Problems with equality and the blight of democracy

[archytas]

I want to treat all humankind accepting peace and non-violence
equally. One quickly realises this can't work in full. I'm not
giving maths lessons to all the kids round here who need them but am
teaching my grandson. Most people can't even be trusted to find out
simple and easily available facts in making decisions or coming to
argument. There's an interesting example at - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Ariely
- which shows most in the US think things are more equal than they are
and actually want them more equal than they think (already a massive
fictional improvement on reality). I don't treat all women as equally
as my partner.

This doesn't lead me to dispatch equality as a concept - just
recognise it's an ideal with complexity.

Teaching has led me to the view that most people don't want to learn
much. I suspect schooling inculcates this in most. I've had a glut
of the stuff and can feel the bildung was for nothing in the freezing
moral climate of banksterism, selfish, plastic society and the eye for
the main chance. One teaches people who have to make their way in
this world but we seem to teach them very little about it.

If I ask students how much agriculture contributes to world GDP, most
of the answers are between 30 - 60%. It's 4%. How did they get so
dumb?
If I show students where to find the information they can get the
right answer. Sooner or later as a lecturer you discover students
have to be led by the nose - only a few are really interested in
thinking for themselves and becoming independent thinkers.

If the above is the case in universities, what hope is there for an
educated populace capable in democracy? Our politicians have long
given up on this as the case and are now vying for votes in emotional
ignorance and the fantasy worlds generated by alienation from facts -
even antipathy towards them.

Over here in the Banana Republic of the Sceptred Isle our PM Herr
Cameroon has noticed hardly any kids get adopted any more and it takes
over two years on average. This is dire evidence of jobsworth
bureaucracy. I'm sure it is.
I have noticed that "economics" pours nearly all available a monetary
value can be put on into the hands of a few rich. This is evidence the
economic system doesn't work. If he rings me up, I'll fix the
adoption system - as long as he does his job on what I've noticed.
Both these facts are true and admitting they are is important - but
facts are not all there is to argument.

And argument is the blight of democracy - it isn't about investigation
and enquiry. It's about persuasion of the populace - a populace to
lazy to do its own work on the facts, tired of its failure in an
education system that ensures there is no benefit in finding out for
yourself.

[Vam]

" I want to treat all humankind accepting peace and non-violence
equally."

Most of us will start with something as clean and clear, then hang in
deliberation when faced with their " self-interest "... when it comes
to acting in accord with what is clear and clean... and lose
themselves in the " complexity " of things, obtaining saving leverages
from thoughts of how the " world " and " humanity " is...

The argument has always remained with us. It still lies with us...
and, fortunately, happily, many many of us are actually taking it
forward, almost wading into the " populace " and turning them around
to becoming forces of freedom and light, because they clearly and
cleanly feel and hence understand their own true will, against the
historical momentum of feudalism, slavery and darkness.

The age of science and management has raised our thought, provided us
with tools and platforms. But it still needs the spirit, riding on
clean values and clear purpose... that bundle of hope and belief,
etched knowledge and massive will. The rest will follow... there are
millions of us too, equipped with the tools and poised on the
platforms.

On Oct 7, 6:01 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I want to treat all humankind accepting peace and non-violence
> equally.  One quickly realises this can't work in full.  I'm not
> giving maths lessons to all the kids round here who need them but am
> teaching my grandson.  Most people can't even be trusted to find out
> simple and easily available facts in making decisions or coming to

> argument.  There's an interesting example at -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Ariely

[Allan H]

I tend to agree with you,,  now if I were to guess agriculture would have been somewhere between 10 - 14 %   when I looked it up I got 6% GDP  what I can not find is the percentage of people involved in agriculture..there is no such thing as equality.

Yes people tend to want to be lead around by the nose.. sad but true.. that is why they buy into the spin doctors..  what was it Hitler used to say,,"If you are going to tel people a lie, tell them a big one they will believe it.

The people that signed the american declaration of independence were not the cream of society  but just the opposite. 

If I  do not make sense or bad spelling,, or other grammars problems   part of it is due to  the medication I am on,,  please try and fill in the blanks..

