Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
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frantheman
Oct 9, 2009, 5:18:35 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
So, the prize committee chooses Obama, less than a year after he has
begun to operate on the world stage, before many concrete results have
been seen.
Spontaneously, I see this as a gesture of thankfulness and hope;
thankfulness to the American people that they have elected a successor
to Bush, a man who did so much global damage, a successor who works
with different visions and ideal-structures, a more positive
fundamental view of what it means to be human and what societies
(local, national and global) can and should be doing and achieving.
Hope that he will realise some of this vision and trust that his
country and the world puts in him. The past few months have made me a
little concerned that the experts and lobbyists, advisors and
professional analysts are wearing him down with detail and
realpolitik.
Maybe this award will strengthen that "Yes, we can" impetus, in the
face of the everyday inertia of the thousand arguments of
complicatedness against changing anything, against daring to hope.
Francis
begun to operate on the world stage, before many concrete results have
been seen.
Spontaneously, I see this as a gesture of thankfulness and hope;
thankfulness to the American people that they have elected a successor
to Bush, a man who did so much global damage, a successor who works
with different visions and ideal-structures, a more positive
fundamental view of what it means to be human and what societies
(local, national and global) can and should be doing and achieving.
Hope that he will realise some of this vision and trust that his
country and the world puts in him. The past few months have made me a
little concerned that the experts and lobbyists, advisors and
professional analysts are wearing him down with detail and
realpolitik.
Maybe this award will strengthen that "Yes, we can" impetus, in the
face of the everyday inertia of the thousand arguments of
complicatedness against changing anything, against daring to hope.
Francis
archytas
Oct 9, 2009, 7:14:10 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
I tend to this view Francis - in hope. Frankly, I was think it is an
old, doomed strategy. I note there is no real vision of what a
peaceful world would be and how we would regulate through democracy,
plenty and so on.
old, doomed strategy. I note there is no real vision of what a
peaceful world would be and how we would regulate through democracy,
plenty and so on.
rigsy03
Oct 9, 2009, 7:31:35 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
Well, there's always the 2010 Oscars, as well!
> > Francis- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
ornamentalmind
Oct 9, 2009, 7:52:28 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
archy, there is one here in the US who is focused on peace. Of course,
he mostly receives attention to marginalize his world view.
Source of overview and specific links:
http://kucinich.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=1564
Personally I like Dennis a lot. In most ways he appears to be one
politician who hasn’t been tainted by power nor money.
he mostly receives attention to marginalize his world view.
Source of overview and specific links:
http://kucinich.house.gov/issues/issue/?IssueID=1564
Personally I like Dennis a lot. In most ways he appears to be one
politician who hasn’t been tainted by power nor money.
iam deheretic
Oct 9, 2009, 8:27:14 AM10/9/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
orn that is an interesting thought..
Allan--
(
)
I_D Allan
Allan
(
)
I_D Allan
Don Johnson
Oct 9, 2009, 8:27:47 AM10/9/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Picked with a two week resume, he joins the Nobel club with such
luminaries as Jimmy Carter and Yassir Arafat. How fitting. Dividends
from the World Apology Tour '09.
Time to expand on that Ignobel list Archy.
dj
luminaries as Jimmy Carter and Yassir Arafat. How fitting. Dividends
from the World Apology Tour '09.
Time to expand on that Ignobel list Archy.
dj
Slip Disc
Oct 9, 2009, 9:01:18 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
Considering the quagmire of obstacles that have been dumped in his
lap, the underlying adversity in his election with a wavering voting
mass, I think Obama has made great strides and hopefully he will see
much of his vision come to fruition. BravObama!
lap, the underlying adversity in his election with a wavering voting
mass, I think Obama has made great strides and hopefully he will see
much of his vision come to fruition. BravObama!
Molly Brogan
Oct 9, 2009, 9:04:54 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
I also, would like to hear that articulated in the global leadership.
Vam
Oct 9, 2009, 9:41:45 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
I feel that it is too early to assess Barack Obama's commitment at
work, much less conclude and award him for that !
Early ( and hence undeserved ) recognition is a widely known recipe to
' burn out.' Those who start being and doing better are blessed, but
rare.
work, much less conclude and award him for that !
Early ( and hence undeserved ) recognition is a widely known recipe to
' burn out.' Those who start being and doing better are blessed, but
rare.
gabbydott
Oct 9, 2009, 9:42:37 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
Thank you, Slip! Let me subscribe to the synthesis of your analysis.
On 9 Okt., 15:01, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Considering the quagmire of obstacles that have been dumped in his
> lap, the underlying adversity in his election with a wavering voting
> mass, I think Obama has made great strides and hopefully he will see
> much of his vision come to fruition. BravObama!
>
>
>
On Oct 9, 4:18 am, franan <franciancis.h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > So, the prize committee chooses Obama, less than a year after he has
> > begun to operate on the world stage, before many concrete results have
> > been seen.
>
> > Spontaneously, I see this as a gesture of thankfulness and hope;
> > thankfulness to the American people that they have elected a successor
> > to Bush, a man who did so much global damage, a successor who works
> > with different visions and ideal-structures, a more positive
> > fundamental view of what it means to be human and what societies
> > (local, national and global) can and should be doing and achieving.
>
> > Hope that he will realise some of this vision and trust that his
> > country and the world puts in him. The past few months have made me a
> > little concerned that the experts and lobbyists, advisors and
> > prsional aal analysts are wearing him down with detail and
>
> > Francis
On 9 Okt., 15:01, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Considering the quagmire of obstacles that have been dumped in his
> lap, the underlying adversity in his election with a wavering voting
> mass, I think Obama has made great strides and hopefully he will see
> much of his vision come to fruition. BravObama!
>
>
>
On Oct 9, 4:18 am, franan <franciancis.h...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > So, the prize committee chooses Obama, less than a year after he has
> > begun to operate on the world stage, before many concrete results have
> > been seen.
>
> > Spontaneously, I see this as a gesture of thankfulness and hope;
> > thankfulness to the American people that they have elected a successor
> > to Bush, a man who did so much global damage, a successor who works
> > with different visions and ideal-structures, a more positive
> > fundamental view of what it means to be human and what societies
> > (local, national and global) can and should be doing and achieving.
>
> > Hope that he will realise some of this vision and trust that his
> > country and the world puts in him. The past few months have made me a
> > little concerned that the experts and lobbyists, advisors and
> > realpolitik.
>
> > Maybe this award will strengthen that "Yes, we can" impetus, in the
> > face of the everyday inertia of the thousand arguments of
> > complicatedness against cing anything, ag, against daring to hope.
>
> > Maybe this award will strengthen that "Yes, we can" impetus, in the
> > face of the everyday inertia of the thousand arguments of
>
> > Francis
ornamentalmind
Oct 9, 2009, 9:56:58 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
“Picked with a two week resume,…” – DJ
I see more like over 15 years. Most of us more mature people do limit
resumes to a decade or so.
http://cdn.theladders.net/static/pdf/Senator_Obama_Resume.pdf
I see more like over 15 years. Most of us more mature people do limit
resumes to a decade or so.
http://cdn.theladders.net/static/pdf/Senator_Obama_Resume.pdf
archytas
Oct 9, 2009, 9:58:57 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
Thanks for information about Dennis Orn - one has to hope some can
survive our jungle. I want to believe in Obama, but frankly don't.
It's so difficult to imagine anyone can survive our political party
systems (anywhere) and remain an OK person. Our own MP and
councillors are pathetic in a way Obama is not - the corruption is at
very low levels. It might be interesting to poll on whether any of us
really do know any politicians like 'Orn's Dennis'. I was in a
relationship with a government minister some years back (argh! my
future is all behind me!), having known her as a political activist
years before (I was on the 'other side' then despite my leftie
leanings). I had really liked her and we almost married. She turned
out to be utterly useless other than in feathering her own nest once
she was on the inside track, all the democratic politics forgotten
(was it ever real?) - and I still quake at my own deception. We met
fairly recently as she did talk about the old days and how the
'corruption' got to her. This wasn't much different from what some
old cops say about being on the inside of things and it being disloyal
to make them public. It was a difficult meeting as I still tend to
see her as I did then and it's rather swooning. I've never felt she
was just an opportunist, but even the union road is littered with
turncoats. We held hands and laughed at some documentary footage of
the enemy (here the Conservative Party) doing much the kind of local
case work with crime and domestic violence victims she used to get me
into - the laughs being about the 180 degree turn in who was doing
this. There were some tears about where the compassion went, some
talk of means to ends and being convinced everything was too
complicated once you had to do deals.
I've just turned down a job in Iran (partly because I'm not fit to
cope but also because I can't see me doing any good and some fears on
personal safety). I think answers might lie in international project
collaborations - on farming, construction, education, policing -
because 'ordinary' people are the only answer. Here, I think (say)
that Vam and I swapping 'duties' and countries with our families could
do more good than the 'Noble' stuff, if enough of us could do it and
there must be some virtual way into this on a large scale. I suppose,
simplified to the extreme, I think we could change leadership by being
able to ignore it. Vam and I could swap without fear of the English
Defence League or its Indian equivalent - but there are parts of the
world this is not true of. Withering away this kind of idiocy (which
is not just abject racism) would also wither away the need for that
part of the State that 'protects' us from it.
The Ignobles have become all-too-Noble these days Don. We'd have to
refuse one! Changeri was in the frame for the Nobel (Zimbabwe) and we
don't really know if he is just a Mugabe in waiting. Kissinger got it
for ending a war that was still going on he had expanded into other
countries. Maybe Obama shouldn't have been humbled and insisted he is
too worthy to accept?
survive our jungle. I want to believe in Obama, but frankly don't.
It's so difficult to imagine anyone can survive our political party
systems (anywhere) and remain an OK person. Our own MP and
councillors are pathetic in a way Obama is not - the corruption is at
very low levels. It might be interesting to poll on whether any of us
really do know any politicians like 'Orn's Dennis'. I was in a
relationship with a government minister some years back (argh! my
future is all behind me!), having known her as a political activist
years before (I was on the 'other side' then despite my leftie
leanings). I had really liked her and we almost married. She turned
out to be utterly useless other than in feathering her own nest once
she was on the inside track, all the democratic politics forgotten
(was it ever real?) - and I still quake at my own deception. We met
fairly recently as she did talk about the old days and how the
'corruption' got to her. This wasn't much different from what some
old cops say about being on the inside of things and it being disloyal
to make them public. It was a difficult meeting as I still tend to
see her as I did then and it's rather swooning. I've never felt she
was just an opportunist, but even the union road is littered with
turncoats. We held hands and laughed at some documentary footage of
the enemy (here the Conservative Party) doing much the kind of local
case work with crime and domestic violence victims she used to get me
into - the laughs being about the 180 degree turn in who was doing
this. There were some tears about where the compassion went, some
talk of means to ends and being convinced everything was too
complicated once you had to do deals.
I've just turned down a job in Iran (partly because I'm not fit to
cope but also because I can't see me doing any good and some fears on
personal safety). I think answers might lie in international project
collaborations - on farming, construction, education, policing -
because 'ordinary' people are the only answer. Here, I think (say)
that Vam and I swapping 'duties' and countries with our families could
do more good than the 'Noble' stuff, if enough of us could do it and
there must be some virtual way into this on a large scale. I suppose,
simplified to the extreme, I think we could change leadership by being
able to ignore it. Vam and I could swap without fear of the English
Defence League or its Indian equivalent - but there are parts of the
world this is not true of. Withering away this kind of idiocy (which
is not just abject racism) would also wither away the need for that
part of the State that 'protects' us from it.
