Re: [Mind's Eye] Worship

[Howard Lee Mosely Jr.]

where's is the maddness that drives mankind when his or her spouse is unloyal or unfaithful ; personally the offence which their dealt with is tried to their beleif and in turn being that it's something that "at the time" they can't control .triggering the first curse which mankind inherited... the inmitity place between gender. RP Thanks , reminding us of God's peace!! 

On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 3:25 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

What I feel , think and do is totally bound by the spirit within me
and the same is true for everyone else.  So , if I think of God
separate from me I am thinking wrongly ; as our innermost being is the
same in all and all of us follow his dictates totally there is no
wisdom in worshiping  our creator as albeit we are Him. It is
ignorance to worship yourself. God is in all and it is God who does
everything as all our bound totally by Him. We should have a feeling
of love for all as essentially we are one and not harbour enemity for
those of us who are ignorant of the Truth and enjoy hurting others.
When a person knows that all are One then he attains a state of
calmness and if not he should try to achieve that peaceful state. But
of course we cannot cut the ties that bind us through this body and
have a practical outlook.

--
Howard Lee Mosely Jr.

[Menfranco Laws]

Hi, RP Singh; These are indeed words of wisdom when you say: What I
feel, think and do is totally bound by the spirit within me and the
same is true for everyone else; but then, you assume that you are part
of God and therefore everybody should be or feel that they are part of
God, so in reality you are saying that God is pandemic in nature and
we live within God life force, am I right?
But, I have to say that not everybody has reached this peaceful
feeling within them selves that you have achieved, I believe that you
are one of the few that has this feeling about being part of God and
you are blessed, the rest of us just think that we may not be worthy
enough of being part of God, therefore during our lives we are trying
to achieve what you have achieved for yourself and we hope to
understand you fully when we reach our goal.
I wish you all the best
Menfranco

[Menfranco Laws]

I see what you mean and I believe that you have reached a stage of
calmness and peace, otherwise you would not have written what you have
written about we all being part of God in this thread. But I would
like to ask you a question to your statement where you say that there
is no wisdom in worshipping our creator; my objection to that is that
I believe that man needs to pray God, so that they may feel protected
from God; I believe that it is one of the needs and the reason why we
have religions?

On Jul 26, 4:35 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do not say that I have reached a peaceful state , I only say that on
> gaining knowledge of the Truth one should strive to reach a state of
> calmness and peace. By Knowledge I mean a logical conclusion about the
> nature of Reality and not any transcendental experience.

> >> have a practical outlook.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jo]

We never went church while I was growing up. However, I do believe
that a higher power does exist. I also believe that we are somehow
connected to it. Worship for me has always been about giving thanks
and counting my blessings.

On Jul 27, 8:25 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If we are completely bound by the will of God it follows that
> everything is done by God , and hence it is God who would be
> worshiping God which to me appears ridiculous. If you believe yourself
> to be an emanation of God and completely controlled by Him it would be
> lack of wisdom to worship Him. God is our innermost being and is not
> separate from us , but you can only worship someone separate from you
> which is inconsistent with our belief that God is our essence. Either
> believe God to be separate from you , in which case it would be proper
> to worship Him like loving someone , or believe Him to be your Being
> and hence act with an attitude of equality to all and looking at
> everyone animate or inanimate with an equal eye. As for reaching a
> state of calmness and peace I am far from it but it is my resolve to
> be so.

[paradox]

Interesting Jo; how do you imagine our connection to this higher
power?

> > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Menfranco Laws]

I see that your beliefs are somehow different from my beliefs, because
I cannot see myself as being a part of God and inseparable from God;
but I see myself as a very small part of God, or God-life-force that
lives a separate life from God and I live my own life the way I
choose; but at the same time I live within God, as God is the life
force of the universe, because life is God and God is life itself,
having said that now I can say that I can pray God to help me if I
need help, whether God will answer my prayers, I do not know?

On Jul 28, 11:25 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If we are completely bound by the will of God it follows that
> everything is done by God , and hence it is God who would be
> worshiping God which to me appears ridiculous. If you believe yourself
> to be an emanation of God and completely controlled by Him it would be
> lack of wisdom to worship Him. God is our innermost being and is not
> separate from us , but you can only worship someone separate from you
> which is inconsistent with our belief that God is our essence. Either
> believe God to be separate from you , in which case it would be proper
> to worship Him like loving someone , or believe Him to be your Being
> and hence act with an attitude of equality to all and looking at
> everyone animate or inanimate with an equal eye. As for reaching a
> state of calmness and peace I am far from it but it is my resolve to
> be so.
>
>
>

> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Allan Heretic]

Sounds god to me

Allan

[rigsy03]

Someone should send that suggestion to the gods.

