deep thought

[Allan H]

--
 (
  )
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

[archytas]

No idea mate. Deep Thought was the computer that couldn't answer the
question and thus commissioned a bigger one to find the question.

[rigs]

Answers are easy- it's the right question that alarms.

Do you know how they are trying to integrate computers with universal
education? Charlie Rose(bud) had a couple shows to prepare us- one
with schools that are doing it and another with Google-men. Lord
almighty...all will be attached to their mobile de(vices).

> > Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[rigs]

Someone recently mentioned Socrates was alarmed with the popularity of
writing as he felt it would weaken the memory. I thought it lovely
that the ancient bards trained their minds like a house of many rooms
and storied them.

On Apr 28, 7:27 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Allan H]

Actually you are right Rigsy scientists are proving the more you use any specific section of the brain the larger it becomes..

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[gabbydott]

Doing what? You/one/they/we/I cannot "do" universal education. We can/could identify commonness and all the where-/what-abouts - it won't save our mortal souls.

[gabbydott]

This explains the size and the regular pains in my forehead .... hahaha. Sorry, Allan, bad joke. I am sure you don't think of yourself as a sexist and/or racist.

2013/4/29 Allan H <allan...@gmail.com>

[rigs]

Not enlarged but more active- with more storage chambers. :-)

> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

>
> --
>  (
>   )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,

[rigs]

It might not even save "education"! I should have stressed the future
reliance on tablets and smart phones. Anyway, deja vu. They must have
said/tried the same with the printing press and recently with tv and
computers. What will happen to "point of view"? As it is, facts and
reality are edited/razored out of textbooks and media. It's also tied
to high tuition and the need to constantly entertain among several
other drags upon traditional methods. What do you see as common?
Education is considered a basic human right. What language? What
allowances given to various cultures and stage of industrial/
commercial development which has rarely considered the salvation of
the mortal soul...to become what?...immortal? What about plagiarism?
What about those who are already bored with social sites and feeling
like they are on an electronic leash and trackable every second?
Anyway, there is no guarantee that an individual can be self-motivated
to progress.

On Apr 29, 2:26 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Doing what? You/one/they/we/I cannot "do" universal education. We can/could
> identify commonness and all the where-/what-abouts - it won't save our
> mortal souls.
>
> Am Montag, 29. April 2013 schrieb rigs :
>
>
>
> > Answers are easy- it's the right question that alarms.
>
> > Do you know how they are trying to integrate computers with universal
> > education? Charlie Rose(bud) had a couple shows to prepare us- one
> > with schools that are doing it and another with Google-men. Lord
> > almighty...all will be attached to their mobile de(vices).
>

> > On Apr 28, 7:27 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > No idea mate.  Deep Thought was the computer that couldn't answer the
> > > question and thus commissioned a bigger one to find the question.
>

> > > On 28 Apr, 21:51, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
>
> > > > --
> > > >  (
> > > >   )
> > > > |_D Allan
>
> > > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > > > Of course I talk to myself,
> > > > Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
>
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > ""Minds Eye"" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> > email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com <javascript:;>.
> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.- Hide quoted text -

[Konara Abeyrathne]

training or developing our mind is not that difficult or easy. mind is a very active and naughty sense .onlything we have to tame other senses,concentrate on the function of the mind through the "MIND EYE'" itself. and engage in trancedental meditation.  this you have to start and continue until you see a bright light in your mind try and see pl   I am abeyratne from Kandy Sri Lanka

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[Allan H]

sounds like good Buddhist thought

[archytas]

The brain is pretty plastic. It seems we need good connections
between various bits of it to be healthy and none psychopath. I have
become interested in stupidity recently, so maybe more forehead will
shrink. Welcome Abeyrathne. I could do with some light - thinking of
rigs' 'rooms of mind' I probably need to get rid of some clutter!

On 2 May, 14:51, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> sounds like good Buddhist thought
>

> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 5:46 AM, Konara Abeyrathne <kona...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > training or developing our mind is not that difficult or easy. mind is
> > a very active and naughty sense .onlything we have to tame other
> > senses,concentrate on the function of the mind through the "MIND EYE'"
> > itself. and engage in trancedental meditation.  this you have to start and
> > continue until you see a bright light in your mind try and see pl   I am
> > abeyratne from Kandy Sri Lanka
>

> > On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 at 9:08 AM, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Someone recently mentioned Socrates was alarmed with the popularity of
> >> writing as he felt it would weaken the memory. I thought it lovely
> >> that the ancient bards trained their minds like a house of many rooms
> >> and storied them.
>
> >> On Apr 28, 7:27 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > No idea mate.  Deep Thought was the computer that couldn't answer the
> >> > question and thus commissioned a bigger one to find the question.
>
> >> > On 28 Apr, 21:51, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > --
> >> > >  (
> >> > >   )
> >> > > |_D Allan
>
> >> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >> > > Of course I talk to myself,
> >> > > Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> > - Show quoted text -
>
> >> --
>
> >> ---
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> >> email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

> >> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

>
> >  --
>
> > ---
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[Allan H]

Well to get rid of clutter..  lol  Carbamazepine  should do the trick..    have to take it for epilepsy  but other than the steel band for the first  few months  it does get rid of the clutter...  forget it Neil it is not worth it..  they keep swearing it is safe but some how I get the feeling the Doctor is lying..

