trust
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Molly
May 16, 2013, 1:15:37 PM5/16/13
to "Minds Eye"
Every adult I know has trust issues of one kind or another. Children
are the only people I have seen with complete trust, and not all of
them have it, and most of them lose it somewhere along the line.
Some people always extend trust initially, and then withdraw when
trust has been breached. Some people think that trust must always be
earned. Steven Covey Jr. thinks that trust is the number one issue in
the work place, and that an office culture cannot be healthy or
successful consistent trust building behaviors extended by all
employees.
An issue with trust can be overt, like not trusting any other person
and thinking that everyone "hurts" or lies or cheats. Or an issue can
be very subtle, like not trusting that life has anything to offer.
What do you think?
are the only people I have seen with complete trust, and not all of
them have it, and most of them lose it somewhere along the line.
Some people always extend trust initially, and then withdraw when
trust has been breached. Some people think that trust must always be
earned. Steven Covey Jr. thinks that trust is the number one issue in
the work place, and that an office culture cannot be healthy or
successful consistent trust building behaviors extended by all
employees.
An issue with trust can be overt, like not trusting any other person
and thinking that everyone "hurts" or lies or cheats. Or an issue can
be very subtle, like not trusting that life has anything to offer.
What do you think?
Allan H
May 16, 2013, 3:54:35 PM5/16/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I know I do extend trust.. yet I am always watching and listening..
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
Molly
May 17, 2013, 7:37:00 AM5/17/13
to "Minds Eye"
Life has been very good to me in the last couple of decades after
learning to trust myself enough to take a few bold steps and follow my
heart, or intuition as James puts it. Sometimes my inner guidance
leads me places that do not seem rational, are totally unfamiliar or
takes me out of my comfort zone. I had to learn the hard way that
life improves if I am willing to trust myself and what life has to
offer. This is much easier as a recluse. Being now dropped into
metro decay and corruption (even though improvement in this city can
be seen almost daily) I find myself not trusting and with good reason,
or so it seems. Sometimes I think about the story of St. Francis,
begging for food as was the custom. the homeless in Detroit are all
over the streets, as is the case really with all US cities, and I
haven't yet found peace with their approach.
On May 16, 3:54 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know I do extend trust.. yet I am always watching and listening..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Every adult I know has trust issues of one kind or another. Children
> > are the only people I have seen with complete trust, and not all of
> > them have it, and most of them lose it somewhere along the line.
>
> > Some people always extend trust initially, and then withdraw when
> > trust has been breached. Some people think that trust must always be
> > earned. Steven Covey Jr. thinks that trust is the number one issue in
> > the work place, and that an office culture cannot be healthy or
> > successful consistent trust building behaviors extended by all
> > employees.
>
> > An issue with trust can be overt, like not trusting any other person
> > and thinking that everyone "hurts" or lies or cheats. Or an issue can
> > be very subtle, like not trusting that life has anything to offer.
>
> > What do you think?
>
> > --
>
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > ""Minds Eye"" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.
> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
learning to trust myself enough to take a few bold steps and follow my
heart, or intuition as James puts it. Sometimes my inner guidance
leads me places that do not seem rational, are totally unfamiliar or
takes me out of my comfort zone. I had to learn the hard way that
life improves if I am willing to trust myself and what life has to
offer. This is much easier as a recluse. Being now dropped into
metro decay and corruption (even though improvement in this city can
be seen almost daily) I find myself not trusting and with good reason,
or so it seems. Sometimes I think about the story of St. Francis,
begging for food as was the custom. the homeless in Detroit are all
over the streets, as is the case really with all US cities, and I
haven't yet found peace with their approach.
On May 16, 3:54 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I know I do extend trust.. yet I am always watching and listening..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 7:15 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Every adult I know has trust issues of one kind or another. Children
> > are the only people I have seen with complete trust, and not all of
> > them have it, and most of them lose it somewhere along the line.
>
> > Some people always extend trust initially, and then withdraw when
> > trust has been breached. Some people think that trust must always be
> > earned. Steven Covey Jr. thinks that trust is the number one issue in
> > the work place, and that an office culture cannot be healthy or
> > successful consistent trust building behaviors extended by all
> > employees.
>
> > An issue with trust can be overt, like not trusting any other person
> > and thinking that everyone "hurts" or lies or cheats. Or an issue can
> > be very subtle, like not trusting that life has anything to offer.
>
> > What do you think?
>
> > --
>
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > ""Minds Eye"" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.
Allan H
May 17, 2013, 7:44:15 AM5/17/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
When I read of Pope Francis condemnation of wealth ,, I thought of you and the problems of Detroit which you face daily.. The voice of your soul is strong and it will guide you well,, you are one of the people I do trust you have a great capacity for understanding..
I do not think he will be popular with the Republican party as his words will carry greeat weight among Catholics and other people of strong morality.. what he did do is create a rallying point and a voice that echos in reality and history.. the Gold Calf economics has had its veil ripped off..
archytas
May 17, 2013, 2:09:21 PM5/17/13
to "Minds Eye"
Trust is subject to wobbly definition Moll - I've been reading some
dire stuff on neuroeconomics of late. Sue always has it that alien
ethnographers would be appalled to discover how frightened people are
of each other.
dire stuff on neuroeconomics of late. Sue always has it that alien
ethnographers would be appalled to discover how frightened people are
of each other.
Allan H
May 17, 2013, 3:17:47 PM5/17/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I can not help but wonder of how much are news media is at fault.. It seems as if they work at instilling fear.. it seems all that is on the news is extreme dramatic footage and it is taken to the extreme always trying for the most dramatic footage and continuing to hammer it home never letting it go until the next terror story comes along.. a recent example of this would be the Boston bombing.. 24 hr day coverage no let up .. with that kind of coverage how can you expect people not to be frightened..
Molly
May 17, 2013, 4:24:02 PM5/17/13
to "Minds Eye"
I think that fear is a big part of the inability to trust. Fear of
what can become blurry. A general fear expressed as a lack of self
trust - no trust that you can act and prevail, or preserver through
the suffering...
what can become blurry. A general fear expressed as a lack of self
trust - no trust that you can act and prevail, or preserver through
the suffering...
rigs
May 19, 2013, 10:22:01 AM5/19/13
to "Minds Eye"
Re children and trust- a good test is to slice the pie and watch their
eyes judging if each piece is exactly the same size or who got better
Christmas presents, etc.= sibling whining-rivalry. It may be traced to
self-interest over-riding trust in the family or group. Check out
Probate Court! The first sins of Genesis display this quite well- to
the point of expulsion and the first human murder.//Alert citizens
know the games being played in their cultures- do they accept or avoid
them? And what exactly is glorified in the various cultures of human
history? I think that's where the answer lies.//As for the media/news-
there is something warped that becomes intoxicated with violence,
crime, bad weather, Hollywood breasts, etc. Now local tweets play
under the news so we can get the immediate and ignorant reaction of
every tom-dick and harry which has supplanted the ancient water well
or tavern for gossipy opinion.//On the other hand, children have a
good reason to distrust if they are unfortunate to be born to twisted
parents. Even animals are trained on how to survive in the wild...and
the world is wild (Rollo May called it psychotic, I believe).
> > Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
eyes judging if each piece is exactly the same size or who got better
Christmas presents, etc.= sibling whining-rivalry. It may be traced to
self-interest over-riding trust in the family or group. Check out
Probate Court! The first sins of Genesis display this quite well- to
the point of expulsion and the first human murder.//Alert citizens
know the games being played in their cultures- do they accept or avoid
them? And what exactly is glorified in the various cultures of human
history? I think that's where the answer lies.//As for the media/news-
there is something warped that becomes intoxicated with violence,
crime, bad weather, Hollywood breasts, etc. Now local tweets play
under the news so we can get the immediate and ignorant reaction of
every tom-dick and harry which has supplanted the ancient water well
or tavern for gossipy opinion.//On the other hand, children have a
good reason to distrust if they are unfortunate to be born to twisted
parents. Even animals are trained on how to survive in the wild...and
the world is wild (Rollo May called it psychotic, I believe).
>
> - Show quoted text -
Molly
May 20, 2013, 7:11:04 AM5/20/13
to "Minds Eye"
Yes, indeed. our first basic trust lessons come early. I was always
interested to see how ruthless children can be. I suppose they learn
it somewhere. Left unchecked, it can grow into the now cliche
bullying that they tell us is part of growing up. Part of life,
actually, as my mother in law was a bully, and I watched he methods
become more subtle as time went after her overt methods were no longer
taken seriously. I think we learn, as time goes on, the currency of
trust - the exchange of trust and trustworthiness. It is as misused
as any other currency, but when used efficiently, brings quality to
life.
interested to see how ruthless children can be. I suppose they learn
it somewhere. Left unchecked, it can grow into the now cliche
bullying that they tell us is part of growing up. Part of life,
actually, as my mother in law was a bully, and I watched he methods
become more subtle as time went after her overt methods were no longer
taken seriously. I think we learn, as time goes on, the currency of
trust - the exchange of trust and trustworthiness. It is as misused
as any other currency, but when used efficiently, brings quality to
life.
archytas
May 20, 2013, 12:24:49 PM5/20/13
to "Minds Eye"
Most of us in organisational development gave up on the love-trust
model because we saw it as dangerous. The reality is Machiavellian.
Chris Argyris is probably the major writer in this area - essentially
we need to work with theories-in-use rather than espoused theories.
model because we saw it as dangerous. The reality is Machiavellian.
Chris Argyris is probably the major writer in this area - essentially
we need to work with theories-in-use rather than espoused theories.
rigs
May 20, 2013, 12:42:25 PM5/20/13
to "Minds Eye"
Having just worked through a major trust issue with my daughter I see
both sides- as love tamed the self-interest and we were able to arrive
at a mutually beneficial, rational (!) decision. Plus the roof beams
may be okay, I forgot to mention to all re the power of prayer. :-) It
is a flat roof with crenelated sides- tar and pebble, the best kind-
which will be removed and am opting for a rubber shield type which is
much less money and will last a lot longer than I will anyway. The
house roof was replaced after 40 years. The house is over 80.
