So quiet in here. Everyone Chrismas shopping?
Mike M.
months. But even considering the time of year, it still seems awfully quiet
in here.
Hell, I didn't even notice any posts from happy-go-lucky Rod. Something is
definitely wrong. Nothing to read aside from spam/cross-posted messages.
I downloaded 1,000 headers from my Outlook reader, but almost no poster
names looked familiar. Same thing when I clicked the next 1,000 - nothing
but spam and rambling, nonsensical cross-posted messages (appear to be a LOT
more whackos cross-posting than normally the case.)
Anyway, to keep things on topic, I'm saving money on Christmas expenses this
year - and contributing to the "Green" movement at the same time - by
cutting back on two things: no outside Christmas lights (or inside for that
matter) and no Christmas tree. Just my small part/sacrifice, in the name of
saving our planet...
Mike
Gordon
"Mike M." <st...@shovel.com> wrote in
news:d%Z8j.23658$_m.2...@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
Don K
news:d%Z8j.23658$_m.2...@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> Anyway, to keep things on topic, I'm saving money on Christmas expenses this year - and
> contributing to the "Green" movement at the same time - by cutting back on two things:
> no outside Christmas lights (or inside for that matter) and no Christmas tree. Just my
> small part/sacrifice, in the name of saving our planet...
I got a freecycled artificial tree a couple years ago. Last year the kids
wanted a real one, but this year I'm going to use the freecycle one again.
Although it looks fine, I do like a real one better also.
We have a new dog (also recycled) this year and I'm hoping he won't pee
on the fake tree or chew the ornaments.
Don
Dennis
wrote:
We got a tree from my neighbor's U-cut lot. $10 for a nice 8ft
Douglas Fir.
We also have a new dog -- our first dog in 20 years with an intact
tail. So now there are no ornaments on the tree below about the 2ft
level. I think the dog and the kitten have formed some kind of pact
-- the dog sweeps the ornaments off the tree and then the kitten
chases them across the floor and eventually bats them under the couch.
The joys of Christmas.
Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin
Mike M.
"Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote in message
news:ybudnSQ4T7-B7_na...@comcast.com...
> I got a freecycled artificial tree a couple years ago. Last year the kids
> wanted a real one, but this year I'm going to use the freecycle one again.
> Although it looks fine, I do like a real one better also.
Yes, and of course the smell of a real tree can't be duplicated (that canned
"Christmas Tree Scent" smells awful.)
But I think the last year I had a real tree was 198x. Inherited at least
two fake trees in the '90s, as various family members moved out of state.
Actually it was that act that played a large part in why I chose to stop
putting up a tree altogether years ago. Single with no kids, I still went
through the motions each Christmas as my three siblings, all married with
young (at the time) children, visited frequently. But one by one they all
moved away (including my mother as well.)
Didn't see the point in continuing the annual tree unpacking/outside light
putting-up ritual. Kids, as may be the case in your situation, do seem to
enjoy Christmas decorations most. As an adult, I can take it or leave it
(mostly leave, as you may have guessed by now.)
Still have a small Charlie Brown-like tree stashed in a 55-Gal. RubberMaid
container - along with other Christmas decorations - but it hasn't seen the
light of day in years. Tempted to tote the whole damn thing down to the
curb for bulk pick-up on more than one occasion, but have always held back
(maybe next Christmas...)
> We have a new dog (also recycled) this year and I'm hoping he won't pee
> on the fake tree or chew the ornaments.
One word: fish. Hands down the best pet of all. I'll never own another cat
or dog again. In addition to not having to worry about them peeing on the
carpet, there is no emotional attachment. When they die, the crabs take
care of all the unpleasant burial arrangements. Saltwater aquariums are
more difficult to maintain than fresh, but in my case it helps that a fresh
(and free) stock of colorful fishies can be had in just a few minutes
drive...
Mike
Donna
@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
> Nothing to read aside from spam/cross-posted messages.
I've been seeing a lot of spam, Mike. It kinda sucks, but doesn't stop me
from reading the posts that make it through that aren't spam ;)
--
~Donna
http://www.frugalsewing.com
Reduce, reuse, recycle, re-create.
Donna
> I got a freecycled artificial tree a couple years ago. Last year the
> kids wanted a real one, but this year I'm going to use the freecycle
> one again. Although it looks fine, I do like a real one better also.
I just gave a tree to a freecycle buddy. She just moved to the area and
just wanted something small to get her started. I am constantly giving and
sometimes taking with local freecycle and recycle lists.
I learned about it here some time ago. Someone called it 'preemptive
dumpster diving' and I love it.