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[gabbydott]

I should have thought of of learning objectives in the sense of objects to learn to. Edukation and not Build-ung. POV will remain what I think you have. Facts and reality will have to be comprised to micro units of truth for you to be able to access and deal with in your learning modules. Entertainment  that you don't have to pay (effort) for is not being recognised as something to build antibodies for/against.  Common is what is  acted upon as being in common, I'd say.  Education that goes beyond simple imitation  (parroting  and plagiarizing) is based on language creation and reaffirmation by means of language (both wide definitions of language).  And yes, the fear of death and the miracle of life is the bracket which holds us together in our ever becoming. As for the feeling of being constantly e-milked for our cash, you quickly get used to it. "Hans in Luck", self-motivated to progress, getting rid of the heaviness and thereby acting as a role model here, misunderstood of course, since fairy tale grammar has been isolated from its co-evolutionary content and has been newly combined with instant content from the marketing department. Being e-track- and traceable will surely save quite a number of real lives of superheroes wearing super-glasses, taking super videos and photos at super places! Super-immortality!!! :)

2013/4/30 rigs <rig...@gmail.com>

[gabbydott]

Good point and welcome here, Channe/Konara/Abeyratne/from Kandy Sri Lanka! 

Which is why the MINDS EYE light should better point outside.

2013/4/29 Konara Abeyrathne <kon...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

welcome Chenne   looking forward to your ideas..  

[rigs]

Pardon my late welcome. Why not refine instead of tame the senses?
They are also gifts.

> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.- Hide quoted text -

[James]

Hello Konara, rigsy, all. I am wondering if this is a more figurative
'light'..? In the sense that it illuminates the world and allows a
greater understanding and mastery of things, I mean.

Spring is in the air. :)

[gabbydott]

Of course a more figurative light is being meant! The trouble remains the same. "Enlightenment" is the word. The context makes it 'Aufklärung' or 'Erleuchtung', light particle or light wave.

2013/5/6 James <ashk...@gmail.com>

email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

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[Allan H]

there are many forms of enlightenment.. a skilled carpenter can be enlightened on crafting wood.. a nurse can be enlightened on caring for patients  . . .   there are many different forms of enlightenment.. spiritual enlightenment is perhaps the most confusing of all knowledge..

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[gabbydott]

We used to view what I think you are describing through the 'Wissen' - 'Können' glasses. The spiritual dimension needed the right justification and calibration of both. We now ask if you: know-that/know-about/know-how/know-why/know-what.

2013/5/6 Allan H <allan...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

knowledge is enlightenment --  spiritual enlightenment  ---  well there are more ideas and ramblings people call enlightened..    at least a enlightened carpenter the enlightenment will show up in his work.

[archytas]

Ejukation is basically child-minding - we give the little dears easy
things to do so we can praise them. The ones too stupid to realise
its all rubbish and bail out early end up with the biggest debts - all
very meritocratic! The world would work rather well on a 2-day week.
The ejukationist's job is to stop people realising this, the classroom
the straight-jacket through which we get people used to not doing what
they want to.

On 6 May, 10:50, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> knowledge is enlightenment --  spiritual enlightenment  ---  well there are
> more ideas and ramblings people call enlightened..    at least
> a enlightened carpenter the enlightenment will show up in his work.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 11:13 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We used to view what I think you are describing through the 'Wissen' -
> > 'Können' glasses. The spiritual dimension needed the right justification
> > and calibration of both. We now ask if you:
> > know-that/know-about/know-how/know-why/know-what.
>

> > 2013/5/6 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>

>
> >> there are many forms of enlightenment.. a skilled carpenter can be
> >> enlightened on crafting wood.. a nurse can be enlightened on caring
> >> for patients  . . .   there are many different forms of enlightenment..
> >> spiritual enlightenment is perhaps the most confusing of all knowledge..
>

> >> On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Of course a more figurative light is being meant! The trouble remains
> >>> the same. "Enlightenment" is the word. The context makes it 'Aufklärung' or
> >>> 'Erleuchtung', light particle or light wave.
>

> >>> 2013/5/6 James <ashkas...@gmail.com>

> >>>>>>> email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
> >>>>>>> .
> >>>>>>> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.**com/groups/opt_out.-<http://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.->Hide quoted text -

>
> >>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >>>> --
>
> >>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send

> >>>> an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou ps.com>
> >>>> .
> >>>> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/**groups/opt_out<https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>
> >>>> .

>
> >>>  --
>
> >>> ---
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>
> >> --
> >>  (
> >>   )
> >> |_D Allan
>
> >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> >> Of course I talk to myself,
> >> Sometimes I need expert advice..
>
> >> --
>
> >> ---
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> ""Minds Eye"" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> >> email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

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>
> >  --
>
> > ---
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[Allan H]

sorry Neil Ejukation is a word i cannot find ..  as a result I am not sure what you are saying.. 

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[gabbydott]

Search for the word on the group site and you will find older contexts in which the word has been used. As far as I remember Neil introduced it, sketching up education as being super male in its ejaculation orientation and super female in its child minding orientation. Truth for Dummies.

2013/5/7 Allan H <allan...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

oh  to many drugs,,I guess epilepsy medications have severe side effects 

[Allan H]

thank you  it is starting to make sense now

[archytas]

The short story is as Gabby remembers. 20 years ago I ran a module
called Creative Organisational Practices. The essential choice for
students was to study the comparative relevance of Enid Blyton
(children's stories) and 'In Search of Excellence' to management
practice (both clearly fictional) or do something "creative" to stop
me lecturing on this and do something they invented. That might be
education.

On 7 May, 08:42, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> thank you  it is starting to make sense now
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > oh  to many drugs,,I guess epilepsy medications have severe side effects
>

> > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:33 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Search for the word on the group site and you will find older contexts in
> >> which the word has been used. As far as I remember Neil introduced it,
> >> sketching up education as being super male in its ejaculation orientation
> >> and super female in its child minding orientation. Truth for Dummies.
>

> >> 2013/5/7 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>

>
> >>> sorry Neil Ejukation is a word i cannot find ..  as a result I am not
> >>> sure what you are saying..
>

[Allan H]

ah twenty years ago,,  pre med world..   ah yes  I am not sure I want to remember

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[rigs]

I don't know either work referred to but not sure society could
tolerate this kind of freedom in education or workplace with a few
exceptions. Funny, but the self-taught often succeed. Anyway, society
needs to control its education and workplaces- esp. since the
Industrial Revolution. Another thought is the object of work<education
is often just about money though many are dedicated to ideals and
service and money is an afterthought or nevermind.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Allan H]

Interesting the self taught often succeed..  could be it seems what they do not learn appearantly is morality  or how to justify their actions..  