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
both sides- as love tamed the self-interest and we were able to arrive
at a mutually beneficial, rational (!) decision. Plus the roof beams
may be okay, I forgot to mention to all re the power of prayer. :-) It
is a flat roof with crenelated sides- tar and pebble, the best kind-
which will be removed and am opting for a rubber shield type which is
much less money and will last a lot longer than I will anyway. The
house roof was replaced after 40 years. The house is over 80.
Molly
May 20, 2013, 4:28:22 PM5/20/13
to "Minds Eye"
Not sure those models help us if we find ourselves witholding trust
although not sure why. theories are great, but if I cannot trust, but
want to, the theories aren't all that helpful.
although not sure why. theories are great, but if I cannot trust, but
want to, the theories aren't all that helpful.
James
May 20, 2013, 11:57:33 PM5/20/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Machiavellian intelligence has been a useful concept for me in dealing
with manipulative, intelligent, and dominating personalities. How this
relates to trust, in my view prominently, is in reciprocation of honesty
and mutual respect. Identifying a bully in one of the three above is
easy as pie but can get confusing as skill increases across them all, it
can leave one questioning themselves, which most of the tactics are
targeting vulnerability or creating through unease. In turn what can be
gained is an immunity to those tactics and self recognition, as the
rules of the schoolground go or older siblings learning regret for
toughening up their little brother. The chaffing and soreness just isn't
worth the rub though, I am wondering why so many find themselves in a
position beneath such, and think a good many rules are in place to keep
a balance. If one lacks trust of self it seems they would have to endure
and persevere at the mercy of the games Molly. I mean that winceingly.
There is a great and well-guided side to it also! :) I am curious why I
keep thinking of 'motivation' when I try to place this into a
psychodynamic (unintended redundancy) context.
with manipulative, intelligent, and dominating personalities. How this
relates to trust, in my view prominently, is in reciprocation of honesty
and mutual respect. Identifying a bully in one of the three above is
easy as pie but can get confusing as skill increases across them all, it
can leave one questioning themselves, which most of the tactics are
targeting vulnerability or creating through unease. In turn what can be
gained is an immunity to those tactics and self recognition, as the
rules of the schoolground go or older siblings learning regret for
toughening up their little brother. The chaffing and soreness just isn't
worth the rub though, I am wondering why so many find themselves in a
position beneath such, and think a good many rules are in place to keep
a balance. If one lacks trust of self it seems they would have to endure
and persevere at the mercy of the games Molly. I mean that winceingly.
There is a great and well-guided side to it also! :) I am curious why I
keep thinking of 'motivation' when I try to place this into a
psychodynamic (unintended redundancy) context.
Allan H
May 21, 2013, 2:14:16 AM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies, dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
an
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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gabbydott
May 21, 2013, 5:32:48 AM5/21/13
to minds-eye
Oh, that's easy. Trust, in all its wobbliness as Neil describes it, which is to be enforced, is to motivate the community spirit.
I've made my community experiences with Molly which is why I know how far I can trust her. This knowledge is a gain in communicating with other Americans about trust, or rather not seeing any need to invest further energy in this fight which I can only loose.
an
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
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|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
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RP Singh
May 21, 2013, 6:08:08 AM5/21/13
to Minds Eye
" the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to follow.."
What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them down ?
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Allan H
May 21, 2013, 6:24:29 AM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or above all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better versed in Hindi than I am.
RP Singh
May 21, 2013, 6:58:30 AM5/21/13
to Minds Eye
Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
Allan H
May 21, 2013, 7:45:01 AM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer guideline are of a religious nature..
RP Singh
May 21, 2013, 8:22:15 AM5/21/13
to Minds Eye
When you quote the Bible it is a simple religious answer , but when others refer from a book you call them book thumpers. Aren't you contradicting yourself or maybe you are playing with two set of rules---one for yourself and your cronies and the other for the rest of us.
Molly
May 21, 2013, 8:39:06 AM5/21/13
to "Minds Eye"
A demonstration of trust
On May 21, 8:22 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you quote the Bible it is a simple religious answer , but when others
> refer from a book you call them book thumpers. Aren't you contradicting
> yourself or maybe you are playing with two set of rules---one for yourself
> and your cronies and the other for the rest of us.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> > guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
> ...
>
> read more »
On May 21, 8:22 am, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When you quote the Bible it is a simple religious answer , but when others
> refer from a book you call them book thumpers. Aren't you contradicting
> yourself or maybe you are playing with two set of rules---one for yourself
> and your cronies and the other for the rest of us.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> > guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
> >> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or above
> >>> all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better versed
> >>> in Hindi than I am.
>
> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to follow.."
>
> >>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them down ?
>
>
> >>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or above
> >>> all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better versed
> >>> in Hindi than I am.
>
> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to follow.."
>
> >>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them down ?
>
> >>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
>
> >>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
>
> read more »
RP Singh
May 21, 2013, 8:47:59 AM5/21/13
to Minds Eye
What do you mean Molly ? You trust Allan and not me , is that it ?
Allan H
May 21, 2013, 9:01:03 AM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
No not at all ,,, you asked a simple question and I gave the reference point,, nothing more .. I also refereed to the guideline source for you the Hindi beliefs.. If I tried hammering home christian fundamentalism beliefs on you,, again and again trying to convince you I am right that is bible thumping,,
I do know that one of the Islamic sect has beliefs relating to Zombies talking about their beliefs does not constitute book thumping.. or referring to gospel of Buddha is just a reference. If you are showing how a religious concept works is one thing.. trying to convert people to your belief you are into the realm of thumping..
I have my own beliefs some of which evolved from discussions right here on Minds Eye.. The idea of the group is to share knowledge not to make converts.. it is hard to explain beliefs,, examining them can be very interesting.. like I thought my comments relating to Zombies and souls.. RP it is strange to find out that you are saying and thought to be original has already been said and part of a sects beliefs..
Allan H
May 21, 2013, 9:03:18 AM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I am sure Molly trust you RP and I have learned a great deal from Molly's wisdom
RP Singh
May 21, 2013, 9:26:41 AM5/21/13
to Minds Eye
I have never talked about religion , if I have used such terminology it is just to express myself. I have never tried to convert anybody , only laying down my belief and it has nothing to do with religion. Examining my beliefs from different angles is not meant to coax you but simply a method of examination. We are here to discus our ideas , and if you think I am talking from a book , you are mistaken. All religions believe in human souls whereas I don't , so where is the book thumping that you are accusing me of all the time.
Allan H
May 21, 2013, 9:51:14 AM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
why don't you bluntly say just what you do believe.
Allan H
May 21, 2013, 9:58:56 AM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
RP I do not think different angles are a good way to explain anything.. especially when it feels or reads like someone leading you down a hidden path..
RP Singh
May 21, 2013, 10:02:42 AM5/21/13
to Minds Eye
This group is not meant for blunt admissions but for discussions regarding individual beliefs and ideas. If I bluntly say that I believe in an unconscious God and predeterminism , it amounts to nothing. I have to put forward logic and rational discourse in support of my beliefs , and if that does not convince you , so be it as I am not here to convert you to my belief system.
RP Singh
May 21, 2013, 10:07:11 AM5/21/13
to Minds Eye
You are not little children that I would lead you along a hidden path but mature individuals fully capable of reaching a rational decision.
Molly
May 21, 2013, 1:33:10 PM5/21/13
to "Minds Eye"
Surely, you jest.
Steven Covey (jr) wrote the current business book on trust that
includes the following summary:
High Trust
Behaviors
Low Trust Behaviors
Straight talk
Honesty, integrity, affirmation, good facts, willingness to correct
Spinning, cover up, lie, skirt issue, yes to everyone, double talk,
flatter
Demonstrate respect
Non-judgmental, appreciate, recognize, include, courtesy,
No respect, discounting, belittling, ignoring, end run, judge,
rudeness, contempt, exclude, show respect only to those who can do
something for you
Create transparency
Clear, truthful, open, integrity, authenticity, discrete
Hide/cover up, withhold information, keep secrets,
create illusions, pretend
Right wrongs
Humility, integrity, restitution, caring
intent Avoid clarity, don’t admit
or repair mistakes, cover up mistakes
Show loyalty
Be loyal to those not present, credit where credit is due,
speak of everyone respectfully, keep confidences
Backbiting/gossip, sell others out, take credit yourself, sweet-talk
people to their faces and bad-mouth behind their back
Deliver results
Results on-time/within budget, get the right things done,
make things happen, accomplish what you were hired to
do Overpromise/under-deliver, fail to deliver,
deliver on activities not results
Get better
Continuously improve, increase capability, act of
feedback Rest on laurels, deteriorate, force
every problem into your one solution
Confront reality
Take issues head on, address tough stuff directly, acknowledge the
unsaid Skirt issues/head in sand, unwilling to self examine and
correct
Clarify expectations
Disclose and reveal expectations, renegotiate if
needed Create vague and shifting
expectations, assume or don’t disclose expectations
Practice accountability
Hold yourself accountable, take responsibility for results,
communicate clearly Blame/avoid, don’t take responsibility, don’t
hold others accountable
Listen first
Listen with ears, eyes and heart, understand,
diagnose Don’t listen, speak first,
listen last; pretend listen, listen without understanding
Keep commitments
Do what you say you will, keep
confidences Don’t make
or break commitments, make vague commitments
Extend trust
Extend trust abundantly to those who earn it, or extend appropriately
based on risk,
credibility and character
Hidden
agendas, victim/villain mentality, interpersonal conflict, gaming,
give responsibility without authority
The chart got messed up in the cut and paste but you get the point.
