Reverse Hiring Bonus: Legal?
jdre...@yahoo.com
I live in a struggling manufacturing region of the country (few jobs,
high unemployment).
Since last summer I have been unemployed and pounding the pavement
looking for work. Even minimum wage (no benefit) jobs are scarce where
I live. I'm really at the end of my rope. If I don't get hired for
something soon I don't know what I'm going to do. My savings are
almost gone.
I've been considering doing something that I would have never
considered in a million years just a short time ago. I know all of you
have heard about hiring bonuses that companies offer new employees.
I'm thinking of perhaps offering a potential employer an amount of
money so that I can get a job.
I'm talking about maybe $300.00 or so. This would be a kind of
"reverse hiring bonus" I guess.
This is not a plan to offer some human resource person a "bribe" to
pick me over the other candidates. I would be offering this money to
the company itself (or small business).
What do you guys think? This is a serious post and I'm open to all
comments.
I've always been a good employee at all my other jobs. But I've never
gone thru such a problem in finding work. I don't know what I'll do if
I don't find something soon.
Is my plan even legal? Could it work for me?
Even a minimum wage job without benefits would be good.
It is near Christmas time. I'm sure there is someone out there who
would accept such an offer.
Thank you all for any replies or insight you can give.
Shawn Hirn
<32c6a717-3e3d-4078...@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
jdre...@yahoo.com wrote:
I understand that you are desparate for a job, but I doubt this idea
would pan out. Hiring someone is a major commitment. I seriously doubt
$300 would make all that big a difference to a company who could afford
to hire you. What might be better is to offer to work for free for a
week at a place where they might be tempted to hire you, but aren't
ready to make the commitment. Another option to consider is to move to
an area where jobs are available.
Don K
news:32c6a717-3e3d-4078...@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Hello. I have a question that I hope I can receive some feedback on.
>
> Thank you all for any replies or insight you can give.
It's probably fraught with risks for the employer.
A variation on the theme might be more attractive.
Offer to prove yourself by working for no pay on a trial basis for
a short period of time.
If they are not satisfied with your work, they can ask you to leave
with no further complications. If they do like your work, they can
then offer you the paying job.
Don
George Grapman
No matter how desperate you are never let an employer know that.
Better to go on your local craigslist and check out the "Etc.jobs",
George Grapman
> <jdre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:32c6a717-3e3d-4078...@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> Hello. I have a question that I hope I can receive some feedback on.
> would accept such an offer.
>> Thank you all for any replies or insight you can give.
>
> It's probably fraught with risks for the employer.
>
> A variation on the theme might be more attractive.
> Offer to prove yourself by working for no pay on a trial basis for
> a short period of time.
Actually I did this several times. When satellite dishes were,big,
ugly and expensive I approached a company about a sales job. I told them
that since I already had a job I would not be desperate to close a sale
and offered to work on commission only for 30 days to see how things
worked out. Three weeks later I was offered a paid position.
Years later I had similar results with another job. In both cases the
companies were not actively looking but they understood that if I had no
trouble cold calling for a job I would readily do that looking for
customers.
timeOday
> No matter how desperate you are never let an employer know that.
Bingo. Aside from any rational reason, it's a turn-off. You have to
give the impression they'd be lucky to have you.
sno
If you have a temp hiring place in your area get a job through them....
a number of employers use them to get permanent people, after they
have checked them out as temps...
hope helps...have fun....sno
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SpammersDie
>
> I live in a struggling manufacturing region of the country (few jobs,
> high unemployment).
>
> Since last summer I have been unemployed and pounding the pavement
> looking for work. Even minimum wage (no benefit) jobs are scarce where
> I live. I'm really at the end of my rope. If I don't get hired for
> something soon I don't know what I'm going to do. My savings are
> almost gone.
>
> I've been considering doing something that I would have never
> considered in a million years just a short time ago. I know all of you
> have heard about hiring bonuses that companies offer new employees.
>
> I'm thinking of perhaps offering a potential employer an amount of
> money so that I can get a job.
>
> I'm talking about maybe $300.00 or so. This would be a kind of
> "reverse hiring bonus" I guess.
>
> This is not a plan to offer some human resource person a "bribe" to
> pick me over the other candidates. I would be offering this money to
> the company itself (or small business).
>
> What do you guys think? This is a serious post and I'm open to all
> comments.
