a fantastic middle-ground between walking and cycling. My
>partner, since getting his scooter, has been actively looking
>for errands to run on it. Added bonus...everybody thinks you're
>cool! =)
Or in-line skates. Skating is a joy!
(Annette: where are you?)
Pat
Vivian Walker
their summer job paycheques are tired of them. A friend already picked
one up for half price at Play It Again Sports.
Viv
susanb
> (that's $10 - once - for a lifetime membership!), you get a
> rebate based on your purchases each year.
Very true, and part of the reason we like it. Note that the
lifetime membership is $15 these days, not $10, but still a
bargain. Also, beware using a credit card...you only get the
regular rebate percentage using the REI credit card, cash,
check, or debit card. The rebate percentage for others' credit
cards is significantly reduced. Also, the rebate only applies
to regular priced items. But it's still a good deal, if you pay
attention.
>> Check out Dana Designs - they're practically bulletproof,
>> though Dana himself left after K2 bought the company
>
>Oh, yeah, the other thing is that REI has their own
>store brand of a lot of things which is comparable in
>quality to the Dana stuff, but quite a bit cheaper.
>Dana stuff is really top-notch -- and expensive.
Um, slight disagreement here. I suggested Dana because it is
indeed really top-notch. I haven't had experience with anything
built post-K2, but the bags built previous to that were WAY
better quality than the REI store brand. REI is fine for casual
users, but if you're hard on gear, beware. (Also beware
Mountain Hardware, which also seems to break easily.) We really
thrash the hell out of our gear, and only Dana has lasted.
Can't wait to see what he does now that he's starting something
new again. For a price-point between Dana and REI, check out
Gregory, which is also pretty tough stuff, and has a reputation
for being well made.
> They sure do look awfully silly, but I played with one of
> those Razor scooters recently and it's a lot of fun.
Agreed, on both counts. =) My partner loves the thing, and
feels that it has really helped his mobility. Now, again, he's
been car-free for years, so his comparison is against walking or
cycling. You might be able to pick one up on the cheap either
at a group buying site or at auction. I haven't looked at eBay,
but they seem to have everything else...
> They are _very_ expensive. Even the least expensive recumbants
> I've seen are several times more expensive than comparable
> quality traditional bikes.
I disagree, but I understand that recumbents aren't for
everyone, pricewise. Most "tootle around" recumbents (like the
BikeE) have an entry level bike around $600. Most upright
hybrids I've seen with comparable parts are around $400-500.
That's not a big difference in price, considering the
superiority of the recumbent, particularly for a more mature
person for whom comfort may shortly become a majoy factor. And
bear in mind that even the wicked high-performance 'bents that
go for $2000-$5000 (the high end being titanium and the very
best parts) are cheap compared to purchasing and owning a *car*
which is the frame of reference here. A super high-performance
upright road bike (say a Merlin ti) would cost as much.
Part of the reason the more expensive 'bents are showcased more
often is that 'bent enthusiasts tend to be real gearheads. They
love performance, performance, performance, and many are older
and in a position to spend more on their "baby" than your
average recreational cyclist. But there really do exist
reasonably-priced 'bents for the commuter/weekend enthusiast.
I guess part of my philosophy of frugality is to identify those
things which, while expensive at the outset, are of very high
quality and will last a long time. Once I find those high-value
items, I save up to buy them with cash, and then I don't have to
keep replacing them. It's kind of like the difference between
buying a pair of $30 shoes once a year versus buying a single
pair of $100 shoes every 5-10 years, only on a grander scale.
In the long run, I still save money.
Again, just my nickel's worth, and YMMV.
sb
Mtnguy
there are no buses, no grocery stores, etc, etc. It is 8 miles to the
nearest bus stop but it only comes twice a day ... 6am and 6pm.
Glad you feel it works for you but it would be impossible to live where I do
without a car. However, I would NOT live anywhere else either. I would
rather have to drive to civilization than live in it ... ;-)
Jim
Kathleen Murphy <mur...@travel-net.com> wrote in message
news:Oq%j5.3163$Z2.5...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> Our family has been car-free and care-free for
> over a year now.
>
> As some people mentioned in other posts, there was
> an initial loss of spontenaety (or however you
> spell that thing!). But it was made up for in
> other ways. Walking to and from places allows you
> to literally and figuratively stop and smell the
> roses much, much, more. We've discovered places
> we would never have known existed had we been
> whipping past in a car going 60 klicks. We talk
> to each other more now: when we are all out
> together we sit in a corner at the back of the bus
> and talk and joke around with our 5 year old like
> we never did in the car. In the car, Junior was
> in the back, one of us was driving, and the other
> was just looking out the window.
>
> There are logistical adjustments one has to make.
> One has to be a little more organised and
> punctual, of course. One plans to pick up milk or
> a big package of toilet paper or something on the
> way home from work. Spread the grocery shopping
> out a little more over the week. But generally,
> groceries are not as much of a problem as I would
> have thought. A large backpack does quite nicely.
> Just make sure the bread is *on top of* the
> cabbages, not the other way around! Usually at
> the grocery store I request "no bags" and instead
> transfer purchased items to a second (initially
> empty) shopping cart. Then I can roll out the
> whole operation of the way of the cashier and load
> my backpack (in order of item density!) without
> clogging up the cash area.
>
> Winter (which can get to -20s Centigrade for a few
> weeks at a time) was also not as much of a problem
> as I thought it might be. One just dresses for
> it.
>
> Commuting is the easy part. We live close to a
> road dedicated for buses only (the "Transitway"):
> Between the Transitway and the commuter-express
> busses at rush-hour, it is actually faster to get
> to work by bus than by car, despite a slightly
> circuitous routing . And at off-peak times it
> takes maybe only 15 - 20 minutes longer than by
> car.
>
> DH has been a stay-at-home Dad, and he and Junior
> are out-and-about all day by public transit or
> afoot. Junior is starting school in the fall, and
> will be travelling to and fro by school bus.
>
> We have friends who live across town, a little
> over an hour away by bus. Not being able to see
> them conveniently is a bit of a hassle. But we
> phone more often now, and meet at parks etc. where
> our respective offspring can run around and the
> adults can chat. Sure other things take a wee bit
> longer to do, but not really that much longer --
> just bring a book along, or pray more, or
> people-watch.
>
> We have rented a car only twice in the past year,
> and have had to take taxis maybe a dozen times.
> We have even gone on holiday to Niagara Falls
> car-free, taking the train there and then taking
> local public transit and walking to get around.