Dawn
>On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:32:43 -0500, "Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com>
>wrote:
>>I got a freecycled artificial tree a couple years ago. Last year the kids
>>wanted a real one, but this year I'm going to use the freecycle one again.
>>Although it looks fine, I do like a real one better also.
>>
>>We have a new dog (also recycled) this year and I'm hoping he won't pee
>>on the fake tree or chew the ornaments.
>
>We got a tree from my neighbor's U-cut lot. $10 for a nice 8ft
>Douglas Fir.
>
>We also have a new dog -- our first dog in 20 years with an intact
>tail. So now there are no ornaments on the tree below about the 2ft
>level. I think the dog and the kitten have formed some kind of pact
>-- the dog sweeps the ornaments off the tree and then the kitten
>chases them across the floor and eventually bats them under the couch.
>The joys of Christmas.
>
>
Our tree came out of our yard this morning. All set up now and
decorated.
Dawn, whose kitten has been nosing around it and who likes a real
tree, which is why we grow them in our yard.
timeOday
Yeah, this NG is really suffering with the spam lately, to the point of
driving away the actual content.
Now, about Christmas trees and the environment...
For my own family, going to the national forest to cut a tree has become
one of my favorite Christmas traditions. I do flinch as I see a
procession of tree-laden cars leaving the forest. But then, pine is a
fast-growing wood. I am strongly in favor of regulation to ensure the
tree harvest is done in a sustainable way, and I think for the most part
this is already the case. I believe each permit we buy from the forest
service to harvest a tree pays for the planting of several more. Among
trees purchased from lots, I think most are farmed.
Granted, driving to the forest and cutting a tree still takes more fuel
and money than going without.
James
As heard on CBC radio this morning....
Real Christmas trees increase the amount of mould in your house.
They will be doing a larger study this year, but the limited study
last year asserted that the amount of mould in a sample house
increased 5 times from normal.
Their suggestions:
Have the tree up for a shorter time, the mould buildup increases over
time.
Put plastic sheeting under the tree to ensure the needles don't get
into the carpet.
Don't place the tree near an outside wall - the cool walls collect
condensation more.
For the record I love live trees, but have used artificial since we
have had pets.
James
nos...@nospam.com
Even though I live in logging town on the edge of a National
Forest I won't go cut a live tree. We have a fake tree and feel good about not
killing a tree each year. We see enough dead trees going past on the logging
train everyday.
Marsha
> Now, about Christmas trees and the environment...
> For my own family, going to the national forest to cut a tree has become
> one of my favorite Christmas traditions. I do flinch as I see a
> procession of tree-laden cars leaving the forest. But then, pine is a
> fast-growing wood. I am strongly in favor of regulation to ensure the
> tree harvest is done in a sustainable way, and I think for the most part
> this is already the case. I believe each permit we buy from the forest
> service to harvest a tree pays for the planting of several more. Among
> trees purchased from lots, I think most are farmed.
Does anyone really need a live tree that bad? Can't you make an
artificial one just as lovely? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
Marsha/Ohio
Dennis
>Does anyone really need a live tree that bad? Can't you make an
>artificial one just as lovely? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
>cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
>make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
By buying a real tree from my neighbor's lot, I am helping support a
small farmer in my community. Some of the money is used to plant and
maintain more trees.
Dennis (evil)
--
The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.
Donna
@4ax.com:
> By buying a real tree from my neighbor's lot, I am helping support a
> small farmer in my community. Some of the money is used to plant and
> maintain more trees.
My brother in law has a Christmas tree farm. For every tree he cuts, he
plants another. It is self-sustaining now after several years. He also
reforested several acres on his propery and that doesn't get cut at all.
Responsible stewards of the land who live off the income from trees, be
they for Christmas, lumbar, or firewood, always replant what they take
down. I prefer my little fake Charlie Brown tree (it really is pitiful, but
I love it), but think if you do make certain you're buying from a re-
forestation type tree lot, you're not doing anything "wrong."
Don K
> Does anyone really need a live tree that bad? Can't you make an artificial one just as
> lovely? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to cut down a live tree and then discard it
> when you're done just does not make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
>
The first year I bought my house I got a live tree with a rootbag.
I decorated it and kept it on the deck outside a sliding glass door
to the living room.
Then after the New Year, I planted it.
I also had sent off 5 or 10 bucks for some Norway Spruce seed.
I was surprised when I got a few thousand seeds in the mail!
I planted a couple hundred, but we moved before they grew to a
useable height.