Thank you for putting up with me

Allan

--
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|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

[Allan H]

agreed

Allan

[archytas]

I've never put up with you Allan - I like you. I agree Vam and have
always wandered about doing what I can. My spirit is positive in that
sense. What a blessing it would be if argument was about agreeing
what facts we can and getting on into practice. What makes me pall is
to find practice dogged with the madness of debt banking and the rest
that gets in the way.

On Oct 7, 5:44 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> agreed
> Allan
>
>
>
>
> is the kind of

[Vam]

"... the madness of debt banking and the rest that gets in the way."

That's the fkg rot that needs to be purged. It's happening... 2 more
( relatively small ) banks in US have folded up ! More would have, but
for the State largesse. But it can't really be postponed. Even the
inflationary model of economy is unsustainable. It will crash, sooner
or later. We will all be rich if it can be prempted.

Those on the other side will hold up, maybe for long too. But you see,
my friend, the task is easier than what you imagine. All that needs to
happen is for the people to understand what " capitalism " they
want... freedom to intiate and add... the meaning that serves them...
and not the meaning which the oligarchs have given to it for their own
ends, that the corrupt mouth to orient the public thought. So too with
what "globalisation" ought to mean... "free market" ... "WTO" ...
"Climate" ... "Environment" ... "Competition" ... every one of these
need to be understood, as the people values they include and not the
profit and self-interest motifs they have been pre-loaded with.

And the people will understand the difference between Democratic
Capitalism and Capitalist Democracy sooner than later. Give it the
push. I have heard some cries and fears but wtf... it just needs to
happen for things to get better, to be more proportionate and even,
and happier.

[archytas]

I'm for giving it the push Vam.

[Edward Mason]

This is a draft that I found in my folder that I must have thought was
already sent out. Maybe I should have checked the status of the
discussion before I forwarded it now. I did not. But here we are,
anyway. Sorry for the fault!

>>"This doesn't lead me to dispatch equality as a concept - 'just

>>recognize it's an ideal with complexity.' "

I can agree with this to the extent that I feel equality as a
concept can only be held by first placing it in it's proper context-
Understanding. And Understanding is of the family
Knowledge-Wisdom-Understanding. The three point principles which make
up the Tree of Life, Referred to in the book of Revelation and on the
stone walls of the Pyramids of Egypt. Mistaken in modern religions as
the trinity of a Threefold-God.

Without which, man will not be able to govern himself on a massive
level, and must depend on a governing body. When there is a governing
body among Man, there will be issues of the illusive concept of
Equality. To me, it appears that there is set of circumstances,
events, conditions, or other similar elements, that would cause the
soul to falter if it does not live out those three major Principles.
Does anyone remember what YVHV told the Israelite when they first
asked for a king to rule over them because of the age of Samuel?
Basically He told them that there will be NOTHING EQUAL between you
and the king (ruling body), he (the king) will take it all, ( 1 Samuel
8 ). His craft to continue in today's world is to paint the allusion
that it is fair and equal.

[Allan H]

Sorry to tell you Edward but all souls are created equal,, it is their behavior that separates them.. am trying to figure out whether you follow Crowley or the Golden Rule..  walked away from those concepts years ago..  they just don't hold validity..  mostly due to twisted and distorted idea..   taking ideas and then twisting them to fill the idea to meet their needs..

you really need to study theology  rather than make unfounded claims. 

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|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

[Molly]

Good to see Vam here again in any form.

On May 17, 6:15 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry to tell you Edward but all souls are created equal,, it is their
> behavior that separates them.. am trying to figure out whether you follow
> Crowley or the Golden Rule..  walked away from those concepts years ago..
>  they just don't hold validity..  mostly due to twisted and distorted
> idea..   taking ideas and then twisting them to fill the idea to meet their
> needs..
>
> you really need to study theology  rather than make unfounded claims.
>

> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[rigs]

I agree that equality, freedom, liberty, democracy are ruined concepts
as they have been abused for wars and to garner votes. The USA
Consitiution did not originally intend equality re women, slaves and
the poor, for instance- that was a new concept. Even wealth cannot buy
one social status and admiration, if that is a goal. I think there is
a natural hierarchy to observe in the animal kingdom- unfortunately it
consists of predator vs. prey. (Am thinking of re-reading The Divine
Comedy by Dante after reading a rather dull chapter by Dan Brown from
"Inferno". We read the Sayers version as sophomores in college.)