The Ignobles have become all-too-Noble these days Don. We'd have to
refuse one! Changeri was in the frame for the Nobel (Zimbabwe) and we
don't really know if he is just a Mugabe in waiting. Kissinger got it
for ending a war that was still going on he had expanded into other
countries. Maybe Obama shouldn't have been humbled and insisted he is
too worthy to accept?
Slip Disc
Oct 9, 2009, 10:19:40 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
It seems rather obvious as to the heap of garbage left behind the Bush
parade of debacles but people for some odd reason are leaning towards
a narrow margin of assessment and criticism without review and
inclusion of the past ten years. I think if Obama would have
succeeded the Clinton era, thereby eliminating Butcher Bush, things
would be a lot better today. I don't think Obama would have initially
given away all the surplus funds, trenched out a false war nor
attended to any, of the many, mistakes of the past administration.
It's too late now, all we can do is look to the future and hope for
the best, that is for our great grandchildren should they finally pay
off the mountain of debt. The way things are going, I'm anticipating
that soon I'll be using Chinese currency.
parade of debacles but people for some odd reason are leaning towards
a narrow margin of assessment and criticism without review and
inclusion of the past ten years. I think if Obama would have
succeeded the Clinton era, thereby eliminating Butcher Bush, things
would be a lot better today. I don't think Obama would have initially
given away all the surplus funds, trenched out a false war nor
attended to any, of the many, mistakes of the past administration.
It's too late now, all we can do is look to the future and hope for
the best, that is for our great grandchildren should they finally pay
off the mountain of debt. The way things are going, I'm anticipating
that soon I'll be using Chinese currency.
gabbydott
Oct 9, 2009, 11:11:42 AM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
Na, if you are going the would-have way, you might as well had joined
the should-haves beforehand and look smarter now.
the should-haves beforehand and look smarter now.
gwilli...@aol.com
Oct 9, 2009, 12:07:50 PM10/9/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Every so often the right man converges with the right time and result in a true statesman.
We may be looking at the emergence of such a rare leader. Let's hope so.
archytas
Oct 9, 2009, 12:28:16 PM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
The Remnimbi is highly over-valued and will be in trouble if the USD
tumbles. I have a Yen for Swiss Francs It has struck me that Obama
is at least saying some of the right things, making him 98% better
than Bushboy. What we don't seem to be able to do is get behind him,
cynicism aside. He can at least say peace be with you in a language
other than Anglot. I hope he gives the cash away to an Iraqi family
and shares the prize otherwise with staff from Medicine Sans
Frontiers.
On 9 Oct, 17:07, gwilliamsn...@aol.com wrote:
> Every so often the right man converges with the right time and result in a true statesman.
>
> We may be looking at the emergence of such a rare leader. Let's hope so.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Molly Brogan <mollybro...@gmail.com>
> To: "Minds Eye" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Fri, Oct 9, 2009 9:04 am
> Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
>
> I also, would like to hear that articulated in the global leadership.
>
> On Oct 9, 7:14?am, archytas <nwte...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > I tend to this view Francis - in hope. ?Frankly, I was think it is an
> > old, doomed strategy. ?I note there is no real vision of what a
tumbles. I have a Yen for Swiss Francs It has struck me that Obama
is at least saying some of the right things, making him 98% better
than Bushboy. What we don't seem to be able to do is get behind him,
cynicism aside. He can at least say peace be with you in a language
other than Anglot. I hope he gives the cash away to an Iraqi family
and shares the prize otherwise with staff from Medicine Sans
Frontiers.
On 9 Oct, 17:07, gwilliamsn...@aol.com wrote:
> Every so often the right man converges with the right time and result in a true statesman.
>
> We may be looking at the emergence of such a rare leader. Let's hope so.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Molly Brogan <mollybro...@gmail.com>
> To: "Minds Eye" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Fri, Oct 9, 2009 9:04 am
> Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
>
> I also, would like to hear that articulated in the global leadership.
>
> > I tend to this view Francis - in hope. ?Frankly, I was think it is an
> > old, doomed strategy. ?I note there is no real vision of what a
jimmy sayers
Oct 9, 2009, 2:39:32 PM10/9/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 12:07:50 -0400
From: gwilli...@aol.com
From: gwilli...@aol.com
ornamentalmind
Oct 9, 2009, 5:56:03 PM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
…welcome Neil.
And, yes, love is blind in many ways. I don’t doubt that almost to a
person we each have similar stories. I know I do. I am quite lucky
that my wife of over 3 decades still embraces Emma Goldman and votes
3rd party members! :-)
And, yes, love is blind in many ways. I don’t doubt that almost to a
person we each have similar stories. I know I do. I am quite lucky
that my wife of over 3 decades still embraces Emma Goldman and votes
3rd party members! :-)
archytas
Oct 9, 2009, 8:54:43 PM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
If nothing else we've had the pleasure of the US right attempting to
pass this off as a European insult aimed at them. If only they knew
how impossible it is for Europe to agree on anything, and still less
its left (in power where? - discounting the lame-duck CIA Blair
coalition in the UK), they'd have invaded by sending a couple of
platoons of marines on holiday. Most Brits would vote Republican as
long as the Queen was kept as head of state (or one of her corgis) -
some of us might even join the outfit to stop it being so mamby-pamby
on drinking policy in the Navy - what no rum ration! Let's face it
we're so broke over here we'd do anything for a bit of bush. You even
have a more acceptable (not much) national anthem. Now's the time
guys - the Square Heads are holding hands again and getting very nasty
when we throw them off sun-loungers in Ibiza. Send a tank over to the
White House, claim some pregnant chads and declare Britain the 51st
State. Put up that guy McCain again - we'll vote in droves - he makes
all the chips ...
pass this off as a European insult aimed at them. If only they knew
how impossible it is for Europe to agree on anything, and still less
its left (in power where? - discounting the lame-duck CIA Blair
coalition in the UK), they'd have invaded by sending a couple of
platoons of marines on holiday. Most Brits would vote Republican as
long as the Queen was kept as head of state (or one of her corgis) -
some of us might even join the outfit to stop it being so mamby-pamby
on drinking policy in the Navy - what no rum ration! Let's face it
we're so broke over here we'd do anything for a bit of bush. You even
have a more acceptable (not much) national anthem. Now's the time
guys - the Square Heads are holding hands again and getting very nasty
when we throw them off sun-loungers in Ibiza. Send a tank over to the
White House, claim some pregnant chads and declare Britain the 51st
State. Put up that guy McCain again - we'll vote in droves - he makes
all the chips ...
ornamentalmind
Oct 9, 2009, 10:04:42 PM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
I remember John!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg
archytas
Oct 9, 2009, 10:11:38 PM10/9/09
to "Minds Eye"
What a guy. An honoury member of the English Defence League if I ever
saw one not wearing sheets!
saw one not wearing sheets!
iam deheretic
Oct 10, 2009, 4:13:52 AM10/10/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Just to show how far out of touch I am, I didn't realized that President Obama was awarded the peace prize, I just thought they were nominating people for it. When I realize it is true , I would like to congratulate him and the Nobel committee. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for peace and what is right.
It took a lot of courage for the Nobel committee to take a stand in the present and say we are standing for peace to day, and we are using the prestige of the Nobel Peace Prize to bring about peace now,, not just recognising the efforts of the past.
My congratulation to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee for taking a stand for peace today.
Allan
It took a lot of courage for the Nobel committee to take a stand in the present and say we are standing for peace to day, and we are using the prestige of the Nobel Peace Prize to bring about peace now,, not just recognising the efforts of the past.
My congratulation to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee for taking a stand for peace today.
Allan
archytas
Oct 10, 2009, 3:25:12 PM10/10/09
to "Minds Eye"
If that's what it is what can we do to help? They've awarded some
turkeys before. I'm always struck we can mobilise total war and never
total peace.
turkeys before. I'm always struck we can mobilise total war and never
total peace.
gruff
Oct 10, 2009, 4:34:24 PM10/10/09
to "Minds Eye"
The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded annually "to the person who shall
have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations,
for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding
and promotion of peace congresses."
I have to ask, Mr. Johnson, why do you only highlight what are even
questionable undeserving recipients? Why do you point up only the
negative? Is it your purpose to defeat anything good? At times your
writing sounds like it?
But that's all right. I'll counterbalance.
Among the more notable winners in the 114 years history of the Nobel
prize are the following:
Theodore Roosevelt
Louis Renault
Woodrow Wilson
Frank B. Kellogg
Jane Addams
(Not so ironically, the committee awarded no peace prize in 1939,
1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943. The award in 1944 was given to the
International Red Cross.)
Cordell Hull
Albert Schweitzer
Dag Hammarskjöld
Linus Carl Pauling
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Henry A. Kissinger
Lê Ðuc Tho (refused award)
Mohamed Anwar Al-Sadat
Menachem Begin
Mother Teresa
Lech Wałęsa
Desmond Mpilo Tutu
The 14th Dalai Lama
Desmond Mpilo Tutu
Nelson Mandela
Frederik Willem de Klerk
Yitzhak Rabin
Shimon Peres
Jody Williams
Kofi Annan
Shirin Ebadi
Mohamed ElBaradei
Al Gore
According to the Nobel committee Barack Obama Was awarded the Peace
prize "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international
diplomacy and cooperation between peoples." No one can deny his
efforts and he may win it again for his future successes in this
goal.
It is my hope and belief that he will achieve these goals.
have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations,
for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding
and promotion of peace congresses."
I have to ask, Mr. Johnson, why do you only highlight what are even
questionable undeserving recipients? Why do you point up only the
negative? Is it your purpose to defeat anything good? At times your
writing sounds like it?
But that's all right. I'll counterbalance.
Among the more notable winners in the 114 years history of the Nobel
prize are the following:
Theodore Roosevelt
Louis Renault
Woodrow Wilson
Frank B. Kellogg
Jane Addams
(Not so ironically, the committee awarded no peace prize in 1939,
1940, 1941, 1942 and 1943. The award in 1944 was given to the
International Red Cross.)
Cordell Hull
Albert Schweitzer
Dag Hammarskjöld
Linus Carl Pauling
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Henry A. Kissinger
Lê Ðuc Tho (refused award)
Mohamed Anwar Al-Sadat
Menachem Begin
Mother Teresa
Lech Wałęsa
Desmond Mpilo Tutu
The 14th Dalai Lama
Desmond Mpilo Tutu
Nelson Mandela
Frederik Willem de Klerk
Yitzhak Rabin
Shimon Peres
Jody Williams
Kofi Annan
Shirin Ebadi
Mohamed ElBaradei
Al Gore
According to the Nobel committee Barack Obama Was awarded the Peace
prize "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international
diplomacy and cooperation between peoples." No one can deny his
efforts and he may win it again for his future successes in this
goal.
It is my hope and belief that he will achieve these goals.
iam deheretic
Oct 10, 2009, 5:09:22 PM10/10/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
he has my support and prayers
Allan
Allan
archytas
Oct 10, 2009, 10:34:09 PM10/10/09
to "Minds Eye"
The problem with Gruff's list is that most of the figures don't
survive 'revisionist' history, though one of us would. Even Albert
Schweitzer (Sartre was his nephew) turns out not quite as advertised
on the tin and some of Woodrow Wilson's speeches in Congress are
pretty scary. Politics has pretty broadly let us down and can seem to
have changed not at all on reading Aristotle or Machiavelli. I don't
know what my list of 'vestigial virgins' on peace would be. The point
might be how we can be positive without succumbing to ideology - this
is all-too-difficult.
survive 'revisionist' history, though one of us would. Even Albert
Schweitzer (Sartre was his nephew) turns out not quite as advertised
on the tin and some of Woodrow Wilson's speeches in Congress are
pretty scary. Politics has pretty broadly let us down and can seem to
have changed not at all on reading Aristotle or Machiavelli. I don't
know what my list of 'vestigial virgins' on peace would be. The point
might be how we can be positive without succumbing to ideology - this
is all-too-difficult.
gwilli...@aol.com
Oct 11, 2009, 1:13:47 AM10/11/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins With the First Step
|
The majority of those opposed to Obama winning the award are not anti Obama so much as they question the selection committees' timing. Premature is the word most associated with those who question the judges' judgment. Clearly it depends on one's perspective as to how the process that potentially results in peace comes about.