Don
val189
that's it. I marvel at the people who are feeling the strain of the
season and ask why they just don't make it all stop. Buy a few things
for the kids and let the adult obligatory exchange screech to a halt.
No one will hate or sue you.
Marsha
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:04:47 -0500, Marsha <m...@xeb.net> wrote:
>
>>Does anyone really need a live tree that bad? Can't you make an
>>artificial one just as lovely? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
>>cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
>>make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
>
>
> By buying a real tree from my neighbor's lot, I am helping support a
> small farmer in my community. Some of the money is used to plant and
> maintain more trees.
>
> Dennis (evil)
I'm all for helping support small farmers, but correct me if this is
wrong. New trees can't grow as fast as the old ones are cut down, right?
Marsha/Ohio
Marsha
Now that's something I heartily support! It would be great if more
people would re-plant their live Christmas trees or, if they couldn't,
give them to someone who could.
Marsha/Ohio
max
Correct, you are wrong. You need to read up on sustainable
silvaculture, and forrestry. Hell, you're posting from a german
server, which suggests you're in germany. A german should know better.
--
The part of betatron @ earthlink . net was played by a garden gnome
The Real Bev
> Does anyone really need a live tree that bad? Can't you make an
> artificial one just as lovely? I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
> cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
> make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
Several years ago I picked out of somebody's trash a 2-foot-high
carefully-shaped conical Xmas tree that the owners had (a) placed in
front of a heater so that a lot of it was dead; and (b) hadn't realized
that live trees need water. I think it was the same house that had a
little rosemary xmas tree the year before that was unresurrectible.
The little pine is still alive and growing, more or less, but its scars
will never really heal. Maybe I'll decorate it this year...
--
Cheers, Bev
========================================================
If I gave a shit, you'd be the first one I'd give it to.
Logan Shaw
> I'm all for helping support small farmers, but correct me if this is
> wrong. New trees can't grow as fast as the old ones are cut down, right?
That question is impossible to answer because it depends on how many are
cut down every year.
- Logan
val189
From a frugal standpoint, a good artificial a tree will amortize
itself down to a few bucks as the years roll by and you smugly haul it
out one more time. Although, I will admit there's nothing like the
aroma of a real tree.
Mine is prelit, umbrellas into a tree in a trice. Toss on a few
ornaments and it's done.
Dennis
>Dennis wrote:
>> By buying a real tree from my neighbor's lot, I am helping support a
>> small farmer in my community. Some of the money is used to plant and
>> maintain more trees.
>
>I'm all for helping support small farmers, but correct me if this is
>wrong. New trees can't grow as fast as the old ones are cut down, right?
I'm not sure I understand your point. Certainly, you can replant one
(or more) new trees for each one cut down. Once the initial crop
matures, assuming a more or less constant demand, you will have the
same number of new trees maturing in a given year as you want to cut.
Marsha
>>>On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:04:47 -0500, Marsha <m...@xeb.net> wrote:
>>I'm all for helping support small farmers, but correct me if this is
>>wrong. New trees can't grow as fast as the old ones are cut down, right?
>>
>>Marsha/Ohio
>
> Correct, you are wrong. You need to read up on sustainable
> silvaculture, and forrestry. Hell, you're posting from a german
> server, which suggests you're in germany. A german should know better.
Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem (see signature
line). You might want to check out datemas.de, which is a free
newsgroup server for anyone, even subhumans, including you.
Marsha/Ohio
Marsha
>>>By buying a real tree from my neighbor's lot, I am helping support a
>>>small farmer in my community. Some of the money is used to plant and
>>>maintain more trees.
>>
>>I'm all for helping support small farmers, but correct me if this is
>>wrong. New trees can't grow as fast as the old ones are cut down, right?
>
> I'm not sure I understand your point. Certainly, you can replant one
> (or more) new trees for each one cut down. Once the initial crop
> matures, assuming a more or less constant demand, you will have the
> same number of new trees maturing in a given year as you want to cut.
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people want
live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually exceed
supply? For example, if you have a tree farm with 100 trees and 50
people take trees, you re-plant 50 trees. The next year, you only have
50 trees to offer because it's going to take years for your
newly-planted trees to develop, but 50 or more people want your trees,
well you eventually won't have any trees ready. I'm really trying to
understand this processs, honestly.
Marsha/Ohio
Rod Speed
You just plant enough trees so that you can supply X trees per year.
Once you have sold X trees in a particular year, you just say that
all the trees are gone for that year. You then plant another X trees
and do that year after year after year.
Corse you actually need to plant more than just X because some may
die before ready to be xmas trees, but that doesnt change the basics.