> The beauty of that was that we got to see where
> the locals lived, and not just the touristy areas.
>
> Overall, we are really happy with the car-free
> lifestyle. Not to mention no more worries about
> rust, the car being stolen, gas mileage, tune ups
> that turn into $2000 repair jobs, oil changes,
> flat tires, car accidents, etc., etc. Frankly,
> the longer one is away from driving the less one
> wants to go back to it.
>
> I hope this brief description of our lifestyle has
> inspired you to give up the vehicle -- or at least
> try it out.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> KM
>
>
>
>
essex
j-la...@neiu.edu wrote:
>
> "dickwyll" <dick...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> >>I guess it depends on how often "occasional" is. Two car rentals per
> >>month would equal the cost of car insurance (assuming that you have a
> >>decent driving record). If you just stopped driving to work, you would
> >>greatly reduce your car maintenance and gas expenses as well as your
> >>insurance costs. Assuming that your car is paid for, the economic
> >>trade-off is not that significant.
> >
> >
> >I rented a car on Saturday. Total cost with all taxes: $34.17. During the
> >week, it has sometimes gone up to $40.00. I have rented a car for a week
> >for as low at $170.00.
> >
> >So 2 X $34.17 = $68.34 X 12 months = $820.00.
> >
>
> Gee! And my annual insurance on a 15-yr-old car, alone, is $860!
> (With a very decent driving racord -- Harrunph.)
> I can't imagine where the earlier poster got his/her rental figures.
<Harrumph> You just proved my point! I said "two car rentals per month
would equal the cost of car insurance." $820 (cost of two rentals per
month) is pretty close to $860 (cost of car insurance). And $34.17 --
taxes included -- is a very good rate for a one-day car rental. One can,
indeed, get a lower average daily cost by renting for a long weekend or
full week, but then the total cost would rise even more. No doubt by
shopping around, one could match this rate most of the time ... however,
remember that the poster has only a Hertz outlet near his/her home; and
having to shop around greatly reduces the convenience of occasional
rentals.
Anyway, since I wrote the above comments, we have learned that Take Your
Pick is still making car payments, which puts the economic question in a
different light. He/she probably would save money by living car-free, at
least until the time the car would have been paid off.
However, as others have pointed out, this is really a lifestyle choice,
not an economic one. I freely admit to being addicted to driving and
can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be .. but hey! one less car on the
road. Sounds OK to me! :-)
SoSadaboutus
music...@somewhere.com wrote:
> Soul Surgeon <SoulS...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >I never owned a car or had a driver's license due to all the expense
and
> >stress involved.
> >I live close to work and a grocery store. Besides that, I don't date,
> >have almost no social life, it helps me stay totally isolated, but
> >certain things just don't get done and my aging relatives don't get
> >visited.
>
> I am married and don't drive, never had my license. I can't drive
because
> of seizures.
I have used that excuse before, but stopped once I realized I would
have to give occasional demonstrations.
>My DH rents a car a couple of times per month (if necessary)
> to pick up his daughter who lives out of town.
>
>
SoSadaboutus
cper...@stemnet.nf.ca (Cheryl L. Perkins) wrote:
> Soul Surgeon (SoulS...@webtv.net) wrote:
> : I never owned a car or had a driver's license due to all the
expense and
> : stress involved.
> : I live close to work and a grocery store. Besides that, I don't
date,
> : have almost no social life, it helps me stay totally isolated, but
> : certain things just don't get done and my aging relatives don't get
> : visited.
>
> meeting people on the street while walking, asking friend for lifts in
> emergencies, and talking with taxi and bus drivers while they are
taking
> you to visit your aging relatives. In fact, if your relatives live any
> distance away, I have found that it is almost impossible to avoid
getting
> a chatty seatmate on a long distance bus. They're as bad as airplanes,
> that way, although cheaper.
>
My grandmother is about 45 minutes by car or 3 1/2 hours by (for about
$3) I cannot stand spending that much time on one of our local buses,
and up until a few months ago only had 1 day off a week and didn't have
the time to make a trip like that. My dad would come and pick me up but
I would have to spend the whole weekend there which is a bit like being
in the waiting room at a doctors office, except he'll occassionally
yell at me for looking bored and not saying anything and not wanting to
watch old movies.
> I'm considering getting rid of the car I bought, after a long car-less
> period, when I had to work in an area where I needed it. I don't any
more,
> and am considering selling it (Ouch! Losing the depreciation, since I
> would be selling it far sooner than planned), keeping it or keeping it
> and, say, putting it in storage for the worst winter months to avoid
> digging and snowclearing.
>
> Cheryl
> --
> Cheryl Perkins
> cper...@stemnet.nf.ca
su-t...@webtv.net
and how devastating they are, .. in so many ways.
i have met many injured people now.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
bicycles are very dangerous, ..
and many head and spine injuries are caused, .. when you crash.
and accidents do happen, and often.
auto accidents are serious too, and cause many injuries, ..
but you are better protected, in a vehicle, than on a bicycle.
falls on pavement, are very serious, .. and account for many head,
spine, and body injuries.
anyone can fall, at any time, on pavement.
assaults also account, for many head/spine/body injuries.
since our legal system does not work, ..
bad drivers, etc., usually are not punished, ..
and criminals are not stopped, or even slowed down!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
unlike what television shows, .. many injuries are very serious, and
they dont heal.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
since our system is set up, so badly, .. and does not function
positively, in most ways now, ...
it is a very difficult struggle, to try to survive, once you have been
injured.
i have done almost everything, that you can imagine, . .
to try to find and get to, .. good medical care, ..
but nothing has worked, so far.
all that the best insurance, now entitles you to, .. is the right to
fight, .. to try to get any(!) medical care.
often, after you are seriously injured, in any way, .. your general
practice doctor, .. will suddenly drop you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
in 1999-2000, .. in dallas and temple, ..
i had to start sleeping in my truck, in the parking lot, ..