Between any noble idea and its realization is a continuum of incremental steps. The idea of peace is a universal goal for most people who share the common ethic of live and let live. Doesn't everyone share that ethic? Of course we know that the answer to this question is a resounding no. Unfortunately for man and woman kind there have always been and perhaps will always be those twisted, brutish, bullies who know how to grab power and sustain it - often by declaring war on a projected enemy. These so called 'leaders' appear to be clones of each other - karmically joined at their political hips - schooled in the same university - majoring in the same courses in sadistic rule by fear and intimidation - always knowing who to choose to fill the ranks of their legions of henchmen who apparently love to make war as if it was a blood sport - ... And once unleashed war begets war and the cycle of revenge sweeps everyone near the circle of destruction into its orbit until both sides eventually get exhausted or one side prevails and peace breaks out - for a while - until the cycle starts up once again - And in the middle of this collective insanity are the innocent who are always too ill, or too poor, or too untrained to be able to adequately protect themselves. These people are the legions of displaced, starved, tented, pushed around, the fodder for all sorts of unspeakable crimes against humanity - who when beaten down enough - completely lose their spirit and sink into apathy, helplessness and hopelessness. But they do have one potential weapon which if realized could inevitably run the oppressors out of town so to speak.... This weapon is their potential unity of purpose - their collective yearning for peace. But to get them to the point where they will collectively rise up and be heard making their power felt - their spirit has to be re-ignited... They have to be inspired - they have to experience hope... Segue to Obama - Every so often in world history there is a voice that resonates with the majority of peace loving human beings setting fire to their lost spark of hope - Once re - lit this spark has a way of creating mass movements. President Obama has that voice - and is using it effectively. In only nine months he has managed to undo the great damage done by our last bush-league administration - breathing fresh air into a poisonous atmosphere - talking real talk: direct - candid - frank - honest - truthful talk - that is igniting the spirit of multitudes of the worlds' most oppressed people. The President himself understands all too well that this prize is a call for futher dedication along the road to peace of which he has made a spectacular beginning. In his campaigne he indicated that if elected he would set to do nothing less than help to change the world - In my opinion he is on course to doing exactly what he said he wanted to do. In my opinion, the choice for the peace prize at this particualr time could not have gone to a more deserving recipient. |
-----Original Message-----
From: iam deheretic <dehe...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Oct 10, 2009 5:09 pm
Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize
he has my support and prayers
Allan
Allan
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:34 PM, gruff <trad...@gmail.com> wrote:
The Nobel Peace Prize is awarded annually20"to the person who shall
diplomacy and cooperation bet ween peoples." No one can deny his
efforts and he may win it again for his future successes in this
goal.
It is my hope and belief that he will achieve these goals.
On Oct 9, 5:27 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Picked with a two week resume, he joins the Nobel club with such
> luminaries as Jimmy Carter and Yassir Arafat. How fitting. Dividends
> from the World Apology Tour '09.
>
> Time to expand on that Ignobel list Archy.
>
> dj
iam deheretic
Oct 11, 2009, 3:43:54 AM10/11/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I know the majority oppose the award given to President Obama, The Nobel Peace Prize was created to promote peace. It is doing just what Alfred Nobel intended it to do .
As for those that oppose President Obama getting it,, in the USA if I remember right the majority supported the war in Iraq. Me I marched in the peace demonstrations doing every thing I could to try and avoid the private Bush war.
Allan
As for those that oppose President Obama getting it,, in the USA if I remember right the majority supported the war in Iraq. Me I marched in the peace demonstrations doing every thing I could to try and avoid the private Bush war.
Allan
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 7:13 AM, <gwilli...@aol.com> wrote:
A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins With the First Step
Between any noble idea and its realization is a continuum of incremental steps.
The idea of peace is a universal goal for most people who share the common ethic of live and let live. Doesn't everyone share that ethic? Of course we know that the answer to this question is a resounding no.
archytas
Oct 11, 2009, 4:16:32 AM10/11/09
to "Minds Eye"
My guess is that after centuries of leaders bring war and devastation
we should stop expecting any of them to bring peace.
On 11 Oct, 08:43, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know the majority oppose the award given to President Obama, The Nobel
> Peace Prize was created to promote peace. It is doing just what Alfred Nobel
> intended it to do .
>
> As for those that oppose President Obama getting it,, in the USA if I
> remember right the majority supported the war in Iraq. Me I marched in the
> peace demonstrations doing every thing I could to try and avoid the private
> Bush war.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 7:13 AM, <gwilliamsn...@aol.com> wrote:
> > * A* *Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins
> > With the First Step*
> > **
we should stop expecting any of them to bring peace.
On 11 Oct, 08:43, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know the majority oppose the award given to President Obama, The Nobel
> Peace Prize was created to promote peace. It is doing just what Alfred Nobel
> intended it to do .
>
> As for those that oppose President Obama getting it,, in the USA if I
> remember right the majority supported the war in Iraq. Me I marched in the
> peace demonstrations doing every thing I could to try and avoid the private
> Bush war.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> > * A* *Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins
> > With the First Step*
> > **
iam deheretic
Oct 11, 2009, 4:28:41 AM10/11/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 10:16 AM, archytas <nwt...@googlemail.com> wrote:
My guess is that after centuries of leaders bring war and devastation
we should stop expecting any of them to bring peace.
It sure seems that way doesn't it.
Allan
Allan
iam deheretic
Oct 11, 2009, 4:45:56 AM10/11/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I was digging around when I came across this comment I thought was worth sharing
Allan
Allan
I’m italian and in this time in italy we haven’t
nothing to be happy, but i’m so happy, very happy.
happy to live in
the same time of yours president Obama
because the president is” a man who love the world:
always for love not to own it”.
lorella
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 10:16 AM, archytas <nwt...@googlemail.com> wrote:
ornamentalmind
Oct 11, 2009, 8:15:44 AM10/11/09
to "Minds Eye"
PEACE:
“They who have put out the people’s eyes reproach them of their
blindness.” - John Milton, 1642.
The Third Reich was very effective in many ways. I think we have much
to learn from their rhetoric which, when analyzed, can be quite
instructive. Much of it points directly to the methodology used
globally ever since. Without an understanding of how leaders
manufacture consent, we are doomed to repeating the human frailty of
susceptibility to nationalistic appetites and we will never have the
clarity of mind, emotion and will to be able to demand the peace which
is our absolute right. – OM
From a conversation with Herman Goering (a German politician, military
leader and a leading member of the Nazi Party) in his cell at the
Nuremberg trials 4/18/1946 found in ‘Nurenberg Diary’, a book by
Gustave Gilbert who was an intelligence officer and psychologist
granted free access by the Allies to all prisoners held in the
Nurenberg jail:
====== www.snopes.com =====
“Why, of course, the people don’t want war,” Goering shrugged “Why
would some poor slob on a farm risk his life in a war when the best he
can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally,
the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor
in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But,
after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy
and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it
is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a
Communist dictatorship.”
“There is one difference,” I [Gilbert] pointed out. “In a democracy
the people have some say in the matter through their elected
representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare
wars.”
[Goering] “Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the
people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is
easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country
to danger. It works the same way in any country.”
======
JOSEPH GOEBBELS - a German politician and Reichsminister of Propaganda
in Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945.
"...the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine.
Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and
repetitious. The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no
success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind
constantly...it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them
over and over." – Joseph Goebbels
“During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than
information." – Joseph Goebbels
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent,
for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension,
the truth is the greatest enemy of the State." – Joseph Goebbels
“Whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state, for
every form of power politics and any dictatorship-run state has its
roots in the street.” – Joseph Goebbels
"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of
public opinion." – Joseph Goebbels
=====
Quotes from the movie “Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the
Media” www.IMDB.Com
Noam Chomsky: The point is that in a military state or a feudal state,
or what you would nowadays call a totalitarian state, it doesn't much
matter what people think, because you've got a legend over there that
you can control what they do. But when the state looses legend, and
you can't control people by force. And when the voice of the people
can be heard you have this problem, it may make people so curious and
so arrogant that they don't have the humility to submit to a civil
rule. And therefore you have to control what people think.
Noam Chomsky: Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked.
So was Stalin. If you're really in favor of free speech, then you're
in favor of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise.
Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech.
Noam Chomsky: There's maybe twenty percent of the population that is
relatively educated, more or less articulate, that play some kind of
role in decision making. They're supposed to participate in social
life either as managers, or cultural managers, like say, teachers,
writers and so on. They're supposed to vote. They're supposed to play
some role in the way economic, political and cultural life goes on.
Now they're consent is crucial. It's one group that has to be deeply
indoctrinated. Then there's maybe eighty percent of the population
whose main function is to follow orders and not to think.
Noam Chomsky: When the state looses the bludgeon... you have to
control what people think. And the standard way to do this is to
resort to what in more honest days used to be called propaganda.
Noam Chomsky: There's nothing more remote from what we have been
discussing than a conspiracy theory. If I give an analysis of, say the
economic system, and I point out that GM tries to maximize profit and
market share - that's not a conspiracy theory; that's an institutional
analysis. It has nothing to do with conspiracies. That's precisely the
sense in which we've been talking about the media. The phrase
"conspiracy theory" is one of those that's constantly brought up, and
I think it's effect simply is to discourage institutional analysis.
Noam Chomsky: Suppose I get on "Nightline". I'm given two minutes and
I say Quaddafi is a terrorist or Khomeini is a murderer... I don't
need any evidence, everybody just nods. On the other hand, suppose you
say something that just isn't regurgitating conventional pieties...
Suppose you say "The biggest international terror operations that are
known are the ones that are run out of Washington", or suppose, you
say "What happened in the 1980s is the US government was driven
underground", suppose I say "The US is invading South Vietnam," as it
was, or "The best political leaders are the ones that are lazy and
corrupt", "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war
american president would have been hanged.", "The Bible is one of the
most genocidal books in the total canon.", "Education is a system of
imposed ignorance", "There is no more morality in world affairs,
fundamentally, then there was at the time of Genghis Khan..." People
will, quite reasonably, expect to know what you mean. Why did you say
that ?... You'd better have a lot of evidence... But you can't give
evidence if you're stuck with concision. That's the genius of this
structural contraint. And in my view, people from Nightline and so on,
if they were smarter, if they were better propagandists, they would
let dissidents on, let them on more in fact. The reason is, that they
would sound like they're from Neptune.
Noam Chomsky: What sems to me a - in a sense - very terrifying aspect
of our society, and of other societies, is the equanimity and the
detachment with which sane, reasonable, sensible people can observe
such events. I think that's more terrifying than the occasional Hitler
or LeMay or other that crops up. These people would not be able to
operate were it not for this apathy and equanimity. And therefore I
think that it's in some sense the sane and reasonable and tolerant
people who share a very serious burden of guilt, which they very
easily throw on the shoulders of others who seem more extreme or more
violent.
Noam Chomsky: It means you have to develop an independent mind, and
work on it. Now that's extremely hard to do alone. The beauty of our
system is that is isolates everything. Each person is sitting alone in
front of the tube, you know. It's very hard to have ideas and thoughts
under the circumstances. You can't fight the world alone. Some people
can but it's pretty rare. The way to do it is with organization. So of
course there's an intellectual self defence, will have to be in the
context of political and other organization.
