self forgiveness
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Molly
Jul 17, 2012, 6:50:23 AM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I have a friend who is contemplating self forgiveness. Any suggestions?
rigsy03
Jul 17, 2012, 7:33:14 AM7/17/12
to "Minds Eye"
How serious is the offense?
Molly
Jul 17, 2012, 7:53:50 AM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Oh, my impression is that she is going through something more general. Having memories that might seem to be regret, if we attach that to them. I don't think she is thinking about any one action, rather, the course that her life has taken. What she might have done differently if given another chance.
Allan H
Jul 17, 2012, 9:33:39 AM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Hoi Molly,
self forgiveness is kid of a strange process,, forgiveness involves the idea we have done something wrong or doing something harmful to ourselves or others. It also implies that we want to change our ways.. An example might be my being alcoholic. I stopped drinking in december of 1979 (one or to days ago..) . The part of the process of forgiving myself for the harm I was doing to myself was I had to stop drinking. Simply put I had to change my ways so I 'sinned' no more. From there I had to attempt to straighten out the harm that I had done, I needed to take an moral inventory.. asking forgiveness where possible but I had no right to take others inventory to justify my actions by what they did to me.. in the process you find forgiveness.
One of the best sources for understanding is the 12 step program of AA,, unfortunately some lawyers have gotten involved.. but the program is still out there and it really will work on anything.. you just have to apply the principles .. they really do work and forgiveness is there. The 12 steps (program) is an excellent set written of guidelines that have proven their value.
Allan
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Molly <moll...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a friend who is contemplating self forgiveness. Any suggestions?
--
(
(
)
|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Allan H
Jul 17, 2012, 9:37:02 AM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Allan H
Jul 17, 2012, 9:40:23 AM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Sorry she will need to change the word "alcohol" to what ever the problem seems to be.. lol it really is a generic program.
Allan
gabbydott
Jul 17, 2012, 10:20:54 AM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for pointing out this source of spirituality as well.
It leaves me undecided as to who has been instrumentalized and misused more: God or the Sinner.
Allan H
Jul 17, 2012, 11:01:04 AM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
lol Gabby what do you expect from a bunch of drunks. I for one am very grateful for it and it works very well for me at least especially since i really did do the first three steps.. once i did them including both parts of step one.. it works very well .. all that I understood started really falling into place.
It is the most universal program that I know of.
Allan
archytas
Jul 17, 2012, 2:32:11 PM7/17/12
to "Minds Eye"
A likely problem is identifying the origin of the trauma that demands
self-forgiveness. This is widely held as impossible in therapeutic
theory. A lot of people go down the Blair route and Catholic
absolution. I still want to know who I was working for when I did
things supposedly for Queen and country. I still feel guilt about
being scared at the time - though this is actually what got me
through. A lot of my colleagues were traumatised by the discovery
they were not warriors after all, some by the shame of doing what we
were told as necessary. Much need for self-forgiveness arises outside
the individual and my sense of relief is not through introspection.
On Jul 17, 4:01 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> lol Gabby what do you expect from a bunch of drunks. I for one am
> very grateful for it and it works very well for me at least especially
> since i really did do the first three steps.. once i did them including
> both parts of step one.. it works very well .. all that I understood
> started really falling into place.
> It is the most universal program that I know of.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 4:20 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for pointing out this source of spirituality as well.
>
> > It leaves me undecided as to who has been instrumentalized and misused
> > more: God or the Sinner.
>
self-forgiveness. This is widely held as impossible in therapeutic
theory. A lot of people go down the Blair route and Catholic
absolution. I still want to know who I was working for when I did
things supposedly for Queen and country. I still feel guilt about
being scared at the time - though this is actually what got me
through. A lot of my colleagues were traumatised by the discovery
they were not warriors after all, some by the shame of doing what we
were told as necessary. Much need for self-forgiveness arises outside
the individual and my sense of relief is not through introspection.
On Jul 17, 4:01 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> lol Gabby what do you expect from a bunch of drunks. I for one am
> very grateful for it and it works very well for me at least especially
> since i really did do the first three steps.. once i did them including
> both parts of step one.. it works very well .. all that I understood
> started really falling into place.
> It is the most universal program that I know of.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 4:20 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for pointing out this source of spirituality as well.
>
> > It leaves me undecided as to who has been instrumentalized and misused
> > more: God or the Sinner.
>
> > On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Sorry she will need to change the word "alcohol" to what ever the
> >> problem seems to be.. lol it really is a generic program.
> >> Allan
> >>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
>
>
> >> Sorry she will need to change the word "alcohol" to what ever the
> >> problem seems to be.. lol it really is a generic program.
> >> Allan
> >>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
>
> >> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
> >>> there is the reference if she wants to look at them.
> >>> Allan
>
>
> >>>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
> >>> there is the reference if she wants to look at them.
> >>> Allan
>
Vam
Jul 17, 2012, 3:18:41 PM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I have no idea what self-forgiveness means in my universe apart from taking a good hard look at that sentiment and its cause in me, under my own clear glare.
It then would suggest action ... in truth :
- external > > apology for wrong committed, penance for making good the loss, etc. AND
- internal > > treading the alternate path to freedom from such errors.
Allan H
Jul 17, 2012, 3:54:55 PM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Very interesting thought Vam
Allan
Allan H
Jul 17, 2012, 4:13:15 PM7/17/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I think an apology is really not enough when you have harmed someone. A person or corporation needs to right the wrong undoing the harm done as far as possible.
Farrow often you hear, oh I'm sorry while continuing down the same old path unrepentant.
Allan
rigsy03
Jul 17, 2012, 10:00:52 PM7/17/12
to "Minds Eye"
I do this and have concluded it could have been far worse but who
knows? Don't you think we bring a more mature understanding and
questioning to our lives as we get older? We've learned by experience,
hopefully.
> > > I have a friend who is contemplating self forgiveness. Any suggestions?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
knows? Don't you think we bring a more mature understanding and
questioning to our lives as we get older? We've learned by experience,
hopefully.