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[gabbydott]

What Neil says is that all learning is self taught - and so you are always successful. The question here is what you learn. The moral that you acquire while learning sans systematique is definitely more difficult to justify, yes. 

2013/5/9 Allan H <allan...@gmail.com>

[rigs]

You need basic skills to begin with, however, and these are only as
successful as certain other qualities/opportunities are present or
attainable. Morality is generally picked up from family, tribe,
nation, religion, political theory. There are plenty of examples of
evil or poor choices made by popular consent/majority opinion. What is
the ultimate purpose of education? Wisdom? Income? Etc.?

On May 9, 4:11 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What Neil says is that all learning is self taught - and so you are always
> successful. The question here is what you learn. The moral that you acquire
> while learning sans systematique is definitely more difficult to justify,
> yes.
>

> 2013/5/9 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
> > Interesting the self taught often succeed..  could be it seems what they
> > do not learn appearantly is morality  or how to justify their actions..
>

[gabbydott]

The purpose? To become human. I am born human to become human to die human. Hm, does not sell in this short form, does it?

2013/5/10 rigs <rig...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

if the golden calf means more to you that will aid and influence your choices .a lot of it does come from environmental but ultumently it s the choice of your soul. the soul is the controlling being

[rigs]

It depends what your culture holds up as human goals. I am not picking
on Germany, but the Nazis had goals. So did the settlers of the USA
while nearly exterminating the Indians. So does industry that destroys
natural resources devoid of conscience. Etc., etc., etc...

On May 10, 4:07 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The purpose? To become human. I am born human to become human to die human.
> Hm, does not sell in this short form, does it?
>

> 2013/5/10 rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>

[gabbydott]

Sorry, Rigs, but we are very strict here when it comes to comparability of Nazi deeds. Your white settlers history does not qualify as comparable. As much as purpose is not a synonym for goal in this case.

2013/5/10 rigs <rig...@gmail.com>

[James]

I agree that learning is self taught on the condition that most of the
means and content is circumstantial and not chosen, 'systematique' is an
abstraction and so for most I think it has referential truth (as a
resource) but not process modeling truth until the mind has worked out
components, inner systems and interactions.

An aim for building problem solving intelligence, developing experience
with the tools of learning and skill in adapting skills/knowledge to
solve novel (relatively) problems seems a good rough-draft purpose. The
building blocks are important, they don't fall into arrangement the same
for everyone though and that makes it challenging. I've had a few days
where the teachers instruction seemed a variation on 'first world
problems' and many of my schoolmates were hardened in that way, this is
a known unknown, the challenge is an opportunity I think.

Gabby I was pulling a Marvin the Martian earlier, my general usage of
enlightenment seems to be similar to Allan's, or as a 'piercing a veil
of ignorance'. I hoped to get a view from Konara, but your tips were,
hmm 'enlightening' nonetheless. ;-)

>>>>>>>>>>>> 'K�nnen' glasses. The spiritual dimension needed the right

>>>>>>>>>> justification
>>>>>>>>>>>> and calibration of both. We now ask if you:
>>>>>>>>>>>> know-that/know-about/know-how/know-why/know-what.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2013/5/6 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are many forms of enlightenment.. a skilled carpenter
>>>> can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enlightened on crafting wood.. a nurse can be enlightened
>>>> on caring
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for patients . . . there are many different forms of
>>>>>>>>>> enlightenment..
>>>>>>>>>>>>> spiritual enlightenment is perhaps the most confusing of all
>>>>>>>>>> knowledge..
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, gabbydott <
>>>> gabbyd...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Of course a more figurative light is being meant! The
>>>> trouble
>>>>>>>>>> remains
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same. "Enlightenment" is the word. The context makes it

>>>>>>>>>> 'Aufkl�rung' or

[Allan H]

there is great value in systematic enlightenment,,,  I also think though that in needs to be a attachment to those out of the box and not dismissing them..  knowledge and access to it is spread through out humanity.   the problems comes when someone starts saying I deserve more.

'Können' glasses. The spiritual dimension needed the right

justification

and calibration of both. We now ask if you:
know-that/know-about/know-how/know-why/know-what.
2013/5/6 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>

there are many forms of enlightenment.. a skilled carpenter

can be

enlightened on crafting wood.. a nurse can be enlightened

on caring

for patients  . . .   there are many different forms of

enlightenment..

spiritual enlightenment is perhaps the most confusing of all

knowledge..

On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 10:01 AM, gabbydott <

gabbyd...@gmail.com>

wrote:

Of course a more figurative light is being meant! The

trouble

remains

the same. "Enlightenment" is the word. The context makes it

'Aufklärung' or

send

an email to minds-eye+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
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[archytas]

I don't hold with culture as much rigs. Europeans seem to share a
common ancestor as little as 1000 years ago on recent DNA research in
PLOS biology. In cultures around the world one finds penis chopping
(just up the road from here in Horwich or PNG) and gang rape.
Genocide is almost everywhere. The Nazis may even have been an Anglo-
American invention to prevent a Soviet-German block - we have form
before and after using quasi-religious groups to rule for our hidden
agendas. I fancy we should look more to how to change our cultures
and prevent ourselves being manipulated by loonies.

On 11 May, 13:11, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> there is great value in systematic enlightenment,,,  I also think though
> that in needs to be a attachment to those out of the box and not dismissing

> them..  knowledge and access to it is spread through out humanity.   theiet

> >>>>>>>>>>>>> know-that/know-about/know-how/**know-why/know-what.