Noam Chomsky: Modern industrial civilization has developed within a
certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern
industrial civilization has been individual material gain... Now it's
long been understood - very well - that a society that is based on
this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist - with
whatever suffering and injustice it entails - as long as it's possible
to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited,
that the world is an infinite resource, and that the world is an
infinite garbage can. At this stage of history either... the general
population will take control of its own destiny and will concern
itself with community issues guided by values of solidarity, and
sympathy, and concern for others, or - alternatively - there will be
no destiny for anyone to control.
Noam Chomsky: The way things change is because lots of people are
working all the time. They're working in their communities, at their
workplace, or wherever they happen to be, and they are building up the
basis for popular movements which are going to make changes. That's
the way everything has ever happened in history, whether it was the
end of slavery or the democratic revolution, anything you want, you
name it, that's the way it worked. You get a very false picture of
this from the history books. In the history books there's a couple of
leaders...
question from the audience: Refering back to your earlier comment
about escaping from or doing away with capitalism - I was wondering
which workable scheme you would put in its place?
Noam Chomsky: Me?
[laughter... ]
Noam Chomsky: Well, I think that what used to be called, centuries
ago, "wage slavery" is untolerable. And I don't think people ought to
be forced to rent themselves in order to survive. I think that the
economic institutions ought to be run democratically, by their
participants, by the communities in which they exist, and so on; and I
think basically through various kinds of free association.
“They who have put out the people’s eyes reproach them of their
blindness.” - John Milton, 1642.
The Third Reich was very effective in many ways. I think we have much
to learn from their rhetoric which, when analyzed, can be quite
instructive. Much of it points directly to the methodology used
globally ever since. Without an understanding of how leaders
manufacture consent, we are doomed to repeating the human frailty of
susceptibility to nationalistic appetites and we will never have the
clarity of mind, emotion and will to be able to demand the peace which
is our absolute right. – OM
From a conversation with Herman Goering (a German politician, military
leader and a leading member of the Nazi Party) in his cell at the
Nuremberg trials 4/18/1946 found in ‘Nurenberg Diary’, a book by
Gustave Gilbert who was an intelligence officer and psychologist
granted free access by the Allies to all prisoners held in the
Nurenberg jail:
====== www.snopes.com =====
“Why, of course, the people don’t want war,” Goering shrugged “Why
would some poor slob on a farm risk his life in a war when the best he
can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally,
the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor
in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But,
after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy
and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it
is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a
Communist dictatorship.”
“There is one difference,” I [Gilbert] pointed out. “In a democracy
the people have some say in the matter through their elected
representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare
wars.”
[Goering] “Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the
people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is
easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and
denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country
to danger. It works the same way in any country.”
======
JOSEPH GOEBBELS - a German politician and Reichsminister of Propaganda
in Nazi Germany from 1933 to 1945.
"...the rank and file are usually much more primitive than we imagine.
Propaganda must therefore always be essentially simple and
repetitious. The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no
success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind
constantly...it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them
over and over." – Joseph Goebbels
“During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than
information." – Joseph Goebbels
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent,
for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension,
the truth is the greatest enemy of the State." – Joseph Goebbels
“Whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state, for
every form of power politics and any dictatorship-run state has its
roots in the street.” – Joseph Goebbels
"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of
public opinion." – Joseph Goebbels
=====
Quotes from the movie “Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the
Media” www.IMDB.Com
Noam Chomsky: The point is that in a military state or a feudal state,
or what you would nowadays call a totalitarian state, it doesn't much
matter what people think, because you've got a legend over there that
you can control what they do. But when the state looses legend, and
you can't control people by force. And when the voice of the people
can be heard you have this problem, it may make people so curious and
so arrogant that they don't have the humility to submit to a civil
rule. And therefore you have to control what people think.
Noam Chomsky: Goebbels was in favor of free speech for views he liked.
So was Stalin. If you're really in favor of free speech, then you're
in favor of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise.
Otherwise, you're not in favor of free speech.
Noam Chomsky: There's maybe twenty percent of the population that is
relatively educated, more or less articulate, that play some kind of
role in decision making. They're supposed to participate in social
life either as managers, or cultural managers, like say, teachers,
writers and so on. They're supposed to vote. They're supposed to play
some role in the way economic, political and cultural life goes on.
Now they're consent is crucial. It's one group that has to be deeply
indoctrinated. Then there's maybe eighty percent of the population
whose main function is to follow orders and not to think.
Noam Chomsky: When the state looses the bludgeon... you have to
control what people think. And the standard way to do this is to
resort to what in more honest days used to be called propaganda.
Noam Chomsky: There's nothing more remote from what we have been
discussing than a conspiracy theory. If I give an analysis of, say the
economic system, and I point out that GM tries to maximize profit and
market share - that's not a conspiracy theory; that's an institutional
analysis. It has nothing to do with conspiracies. That's precisely the
sense in which we've been talking about the media. The phrase
"conspiracy theory" is one of those that's constantly brought up, and
I think it's effect simply is to discourage institutional analysis.
Noam Chomsky: Suppose I get on "Nightline". I'm given two minutes and
I say Quaddafi is a terrorist or Khomeini is a murderer... I don't
need any evidence, everybody just nods. On the other hand, suppose you
say something that just isn't regurgitating conventional pieties...
Suppose you say "The biggest international terror operations that are
known are the ones that are run out of Washington", or suppose, you
say "What happened in the 1980s is the US government was driven
underground", suppose I say "The US is invading South Vietnam," as it
was, or "The best political leaders are the ones that are lazy and
corrupt", "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war
american president would have been hanged.", "The Bible is one of the
most genocidal books in the total canon.", "Education is a system of
imposed ignorance", "There is no more morality in world affairs,
fundamentally, then there was at the time of Genghis Khan..." People
will, quite reasonably, expect to know what you mean. Why did you say
that ?... You'd better have a lot of evidence... But you can't give
evidence if you're stuck with concision. That's the genius of this
structural contraint. And in my view, people from Nightline and so on,
if they were smarter, if they were better propagandists, they would
let dissidents on, let them on more in fact. The reason is, that they
would sound like they're from Neptune.
Noam Chomsky: What sems to me a - in a sense - very terrifying aspect
of our society, and of other societies, is the equanimity and the
detachment with which sane, reasonable, sensible people can observe
such events. I think that's more terrifying than the occasional Hitler
or LeMay or other that crops up. These people would not be able to
operate were it not for this apathy and equanimity. And therefore I
think that it's in some sense the sane and reasonable and tolerant
people who share a very serious burden of guilt, which they very
easily throw on the shoulders of others who seem more extreme or more
violent.
Noam Chomsky: It means you have to develop an independent mind, and
work on it. Now that's extremely hard to do alone. The beauty of our
system is that is isolates everything. Each person is sitting alone in
front of the tube, you know. It's very hard to have ideas and thoughts
under the circumstances. You can't fight the world alone. Some people
can but it's pretty rare. The way to do it is with organization. So of
course there's an intellectual self defence, will have to be in the
context of political and other organization.
Noam Chomsky: Modern industrial civilization has developed within a
certain system of convenient myths. The driving force of modern
industrial civilization has been individual material gain... Now it's
long been understood - very well - that a society that is based on
this principle will destroy itself in time. It can only persist - with
whatever suffering and injustice it entails - as long as it's possible
to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited,
that the world is an infinite resource, and that the world is an
infinite garbage can. At this stage of history either... the general
population will take control of its own destiny and will concern
itself with community issues guided by values of solidarity, and
sympathy, and concern for others, or - alternatively - there will be
no destiny for anyone to control.
Noam Chomsky: The way things change is because lots of people are
working all the time. They're working in their communities, at their
workplace, or wherever they happen to be, and they are building up the
basis for popular movements which are going to make changes. That's
the way everything has ever happened in history, whether it was the
end of slavery or the democratic revolution, anything you want, you
name it, that's the way it worked. You get a very false picture of
this from the history books. In the history books there's a couple of
leaders...
question from the audience: Refering back to your earlier comment
about escaping from or doing away with capitalism - I was wondering
which workable scheme you would put in its place?
Noam Chomsky: Me?
[laughter... ]
Noam Chomsky: Well, I think that what used to be called, centuries
ago, "wage slavery" is untolerable. And I don't think people ought to
be forced to rent themselves in order to survive. I think that the
economic institutions ought to be run democratically, by their
participants, by the communities in which they exist, and so on; and I
think basically through various kinds of free association.
Vam
Oct 11, 2009, 10:23:46 AM10/11/09
to "Minds Eye"
Thank you, OM ! The quotes are grim reminders of ourself and of
irrational power structures rooted in our mass ignorance.
I see all this sing - a - song ga - ga paen to BO as being symptomatic
of much the same, albeit a ' feel good ' one.
What we need be doing is not to suspend our critical eye and to
continue to ask : BO ... who ?
What has he done ? What is he doing ? What does it bode for our
future ? There are some positives, in terms of what he's said he
represents. But, at the end of the day, we are still to find out if
did it all lead to causing more trust, goodwill, security, hope,
transparency, fraternity, simplicity, joy and happiness ... ?
Did it take us closer to reconciliation of people who are merely
different, who merely have different perspectives, who are either
violent ( for reasons of their own ) or are facing the violent ( for
no rhyme or reason ) ?
Did we end up changing the world, its global power structures,
thoughts, beliefs and attitudes, resource management priorities and
poverty management practices ?
Did we come to strengthen and orient our global institutions towards
voices of the different, small, poor and weak people among us ?
Have we better assured ourselves from all the violence potential in
the arms stockpiles, ideology wars, global warmimg, military -
industrial - economic cliques ... ?
Have we brought the interests of the common global citizen to our
collective fore ?
The day we have some positive answers and evidence to back up, that
would be the day to let BO know how we see his life and his work !
The rest is either religious fervour or political subtlety.
> about escaping from or doing away with capitalism ...
>
> read more »
irrational power structures rooted in our mass ignorance.
I see all this sing - a - song ga - ga paen to BO as being symptomatic
of much the same, albeit a ' feel good ' one.
What we need be doing is not to suspend our critical eye and to
continue to ask : BO ... who ?
What has he done ? What is he doing ? What does it bode for our
future ? There are some positives, in terms of what he's said he
represents. But, at the end of the day, we are still to find out if
did it all lead to causing more trust, goodwill, security, hope,
transparency, fraternity, simplicity, joy and happiness ... ?
Did it take us closer to reconciliation of people who are merely
different, who merely have different perspectives, who are either
violent ( for reasons of their own ) or are facing the violent ( for
no rhyme or reason ) ?
Did we end up changing the world, its global power structures,
thoughts, beliefs and attitudes, resource management priorities and
poverty management practices ?
Did we come to strengthen and orient our global institutions towards
voices of the different, small, poor and weak people among us ?
Have we better assured ourselves from all the violence potential in
the arms stockpiles, ideology wars, global warmimg, military -
industrial - economic cliques ... ?
Have we brought the interests of the common global citizen to our
collective fore ?
The day we have some positive answers and evidence to back up, that
would be the day to let BO know how we see his life and his work !
The rest is either religious fervour or political subtlety.
>
> read more »
ornamentalmind
Oct 11, 2009, 1:30:03 PM10/11/09
to "Minds Eye"
Yes Vam. And, given a choice, I prefer the latter (below) based on
rhetoric alone and currently feel happier and more relieved than I did
for the previous 8 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVMbtSOkhSA&feature=PlayList&p=A623119C3589CEE7&index=0&playnext=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g4rjbJVa1w
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
rhetoric alone and currently feel happier and more relieved than I did
for the previous 8 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVMbtSOkhSA&feature=PlayList&p=A623119C3589CEE7&index=0&playnext=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g4rjbJVa1w
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Don Johnson
Oct 11, 2009, 2:13:40 PM10/11/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Mr. Johnson? Who's that? Hey, I'm just trying to counter the Obama
love fest a tad. I had forgotten about Gore or I would have mentioned
him as well. Nobody won in 1939? The current bunch of yahoos would
probably have picked Chamberlain. I wonder if he was nominated?