>
> - Show quoted text -
rigsy03
Jul 17, 2012, 10:10:34 PM7/17/12
to "Minds Eye"
But self-forgiveness is a key feature of Al-Anon and children of
alcoholics also, Allan- and just as difficult as the process gone
through by the drinker. //I rarely heard anyone speak of remorse in
AA- in fact many were still celebrating their messes when they gave
talks.
On Jul 17, 8:33 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi Molly,
> self forgiveness is kid of a strange process,, forgiveness involves the
> idea we have done something wrong or doing something harmful to ourselves
> or others. It also implies that we want to change our ways.. An example
> might be my being alcoholic. I stopped drinking in december of 1979 (one
> or to days ago..) . The part of the process of forgiving myself for the
> harm I was doing to myself was I had to stop drinking. Simply put I had to
> change my ways so I 'sinned' no more. From there I had to attempt to
> straighten out the harm that I had done, I needed to take an moral
> inventory.. asking forgiveness where possible but I had no right to take
> others inventory to justify my actions by what they did to me.. in the
> process you find forgiveness.
>
> One of the best sources for understanding is the 12 step program of AA,,
> unfortunately some lawyers have gotten involved.. but the program is
> still out there and it really will work on anything.. you just have to
> apply the principles .. they really do work and forgiveness is there. The
> 12 steps (program) is an excellent set written of guidelines that have
> proven their value.
> Allan
>
alcoholics also, Allan- and just as difficult as the process gone
through by the drinker. //I rarely heard anyone speak of remorse in
AA- in fact many were still celebrating their messes when they gave
talks.
On Jul 17, 8:33 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi Molly,
> self forgiveness is kid of a strange process,, forgiveness involves the
> idea we have done something wrong or doing something harmful to ourselves
> or others. It also implies that we want to change our ways.. An example
> might be my being alcoholic. I stopped drinking in december of 1979 (one
> or to days ago..) . The part of the process of forgiving myself for the
> harm I was doing to myself was I had to stop drinking. Simply put I had to
> change my ways so I 'sinned' no more. From there I had to attempt to
> straighten out the harm that I had done, I needed to take an moral
> inventory.. asking forgiveness where possible but I had no right to take
> others inventory to justify my actions by what they did to me.. in the
> process you find forgiveness.
>
> One of the best sources for understanding is the 12 step program of AA,,
> unfortunately some lawyers have gotten involved.. but the program is
> still out there and it really will work on anything.. you just have to
> apply the principles .. they really do work and forgiveness is there. The
> 12 steps (program) is an excellent set written of guidelines that have
> proven their value.
> Allan
>
rigsy03
Jul 17, 2012, 10:33:11 PM7/17/12
to "Minds Eye"
We can piece things together later on and get a pretty good idea
ourselves sans shrink or padre though it does need time. Our military
suicide rate is high as well as post tramatic stress. Who and what and
why are places to start. (I don't understand your last sentence.) //
It's good to read you again. Hope all is well with your book.
> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
ourselves sans shrink or padre though it does need time. Our military
suicide rate is high as well as post tramatic stress. Who and what and
why are places to start. (I don't understand your last sentence.) //
It's good to read you again. Hope all is well with your book.
rigsy03
Jul 17, 2012, 10:44:52 PM7/17/12
to "Minds Eye"
Don't forget Jesus- He seemed more comfortable than God around
sinners. :-)
On Jul 17, 9:20 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for pointing out this source of spirituality as well.
>
> It leaves me undecided as to who has been instrumentalized and misused
> more: God or the Sinner.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sorry she will need to change the word "alcohol" to what ever the problem
> > seems to be.. lol it really is a generic program.
> > Allan
> >http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
>
sinners. :-)
On Jul 17, 9:20 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for pointing out this source of spirituality as well.
>
> It leaves me undecided as to who has been instrumentalized and misused
> more: God or the Sinner.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sorry she will need to change the word "alcohol" to what ever the problem
> > seems to be.. lol it really is a generic program.
> > Allan
> >http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
>
> > On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
> >> there is the reference if she wants to look at them.
> >> Allan
>
>
> >>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
> >> there is the reference if she wants to look at them.
> >> Allan
>
> >> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Oh, my impression is that she is going through something more general.
> >>> Having memories that might seem to be regret, if we attach that to them.
> >>> I don't think she is thinking about any one action, rather, the course
> >>> that her life has taken. What she might have done differently if given
> >>> another chance.
>
> >>> On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 7:33:14 AM UTC-4, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> >>>> How serious is the offense?
>
> >>>> On Jul 17, 5:50 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> > I have a friend who is contemplating self forgiveness. Any
> >>>> suggestions?
>
> >> --
> >> (
> >> )
> >> |_D Allan
>
> >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
>
> >>> Oh, my impression is that she is going through something more general.
> >>> Having memories that might seem to be regret, if we attach that to them.
> >>> I don't think she is thinking about any one action, rather, the course
> >>> that her life has taken. What she might have done differently if given
> >>> another chance.
>
> >>> On Tuesday, July 17, 2012 7:33:14 AM UTC-4, rigsy03 wrote:
>
> >>>> How serious is the offense?
>
> >>>> On Jul 17, 5:50 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> > I have a friend who is contemplating self forgiveness. Any
> >>>> suggestions?
>
> >> --
> >> (
> >> )
> >> |_D Allan
>
> >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > --
> > (
> > )
> > |_D Allan
>
rigsy03
Jul 17, 2012, 10:48:41 PM7/17/12
to "Minds Eye"
Am starting year #3 next week without AA. I gave up drunks, dry-drunks
and phonies so I read a lot! lol
On Jul 17, 10:01 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> lol Gabby what do you expect from a bunch of drunks. I for one am
> very grateful for it and it works very well for me at least especially
> since i really did do the first three steps.. once i did them including
> both parts of step one.. it works very well .. all that I understood
> started really falling into place.