> ...
>
> read more »

[James]

Glad you said it Allan, my enthusiasm told me to leave the box alone. I
think the term 'unknown commodity' fits, and there are some strange
varieties out there as I've known at least one, others are suspect but
as I can see how they would be driven nuts I won't be out there
interviewing. The curiosity crosses my mind at times on the rare
occasion that I catch the news of whether someone was just another dumb
nut or did we just lose another potential major asset to civilization.
Yes, if we worked to meet the needs of all without exception, I said
this exact thing to someone regarding cultural integration the other day
in regards to our cultural isolation. An ounce of prevention.. a pound
of agression. It isn't even in the common vernacular I'm afraid.

I am at a loss for meaning to your last sentence my instincts throw up
red flags on the subject. A few times I've been able to approach the
subject by reassociating an external self to see things as a story that
I was free to speak the truth of and pursue compassion and say 'Im so
sorry that...', as an older person would say to a child. It's still
blank though, push some more and blank to freeze (it's good to know the
physiological effects of stress disorders there), push more and it's .
morning shits and shakes for a few plus temporary immune system
shutdown. There are a variety of mental disciplines, meditative
techniques, insights into my nature, and preventive disciplines that can
be derived from experiences but I can't tell him 'you deserve better'
because it's relevance ends as a gesture. The process is intuitive with
others, a born talent, I seem to learn in reverse starting with an
intuitive bond but I'm no genius just weird. ;-) My sense of humor is
improving though, not being understood is so damn BORING, it's enough to
make a person develop ADHD.

> <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> What Neil says is that all learning is self taught - and
> so you are always
> successful. The question here is what you learn. The moral
> that you acquire
> while learning sans systematique is definitely more
> difficult to justify,
> yes.
>
> 2013/5/9 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>

>
>
>
> Interesting the self taught often succeed.. could be
> it seems what they
> do not learn appearantly is morality or how to
> justify their actions..
> On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:20 AM, rigs
> <rigs...@gmail.com <mailto:rigs...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I don't know either work referred to but not sure
> society could
> tolerate this kind of freedom in education or
> workplace with a few
> exceptions. Funny, but the self-taught often
> succeed. Anyway, society
> needs to control its education and workplaces-
> esp. since the
> Industrial Revolution. Another thought is the
> object of work<education
> is often just about money though many are
> dedicated to ideals and
> service and money is an afterthought or nevermind.
> On May 7, 1:46 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com

> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> The short story is as Gabby remembers. 20
> years ago I ran a module
> called Creative Organisational Practices. The
> essential choice for
> students was to study the comparative
> relevance of Enid Blyton
> (children's stories) and 'In Search of
> Excellence' to management
> practice (both clearly fictional) or do
> something "creative" to stop
> me lecturing on this and do something they
> invented. That might be
> education.
> On 7 May, 08:42, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> thank you it is starting to make sense now
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Allan H
> <allanh1...@gmail.com

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> oh to many drugs,,I guess epilepsy
> medications have severe side
>
> effects
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:33 AM,
> gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com

> <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>>

>
> wrote:
>
> Search for the word on the group
> site and you will find older
>
> contexts in
>
> which the word has been used. As
> far as I remember Neil introduced
>
> it,
>
> sketching up education as being
> super male in its ejaculation
>
> orientation
>
> and super female in its child
> minding orientation. Truth for
>
> Dummies.
>
> 2013/5/7 Allan H
> <allanh1...@gmail.com

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>

>
> sorry Neil Ejukation is a word
> i cannot find .. as a result I am
>
> not
>
> sure what you are saying..
> On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 9:02
> PM, archytas
> <nwte...@gmail.com

> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>>

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>

> wrote:
>
> knowledge is
> enlightenment --
> spiritual
> enlightenment ---
>
> well
>
> there are
>
> more ideas and
> ramblings people call
> enlightened.. at least
> a enlightened
> carpenter the
> enlightenment will
> show up in his
>
> work.
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2013 at
> 11:13 AM, gabbydott <
>

> gabbyd...@gmail.com <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>>

>
> wrote:
>
> We used to view
> what I think you
> are describing
> through the
>
> 'Wissen' -
>

> 'K�nnen' glasses.

> The spiritual
> dimension needed
> the right
>
> justification
>
> and calibration of
> both. We now ask
> if you:
> know-that/know-about/know-how/know-why/know-what.
> 2013/5/6 Allan H
> <allanh1...@gmail.com

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>

>
> there are many
> forms of
> enlightenment.. a
> skilled carpenter
>
> can be
>
> enlightened on
> crafting
> wood.. a nurse
> can be enlightened
>
> on caring
>
> for patients
> . . . there
> are many
> different forms of
>
> enlightenment..
>
> spiritual
> enlightenment
> is perhaps the
> most confusing
> of all
>
> knowledge..
>
> On Mon, May 6,
> 2013 at 10:01
> AM, gabbydott <
>

> gabbyd...@gmail.com <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>>

>
> wrote:
>
> Of course
> a more
> figurative
> light is
> being
> meant! The
>
> trouble
>
> remains
>
> the same.
> "Enlightenment"
> is the
> word. The
> context
> makes it
>

> 'Aufkl�rung' or

>
> 'Erleuchtung',
> light
> particle
> or light wave.
> 2013/5/6
> James
> <ashkas...@gmail.com

> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>

> kona...@gmail.com <mailto:kona...@gmail.com>>

> rigs...@gmail.com <mailto:rigs...@gmail.com>>

> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>>

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>

> <http://googlegroups.com>
>
> <minds-eye%2Bunsubscribe@googlegrou
> ps.com <http://ps.com>>

> <http://googlegroups.com>
>
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> .
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> more
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>
> - Show quoted text -
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
> (
> )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,
> Sometimes I need expert advice..