(in freezing weather, or super hot weather!),
in order to try, to keep appointments, .. with the doctors, for testing
and care.
i have to drive, hundreds of miles, for these appointments, .. which
costs, a great deal.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
doctors try to set up, impossible situations and conditions, for the
patients, .. in order to discourage them, .. from seeking medical care.
after my fulfilling all these conditions, .. and proving injuries with
testing, ..
i would still be refused all care, .. and be turned away.
the doctors say, that it is too expensive now, .. to give good testing
or medical care, ..
and that the corporations will put them out of business, if they do it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
if you are ever injured, .. you will have to fight nonstop, in every way
you can, .. to try to survive.
a vehicle becomes a complete necessity.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
anyone can be injured, at any time.
and often afterwards, .. their spouse and family might leave or disown
them.
some people are only there, .. for as long as any situation, .. only
profits them.
injuries can change everything completely, .. and change is very hard,
for some people, .. to adapt to.
it is very hard, to try to exist, .. alone and injured, .. and to have
to fight nonstop, for medical care, .. and to try to meet, just some
survival needs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
since injuries happen so often, ..
and since the system has now been stripped, .. by the greedy
corporations and politicians, ..
please be careful, .. to try to insure, .. that you do have the best
chances, of survival.
you might have to travel, thousands of miles, .. to reach any good
medical care.
and it could take years, .. to find a doctor or specialist, .. who will
still work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
you probably need, to have a vehicle, .. if you plan to have the best
chances, for surviving.
bad weather makes walking and biking, far more hazardous.
and people who are desperate for cash, for drugs and stuff, ..
seem to always be looking, for new areas and people, to attack and rob.
------------------------------------------------------------
plus, there are the sex offenders, .. who attack people, too.
in June 1995, .. i survived two sexual assaults/attempted murders, by a
customer, ..
in the small post office, where i worked.
i could not get, any medical care, for two years after that, ..
because the doctors were afraid, .. that i might file workers comp.
the sheriff's deputy laughed at me, .. and he would not let me report
it.
the post office abandoned me, and tried to fire me.
i have now learned, that this is typical behavior.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
there is no protection left.
no one is going to help you, .. and almost no one can still care.
the situation is now so bad in texas, ..
that when i contacted the churches, for the first time, .. in late 1998,
.
they said, that they had had, to stop helping, ..
because the needs here, .. now that our legal and medical rights are
gone, ..
are so overwhelming now.
i really wish, that i had the money back, .. that i was stupid and naive
enough, .. to give to those churches.
i have faith in God and in the Greater Good, .. but not in organized
religion, any more.
-------------------------------------------------------------
in Jan. 1998, .. i walked out of a store, at a mall, .. stepped on a
concealed wheelchair ramp, a drop-off in the sidewalk, .. hit pavement
and slid.
i now have severe head/spine/body injuries, ..
and i am once again faced, .. with no medical care.
i still have, the very best health insurance, .. good anywhere.
the major problem, is the money for gas, .. to get to doctors
appointments each month, ..
to beg and pay, for care, .. and to get turned down.
many doctors are choosing, to profit only, .. on the initial visit
patient pay-offs, ..
that the insurance companies are still willing to pay.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
my injuries are very serious, .. i can barely breathe, .. and i must
reach care.
the injuries and lack of medical care, caused me to have a stroke, in
March 2000.
i had no other risk factors, .. other than being severely injured.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
i cant get any medical care or help, .. not even a machine, to use with
the phone.
texas has literally been stripped, .. in order to deliver more profits,
to the rich and powerful, .. at our expense.
------------------------------------------------------------------
i also learned, .. that my legal rights are now gone, in texas, .. due
to bad laws, and corrupt politicians.
and the shopping mall, still refuses to mark, the wheelchair ramp.
they and their insurance company, .. are very arrogant and grateful ..
to the crappy little texas governor, ..
for his giving them, so many rights and privileges now, ..
to harm as many texans, as they want to.
------------------------------------------------------------------
in 1998, i met the politicians, on the campaign trail, .. to beg them
for positive change, .. and to mark that wheelchair ramp.
nothing good happened. and nothing got done.
without penalties, .. power can be very corrupting, greedy, evil, and
wrong.
i have now met hundreds of people, .. especially on the internet, at the
injury boards, ..
who are going through, the same things, that i am.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
about owning a vehicle:
it is good, to be positive and optomisic, in some ways.
but try not to let, .. your ego, arrogance, and greed, .. blind you, to
what is and isnt .. frugal living.
you want to give yourself, .. the very best options, .. for surviving,
.
for the longest time, .. in the best circumstances, ..
no matter what happens to you, in our lifetime.
---------------------------------------------------------------
also, the BBB does not work in Houston.
they refuse to take complaints, ..
and they tell people to get lawyers, .. if they have problems, with any
businesses, in Houston, TX.
after that, they wont respond.
i guess they get, to keep their books, very clear and clean, that way.
????!!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
most decisions in life, .. are not, .. for all or nothing.
walking and biking can be good alternatives, at times.
but, try to be careful and safe, .. and try to keep your options open.
thanks.
susan, su_texas
my opinions
SoSadaboutus
I have totally foam-rubber padded my entire body and isolated myself in
my apartment. All I have to worry about are natural disasters and
nuclear war. As well as disease, sickness, falling down in the shower
and of course my own mortality.
Julian9EHP
[ . . . ]
>auto accidents are serious too, and cause many injuries, ..
>but you are better protected, in a vehicle, than on a bicycle.
[ . . . ]
Port Authority Transit buses are even safer.
E. Penrose
su-t...@webtv.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
& Soul Surgeon, that was an interesting response.
i am probably .. more naive and inexperienced, .. on some levels, ..
than you say, you are.
i have never been, to las vegas, with a friend, of any kind, ..
and especially one, who liked to throw money away, .. and at strippers?
(you have actually seen one?!)
the most i have seen, was a used pastie once.
one of my friends had it, and was saving it, .. until she got married.
just one pastie? i always wondered about that.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
and Soul Surgeon, i did not mean, .. to question, your safety
precautions, ..
this is not a drill or test, .. of your emergency preparedness system,
.
honest, .. at ease! relax. & you can drop the foam.
------------------------------------------------------------------
i did not mean to alarm you.
i probably said something wrong, .. so i will try to clarify, the basic
stuff.
my philosophy in life is .. to have a very positive mindset, ..
and to laugh and joke a lot, .. no matter what happens.
i am severely injured, and i am still doing my best, in every way, that
i can, to survive.
i have now learned, that in life, ..
i cant keep bad things, from happening to me, ..
but i can only control, .. how i react to them.
i try to stay calm, and to fight .. with savvy, persistence, and hard
work. and to be very frugal.
i try not to worry, about anything, .. & to enjoy life, ..
but i also do my best, .. to be prepared and ready, .. if anything bad,
should happen.
that is very practical and logical.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
and i never, ever, .. try to be or act, .. (blahhh!) "normal".
it is a waste, of good time and energy.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
and Soul Surgeon, .. how is the foam going to protect you, .. if someone
strikes a match?
foam is supposed .. to be highly FLAMMABLE.