Very basic stuff on how to treat people to either engender or breach
trust. Doesn't really address people experiencing post traumatic
stress from violence inflicted by others, or how to recover. I think
that when we think of trust, we think of the more gross forms like
violence that we inflict on one another, not the subtle forms,
especially those that rob of us our own resiliency and esteem.
Ultimately, we ourselves are responsible for the way we trust or not.
> ...
>
> read more »
Steven Covey (jr) wrote the current business book on trust that
includes the following summary:
High Trust
Behaviors
Low Trust Behaviors
Straight talk
Honesty, integrity, affirmation, good facts, willingness to correct
Spinning, cover up, lie, skirt issue, yes to everyone, double talk,
flatter
Demonstrate respect
Non-judgmental, appreciate, recognize, include, courtesy,
No respect, discounting, belittling, ignoring, end run, judge,
rudeness, contempt, exclude, show respect only to those who can do
something for you
Create transparency
Clear, truthful, open, integrity, authenticity, discrete
Hide/cover up, withhold information, keep secrets,
create illusions, pretend
Right wrongs
Humility, integrity, restitution, caring
intent Avoid clarity, don’t admit
or repair mistakes, cover up mistakes
Show loyalty
Be loyal to those not present, credit where credit is due,
speak of everyone respectfully, keep confidences
Backbiting/gossip, sell others out, take credit yourself, sweet-talk
people to their faces and bad-mouth behind their back
Deliver results
Results on-time/within budget, get the right things done,
make things happen, accomplish what you were hired to
do Overpromise/under-deliver, fail to deliver,
deliver on activities not results
Get better
Continuously improve, increase capability, act of
feedback Rest on laurels, deteriorate, force
every problem into your one solution
Confront reality
Take issues head on, address tough stuff directly, acknowledge the
unsaid Skirt issues/head in sand, unwilling to self examine and
correct
Clarify expectations
Disclose and reveal expectations, renegotiate if
needed Create vague and shifting
expectations, assume or don’t disclose expectations
Practice accountability
Hold yourself accountable, take responsibility for results,
communicate clearly Blame/avoid, don’t take responsibility, don’t
hold others accountable
Listen first
Listen with ears, eyes and heart, understand,
diagnose Don’t listen, speak first,
listen last; pretend listen, listen without understanding
Keep commitments
Do what you say you will, keep
confidences Don’t make
or break commitments, make vague commitments
Extend trust
Extend trust abundantly to those who earn it, or extend appropriately
based on risk,
credibility and character
Hidden
agendas, victim/villain mentality, interpersonal conflict, gaming,
give responsibility without authority
The chart got messed up in the cut and paste but you get the point.
Very basic stuff on how to treat people to either engender or breach
trust. Doesn't really address people experiencing post traumatic
stress from violence inflicted by others, or how to recover. I think
that when we think of trust, we think of the more gross forms like
violence that we inflict on one another, not the subtle forms,
especially those that rob of us our own resiliency and esteem.
Ultimately, we ourselves are responsible for the way we trust or not.
>
> read more »
archytas
May 21, 2013, 1:51:33 PM5/21/13
to "Minds Eye"
Part of the problem - which I think Molly gets at well - concerns our
lack of sensitivity to trust. James talks a bit about the dark side
above - the organisations we work in are often not very nice. One
argument doing the rounds concerns sociopathology - an introductory
video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd6P1Ue2aGg
We trust both too much and too little. Even people trained not to be
deluded by psychopaths generally fail - psychos are three times more
likely to convince parole boards they have or intend to reform. Our
brains change (physically) as we get older towards more trusting, yet
most of us also get more cynical from the kind of experience James
touches on. Younger people in organisations are much more likely to
believe management promises as a rule - the rest of us have seen them
vapourise more often
I am resistant to people who claim to have seen the light. This is a
general mistrust based on the long history of no change emerging from
such 'experience' and plenty of examples of con-people making this
claim. I have never met a soul, but can't deny wondering that there
'must' be more than clinging to this rock waiting for species
extinction. I am broadly materialist in that I believe our living
conditions have a lot to do with the potentials of spirituality.
Religion is control fraud for me - but this has nothing to do with
Allan on souls or RP drifting to what I think of as the long view or
even Molly's Catholicism. Such meets a basic trust criteria that it's
not being forced down my throat and is an attempt to share the
ineffable. There's a complex trust issue in religion in that it's
hard to see how religious freedom can be maintained without a
democratic, secular state (Spinoza) - so I have trust issues on
religion from religious groups seizing power (even if by ballot) and
killing what democracy we have through to revelational claims not
supported by any evidence other than testimony (which has a history of
being bollocks in every sense of the word - with no testes to cling to
one could not once give testimony). We need to move to more
fellowship and ability to act in conscience. I think we could get
quite a long way there through biology - but almost no one knows much
on this subject.
> ...
>
> read more »
lack of sensitivity to trust. James talks a bit about the dark side
above - the organisations we work in are often not very nice. One
argument doing the rounds concerns sociopathology - an introductory
video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd6P1Ue2aGg
We trust both too much and too little. Even people trained not to be
deluded by psychopaths generally fail - psychos are three times more
likely to convince parole boards they have or intend to reform. Our
brains change (physically) as we get older towards more trusting, yet
most of us also get more cynical from the kind of experience James
touches on. Younger people in organisations are much more likely to
believe management promises as a rule - the rest of us have seen them
vapourise more often
I am resistant to people who claim to have seen the light. This is a
general mistrust based on the long history of no change emerging from
such 'experience' and plenty of examples of con-people making this
claim. I have never met a soul, but can't deny wondering that there
'must' be more than clinging to this rock waiting for species
extinction. I am broadly materialist in that I believe our living
conditions have a lot to do with the potentials of spirituality.
Religion is control fraud for me - but this has nothing to do with
Allan on souls or RP drifting to what I think of as the long view or
even Molly's Catholicism. Such meets a basic trust criteria that it's
not being forced down my throat and is an attempt to share the
ineffable. There's a complex trust issue in religion in that it's
hard to see how religious freedom can be maintained without a
democratic, secular state (Spinoza) - so I have trust issues on
religion from religious groups seizing power (even if by ballot) and
killing what democracy we have through to revelational claims not
supported by any evidence other than testimony (which has a history of
being bollocks in every sense of the word - with no testes to cling to
one could not once give testimony). We need to move to more
fellowship and ability to act in conscience. I think we could get
quite a long way there through biology - but almost no one knows much
on this subject.
> >> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> >>> guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
>
> >>> Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> >>> guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
> >>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or
> >>>>> above all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better
> >>>>> versed in Hindi than I am.
>
> >>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to follow.."
>
> >>>>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them down ?
>
>
> >>>>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or
> >>>>> above all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better
> >>>>> versed in Hindi than I am.
>
> >>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to follow.."
>
> >>>>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them down ?
>
> >>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
>
> >>>>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
>
> read more »
Allan H
May 21, 2013, 3:40:26 PM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
believing in and unconscious God and pre-determinism actually makes a lot of sense it is very clear cut RP.. why do you need a rational discourse.. my question is how do you arrive at an unconscious God? have not heard it put that way before..
Allan H
May 21, 2013, 3:44:18 PM5/21/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
it seems there is a lot of the world in that.. very interesting Molly
> ...
>
> read more »
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rigs
May 21, 2013, 10:37:01 PM5/21/13
to "Minds Eye"
This sounds like passive-agressive. Is it? What in society fosters
this disorder? I thought of James being so able to identify some
obvious types but what about the interior-unspoken-unexpressed that
remains hidden? Is trust a lofty concept to maintain order and
control? How does one trust trust and who defines it? Etiquette and
courtesy tame the savage beast, as Archytas once mentioned, so does
that make them a ruse? What about the rug-pullers and apple-cart-
upsetters who have often been courageous and heroes?
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
this disorder? I thought of James being so able to identify some
obvious types but what about the interior-unspoken-unexpressed that
remains hidden? Is trust a lofty concept to maintain order and
control? How does one trust trust and who defines it? Etiquette and
courtesy tame the savage beast, as Archytas once mentioned, so does
that make them a ruse? What about the rug-pullers and apple-cart-
upsetters who have often been courageous and heroes?
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
rigs
May 21, 2013, 10:44:52 PM5/21/13
to "Minds Eye"
There is a split between the temporal and spiritual. There is the
doctrine of predetermination but it includes free will. I am not
prepared to settle the dilemma.
On May 21, 2:40 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> believing in and unconscious God and pre-determinism actually makes a lot
> of sense it is very clear cut RP.. why do you need a rational discourse..
> my question is how do you arrive at an unconscious God? have not heard
> it put that way before..
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:02 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This group is not meant for blunt admissions but for discussions regarding
> > individual beliefs and ideas. If I bluntly say that I believe in an
> > unconscious God and predeterminism , it amounts to nothing. I have to put
> > forward logic and rational discourse in support of my beliefs , and if that
> > does not convince you , so be it as I am not here to convert you to my
> > belief system.
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
doctrine of predetermination but it includes free will. I am not
prepared to settle the dilemma.
On May 21, 2:40 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> believing in and unconscious God and pre-determinism actually makes a lot
> of sense it is very clear cut RP.. why do you need a rational discourse..
> my question is how do you arrive at an unconscious God? have not heard
> it put that way before..
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:02 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This group is not meant for blunt admissions but for discussions regarding
> > individual beliefs and ideas. If I bluntly say that I believe in an
> > unconscious God and predeterminism , it amounts to nothing. I have to put
> > forward logic and rational discourse in support of my beliefs , and if that
> > does not convince you , so be it as I am not here to convert you to my
> > belief system.
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> why don't you bluntly say just what you do believe.