> It is the most universal program that I know of.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 4:20 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for pointing out this source of spirituality as well.
>
> > It leaves me undecided as to who has been instrumentalized and misused
> > more: God or the Sinner.
>
and phonies so I read a lot! lol
On Jul 17, 10:01 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> lol Gabby what do you expect from a bunch of drunks. I for one am
> very grateful for it and it works very well for me at least especially
> since i really did do the first three steps.. once i did them including
> both parts of step one.. it works very well .. all that I understood
> started really falling into place.
> It is the most universal program that I know of.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 4:20 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for pointing out this source of spirituality as well.
>
> > It leaves me undecided as to who has been instrumentalized and misused
> > more: God or the Sinner.
>
> > On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Sorry she will need to change the word "alcohol" to what ever the
> >> problem seems to be.. lol it really is a generic program.
> >> Allan
> >>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
>
>
> >> Sorry she will need to change the word "alcohol" to what ever the
> >> problem seems to be.. lol it really is a generic program.
> >> Allan
> >>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
>
> >> On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
> >>> there is the reference if she wants to look at them.
> >>> Allan
>
>
> >>>http://www.aa.org/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf
> >>> there is the reference if she wants to look at them.
> >>> Allan
>
Allan H
Jul 18, 2012, 3:16:06 AM7/18/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
That is very true Rigsy,, what people are trying to do is show that it is possible to succeed and stop drink,, unfortunately today there has become a speakers circuit and a lot of egos which is not always the best. Al-Anon is much harder all a drunk as to do is stop drinking .. Al-anon has to start with the mess the drunk created with no clear starting point.
When you really look at the 12 steps they are there to improve the quality of you life.
Allan
Allan H
Jul 18, 2012, 3:23:00 AM7/18/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Don't forget Jesus- He seemed more comfortable than God around
sinners. :-)
sinners. :-)
Could it be people are more comfortable around Jesus than they are around God? Could it be they are trying to find excuses for failing to live a moral ethical and truthful manner?
Allan
James
Jul 18, 2012, 11:59:34 PM7/18/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
On 7/17/2012 6:50 AM, Molly wrote:
> I have a friend who is contemplating self forgiveness. Any suggestions?
>
Look back from a context of greater maturity, in the meantime apply time
> I have a friend who is contemplating self forgiveness. Any suggestions?
>
and experience: pursue excellence, appreciate moderation, respect
processes.
Through personal growth pieces of the story begin falling in place,
motives are replaced with expanded and stronger ones.
Morbid guilt might be another matter, where it mixes with identity seems
very elusive. I have a friend that would much appreciate your input.
Allan H
Jul 19, 2012, 3:48:36 AM7/19/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I know I am simple James, but what do you mean by morbid guilt?
Allan
rigsy03
Jul 19, 2012, 9:38:07 AM7/19/12
to "Minds Eye"
Jumping in here- my idea of "morbid guilt" would be that which
paralyzes development past a trauma. It is different than the tumbling/
domino reaction that a traumatic event sparks- more like physics or
chemical reaction, in a way. But...what is identity?
I don't find you "simple", Allan. Why do you disparage yourself? Thank
you for being "here" so loyally- whatever "here" means! :-)
Back to your comment about AA- essentially a seflish program of
necessity. Older alcoholics who had money would go to spas and
steambath their way to sobriety- until the next bout. I never even
heard of AA until I was in my 30's- at that point I joined an Alanon
group at a nearby church but think the divorce rate pretty high from
that group- it probably was part of the motive of joining up- keeping
score, so to speak, rather than understanding the spiritual element.
At the same time, treatment centers started springing up- last I
heard, getting sober might cost 5 figures a month. There is another
element now of drug addicts going to AA rather than narco-something
which introduces a whole new can of worms. Anyway, I think drinking
alone is what got me in trouble when all the children had "graduated"
the nest- but I was ripe, anyway. lol I really don't miss drinking but
have thought if I got a fatal diagnosis in the future, I might need a
few shots of single malt whiskey to ease the way to eternity.
On Jul 19, 2:48 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know I am simple James, but what do you mean by morbid guilt?
> Allan
>
paralyzes development past a trauma. It is different than the tumbling/
domino reaction that a traumatic event sparks- more like physics or
chemical reaction, in a way. But...what is identity?
I don't find you "simple", Allan. Why do you disparage yourself? Thank
you for being "here" so loyally- whatever "here" means! :-)
Back to your comment about AA- essentially a seflish program of
necessity. Older alcoholics who had money would go to spas and
steambath their way to sobriety- until the next bout. I never even
heard of AA until I was in my 30's- at that point I joined an Alanon
group at a nearby church but think the divorce rate pretty high from
that group- it probably was part of the motive of joining up- keeping
score, so to speak, rather than understanding the spiritual element.
At the same time, treatment centers started springing up- last I
heard, getting sober might cost 5 figures a month. There is another
element now of drug addicts going to AA rather than narco-something
which introduces a whole new can of worms. Anyway, I think drinking
alone is what got me in trouble when all the children had "graduated"
the nest- but I was ripe, anyway. lol I really don't miss drinking but
have thought if I got a fatal diagnosis in the future, I might need a
few shots of single malt whiskey to ease the way to eternity.
On Jul 19, 2:48 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know I am simple James, but what do you mean by morbid guilt?
> Allan
>
Allan H
Jul 19, 2012, 12:44:21 PM7/19/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Morbid would be an excessive preoccupation with and event or sin.. Finally started to figure it out..
Yes I know of the excessive cost of people taking advantage of a program that can be for free. When I came into AA the rich mans programs were just starting.. I was to poor so they didn't want anything to do with me.. so I became sober the old fashion way, not drinking and going to meetings.. it will still work today but that is to cheap for the greedy medical community.