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[Molly]

" I seem to learn in reverse starting with an
intuitive bond but I'm no genius just weird"

IMHO being in-tune with the unseen (or infinite) is a particularly
sensitive and rare form of perception. I am always surprised and
delighted to find such a person. Listening to our instincts and
intuitions first, and allowing the material world to validate
naturally is living life inside out.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

I agree with you Molly

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[James]

You have a rapt audience Molly, I have many questions. I would be very
interested in information regarding child developmental psychology and
any individuals who have a story of their experiences and reflections
written. I understand there are many types of people out there and I
didn't think there was a word for it at all other than 'freak'. If you
have knowledge on this I can't express how valuable some would find it.

Do any of them feel like a 'pool of reflection'? Sensitivity to lying
and deceit? Is there any norm, parallels with autism, can they freely
dissociate (as in the complex, but the book is useless in this
instance)? Any statistical research out there, or terms I can use to
find more? Spare nothing please, I will cripple google with the fury of
my searches on your every word.

On 5/12/2013 9:30 AM, Allan H wrote:
> I agree with you Molly
>
>
> On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Molly <moll...@gmail.com
> <mailto:moll...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> " I seem to learn in reverse starting with an
> intuitive bond but I'm no genius just weird"
>
> IMHO being in-tune with the unseen (or infinite) is a particularly
> sensitive and rare form of perception. I am always surprised and
> delighted to find such a person. Listening to our instincts and
> intuitions first, and allowing the material world to validate
> naturally is living life inside out.
>
> On May 11, 11:59 pm, James <ashkas...@gmail.com

> > > <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com

> <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > > What Neil says is that all learning is self taught
> - and
> > > so you are always
> > > successful. The question here is what you learn.
> The moral
> > > that you acquire
> > > while learning sans systematique is definitely more
> > > difficult to justify,
> > > yes.
> >
> > > 2013/5/9 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com
> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>

> > > <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>>
> >
> > > Interesting the self taught often succeed..
> could be
> > > it seems what they
> > > do not learn appearantly is morality or how to
> > > justify their actions..
> > > On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:20 AM, rigs
> > > <rigs...@gmail.com <mailto:rigs...@gmail.com>

> <mailto:rigs...@gmail.com <mailto:rigs...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > > I don't know either work referred to but
> not sure
> > > society could
> > > tolerate this kind of freedom in education or
> > > workplace with a few
> > > exceptions. Funny, but the self-taught often
> > > succeed. Anyway, society
> > > needs to control its education and workplaces-
> > > esp. since the
> > > Industrial Revolution. Another thought is the
> > > object of work<education
> > > is often just about money though many are
> > > dedicated to ideals and
> > > service and money is an afterthought or
> nevermind.
> > > On May 7, 1:46 pm, archytas
> <nwte...@gmail.com <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>

> > > <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com

> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > > The short story is as Gabby remembers. 20
> > > years ago I ran a module
> > > called Creative Organisational
> Practices. The
> > > essential choice for
> > > students was to study the comparative
> > > relevance of Enid Blyton
> > > (children's stories) and 'In Search of
> > > Excellence' to management
> > > practice (both clearly fictional) or do
> > > something "creative" to stop
> > > me lecturing on this and do something they
> > > invented. That might be
> > > education.
> > > On 7 May, 08:42, Allan H
> <allanh1...@gmail.com <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>

> > > <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > > thank you it is starting to make
> sense now
> > > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:41 AM,
> Allan H
> > > <allanh1...@gmail.com
> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>

> > > <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com

> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > > oh to many drugs,,I guess
> epilepsy
> > > medications have severe side
> >
> > > effects
> >
> > > On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:33 AM,
> > > gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com
> <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>

> > > <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com

> <mailto:gabbyd...@gmail.com>>>
> >
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > Search for the word on the
> group
> > > site and you will find older
> >
> > > contexts in
> >
> > > which the word has been
> used. As
> > > far as I remember Neil
> introduced
> >
> > > it,
> >
> > > sketching up education as
> being
> > > super male in its ejaculation
> >
> > > orientation
> >
> > > and super female in its child
> > > minding orientation. Truth for
> >
> > > Dummies.
> >
> > > 2013/5/7 Allan H
> > > <allanh1...@gmail.com
> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>

> > > <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>>

> >
> > > sorry Neil Ejukation
> is a word
> > > i cannot find .. as a
> result I am
> >
> > > not
> >
> > > sure what you are saying..
> > > On Mon, May 6, 2013 at
> 9:02
> > > PM, archytas
> > > <nwte...@gmail.com
> <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>

> > > <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com <mailto:nwte...@gmail.com>>>

> <mailto:minds-eye%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

[rigs]

I'm not sure you can separate that easily from western civilization
and modern cultural off-shoots such as America and Australia. Early
America was quite dependent on European models and very sensitive
about the dependency. The variations are slight- highway robbers/
mounted knights= outlaws/cowboys? You get the idea and it can be a bit
of fun-mostly, but not always- to trace backwards or sideways. Of
course, WWII was a pivot. Economics and science are as much a part of
culture as the arts or social behaviors. Your quasi-religious groups
are really politics in disguise.

[Allan H]

the quasi - religious groups are politics in disguise I think is very true.. the morality or lack of morality play a great deal in politics..  with US tax exempt laws they create a haven for hiding money..  the question is how do you separate them?

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[Molly]

Not quite sure of your focus James. In terns of models, I like Spiral
Dynamics. It allows the recognition and inclusion of everyone in
their own terms.