Gotcha!
(smile!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
i am so busy today!
i am washing clothes, in the back yard, ..
and getting the truck ready, for another long trip, .. to try for
medical care.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
i love the outdoors.
i have a dog, that is over 12 years old, ..
(part blue heeler, part border collie),
that stays right beside me, .. when i walk, .. or wash clothes. and i
love that!
i raised him, from birth, .. when his mom abandoned him.
sometimes i think, that animals,
are God's gift to us, on earth,
to show us .. unconditional love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
i live on the edge of town, on several acres of land, .. in a large old
wooden house, .. where almost nothing works now.
no a/c, but i do have a fan.
such is my life now, .. but i still love it.
after i reach good medical care, & get a little better,
i plan to repair stuff, in the house.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
i am getting so many good tips, .. from the things yall write.
i love your humor.
thanks.
susan, su_texas
Eance
`think we`ve 'met' before on ATH?
Just to say I appreciate what you`re saying here. I used to
live miles from anywhere, doing the frugal 'goodlife' bit with
only a dodgy old motorbike and sidecar for transport. When I had
my first kid I realised I had to have reliable transport because
accidents and sudden illness do happen, especially to kids.
The 10/20 minutes I spent coaxing that bike to work was too
expensive.
E
Lech K. Lesiak
> bicycles are very dangerous, ..
> and many head and spine injuries are caused, .. when you crash.
A 61 year-old man died over the weekend in Calgary because he ran his
bicycle into a tree. Head injuury, no helmet.
I wiped out on Sunday in my back lane when the front wheel slipped on
gravel. Possible cracked rib. I'll find out today. My GP will see me on
one day's notice - so much for people in Canada dying on waiting lists.
I still feel a lot safer on my bike than I do in a car.
Cheers,
Lech
j-la...@neiu.edu
>Take your pick <no-email-re...@here.com> writes:
>
>> I know its too soon to say for sure, but thus far, I do not miss my car.
>> If my carless experiment works out, I do intend to treat myself to
>> renting one of Hertz's fanciest cars during the holiday season so I can
>> finish up buying Xmas gifts, go to parties, and so on.
>
>Instead of hitting the malls to go Xmas shopping, you could always
>order from catalogs (many of them are now on the web, too). In the
>last year I've only been to a mall twice, and if I could find a good
>place to buy underwear online I'd never go back.
>
>Congratulations on your car-free existence!
>
I've been without a car for eight months -- by coincidence and then
choice. It needs repair over which I have procrastinated, trying to
decide whether to make major repauirs or buy a new one.
In the meantime, I discovered the bus to work takes about the same
time as my driving, and I can relax and read on the way! I gave up
shopping malls a few years ago -- they all have the same stores. I
would take the bus downtown for occasional "real" shopping, anyway.
I've discovered the neighborhood butcher and stores for meat and fresh
produce, while use the web and delivery once a month for "stock up"
items. For the first time I've discovered the fun of shopping on
the web and home delivery.
Economics aside, the only thing I miss is the ability to take an
impromptu drive for for errands -- they now have to be planned.
But the up side is a decluttering of a few "friends." (I know,
decluttering is another news group :) On social occasions, *I* used
to be the one invited everywhere, and naturally usually got stuck
driving and paying for parking. After a few times of being invited
and my saying "I'll meet you there, or we can split the cost of a
cab," coincidentally these invitations seem to be drying up.
Interesting. I guess some of these people weren't really friends,
after all. They weren't always inviting me just to see me.
Harrumph!
No, I'm not isolated -- I'm freed of some leeches. When I finally get
the beast repaired or replaced, I think I'll continue the bus to work,
and try not to let too many people know I have a working car.
Tock
>>gravel. Possible cracked rib. I'll find out today. My GP will see me on
>>one day's notice - so much for people in Canada dying on waiting lists.
>>I still feel a lot safer on my bike than I do in a car.
>wow one days notice for a cracked rib!
That's still a lot better than what an awful lot of Americans have . . .
take a stroll through the Parkland emergency room, where folks in Dallas
County go when they have no insurance coverage. Folks with broken limbs
can sit in the waiting room for 12 hours while they take care of gunshot
wounds . . . mothers carrying disease-ridden kids might get a perfunctory
glance after them . . . man oh man, it's worse than Calcutta . . . They do
the best with what they have, but if there's anything that's long overdue,
it's universal health care.
The Canadians are light-years ahead of us when it comes to health care . .
.
--Tock
Anthony Matonak
...
> I had the same exact thing happen a few weeks ago. My husband and I
> took the bus to a concert that happened to be local (Indigo Girls,
> yay!), and we happened to bump into our next-door neighbor. We told
> him that we'd taken the bus, and not only did he assume both our cars
> were broken, he thought we were hinting to get a ride home with him.
> He looked really surprised when we said we *liked* taking the bus.
> Then he pointed out that there were spiderwebs on my van (which was
> parked at the curb at home.) I knew it had been a long time since I'd
> driven it, but not *that* long! (And yes, it still runs great, or did
> the last time I drove it.)
I've seen spiders do some incredible amounts of work in very short
time frames. I.e. waking up in the morning to find a critter has
spun a six foot diameter perfect spiral across the entryway to your
house.
That said, many cities have laws which require you to move your
vehicle every day or so. In fact, some places have such strict
parking laws that you are not allowed to park your car at the curb
overnight. It's always best to park any vehicle off the street and
if possible in a garage for just this reason.
Anthony
Lech K. Lesiak
> >I still feel a lot safer on my bike than I do in a car.
>
> wow one days notice for a cracked rib!
It turned out OK - just bruised. I was into the GP's office, into the
lab for x-rays, and out in under an hour. So much for Canadian waiting
lists.
This whole thing turned out to be a much less serious than I thought.
It seems they don't do anything for cracked or broken ribs anyways, except
prescribe painkillers if you need them. The only benefit from the
diagnosis is that I know how long it will take to recover. A cracked rib
would take double the time.
Upon reflection, it's even more impressive that I got in to see the GP
on one day's notice. He cerainly knew that my condition was minor even
if I didn't.
Cheers,
Lech
sh...@ecn.ab.ca
: Anthony
AGREED!!! Streets should be for MOVING vehicles, NOT for storing vehicles.