Sorry about the negative reaction. I probably shouldn't even comment
on stuff like this just like I usually avoid discussions on God but I
just couldn't help myself. I've pretty much discounted Nobel peace
prizes as political speech ever since 1994. This latest award proves
my point. The award should be for accomplishments. Frankly, Orn has
done more for peace then Mr. Obama.
I don't think many people put much prestige behind the award anymore.
Most of the people I know that actually pay attention to this sort of
thing thought it was a joke. Did you see the clip from the
announcement? Did you hear the gasps and muttering? I may be the
lone dissenter in this group but I'm not alone in world opinion. The
man didn't deserve it and he knows it. Why else give all the prize
money to charity? That kind of smack would buy the First Lady a whole
lot of 600 dollar shoes.
dj
love fest a tad. I had forgotten about Gore or I would have mentioned
him as well. Nobody won in 1939? The current bunch of yahoos would
probably have picked Chamberlain. I wonder if he was nominated?
Sorry about the negative reaction. I probably shouldn't even comment
on stuff like this just like I usually avoid discussions on God but I
just couldn't help myself. I've pretty much discounted Nobel peace
prizes as political speech ever since 1994. This latest award proves
my point. The award should be for accomplishments. Frankly, Orn has
done more for peace then Mr. Obama.
I don't think many people put much prestige behind the award anymore.
Most of the people I know that actually pay attention to this sort of
thing thought it was a joke. Did you see the clip from the
announcement? Did you hear the gasps and muttering? I may be the
lone dissenter in this group but I'm not alone in world opinion. The
man didn't deserve it and he knows it. Why else give all the prize
money to charity? That kind of smack would buy the First Lady a whole
lot of 600 dollar shoes.
dj
gruff
Oct 11, 2009, 2:36:19 PM10/11/09
to "Minds Eye"
Of course the Nobel Peace Prize is political. Just like the Nobel
prizes in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology and Medicine are scientific,
and in Literature is artistic. Politics is a primary part of the
character of peace which is a state of existence among human beings
which, by definition, are political creatures. In fact, a part of
all Nobel prizes is political because of that very fact.
On Oct 11, 11:13 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mr. Johnson? Who's that? Hey, I'm just trying to counter the Obama
> love fest a tad. I had forgotten about Gore or I would have mentioned
> him as well. Nobody won in 1939? The current bunch of yahoos would
> probably have picked Chamberlain. I wonder if he was nominated?
> Sorry about the negative reaction. I probably shouldn't even comment
> on stuff like this just like I usually avoid discussions on God but I
> just couldn't help myself. I've pretty much discounted Nobel peace
> prizes as political speech ever since 1994. This latest award proves
> my point. The award should be for accomplishments. Frankly, Orn has
> done more for peace then Mr. Obama.
>
> I don't think many people put much prestige behind the award anymore.
> Most of the people I know that actually pay attention to this sort of
> thing thought it was a joke. Did you see the clip from the
> announcement? Did you hear the gasps and muttering? I may be the
> lone dissenter in this group but I'm not alone in world opinion. The
> man didn't deserve it and he knows it. Why else give all the prize
> money to charity? That kind of smack would buy the First Lady a whole
> lot of 600 dollar shoes.
>
> dj
>
prizes in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology and Medicine are scientific,
and in Literature is artistic. Politics is a primary part of the
character of peace which is a state of existence among human beings
which, by definition, are political creatures. In fact, a part of
all Nobel prizes is political because of that very fact.
On Oct 11, 11:13 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mr. Johnson? Who's that? Hey, I'm just trying to counter the Obama
> love fest a tad. I had forgotten about Gore or I would have mentioned
> him as well. Nobody won in 1939? The current bunch of yahoos would
> probably have picked Chamberlain. I wonder if he was nominated?
> Sorry about the negative reaction. I probably shouldn't even comment
> on stuff like this just like I usually avoid discussions on God but I
> just couldn't help myself. I've pretty much discounted Nobel peace
> prizes as political speech ever since 1994. This latest award proves
> my point. The award should be for accomplishments. Frankly, Orn has
> done more for peace then Mr. Obama.
>
> I don't think many people put much prestige behind the award anymore.
> Most of the people I know that actually pay attention to this sort of
> thing thought it was a joke. Did you see the clip from the
> announcement? Did you hear the gasps and muttering? I may be the
> lone dissenter in this group but I'm not alone in world opinion. The
> man didn't deserve it and he knows it. Why else give all the prize
> money to charity? That kind of smack would buy the First Lady a whole
> lot of 600 dollar shoes.
>
> dj
>
Don Johnson
Oct 11, 2009, 2:48:51 PM10/11/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Ok Mr. Smarty Semantics(Mr. gruff just doesn't sound right) what I
meant was that the selection committee deliberately picks people with
a certain ideological bent without much regard to actual
accomplishments. It would be easy to argue Reagan and Bush both
contributed mightily to world peace by building up the American
military both technologically and in training and weapons to make
rogue countries tremble in fear at the very thought of going to war
with us. I know most of you don't buy it but it would be easy to make
the argument.
dj
meant was that the selection committee deliberately picks people with
a certain ideological bent without much regard to actual
accomplishments. It would be easy to argue Reagan and Bush both
contributed mightily to world peace by building up the American
military both technologically and in training and weapons to make
rogue countries tremble in fear at the very thought of going to war
with us. I know most of you don't buy it but it would be easy to make
the argument.
dj
gruff
Oct 11, 2009, 2:52:21 PM10/11/09
to "Minds Eye"
Odds for winner of 2009 Nobel peace prize, selected October 8, 2009.
Sima Samar, 9 to 2
Piedad Cordoba, 5 to 1
Hu Jia, 6 to 1
Prince Ghazi bin Muhhamad, 7 to 1
Morgan Tsvangirai, 8 to 1
Thich Quang Do, 10 to 1
Ingrid Betancourt, 12 to 1
Bill Clinton, 14 to 1
Cluster Munition Coalition, 14 to 1
Barack Obama, 14 to 1
Mwai Kibaki, 18 to 1
Pete Seeger, 25 to 1
Nicholas Sarkozy, 33 to 1
Michael Jackson, 33 to 1
Tony Blair, 50 to 1
Bob Geldof, 50 to 1
Esperanto, 66 to 1
Vladimir Putin, 250 to 1
George Bush, 500 to 1
Found at PaddyPower.com which makes odds on virtually everything in
the world. I find it interesting that they put the odds the same for
both Sarkozy and Jackson and also for Blair and Geldof. It's also
interesting that GWB was even in the running ... for the peace
prize???
Sima Samar, 9 to 2
Piedad Cordoba, 5 to 1
Hu Jia, 6 to 1
Prince Ghazi bin Muhhamad, 7 to 1
Morgan Tsvangirai, 8 to 1
Thich Quang Do, 10 to 1
Ingrid Betancourt, 12 to 1
Bill Clinton, 14 to 1
Cluster Munition Coalition, 14 to 1
Barack Obama, 14 to 1
Mwai Kibaki, 18 to 1
Pete Seeger, 25 to 1
Nicholas Sarkozy, 33 to 1
Michael Jackson, 33 to 1
Tony Blair, 50 to 1
Bob Geldof, 50 to 1
Esperanto, 66 to 1
Vladimir Putin, 250 to 1
George Bush, 500 to 1
Found at PaddyPower.com which makes odds on virtually everything in
the world. I find it interesting that they put the odds the same for
both Sarkozy and Jackson and also for Blair and Geldof. It's also
interesting that GWB was even in the running ... for the peace
prize???
Don Johnson
Oct 11, 2009, 2:55:34 PM10/11/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Bob Geldof I get. But MJ??? Maybe for NAMBLA...
dj
dj
iam deheretic
Oct 11, 2009, 3:33:32 PM10/11/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Vam sometimes I think you walk with your eyes closed because you do not want to see. One thing I see happening he is dissolving the school yard bully mentality that was so deeply installed by the Bush mentality, bringing into play a genuine desire for Peace that is something that is desperately needed by this world to day.
"I see said the blind man but he did not see at all!"
Allan
"I see said the blind man but he did not see at all!"
Allan
Slip Disc
Oct 11, 2009, 4:10:29 PM10/11/09
to "Minds Eye"
Very good Allan, accurate observation on all counts, rare occasion but
accurate nonetheless. Obama easily transcends the Bush childish
bravado and seems to stand on his own platform.
On Oct 11, 2:33 pm, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vam sometimes I think you walk with your eyes closed because you do not want
> to see. One thing I see happening he is dissolving the school yard bully
> mentality that was so deeply installed by the Bush mentality, bringing into
> play a genuine desire for Peace that is something that is desperately needed
> by this world to day.
>
> "I see said the blind man but he did not see at all!"
> Allan
>
> ...
>
> read more »
accurate nonetheless. Obama easily transcends the Bush childish
bravado and seems to stand on his own platform.
On Oct 11, 2:33 pm, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vam sometimes I think you walk with your eyes closed because you do not want
> to see. One thing I see happening he is dissolving the school yard bully
> mentality that was so deeply installed by the Bush mentality, bringing into
> play a genuine desire for Peace that is something that is desperately needed
> by this world to day.
>
> "I see said the blind man but he did not see at all!"
> Allan
>
>
> read more »
Vam
Oct 11, 2009, 11:22:48 PM10/11/09
to "Minds Eye"
It's OK for you to think as you do, Allan ! And, it's OK too for me
not to think as you do.
I've nothing against BO. In fact, it feels good it is he on the stage
instead of Bush, and I certainly wish he succeeds at what he 's
promised to pursue and deliver.
Only, I see no purpose is served in concluding too soon. And, I see no
reason whatsoever for going ga - ga over BO, from what I've observed
so far.
not to think as you do.
I've nothing against BO. In fact, it feels good it is he on the stage
instead of Bush, and I certainly wish he succeeds at what he 's
promised to pursue and deliver.
Only, I see no purpose is served in concluding too soon. And, I see no
reason whatsoever for going ga - ga over BO, from what I've observed
so far.
iam deheretic
Oct 12, 2009, 1:00:21 AM10/12/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I like Obama, the truth is I had severe reservations while he was running, but against his opponent there was not much of a choice. since he has been in office he has removed some of the toxicity from the air, for which I am grateful.
He has a plan to get the USA back on a stable economic condition, he is trying to get health insurance for everyone. I do have health insurance. And when I lived alone with my family in the USA I could not afford it and my employers did not supply it or even the possibility to get it, so I know what it is like to be with out insurance. Six years ago I ended up hospitalized for just under 24 hrs. My insurance company immediately sent them a letter of guarantee saying that all my hospital bill would be paid for and gave the address to which to send the bill to.. Thought the hospital and dosctors tried to double bill me they were paid in full upon recieving the bill. I had access to look at the cost and it exceeded $8,000.oo Nothing major was done just 24 hours in intensive care. Yes I did need to be there.
With medical bills of this type of insanity, something needs to be done. I see a lot of this having started with the Regan administration when the great republican oprea began to sing ( You can still hear them singing "me me me me me ME ME ME!) some thing has to be done, The only hope I see is Obama being directly opposed by the finacial intrest of the Republican Opra.
I am sorry I do not see any other door opening that even offers a ray of hope. I for one will encourage the faint spark of hope and I will do everything I can to get it to grow into a raging bonfire.