Allan
rigsy03
Jul 19, 2012, 6:35:42 PM7/19/12
to "Minds Eye"
I had another thought on self-forgiveness/morbid preoccupation: One
may have lost all perspective and forgotten the suffering in this
world and neglected to count the blessings. Then it also depends on
one's culture which might inflict a very distorted view of anything it
choses so the individual doesn't know any better. Families can also be
so dysfunctional that normal doesn't exist or develop properly.
Not sure the doctors are making profits as much as insurance and drug
companies, shrinks and "counsellors". Then, the attorneys!
may have lost all perspective and forgotten the suffering in this
world and neglected to count the blessings. Then it also depends on
one's culture which might inflict a very distorted view of anything it
choses so the individual doesn't know any better. Families can also be
so dysfunctional that normal doesn't exist or develop properly.
Not sure the doctors are making profits as much as insurance and drug
companies, shrinks and "counsellors". Then, the attorneys!
James
Jul 20, 2012, 12:30:49 AM7/20/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Not sure if they would like the term "preoccupation" with the
connotation of cultural values laden judgment but it sounds fair. Mostly
his perspective sounds reasonable given circumstances and I can relate
to a bit of it, but "morbid" seemed the best way to describe the
challenges. For one this person takes personal responsibility very
seriously but gives no sign of it because it is a "vulnerability" people
will take advantage of, he seems to have an automatic fear response to
happiness (seems like hypervigilance but might be pathological fear), is
very opposed personally to spontaneous or excited behaviors but sees it
as self discipline and carefully manages what thoughts or emotions are
shown. Much of this sounds like he took life's lessons a little too
seriously from a young age, but that is where identity comes into play.
The existential definition that I think results by one's experience with
the world, and how that shapes subconscious behaviors, not known but
responded to automatically. I think that is where much of the difficulty
comes from in his case, the nature of his existence defined by the
world, and the resistant morbid part is the response to those pressures.
Where the world judged him harshly for being different he learned most
couldn't find waldo on a plain sheet of paper. After listing a number of
things that are different he had a smile and pointed out that his
challenges are not so different from that of many others except the
circumstances (existential definition I take it) in sum were not typical
enough for conventional answers, they all lead back to square one.
It was strange to hear strong emotions from such a disciplined person
but I found it somewhat relieving, he still doesn't fit the mold on
offer, it is inspiring. So I'm not sure what kind of advice to give or
ask about, perhaps there is more perspective out there somewhere?
connotation of cultural values laden judgment but it sounds fair. Mostly
his perspective sounds reasonable given circumstances and I can relate
to a bit of it, but "morbid" seemed the best way to describe the
challenges. For one this person takes personal responsibility very
seriously but gives no sign of it because it is a "vulnerability" people
will take advantage of, he seems to have an automatic fear response to
happiness (seems like hypervigilance but might be pathological fear), is
very opposed personally to spontaneous or excited behaviors but sees it
as self discipline and carefully manages what thoughts or emotions are
shown. Much of this sounds like he took life's lessons a little too
seriously from a young age, but that is where identity comes into play.
The existential definition that I think results by one's experience with
the world, and how that shapes subconscious behaviors, not known but
responded to automatically. I think that is where much of the difficulty
comes from in his case, the nature of his existence defined by the
world, and the resistant morbid part is the response to those pressures.
Where the world judged him harshly for being different he learned most
couldn't find waldo on a plain sheet of paper. After listing a number of
things that are different he had a smile and pointed out that his
challenges are not so different from that of many others except the
circumstances (existential definition I take it) in sum were not typical
enough for conventional answers, they all lead back to square one.
It was strange to hear strong emotions from such a disciplined person
but I found it somewhat relieving, he still doesn't fit the mold on
offer, it is inspiring. So I'm not sure what kind of advice to give or
ask about, perhaps there is more perspective out there somewhere?
James
Jul 20, 2012, 12:46:25 AM7/20/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
In case anyone is wondering he is okay with my posting, and found it
humorous to point out people will probably think I am talking about
myself, and saying so would make it more obvious. I told him it
shouldn't (as in ought not) make a difference, and he shot me an
appreciative grin at the sentiment, "Indeed, but this is your project."
What an interesting fellow. lol
humorous to point out people will probably think I am talking about
myself, and saying so would make it more obvious. I told him it
shouldn't (as in ought not) make a difference, and he shot me an
appreciative grin at the sentiment, "Indeed, but this is your project."
What an interesting fellow. lol
Allan H
Jul 20, 2012, 2:12:57 AM7/20/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
We have a BINGO! A extreme and massive part of the Corporate greed,, and show me more than one that is not a corporation of some sort.
Allan
Allan H
Jul 20, 2012, 2:22:01 AM7/20/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Personally I do take my personal responsibility very seriously,, but I am not preoccupied or at least I hope.. I do think there is a certain responsibility one has to keep vigilance and pull the fire alarm when there is a 'fire' unfortunately there are a lot of fires..
Allan
rigsy03
Jul 21, 2012, 5:51:35 AM7/21/12
to "Minds Eye"
Defined by the world might be a way of saying how eager it is to
standardize the individual into group form/identity. Fear of happiness
may be a reflex (hot stove example).// There is unearned guilt to
consider, perhaps.// Was thinking that some write a three act plot of
life when five are possible- exit right. :-)
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
standardize the individual into group form/identity. Fear of happiness
may be a reflex (hot stove example).// There is unearned guilt to
consider, perhaps.// Was thinking that some write a three act plot of
life when five are possible- exit right. :-)
James
Jul 21, 2012, 10:21:56 PM7/21/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
And predators of every sort, it is hard to resist the urge to stand in
front like a wolverine at times. Some things turn the stomach, white
heat is one, but it pays to understand the flame.
front like a wolverine at times. Some things turn the stomach, white
heat is one, but it pays to understand the flame.
> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I know I am simple James, but what do you mean by
> morbid guilt?
> Allan
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:59 AM,
> James<ashkas...@gmail.com
>
> I know I am simple James, but what do you mean by
> morbid guilt?