> > argument.  There's an interesting example at -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Ariely

> > yourself.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[archytas]

I missed most of the classics as a kid, coming to them in search of
metaphor for organisation theory. I don't find a lot in them now if
I'm honest. In terms of most human behaviour I'm inclined to the
view we focus on unitary views where the biology shows us plural
systems. We have also made the biological-scientific view something
it is not - as in daft stuff like men being stronger than women and
"thus should be subservient".
Parliament is debating gay marriage over the next two days (great live
television - er - not). Everyone should be equal in law, but various
cranks who want to opt out and not marry gays or divorced people if
they happen to be priests or registrars, apparently. It is much more
important that such as banksters and our elected representatives
should be equal to the rest of us in law. No debate on that.

Dan Brown is dull - but it seems dullness sells.

[rigs]

I missed a lot of science and math :-)- that's why I'm glad I ran into
you!

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Edward Mason]

Trying to get the apple without seeing the tree. The tree is a despicable sight; it has objects of reflections on it, by which we are forced to see ourselves as we are: as opposed to how we think of ourselves/ how we would have others see us. 

We learn by applying knowledge to what we know; trying to make what we know make sense to us even though it remains filled with holes. It seems impossible to become empty so that we may be filled. If what we see does not fit what we think is, then we have not desire to investigate the true origins of each element, if necessary. With controlled experiments, we are left we experience. There is no substitute for experience, so at that point we may safely apply wisdom and understanding. 

Random thought patterns. 

[Allan H]

maybe you look at who you really are,,  Edward when are you going to answer the 5 questions I asked,,  

[gabbydott]

In case you haven't noticed yet, Neil, I am having an arrogance problem. I tend to not not take other people's fears serious, for I could give them reasons that their fears are irrational and can be solved. But then biological men are really stronger and banksters and elected representatives are really doing their job better than I do mine.

2013/5/20 archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>

[gabbydott]

No, Edward. We are not born with holes that are waiting to become full-filled, nor are we born empty or can we become empty. Something has to happen to make us rethink, relearn, reevaluate to make new sense. But really this can be anything.

2013/5/20 Edward Mason <masoned...@gmail.com>

[Edward Mason]

My argument would be that the learning process begins in the womb and is a part of the development; movement would be a direct indication. We have to learn to move the members the body. Once the baby is born, many of the previous restrictions on movement are removed, so it has to re-adjust to movement. It doesn't take nearly as much energy now to raise an arm; to extend a leg. It keeps the same knowledge that it acquired in order to move these members, but adjust to the difference in the environment. Therefore, for the purpose of understanding, let's say that the baby was born in the womb, and it was reborn once it left it.

Now let us consider the mind of the child in development after birth. It absorbs all of the cultural values of the environment in which it is raised. In order for the child to believe anything other than what it has learned in regard to a belief system, there has to be some catalyst for change. Some times this can be as subtle as a curiosity that something is not adding up here, and then spend the rest of a natural life is search of something that fits. 

However, as history has proven from the records that we keep, most of us require a catalyst which threatens to bring to an end the three things that are most important to us. The three things that we learn to sacrifice everything for and to find justification for doing so at all cost, namely, Me, My and I.

Wherefore, we say that the act of changing this is rebirth, or get a new bottle to put the new wine in, because the new wine will burst the old bottle.

Our catalyst for change has progressively reached humanity. And since we are all essentially equal, we all have the ability and responsibility to fix it. The ruling bodies are only puppets in the hands of the ruling Factors.          

[Allan H]

you should read more Edward, I quit drinking  33 years ago before that I enjoyed making wine and  can tell you for a fact recycling wine bottles is common practice.. I have never seen an old bottle break because you put new wine in it..    other than  that you are funny

[Edward Mason]

Source: Wikipedia; New Wine Into Old Bottles.