Marsha
> Marsha <m...@xeb.net> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm really trying to understand this processs, honestly.
>
> Well, exactly what parts of demand, supply and price elude you?
Oh, stop it. If demand outpaces supply, then you will eventually run
out, right? You have 100 trees and 50 get cut down. You can only
replace the 50 that were cut down. These 50 will not be mature for
years. I really do need someone to explain this to me in simple English.
Marsha/Ohio
231
You just plant enough trees so that you can supply X trees per year.
Anthony Matonak
> From a frugal standpoint, a good artificial a tree will amortize
> itself down to a few bucks as the years roll by and you smugly haul it
> out one more time. Although, I will admit there's nothing like the
> aroma of a real tree.
There is nothing like the aroma of any dying organism. Some people
find flowers particularly pleasant as they die but find skunks less
pleasing.
That said, I've gone one step better than artificial. Mine is entirely
imaginary. It's easy to setup, take down, store, decorate and move from
place to place. My neighbor has one too after he heard about mine one
year. Unfortunately, he had to do one better and made his invisible.
Personally, I just don't see it.
Anthony
clams casino
>
> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people
> want live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually
> exceed supply? For example, if you have a tree farm with 100 trees
> and 50 people take trees, you re-plant 50 trees. The next year, you
> only have 50 trees to offer because it's going to take years for your
> newly-planted trees to develop, but 50 or more people want your trees,
> well you eventually won't have any trees ready. I'm really trying to
> understand this processs, honestly.
>
> Marsha/Ohio
>
Hint - DON'T attempt to start any businesses.
clams casino
For a start, one does not have all their trees of the same age.
Chloe
>
> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people want
> live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually exceed
> supply?
Yes, and if fewer people want live trees than what are planted, the supply
will exceed the demand. I recall more than once driving by tree farms here
in the Midwest where there are fields and fields full of trees that have
obviously matured past the point of being practical to harvest. I think it's
a good bet they were not harvested in order to avoid glutting the market and
driving the price down.
Sorry, but this is a tough one to try to make into a major environmental
issue.
max
Marsha, Marsha, Marsha...
are you in mensa? Go to a lot of science fiction conventions? how's
the clutter management going? Got those newspapers lined up in nice
little canyons?
>
> Marsha/Ohio
is that what that meant? oh. I stopped reading after the body of your
text, Marsha. Of course, you're arguing with a garden gnome, so what do
you expect?
Ok, Marsha, Christmas trees have been a sustainable production business
in this country (the united states, which is where you live) for at
least two to three generations.
You might want to read up on sustainable forrestry and silvaculture.
Stop being such an ignorant American. All domestically harvested forest
products are sustainably harvested, to the 99% level, if for no other
reason than there isn't any (significant) old-growth left.
I'm surprised at your ignorance, Marsha. Clearly, you're a product of
the American education system, and everything we've come to expect from
modern American pedagogical techniques.
I just wonder, are you innumerate, of just can't think very well?
.max
barbie gee
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007, Chloe wrote:
> "Marsha" <m...@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fkf94c$eic$1...@news.datemas.de...
>>
>> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people want
>> live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually exceed
>> supply?
>
> Yes, and if fewer people want live trees than what are planted, the supply
> will exceed the demand. I recall more than once driving by tree farms here
> in the Midwest where there are fields and fields full of trees that have
> obviously matured past the point of being practical to harvest. I think it's
> a good bet they were not harvested in order to avoid glutting the market and
> driving the price down.
and, I've yet to see a tree lot "sell out", and I live in a major
metropolis, not a podunk with a limited market. Maybe those last trees
are rejects, but they remain unsold, whatever the reason.
Marsha's thinking is painfully linear. There are the different varieties
of trees, trees of different sizes (meaning ages) and so forth. There is
NOT simple cut one-replace one system going on here.
Dennis
>Oh, stop it. If demand outpaces supply, then you will eventually run
>out, right? You have 100 trees and 50 get cut down. You can only
>replace the 50 that were cut down. These 50 will not be mature for
>years. I really do need someone to explain this to me in simple English.
Suppose it takes 8 years for a tree seedling to mature to a saleable
Christmas tree. Further, say you plan to sell 100 trees per season.
The first year you plant 100 seedlings (plus maybe some extra to
account for loss). The next year you plant the same number, repeating
this each successive year. In the eighth year, you harvest the first
100 trees and plant new trees to replace them. In the ninth year, you
harvest and replace the next 100 to mature, and so on. As long as you
keep this up, there will always be about 100 mature trees to harvest
each Christmas.