Allan
He has a plan to get the USA back on a stable economic condition, he is trying to get health insurance for everyone. I do have health insurance. And when I lived alone with my family in the USA I could not afford it and my employers did not supply it or even the possibility to get it, so I know what it is like to be with out insurance. Six years ago I ended up hospitalized for just under 24 hrs. My insurance company immediately sent them a letter of guarantee saying that all my hospital bill would be paid for and gave the address to which to send the bill to.. Thought the hospital and dosctors tried to double bill me they were paid in full upon recieving the bill. I had access to look at the cost and it exceeded $8,000.oo Nothing major was done just 24 hours in intensive care. Yes I did need to be there.
With medical bills of this type of insanity, something needs to be done. I see a lot of this having started with the Regan administration when the great republican oprea began to sing ( You can still hear them singing "me me me me me ME ME ME!) some thing has to be done, The only hope I see is Obama being directly opposed by the finacial intrest of the Republican Opra.
I am sorry I do not see any other door opening that even offers a ray of hope. I for one will encourage the faint spark of hope and I will do everything I can to get it to grow into a raging bonfire.
Allan
On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 5:22 AM, Vam <atewa...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's OK for you to think as you do, Allan ! And, it's OK too for me
not to think as you do.
I've nothing against BO. In fact, it feels good it is he on the stage
instead of Bush, and I certainly wish he succeeds at what he 's
promised to pursue and deliver.
Only, I see no purpose is served in concluding too soon. And, I see no
reason whatsoever for going ga - ga over BO, from what I've observed
so far.
On Oct 12, 12:33 am, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Vam sometimes I think you walk with your eyes closed because you do not want
> to see. One thing I see happening he is dissolving the school yard bully
> mentality that was so deeply installed by the Bush mentality, bringing into
> play a genuine desire for Peace that is something that is desperately needed
> by this world to day.
>
> "I see said the blind man but he did not see at all!"
> Allan
>
gabbydott
Oct 12, 2009, 4:16:36 PM10/12/09
to "Minds Eye"
Hey Allan, I love bonfires, too. Wouldn't you agree that the ME ME ME
in opera terminology is more of a me-myself-andI?
in opera terminology is more of a me-myself-andI?
iam deheretic
Oct 12, 2009, 9:29:24 PM10/12/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
;o) Gabby I do agree with the me myself and I, as for the great operas I always picture the singers back stage warming up with throat atomisers in hand me, me, me, ME and once warmed up they then enter the stage to sing the full blown opera Me, Myself and I!
Allan
Allan
Molly Brogan
Oct 13, 2009, 8:53:01 AM10/13/09
to "Minds Eye"
I me mine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5S1G9lNV4U
On Oct 12, 9:29 pm, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ;o) Gabby I do agree with the me myself and I, as for the great operas I
> always picture the singers back stage warming up with throat atomisers in
> hand me, me, me, ME and once warmed up they then enter the stage to sing
> the full blown opera *Me, Myself and I!*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5S1G9lNV4U
On Oct 12, 9:29 pm, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ;o) Gabby I do agree with the me myself and I, as for the great operas I
> always picture the singers back stage warming up with throat atomisers in
> hand me, me, me, ME and once warmed up they then enter the stage to sing
pol.science kid
Oct 15, 2009, 10:16:20 AM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
dude! are peace rallies relevant.. i mean i've been in loads of
rallies.. started to lose faith in them.. the authorities dont seem to
give a damn unless you break some windows.. and when you do that you
get arrested.. wats the point!
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know the majority oppose the award given to President Obama, The Nobel
> Peace Prize was created to promote peace. It is doing just what Alfred Nobel
> intended it to do .
>
> As for those that oppose President Obama getting it,, in the USA if I
> remember right the majority supported the war in Iraq. Me I marched in the
> peace demonstrations doing every thing I could to try and avoid the private
> Bush war.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> > With the First Step*
> > **
rallies.. started to lose faith in them.. the authorities dont seem to
give a damn unless you break some windows.. and when you do that you
get arrested.. wats the point!
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know the majority oppose the award given to President Obama, The Nobel
> Peace Prize was created to promote peace. It is doing just what Alfred Nobel
> intended it to do .
>
> As for those that oppose President Obama getting it,, in the USA if I
> remember right the majority supported the war in Iraq. Me I marched in the
> peace demonstrations doing every thing I could to try and avoid the private
> Bush war.
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 7:13 AM, <gwilliamsn...@aol.com> wrote:
> > * A* *Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins
> > With the First Step*
> > **
> > The majority of those opposed to Obama winning the award are not anti
> > Obama so much as they question the selection committees' timing. Premature
> > is the word most associated with those who question the judges' judgment.
> > Clearly it depends on one's perspective as to how the process that
> > potentially results in peace comes about.
>
> > Between any noble idea and its realization is a continuum of incremental
> > steps.
>
> > The idea of peace is a universal goal for most people who share the common
> > ethic of live and let live. Doesn't everyone share that ethic? Of course we
> > know that the answer to this question is a resounding no.
>
> --
> (
> )
> I_D Allan- Hide quoted text -
> > Obama so much as they question the selection committees' timing. Premature
> > is the word most associated with those who question the judges' judgment.
> > Clearly it depends on one's perspective as to how the process that
> > potentially results in peace comes about.
>
> > Between any noble idea and its realization is a continuum of incremental
> > steps.
>
> > The idea of peace is a universal goal for most people who share the common
> > ethic of live and let live. Doesn't everyone share that ethic? Of course we
> > know that the answer to this question is a resounding no.
>
> --
> (
> )
Don Johnson
Oct 15, 2009, 11:41:25 AM10/15/09
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I'm totally hip Dude. It's like a real bummer. These days you have
to do some serious damage to property and maybe really mess somebody
up and bust some heads to get a little attention brought to how badly
we need world peace. The establishment just don't get it, man. Sigh.
It's tuff being an aging hippie...
dj
to do some serious damage to property and maybe really mess somebody
up and bust some heads to get a little attention brought to how badly
we need world peace. The establishment just don't get it, man. Sigh.
It's tuff being an aging hippie...
dj
Slip Disc
Oct 15, 2009, 4:51:53 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
Good to see you back participating again pol kid.
Rallies are not much good when they are only conducted in small groups
which appear more like some disgruntled group of people and seems to
diminish the intensity of the issue. If you really want to get a
point across you have to have organization, a reach out program that
informs people of the issue, people who agree with your group.
Believe me, when you have over 150,000 people parading for an issue,
when there are so many people around that the area becomes grid lock,
people are going to listen, people who aren't there are going to pay
attention, the news media is going to have a field day and the whole
world will be watching and as a result millions of people start to
voice there opinion. Breaking windows only hurts the people who have
to call their insurance company and pay higher premiums, and aside
from that it's vandalism. You can't get a point across by vandalizing
someone's property.
Fact is that in this day and age of computer networking it is easier
than ever to get together a few thousand people and organize a march.
In the sixties it wasn't so easy but it worked with combined effort.
Remember that in government there is always an authority of the
authority. Do you think that when Martin Luther King organized a
march on Washington he only had a few hundred people with him? What
do you think would have happened if he showed up with 50 people, think
about it. Get with it, organize!
Rallies are not much good when they are only conducted in small groups
which appear more like some disgruntled group of people and seems to
diminish the intensity of the issue. If you really want to get a
point across you have to have organization, a reach out program that
informs people of the issue, people who agree with your group.
Believe me, when you have over 150,000 people parading for an issue,
when there are so many people around that the area becomes grid lock,
people are going to listen, people who aren't there are going to pay
attention, the news media is going to have a field day and the whole
world will be watching and as a result millions of people start to
voice there opinion. Breaking windows only hurts the people who have
to call their insurance company and pay higher premiums, and aside
from that it's vandalism. You can't get a point across by vandalizing
someone's property.
Fact is that in this day and age of computer networking it is easier
than ever to get together a few thousand people and organize a march.
In the sixties it wasn't so easy but it worked with combined effort.
Remember that in government there is always an authority of the
authority. Do you think that when Martin Luther King organized a
march on Washington he only had a few hundred people with him? What
do you think would have happened if he showed up with 50 people, think
about it. Get with it, organize!
Slip Disc
Oct 15, 2009, 5:17:27 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
The problem Don is that we have as a society become too complacent and
with the advent of split second computing and microwave cookery we
just simply expect to have a beef about something and in a few minutes
it all done just the way we like it. The establishment? Hah! That
is another problem, there is no more establishment, the government is
in total disarray with way too many factions to allow for efficient
governing. Taxpayers simply fork over trillions of dollars so that
people can sit around and argue, while the other portion goes off on
wild military incursions. If you haven't noticed by now, nothing ever
get's resolved, it's just a perpetual quagmire of problems that need
to be addressed, that is at the cost of lives and tax payers backs.
And look now how one of our esteemed Chairman of the House Ways and
Means Committee is caught in a Tax Fraud Scandal.
http://americaswatchtower.com/2008/09/05/charlie-rangel-caught-in-tax-fraud-scandal/
He claimed he didn't know he was supposed to claim the income???
Moron? Idiot? Both?
These are supposed to be the people we trust to run our lives? Hey!
He's only one that has been exposed, who knows how many more of our
esteemed royalty politicians are crooks. Government has gotten
toooooooooo big and in fact sooooooo big that no one really knows what
in hell is going on anymore. Let's not forget the $300 screwdrivers
and $600 toilet seats that taxpayers were doling out on account of
government dysfunction. I'm sure you are aware and I don't need to
bring up Pork Barrel Spending and all the other Government Waste
expenditures.
Bottom line is that government has more money coming in than they know
what to do with. Imagine running your household the way these morons
run the government! You would be out in the street in a few months.
On Oct 15, 10:41 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm totally hip Dude. It's like a real bummer. These days you have
> to do some serious damage to property and maybe really mess somebody
> up and bust some heads to get a little attention brought to how badly
> we need world peace. The establishment just don't get it, man. Sigh.
> It's tuff being an aging hippie...
>
> dj
>
with the advent of split second computing and microwave cookery we
just simply expect to have a beef about something and in a few minutes
it all done just the way we like it. The establishment? Hah! That
is another problem, there is no more establishment, the government is
in total disarray with way too many factions to allow for efficient
governing. Taxpayers simply fork over trillions of dollars so that
people can sit around and argue, while the other portion goes off on
wild military incursions. If you haven't noticed by now, nothing ever
get's resolved, it's just a perpetual quagmire of problems that need
to be addressed, that is at the cost of lives and tax payers backs.
And look now how one of our esteemed Chairman of the House Ways and
Means Committee is caught in a Tax Fraud Scandal.
http://americaswatchtower.com/2008/09/05/charlie-rangel-caught-in-tax-fraud-scandal/
He claimed he didn't know he was supposed to claim the income???
Moron? Idiot? Both?
These are supposed to be the people we trust to run our lives? Hey!
He's only one that has been exposed, who knows how many more of our
esteemed royalty politicians are crooks. Government has gotten
toooooooooo big and in fact sooooooo big that no one really knows what
in hell is going on anymore. Let's not forget the $300 screwdrivers
and $600 toilet seats that taxpayers were doling out on account of
government dysfunction. I'm sure you are aware and I don't need to
bring up Pork Barrel Spending and all the other Government Waste
expenditures.
Bottom line is that government has more money coming in than they know
what to do with. Imagine running your household the way these morons
run the government! You would be out in the street in a few months.
On Oct 15, 10:41 am, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm totally hip Dude. It's like a real bummer. These days you have
> to do some serious damage to property and maybe really mess somebody
> up and bust some heads to get a little attention brought to how badly
> we need world peace. The establishment just don't get it, man. Sigh.
> It's tuff being an aging hippie...