>
> I've always been a good employee at all my other jobs. But I've never
> gone thru such a problem in finding work. I don't know what I'll do if
> I don't find something soon.
>
> Is my plan even legal? Could it work for me?
$300 is nothing compared to the cost of hiring the wrong person. (And in
this legal environment, making a bad hire is a decision that's damned
expensive to reverse. Employees have one of the most customer-hostile
cancellation policies of any industry.)
All this move would do is signal that you can't sign up any customers for
your services and you're at the point of desperation.
Even if true, that's the last signal you ever want to give to a prospective
customer. You probably are unconsciously giving off such signals which may
be one reason why you're not landing any business.
Your real problem is market targeting - if you're in the business of
supplying manufacturing services, then don't concentrate your advertising in
a "struggling manufacturing region." Target some other region where the
market for your services isn't so saturated or diversity to other skills
where demand is higher and there is more profit potential.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
"Shawn Hirn" <sr...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:srhi-4B6395.2...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article
snip
> I understand that you are desparate for a job, but I doubt this idea
> would pan out. Hiring someone is a major commitment. I seriously doubt
> $300 would make all that big a difference to a company who could afford
> to hire you. What might be better is to offer to work for free for a
> week at a place where they might be tempted to hire you, but aren't
> ready to make the commitment. Another option to consider is to move to
> an area where jobs are available.
i'm not sure it's legal to work for free (off the clock), even voluntarily,
at a regular type company.
>
George Grapman
those jobs took out out no payroll deductions. The companies liked it
because they avoided Social Security, unemployment,etc while some worker
likes the idea of no withholding and they simply ignored the yearly 1099.
In the 90's the IRS ruled that if the company provides you with a
place to work along with needed tools you are a commissioned employee
and are subject to withholding.
scrapq...@gmail.com
wrote:
> i'm not sure it's legal to work for free (off the clock), even voluntarily,
> at a regular type company.
Sure there is, it is called an Internship.
Don K
news:t2z5j.6197$3W.3606@trndny04...
> i'm not sure it's legal to work for free (off the clock), even voluntarily, at a regular
> type company.
I would think that if you are dealing with the owner of a small business,
there is a lot of latitude in that regard. After all, it's a free country and
people are entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Of course that assumes there aren't issues with existing contracts, OSHA,
union agreements, insurance clauses, etc.
Don
Lou
It's not legal to work for free - federal and state minimum wage laws apply.
Lou
"George Grapman" <sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote in message
news:1Mz5j.79375$Um6....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
Even in commission only jobs, the employer must pay you a minimum wage if
you don't earn that much in commissions. It's usually done as a draw
against commission, and you pay the employer back when your earn commissions
in excess of minimum wage.
Lou
"pep...@prodigy.net" <scrapq...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dcbd6556-09d0-4a34...@e1g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
The US Department of Labor has a set of 6 criteria used in determining if an
employee is entitled to at least minimum wage or is a learner/trainee who
may be unpaid.
1. The training is similar to what would be given in a vocational school
2. The training if for the benefit of the student
3. The student does not displace a regular employee
4. The employer provides the training, derives no immediate advantage from
the student's activities - on occasion, normal operations may be impeded by
training
5. The student is not entitled to a regular job at the end of the
internship
6. Both the employer and the student understand that the student is not
entitled to wages for the time spent training.
The idea is that the interns experience should look like a training/learning
experience rather than like a job.
Unpaid internships exist all over the place, but generally in a for-profit
corporation, time worked should be paid for. At my company, interns get
$20/hour.
George Grapman
And,by law, an intern can not be performing work that would normally
be done by a paid employee.In addition the work must be of educational
value to the intern.
George Grapman
They were all from other countries and were here on student visas. Most
of the work we gave them involved calling up companies in their home
countries and getting contact information using their native language.
We also allowed them to practice English by taking incoming calls. WE
never had a paid receptionist. We knew they could not be paid so the
most we could for them was treating them to lunch.
George Grapman
think, the early 90's the definition of independent contractor was
changed to meet the criteria that I mentioned in my earlier post.
Shawn Hirn
"AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Why? If we are referring to the United States, its a free country. If
you are willing to work for free, I don't know of any area where that
would be illegal. If you do have an example where volunteering to work
is illegal, please provide the details.
Shawn Hirn
George Grapman <sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
Please cite that law.