>
> >> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:26 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I have never talked about religion , if I have used such terminology it
> >>> is just to express myself. I have never tried to convert anybody , only
> >>> laying down my belief and it has nothing to do with religion. Examining my
> >>> beliefs from different angles is not meant to coax you but simply a method
> >>> of examination. We are here to discus our ideas , and if you think I am
> >>> talking from a book , you are mistaken. All religions believe in human
> >>> souls whereas I don't , so where is the book thumping that you are accusing
> >>> me of all the time.
>
>
> >> why don't you bluntly say just what you do believe.
>
> >> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:26 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I have never talked about religion , if I have used such terminology it
> >>> is just to express myself. I have never tried to convert anybody , only
> >>> laying down my belief and it has nothing to do with religion. Examining my
> >>> beliefs from different angles is not meant to coax you but simply a method
> >>> of examination. We are here to discus our ideas , and if you think I am
> >>> talking from a book , you are mistaken. All religions believe in human
> >>> souls whereas I don't , so where is the book thumping that you are accusing
> >>> me of all the time.
>
> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> No not at all ,,, you asked a simple question and I gave the
> >>>> reference point,, nothing more .. I also refereed to the
> >>>> guideline source for you the Hindi beliefs.. If I tried hammering home
> >>>> christian fundamentalism beliefs on you,, again and again trying to
> >>>> convince you I am right that is bible thumping,,
>
> >>>> I do know that one of the Islamic sect has beliefs relating to Zombies
> >>>> talking about their beliefs does not constitute book thumping..
> >>>> or referring to gospel of Buddha is just a reference. If you are
> >>>> showing how a religious concept works is one thing.. trying to convert
> >>>> people to your belief you are into the realm of thumping..
>
> >>>> I have my own beliefs some of which evolved from discussions right
> >>>> here on Minds Eye.. The idea of the group is to share knowledge not to
> >>>> make converts.. it is hard to explain beliefs,, examining them can be very
> >>>> interesting.. like I thought my comments relating to Zombies and souls..
> >>>> RP it is strange to find out that you are saying and thought to be
> >>>> original has already been said and part of a sects beliefs..
>
> >>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 2:22 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> When you quote the Bible it is a simple religious answer , but when
> >>>>> others refer from a book you call them book thumpers. Aren't you
> >>>>> contradicting yourself or maybe you are playing with two set of
> >>>>> rules---one for yourself and your cronies and the other for the rest of us.
>
>
> >>>> No not at all ,,, you asked a simple question and I gave the
> >>>> reference point,, nothing more .. I also refereed to the
> >>>> guideline source for you the Hindi beliefs.. If I tried hammering home
> >>>> christian fundamentalism beliefs on you,, again and again trying to
> >>>> convince you I am right that is bible thumping,,
>
> >>>> I do know that one of the Islamic sect has beliefs relating to Zombies
> >>>> talking about their beliefs does not constitute book thumping..
> >>>> or referring to gospel of Buddha is just a reference. If you are
> >>>> showing how a religious concept works is one thing.. trying to convert
> >>>> people to your belief you are into the realm of thumping..
>
> >>>> I have my own beliefs some of which evolved from discussions right
> >>>> here on Minds Eye.. The idea of the group is to share knowledge not to
> >>>> make converts.. it is hard to explain beliefs,, examining them can be very
> >>>> interesting.. like I thought my comments relating to Zombies and souls..
> >>>> RP it is strange to find out that you are saying and thought to be
> >>>> original has already been said and part of a sects beliefs..
>
> >>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 2:22 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> When you quote the Bible it is a simple religious answer , but when
> >>>>> others refer from a book you call them book thumpers. Aren't you
> >>>>> contradicting yourself or maybe you are playing with two set of
> >>>>> rules---one for yourself and your cronies and the other for the rest of us.
>
> >>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> >>>>>> guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> >>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
>
> >>>>>> Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> >>>>>> guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> >>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or
> >>>>>>>> above all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better
> >>>>>>>> versed in Hindi than I am.
>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to
> >>>>>>>>> follow.."
>
> >>>>>>>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them down
> >>>>>>>>> ?
>
>
> >>>>>>>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or
> >>>>>>>> above all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better
> >>>>>>>> versed in Hindi than I am.
>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to
> >>>>>>>>> follow.."
>
> >>>>>>>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them down
> >>>>>>>>> ?
>
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>>>>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>>>>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>>>>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>>>>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>>>>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>>>>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>>>>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>>>>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>>>>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>>>>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
RP Singh
May 21, 2013, 10:48:32 PM5/21/13
to Minds Eye
Consciousness limits the spirit , it creates boundaries , no matter how large, whereas the unconscious is limitless. It explains its omnipotence as it is the source of all thoughts , decisions and actions.The myriads of universes are upheld by that unconscious spirit and arise and vanish into it.
Allan H
May 22, 2013, 2:27:46 AM5/22/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I see your point RP will have to mull it over for a bit.. what I don't understand is how consciousness limits the spirit.. as I see it every thing is created from God's essence fore lack of a better word both conscious and unconscious are part of his being.. there is no separation.
RP Singh
May 22, 2013, 3:00:55 AM5/22/13
to Minds Eye
Consciousness is of the senses --sight , sound , etc. Senses impose a limit on the consciousness and consciousness without the senses is just so much wishful thinking. You are always conscious of something or the other , thoughts, objects , etc. No matter how infinite a consciousness it is still within boundaries and is never limitless , whereas the unconscious has no boundaries , if it sees it is through us beings and our varied perceptions. But it is there , upholding us all the time , giving us the strength to live and taking us into his fold in our deaths.
Allan H
May 22, 2013, 3:18:59 AM5/22/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
The video was very interesting actually watched it all the way trough.. In part I agree with it.. yet I do not think like all things that are absolute,, and the graphics were doctored to try and emphasis what is not always correct.
I am left wondering what the motives of the writer.
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archytas
May 22, 2013, 3:25:05 AM5/22/13
to "Minds Eye"
That fits with a lot of biology RP. The idea of humans as rational,
conscious beings is a part story overdone. Rigs gets to some of the
wider trust issues. A lot of studies were done in an attempt to
understand what happens to us in families, growing up generally - one
of the most famous was by RD Laing. One strand we can pull from this
is that families are not necessarily very nice places - but this tends
to get overblown into nothing being other than a manipulation strategy
and even linked to game theory.
Game theory is pretty dumb, perhaps because of its proof through
maths. A classic example is the prisoners' dilemma. One might think
here that I have stolen a valuable diamond and rigs is going to fence
it for me, exchanging it for a big bag of cash. The problem is that
rigs and I are vicious reprobates and suspect we will kill each other
at the exchange. We thus come up with a plan to bury the diamond and
cash hundreds of miles apart and ring each other to say where they
are. But this is dumb as I might lie to rigs, collect the cash and
keep the diamond - or vice verse. The maths on this is that it is
always best to cheat because you always keep what you had to start
with and it the other party is gullible you get the diamond and the
cash. Frankly, on such a dumb problem, even maths that gave us access
to RP's unconscious, would be useless.
I take it as read everyone can see how dumb the scenario is. For a
start neither rigs or me would want to spend the rest of our lives
with the diamond, cash and fear of the other emerging from the shadows
with an ice pick! I'm also quite sure as an ex-cop that criminal
networks do establish trust. Rigs' fencing business would suffer
reputational damage if she ripped me off - etc.
In days when milk was delivered to the door, the milkman 'trusted'
people to pay at the end of the week and people often left the cash
with the empty bottles. In other trading systems it was common to
leave blood relative hostages until the deal was complete. Trust in
fact is a complex system. Indeed, our biology has trust, cheating,
deception, selfishness, cooperation and much more built-in. The idiot
right with its vaunted selfish individual finding equilibrium in a
collectivity of dirty rotten scoundrels is as dumb as love-trust
anarchic syndicalism or the existential union of egoists.
My own feeling is we have trapped ourselves in regulation that suits
sociopathic strategies.
On 22 May, 03:48, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Consciousness limits the spirit , it creates boundaries , no matter how
> large, whereas the unconscious is limitless. It explains its omnipotence as
> it is the source of all thoughts , decisions and actions.The myriads of
> universes are upheld by that unconscious spirit and arise and vanish into
> it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > believing in and unconscious God and pre-determinism actually makes a lot
> > of sense it is very clear cut RP.. why do you need a rational discourse..
> > my question is how do you arrive at an unconscious God? have not heard
> > it put that way before..
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:02 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> This group is not meant for blunt admissions but for discussions
> >> regarding individual beliefs and ideas. If I bluntly say that I believe in
> >> an unconscious God and predeterminism , it amounts to nothing. I have to
> >> put forward logic and rational discourse in support of my beliefs , and if
> >> that does not convince you , so be it as I am not here to convert you to my
> >> belief system.
>
> ...
>
> read more »
conscious beings is a part story overdone. Rigs gets to some of the
wider trust issues. A lot of studies were done in an attempt to
understand what happens to us in families, growing up generally - one
of the most famous was by RD Laing. One strand we can pull from this
is that families are not necessarily very nice places - but this tends
to get overblown into nothing being other than a manipulation strategy
and even linked to game theory.
Game theory is pretty dumb, perhaps because of its proof through
maths. A classic example is the prisoners' dilemma. One might think
here that I have stolen a valuable diamond and rigs is going to fence
it for me, exchanging it for a big bag of cash. The problem is that
rigs and I are vicious reprobates and suspect we will kill each other
at the exchange. We thus come up with a plan to bury the diamond and
cash hundreds of miles apart and ring each other to say where they
are. But this is dumb as I might lie to rigs, collect the cash and
keep the diamond - or vice verse. The maths on this is that it is
always best to cheat because you always keep what you had to start
with and it the other party is gullible you get the diamond and the
cash. Frankly, on such a dumb problem, even maths that gave us access
to RP's unconscious, would be useless.
