Modern Utopia
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archytas
Sep 11, 2012, 8:10:45 PM9/11/12
to "Minds Eye"
Utopia means something like 'the ideal that is nowhere' - the word is
sprung with irony. Many decent ideas are derided as Utopian, much as
whistle-blowers soon become incompetent malcontents. I don't believe
there is a modern world - we are still largely dark age. Most people
can't offer much explanation why science is more rational than
godswank or a sales pitch. Even I see little difference between the
physics pornography of the big bang and the origins of our main
religions. Doing science was always liberation from dogma for me,
with the end of getting to what works.
A modern world would be scientific, but there's a catch. Most people
can't do it (at least as we teach and practice it) and the Frakenstein
fear probably dominates in the majority. Say Einstein and most will
trot out E = MC2 - his work isn't about this. Most people don't know
about the pollen grains, let alone the tensor equations and his
reconciliation of the great work of Maxwell and apparently
contradictory experimental evidence.
A modern society would organise around scientific estimates of what
work we need to do. My own guess is this would be about 6 hours/2
days a week/9 months a year/40 year span. One has to wonder why we
don't have a proper estimate of this that takes modern technology into
account. My guess is based on agriculture being 7% of world GDP and
75% being 'services'. I suspect essential work is about 30% of what
we call work.
This leads me, with other matters, to think we have not established a
welfare state at all. A real one would be about us all contributing
equally towards creating decent living conditions for all and doing
this essential work as a duty to each other and the planet. The rest
of my Utopia follows from this and the rest of the economy would be
based on producing/doing what interests us.
Pie in the sky?
sprung with irony. Many decent ideas are derided as Utopian, much as
whistle-blowers soon become incompetent malcontents. I don't believe
there is a modern world - we are still largely dark age. Most people
can't offer much explanation why science is more rational than
godswank or a sales pitch. Even I see little difference between the
physics pornography of the big bang and the origins of our main
religions. Doing science was always liberation from dogma for me,
with the end of getting to what works.
A modern world would be scientific, but there's a catch. Most people
can't do it (at least as we teach and practice it) and the Frakenstein
fear probably dominates in the majority. Say Einstein and most will
trot out E = MC2 - his work isn't about this. Most people don't know
about the pollen grains, let alone the tensor equations and his
reconciliation of the great work of Maxwell and apparently
contradictory experimental evidence.
A modern society would organise around scientific estimates of what
work we need to do. My own guess is this would be about 6 hours/2
days a week/9 months a year/40 year span. One has to wonder why we
don't have a proper estimate of this that takes modern technology into
account. My guess is based on agriculture being 7% of world GDP and
75% being 'services'. I suspect essential work is about 30% of what
we call work.
This leads me, with other matters, to think we have not established a
welfare state at all. A real one would be about us all contributing
equally towards creating decent living conditions for all and doing
this essential work as a duty to each other and the planet. The rest
of my Utopia follows from this and the rest of the economy would be
based on producing/doing what interests us.
Pie in the sky?
gabbydott
Sep 12, 2012, 4:57:19 AM9/12/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I watched a documentary on Nestlé's worldwide drinking water business
last night. It's good to be reminded of how it looks like when
nature's impurities are being perfected. Your pie in the sky seems
more accessible than cloud cuckoo land ever was.
> --
>
>
>
last night. It's good to be reminded of how it looks like when
nature's impurities are being perfected. Your pie in the sky seems
more accessible than cloud cuckoo land ever was.
>
>
>
archytas
Sep 12, 2012, 9:24:05 AM9/12/12
to "Minds Eye"
I have never seen a cloud cuckoo land Gabby, though most people walk
around professing rational astrologies. Scrub jays hold funerals -
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120911162031.htm
There was a tribe in Peru who invented sophisticated water-management
and spread their empire by keeping this competitive advantage to
themselves and inventing a control fraud religion around it (they died
horribly when drought or some scientifically minded chaps/esses
rumbled them).
The Hillsborough Report is out in Britain today - 23 years late. The
conclusion is that the 96 deaths at a soccer match was covered-up by
all the relevant authorities - much as Bloody Sunday in Northern
Ireland. I've just read 'Conjuring Hitler' - a book that makes him
out as substantially created by US/UK interests, along with Germany
being drawn into WW1 and 2 as part of a ghastly attempt to bolster
Britain's Eurasian foreign policy and Anglo-Saxon banking interests.
Sadly, the promised proof is missing, though I agree with the author
in general principle. One might note the use of a barking religious
cult like the Nazis has parallels with the Taliban.
Cloud cuckoo at Hillsborough was that people in authority acted
responsibly and everything was the fault of the people who died. Now
we know this was all cover-up and very vicious, with no respect for
those grieving for victims. I believe this is standard bureaucratic
practice and wonder if this is connected to the repeated, miserable
and inaccurate history propounded by the BBC (add to international
taste).
All my pies are in the sky these days - an excellent way to lose 15%
of body weight (I'm back to my last rugby-playing weight, though my
last days were as a fat university amateur).
Some of the economics can be found in a new, free academic journal -
http://wer.worldeconomicsassociation.org/ - the contributors sound a
bit like Allan. The stuff is heavy-weight but readable. An article
by Michael Hudson makes Vam's point that issues for the people in
respect of the financial system remain as they were in the 13th
century. John F Tomer writes a piece on the 'brain' reminiscent of
Molly's 'being focus'. Milford Bateman and Ha-Joon Chang (writing on
microfinance) make Gabby's oft repeated 'of mice and men' (to me an
essential part of planning). Maybe we should put up a submission?