On May 12, 11:19 pm, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You have a rapt audience Molly, I have many questions. I would be very
> interested in information regarding child developmental psychology and
> any individuals who have a story of their experiences and reflections
> written. I understand there are many types of people out there and I
> didn't think there was a word for it at all other than 'freak'. If you
> have knowledge on this I can't express how valuable some would find it.
>
> Do any of them feel like a 'pool of reflection'? Sensitivity to lying
> and deceit? Is there any norm, parallels with autism, can they freely
> dissociate (as in the complex, but the book is useless in this
> instance)? Any statistical research out there, or terms I can use to
> find more? Spare nothing please, I will cripple google with the fury of
> my searches on your every word.
>
> On 5/12/2013 9:30 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I agree with you Molly
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[archytas]

I've found reading and writing more or less impossible for about 10
years now - this may seem odd as I do a lot of both. More or less
nothing comes without baggage I don't want and, of course, nothing
survives the deconstruction of science or serious history. I know I
don't really want much more than a few friends and security - but even
this is to want a radically different society. Words are so
difficult. Religion is a very difficult example. I'm not against
what Molly or Gabby or Don do with it in their different ways - but it
remains a control fraud in my world-view. Old stories in academe have
the congregation as undergraduates, the sermon deliverers as masters
and PhDs and researchers as the content and truth producers.
Hierarchy is a religious term in origin. I'm revolted, less by the
thought of this fiction, than the ease with which many swallow it.

There is a spiral dynamic at work - we used to consider such in terms
of RSVP cycles or an orchestra practising - you sort of (mostly) are
never starting at the beginning but join in the cycle. A colleague
did a PhD on the children's writer Enid Blyton - fair enough - one can
investigate anything. I have no problem with this in-itself. The
model sadly extends to
a great deal of teaching in which the fictional nature of text-made-
basic is elided. I doubt you know more management and economics after
spending time with business school books, than you would after reading
a few decent novels. A contradiction in all non-science learning
concerns making texts into Idols to worship.

Science only takes us so far and at heart is not very philosophical.
I favour gardening and cooking analogies - the 'theory' has been
called tropical fish realism. I follow advice from science books much
as I follow gardening and cooking books - and think here, given
equality of kitchen materials and food - whether we'd choose to eat my
cooking or rigs'! Skill factors not always in the books and
experiential learning are important. I spend time reading really
complex stuff on the history of science - mostly German work of late
and I'm not at all sure I understand better without the translation.
My story of science starts in approximation by creatures of gravity in
co-evolution - but gravity remains a label. This is some way from
growing plants with recommended amounts of fertiliser, nematode
biological warfare against slugs and strict instruction against
digging in my raised beds to the cats and dog.

Our cats all strayed in at some time and we have a male ginger that
still doesn't trust me (one wonders on the poor thing's past trauma).

> ...
>
> read more »

[archytas]

We are never the finished article I guess James. I don't go directly
for RP's past lives - but imagine we were both once on opposite sides
of the Anglo (and others) - Spanish War (1458 and all that) as able
seamen. Our chances of survival would have been mutually low. The
lousy conditions (literally) for crew were actually the real enemy.
Our heroism would likely have led us both to death from disease. The
Spaniards at least paid their survivors off. Many of the English died
of starvation because they were not paid. Our chances of getting
together, saying '**** this for a game of soldiers', and forming a
sensible society without war were very limited. General recall of
such 'past lives' print the heroic legend rather than reveal the real
history.

There are often no riddles, just chronic and obvious deception. My
dad (who was in WW2) warned me about marching bands, but did little to
disabuse me on patriotism. The indication was always I'd know when I
grew up, but in his own way he filled my head with twaddle, making me
feel I was a disappointment. I think the riddles occur for many
reasons, not least that we find dealing with the powerful a matter of
supplication - a matter of deep biology. There may be some inner
light - but I don't experience any other than as distraction from the
world that will be there next time I walk into it. The ginger cat has
no 'reason' to be scared of me - but I do wonder if such trauma casts
a shadow through our generations.

An old friend once told me she wished she had been 'born good' and I
suspect the morality available to us is very confusing. A current
interest of mine - why clever people are so stupid - is based in my
dissatisfaction with moral theories. The topic starts with a simple
question doing the rounds. We could put it this way.

James is married and looking at Gabby, but Gabby is looking at Neil
who isn't married'. From this information, which of the following
options is correct in terms of whether a married person is looking at
an unmarried one:
1. Yes
2. No
3.Not enough information to decide.

Most people conclude there is not enough information to decide. The
'reason' is we don't know whether Gabby is married or not. The idea
of the question is to get at our general intolerance of ambiguity.
Scores out of ten on questions like this are typically 0 -2.

To cut the game short here the real answer is 'yes'. In a teaching
situation one leaves a class to ponder. Quite a few suggest stuff
like scouring the group logs to see if Gabby has ever told us whether
she is married or not, but in fact we don't need to know. The answer
is this:
If Gabby isn't married then married James is looking a an unmarried
person.
If Gabby is married a married person is looking at unmarried Neil.
So whether Gabby is married or not, someone married is looking at an
unmarried person. Simples, but 9 out of 10 get stuff like this wrong
unless they have been given the answer.

The research continues in many directions - neuroscience being the
main one, the establishment of RQ another and the behaviour of
intelligent people gambling in banking another. In the UK we have
discovered that Hillsborough (a soccer tragedy involving many deaths
23 years back) led to a massive cover-up by all the relevant
authorities - nearly all officials lied or were forced to lie - 160
police statements were changed, the victims were vilified as 'drunk'
and so on. I guess most members f this group would hope to have acted
morally and told the truth in such a situation - but statistical
evidence is against us. I find myself less concerned with the 3000
year failure of virtue ethics and peering into the subjective - and
more with how honesty is not much a policy at all.

Much subjectivity involves ambiguity and as we get to k now much more
about brain states deception may become more difficult whether one
introspects or speaks amongst others. If James and I had met some
years after the Armada would this have been as enemies or people who
knew they had both been duped by a greater enemy who threw their arms
around each other? Circles in the spirals of the windmills
notwithstanding, much could be made simple without being rendered
facile.