Shawn Hirn
"Lou" <lpogoda...@comcast.net> wrote:
Nonsense. Those laws refer to wage earners. A volunteer would be exempt.
George Grapman
non-profit group.
Logan Shaw
> I live in a struggling manufacturing region of the country (few jobs,
> high unemployment).
>
> Since last summer I have been unemployed and pounding the pavement
> looking for work. Even minimum wage (no benefit) jobs are scarce where
> I live. I'm really at the end of my rope. If I don't get hired for
> something soon I don't know what I'm going to do. My savings are
> almost gone.
I know this is probably not what you want to hear, but I would move.
The job market is pretty good right now. It's not a boom precisely,
but it's relatively easy to get a job as far as I can tell. I am the
last person who ever wants to move for a job (done it and didn't like
it), and life is not all about money, but I personally think you have
to ask yourself whether it's really worth it to stay if it is making
life that difficult. Do you love that part of the country enough that
it is worth it to you to be stressed out and desperate for even a
minimum-wage job, when in other areas, you could maybe have your choice
of jobs that pay considerably more?
I'm thinking if you are now considering things that, like you said,
you wouldn't have ever considered before, then maybe you should
consider moving. Or even a long-distance commute. With the wage
differences you're talking about, it might even be feasible to work
in some other city 5 days a week and rent an apartment or a room there.
- Logan
George Grapman
P.S. Regarding the "desperate" part. My company is looking for some
part times and I sometimes scan the craigslist resumes. Anything with
"desperate" or" will do anything" are never even opened.
When I do open messages I never reply to someones who description of a
job uses more words than the Constitution uses describe the powers and
duties of the president or has wording like "interfaced between middle
and upper management" (tells me you did the coffee run) .
George Grapman
http://career.uhh.hawaii.edu/DOLUnpaidInternshipGuidelines.php
Pursuant to this law, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has developed
six criteria for differentiating between an employee entitled to minimum
wage or above and a learner/trainee who may be unpaid. The criteria for
learner/trainee are:
1. The training, even though it includes actual operations of the
facilities of the employers, is similar to that which would be given in
a vocational school.
2. The training is for the benefit of the student.
3. The student does not displace a regular employee, but works under
the close observation of a regular employee or supervisor.
4. The employer provides the training and derives no immediate
advantage from the activities of the student; and on occasion, the
operations may actually be impeded by the training.
5. The student is not necessarily entitled to a job at the
conclusion of the training period.
6. The employer and the student understand that the student is not
entitled to wages for the time spent training.
Not all six factors have to be present in order for the individual to be
considered a trainee. The experience, however, should look more like a
training/learning experience than a job.
Employers often question the fourth criterion -- that the employer
derives no immediate benefit from the student's activities. This seems
to contradict the contemporary practice of the use of internships by
employers and colleges. To make the experience educationally valid, the
same way that a student working in a college laboratory is expected to
become actively involved in the work at hand, an intern is expected to
participate actively in the work of the company. Several DOL rulings,
while not directly addressing the criterion, seem to suggest that as
long as the internship is a prescribed part of the curriculum, is part
of the school's educational process, and is predominately for the
benefit of the student, the fact that the employer receives some benefit
for the student's services does not make the student an employee for
purposes of wage and hour law.
An internship site should be able to answer "yes" to at least half the
following questions if an unpaid internship is being contemplated:
1. Is the work that you are offering an integral part of the
student's course of study?
2. Will the student receive credit for the work or is the internship
required for graduation?
3. Does the student have to prepare a report of his/her experience
and submit it to a faculty supervisor?
4. Have you received a letter or some other form of written
documentation from the school stating that the internship is
approved/sponsored by the school as educationally relevant?
5. Will the student perform work that other employees also perform,
with the student doing the work for the purpose of learning and not
necessarily performing a task for the employer?
6. Is the student working and providing benefit to you less than 50
percent of the time and/or is the student in a shadowing/learning mode?
7. Will you provide an opportunity for the individual to learn a
skill, process, or other business function, or operate equipment?
8. Is there educational value to the work performed, that is, is it
related to the courses the person is taking in school?
9. Is the individual supervised by one of your staff members?
10. Is it clear that a job is not guaranteed upon completion of the
training or completion of the person's schooling?