OK for short-term parking, e.g. deliveries, picking up or dropping off
someone, repair people. BUT, everyone else, unless YOU PROVIDE for OFF
street parking/storage for your vehicle you can't really afford to have a
vehicle. The rest of us taxpayers should NOT have to pay for roads for YOU
to store your vehicle because you are too cheap to build a driveway,
carport, garage, whatever.
mull...@ex-pressnet.com
the street I live on is in a residential area, and there are many culd
de sacs and dead ends in the neighborhood. this particular street is
for residents to park on only (its even so designated with signs) and
is NOT for people to go driving through. I dont know where you live,
but around here ther isnt a problem with residental parking...
Barb
sh...@ecn.ab.ca
: sh...@ecn.ab.ca wrote:
: : AGREED!!! Streets should be for MOVING vehicles, NOT for storing vehicles.
: : OK for short-term parking, e.g. deliveries, picking up or dropping off
: : someone, repair people. BUT, everyone else, unless YOU PROVIDE for OFF
: : street parking/storage for your vehicle you can't really afford to have a
: : vehicle. The rest of us taxpayers should NOT have to pay for roads for YOU
: : to store your vehicle because you are too cheap to build a driveway,
: : carport, garage, whatever.
: What if you live in an area built up pre-car, without space to add in
: driveways or garages? And if, because of that, people do part their cars
: on the street, long term, and city hall even supports this with permits
: for local residents and arrangements for snow clearing?
No problem at all, ***IF**** the cost of those permits reflects the TRUE
VALUE of that roadway space. I would suggest a fee of ONE THOUSAND dollars
a year, per vehicle, to reserve that space for one's private use. Also,
who held a gun to their head and MADE THEM LIVE IN that area. Sounds like
an ideal area for pedestrians, cyclists, public transit users, etc.
Motorists, get the Hell to the suburbs where there **IS**** space for
driveways, carports etc..
: Not everyone lives in the same situations - or would want to.
: Cheryl
: --
: Cheryl Perkins
: cper...@stemnet.nf.ca
--
sh...@ecn.ab.ca
: the street I live on is in a residential area, and there are many culd
: de sacs and dead ends in the neighborhood. this particular street is
: for residents to park on only (its even so designated with signs) and
: is NOT for people to go driving through. I dont know where you live,
: but around here ther isnt a problem with residental parking...
Excuse me but ALL PUBLIC STREETS are open for ANY MEMBER of the public to
drive on..cul de sac or not. The fact is, the BETTER the class of
neighbourhood, the FEWER vehicles you will see parked on the street. I
much prefer the wide open look of a street with NO PARKED VEHICLES than I
do the cluttered look of a street clogged with parked vehicles. Fewer
vehicles parked on the street make it safer for pets, children and other
pedestrians in that they are more visible to motorists. Hardly ANYONE,
except for SHORT periods of time, parts on the street in MY neighbourhood.
We have GARAGES, car ports, DRIVEWAYS etc...for that purpose.
: Barb
: On 17 Aug 2000 05:42:19 -0700, sh...@ecn.ab.ca () wrote:
: >Anthony Matonak (ant...@matonak.org) wrote:
: >: "Holly L. Ward" wrote:
: >: ...
: >: > I had the same exact thing happen a few weeks ago. My husband and I
: >: > took the bus to a concert that happened to be local (Indigo Girls,
: >: > yay!), and we happened to bump into our next-door neighbor. We told
: >: > him that we'd taken the bus, and not only did he assume both our cars
: >: > were broken, he thought we were hinting to get a ride home with him.
: >: > He looked really surprised when we said we *liked* taking the bus.
: >: > Then he pointed out that there were spiderwebs on my van (which was
: >: > parked at the curb at home.) I knew it had been a long time since I'd
: >: > driven it, but not *that* long! (And yes, it still runs great, or did
: >: > the last time I drove it.)
: >
: >: I've seen spiders do some incredible amounts of work in very short
: >: time frames. I.e. waking up in the morning to find a critter has
: >: spun a six foot diameter perfect spiral across the entryway to your
: >: house.
: >
: >: That said, many cities have laws which require you to move your
: >: vehicle every day or so. In fact, some places have such strict
: >: parking laws that you are not allowed to park your car at the curb
: >: overnight. It's always best to park any vehicle off the street and
: >: if possible in a garage for just this reason.
: >
: >: Anthony
: >
: >AGREED!!! Streets should be for MOVING vehicles, NOT for storing vehicles.
: >OK for short-term parking, e.g. deliveries, picking up or dropping off
: >someone, repair people. BUT, everyone else, unless YOU PROVIDE for OFF
: >street parking/storage for your vehicle you can't really afford to have a
: >vehicle. The rest of us taxpayers should NOT have to pay for roads for YOU
: >to store your vehicle because you are too cheap to build a driveway,
: >carport, garage, whatever.
: >
: >
: >
--
Cheryl L. Perkins
: AGREED!!! Streets should be for MOVING vehicles, NOT for storing vehicles.
: OK for short-term parking, e.g. deliveries, picking up or dropping off
: someone, repair people. BUT, everyone else, unless YOU PROVIDE for OFF
: street parking/storage for your vehicle you can't really afford to have a
: vehicle. The rest of us taxpayers should NOT have to pay for roads for YOU
: to store your vehicle because you are too cheap to build a driveway,
: carport, garage, whatever.
What if you live in an area built up pre-car, without space to add in
driveways or garages? And if, because of that, people do part their cars
on the street, long term, and city hall even supports this with permits
for local residents and arrangements for snow clearing?
Not everyone lives in the same situations - or would want to.
mull...@ex-pressnet.com
winding streets with as few cars driving through or possible. and in
my case, I dont think this affects the class of neighborhood at all.
This is a urban villiage with small, expensive brownstone type
houses..some have garages and some dont. I consider a better class of
neighborhood to be one that has been designed with as few through
streets as possible, personally
barb
>: >AGREED!!! Streets should be for MOVING vehicles, NOT for storing vehicles.
>: >OK for short-term parking, e.g. deliveries, picking up or dropping off
>: >someone, repair people. BUT, everyone else, unless YOU PROVIDE for OFF
>: >street parking/storage for your vehicle you can't really afford to have a
>: >vehicle. The rest of us taxpayers should NOT have to pay for roads for YOU
>: >to store your vehicle because you are too cheap to build a driveway,
>: >carport, garage, whatever.
>: >
>: >
>: >
>
>
>--
>
>
>
JoelnCaryn
>is usually a 1-way maze because of 'em being parked on both sides. You have
>to hop from one open space to another when there's any traffic at all on the
>danged thing, and it's normally only used by just the local residents, btw.