I take it as read everyone can see how dumb the scenario is. For a
start neither rigs or me would want to spend the rest of our lives
with the diamond, cash and fear of the other emerging from the shadows
with an ice pick! I'm also quite sure as an ex-cop that criminal
networks do establish trust. Rigs' fencing business would suffer
reputational damage if she ripped me off - etc.
In days when milk was delivered to the door, the milkman 'trusted'
people to pay at the end of the week and people often left the cash
with the empty bottles. In other trading systems it was common to
leave blood relative hostages until the deal was complete. Trust in
fact is a complex system. Indeed, our biology has trust, cheating,
deception, selfishness, cooperation and much more built-in. The idiot
right with its vaunted selfish individual finding equilibrium in a
collectivity of dirty rotten scoundrels is as dumb as love-trust
anarchic syndicalism or the existential union of egoists.
My own feeling is we have trapped ourselves in regulation that suits
sociopathic strategies.
On 22 May, 03:48, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Consciousness limits the spirit , it creates boundaries , no matter how
> large, whereas the unconscious is limitless. It explains its omnipotence as
> it is the source of all thoughts , decisions and actions.The myriads of
> universes are upheld by that unconscious spirit and arise and vanish into
> it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 1:10 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > believing in and unconscious God and pre-determinism actually makes a lot
> > of sense it is very clear cut RP.. why do you need a rational discourse..
> > my question is how do you arrive at an unconscious God? have not heard
> > it put that way before..
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:02 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> This group is not meant for blunt admissions but for discussions
> >> regarding individual beliefs and ideas. If I bluntly say that I believe in
> >> an unconscious God and predeterminism , it amounts to nothing. I have to
> >> put forward logic and rational discourse in support of my beliefs , and if
> >> that does not convince you , so be it as I am not here to convert you to my
> >> belief system.
>
> >> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> why don't you bluntly say just what you do believe.
>
> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:26 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> I have never talked about religion , if I have used such terminology it
> >>>> is just to express myself. I have never tried to convert anybody , only
> >>>> laying down my belief and it has nothing to do with religion. Examining my
> >>>> beliefs from different angles is not meant to coax you but simply a method
> >>>> of examination. We are here to discus our ideas , and if you think I am
> >>>> talking from a book , you are mistaken. All religions believe in human
> >>>> souls whereas I don't , so where is the book thumping that you are accusing
> >>>> me of all the time.
>
>
> >>> why don't you bluntly say just what you do believe.
>
> >>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:26 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> I have never talked about religion , if I have used such terminology it
> >>>> is just to express myself. I have never tried to convert anybody , only
> >>>> laying down my belief and it has nothing to do with religion. Examining my
> >>>> beliefs from different angles is not meant to coax you but simply a method
> >>>> of examination. We are here to discus our ideas , and if you think I am
> >>>> talking from a book , you are mistaken. All religions believe in human
> >>>> souls whereas I don't , so where is the book thumping that you are accusing
> >>>> me of all the time.
>
> >>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>> No not at all ,,, you asked a simple question and I gave the
> >>>>> reference point,, nothing more .. I also refereed to the
> >>>>> guideline source for you the Hindi beliefs.. If I tried hammering home
> >>>>> christian fundamentalism beliefs on you,, again and again trying to
> >>>>> convince you I am right that is bible thumping,,
>
> >>>>> I do know that one of the Islamic sect has beliefs relating to Zombies
> >>>>> talking about their beliefs does not constitute book thumping..
> >>>>> or referring to gospel of Buddha is just a reference. If you are
> >>>>> showing how a religious concept works is one thing.. trying to convert
> >>>>> people to your belief you are into the realm of thumping..
>
> >>>>> I have my own beliefs some of which evolved from discussions right
> >>>>> here on Minds Eye.. The idea of the group is to share knowledge not to
> >>>>> make converts.. it is hard to explain beliefs,, examining them can be very
> >>>>> interesting.. like I thought my comments relating to Zombies and souls..
> >>>>> RP it is strange to find out that you are saying and thought to be
> >>>>> original has already been said and part of a sects beliefs..
>
> >>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 2:22 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> When you quote the Bible it is a simple religious answer , but when
> >>>>>> others refer from a book you call them book thumpers. Aren't you
> >>>>>> contradicting yourself or maybe you are playing with two set of
> >>>>>> rules---one for yourself and your cronies and the other for the rest of us.
>
>
> >>>>> No not at all ,,, you asked a simple question and I gave the
> >>>>> reference point,, nothing more .. I also refereed to the
> >>>>> guideline source for you the Hindi beliefs.. If I tried hammering home
> >>>>> christian fundamentalism beliefs on you,, again and again trying to
> >>>>> convince you I am right that is bible thumping,,
>
> >>>>> I do know that one of the Islamic sect has beliefs relating to Zombies
> >>>>> talking about their beliefs does not constitute book thumping..
> >>>>> or referring to gospel of Buddha is just a reference. If you are
> >>>>> showing how a religious concept works is one thing.. trying to convert
> >>>>> people to your belief you are into the realm of thumping..
>
> >>>>> I have my own beliefs some of which evolved from discussions right
> >>>>> here on Minds Eye.. The idea of the group is to share knowledge not to
> >>>>> make converts.. it is hard to explain beliefs,, examining them can be very
> >>>>> interesting.. like I thought my comments relating to Zombies and souls..
> >>>>> RP it is strange to find out that you are saying and thought to be
> >>>>> original has already been said and part of a sects beliefs..
>
> >>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 2:22 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> When you quote the Bible it is a simple religious answer , but when
> >>>>>> others refer from a book you call them book thumpers. Aren't you
> >>>>>> contradicting yourself or maybe you are playing with two set of
> >>>>>> rules---one for yourself and your cronies and the other for the rest of us.
>
> >>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> >>>>>>> guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
>
> >>>>>>> Not really RP you asked a question and I gave you the simple answer
> >>>>>>> guideline are of a religious nature..
>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>> Now , aren't we being book-thumpers , Allan ?
>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or
> >>>>>>>>> above all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better
> >>>>>>>>> versed in Hindi than I am.
>
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to
> >>>>>>>>>> follow.."
>
> >>>>>>>>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them
> >>>>>>>>>> down ?
>
>
> >>>>>>>>> In the western world it basically known as the 10 commandments or
> >>>>>>>>> above all do know harm.. as for India RP I would ask vam he is far better
> >>>>>>>>> versed in Hindi than I am.
>
> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:08 PM, RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>> " the importance staying within guidelines God laid down to
> >>>>>>>>>> follow.."
>
> >>>>>>>>>> What are those guidelines and when and where did God lay them
> >>>>>>>>>> down ?
>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>>>>>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>>>>>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>>>>>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>>>>>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>>>>>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I have been thinking about trust, it seems we lose it via lies,
> >>>>>>>>>>> dishonesty and distortion of the truth. It is difficult to trust when
> >>>>>>>>>>> those a person or organizations a persons trusts are constantly violating
> >>>>>>>>>>> that trust. I seriously think that people's souls have forgotten they are
> >>>>>>>>>>> accountable for even the small dishonesty or the importance staying within
> >>>>>>>>>>> guidelines God laid down to follow.. Sad really
>
>
> read more »
Allan H
May 22, 2013, 4:34:07 AM5/22/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
interesting reference to the milkman.. ages gone bye
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Molly
May 22, 2013, 12:11:06 PM5/22/13
to "Minds Eye"
I have to agree with the trap of regulation. It does very little to
regulate, as family courts resolve nothing and prolong the agony in
most cases. But people going through them are living real lives with
real emotion (probably less reason). We all walk the path, whether it
is clear or not. Each step we take determines the next, even when
there is not path. I am a very different person than I was half a
century ago albiet with a few vague similarities to that Molly of long
ago. We learn (and unlearn) as we go. Trust, like kindness or
rudeness, generosity or greed, is just a filter we use to define our
view and responses.
> ...
>
> read more »
regulate, as family courts resolve nothing and prolong the agony in
most cases. But people going through them are living real lives with
real emotion (probably less reason). We all walk the path, whether it
is clear or not. Each step we take determines the next, even when
there is not path. I am a very different person than I was half a
century ago albiet with a few vague similarities to that Molly of long
ago. We learn (and unlearn) as we go. Trust, like kindness or
rudeness, generosity or greed, is just a filter we use to define our
view and responses.
>
> read more »
Molly
May 22, 2013, 12:11:52 PM5/22/13
to "Minds Eye"
Not sure what you mean by "This" rigs. I am hoping that RP was
kidding, not sure how to respond otherwise.
If you are referring to the Covey model, not sure how behaving in ways
that engender trust, like not engaging in gossip, or in ways that
break trust, like gossiping, is in any way passive agressive.
Measuring trust in doses would seem to me to be exhausting, as I
encounter too many people in a day. I find myself extending trust en
route, and then making a mental note later about adjusting my own
behavior to suit the situation. If I know that someone I am meeting
likes to gossip, I will take care in my responses or limit the meeting
time. Which to me just makes sense, but to someone who likes to
gossip might seem passive agressive I suppose. Which is why I say, in
the end, we ourselves determine our own behavior and ultimately our
own internal climate with thoughts and feelings.
> ...
>
> read more »
kidding, not sure how to respond otherwise.
If you are referring to the Covey model, not sure how behaving in ways
that engender trust, like not engaging in gossip, or in ways that
break trust, like gossiping, is in any way passive agressive.
Measuring trust in doses would seem to me to be exhausting, as I
encounter too many people in a day. I find myself extending trust en
route, and then making a mental note later about adjusting my own
behavior to suit the situation. If I know that someone I am meeting
likes to gossip, I will take care in my responses or limit the meeting
time. Which to me just makes sense, but to someone who likes to
gossip might seem passive agressive I suppose. Which is why I say, in
the end, we ourselves determine our own behavior and ultimately our
own internal climate with thoughts and feelings.