Source: Rochelle K. Kaplan, Legal Counsel, National Association of
Colleges and Employers, 62 Highland Ave., Bethlehem, PA 18017, (800)
544-5272 Ext. 10
UHH Career Center Contact Information
* Director: Norman S. Stahl, Ph.D. (808) 933 - 3115 or email:
nst...@hawaii.edu
* Assistant Director: Randal Usui (808) 974 - 7687 or email:
ru...@hawaii.edu
* Employer Relations Staff: (808) 974 - 7687 or email:
car...@hawaii.edu
* FAX: (808) 974 - 7689
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
> In article <t2z5j.6197$3W.3606@trndny04>,
> "AllEmailDeletedImmediately" <der...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Shawn Hirn" <sr...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:srhi-4B6395.2...@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
>> > In article
>> snip
>>
>> > I understand that you are desparate for a job, but I doubt this idea
>> > would pan out. Hiring someone is a major commitment. I seriously doubt
>> > $300 would make all that big a difference to a company who could afford
>> > to hire you. What might be better is to offer to work for free for a
>> > week at a place where they might be tempted to hire you, but aren't
>> > ready to make the commitment. Another option to consider is to move to
>> > an area where jobs are available.
>>
>> i'm not sure it's legal to work for free (off the clock), even
>> voluntarily,
>> at a regular type company.
>
> Why? If we are referring to the United States, its a free country. If
if you're happy and you know it, clank your chains.
> you are willing to work for free, I don't know of any area where that
> would be illegal. If you do have an example where volunteering to work
> is illegal, please provide the details.
i'd think state and federal minimum wage laws would apply unless it's a
non-profit. call up your state people and ask.
>
George Grapman
could tell Mr.A that he can have a job if Mrs.A agrees to perform as a
volunteer.
Don K
Ok, here's a credible reference that says it would not illegal to agree
to work for free. It does, however, say that the worker cannot give
up the right to claim the minimum wage, but he does not have to
claim it if he doesn't want to.
"You have the right to be paid minimum wage for every hour you work,
even if you tell your employer that you will work for less (or even nothing).
In other words, you cannot give up ("waive") your right to minimum wage
no matter what you say or do. If you agreed to perform work for less,
you still can file a claim to recover up to minimum wage. "
http://www.las-elc.org/MinimumWage.pdf
So if the new guy doesn't work out, the employer does run a risk that
he would go back on his word, and file for minimum wage
compensation anyway.
Personally I think it would be a good bet that the applicant would live
up to his word and not file.
Don
Shawn Hirn
George Grapman <sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
So where's the conflict here? The OP could simply offer his services as
a trainee with a condition that fits options 5 and 6, then if the
employer and the OP hit it off, the employer has the option of hiring
the OP and perhaps paying back pay for the time already worked.
skar...@gmail.com
You have three choices.
(1) Acquire a skill that is in demand in your area
(2) Move to an area where there is demand for your skills
(3) Suffer
For Mr. Grapman:
I like your way of filtering resumes and candidates. But, I know a few
hiring managers that are easily impressed by a long resume and by a
number of buzz words like "interfaced" "liaison" "paradigm"
"strategic", etc. It is generally hard to impress everyone with one
resume. It also matters as to what kind of job you are looking for. A
lathe operator (turner) has no business putting buzz words in the
resume.
George Grapman
communication shills. We do business to business sales and if the
initial call takes more than 10 seconds to get the point the other party
will lose interest.
AllEmailDeletedImmediately
> In article <4SJ5j.29023$lD6....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>,
> George Grapman <sfge...@paccbell.net> wrote:
>
>> Pursuant to this law, the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has developed
>> six criteria for differentiating between an employee entitled to minimum
>> wage or above and a learner/trainee who may be unpaid. The criteria for
>> learner/trainee are:
>>
>> 1. The training, even though it includes actual operations of the
>> facilities of the employers, is similar to that which would be given in
>> a vocational school.
>> 2. The training is for the benefit of the student.
>> 3. The student does not displace a regular employee, but works under
>> the close observation of a regular employee or supervisor.
>> 4. The employer provides the training and derives no immediate
>> advantage from the activities of the student; and on occasion, the
>> operations may actually be impeded by the training.
>> 5. The student is not necessarily entitled to a job at the
>> conclusion of the training period.
>> 6. The employer and the student understand that the student is not
>> entitled to wages for the time spent training.