On May 14, 3:27 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've found reading and writing more or less impossible for about 10
> years now - this may seem odd as I do a lot of both.  More or less
> nothing comes without baggage I don't want and, of course, nothing
> survives the deconstruction of science or serious history.  I know I
> don't really want much more than a few friends and security - but e

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

I actually do understand Neil,,  it is only recently it has been falling totally in place.  It is an answer I was not expecting.. Tim said it correctly :  we are immortal beings in a state of earthism.

> ...
>
> read more »

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[archytas]

I go along with that Allan - for what its worth I think we are
investigating our past.
Anyone who wants a taste of spiral dynamics (I'm not a fan) could take
a look here - http://www.edumar.cl/documentos/SD_version_for_constellation5.pdf
- the download takes a while because its somekind of power point
lecture. That plus Wikki are free.

There have been various attempts to explain simply why we are clinging
to this rock - often called 'a guide for the perplexed'. Montaigne is
an old one - but I read EF Schumacher only to discover it was all
cobblers on page one!
There is a book by Barbara Kellermann - 'The End of Leadership' - and
I think that's quite good at demonstrating how we end up dominated by
false history. My elder brother and sister were my first heroes - and
as a consequence of a brilliant story of my brother's (Wacky races 20
years before) in which he mentioned carbon dioxide as a white gas I
ticked that box on a chemistry multiple choice and only got 99%.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Molly]

There are many tedious third and fourth hand interpretations of the
Graves material. Some may find this second hand piece tedious because
it is not organized into sections etc., but Don Beck and his partner,
Cohen, wrote the textbook on the model. I guess it is the Maslow
model with added dimension, but it does allow each his own,
recognizing that we all move up and down the spiral of integrated
development at any given time in our lives. Understanding brings
compassion. Lack of understanding - Babel. We can analyze it all day
long but are we really living if that is how we spend our time?
Watching the cat, these days (if I had one) sounds to me more in touch
with the clarity and joy that life has to offer.

[rigs]

A secular ideology can function in the same deceitful manner re
religion/political motives/designs.

[rigs]

I like an organic model based on the Great Chain of Being of the
Middle Ages.

[rigs]

You would argue with Aristotle, I presume. Hierarchy exists for a
reason.

You might be interested in an article on John le Carre (I think his
real name is David Cornwall) which appeared recently on the BBC site.
Sigh...at 81 he is still a dreamboat- and that's just his photo! He
has some more to write about- the demonization of Islam.

[Allan H]

I think a lot of the demonetization of Islam come from with in Islam itself and the massive amounts of killing and murdering women and children, Most of the guys i know that are islamic in faith I like.. apparent condoning of these actions by the leadership..  now to be fair I was shocked to hear the Islamic denying the Boston Bomber was Islamic and refused to bury him inn the islamic cemetery..  shock and surprise

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[gabbydott]

Demonetarizing of extremists would be the next logical step, but why would I go there if it doesn't affect me? /mineral stage exploring photosynthesis/

[Allan H]

me either,,   it does concern me though as it is hard to predict where theses terrorist extremist will strike ..  I don't understand  extremists..,,   LOL, , , I guess I have to include myself in the extremist category.

[rigs]

Demonization occurs for many reasons. One could cite the liberal
media's treatment of conservatives as one example, but there are many
in our wild west character lynching aided by the ease of
communication, cowardly writers and the frenzy of the mob. Syria still
lags behind the death and destruction of America's Civil War (700,000
dead), for instance or the various wars and conquests under the
banners of Christian countries.

[rigs]

The Boston Bombers were on welfare. Money is not the problem or
solution.//"No man is an island..."- John Donne.

On May 15, 2:49 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Demonetarizing of extremists would be the next logical step, but why would
> I go there if it doesn't affect me? /mineral stage exploring photosynthesis/

> Am 15.05.2013 09:04 schrieb "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
> > I think a lot of the demonetization of Islam come from with in Islam
> > itself and the massive amounts of killing and murdering women and children,
> > Most of the guys i know that are islamic in faith I
> > like.. apparent condoning of these actions by the leadership..  now to be
> > fair I was shocked to hear the Islamic denying the Boston Bomber was
> > Islamic and refused to bury him inn the islamic cemetery..  shock and
> > surprise
>

[Molly]

> ...
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> read more »

[Molly]

In response to James' inquiry about understanding himself as he
observes his own process - intuition first - it seems you are your own
best authority, James.

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[rigs]

Another author I enjoyed was John Fowles- a very different nature than
le Carre. I think le Carre reminds me of a love who died in his 40's-
how he would have aged, etc.

[Allan H]

what does welfare have to do with the problem?  I see no relationship.

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[James]

That may be true of us all in the sense that the process of learning is
undertaken within each in unique ways, the external stimulus is valuable
in facilitating or motivating the inner. Taking part in that process as
facilitator to me represents the height of learning. It hit me that I
was wrong about something, I look to the trees for guidance at times, it
is fascinating how a single breath for them is what we call one day, it
reminds me that I am not a machine and need to breathe life deeply.
Whatever that means. :)

Thank you and others for the valuable and thoughtful responses, some
especially who are waiting patiently while I seem to drop a bomb then
disappear. I very much value the process and see it here frequently in
diverse ways.

Best foot forward as they say, and godspeed to us all. I'm rushing here,
so much to do! :)

>> read more �

[Allan H]

I think you are very right James external stimulus has always helped me and I enjoy it very much..

read more »

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[rigs]

Our senses lead us to understanding the wider world; they expand our
thoughts and understanding and can lead us to a virtuous life however
some never get beyond. This is an ancient thought when the stars and
heaven were sacred and man was a creature within Nature rather than
outside of it attempting to control Nature. (Not sure the world holds
a virtuous life in high esteem, however.)

[rigs]

The ancients also had their systems and models and I cannot see that
the moderns have improved human character and society in several ways
although in other respects there are improvements.