On Jul 29, 5:18 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To my mind , God doesn't require worship rather commitment to humanity
> and compassion towards all creatures.

> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[pol.science kid]

ive been reading the bros karamazov ... and there at one point when there is a discusssion on God and atheism... there is a point made that humanity strives for something for the whole community to worship... to be united in worship...that all the wars of religion are based on that ideal of community worship.. i was thinking about this... and this is the apt post for it... tell me what you think......

--
EverComing

[rigsy03]

They could believe in democracy and capitalism...

> EverComing- Hide quoted text -

[rigsy03]

From "My Life as Author and Editor"- H.L.Mencken- Ed. by Jonathan
Yardley

"Both of us are against the sentimental, the obvious, the trite, the
maudlin. Both of us are opposed to all such ideas as come from the
mob, and are polluted by its stupidity: Puritanism, Prohibition,
coldstockery, evangelical Christianity, tin-pot patriotism, the whole
sham of democracy. Both of us, though against socialism and in favor
of capitalism, believe that capitalism in the United States is
ignorant, disreputable and degraded, and that its heroes are bounders.
Both of us believe in the dignity of the fine arts, and regard
Beethoven and Brahms as far greater men than Wilson and Harding. Both
of us stand aloof from the childish nationism that now afflicts the
world, and regard all of its chief spokesmen, in all countries as
scoundrels."

On Jul 29, 8:25 am, "pol.science kid" <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> EverComing- Hide quoted text -

[pol.science kid]

well... and one more thing... worship is very personal isnt it... faith is... but at the same time it isnt... like in everything else do we seek conformation.... do we?... is the whole liberal culture of secularism going to go counter on its own ideal... harmony between different things to worship... i suppose the common factor is that we worship God.. but what about those who worship the devil...so to speak....

--
EverComing

[pol.science kid]

Both of them are very wise indeed:-)

--
EverComing

[rigsy03]

Correction: nationalism.

[Jo]

There have been times in my life when every fiber of my being felt
open and aware of everything in my surroundings, their purpose and
origins. Aware of people and their complexities. When everything
suddenly made sense and I felt as if I were tapped into.....
something. The source? The Universe? God? I don't know. I just know
that these moments don't last near as long as I would like. I wish I
could make them happen more often but I can't. And I don't feel that
there is a Will behind this source. The only Will I sense is my own.
So I'm very thankful to what ever it is that powers my being. I make
it a point to express my gratitude several times a day.

[gabbydott]

You pray before the meals? Yes, that's a good reminder.

[paradox]

lol.

[paradox]

A tad less emotive, and i might have even nodded approval :)

[paradox]

Jo, i dont doubt that there might be a divine or metaphysical source
of that special sense of cognitive "connectedness", i wish we all had
that more often too. Do you reflect on where you are in your personal
life, within yourself and your relationships, at times when you feel
that special sense?

[Jo]

No. It's random and has only happened 3 times. I do not meditate or
even seek spiritual enlightenment. I'm just living my life like
everyone else.

[Jo]

It wasn't meant to remind anything to anyone. I was only sharing my
experience. I'm sorry if you found it too rudimentary.

[gabbydott]

I was wondering wether you were discussing the biochemical implications of your experiences - that is why i asked. The judgement is of course solely upon you.

Am 30.07.2011 00:08 schrieb "Jo" <jojoca...@gmail.com>:

[Allan Heretic]

I know the feeling paradox, been there.. Jo. There are always people who will not accept the experiences of others. The happen, they change your life..
Allan

Allan

[paradox]

Sorry i wasnt a little clearer Jo; i was just wondering if you'd
looked back on those times to see if you could discern a similar
pattern or balance of life's variables at the times when you had that
feeling?

[Allan Heretic]

Jo their are people especially on this sight that will try and convince they are learned masters, when in reality they are but fundamentalist. Reading it sounds very much like a earth moving event. I know you are not alone, simply because I too have walked that path.

I would recommend that it become a private conversation , I know personally I would enjoy that, my email address is valid do not put it through the group. And the easiest remind me is put topic-PVT in the subject line
Looking forward to hearing from you

Allan

[Allan Heretic]

Paradox. You are not imagining, it is very real, you should try it someday.
Allan

On 29 jul. 2011, at 22:35, Jo <jojoca...@gmail.com> wrote:

[paradox]

I do not doubt for one moment that it is, Allan; i have had similar
experiences on quite a number of occasions myself. I asked the
question to get a holistic view of the snapshot of time; i ask myself
the same question of my experiences too.