>It's not a short-cut anywhere and there's no biz's on it.
Think of it as traffic calming. There are pedestrians
and animals on residental streets. The faster cars
travel, the more noise they make. Slowing cars down
on residential streets is generally considered a good
thing in city planning now because of factors like
those, and one of the primary tactics used by the
planning committees to insure that traffic does slow
is narrowing the streets by widening sidewalks and
planting trees. Parking cars on both sides has
the same effect, though it's less attractive.
Minimizing the possibility of shortcuts through
residential neighborhoods also helps, though
this tends to make it harder for bicyclists to travel
parallel to major arteries on a bike, thereby forcing
them out into high-speed traffic.
Lots of communities are also installing "speed
humps", 9' wide speed bumps designed to lower
top speed on residential streets to 20 mph. In
reality they produce the sound of screeching brakes
as the driver, travelling at 40 mph, approaches the
hump, then the sound of a car whamming! up and
down over it, then the sound of a car accelerating.
They do drop traffic speed noticeably, but I'd prefer
the "cars parked on the side of the road" approach
just for the noise control.
Downtown Tempe, Arizona has been completely
remodeled in the last 15 years. In order to get
people out of their cars and walking past the shops,
increasing sales as a result, they widened the
sidewalks, added a median, planted trees on both,
and added crosswalks every 25 meters or so.
Try http://www.tempe.gov/traffic/trafmgnt.htm for
their policies on managing neighborhood traffic,
and note that one of the proposed tactics is
signage and striping for streetside parking,
especially on collector streets (the ones that
run parallel to the arterial streets and have
bike lanes.)
--
Caryn (joelncaryn at aol dot com)
Bev
>
> sh...@ecn.ab.ca wrote:
>
> : No problem at all, ***IF**** the cost of those permits reflects the TRUE
> : VALUE of that roadway space. I would suggest a fee of ONE THOUSAND dollars
> : a year, per vehicle, to reserve that space for one's private use. Also,
> : who held a gun to their head and MADE THEM LIVE IN that area. Sounds like
> : an ideal area for pedestrians, cyclists, public transit users, etc.
> : Motorists, get the Hell to the suburbs where there **IS**** space for
> : driveways, carports etc..
>
It would be pretty to think so. Around here the regs tend to be favored by
real estate salesmen and revenue-and-contribution-dependent city
councildroids.
--
Cheers,
Bev
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Subscribe today to "Fire in the Hole - the Quarterly Journal
for Incinerator Toilet Enthusiasts" -- Andrew
Bev
>
> Well I hate to burst your bubble but...I prefer the look of smaller
> winding streets with as few cars driving through or possible. and in
> my case, I dont think this affects the class of neighborhood at all.
> This is a urban villiage with small, expensive brownstone type
> houses..some have garages and some dont. I consider a better class of
> neighborhood to be one that has been designed with as few through
> streets as possible, personally
Around here, the "better class of neighborhood" (homes in the $million
category) are frequently located on main through streets. One by one,
choke points and speed bumps are being installed in these streets, causing
increasing nuisance to through traffic which has no other choice. I used
to honk loudly whenever I had to drive over a speed bump (which generally
requires 15 mph in a 20-30 mph area) but it annoyed my husband more than it
annoyed the residents.
Cheryl L. Perkins
: No problem at all, ***IF**** the cost of those permits reflects the TRUE
: VALUE of that roadway space. I would suggest a fee of ONE THOUSAND dollars
: a year, per vehicle, to reserve that space for one's private use. Also,
: who held a gun to their head and MADE THEM LIVE IN that area. Sounds like
: an ideal area for pedestrians, cyclists, public transit users, etc.
: Motorists, get the Hell to the suburbs where there **IS**** space for
: driveways, carports etc..
Fortunately, the local regulations are those favoured by local residents.
Cheryl
--
Cheryl Perkins
cper...@stemnet.nf.ca
BD
parked cars every day or the ones who park the cars? Which ones? My street
is usually a 1-way maze because of 'em being parked on both sides. You have
to hop from one open space to another when there's any traffic at all on the
danged thing, and it's normally only used by just the local residents, btw.
It's not a short-cut anywhere and there's no biz's on it.
"Cheryl L. Perkins" <cper...@stemnet.nf.ca> wrote in message
Cheryl L. Perkins
: "Fortunately," the laws favor the ones who have to drive in/around those
: parked cars every day or the ones who park the cars? Which ones? My street
: is usually a 1-way maze because of 'em being parked on both sides. You have
: to hop from one open space to another when there's any traffic at all on the
: danged thing, and it's normally only used by just the local residents, btw.
: It's not a short-cut anywhere and there's no biz's on it.
Both. The local residents are usually the ones both driving down the
streets and parking on them. Of course, some households don't have cars,
and some households have more than one, but those who have cars both park
and drive them. There's no rule as to how much time they can/have to spend
either parking or driving.
BD
Most people here, I'd bet, don't have the luxery to choose the "better
class" neighborhoods...
If you can afford it, of course, you can go with "gated communities,"
neighborhood associations that simply don't allow cars to be parked on the
street at all, 4-5 acre lots, etc...
<mull...@ex-pressnet.com> wrote in message
news:399d3ca...@news.ex-pressnet.com...
BD
traffic, you know that..
People 'race' from one stop to another.. Their blood-pressure rises, they
get mad.. they don't look for pedestrians or dogs when it is their 'turn',
etc...
And even when there is no traffic, people still don't watch for kids/pets
coming from behind all the parked cars..
"JoelnCaryn" <joeln...@aol.comfortable> wrote in message
news:20000818122226...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
> >My street
> >is usually a 1-way maze because of 'em being parked on both sides. You
have
> >to hop from one open space to another when there's any traffic at all on
the
> >danged thing, and it's normally only used by just the local residents,
btw.
> >It's not a short-cut anywhere and there's no biz's on it.
>
Cheryl L. Perkins
: It would be pretty to think so. Around here the regs tend to be favored by
: real estate salesmen and revenue-and-contribution-dependent city
: councildroids.
: --
: Cheers,
: Bev
We don't tend to have such big city problems. Although zoning is often a
topic of very lively debate,the nitty gritty details of parking
regulations don't get changed that often. There doesn't seem to be any
demand for new or different parking regulations, either, and I can just
imagine how infuriated I and my neighbours would be at the suggestion that
we should be forbidden to park in the street.