[rigs]

I misunderstood Gabby, perhaps. Demonetarizing sounds like cutting off
the money supply to me.

[rigs]

Watching the cat sounds lovely. I am watching buds spring to leaf. The
oak will soon have leaves the size of a plate but now they are still
lacy- dangling the branches.//BUT- I need a new roof on the garage-
after 45 years! Roofer comes tomorrow. Lord, spare the roof beams.
Amen.

On May 14, 6:40 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Allan H]

45 years is a long time to to have to roof   ..  good luck..

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[Molly]

There is a tree outside the second story bedroom in my house that I
watch for hours at a time, but not often enough. the way it dances
with the wind is a real fascination to me, and helps me lose my
thoughts and find my peace. I was much better at being still as a
kid. I grew up near a forest preserve, and would climb a tree in the
morning, find a comfortable branch, and lay there all day watching the
world go by. I don't seem to have that kind of time or patience
anymore, but wish I did.

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[RP Singh]

Man was and is within Nature , there is the outer Nature and there is the Nature which is within you --your genes , emotions and drives which control your thought processes. You learn only that you are capable of learning and all your efforts arise from within you , though apparently you are controlling your mind but actually that control comes from within and that is the reason it is said that it is the will of God which man follows. That which is innate is above you and your conscious efforts are determined by the inner you , your innermost Nature.

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[archytas]

Nietzsche at his most idiot is consumed by a marching band and thinks
he finds the will to power - what an unspeakable dullard he was RP.
 There may be a 'reason' for hierarchy rigs (termites and social
spiders do well without) - but how do we know whether its time is over
or whether we have an abusive form?  There's a form of tame
conservatism like Nietzsche's that is little more than pandering to
varieties of the divine right of kings.  Hierarchic organisation is
clearly in nature without human assistance but we can surely choose
not to make the worst of it as we do now.  In my world things reached
the point when I could only drop out.  Bosses have become
opportunistic, libidinal, grasping scum and everyday a battle to
prevent them taking more and more in the farce of a parasite financial
system that has become bigger by far than any real work we do.  This
is the land of plenty and yet they keep all they can in penury or
fealty.  Even monkeys won't work for cucumber when they see the going
rate for others is grapes.




Spiral dynamics reminds me a bit of the helter-skelter on Helsby Hill
- broken when I might have enjoyed it as a kid and now restored to
working glory.  I guess our rebuilds involve a lot of stripping down
and that sense of a final, restored product that might be a bit scatty
 in the standard economic sense.  Molly suggests its Maslow plus - I'm
reminded of Ericsson's 7 stages of man.  I went to a biography group
for a while when about 30.  I have thought since that we spend a lot
of time not sharing experience to the extent we lose some basic
solidarity in knowing we all find a lot tough.  I'm struck that real
change needs a better understanding of our biology.  Leadership seems
much less to do with great leader myths and much more to do with a
dynamic spread across groups such that even if one culls the current
crop of leaders another will replace them. What we need to do is
change the institutional form.  This has been obvious to me for 20
years - but it's depressing knowledge, as is much in self-development
where you realise you have to cut your cloth to the fashion of a less
than ideal world.  I don't go for paradox embrace when the cupboard is
bare.

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[Molly]

I agree with you there, Neil, it is hard to embrace paradox when
you've been knocked down to the level of survival. this brings out
the warrior in some, defeatist in others. Yet, I've noticed along the
way, that when the end is near, and survival is no longer an option,
embrace of the paradox comes naturally.

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[RP Singh]

When I started out meditating I decided that I would stop all voluntary thinking. I found that though most thinking started out involuntarily , the will became attached to it and it became voluntary, that is , all thinking is voluntary. So what to stop ? I decided that I would stop thinking along my weaker side and found that it helped me a lot.

[Allan H]

for what it is worth when I try to meditate my objective goal is to become thoughtless ...  devoid of all thought.. I only really succeeded once while I was out sailing off Florida leaving the keys and somewhere  ah silence no thought  until I decided to go see the shuttle..  I was off Bermuda and headed west.. the US Navy and Coast Guard did not like my turn.. and verified who I was..  it is not exactly fun having a couple of destroyers bearing down on you.. it was a experience coming out of it..  I know where I was and where I ended up   between I have ho idea,,  can not recall any thoughts at all..   was very cool.. 

[Molly]

Not sure it is something you can try to do. Rather, when the silence
comes like the beat between the notes, sustaining it is not a matter
of will but awareness. Being fully aware in the silence of mind is
the only way I can describe it. The more you are there, the more it
comes until it is the natural state, and thoughts come and go in
between the silence. To me it seems thoughts have a mechanical
purpose, are integral to living and needed for the rational and memory
functions. But a mind constantly thinking, it seems to me, is not the
natural state. During times of high stress, that constant thinking
disturbs my peace.

On May 18, 11:08 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> for what it is worth when I try to meditate my objective goal is to become
> thoughtless ...  devoid of all thought.. I only really succeeded once while
> I was out sailing off Florida leaving the keys and somewhere  ah silence no
> thought  until I decided to go see the shuttle..  I was off Bermuda and
> headed west.. the US Navy and Coast Guard did not like my turn.. and
> verified who I was..  it is not exactly fun having a couple of destroyers
> bearing down on you.. it was a experience coming out of it..  I know where
> I was and where I ended up   between I have ho idea,,  can not recall any
> thoughts at all..   was very cool..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:40 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > When I started out meditating I decided that I would stop all voluntary
> > thinking. I found that though most thinking started out involuntarily , the
> > will became attached to it and it became voluntary, that is , all thinking
> > is voluntary. So what to stop ? I decided that I would stop thinking along
> > my weaker side and found that it helped me a lot.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

you always explain it better than I can Molly,, thanks

> ...
>
> read more »

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