> Allan
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:59 AM,
> James<ashkas...@gmail.com
James
Jul 21, 2012, 11:34:05 PM7/21/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I find the bildungsroman concept captivating, in my view a weaving
tapestry is befitting. There have been strong bourgeois influences in my
life but I think that spoils the plot, there is more to people than what
you can get out of them (cartoonish stereotypes). The real laughter
comes when you cannot laugh at the poor fool, the depth of thought
required and appreciation for our humanness compels a chuckle. And the
delayed gratification pays off, several chuckles later it sinks in that
the master was just getting started until a crescendo of absurdity roars
forth.
In real life it seems nobody else gets the joke so it is best to look
around at the gallery before bursting out at the hilarity. Are we the
butt of a private joke? :)
tapestry is befitting. There have been strong bourgeois influences in my
life but I think that spoils the plot, there is more to people than what
you can get out of them (cartoonish stereotypes). The real laughter
comes when you cannot laugh at the poor fool, the depth of thought
required and appreciation for our humanness compels a chuckle. And the
delayed gratification pays off, several chuckles later it sinks in that
the master was just getting started until a crescendo of absurdity roars
forth.
In real life it seems nobody else gets the joke so it is best to look
around at the gallery before bursting out at the hilarity. Are we the
butt of a private joke? :)
James
Jul 22, 2012, 3:44:56 AM7/22/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I was just reading the news, a rare occurrence, another reminder why..
Somewhere under contempt, anger, and shame is will, a couple leaps
further to hope, pride gets a bad treatment in the process but is
replaced with resolve. One matter stands out though. That is the role of
acceptance and how it can develop into affirmations, I think that comes
into the resolve stage.
Just a few of my reflections, I am certainly open to input.
Somewhere under contempt, anger, and shame is will, a couple leaps
further to hope, pride gets a bad treatment in the process but is
replaced with resolve. One matter stands out though. That is the role of
acceptance and how it can develop into affirmations, I think that comes
into the resolve stage.
Just a few of my reflections, I am certainly open to input.
Allan H
Jul 22, 2012, 5:30:06 AM7/22/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
just what is this rare occurrence in the news?
Allan
James
Jul 22, 2012, 11:48:09 AM7/22/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
My reading the news is rare. Was hoping for a little insight into my
little formula from a more seasoned warrior (hint hint), speaking of
which where is Molly (seems knowledgeable on these matters)?
> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>>
> <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com <mailto:allanh1...@gmail.com>>>
little formula from a more seasoned warrior (hint hint), speaking of
which where is Molly (seems knowledgeable on these matters)?
> wrote:
>
> Morbid would be an excessive preoccupation with and event or
> sin.. Finally
> started to figure it out..
>
> Yes I know of the excessive cost of people taking advantage
> of a program
> that can be for free. When I came into AA the rich mans
> programs were just
> starting.. I was to poor so they didn't want anything to do
> with me.. so I
> became sober the old fashion way, not drinking and going to
> meetings.. it
> will still work today but that is to cheap for the greedy
> medical
> community.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 3:38 PM, rigsy03<rigs...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>
>
> Morbid would be an excessive preoccupation with and event or
> sin.. Finally
> started to figure it out..
>
> Yes I know of the excessive cost of people taking advantage
> of a program
> that can be for free. When I came into AA the rich mans
> programs were just
> starting.. I was to poor so they didn't want anything to do
> with me.. so I
> became sober the old fashion way, not drinking and going to
> meetings.. it
> will still work today but that is to cheap for the greedy
> medical
> community.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 3:38 PM, rigsy03<rigs...@yahoo.com
> <mailto:rigs...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> I know I am simple James, but what do you mean by
> morbid guilt?
> Allan
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:59 AM,
> James<ashkas...@gmail.com <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>>
>
> I know I am simple James, but what do you mean by
> morbid guilt?
> Allan
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 5:59 AM,
> James<ashkas...@gmail.com <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>
rigsy03
Jul 23, 2012, 9:14:44 AM7/23/12
to "Minds Eye"
Some basic definitions might help. Happiness? Collective guilt? Impact
of a dysfunctional culture/family/educational system/ screwed-up
ideals, rewards, etc.
Also missing is the possible effect of even mild fetal alcohol
syndrome upon a fetus- which is a danger during the first weeks of
pregnancy. Shortened bonding of mother and child- maternal mortality,
depression, employment, etc. The many factors that fail to prepare a
child for an adult life. What is an adult life in a culture that
fosters perpetual infantilism/violence/ competition, etc.
The media hysterically bounces from one tragedy to another. I wonder
how a psychiatric nurse and software programmer (parents) missed the
signs of our most recent "movie theater killer" pushing Syria into
second or third blurb?
Too bad we are not in real contact. My youngest son is sending me 9
salmon. It's always something, isn't it?
On Jul 22, 2:44 am, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just reading the news, a rare occurrence, another reminder why..
> Somewhere under contempt, anger, and shame is will, a couple leaps
> further to hope, pride gets a bad treatment in the process but is
> replaced with resolve. One matter stands out though. That is the role of
> acceptance and how it can develop into affirmations, I think that comes
> into the resolve stage.
>
> Just a few of my reflections, I am certainly open to input.
>
> On 7/21/2012 10:21 PM, James wrote:
>
>
>
> > And predators of every sort, it is hard to resist the urge to stand in
> > front like a wolverine at times. Some things turn the stomach, white
> > heat is one, but it pays to understand the flame.
>
> > On 7/20/2012 2:22 AM, Allan H wrote:
> >> Personally I do take my personal responsibility very seriously,, but I
> >> am not preoccupied or at least I hope.. I do think there is a certain
> >> responsibility one has to keep vigilance and pull the fire alarm when
> >> there is a 'fire' unfortunately there are a lot of fires..
> >> Allan
>
of a dysfunctional culture/family/educational system/ screwed-up
ideals, rewards, etc.