I suppose that's just another reason to be careful to choose where you
live - see if the parking regulations are ones you can live with. We do
have snow-clearing rules which mean that cars have to be moved at certain
times in the winter, but I knew that before I moved here, and when I have
a car, I accept that I am going to have to keep an eye on snowclearing
announcements and act accordingly.
mull...@ex-pressnet.com
comments, and disagreeing. I dont believe that the number of cars on
a street per se imply anything about the class of the neighborhood. I
would never live in a gated community, or one where cars cant be
parked on the street. In terms of expense, what I get for living
where I do would buy a hughe home twenty minutes out of town..not
implying wealth, just that in this particular area, the costs of
hoousing are high. Wehappen to think its worth the difference (half
the house for the same price) for not commuting more than five
minutes.
Barb
mull...@ex-pressnet.com
delibereately chose one where it wouldnt be a through street (I had a
couple alternatives) In our case, we paid a bit more for this
convenience. while I sympathize to a point with commuters, I have in
fact lived on a street that was residential and had a twenty five mile
posting. Everyone drove through at up to twice the speed, in a rush
to or from work, yakking on the phone and so forth. Personally, I
would consider the honking horn to be a small price to pay for more
safe residential streets. I realize I may be in the minority
Barb
On Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:06:57 -0700, Bev <bas...@ktb.net> wrote:
>mull...@ex-pressnet.com wrote:
>>
>> Well I hate to burst your bubble but...I prefer the look of smaller
>> winding streets with as few cars driving through or possible. and in
>> my case, I dont think this affects the class of neighborhood at all.
>> This is a urban villiage with small, expensive brownstone type
>> houses..some have garages and some dont. I consider a better class of
>> neighborhood to be one that has been designed with as few through
>> streets as possible, personally
>
Cheri
busy streets, two lanes each way. There were a few people who looked
like they were aiming at me. It was a little scarey.
Cheri
Glad to know you
Bev
Were you riding against traffic? Maybe they were, and rightly so... How
else could you see them aiming for you?
Not really, of course, but it's generally illegal to ride against traffic
because (a) you're a vehicle and are expected to behave like one, which
means that (b) cars coming out of driveways, turning right, etc., won't be
looking for you until you're under their wheels.
--
Cheers,
Bev
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Sign on restroom hand-dryer:
"Push button for a message from your congressman."
Cheri
safety reasons. I'm not that stupid. I could see them out the corner of
my eye at first, then as they were passing me.
Bev
No, I didn't think you were stupid. But many people are and teach their
children to ride against traffic, and you might have had such parents.
> Lets talk about that for a moment. If a bike is traveling at say 12
> mph on the side of the road with the traffic, if one doesn't keep
> ones eye to the rear on all vehicle passing him at a high rate of
> closing velocity, one could be hit by a careless or vindictive
> motorist and knocked into oblivion. By similar reasons, one walking
> on a road against the traffic would suffer a similar fate.
>
> But, the logic of a slow moving object flowing with the traffic is not
> there so laws were generated to keep the pedestrian walking on the
> side of the road against the traffic flow so a watchful eye could be
> trained on the approaching traffic. Similarly, why is a pedestrian
> who can increase his speed from say 3 mph to 12 mph more safe riding
> with the traffic than against it? I've heard that it's because one
> might loose control and fall into the path of the oncoming vehicle.
> Huh? Is one more likely to recover when run over by a vehicle
> traveling 50 mph or 40 mph which would be the case where the bike was
> traveling with the flow as opposed to against the flow? Further, is
> a person more likely to maintain bike better stability by watching
> traffic in front of him as opposed to turning his head to watch the
> traffic approaching him from the rear? Of course, rear view mirrors
> on eyeglasses can be used but they have limited clarity especially in
> low light conditions.
I've got a 3" convex mirror mounted in the ends of my handlebars. I'd
rather have a flat one, but they're hard to find.
> Personally, I think bike should always face the traffic for safety
> reasons. If others disagree, where is my logic failing?
The Law generally requires bicycles to travel the same direction as
traffic, and a cop who needs to fill his quota might find you easy game.
What about closing speed? If traffic is going 40 and the bicyclist is
going 20, the closing speed is 20 mph if they're going the same direction
or 60 mph if going opposite directions. In which case do the parties
concerned have more time to take evasive action? In which case is a sudden
move by either party likely to result in collision?
OTOH, cagers like to sneak up on bikers and do outrageous things to them.
OTOOH, they are cowardly and change their minds if they have time to see
that the biker is carrying a cell phone or gun. If the biker is traveling
the same direction as the cager, the biker has a better chance of catching
up with the cager and smashing his window with a D-lock. If the biker is
traveling the opposite direction, he is more likely to be able to escape
down a sidestreet before the cager has a chance to turn around.
I'll still go with the rationale that cagers don't look to the right when
pulling into traffic and are more likely to run you down by accident if
you're riding against traffic. It's not really true that most cagers
either don't care about killing bikers or actually try to run them down
(although it feels that way sometimes).
I'm willing to give drivers the benefit of the doubt and ride WITH
traffic; after all, even if you see somebody coming at you deliberately,
you probably still won't have time to get out of the way.
--
Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.
pc...@ludl.tds.net
"Ken H." wrote:
>
> On Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:19:03 -0400 (EDT), cher...@webtv.net (Cheri)
> wrote:
>
> >I was riding with the traffic. i wouldn't ride against the traffic for
> >safety reasons. I'm not that stupid. I could see them out the corner of
> >my eye at first, then as they were passing me.
> >Cheri
> >
>
> Lets talk about that for a moment. If a bike is traveling at say 12
> mph on the side of the road with the traffic, if one doesn't keep
> ones eye to the rear on all vehicle passing him at a high rate of
> closing velocity, one could be hit by a careless or vindictive
> motorist and knocked into oblivion. By similar reasons, one walking
> on a road against the traffic would suffer a similar fate.
>
> But, the logic of a slow moving object flowing with the traffic is not
> there so laws were generated to keep the pedestrian walking on the
> side of the road against the traffic flow so a watchful eye could be
> trained on the approaching traffic. Similarly, why is a pedestrian
> who can increase his speed from say 3 mph to 12 mph more safe riding
> with the traffic than against it? I've heard that it's because one
> might loose control and fall into the path of the oncoming vehicle.
> Huh? Is one more likely to recover when run over by a vehicle
> traveling 50 mph or 40 mph which would be the case where the bike was
> traveling with the flow as opposed to against the flow? Further, is
> a person more likely to maintain bike better stability by watching
> traffic in front of him as opposed to turning his head to watch the
> traffic approaching him from the rear? Of course, rear view mirrors
> on eyeglasses can be used but they have limited clarity especially in
> low light conditions.