On Jul 30, 7:42 pm, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Paradox. You are not imagining,  it is very real, you should try it someday.
> Allan
>

[Allan Heretic]

Great,, now how do we expand them?

Allan

[rigsy03]

So does crisis and catastrophe and who is to say that is not also
enligtenment as much as a "spiritual awakening". Really, it is about a
new vision.

On Jul 30, 4:43 am, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know the feeling paradox,  been there..  Jo. There are always people who will not accept the experiences of others. The happen, they change your life..
> Allan
>
> Allan
>

[Lee Douglas]

Heh heh RP I just dont get thi at all.

If we have no will of our own and all we do is the will of God then
how can anybody strive for anything?

[Lee Douglas]

Indeed Jo(and welcome from me BTW).

What would you say is the role of prayer?

> > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Lee Douglas]

Isn't that in itelf a form of worship?

On Jul 29, 11:18 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> To my mind , God doesn't require worship rather commitment to humanity
> and compassion towards all creatures.
>
>
>

[Lee Douglas]

Can you see it this way perhaps?

Can you see God being apart from but also a part of the creation?

On Jul 28, 11:47 pm, Menfranco Laws <menfra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I see that your beliefs are somehow different from my beliefs, because
> I cannot see myself as being a part of God and inseparable from God;
> but I see myself as a very small part of God, or God-life-force that
> lives a separate life from God and I live my own life the way I
> choose; but at the same time I live within God, as God is the life
> force of the universe, because life is God and God is life itself,
> having said that now I can say that I can pray God to help me if I
> need help, whether God will answer my prayers, I do not know?

[Jo]

Prayer works! Especially if you get a large group to pray together for
the same outcome (within reason, the group has to believe that what
they're praying for is possible). And they don't even have to have the
same religious beliefs. They can be a mixture of Christians, Muslims,
Buddhists and New Agers. At least that's been my observation so far.
The larger the group the better the outcome.

[allan deheretic]

Go Girl Go....

Allan

--
 (   
  )   
I_D Allan

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

[Lee Douglas]

Heh that has not been my experiances Jo. I would say that true prayer
is praise for God that and nowt else.

Prayer to ask God for help I do not belive works at all. I gues your
own experiances I would put down to good old fashioned coincidance.

[rigsy03]

Prayer can settle ones nerves until you think of a real solution
yourself. :-) I- and many others- quit the Catholic Church when they
discarded the Latin ritual but there was no substitute in other sects
and faiths. Some remained- just enough- to have a basicila or
cathedral for weddings and funerals but took/take their faith
cafeteria style.

[Lee Douglas]

Yes it makes me wonder with your words here and Jo's words a few posts
back if prayer used this way is akin to magic?

[Lee Douglas]

You see my freind this is where to my mind your stance starts to
become untangled.

We have no free will according to you, how then can we then strive for
anything?

If all my choices are not mine but Gods acting through my nature, then
I can't choose to strive or learn or anything, I can only go where God
directs me.

Who then are you trying to reach with your advice, why offer any
advice if we have no freedom to choose God or not?

In my stance God has granjted us the supreame gift of freedom of
choice.

God says come to me and we get to choose if we do or do not.

In your stance God chooses who to 'save' and who to not.

All religious text that I have read lead me to the conlusion that my
stance is the correct one, hahah but I guess you and I will just have
to believe differantly.



On Aug 4, 5:42 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> God has made us partners in His Will and so on gaining knowledge of
> the real nature of duality and non-duality we should strive to get as
> near the non-dual as possible , and that is through achieving a
> calmness of mind.

> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Lee Douglas]

I'm with you up to a point here RP.

Yes God is everywhere internal and external to us.

Yes as the creator we can say that our nature has been planned by God,
that is my nature due to all the factors you name here were known by
God before even my grand parents were born.

But this talk about minds seems a little odd to me, perhaps it is
merely your choice of words. How can your mind be both able to
control you and yet you still be able to decide what to do?

Try this if you would. For a set amount of time, attempt to not pass
on to others your perception of knowldge.

Can you do it?

Yes yes of course you can, then have you shown that you control your
mind, not the other way around?

Haha yes your confidance shines out mate. I guess ultimatly there is
little sense in us carrying this on, except it does help to stretch
the old brain muscle huh.