Interpretation [edit]

The two parables relate to the relationship between Jesus' teaching and traditional Judaism.^[3] According to some interpreters, Jesus here "pits his own, new way against the old way of thePharisees and their scribes."^[2] In the early second century, Marcion, founder of Marcionism, used the passage to justify a "total separation between the religion that Jesus and Paul espoused and that of the Hebrew Scriptures."^[4]

Other interpreters see Luke as giving Christianity roots in Jewish antiquity,^[2] although "Jesus has brought something new, and the rituals and traditions of official Judaism cannot contain it."^[5]

In his commentary on Matthew, Mark, and Luke,^[6] John Calvin states that the old wineskins and the old garment represent Jesus' disciples, and the new wine and unshrunk cloth represent the practice of fasting twice a week. Fasting this way would be burdensome to the new disciples, and would be more than they could bear.^[7]

Both the suggestion that Christianity was being presented as something that Judaism "cannot contain" (France^[5]), and that Jesus was worried about burdening his disciples (Calvin^[7]), present additional problems which are difficult to reconcile with other New Testament teaching. Christianity was very much "contained" within Judaism, at least it was in the Jerusalem church, for decades, and Jesus' description of his yoke is that it is "easy" and "light" (Matt 11:30).

The metaphors in the two parables were drawn from contemporary culture.^[3] New cloth had not yet shrunk, so that using new cloth to patch older clothing would result in a tear as it began to shrink.^[8] Similarly, old wineskins had been "stretched to the limit"^[8] or become brittle^[3] as wine had fermented inside them; using them again therefore risked bursting them.^[8]

[rigs]

There are many sacrifices made without the spur of ego involvement.

> > 2013/5/20 Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com>

>
> >> Trying to get the apple without seeing the tree. The tree is a despicable
> >> sight; it has objects of reflections on it, by which we are forced to see
> >> ourselves as we are: as opposed to how we think of ourselves/ how we would
> >> have others see us.
>
> >> We learn by applying knowledge to what we know; trying to make what we
> >> know make sense to us even though it remains filled with holes. It seems
> >> impossible to become empty so that we may be filled. If what we see does
> >> not fit what we think is, then we have not desire to investigate the
> >> true origins of each element, if necessary. With controlled experiments, we
> >> are left we experience. There is no substitute for experience, so at that
> >> point we may safely apply wisdom and understanding.
>
> >> Random thought patterns.
>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Allan H]

that applies to old wine SKINS and is very true.. new wine will burst them..   bottles is a poor interpretation because it simply does not apply..

What I think you are failing to take into consideration is that jewish faith is the base foundation from which his ideas are built..   it does not eliminate the Jewish faith, there are indications of buddhaist influence in what he had to say.  you also have to take into consideration that the letters that paul wrote. the Gospels were all written later and under the influence of Paul.  actually none of them "Knew" Jesus in person.

As for the easy and light thing  often quoted and actually little understood..

as for commentaries  i find them trying to explain what the writer often times really does not does not understand what is said.  they are great for muddying the waters.

[gabbydott]

Eijeijei, Edward! Let me suggest a rearrangement of your setting. Let's say the life of a new human being begins in the womb - generally speaking. This life is a life as long as it is in continuous development and learning and change and movement. When the baby is born we say that the baby is born. It can be shown around the age of 18 month that the child is able to correctly identify its own body when looking into the mirror. Now that does not mean that the child would have needed more and earlier mirror exposition to come up with better movement coordination results - culture at that stage is still too weak to find something to hold onto in that body and mind, so to speak. But the mirror will become more and more the catalyst for your managing your change processes, yes. That's why you need to take good care of it! :)

2013/5/21 Edward Mason <masoned...@gmail.com>

[gabbydott]

exposition/exposure

2013/5/23 gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>

[Edward Mason]

Let's keep in mind that somewhere between conception and development there is a union of at-least two separate life forms; One of a spiritual nature and one of the physical. One much older than the other, yet the younger learns to take, what appears to be, control. While the older keeps the blueprints and the former impressions, and is cause/effect determination of the conditions for the younger; the younger barters for the the determination of the older. What we end up with in the metaphor is that Cain Slew Able.

Any suggestions upon finding such a mirror, able to cast such reflections? Where would we place it? 

So, you see, Truth brings it's own healing, (healing in it's Wings).   

Therefore, take the restraints off of Truth, and promote it instead; when we find it. Can you imagine the Power in one spark of it? Well, when it is multiplied a few times it becomes a Temple. A Nation. A Righteous Nation.

[archytas]

Arrogance isn't really your metier Gabbs - you are too prickly for
this bubble to form!