>
> Personally, I think bike should always face the traffic for safety
> reasons. If others disagree, where is my logic failing?
As a child I was always told to bike facing traffic. Don't know when
the standard changed. Don't know if it really makes any difference.
I live on a listed scenic route. Many people drive way too fast [the
joys of those VT road curves] and bikers only have a little breakdown
foot or two to themselves. Lucky for them the road dept. is great
about keeping things swept up.
There are problems here about gettings funds for bike paths. Seems
that there are bucks out there for outright federal grants and also
matching funds for bike paths. But, the federal laws for bike path
funding is so wacky that one stoplight towns like us cannot afford to
apply. Paths must be built to exact fed specs..something like 4'
asphalt with 2' gravel on either side.
Our local reserve [army] has been donating time..off hours..for three
years now..to work on a ball field and an adjacent bike path. It's a
lovely thing when locals work so hard for something!
Certainly, there should be standards in transportation funding. And,
to be quite truthful, in my areas and a lot of others these bike
paths would not be used for transportation.
But, they would be used to increase tourism. And here they could be
used for VAST [ski mobiles] and XX skiiing. But, many places don't
have that extra foot or two to give up. But, if you don't meet the
exact standards of the feds you cannot get any money.
I'm not advocating pork here. I don't live in pork country. :-)
I'm advocating that these funds be used appropriately. How many
communities that want bike paths can afford a 10 foot wide swath? If
metro areas get massive fed subsidies for transportation, then bike
paths in smaller communities should be given a chance too.
Peter Rathmann
> Lets talk about that for a moment. If a bike is traveling at say 12
> mph on the side of the road with the traffic, if one doesn't keep
> ones eye to the rear on all vehicle passing him at a high rate of
> closing velocity, one could be hit by a careless or vindictive
> motorist and knocked into oblivion. By similar reasons, one walking
> on a road against the traffic would suffer a similar fate.
>
> But, the logic of a slow moving object flowing with the traffic is not
> there so laws were generated to keep the pedestrian walking on the
> side of the road against the traffic flow so a watchful eye could be
> trained on the approaching traffic. Similarly, why is a pedestrian
> who can increase his speed from say 3 mph to 12 mph more safe riding
> with the traffic than against it? I've heard that it's because one
> might loose control and fall into the path of the oncoming vehicle.
> Huh? Is one more likely to recover when run over by a vehicle
> traveling 50 mph or 40 mph which would be the case where the bike was
> traveling with the flow as opposed to against the flow? Further, is
> a person more likely to maintain bike better stability by watching
> traffic in front of him as opposed to turning his head to watch the
> traffic approaching him from the rear? Of course, rear view mirrors
> on eyeglasses can be used but they have limited clarity especially in
> low light conditions.
>
> Personally, I think bike should always face the traffic for safety
> reasons. If others disagree, where is my logic failing?
Mainly in being overly concerned about accidents where the
cyclist is hit from behind by an overtaking motorist, and
placing less emphasis on accidents where the cyclist and
motorist are turning into each other's paths. The accident
statistics I've seen show that the first type is less than
10% of all cycling accidents and the second type is almost
90%.
Therefore the second type is of much greater concern. This
type of accident happens at intersections and driveways
where motorists will naturally look much more closely in the
direction from which they expect to see other car traffic
(afterall, that is the traffic that can injure or kill
them), and give a quick cursory glance in the other
direction (where they don't really expect to see any
traffic).
Traffic accident statistics bear this out, and show that
'wrong-way' cyclists are involved in several times the
accident rate compared to cyclists riding with other
traffic.
I recommend John Forester's book "Effective Cycling," which
devotes quite a few pages to a discussion of accident causes
and how best to avoid them.
Victor Smith
>>
>OTOH, cagers like to sneak up on bikers and do outrageous things to them.
I hadn't noticed that.
>OTOOH, they are cowardly and change their minds if they have time to see
>that the biker is carrying a cell phone or gun.
And now I see why I haven't been hassled. When biking my .44 Magnum can
clearly be seen nestled in the holster on my left hip (I'm left-handed),
and my cell phone can clearly be seen nestled against my right ear, since
I chat a lot while biking.
> If the biker is traveling
>the same direction as the cager, the biker has a better chance of catching
>up with the cager and smashing his window with a D-lock.
Well, a D-lock is best used for its intended purpose, and a Magnum for
its. No need to smash an offending cager's window when one round of
armor-piercing tracer directed at his gas tank will send his entire
4-wheeled ride tumbling end-over-end in a loud and fiery display of "a
cager's gotta know his limitations."
Now don't get me wrong. I haven't done this yet, and hope I never have
to. But as you said, the correct accoutrements make for safer biking.
Additionally, since I sometimes night-ride, I keep my fender and pedal
reflectors absolutely clean.
--Vic
JoelnCaryn
>reasons. If others disagree, where is my logic failing?
Drivers making a left hand turn are not anticipating
traffic coming from *behind* them at the speed at
which bikes travel. Pedestrians walking against
traffic will be seen during the approach to the
street onto which the driver intends to turn, but
bicyclists can travel much faster and may not be
seen during the approach.
When I'm driving, despite the fact that I'm hyper-
aware of bikes, I *cannot* see bicyclists coming up
behind me to the left across three lanes of traffic,
especially if they've cut through a parking lot, while
I'm making a left across those three lanes. I've come
close to hitting multiple bicyclists that way. The ones
which are the hardest to see are those travelling on the
sidewalk against traffic -- which they're almost certainly
doing because they think it's "safer" in some way.
Wholly apart from that, it's illegal to ride against traffic
in Arizona, and the last two weeks of August are prime
citation-writing-to-raise-awareness time since the
students are back.
BD
The "trick," tho, is to realize that 99.99999999% of the drivers out there
are simply too chicken to do what they'd LIKE to do... Make it a "run over
me or get out of my way" affair for them since they aren't going to run over
you, but will 'squeeze' you if given the chance.. As-in.. Don't pull over
enough for 'em to share the lane with you.. Make 'em move all the way over
into the other lane... They make cuss you out as they go by, but they'll do
it from a safer distance.. ;) It'd be much harder to hide swerving from one
lane to another from witnesses than it would be to convince people that the
bicycle accidently swerved toward the truck a few inches to miss a rock or
whatever..
"Cheri" <cher...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11906-39...@storefull-268.iap.bryant.webtv.net...