Of course, the numbers can be adjusted as necessary each year.
BTW, most of the smaller woodlot operations that I am familiar with
(including mine) do it for tax purposes. Most of the property taxes
on the land in production are deferred until the sale of the wood
product (Christmas trees, timber, firewood, etc.). In the case of a
timber woodlot like mine, that can be 15-20 years until the first
commercial thinning harvest.
Marsha
> Suppose it takes 8 years for a tree seedling to mature to a saleable
> Christmas tree. Further, say you plan to sell 100 trees per season.
> The first year you plant 100 seedlings (plus maybe some extra to
> account for loss). The next year you plant the same number, repeating
> this each successive year. In the eighth year, you harvest the first
> 100 trees and plant new trees to replace them. In the ninth year, you
> harvest and replace the next 100 to mature, and so on. As long as you
> keep this up, there will always be about 100 mature trees to harvest
> each Christmas.
>
> Of course, the numbers can be adjusted as necessary each year.
>
> BTW, most of the smaller woodlot operations that I am familiar with
> (including mine) do it for tax purposes. Most of the property taxes
> on the land in production are deferred until the sale of the wood
> product (Christmas trees, timber, firewood, etc.). In the case of a
> timber woodlot like mine, that can be 15-20 years until the first
> commercial thinning harvest.
>
>
> Dennis (evil)
> --
> The honest man is the one who realizes that he cannot
> consume more, in his lifetime, than he produces.
Okay, I get it now. This was just one of those things that needed an
explanation or example different than what I was thinking. Enjoy your tree!
Marsha/Ohio
Marsha
I'm a much better indian than a chief.
Marsha/Ohio
Marsha
>>> live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually exceed
>>> supply?
>>
>>
>> Yes, and if fewer people want live trees than what are planted, the
>> supply
>> will exceed the demand. I recall more than once driving by tree farms
>> here
>> in the Midwest where there are fields and fields full of trees that have
>> obviously matured past the point of being practical to harvest. I
>> think it's
>> a good bet they were not harvested in order to avoid glutting the
>> market and
>> driving the price down.
>
>
> and, I've yet to see a tree lot "sell out", and I live in a major
> metropolis, not a podunk with a limited market. Maybe those last trees
> are rejects, but they remain unsold, whatever the reason.
>
> Marsha's thinking is painfully linear. There are the different
> varieties of trees, trees of different sizes (meaning ages) and so
> forth. There is NOT simple cut one-replace one system going on here.
Painfully linear? That hurts :-) It was just a simple "I don't quite
understand business" statement. Obviously I don't belong to Mensa in
that department.
Marsha/Ohio
Marsha
> Marsha <m...@xeb.net> wrote:
>>I don't mean to offend anyone, but to
>>cut down a live tree and then discard it when you're done just does not
>>make sense to me, even if it is from a "tree farm".
>
> Funny, that's exactly how some folks feel about commercially grown
> flowers.
Flowers that die and get thrown away are not a practical gift, IMO. It
makes more sense to get something that can be re-planted, so you can
enjoy it for years.
Marsha/Ohio
Lou
"Marsha" <m...@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fkhm3f$qd9$1...@news.datemas.de...
Cut flowers aren't meant to be practical. They're meant to be pretty.
Sometimes they're meant to show that the giver is well enough off that every
decision doesn't have to be ruled by strict practicality. Even when the
whatever could be replanted, that doesn't necessarily mean that you could
enjoy flowers in the middle of winter, a time when some people might
appreciate them the most. And oh yeah, a good many flowers are annuals, and
even if replanted, wouldn't last beyond one season anyway.
Marsha
Obviously cut flowers aren't meant to be practical and obviously some
are only annuals. That's why I don't like them. I don't enjoy looking
at flowers for a few days, watching them die, and then throwing them
away. When I mentioned re-planting, I meant something suitable to plant
outdoors for the giftee's climate or something that could be grown in
indoors.
Marsha/Ohio
Marsha/Ohio
Dennis
>Okay, I get it now. This was just one of those things that needed an
>explanation or example different than what I was thinking. Enjoy your tree!
Thank you -- Happy Holidays to you too!
I'm not sure how what seemed (to me) like an innocent question about
Christmas trees engendered so many nasty replies. Kind of ironic,
given the original subject of the thread. Maybe all the spam has put
folks in flame-first-ask-questions-later mode.
Dennis (evil)
--
I'm behind the eight ball, ahead of the curve, riding the wave,
dodging the bullet and pushing the envelope. -George Carlin
Mike M.
"Marsha" <m...@xeb.net> wrote in message news:fkhrvk$1bc$1...@news.datemas.de...