On 23 May, 20:31, Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Let's keep in mind that somewhere between conception and development there
> is a union of at-least two separate life forms; One of a spiritual nature
> and one of the physical. One much older than the other, yet the younger
> learns to take, what appears to be, control. While the older keeps the
> blueprints and the former impressions, and is cause/effect determination of
> the conditions for the younger; the younger barters for the the
> determination of the older. What we end up with in the metaphor is that
> Cain Slew Able.
>
> Any suggestions upon finding such a mirror, able to cast such reflections?
> Where would we place it?
>
> So, you see, Truth brings it's own healing, (healing in it's Wings).
>
> Therefore, take the restraints off of Truth, and promote it instead; when
> we find it. Can you imagine the Power in one spark of it? Well, when it is
> multiplied a few times it becomes a Temple. A Nation. A Righteous Nation.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 12:33 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > exposition/exposure
>
> > 2013/5/23 gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com>

>
> >> Eijeijei, Edward! Let me suggest a rearrangement of your setting. Let's
> >> say the life of a new human being begins in the womb - generally speaking.
> >> This life is a life as long as it is in continuous development and learning
> >> and change and movement. When the baby is born we say that the baby is
> >> born. It can be shown around the age of 18 month that the child is able to
> >> correctly identify its own body when looking into the mirror. Now that does
> >> not mean that the child would have needed more and earlier mirror
> >> exposition to come up with better movement coordination results - culture
> >> at that stage is still too weak to find something to hold onto in that body
> >> and mind, so to speak. But the mirror will become more and more the
> >> catalyst for your managing your change processes, yes. That's why you need
> >> to take good care of it! :)
>

> >> 2013/5/21 Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com>

> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:13 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> No, Edward. We are not born with holes that are waiting to become
> >>>> full-filled, nor are we born empty or can we become empty. Something has to
> >>>> happen to make us rethink, relearn, reevaluate to make new sense. But
> >>>> really this can be anything.
>

> >>>> 2013/5/20 Edward Mason <masonedward...@gmail.com>

>
> >>>>> Trying to get the apple without seeing the tree. The tree is
> >>>>> a despicable sight; it has objects of reflections on it, by which we are
> >>>>> forced to see ourselves as we are: as opposed to how we think of ourselves/
> >>>>> how we would have others see us.
>
> >>>>> We learn by applying knowledge to what we know; trying to make what we
> >>>>> know make sense to us even though it remains filled with holes. It seems
> >>>>> impossible to become empty so that we may be filled. If what we see does
> >>>>> not fit what we think is, then we have not desire to investigate the
> >>>>> true origins of each element, if necessary. With controlled experiments, we
> >>>>> are left we experience. There is no substitute for experience, so at that
> >>>>> point we may safely apply wisdom and understanding.
>
> >>>>> Random thought patterns.
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

It is a shame you have to take another persons ideas about a soul and claim the knowledge as your own ,,  no wonder I am evil and do do want me around..  I noticed your comment about the wings,,  is this not a distortion of what you said 

of course the soul and the body are joined during pregnancy, and massive amounts of research has gone into fetal learning,  Is this how you  try to justify your beliefs..

why can you not allow others to be right?

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[gabbydott]

As you might remember, Allan, I believe in God and the concept of soul. Soul by definition is time- and bodiless, which is why I find the image of soul and body joining at a certain point in individual development misleading. The soul as truth with wings is an image I find much more appropriate, being an ethereal entity of both the inside and the outside world. Just like I drink both tea and coffee and I take what is on offer.

2013/5/24 Allan H <allan...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

I do not find wings appropriate at all simply because it is not true, (as I see it),  but  and I repeat but..  the view is not destructive and in reality does no harm, (I think), personally I am beginning see the body more like a car for the soul in a spiritual realm called humanity..  Now That idea is extremely difficult for mind (soul) wrap around and accept  if for no other reason that it is going directly against what we have been taught for eons..   change is extremely difficult  especially spiritual views.

In the evolution of my beliefs..  many of which has been stimulated in the womb of ME ..  it appears that what we are experiencing here is essentially a blind test that is tailored to each soul..  essentially the interpolation of the ancient guideline "above all do no harm" ..  All souls know this guideline before their "Humanization" (non member Tim)..  

How others respond well it is their test not mine,,  I am only accountable for my responses,,  as for sharing  I hope what I have is taken as a stimulation of ideas  ad to examine ones beliefs,, and ideas..  and exchange of concepts  but wait a minute that is what ME is about..  If our ideas do not expand o what value is ME..