Also missing is the possible effect of even mild fetal alcohol
syndrome upon a fetus- which is a danger during the first weeks of
pregnancy. Shortened bonding of mother and child- maternal mortality,
depression, employment, etc. The many factors that fail to prepare a
child for an adult life. What is an adult life in a culture that
fosters perpetual infantilism/violence/ competition, etc.
The media hysterically bounces from one tragedy to another. I wonder
how a psychiatric nurse and software programmer (parents) missed the
signs of our most recent "movie theater killer" pushing Syria into
second or third blurb?
Too bad we are not in real contact. My youngest son is sending me 9
salmon. It's always something, isn't it?
On Jul 22, 2:44 am, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was just reading the news, a rare occurrence, another reminder why..
> Somewhere under contempt, anger, and shame is will, a couple leaps
> further to hope, pride gets a bad treatment in the process but is
> replaced with resolve. One matter stands out though. That is the role of
> acceptance and how it can develop into affirmations, I think that comes
> into the resolve stage.
>
> Just a few of my reflections, I am certainly open to input.
>
> On 7/21/2012 10:21 PM, James wrote:
>
>
>
> > And predators of every sort, it is hard to resist the urge to stand in
> > front like a wolverine at times. Some things turn the stomach, white
> > heat is one, but it pays to understand the flame.
>
> > On 7/20/2012 2:22 AM, Allan H wrote:
> >> Personally I do take my personal responsibility very seriously,, but I
> >> am not preoccupied or at least I hope.. I do think there is a certain
> >> responsibility one has to keep vigilance and pull the fire alarm when
> >> there is a 'fire' unfortunately there are a lot of fires..
> >> Allan
>
gabbydott
Jul 24, 2012, 6:31:35 AM7/24/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
The Serenity Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer) comes to mind at this stage. This would also fit better our pink bubble warrior Molly, who needs to give advice to her friend. - Let's not forget the purpose of this thread, or, as Rigsy reminds us, the path salmons take or not take.
Molly
Jul 24, 2012, 7:26:51 AM7/24/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I am here, trying to figure out the new google format thrust upon me - appreciating the camaraderie of everyone here willing to mull over the notion of self forgiveness, thanks. I don't have much to add on the subject which is why I put it to the group for more detail. I tend to agree with Vam, when the view is clear, it doesn't come up much. But can, in our humanness. For me, it all boils down to grace including shame anger etc. Acceptance - or a perceived lack thereof assumes separation - an I not accepted by an other. With grace comes acceptance of all as One - the dissolution of shame, anger - the for-give-ness. Early childhood bonding would certainly seem like it could relieve a big burden, allowing children to set a pattern for emotional connection. But grace is mysterious. It comes to us without cause, instantaneously. Eureka. Shazaam. The eternal gift. I don't think we earn it. Simply open to it.
Molly
Jul 24, 2012, 8:18:36 AM7/24/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I spent the better part of my morning crafting a response here, and it seems to have disappeared. I noticed a post from gabby loading that also did not appear. Wonder what the deal is with the new google groups. Still haven't figured out how to see messages that need to be moderated. Sorry to leave you holding the bag Neil. Well, let's see if this will post.
gabbydott
Jul 24, 2012, 9:31:19 AM7/24/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
That's right, Molly, and it did not appear, because I discarded the drafted post. No mystery involved there. I was interested enough in the topic to reread it in its tree structure on the website (new groups setting) instead of the chronological view in my email client. And then I was too lazy to figure out who would receive the post/email and who would be able to read my post where. So I went back to my email client and posted from there. No shame, guilt, or anger involved on my side. Forgive me if I came across unclear on your side.
Molly
Jul 25, 2012, 7:32:09 AM7/25/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Interesting. It took almost a full day for my posts to show up on my screen. The new google groups. Hmmm. Still can't find where the moderation queue is found. Any suggestions, Neil?
On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:31:19 AM UTC-4, gabbydott wrote:
On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:31:19 AM UTC-4, gabbydott wrote:
That's right, Molly, and it did not appear, because I discarded the drafted post. No mystery involved there. I was interested enough in the topic to reread it in its tree structure on the website (new groups setting) instead of the chronological view in my email client. And then I was too lazy to figure out who would receive the post/email and who would be able to read my post where. So I went back to my email client and posted from there. No shame, guilt, or anger involved on my side. Forgive me if I came across unclear on your side.
rigsy03
Jul 25, 2012, 9:03:57 AM7/25/12
to "Minds Eye"
The salmon- wild Alaskan- have a fantastic life plan- truly beautiful.
Unlike humans or the various rationales devised in human eras/
societies, animals are really quite civilized. Hopefully the Pebbles
mine project (Frontline-PBS-7-24-12) will be rejected and denied a
permit so one of the last pure salmon runs can continue- but money/
greed/power has already proved itself throughout history. Why
generation after generation believes these "rationales" is beyond me-
what's worse, no one escapes contributing to the fraud of it all.
Anyway, have also seen the ragged end of the salmon's journey= bear
food. You have to net them before they enter the rivers- at their
peak.
On Jul 24, 5:31 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Serenity Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer) comes to
> mind at this stage. This would also fit better our pink bubble warrior
> Molly, who needs to give advice to her friend. - Let's not forget the
> purpose of this thread, or, as Rigsy reminds us, the path salmons take or
> not take.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 9:44 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was just reading the news, a rare occurrence, another reminder why..
> > Somewhere under contempt, anger, and shame is will, a couple leaps further
> > to hope, pride gets a bad treatment in the process but is replaced with
> > resolve. One matter stands out though. That is the role of acceptance and
> > how it can develop into affirmations, I think that comes into the resolve
> > stage.
>
> > Just a few of my reflections, I am certainly open to input.
>
> > On 7/21/2012 10:21 PM, James wrote:
>
> >> And predators of every sort, it is hard to resist the urge to stand in
> >> front like a wolverine at times. Some things turn the stomach, white
> >> heat is one, but it pays to understand the flame.