Or, as it relates to dead Christmas trees, their post-life usefulness
(mainly in the form of mulch - our city gathers and chips the trees, then
gives away the mulch to area residents and/or distributes the waste product
at various local parks/median strips) continues on long after they have
served their main purpose.
"Green", brown... I guess it's all the same. Their death is not totally in
vain (more free mulch for me!)
Mike
--treeless, in accordance with my own personal beliefs, though I respect
(and defend) others' right to choose
barbie gee
C'mon girlfriend, let your fingers do the Googling;
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree_cultivation>
<http://www.salary.com/careers/layouthtmls/crel_display_Cat10_Ser132_Par232.html>
and so on.
Jon v Leipzig
> Haven't been reading/posting to the group all that frequently in recent
> months. But even considering the time of year, it still seems awfully quiet
> in here.
>
> Hell, I didn't even notice any posts from happy-go-lucky Rod. Something is
> definitely wrong. Nothing to read aside from spam/cross-posted messages.
>
> I downloaded 1,000 headers from my Outlook reader, but almost no poster
> names looked familiar. Same thing when I clicked the next 1,000 - nothing
> but spam and rambling, nonsensical cross-posted messages (appear to be a LOT
> more whackos cross-posting than normally the case.)
>
> Anyway, to keep things on topic, I'm saving money on Christmas expenses this
> year - and contributing to the "Green" movement at the same time - by
> cutting back on two things: no outside Christmas lights (or inside for that
> matter) and no Christmas tree. Just my small part/sacrifice, in the name of
> saving our planet...
>
I got my Frugal tree last summer. A small plastic tree was leftover from
a moving sale.
Might as well shop till ya drop...this "trends researcher" thinks this
xmas shopping season might be our last hurrah.
This dude correctly predicted the crash of '87, the dotcom boom/bust,
and the housing bubble. Gets favorable reviews from WSJ, Bizzweek,
msnbc, and others.
Forecast: U.S. dollar could plunge 90 pct
- A financial crisis will likely send the U.S. dollar into a free fall
of as much as 90 percent and gold soaring to $2,000 an ounce, a trends
researcher said.
[ .........]
A result will be a drop in holiday spending a year from now, followed by
a permanent end of the "retail holiday frenzy" that has driven the U.S.
economy since the 1940s, he said.
----------
Those who take their predictions seriously ... consider the Trends
Research Institute. — The Wall Street Journal
clams_casino
>>
>> --
>
>
> I'll admit my thinking processes are not normal, but if more people
> want live trees than what are planted, won't the demand eventually
> exceed supply? For example, if you have a tree farm with 100 trees
> and 50 people take trees, you re-plant 50 trees. The next year, you
> only have 50 trees to offer because it's going to take years for your
> newly-planted trees to develop, but 50 or more people want your trees,
> well you eventually won't have any trees ready. I'm really trying to
> understand this processs, honestly.
>
> Marsha/Ohio
>
OK - Some Facts per This Week (Dec28-Jan11)
Two out of three homes in US will have a real tree (29M in 2007 / $1.2B)
which will be cut in a five week season
15k commercial tree growers plant 73M trees/yr on 450k acres across
every state
It takes 6-10 years for a tree to reach a saleable condition (about
2k/acre) - where many die along the way
Most popular - Scotch pine (40%), Douglas Fir (35%) with noble fir,
white pine, balsam fir & white spruce at about 15% each
2007 - 9.3M artificial trees sold averaging $68 mostly imported from
China (up from 2M just five years ago) vs. $40 for a cut tree
Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
centuries when discarded into landfills
Researchers estimate it takes five times more energy to make and ship a
fake vs. cut tree
Downside to cut trees is that each requires about 0.5 oz of pesticides
Each acre of a typical tree farm produces enough O2 to sustain 18 people
which also absorbs the CO2 produced by two cars for one year (26K miles)
Lou
"clams_casino" <PeterG...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
news:Fkhbj.24347$Wt7....@newsfe14.phx...
> >
> OK - Some Facts per This Week (Dec28-Jan11)
>
> Two out of three homes in US will have a real tree (29M in 2007 / $1.2B)
> which will be cut in a five week season
>
> 15k commercial tree growers plant 73M trees/yr on 450k acres across
> every state
>
> It takes 6-10 years for a tree to reach a saleable condition (about
> 2k/acre) - where many die along the way
>
> Most popular - Scotch pine (40%), Douglas Fir (35%) with noble fir,
> white pine, balsam fir & white spruce at about 15% each
>
> 2007 - 9.3M artificial trees sold averaging $68 mostly imported from
> China (up from 2M just five years ago) vs. $40 for a cut tree
Judging from my local shopping experience, a $68 artificial tree is three to
four foot table-top size, not a floor to ceiling seven to eight foot tree.