On Aug 5, 4:31 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lee , as I say we are agents of God. God is not someone sitting
> outside us , He is there within us , our very Being and we are just a
> projection from Him. By his given nature we are moved to do , to act ,
> to think, to decide and essentially our will is bound to the nature
> which He has given us , whether it be genetic , environmental or
> innate. We are not using our mind rather it is our mind which is using
> us , it is my mind which wants me to pass my perception of knowledge
> to you and it is your mind which accepts or rejects it. It is all a
> matter of understanding and what I understand you do not , maybe
> because a deficiency is on my side but that does not appear to me to
> be so and I am confident of my stance and that is why I have been
> having this discourse with you for such a long time.

[Allan Heretic]

My question comes to what is worth praying for?
Allan

[Allan Heretic]

You are right Lee
Allan

[Allan Heretic]

RP every generation has it's prophets and false prophets, it's teachers and false teachers, unfortunately false prophets and teachers far exceed those that speak the truth.
Allan

On 5 aug. 2011, at 17:31, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Lee , as I say we are agents of God. God is not someone sitting
> outside us , He is there within us , our very Being and we are just a
> projection from Him. By his given nature we are moved to do , to act ,
> to think, to decide and essentially our will is bound to the nature
> which He has given us , whether it be genetic , environmental or
> innate. We are not using our mind rather it is our mind which is using
> us , it is my mind which wants me to pass my perception of knowledge
> to you and it is your mind which accepts or rejects it. It is all a
> matter of understanding and what I understand you do not , maybe
> because a deficiency is on my side but that does not appear to me to
> be so and I am confident of my stance and that is why I have been
> having this discourse with you for such a long time.
>

[Allan Heretic]

If the shoe fits wear it, RP
Yes it more or less was coined by me, but I doubt if the idea is really original. There is very little that is original in the universe.

Paranoid of you? Or something else, I can't imagine why, personally I just ignore you and let you babble on.
Allan

On 5 aug. 2011, at 22:00, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Allan , you have called me a Gita thumper previously and now you seem
> to be implying that I am a false teacher , right ? To me your views ,
> I am sorry to say ,sound off base. What makes you so sure that before
> this birth you were in company of God with full knowledge of Him and
> that you are born in this life to better yourself spiritually and your
> death will be your rebirth spiritually. Where did you read this jargon
> , Allan, or have you coined all this yourself ? I won't be so
> presumptuous as to call you disturbed but your views do sound
> paranoid to me.

[paradox]

Cool it, guys; why are you getting so worked up? You're losing us your
faithful listening audience, by losing your train of thought :)



On Aug 5, 9:42 pm, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Was it your babble , Allan , which  made you address me by name with
> my post as a reference ? Is it your babble , allan, which makes you
> call me a book thumper by name ? I don't like to bring in the
> moderators here but you are a fit case to be moderated. If you haven't
> the courage or competence to make a critical examination of my posts
> you would be better advised to babble to your hearts content in your
> private emails to your friends and not post on this site.

>
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 1:58 AM, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If the shoe fits wear it, RP
> > Yes it more or less was coined by me, but I doubt if the idea is really original. There is very little that is original in the universe.
>
> > Paranoid of you? Or something else, I can't imagine why, personally I just ignore you and let you babble on.
> > Allan
>
> > On 5 aug. 2011, at 22:00, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Allan , you have called me a Gita thumper previously and now you seem
> >> to be implying that I am a false teacher , right ? To me your views ,
> >> I am sorry to say ,sound off base. What makes you so sure that before
> >> this birth you were in company of God with full knowledge of Him and
> >> that you are born in this life to better yourself spiritually and your
> >> death will be your rebirth spiritually. Where did you read this jargon
> >> , Allan, or have you coined all this yourself ? I won't be so
> >> presumptuous as to call you  disturbed but your views do sound
> >> paranoid to me.
>

> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 1:10 AM, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> RP every generation has it's prophets and false prophets, it's teachers and false teachers, unfortunately false prophets and teachers far exceed those that speak the truth.
> >>> Allan
>
> >>> On 5 aug. 2011, at 17:31, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Lee , as I say we are agents of God. God is not someone sitting
> >>>> outside us , He is there within us , our very Being and we are just a
> >>>> projection from Him. By his given nature we are moved to do , to act ,
> >>>> to think, to decide and essentially our will is bound to the nature
> >>>> which He has given us , whether it be genetic , environmental or
> >>>> innate. We are not using our mind rather it is our mind which is using
> >>>> us , it is my mind which wants me to pass my perception of knowledge
> >>>> to you and it is your mind which accepts or rejects it. It is all a
> >>>> matter of understanding and what I understand you do not , maybe
> >>>> because a deficiency is on my side but that does not appear to me to
> >>>> be so and I am confident of my stance and that is why I have been
> >>>> having this discourse with you for such a long time.
>

[Jo]

" I would say that true prayer is praise for God that and nowt else."

hmm... This doesn't sit well with me. It implies that the creator is
vain.