>
> >> On 7/20/2012 2:22 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
> >>> Personally I do take my personal responsibility very seriously,, but I
> >>> am not preoccupied or at least I hope.. I do think there is a certain
> >>> responsibility one has to keep vigilance and pull the fire alarm when
> >>> there is a 'fire' unfortunately there are a lot of fires..
> >>> Allan
>
Unlike humans or the various rationales devised in human eras/
societies, animals are really quite civilized. Hopefully the Pebbles
mine project (Frontline-PBS-7-24-12) will be rejected and denied a
permit so one of the last pure salmon runs can continue- but money/
greed/power has already proved itself throughout history. Why
generation after generation believes these "rationales" is beyond me-
what's worse, no one escapes contributing to the fraud of it all.
Anyway, have also seen the ragged end of the salmon's journey= bear
food. You have to net them before they enter the rivers- at their
peak.
On Jul 24, 5:31 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Serenity Prayer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer) comes to
> mind at this stage. This would also fit better our pink bubble warrior
> Molly, who needs to give advice to her friend. - Let's not forget the
> purpose of this thread, or, as Rigsy reminds us, the path salmons take or
> not take.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 22, 2012 at 9:44 AM, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was just reading the news, a rare occurrence, another reminder why..
> > Somewhere under contempt, anger, and shame is will, a couple leaps further
> > to hope, pride gets a bad treatment in the process but is replaced with
> > resolve. One matter stands out though. That is the role of acceptance and
> > how it can develop into affirmations, I think that comes into the resolve
> > stage.
>
> > Just a few of my reflections, I am certainly open to input.
>
> > On 7/21/2012 10:21 PM, James wrote:
>
> >> And predators of every sort, it is hard to resist the urge to stand in
> >> front like a wolverine at times. Some things turn the stomach, white
> >> heat is one, but it pays to understand the flame.
>
> >> On 7/20/2012 2:22 AM, Allan H wrote:
>
> >>> Personally I do take my personal responsibility very seriously,, but I
> >>> am not preoccupied or at least I hope.. I do think there is a certain
> >>> responsibility one has to keep vigilance and pull the fire alarm when
> >>> there is a 'fire' unfortunately there are a lot of fires..
> >>> Allan
>
RP Singh
Jul 25, 2012, 11:32:23 AM7/25/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
In order to forgive oneself one has to do either of these two---- find
excuses for one's misdeeds or to make amends. So , Molly , if your
friend is feeling guilty, ask her to make amends and she would feel
better. When Jesus was crucified he made excuses for those people , he
said ," God , forgive them for they know not what they do."
excuses for one's misdeeds or to make amends. So , Molly , if your
friend is feeling guilty, ask her to make amends and she would feel
better. When Jesus was crucified he made excuses for those people , he
said ," God , forgive them for they know not what they do."
Vam
Jul 25, 2012, 5:23:02 PM7/25/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Your post reeked of cynicism, to me. The flow > here, now is this > but it's always been > so, oh hell ... let me say something else.
The facts hardly permit any confusion or doubt, or despair in matters like these. Just like environment. Or, clear evidence of depletion of ice cover in Greenland.
There was a time salmons outnumbered our need. Then, it depleted, both by degraded environment and mindless poaching. Now, it's becoming scarce. It needs protection, sanctuaries and controlled harvesting. There is no doubt that if not done today, they'll get as rare as the whales and the dolphins.
But did the Japanese heed ? Will the Republicans, now preparing to block loans for renewal energy infrastructure ? We all know what is the right thing to do. And we all should be pressing hard on doing, saying and contemplating to the best we can. The cynicism is misplaced, no matter how old we are.
The bears have as much need and right to their morsels, perhaps more, than humans.
rigsy03
Jul 26, 2012, 9:36:51 AM7/26/12
to "Minds Eye"
The raccoons would enjoy this salmon also- should I dump it in the
nearby creek? Actually, I am giving at least half of this away to
family friends.
What do facts permit? One might want to define the "cynic" as a
disappointed idealist but I think an idealist should seek reality and
not some rosy-colored view. Philosophers, scientists and serious
authors and artist are often spurred by skepticism, aren't they? As
for politicians, what are they after- be honest. And as for the
theologians, paradise remains unproved.
It is not the mark of a gentleman to accuse a female of reeking, by
the way.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
nearby creek? Actually, I am giving at least half of this away to
family friends.
What do facts permit? One might want to define the "cynic" as a
disappointed idealist but I think an idealist should seek reality and
not some rosy-colored view. Philosophers, scientists and serious
authors and artist are often spurred by skepticism, aren't they? As
for politicians, what are they after- be honest. And as for the
theologians, paradise remains unproved.
It is not the mark of a gentleman to accuse a female of reeking, by
the way.
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
gabbydott
Jul 26, 2012, 12:32:10 PM7/26/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Don't trace him back to his Shere Khan nature, when he defines the facts for us, Rigsy! ;) < joke, Vam, this is meant to be classified as humour!
Allan H
Jul 26, 2012, 3:43:13 PM7/26/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
(",) :-P lol
Allan
Vam
Jul 26, 2012, 8:48:29 PM7/26/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
It's cool, Gabby ! I discarded the Buddha or ZenMaster model for myself long back.
Rigs, the term reek was for the post, not the person, if you overlooked.
Facts, in context, are sub-events summed up over time to yield a fairly complete view of the event or trend that is thence indisputable. Mostly they also yield clues to the causal forces at work.
I see no reason why I should see the politician in the lowest denomination, and accept their dishonest ways as the new " normal." Bill Moyers is right in pointing out their collusion with corporates, hereditary oligarchs and media, as the elite clique that set up their regime over a country and population, looped in for and amongst themselves, democracy or not. That clever remnant from millennium past, from that nature by which might is right, continues with accentuating iniquity and injustice which the law courts can never deal with. It's very much in my eye, without raising any ideology or -ism whatsoever. I am happy working at means to lend that awareness amongst those I connect with.