Haven't seen any full size "real" trees for $40 in this area for years,
maybe decades.
> Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
> centuries when discarded into landfills
Apparently, aritificial trees average a four to five year useful life...
> Researchers estimate it takes five times more energy to make and ship a
> fake vs. cut tree
...so it appears to more or less average out, energy wise.
> Downside to cut trees is that each requires about 0.5 oz of pesticides
>
> Each acre of a typical tree farm produces enough O2 to sustain 18 people
> which also absorbs the CO2 produced by two cars for one year (26K
miles)
My real tree cost $60 this year. Comparable artificial trees seem to be
$200 and up. Cost-wise, if the figures on average useful life are correct,
it seems to be pretty much a wash. Where artificial trees win out is on the
fuss and muss - as I get older every year, the ease of an artificial tree
gets more attractive.
clams_casino
another source of Christmas tree facts, although much of the data appear
to be from 2002 - http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/trees/treefacts.html
Don K
news:oYWdneHtdqhcN_Da...@comcast.com...
>
> "clams_casino" <PeterG...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
> news:Fkhbj.24347$Wt7....@newsfe14.phx...
>> Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
>> centuries when discarded into landfills
>
> Apparently, aritificial trees average a four to five year useful life...
I wonder where that came from.
I know 2 other people who have artificial trees. They have both
had them at least 20 years.
It seems to me, as long as you have space to store it properly,
it should last a very long time.
Don
Dennis
<lpogoda...@comcast.net> wrote:
>My real tree cost $60 this year. Comparable artificial trees seem to be
>$200 and up. Cost-wise, if the figures on average useful life are correct,
>it seems to be pretty much a wash. Where artificial trees win out is on the
>fuss and muss - as I get older every year, the ease of an artificial tree
>gets more attractive.
Just for comparison, I paid US$10 for an 8ft (cut size) nicely shaped
and manicured Douglas fir Christmas tree this year. I did walk out in
the muddy tree lot and cut it myself, but that assured me a fresh
tree. I can certainly imagine a day when I will not want to do that,
but for now it seems like part of the whole holiday tradition.
imascot
news:oYWdneHtdqhcN_Da...@comcast.com:
> My real tree cost $60 this year. Comparable artificial trees seem to
> be $200 and up. Cost-wise, if the figures on average useful life are
> correct, it seems to be pretty much a wash. Where artificial trees
> win out is on the fuss and muss - as I get older every year, the ease
> of an artificial tree gets more attractive.
>
>
We've had our artificial tree for 13 years now, but I think it's more work than a real one. You
have to spread out each individual branch then insert it into the trunk. When you take it down,
you have to re-compact each branch to fit it into the box. I don't know why the average lifespan
of an artificial tree should only be 3 to 4 years, as someone quoted. We expect ours to last many
more years.
It's very realistic-looking, however, it even has little brownish pieces at the tips, and wound along
the branches. Many times people did not realize it was artificial.
J.
Don K
> one. You
> have to spread out each individual branch then insert it into the trunk. When you take
> it down,
> you have to re-compact each branch to fit it into the box. I don't know why the average
> lifespan
> of an artificial tree should only be 3 to 4 years, as someone quoted. We expect ours to
> last many
> more years.
The 6.5 foot artificial tree we got from freecycle, separates into 3 sections
and all the limbs fold up like an umbrella. Likewise minimal assembly is required
for the lights. Just plug the daisy chains together, end-to-end.
Don
Dennis
<snipped>
Well done! If entertaining tales such as this are the result, I feel
compelled to contribute to your scotch fund.
Dennis (evil)
--
I'm a hands-on, footloose, knee-jerk head case. -George Carlin
hchi...@hotmail.com
>DW&I are contemplating/planning leaving the hovel for
>slightly more upscale (well, at least more comfortable but not
>ostentatious) digs, perhaps even doing a "Chickpea", that is, bolting
>from Florida, which has become unlivable, largely due to the flood of
>New Yorkers and South Americans which threatens to overwhelm all life in
>the Sunshine State. I won't even mention the confiscatory ad valorum
>taxes and insurance premiums. Oops....
Heh, a brief update on the Chickpea journey -
We've been unpacking like crazy in preparation for Mrs. Chickpea's
first Christmas with her family for years. The fire in the fireplace
has been burning and largely heating the place, and the world around
here is quiet and peaceful.