>
> read more »
Allan H
May 22, 2013, 2:48:53 PM5/22/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I was reading what you were saying,, I can not help but wonder if this ability to see into and react does not come from an earlier time of the soul.. the more I watch different things saying a persons personality is really the personality of the soul with almost what would appear to be a indication of soul development. The ability to work through and evolve. Think over what has been said recently I am think people only slightly modify their behavior and it seem to start from birth. (looking at my own brothers and sister none of them have ever changed their personality since we were kids,, me I was always the odd man out with a strange interest in spirituality , why no idea) but I have actually changed radically and still retained the original..
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Molly
May 22, 2013, 6:09:47 PM5/22/13
to "Minds Eye"
For me, it is difficult to put reasonable terms to the infinite.
Although I do think that the soul is a part of us and holds our
individual aspect of the infinite, like the ego holds our finite
aspect- I can't say how it has effected my life, other than I know I
feel it always and listen more closely when "hearing" it. Let those
with ears hear.
I have stopped trying to compare myself to others, and just love when
I can. I find more peace there.
> ...
>
> read more »
Although I do think that the soul is a part of us and holds our
individual aspect of the infinite, like the ego holds our finite
aspect- I can't say how it has effected my life, other than I know I
feel it always and listen more closely when "hearing" it. Let those
with ears hear.
I have stopped trying to compare myself to others, and just love when
I can. I find more peace there.
>
> read more »
rigs
May 22, 2013, 10:47:34 PM5/22/13
to "Minds Eye"
I could also play being gullible to see what kind of a bloke you
were.//Yes- read Laing's books. To me, the message was that the
mentally ill were often having an honest reaction to life-sometimes-
while the rest of the so-called normals just took the horrifics in
stride and repressed or reacted sideways. But read him decades ago-
please don't interrupt my trip through the Inferno! :-)//I think I
would make a lousey crook or a funny one- turn it into a caper.//I
think our first strategies begin at home but may or may not adapt to
subsequent settings- like boarding school, the military, etc. later
on. Some things are hard wired based on experience- others may be
genetic- but it is learned and rewarded even if the reward is
negative.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
were.//Yes- read Laing's books. To me, the message was that the
mentally ill were often having an honest reaction to life-sometimes-
while the rest of the so-called normals just took the horrifics in
stride and repressed or reacted sideways. But read him decades ago-
please don't interrupt my trip through the Inferno! :-)//I think I
would make a lousey crook or a funny one- turn it into a caper.//I
think our first strategies begin at home but may or may not adapt to
subsequent settings- like boarding school, the military, etc. later
on. Some things are hard wired based on experience- others may be
genetic- but it is learned and rewarded even if the reward is
negative.
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
rigs
May 22, 2013, 10:49:10 PM5/22/13
to "Minds Eye"
I think people will adapt to behaviors for many reasons- like a
paycheck, or diploma, etc.
paycheck, or diploma, etc.
Allan H
May 23, 2013, 2:42:31 AM5/23/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
The infinite is very difficult to come to grips with.. it can not be done if it is not examined with effort put in to understanding it,, now I do not even begin to understand ego I know it is in relationship to "I" but it always seem to lead me back the the acronym EGO = Easing God Out
Yes never read Laing but reading about him as he was existentialist he can not be all bad..
> ...
>
> read more »
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archytas
May 23, 2013, 6:20:02 PM5/23/13
to "Minds Eye"
I met him. He was a good pianist and great company. Much of what he
did was actually common sense. I might, for instance, suggest I am so
in love with rigs that I am sharpening my sword at this very moment to
enter the circles of Hell to save her soul. My cunning plan might, in
fact, be to send Allan with his pellet gun! Laing found that much
professed as love was in fact part of a control strategy. I am, in
fact, far too fond of rigs to want to stop her dancing with Dante. My
grandson enjoyed the video game without noticing the love story. He
is good at the killing for such a sensitive boy. Max loves him dearly
(strategy - turn boy to extra walk butler?)
One of the dark features of trust can be seen in such as child sexual
grooming or the Stockholm effect. Molly's not comparing herself to
others and just loving when she can seems right to me - though a good
time girl might just say the same words with another meaning! One of
the theories on autism is 'intense world theory' - rather than being
insensitive to social perception they get such far more intensely than
most of us (thus they are overwhelmed and have to compensate
internally). I suspect there are a number of categories amongst us in
terms of 'trust decisions'. Tolerance of ambiguity - as in the Neil
is looking at Gabby who is looking at Allan example - to get through
to the factual-logical is quite rare.
Very few people talk much about how they come to trust. I don't think
I would ever have signed up for a loan with an interest rate swap
contract - but many did. How did they get conned - given I could
explain the dangers in a couple of minutes? I suspect their trust was
swooned,partly because they were conned by lying script selling, but
also because their is little rational in most human decision making.
> ...
>
> read more »
did was actually common sense. I might, for instance, suggest I am so
in love with rigs that I am sharpening my sword at this very moment to
enter the circles of Hell to save her soul. My cunning plan might, in
fact, be to send Allan with his pellet gun! Laing found that much
professed as love was in fact part of a control strategy. I am, in
fact, far too fond of rigs to want to stop her dancing with Dante. My
grandson enjoyed the video game without noticing the love story. He
is good at the killing for such a sensitive boy. Max loves him dearly
(strategy - turn boy to extra walk butler?)
One of the dark features of trust can be seen in such as child sexual
grooming or the Stockholm effect. Molly's not comparing herself to
others and just loving when she can seems right to me - though a good
time girl might just say the same words with another meaning! One of
the theories on autism is 'intense world theory' - rather than being
insensitive to social perception they get such far more intensely than
most of us (thus they are overwhelmed and have to compensate
internally). I suspect there are a number of categories amongst us in
terms of 'trust decisions'. Tolerance of ambiguity - as in the Neil
is looking at Gabby who is looking at Allan example - to get through
to the factual-logical is quite rare.
Very few people talk much about how they come to trust. I don't think
I would ever have signed up for a loan with an interest rate swap
contract - but many did. How did they get conned - given I could
explain the dangers in a couple of minutes? I suspect their trust was
swooned,partly because they were conned by lying script selling, but
also because their is little rational in most human decision making.
>
> read more »
Molly
May 24, 2013, 7:45:48 AM5/24/13
to "Minds Eye"
I suppose there is a difference between trust and bad decision making,
but you are right, the difference appears to be subtle in some cases.
When our experience is deconstructing, can we trust that everything
will be alright without falling into the dark emotions attached to
memories of things gone wrong? It might be in our nature to do so, or
we might be trained at an early age to do so, and a leap of faith may
be necessary for reprogramming our first responses. Deconstruction is
part of life. So is chaos. Yet I see many crying the sky is falling
at the first sign. Seems to me a lack of trust - maybe self trust.
> ...
>
> read more »
but you are right, the difference appears to be subtle in some cases.
When our experience is deconstructing, can we trust that everything
will be alright without falling into the dark emotions attached to
memories of things gone wrong? It might be in our nature to do so, or
we might be trained at an early age to do so, and a leap of faith may
be necessary for reprogramming our first responses. Deconstruction is
part of life. So is chaos. Yet I see many crying the sky is falling
at the first sign. Seems to me a lack of trust - maybe self trust.
>
> read more »
gabbydott
May 24, 2013, 8:26:23 AM5/24/13
to minds-eye
That would have been the Hollywood version, Molly. This German Guantanamo prisoner made a better choice to have his experiences being made visible:
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/guantanamo-murat-kurnaz-geschichte-im-kino-der-mann-im-film-das-bin-ich/8234556.html
http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/guantanamo-murat-kurnaz-geschichte-im-kino-der-mann-im-film-das-bin-ich/8234556.html
> ...
>
> read more »
rigs
May 24, 2013, 8:33:41 AM5/24/13
to "Minds Eye"
Some may have been trained not to trust from the start and live out
the prophecies imposed as if in a dream. Hopefully love and education
can change the script and intercede when old grooves of thought/
response pop up. But a good deal of life/decisions look pretty
irrational in retrospect- at least for me. Perhaps the struggle/
correction is what Campbell would call a hero/heroine's quest.
the prophecies imposed as if in a dream. Hopefully love and education
can change the script and intercede when old grooves of thought/
response pop up. But a good deal of life/decisions look pretty
irrational in retrospect- at least for me. Perhaps the struggle/
correction is what Campbell would call a hero/heroine's quest.
andrew vecsey
May 24, 2013, 9:48:02 AM5/24/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Yes Molly, a very interesting observation. Children are very good at trusting. Children are also very good at being able to forgive. Perhaps it all fits together. Forgiveness keeps trust alive. When I have no reason not to trust someone I try my best to trust them. After all I might as well be positive and hopeful and assume the best instead of the worst. Like giving the benefit of the doubt. It makes more sense to me to chose positive over negative or hope over despair or good over bad, optimism over pessimism.
But I have problems with forgiving, even though I can rationalize that its best to forgive. After all we live in an imperfect world with imperfect people. And being forgiven is one of the greatest blessings that I have ever experienced. Using that line of reasoning, forgiving someone is one of the greatest gifts you can give someone. So that is what I am personally working on right now- forgiveness, not only forgiving others but also forgiving myself.
In my previous posts on "good and bad" I have wondered about the very heavy imbalance favoring the bad side that I find regarding "good and the bad" despite nature being itself so balanced. Adults seem to need a very long time to build up trust that can be so easily shattered in a few moments. Adults forget so many good things that are so worthwhile to remember, yet we are held hostage to memories of the bad experiences that would be best to forget.
Forgiveness perhaps is the key to set us free from the chains of those bad experiences and bad memories. And once freed, perhaps we can be more trusting. After all, when someone trusts us, it is difficult not to trust them back. Lifelong friendships are started by short sparks of trust that seem to open the most closed hearts.