As to my own nature, occasionally hot or brusque, is dedicated to the world around and situations I am in. It works for me because I have no interest in the chips pile on the table !
Allan H
Jul 27, 2012, 1:37:11 AM7/27/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
We all have an interest in the chips piled on the table, if we didn't have this group for the most part would not exist.
In reality it is fun examining the world today in context of our own morality, philosophy then expressing them instead of just mumbling them to ourselves .
Allan
gabbydott
Jul 27, 2012, 5:58:23 AM7/27/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Memo to myself
Tag: Agency confusion
>Vam outed himself as the agent of the reeking, that’s the chip he threw on the table. He lost it to Lady Rigs. Then he increased the stake in the next round by postulating, that it was the post on the table that had reeking qualities, as this was the only factual evidence we all had to agree upon. - No gambling for chips anymore.
>Molly has not worked out yet how to be the agent of the un4given and therefore does not lay out her cards.
>Allan is a serious gamer.
Tag: Agency confusion
>Vam outed himself as the agent of the reeking, that’s the chip he threw on the table. He lost it to Lady Rigs. Then he increased the stake in the next round by postulating, that it was the post on the table that had reeking qualities, as this was the only factual evidence we all had to agree upon. - No gambling for chips anymore.
>Molly has not worked out yet how to be the agent of the un4given and therefore does not lay out her cards.
>Allan is a serious gamer.
Allan H
Jul 27, 2012, 7:12:09 AM7/27/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Gabby
new note serious gamer takes notes on everyone..
........ lol
Allan
rigsy03
Jul 27, 2012, 10:18:43 AM7/27/12
to "Minds Eye"
Okay. But posts reflect the poster. Then again, I have changed my mind
about so many issues, my history is inconsistent. It could be
development, however.
Settled facts can be disputed based on point of view.
Lacking an aristocracy, America has developed its own class structure-
generally based on money. Fluid- but then that's a common fate of rise
and fall. More can be discerned of character during the fall stage,
i.e. try to be graceful or manly or somesuch thing. Anyway,
politicians of all persuasions form part of the class system-
understandable, since we are all immigrants- nationality now
overshadowed by race and also gender.
I vote for conservatives or underdogs. Does it matter? Not really.
Lawyers love the tangle of it all- it's their livliehood to joust as
they are trained adversaries. Fine when they are yours- and win! :-)
Terrible mess to divorce an attorney.
Yes- I can see the "hot and brusque"- but no matter. Better passion
than a cold fish, I say.
On Jul 26, 7:48 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:.
about so many issues, my history is inconsistent. It could be
development, however.
Settled facts can be disputed based on point of view.
Lacking an aristocracy, America has developed its own class structure-
generally based on money. Fluid- but then that's a common fate of rise
and fall. More can be discerned of character during the fall stage,
i.e. try to be graceful or manly or somesuch thing. Anyway,
politicians of all persuasions form part of the class system-
understandable, since we are all immigrants- nationality now
overshadowed by race and also gender.
I vote for conservatives or underdogs. Does it matter? Not really.
Lawyers love the tangle of it all- it's their livliehood to joust as
they are trained adversaries. Fine when they are yours- and win! :-)
Terrible mess to divorce an attorney.
Yes- I can see the "hot and brusque"- but no matter. Better passion
than a cold fish, I say.
On Jul 26, 7:48 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:.
> It's cool, Gabby ! I discarded the Buddha or ZenMaster model for myself
> long back.
>
> Rigs, the term reek was for the post, not the person, if you overlooked.
>
> Facts, in context, are sub-events summed up over time to yield a fairly
> complete view of the event or trend that is thence indisputable. Mostly
> they also yield clues to the causal forces at work.
>
> I see no reason why I should see the politician in the lowest denomination,
> and accept their dishonest ways as the new " normal." Bill Moyers is right
> in pointing out their collusion with corporates, hereditary oligarchs and
> media, as the elite clique that set up their regime over a country and
> population, looped in for and amongst themselves, democracy or not. That
> clever remnant from millennium past, from that nature by which might is
> right, continues with accentuating iniquity and injustice which the law
> courts can never deal with. It's very much in my eye, without raising any
> ideology or -ism whatsoever. I am happy working at means to lend that
> awareness amongst those I connect with.
>
> As to my own nature, occasionally hot or brusque, is dedicated to the world
> around and situations I am in. It works for me because I have no interest
> in the chips pile on the table !
>
>
>
> On Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:02:10 PM UTC+5:30, gabbydott wrote:
>
> > Don't trace him back to his Shere Khan nature, when he defines the facts
> > for us, Rigsy! ;) < joke, Vam, this is meant to be classified as humour!
>
> long back.
>
> Rigs, the term reek was for the post, not the person, if you overlooked.
>
> Facts, in context, are sub-events summed up over time to yield a fairly
> complete view of the event or trend that is thence indisputable. Mostly
> they also yield clues to the causal forces at work.
>
> I see no reason why I should see the politician in the lowest denomination,
> and accept their dishonest ways as the new " normal." Bill Moyers is right
> in pointing out their collusion with corporates, hereditary oligarchs and
> media, as the elite clique that set up their regime over a country and
> population, looped in for and amongst themselves, democracy or not. That
> clever remnant from millennium past, from that nature by which might is
> right, continues with accentuating iniquity and injustice which the law
> courts can never deal with. It's very much in my eye, without raising any
> ideology or -ism whatsoever. I am happy working at means to lend that
> awareness amongst those I connect with.
>
> As to my own nature, occasionally hot or brusque, is dedicated to the world
> around and situations I am in. It works for me because I have no interest
> in the chips pile on the table !
>
>
>
> On Thursday, July 26, 2012 10:02:10 PM UTC+5:30, gabbydott wrote:
>
> > Don't trace him back to his Shere Khan nature, when he defines the facts
> > for us, Rigsy! ;) < joke, Vam, this is meant to be classified as humour!
>
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