>
> dj
>
ornamentalmind
Oct 15, 2009, 6:03:28 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
“…Believe me, when you have over 150,000 people parading for an issue,
Again, when this happens, it happens. On the other hand, in most
countries, the US included, often media censorship cripples such
movements by simply ignoring and/or imputing irrational motivations to
such activities. Anyone remember the last 8 years? I participated in
very large marches. I was able to see other marches of hundreds of
thousands of people worldwide. However, this was ONLY by watching
Democracy Now!, and using the internet. Corporate media here was
silent overall.
“…Breaking windows only hurts the people who have to call their
Slip, while I do know what you are saying here and personally agree on
the whole, I would suggest that often such ‘vandalism’ is the only way
to gain people’s attention. Simple example: Boston Tea Party. Yes,
there was underlying organization etc. And, I could present countless
hypothetical ways to be ‘successful’ in a social movement using
destruction of property. For the obvious reason(s), I hesitate to do
so openly.
“…Fact is that in this day and age of computer networking it is easier
Yes, most people now have new tools for networking. This includes and
is dominated by those who do not need to go to the streets. For those
who do use the net to coordinate marches etc., there is a very real
threat of incarceration for doing so. Countless examples exist. Here
is only a recent example. Do note that it was not carried on corporate
TV.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/6/twitter_crackdown_nyc_activist_arrested_for
Personal social commentary:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpqut_the-revolution-will-not-be-televise_music
“…In the sixties it wasn't so easy but it worked with combined effort.
Absolutely Slip! The civil rights movement was very carefully
organized from Rosa Parks who didn’t just decide unilaterally that day
to ride in the front of the bus. It was only after years of activist
organization and training that this historic event occurred. This is
often tacitly ignored by many. Also, from a different view, those
‘brought to justice’ like James Earl Ray and Lee Harvey Oswald deny
their involvement. Yes, this is common, to deny. And, the circumstance
and historical events do present grave and large questions beyond any
simple conspiracy theory is mentioned, a commonly used ad hominem.
Today, with the grossly misnomered “Patriot Act”, satellite
surveillance, cameras covering almost every square inch of ‘civilized’
nations and other technological advancements, I doubt that the US
would have come about due to an original Tea Party type of activity.
Given all of this, I agree that change often will and does take an
organized and often large movement. Exceptions do come to mind. So,
here’s to supporting your rallying cry Slip!!!
“ Get with it, organize! “ – Slip Disk
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
when there are so many people around that the area becomes grid lock,
people are going to listen, people who aren't there are going to pay
attention, the news media is going to have a field day and the whole
world will be watching and as a result millions of people start to
voice there opinion…” – SD
people are going to listen, people who aren't there are going to pay
attention, the news media is going to have a field day and the whole
world will be watching and as a result millions of people start to
Again, when this happens, it happens. On the other hand, in most
countries, the US included, often media censorship cripples such
movements by simply ignoring and/or imputing irrational motivations to
such activities. Anyone remember the last 8 years? I participated in
very large marches. I was able to see other marches of hundreds of
thousands of people worldwide. However, this was ONLY by watching
Democracy Now!, and using the internet. Corporate media here was
silent overall.
“…Breaking windows only hurts the people who have to call their
insurance company and pay higher premiums, and aside from that it's
vandalism. You can't get a point across by vandalizing someone's
property. …” – SD
vandalism. You can't get a point across by vandalizing someone's
Slip, while I do know what you are saying here and personally agree on
the whole, I would suggest that often such ‘vandalism’ is the only way
to gain people’s attention. Simple example: Boston Tea Party. Yes,
there was underlying organization etc. And, I could present countless
hypothetical ways to be ‘successful’ in a social movement using
destruction of property. For the obvious reason(s), I hesitate to do
so openly.
“…Fact is that in this day and age of computer networking it is easier
than ever to get together a few thousand people and organize a march.
…” - SD
Yes, most people now have new tools for networking. This includes and
is dominated by those who do not need to go to the streets. For those
who do use the net to coordinate marches etc., there is a very real
threat of incarceration for doing so. Countless examples exist. Here
is only a recent example. Do note that it was not carried on corporate
TV.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/6/twitter_crackdown_nyc_activist_arrested_for
Personal social commentary:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpqut_the-revolution-will-not-be-televise_music
“…In the sixties it wasn't so easy but it worked with combined effort.
Remember that in government there is always an authority of the
authority. Do you think that when Martin Luther King organized a
march on Washington he only had a few hundred people with him? What
do you think would have happened if he showed up with 50 people, think
about it….” – SD
authority. Do you think that when Martin Luther King organized a
march on Washington he only had a few hundred people with him? What
do you think would have happened if he showed up with 50 people, think
Absolutely Slip! The civil rights movement was very carefully
organized from Rosa Parks who didn’t just decide unilaterally that day
to ride in the front of the bus. It was only after years of activist
organization and training that this historic event occurred. This is
often tacitly ignored by many. Also, from a different view, those
‘brought to justice’ like James Earl Ray and Lee Harvey Oswald deny
their involvement. Yes, this is common, to deny. And, the circumstance
and historical events do present grave and large questions beyond any
simple conspiracy theory is mentioned, a commonly used ad hominem.
Today, with the grossly misnomered “Patriot Act”, satellite
surveillance, cameras covering almost every square inch of ‘civilized’
nations and other technological advancements, I doubt that the US
would have come about due to an original Tea Party type of activity.
Given all of this, I agree that change often will and does take an
organized and often large movement. Exceptions do come to mind. So,
here’s to supporting your rallying cry Slip!!!
“ Get with it, organize! “ – Slip Disk
ornamentalmind
Oct 15, 2009, 6:11:04 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
All good points Slip. Further, I suggest that if the ‘third estate’
were not bought and paid for, giving them the actual freedom to
investigate, and their voices were widely heard, things would change
much more rapidly. The day when Democracy Now!, is given credit and
widely advertised might bring about the change its name implies. Side
comment, a while back, Amy Goodman, host and reporter for the program,
received calls wanting to know when her transcript of a specific
current event would be uploaded to her website. In fact, after a
couple of such calls, she asked the caller why she need the transcript
so quickly and the woman responded that they had a deadline at the
MacNeil/Lehrer show for that night!
On Oct 15, 2:17 pm, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem Don is that we have as a society become too complacent and
> with the advent of split second computing and microwave cookery we
> just simply expect to have a beef about something and in a few minutes
> it all done just the way we like it. The establishment? Hah! That
> is another problem, there is no more establishment, the government is
> in total disarray with way too many factions to allow for efficient
> governing. Taxpayers simply fork over trillions of dollars so that
> people can sit around and argue, while the other portion goes off on
> wild military incursions. If you haven't noticed by now, nothing ever
> get's resolved, it's just a perpetual quagmire of problems that need
> to be addressed, that is at the cost of lives and tax payers backs.
> And look now how one of our esteemed Chairman of the House Ways and
> Means Committee is caught in a Tax Fraud Scandal.http://americaswatchtower.com/2008/09/05/charlie-rangel-caught-in-tax...
> > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
were not bought and paid for, giving them the actual freedom to
investigate, and their voices were widely heard, things would change
much more rapidly. The day when Democracy Now!, is given credit and
widely advertised might bring about the change its name implies. Side
comment, a while back, Amy Goodman, host and reporter for the program,
received calls wanting to know when her transcript of a specific
current event would be uploaded to her website. In fact, after a
couple of such calls, she asked the caller why she need the transcript
so quickly and the woman responded that they had a deadline at the
MacNeil/Lehrer show for that night!
On Oct 15, 2:17 pm, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem Don is that we have as a society become too complacent and
> with the advent of split second computing and microwave cookery we
> just simply expect to have a beef about something and in a few minutes
> it all done just the way we like it. The establishment? Hah! That
> is another problem, there is no more establishment, the government is
> in total disarray with way too many factions to allow for efficient
> governing. Taxpayers simply fork over trillions of dollars so that
> people can sit around and argue, while the other portion goes off on
> wild military incursions. If you haven't noticed by now, nothing ever
> get's resolved, it's just a perpetual quagmire of problems that need
> to be addressed, that is at the cost of lives and tax payers backs.
> And look now how one of our esteemed Chairman of the House Ways and
archytas
Oct 15, 2009, 6:45:05 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
I think we have to commit crime to get attention. It would be great
to organise, but we can rarely do that. I reckon we need (sadly)
stupid, strike-like protests that hold people trying to get on holiday
up and so on. Better to have real democracy, but we don't.
On 15 Oct, 22:17, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem Don is that we have as a society become too complacent and
> with the advent of split second computing and microwave cookery we
> just simply expect to have a beef about something and in a few minutes
> it all done just the way we like it. The establishment? Hah! That
> is another problem, there is no more establishment, the government is
> in total disarray with way too many factions to allow for efficient
> governing. Taxpayers simply fork over trillions of dollars so that
> people can sit around and argue, while the other portion goes off on
> wild military incursions. If you haven't noticed by now, nothing ever
> get's resolved, it's just a perpetual quagmire of problems that need
> to be addressed, that is at the cost of lives and tax payers backs.
> And look now how one of our esteemed Chairman of the House Ways and
> Means Committee is caught in a Tax Fraud Scandal.http://americaswatchtower.com/2008/09/05/charlie-rangel-caught-in-tax...
to organise, but we can rarely do that. I reckon we need (sadly)
stupid, strike-like protests that hold people trying to get on holiday
up and so on. Better to have real democracy, but we don't.
On 15 Oct, 22:17, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem Don is that we have as a society become too complacent and
> with the advent of split second computing and microwave cookery we
> just simply expect to have a beef about something and in a few minutes
> it all done just the way we like it. The establishment? Hah! That
> is another problem, there is no more establishment, the government is
> in total disarray with way too many factions to allow for efficient
> governing. Taxpayers simply fork over trillions of dollars so that
> people can sit around and argue, while the other portion goes off on
> wild military incursions. If you haven't noticed by now, nothing ever
> get's resolved, it's just a perpetual quagmire of problems that need
> to be addressed, that is at the cost of lives and tax payers backs.
> And look now how one of our esteemed Chairman of the House Ways and
Slip Disc
Oct 15, 2009, 6:58:24 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
Agreed upon wholly with the exception that media cannot censorship
video surveillance, even they know that others are going to be taping
the event and why risk trying to manipulate a reality event such as a
march on Washington. Again it's the mass that makes the difference.
Small protests are the equivalent of a small military skirmish, it's
doesn't really do anything. k
The breaking windows comment (don't you read back before responding?)
is in response to Pol Kid's Post.
Finally, I do think that someone (not me) should start up a POP site,
People Of Power dot Com in order to organize the populace against this
outlandish behavior of government officials who lately resemble the
likes of historical street thugs.
Lastly, your link to the arrest of Elliot Madison is in my opinion
irrelevant. Madison was usurping police protection in the case of
some unfortunate riot spurned from some protesters protesting the
protesters. What would have happened if there was a riot and people
were killed on account that Madison, through his manipulations, warded
off the protection of the police during protests? I'll give him a set
of balls but really not much in the brain area. Radicals usually
don't think things through, they are too irrational and driven by
their personal abhorrence of the issue. He was a fool who should have
figured out the "potential reality" of his actions.
> http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/6/twitter_crackdown_nyc_activist_...
>
> Personal social commentary:
>
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpqut_the-revolution-will-not-be-tel...
video surveillance, even they know that others are going to be taping
the event and why risk trying to manipulate a reality event such as a
march on Washington. Again it's the mass that makes the difference.
Small protests are the equivalent of a small military skirmish, it's
doesn't really do anything. k
The breaking windows comment (don't you read back before responding?)
is in response to Pol Kid's Post.
Finally, I do think that someone (not me) should start up a POP site,
People Of Power dot Com in order to organize the populace against this
outlandish behavior of government officials who lately resemble the
likes of historical street thugs.