Trust other people whenever you have no reason not to trust them. And if you do have reasons not to trust them, then forgive them.
Trust yourself unless you have a reason not to and if you do have a reason, then forgive yourself and work on yourself to build up your hope and self confidence.
Listen to your intuitions and trust them no matter how crazy they sound and no matter where they lead you. And if you end up being disappointed; then be patient, forgive and forget.
But I have problems with forgiving, even though I can rationalize that its best to forgive. After all we live in an imperfect world with imperfect people. And being forgiven is one of the greatest blessings that I have ever experienced. Using that line of reasoning, forgiving someone is one of the greatest gifts you can give someone. So that is what I am personally working on right now- forgiveness, not only forgiving others but also forgiving myself.
In my previous posts on "good and bad" I have wondered about the very heavy imbalance favoring the bad side that I find regarding "good and the bad" despite nature being itself so balanced. Adults seem to need a very long time to build up trust that can be so easily shattered in a few moments. Adults forget so many good things that are so worthwhile to remember, yet we are held hostage to memories of the bad experiences that would be best to forget.
Forgiveness perhaps is the key to set us free from the chains of those bad experiences and bad memories. And once freed, perhaps we can be more trusting. After all, when someone trusts us, it is difficult not to trust them back. Lifelong friendships are started by short sparks of trust that seem to open the most closed hearts.
Trust other people whenever you have no reason not to trust them. And if you do have reasons not to trust them, then forgive them.
Trust yourself unless you have a reason not to and if you do have a reason, then forgive yourself and work on yourself to build up your hope and self confidence.
Listen to your intuitions and trust them no matter how crazy they sound and no matter where they lead you. And if you end up being disappointed; then be patient, forgive and forget.
Molly
May 24, 2013, 10:48:17 AM5/24/13
to "Minds Eye"
You may be right rigs. that hero's quest moves us along in ways that
include our infinite aspects. I also like Andrew's insight into the
relationship between trust and forgiveness. You may be on to
something there, Andrew.
> ...
>
> read more »
include our infinite aspects. I also like Andrew's insight into the
relationship between trust and forgiveness. You may be on to
something there, Andrew.
>
> read more »
archytas
May 24, 2013, 4:35:23 PM5/24/13
to "Minds Eye"
I don't really want to imagine a Hollywood version of Gitmo Gabby. By
the end we'd believe a truth machine turned all the evil terrorists
orange. We've just had a terrorist moment in the UK - the killing of
a soldier in Woolwich (Drummer Rigby). The idiots who did it were
well known activists. There's a trust issue in even this sort of
stuff. When you can't trust politics what are you supposed to do?
The Germans should have saved us a lot of bother by protesting the
Nazis - a few did. Democracy is supposed to give voice to minority
opinion but rarely does.
Even on stuff like climate change we have big problems.The so-called
"deficit model" suggests that the public lacks certain knowledge that
if it were known properly (so closing the deficit) would lead them to
favor certain policy actions. In other words, if only you understood
the "facts" as I understand them, then you would come to share my
policy preferences.
The deficit model helps to explain why people argue so passionately
about "facts" in public debates over policies with scientific
components. If you believe that acceptance of certain scientific views
is a precondition for, or a causal factor in determining what policy
views people hold, then arguments over facts serve as political debate
by proxy.
Dan Kahan, professor of psychology at Yale Law School, has conducted
several studies of public views on climate change and finds that the
causal mechanisms of the "deficit model" actually work in reverse:
people typically "form risk perceptions that are congenial to their
values." Our political views shape how we interpret facts. On an issue
as complex as climate, there are enough data and interpretations to
offer support to almost any political agenda. Thus we have arguments
over the degree or lack of consensus among scientists, and see efforts
to delegitimise outlier positions in order to assert one true and
proper interpretation. Added to the mix is the temptation to push
"facts" beyond what science can support, which offers each side the
opportunity for legitimate critique of the excesses of their
opponents. These dynamics can (and do) go on forever.
We obviously do much the same on such matters as imperialism and
terrorism. The killing in London was a breach of trust - but I can
show the same breach in which investments made by a US university lead
to dead black bodies in the Congo. I was conned a a young man into
believing I could work virtuously for my country as a soldier - this
turned out not to be true. I deeply regret some of what I did, though
things might have been worse if it had been someone else than me. The
techniques used to bind you to comrades in arms are, of course,
propaganda.
A big problem with trust is it is so easy to manipulate. I don't
trust most people to enter argument on the basis their mind might
change.
> ...
>
> read more »
the end we'd believe a truth machine turned all the evil terrorists
orange. We've just had a terrorist moment in the UK - the killing of
a soldier in Woolwich (Drummer Rigby). The idiots who did it were
well known activists. There's a trust issue in even this sort of
stuff. When you can't trust politics what are you supposed to do?
The Germans should have saved us a lot of bother by protesting the
Nazis - a few did. Democracy is supposed to give voice to minority
opinion but rarely does.
Even on stuff like climate change we have big problems.The so-called
"deficit model" suggests that the public lacks certain knowledge that
if it were known properly (so closing the deficit) would lead them to
favor certain policy actions. In other words, if only you understood
the "facts" as I understand them, then you would come to share my
policy preferences.
The deficit model helps to explain why people argue so passionately
about "facts" in public debates over policies with scientific
components. If you believe that acceptance of certain scientific views
is a precondition for, or a causal factor in determining what policy
views people hold, then arguments over facts serve as political debate
by proxy.
Dan Kahan, professor of psychology at Yale Law School, has conducted
several studies of public views on climate change and finds that the
causal mechanisms of the "deficit model" actually work in reverse:
people typically "form risk perceptions that are congenial to their
values." Our political views shape how we interpret facts. On an issue
as complex as climate, there are enough data and interpretations to
offer support to almost any political agenda. Thus we have arguments
over the degree or lack of consensus among scientists, and see efforts
to delegitimise outlier positions in order to assert one true and
proper interpretation. Added to the mix is the temptation to push
"facts" beyond what science can support, which offers each side the
opportunity for legitimate critique of the excesses of their
opponents. These dynamics can (and do) go on forever.
We obviously do much the same on such matters as imperialism and
terrorism. The killing in London was a breach of trust - but I can
show the same breach in which investments made by a US university lead
to dead black bodies in the Congo. I was conned a a young man into
believing I could work virtuously for my country as a soldier - this
turned out not to be true. I deeply regret some of what I did, though
things might have been worse if it had been someone else than me. The
techniques used to bind you to comrades in arms are, of course,
propaganda.
A big problem with trust is it is so easy to manipulate. I don't
trust most people to enter argument on the basis their mind might
change.
>
> read more »
Allan H
May 24, 2013, 4:50:47 PM5/24/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
change is one of the most difficult things to occur ,, that is if it is for positive value.. there is a great deal of resistance by those who do not want to change ,, they would rather hide their head in the sand sayinng there is nothing I can do..
> ...
>
> read more »
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Molly
May 24, 2013, 5:38:38 PM5/24/13
to "Minds Eye"
Trust is all too often manipulated onto people who don't understand,
and there are far too many. then there are people who understand, but
allow, because they feel they are powerless do do otherwise. all of
it gives us a picture of ourselves that we either recognize or look
away from.
> ...
>
> read more »
and there are far too many. then there are people who understand, but
allow, because they feel they are powerless do do otherwise. all of
it gives us a picture of ourselves that we either recognize or look
away from.
>
> read more »
Allan H
May 25, 2013, 1:20:30 AM5/25/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
ain't that the truth
> ...
>
> read more »
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Allan H
May 25, 2013, 2:37:09 AM5/25/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
yesterday I watched a young girl fall and hurt her knee,, It hurts I know I did the same thing a few days ago still hurts.. you could see the pain in her face the it went away in a smile came over her face she picked up her scooter and headed up a ramp and off she went her mother took a different route,, must have been a race home.. my knee still hurts even though it is titanium..
Neil I may appear to be a fanatic about the soul ,, the reality of it is I am a fanatic about God have been that way as far back in my childhood as I can remember.. my soul is part of God and my connection to him.. I see know reason to change my evil ways according to edward
gabbydott
May 25, 2013, 4:12:34 AM5/25/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Yeah, it ain't.
archytas
May 25, 2013, 2:18:23 PM5/25/13
to "Minds Eye"
Lovely Gabby.
I can't other than agree Molly. I've held (as long as Allan has his
soul-god thingy) that there is far less individual about the human
that we think - Gabby mentions a bit of the German for gossip in
another thread and I doubt much human communication is much more than
this and we struggle to realise how connected with hierarchy it is.
We find ourselves working with "individuals" when we need to work with
the network. Continuing the Freudian theme, the best individuals come
from the best societies and the best societies are made by the best
individuals. Gabby's ain't it so not fits that too. We now split the
electron into holon, spinon and orbiton but still struggle to see
multiple aspects of such as trust.
On May 25, 9:12 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, it ain't.
> ...
>
> read more »
I can't other than agree Molly. I've held (as long as Allan has his
soul-god thingy) that there is far less individual about the human
that we think - Gabby mentions a bit of the German for gossip in
another thread and I doubt much human communication is much more than
this and we struggle to realise how connected with hierarchy it is.
We find ourselves working with "individuals" when we need to work with
the network. Continuing the Freudian theme, the best individuals come
from the best societies and the best societies are made by the best
individuals. Gabby's ain't it so not fits that too. We now split the
electron into holon, spinon and orbiton but still struggle to see
multiple aspects of such as trust.
On May 25, 9:12 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, it ain't.
> communi Am 25.05.2013 07:20 schrieb "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > ain't that the truth
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > ain't that the truth
>
>
> read more »
Allan H
May 25, 2013, 2:51:14 PM5/25/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
what Gabby sent was right.. what is the thing with the prisoner of war camp the US insist on keeping or at least the republicans insist on.. actually It would be fun to set up a house of horrors especially built for them.. bet in three days or less I could get them willing to resign form politics and give me all their personal money and family fortunes.. The problem is I am not allowed to do harm so sad sometimes
> ...