My guess is we can't really do economics because "we" are scared to
let money go as a "motivator" and fear all social order will collapse
without the need to scramble for a living.
around professing rational astrologies. Scrub jays hold funerals -
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120911162031.htm
There was a tribe in Peru who invented sophisticated water-management
and spread their empire by keeping this competitive advantage to
themselves and inventing a control fraud religion around it (they died
horribly when drought or some scientifically minded chaps/esses
rumbled them).
The Hillsborough Report is out in Britain today - 23 years late. The
conclusion is that the 96 deaths at a soccer match was covered-up by
all the relevant authorities - much as Bloody Sunday in Northern
Ireland. I've just read 'Conjuring Hitler' - a book that makes him
out as substantially created by US/UK interests, along with Germany
being drawn into WW1 and 2 as part of a ghastly attempt to bolster
Britain's Eurasian foreign policy and Anglo-Saxon banking interests.
Sadly, the promised proof is missing, though I agree with the author
in general principle. One might note the use of a barking religious
cult like the Nazis has parallels with the Taliban.
Cloud cuckoo at Hillsborough was that people in authority acted
responsibly and everything was the fault of the people who died. Now
we know this was all cover-up and very vicious, with no respect for
those grieving for victims. I believe this is standard bureaucratic
practice and wonder if this is connected to the repeated, miserable
and inaccurate history propounded by the BBC (add to international
taste).
All my pies are in the sky these days - an excellent way to lose 15%
of body weight (I'm back to my last rugby-playing weight, though my
last days were as a fat university amateur).
Some of the economics can be found in a new, free academic journal -
http://wer.worldeconomicsassociation.org/ - the contributors sound a
bit like Allan. The stuff is heavy-weight but readable. An article
by Michael Hudson makes Vam's point that issues for the people in
respect of the financial system remain as they were in the 13th
century. John F Tomer writes a piece on the 'brain' reminiscent of
Molly's 'being focus'. Milford Bateman and Ha-Joon Chang (writing on
microfinance) make Gabby's oft repeated 'of mice and men' (to me an
essential part of planning). Maybe we should put up a submission?
My guess is we can't really do economics because "we" are scared to
let money go as a "motivator" and fear all social order will collapse
without the need to scramble for a living.
rigsy03
Sep 12, 2012, 10:30:22 AM9/12/12
to "Minds Eye"
Re Germany- they were also a threat to UK manufacturing and north
Atlantic sea lanes. Now it is US and China.//Roosevelt hushed up
Soviet massacre of Polish officers because he needed Stalin in the war
effort it was revealed yesterday.
On Sep 12, 8:24 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have never seen a cloud cuckoo land Gabby, though most people walk
> around professing rational astrologies. Scrub jays hold funerals -http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120911162031.htm
> Some of the economics can be found in a new, free academic journal -http://wer.worldeconomicsassociation.org/- the contributors sound a
> > > --- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Atlantic sea lanes. Now it is US and China.//Roosevelt hushed up
Soviet massacre of Polish officers because he needed Stalin in the war
effort it was revealed yesterday.
On Sep 12, 8:24 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have never seen a cloud cuckoo land Gabby, though most people walk
>
> - Show quoted text -
Allan H
Sep 12, 2012, 10:38:05 AM9/12/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Utopia could exist in small groups, it is unfortunate that the leader ship of the world practices greedopia leaving the poor to fight off the adverse effects on the world.
--
(
I enjoy this group as it allows ideas to grow and expand without condemnation, I remember starting a topic on spiritual zombies, not a great topic but it did allow an evolution in my own beliefs reveling what is to me a very scary concept which I am just getting to grips with. That is being a true spiritual being, and in taking human one takes on the decision to grow and increase our place on the great mandala, for lack of a better word.
When you cause harm to your fellow humans you in reality are moving your spiritual being in effect are moving your spiritual being toward the outer edges of the great mandala or lowering your place and status in the spiritual realm separating your self from the rest of the very utopia realm. This is very much the karma that you the hindi talking about
I think that if the world leaders realized the effect on their spiritual status they would see the scientific principal of cause and effect come into play you would hear this common statement "Oh Shit!"
Allan
--
(
)
|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
I am a Natural Airgunner -
Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.
Lee Douglas
Oct 23, 2012, 4:29:40 PM10/23/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Ohh Archy ever the discontent. I think the issue is that the world is full of different voices and different opinions. Last night I watched the new Dawkins show on TV, 'Sex, death and the meaning of life'. I only managed to shout at the TV twice. What I saw was interesting of course, but also coloured by Dawkins own views(of course).
I am as you know no great fan of Dawkins, but my personality is such that I ever give people another chance. For those interested what made me shout at him last night was the way he introduced an experiment that showed children being fooled into believing that there existed a machine capable of duplicating anything put into one half of it.
So a gerbil goes into one half, the scientist presses a button, a beep is heard and the other half is opened, vola! A duplicate gerbil. The kids were then asked a series of questions about the second gerbil. The point being to show that even as children we believe that gerbil number one has different memories than it's duplicate gerbil two. Dawkins findings were that this shows clearly that we humans seem to have a built in idea of the soul. Myself I would have said that even as children it seems we have an idea of Self.
The point?
Well we all claim to know what's best, but of course we differ on our ideas. So what do I believe is best? I guess it all comes back to the golden rule, and if you will allow me I'll express it the Neo Pagan way, 'If it harm none, then do as thou will'. Does this make me Liberterian I wonder? Hehe hardly, because of course the logical flip of the golden rule says that I would like to be helped by society when I need the help, thus I must believe that Society must help those who need it.
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