>
> So where's the conflict here? The OP could simply offer his services as
> a trainee with a condition that fits options 5 and 6, then if the
> employer and the OP hit it off, the employer has the option of hiring
> the OP and perhaps paying back pay for the time already worked.
some industries regularly hire learner/trainees and know how to deal with
the law. i'm not sure most companies would want to start anything, tho.
>
Usene...@the-domain-in.sig
sfge...@paccbell.net says...
Must... restrain... self...
Must... NOT... mention... Monica... Lewinsky...
--
Want Privacy?
http://www.MinistryOfPrivacy.com/
Usene...@the-domain-in.sig
sfge...@paccbell.net says...
> Correct, but independent contractors are exempted. Sometime in, I
> think, the early 90's the definition of independent contractor was
> changed to meet the criteria that I mentioned in my earlier post.
I know someone who worked on commission in the US in the
early-mid 90s. At more than one employer. And there was never
any mention of any minimum wage floor. Just straight commission.
The hours weren't really counted, since there was a required
latest-starting and earliest-stopping window, but, in practice,
there was work going on before and after.
Interestingly, the employers also screwed around with the taxes,
and issued both a W-2 employee form, AND a 1099 independent
contractor form, with the worker's pay split between the two. I
think their excuse was related to the worker's vehicle expense
deductions. Some time after one of those jobs, an issue arose
where the state tax authoriTAH gave an official confirmation
basically stating, "You were an employee for all of your
earnings, and NOT a contractor."
On those jobs, the total amount earned was OK, because, if the
worker was productive, then the commissions would add up to more
than minimum wage times the basic required schedule. But there
was never any provision for any "guaranteed" minimum paycheque if
the worker's productivity was lower than that threshold.
Do you have a cite for that requirement? Perhaps it depends on
the particular state?
--
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http://www.WebSponsorZone.Net
Web Site Advertising Directory
Usene...@the-domain-in.sig
158de3...@b15g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, skar...@gmail.com
says...
I propose a synergistic relationship with your organisation, in
which we mutually leverage solutions.
I flip the burgers, and you pay me five bucks an hour.
Jon v Leipzig
> money so that I can get a job.
>
> I'm talking about maybe $300.00 or so. This would be a kind of
> "reverse hiring bonus" I guess.
>
> This is not a plan to offer some human resource person a "bribe" to
> pick me over the other candidates. I would be offering this money to
> the company itself (or small business).
>
> What do you guys think? This is a serious post and I'm open to all
> comments.
>
cash in your hand. Any HR person can sense you think you have little
else to offer the company, so why should they hire you??
Try this:
Get a pen and paper, find a quiet place where you can concentrate.
Make a list of at least a half dozen reasons why they should hire you.
examples; "I'm good at...."" "I have x amount of experience in...""
Chloe
news:475AB3D1...@myday.com...
> jdre...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I think that's a dumb idea. Very sad, you think your strongest point is
> cash in your hand. Any HR person can sense you think you have little else
> to offer the company, so why should they hire you??
>
> Try this:
> Get a pen and paper, find a quiet place where you can concentrate.
>
> Make a list of at least a half dozen reasons why they should hire you.
> examples; "I'm good at...."" "I have x amount of experience in...""
I'm not sure the OP was implying his strongest point was cash. I think he
was looking more for an angle that would distinguish him from other
job-seekers and provide him some kind of relatively unique advantage. Your
advice, while solid, hardly fits that category. Anyone who's had a single
successful job interview in their lives knows to apply the general principle
of what you suggest.
I think the offer to work for free was the best advice I'd seen on the
thread.
Jon v Leipzig
I do think it's possible he's convinced his positive attributes aren't enuf.
Obviously, it's been quite a while since he's had a successful
interview. Imo, he's no longer a typical job-hunter. Sounds
discouraged/dejected, hence the advice to write some things down. Maybe
he'll get a Brainstorm of some kind.
If I were in HR, think I'd consider an applicant offering to work 4 free
as maybe too desperate. Besides, a free "trial period" may be
meaningless. Peeps are always on their best behavior initially,
especially if they want/need something. (ask my ex-gf's)
George Grapman
I worked at an office as in independent contractor before the rules
changed. One individual boasted that he always threw away his 1099 and
never paid taxes.One day the IRS called him st work asking him to come
in an work out a payment plan. He hung up. A few days later they placed
a lien on his salary. He quit and found another job. I ran into him a
few years ago and he is pretty much limited to under the table jobs as
any time an employer withholds taxes the IRS pick it up after a few
months or sooner