Back in Florida, I could literally sense a pervasive tightness and
anger in the collective psyche from the the freneticism and tension
around Christmas. Aside from a little traffic insanity around
Huntsville, I haven't felt that here at all. Think of it as no longer
having a throbbing headache for a month out of the year.
Our decision to go with a manufactured home was a huge success. The
high levels of insulation in particular are making us happy campers.
Unlike any other house we have owned, there are NO drafts or constant
feeling of being cold, even in a room that supposedly is close to 80
degrees. We keep the temperature about 67 here, start a fire, and are
perfectly comfortable. For the overnight hours, the master bedroom
and bath are heated by an electric space heater that operates only
about half the time on an 800 watt setting, even with outside temps in
the 20s and 30s and winds blowing. No point in running the heat pump
and heater strips to heat space we aren't using.
The first Christmas tree in years sits near the fireplace in the den,
near the electronic piano that the group here helped us choose. The
view is out over our own slope, the creek, and our forest running up
the other embankment. The pool remained in Florida and hasn't been
sucking in our dollars. We're just about broke as far as available
money is concerned, and have a lot of unfinished projects, but without
a mortgage, the taxes and insurance paid for a year, and a full
larder, we're in better shape overall than we would have been with
more money and the constant drain of a house in Florida. THIS is my
kind of frugal living.
Time to get back to last minute preparations. A Merry Christmas to
all.
Lou
"Don K" <dk@dont_bother_me.com> wrote in message
news:5tOdnSUaiPwlS_Da...@comcast.com...
> "Lou" <lpogoda...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:oYWdneHtdqhcN_Da...@comcast.com...
> >
> > "clams_casino" <PeterG...@DrunkinClam.com> wrote in message
> > news:Fkhbj.24347$Wt7....@newsfe14.phx...
>
> >> Artificial trees are made from polyvinyl chloride which lasts for
> >> centuries when discarded into landfills
> >
> > Apparently, aritificial trees average a four to five year useful life...
>
> I wonder where that came from.
> I know 2 other people who have artificial trees. They have both
> had them at least 20 years.
>
> It seems to me, as long as you have space to store it properly,
> it should last a very long time.
Seems like it should, but apparently, for whatever reasons, it does not.
Vic Smith
Because there are artificial trees and there are artificial trees.
Probably big quality differences.
My wife laughed when I told her about reading here suggestions
they last 4 to 5 years. Ours is 6 years old and looks like it did the
day she bought it. She paid 70 something and that was a half-price
deal right after Christmas. I yelled at her. But she's smarter than
me, and we saved a bundle, since a good tree around here, which still
won't look as good as this, is about 50 bucks. And I no longer have
to pick up and primp 50 trees a year for her to look at before she
gets the "right" one. I do miss the smell, but pine incense takes
care of that to some extent.
--Vic
Lou
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:k7m8n31d1pjo8ger2...@4ax.com...
The thing to remember is that the 4 to 5 year figure is an AVERAGE. By
definition, averages don't apply to individual cases - some people do
better, others don't do as well.
My main tree is "real". But over the years, I've also had a series of
"supplemental" artificial trees used to show off a hundred or so hand made
ornaments that we've accumulated over the last 30 years. Despite being
carefully stored in the original packaging in a cool dry cellar, they don't
last forever. I can also imagine that people get rid of artificial trees
for reasons that have nothing to do with the way they look.
Where did you get that $70 tree? We've looked at artificial trees every
year, and haven't seen anything comparable to our real tree for less than a
few hundred bucks.
Vic Smith
Yep, I don't expect it to last forever, but it might last longer than
me. I know it's not a real tree, and I always like real, but I have
been asked "is it real?" The branches have a "random" design,
so it has "character." It's 6 1/2 feet tall without stand.
We use maybe 1/4 of our ornaments on the tree, because the wife has
to buy each member of the family a new one every year. She has to
stop that.
>Where did you get that $70 tree? We've looked at artificial trees every
>year, and haven't seen anything comparable to our real tree for less than a
>few hundred bucks.
>
A place called Mil-Green in Niles, IL. They are a patio
furniture/grill retailer except around Christmas, when they sell fake
trees and other Holiday items. The tree was marked down after
Christmas, 150-160 before Christmas.
I was a little ticked when she told me she bought it, thinking she
bought one of those shiny tin trees with the revolving/projected
red/blue green, which are the only ones I'd seen before. I don't
shop much. But it's nice, and I surprised myself by liking this fake
tree from the get-go. But I'm not a forestry expert anyway.
--Vic