Lastly, your link to the arrest of Elliot Madison is in my opinion
irrelevant. Madison was usurping police protection in the case of
some unfortunate riot spurned from some protesters protesting the
protesters. What would have happened if there was a riot and people
were killed on account that Madison, through his manipulations, warded
off the protection of the police during protests? I'll give him a set
of balls but really not much in the brain area. Radicals usually
don't think things through, they are too irrational and driven by
their personal abhorrence of the issue. He was a fool who should have
figured out the "potential reality" of his actions.
>
> Personal social commentary:
>
> http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpqut_the-revolution-will-not-be-tel...
ornamentalmind
Oct 15, 2009, 9:11:46 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
Well, while the media cannot suppress video surveillance, often the
police do. Here I assume we are talking about personal video devices.
When it comes to the cameras already in place on every street corner
and in every parking lot, it is another thing entirely.
As to the conscious non-reporting of events, even very large events,
such questions as to ‘why’ do it should mostly be directed to those
such as Murdock. And, such things were happening a lot over the last
handful of years.
Recent:
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/28/nearly_200_arrested_as_police_unleash
Infiltration:
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/28/broadcast_exclusive_declassified_docs_reveal_military
Hundreds of thousands not covered by NBC:
http://www.democracynow.org/2002/10/28/hundreds_of_thousands_protest_war_from
Four hundred thousand in Britain:
http://www.democracynow.org/2002/10/1/400_000_protestors_demonstrate_in_britain
Being shot at by the establishment:
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/4/8/police_fire_rubber_bullets_wooden_pellets
Millions protest worldwide, hundreds of thousands in NYC:
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/3/24/millions_protest_around_the_world_hundreds
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/3/20/hundreds_of_thousands_take_to_the
Hundreds of thousands:
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/1/20/from_washington_d_c_to_san
My point is that most of the above was not reported by the US
corporate owned TV franchises. And, what little may have been reported
elsewhere is all too often forgotten, perhaps the next day unless one
is informed and involved.
“…The breaking windows comment (don't you read back before
responding?)
is in response to Pol Kid's Post…” - SD
Yes, I had read what he said and reread it before my post. What I
posted was directed to what you posted.
As to a “POP” site, I think they already exist. However, most of them
originate in other countries.
“… Radicals usually don't think things through, they are too
While such people surely exist, what I find are those who thoughtfully
respond to situations in ways that for many might appear to be
irrational. And, of course, most of the motivation IS abhorrence to
situations that one feels are intolerable.
As to ‘fools’ who ‘should’ (magic word again! ;-) ), be responsible
for their actions, countless were when they fled to Canada during Nam.
A few went AWOL during Iraq. And, for those who were brave enough to
actually DO something actively against a perceived oppressor, one of
the best examples I can come up with is Nathan Hale. I empathize with
his view. Of course, he was involved with a very well organized
resistance to the ruling powers.
Perhaps Archy is correct in this respect.
police do. Here I assume we are talking about personal video devices.
When it comes to the cameras already in place on every street corner
and in every parking lot, it is another thing entirely.
As to the conscious non-reporting of events, even very large events,
such questions as to ‘why’ do it should mostly be directed to those
such as Murdock. And, such things were happening a lot over the last
handful of years.
Recent:
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/28/nearly_200_arrested_as_police_unleash
Infiltration:
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/28/broadcast_exclusive_declassified_docs_reveal_military
Hundreds of thousands not covered by NBC:
http://www.democracynow.org/2002/10/28/hundreds_of_thousands_protest_war_from
Four hundred thousand in Britain:
http://www.democracynow.org/2002/10/1/400_000_protestors_demonstrate_in_britain
Being shot at by the establishment:
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/4/8/police_fire_rubber_bullets_wooden_pellets
Millions protest worldwide, hundreds of thousands in NYC:
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/3/24/millions_protest_around_the_world_hundreds
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/3/20/hundreds_of_thousands_take_to_the
Hundreds of thousands:
http://www.democracynow.org/2003/1/20/from_washington_d_c_to_san
My point is that most of the above was not reported by the US
corporate owned TV franchises. And, what little may have been reported
elsewhere is all too often forgotten, perhaps the next day unless one
is informed and involved.
“…The breaking windows comment (don't you read back before
responding?)
is in response to Pol Kid's Post…” - SD
Yes, I had read what he said and reread it before my post. What I
posted was directed to what you posted.
As to a “POP” site, I think they already exist. However, most of them
originate in other countries.
“… Radicals usually don't think things through, they are too
irrational and driven by their personal abhorrence of the issue. He
was a fool who should have figured out the "potential reality" of his
actions…” – SD
was a fool who should have figured out the "potential reality" of his
While such people surely exist, what I find are those who thoughtfully
respond to situations in ways that for many might appear to be
irrational. And, of course, most of the motivation IS abhorrence to
situations that one feels are intolerable.
As to ‘fools’ who ‘should’ (magic word again! ;-) ), be responsible
for their actions, countless were when they fled to Canada during Nam.
A few went AWOL during Iraq. And, for those who were brave enough to
actually DO something actively against a perceived oppressor, one of
the best examples I can come up with is Nathan Hale. I empathize with
his view. Of course, he was involved with a very well organized
resistance to the ruling powers.
Perhaps Archy is correct in this respect.
Slip Disc
Oct 15, 2009, 9:42:52 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
Well I can't seem to grasp that concept, the crime element belays the
audience to the unlawful act and therefore only serves as a further
distraction. The issue soon falls back into obscurity after the
perpetrators are arrested and are serving their time.
What I've always gathered about people is this. They whine, whimper
and wallow in fear within the confines of their secure cubby and so
even though there are millions of potential protesters only a scant
few dare to leave the nest. This is the dilemma, people living in
fear of the government, even in the good ol usa. People see
protesters getting arrested and realize that as much as they hate how
they are getting screwed they would rather take the royal screw than
to complain publicly. I've seen it many times and have talked to many
who simply spend their time griping to one another, whether it be at
the market, the laundermat, the gas pumps or the beauty salon etc.
You couldn't get those people involved until they are personally
engaged in confrontation within the issue itself.
audience to the unlawful act and therefore only serves as a further
distraction. The issue soon falls back into obscurity after the
perpetrators are arrested and are serving their time.
What I've always gathered about people is this. They whine, whimper
and wallow in fear within the confines of their secure cubby and so
even though there are millions of potential protesters only a scant
few dare to leave the nest. This is the dilemma, people living in
fear of the government, even in the good ol usa. People see
protesters getting arrested and realize that as much as they hate how
they are getting screwed they would rather take the royal screw than
to complain publicly. I've seen it many times and have talked to many
who simply spend their time griping to one another, whether it be at
the market, the laundermat, the gas pumps or the beauty salon etc.
You couldn't get those people involved until they are personally
engaged in confrontation within the issue itself.
archytas
Oct 15, 2009, 9:42:54 PM10/15/09
to "Minds Eye"
I think if we end up in a draft (conscription here) war we will see
mass protests and 'defections'. I may volunteer to shoot the
deserters myself, on the grounds I'm not hearing their voices now!
It's now clear in the UK that inconvenient CCTV and other camera
evidence is not sought by cops, other than to destroy it (I think this
must have happened at Stockwell when the Brazilian guy was murdered).
The idiot who runs our police complaints body actually said on TV
there would be no footage of another police murder on London streets
where any fool would have known there would be (hardly saying much
about the keen investigation). Plod has a lot to be ashamed of on
this, as well as not locking up the thugs in its own ranks committing
offences in front of senior officers' eyes. All the footage from
reporters embedded with our soldiers I've seen has been staged. I
begin to wonder what might be on the soldiers' own cameras. What the
non-official footage is showing is that our officials lie almost
automatically.
Slightly off this general line, the public enquiry into Bloody Sunday
(1972) has now lasted 11 years and cost £200 million. I tend to think
its conclusion will be that it wasted 11 years and £200 million. I
really do think that the presence of CCTV and digital cameras in the
hands of the public would have made a difference there. 14 unarmed
civilians were killed by our Paras and I suspect the real truth of it
is that they were told not to hold back and it is this fact our
establishment wants to hold back. Elsewhere in NI we have scape-
goated soldiers and I'm sure these guys would have been thrown to the
wolves if doing so would not have forced them to talk about 'orders'.
A few more cameras and sound recordings and we would know for sure
whether there was ever any 'incoming'.
On 16 Oct, 02:11, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, while the media cannot suppress video surveillance, often the
> police do. Here I assume we are talking about personal video devices.
> When it comes to the cameras already in place on every street corner
> and in every parking lot, it is another thing entirely.
>
> As to the conscious non-reporting of events, even very large events,
> such questions as to ‘why’ do it should mostly be directed to those
> such as Murdock. And, such things were happening a lot over the last
> handful of years.
>
> Recent:http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/28/nearly_200_arrested_as_police_u...
>
> Infiltration:http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/28/broadcast_exclusive_declassifie...
>
> Hundreds of thousands not covered by NBC:http://www.democracynow.org/2002/10/28/hundreds_of_thousands_protest_...
>
> Four hundred thousand in Britain:http://www.democracynow.org/2002/10/1/400_000_protestors_demonstrate_...
>
> Being shot at by the establishment:http://www.democracynow.org/2003/4/8/police_fire_rubber_bullets_woode...
>
> Millions protest worldwide, hundreds of thousands in NYC:http://www.democracynow.org/2003/3/24/millions_protest_around_the_wor...
> ...
>
> read more »
mass protests and 'defections'. I may volunteer to shoot the
deserters myself, on the grounds I'm not hearing their voices now!
It's now clear in the UK that inconvenient CCTV and other camera
evidence is not sought by cops, other than to destroy it (I think this
must have happened at Stockwell when the Brazilian guy was murdered).
The idiot who runs our police complaints body actually said on TV
there would be no footage of another police murder on London streets
where any fool would have known there would be (hardly saying much
about the keen investigation). Plod has a lot to be ashamed of on
this, as well as not locking up the thugs in its own ranks committing
offences in front of senior officers' eyes. All the footage from
reporters embedded with our soldiers I've seen has been staged. I
begin to wonder what might be on the soldiers' own cameras. What the
non-official footage is showing is that our officials lie almost
automatically.
Slightly off this general line, the public enquiry into Bloody Sunday
(1972) has now lasted 11 years and cost £200 million. I tend to think
its conclusion will be that it wasted 11 years and £200 million. I
really do think that the presence of CCTV and digital cameras in the
hands of the public would have made a difference there. 14 unarmed
civilians were killed by our Paras and I suspect the real truth of it
is that they were told not to hold back and it is this fact our
establishment wants to hold back. Elsewhere in NI we have scape-
goated soldiers and I'm sure these guys would have been thrown to the
wolves if doing so would not have forced them to talk about 'orders'.
A few more cameras and sound recordings and we would know for sure
whether there was ever any 'incoming'.
On 16 Oct, 02:11, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, while the media cannot suppress video surveillance, often the
> police do. Here I assume we are talking about personal video devices.
> When it comes to the cameras already in place on every street corner
> and in every parking lot, it is another thing entirely.
>
> As to the conscious non-reporting of events, even very large events,
> such questions as to ‘why’ do it should mostly be directed to those
> such as Murdock. And, such things were happening a lot over the last
> handful of years.
>
>
> Infiltration:http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/28/broadcast_exclusive_declassifie...
>
> Hundreds of thousands not covered by NBC:http://www.democracynow.org/2002/10/28/hundreds_of_thousands_protest_...
>
> Four hundred thousand in Britain:http://www.democracynow.org/2002/10/1/400_000_protestors_demonstrate_...
>
> Being shot at by the establishment:http://www.democracynow.org/2003/4/8/police_fire_rubber_bullets_woode...
>
> Millions protest worldwide, hundreds of thousands in NYC:http://www.democracynow.org/2003/3/24/millions_protest_around_the_wor...
>
> read more »
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