[ornamentalmind]

Clearly it is time to remind group members of our posting guidelines.
Please read and/or re-read them.

http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye/web/posting-guidelines

In the first few years here the purely rational were about all that
would be tolerated and evidence, proof etc. was the currency of the
day. I’ve been a bit more flexible in this sense. Please do not
interpret this relative freedom of posting to mean that I don’t care
and/or won’t moderate.

[allan deheretic]

My apologize if I have offended the members of the group.

To clarify a real question. What I wrote is not original, I have been kicking the idea around in my mind that I forgot the original source..  It is loosely based of the concept of reincarnation, trying to look at the subject from the other side..

Allan

PS  I know I babble and anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt..

[allan deheretic]

From my personal experience vain is not a word that can be used. God is the humblest being I have ever met. As i think about him I am in total awe.

Allan 

[Lee Douglas]

Nothing is worth praying for and indeed I do not belive that praying
for things works at all.

On Aug 5, 8:29 pm, Allan Heretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My question comes to what is worth praying for?
> Allan
>

[Lee Douglas]

Hahah Jo, God is vain!

I'm not Christian but I do belive that when the Bible tells us that
God man man(kind) in Gods imaige there is truth to this. But
obviously If you and I look differant we can't both look like God?

No I don't think that God litrally created Man(kind) in Gods imagine,
that is God is not human shapped for God (in my faith) is formless.

So perhaps, just perhaps it is our minds, perhaps humanity shares some
attributes in common with God?

The Chrisitian understanding of God we know is wrathfull, and
vengfull, and jeloues, so why not vain also?

[Lee Douglas]

Meh! Leave it out OM.

Jo is a newbie here and was just expressing an opinion. We are
allowed to express them huh! And as we know often times opinions
expressed engender rational debate.

[allan deheretic]

Sorry Lee from one thing my personal experience is Gone is not Vain..  He is the kindest gentlest being I have ever meet. Common attributes? Good Gravy  your entire being is made up of the essence of God..   and that very being gave you free will.

As for the religions and their books..  they are not all bad if you look at the value they have. please realize often times they are written by man  to dominate others..  God is a victim of their desires..

Allan  ("',)

[allan deheretic]

That was not aimed at Jo but rather at me, because I was out of line.

Allan

[Jo]

Did one of my comments get omitted? If so, then why?

[ornamentalmind]

Jo, no, nothing of your's was omitted and it was aimed more at other
posters. You just arrived.

[Menfranco Laws]

Hi Lee and everybody else! Since I am still following this thread, I
hope you don't mind me coming back.

1; Lee, I partly agree with you when you say: Nothing is worth praying
for and indeed I do not believe that praying

for things works at all.

(A) I say that perhaps you are right, but then mankind wants to
believe, because for them God is hope for those who need hope most, so
we cannot just disregard praying.

2; No I don't think that God litrally created Man(kind) in Gods

imagine,
that is God is not human shapped for God (in my faith) is formless.

(A) I agree that God is formless, how else can God be nobody has ever
seen God?

3; So perhaps, just perhaps it is our minds, perhaps humanity shares

some
attributes in common with God?

(A) Yes I agree. We would like to be like God?
-
See you next time Menfranco

[Lee Douglas]

Hey Allan,

And the worth of personal experiances to others is?

I too have had many experiances, some downright frightening, some
quite lovely.

Yes indeed God is in every thing, and so when humans do evil can it be
said that God is?

> Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,- Hide quoted text -

[rigsy03]

Maybe we should pray for Lee and Archy that they don't get caught up
in the riots and looting taking place in England. Call in the army and
use rubber bullets or something. Very bad pre-publicity for the
Olympics. Why are the Brits so cheerful and merry for royal weddings?
Life is a jungle...

[allan deheretic]

I think it is part of freedom of choice God gave to people. Just because people abuse this freedom, 

What I think it really comes down to and how we respond to a situation, doing nothing is also  a valid choice which we are held accountable for..

Reality is Lee II do not have and answer or explanation,,  I just do not know, 

Allan

[Lee Douglas]

Well then Allen, in my book that makes you a wise man.

Heheh all i know for sure is there is a hell of a lot I don't know!

On Aug 9, 1:19 pm, allan deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think it is part of freedom of choice God gave to people. Just because
> people abuse this freedom,
> What I think it really comes down to and how we respond to a situation,
> doing nothing is also  a valid choice which we are held accountable for..
>
> Reality is Lee II do not have and answer or explanation,,  I just do not
> know,
> Allan
>