>
> read more »
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rigs
May 25, 2013, 5:30:49 PM5/25/13
to "Minds Eye"
You are not a very good example of a democratic society when you talk
like that Allan. No wonder it doesn't work. Found a fake bill with
anti-FDR slogans when my father was in Hollywood so the rift goes on
and on, I guess. Actually, the types in Dante's Inferno are with us
still- am down to the Florentine bankers.
like that Allan. No wonder it doesn't work. Found a fake bill with
anti-FDR slogans when my father was in Hollywood so the rift goes on
and on, I guess. Actually, the types in Dante's Inferno are with us
still- am down to the Florentine bankers.
Allan H
May 26, 2013, 4:05:47 AM5/26/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
well Rigsy they are lucky i do not tell others how to do it,, simply because it is easy enough ,,, so to be democratic I am supposed to approve of the actions of the majority of those that are raping and pillaging the government to line their pockets.. but I forget you love those ?good? guys.. defending their actions at every turn
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Molly
May 27, 2013, 8:04:29 AM5/27/13
to "Minds Eye"
Just found this in my mailbox:
"As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live." - Goethe
> ...
>
> read more »
"As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live." - Goethe
>
> read more »
archytas
Jun 7, 2013, 1:18:46 AM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
We could probably find something like that in Mein Kampf too Molly.
Andrew is on to something with the forgiveness angle. We might have
to do a lot of that when it dawns on us we've been had on a butty by
the rich.
> ...
>
> read more »
Andrew is on to something with the forgiveness angle. We might have
to do a lot of that when it dawns on us we've been had on a butty by
the rich.
>
> read more »
rigs
Jun 7, 2013, 9:49:14 AM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
The rich are enabled by the government and laws.
Allan H
Jun 7, 2013, 10:11:52 AM6/7/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Not really Rigsy -- there is a lot of corruption and immorality involved the rich for the most part are very self centered focusing mainly on their interests and not those of humanity as a whole. you can claim yo have not done it but you are riding on the shirt tails of those who have.. this action only encourages them...
the excuse of being enabled by the government and laws does not really hold water.. especially on the spiritual plane,, sorry Rigsy you have been alerted to the problem.. but do as you want
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Molly
Jun 7, 2013, 4:16:43 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
I would not go so far as to generalize about any class, race,
ethnicity, society, gender, age.... People are varied in each
category, and lumping everyone that falls into a certain category
together with all others and assigning them general attributes, well,
biased is one of the milder terms used. I know I have never liked to
be labeled or categorized. Looking back, I have hit every socio-
economic strata but that 1% in my time, and don't ever expect to be
super rich. But, that one lottery ticket a year that I buy could just
take me there as anything is possible in this crazy life. All that
money sounds like a lot of work, especially keeping it out of the
hands of the bwankers and shysters. And those guys come in all shapes
and sizes.
> ...
>
> read more »
ethnicity, society, gender, age.... People are varied in each
category, and lumping everyone that falls into a certain category
together with all others and assigning them general attributes, well,
biased is one of the milder terms used. I know I have never liked to
be labeled or categorized. Looking back, I have hit every socio-
economic strata but that 1% in my time, and don't ever expect to be
super rich. But, that one lottery ticket a year that I buy could just
take me there as anything is possible in this crazy life. All that
money sounds like a lot of work, especially keeping it out of the
hands of the bwankers and shysters. And those guys come in all shapes
and sizes.
>
> read more »
Molly
Jun 7, 2013, 4:19:13 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
manipulation of trust does seem to be prevalent, although I don't
think it is what Goethe had in mind when he made the statement.
Unless you are saying he was a Nazi.
> ...
>
> read more »
think it is what Goethe had in mind when he made the statement.
Unless you are saying he was a Nazi.
>
> read more »
James
Jun 7, 2013, 7:21:52 PM6/7/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Niccolo Machiavelli's princes and The Education of Cyrus are now on the
'someday' list. The caveat of salesmanship I think is implied but
underneath is more than manipulation but self deception, there is no
warranty against stolen merchandise in this case, maybe? I love rigsy's
narrative on books so am waiting with apprehension.
I'll leave you a definition and two new words of satire:
white mans burden - the products of his own insanity. "he came before
the court a man like any other, the victim of his own vices and the jury
was unsympathetic."
bildungstrojanner, and ignostic
I like making up ironic words that play on multiple fields for the lack
of it. I compared the two wissenshaften/science texts the week before
Gabby mentioned it, but don't tell anybody, my memory is junk and I
don't do tests well. ;-)
>> read more �
'someday' list. The caveat of salesmanship I think is implied but
underneath is more than manipulation but self deception, there is no
warranty against stolen merchandise in this case, maybe? I love rigsy's
narrative on books so am waiting with apprehension.
I'll leave you a definition and two new words of satire:
white mans burden - the products of his own insanity. "he came before
the court a man like any other, the victim of his own vices and the jury
was unsympathetic."
bildungstrojanner, and ignostic
I like making up ironic words that play on multiple fields for the lack
of it. I compared the two wissenshaften/science texts the week before
Gabby mentioned it, but don't tell anybody, my memory is junk and I
don't do tests well. ;-)
rigs
Jun 7, 2013, 8:31:40 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
And stay away from charming roofers!
rigs
Jun 7, 2013, 8:39:12 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
I doubt if America could have been the success it has been without the
rich. Yes- there have been bad apples but who built the railroads, the
cities, the factories, the war supplies, the libraries, the private
universities, the medical industry, technology,etc? Money won the
Civil War and WWII. Even Christ knew what was up- render to Caesar and
render unto God.
rich. Yes- there have been bad apples but who built the railroads, the
cities, the factories, the war supplies, the libraries, the private
universities, the medical industry, technology,etc? Money won the
Civil War and WWII. Even Christ knew what was up- render to Caesar and
render unto God.
rigs
Jun 7, 2013, 8:45:37 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
I have stalled with The Prince in the midst but Machiavelli's
Discourses deals with power of the people to rule. One has to remember
the condition of Italy and as a diplomat he knew the tricks of the
trade...deceit. I think he was more than "the means justify the ends"
though the practice continues.
Discourses deals with power of the people to rule. One has to remember
the condition of Italy and as a diplomat he knew the tricks of the
trade...deceit. I think he was more than "the means justify the ends"
though the practice continues.
archytas
Jun 7, 2013, 9:25:51 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
No thought of Goethe as a Nazi Molly. it's just that words so often
mean their exact opposite.
I've found renaissance writers difficult and rather tedious because of
style and lots of irrelevant content. There's a free paper here that
tries to bring Machiavelli to modern relevance. Some feminist writers
stress and erotic dimension in his work too. Fortune is a woman sort
of stuff.
http://www.law.kuleuven.be/romrecht/integriteit/egpa/previous-egpa-conferences/rotterdam-2008/rochet.pdf
Rigs' puts forward what we used to call Whig history on the rich - I'm
not inclined to swallow it. I have more sympathy with Molly's not
wanting to stereotype to class and the rest - but class has long been
an organising concept in biology and economics. I believe we can
organise leadership differently now and neo-liberal ideology is in the
way of this.
> ...
>
> read more »
mean their exact opposite.
I've found renaissance writers difficult and rather tedious because of
style and lots of irrelevant content. There's a free paper here that
tries to bring Machiavelli to modern relevance. Some feminist writers
stress and erotic dimension in his work too. Fortune is a woman sort
of stuff.
http://www.law.kuleuven.be/romrecht/integriteit/egpa/previous-egpa-conferences/rotterdam-2008/rochet.pdf
Rigs' puts forward what we used to call Whig history on the rich - I'm
not inclined to swallow it. I have more sympathy with Molly's not
wanting to stereotype to class and the rest - but class has long been
an organising concept in biology and economics. I believe we can
organise leadership differently now and neo-liberal ideology is in the
way of this.
>
> read more »
archytas
Jun 7, 2013, 9:37:52 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
Machiavelli defines three concepts that illuminate the basics in
managing public
affairs: fortuna, or uncertainty, virtù, or the alliance of civic
virtue and the necessary
strength to sustain and enforce a political system, and corruptio,
which is the
disappearance of civic values faced with the uncertainty of the
fortuna. In
Machiavelli’s words, corruptio does not have the modern utilitarian
meaning (i.e.
material corruption that impedes the fair distribution of contracts)
but the loss of civic
values that will permanently reconstruct the ideal of the common weal
faced with the
assaults of the fortuna. Fortuna permanently threatens the equilibrium
of the republic.
The future of the republic depends on the vitality of political life,
the vita activa, and
the sharing of civic values among citizens.
> ...
>
> read more »
managing public
affairs: fortuna, or uncertainty, virtù, or the alliance of civic
virtue and the necessary
strength to sustain and enforce a political system, and corruptio,
which is the
disappearance of civic values faced with the uncertainty of the
fortuna. In
Machiavelli’s words, corruptio does not have the modern utilitarian
meaning (i.e.
material corruption that impedes the fair distribution of contracts)
but the loss of civic
values that will permanently reconstruct the ideal of the common weal
faced with the
assaults of the fortuna. Fortuna permanently threatens the equilibrium
of the republic.
The future of the republic depends on the vitality of political life,
the vita activa, and
the sharing of civic values among citizens.
>
> read more »
archytas
Jun 7, 2013, 9:50:00 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
To avoid the constitution of vested interests, the leader must come
from the people
as Machiavelli illustrates in his Life of Castruccio Castracani
(1520), and public
servants must rotate so as to equilibrate the common good of the few
by the common
good of the many through direct civic activity. He does not want to
build a perfect
regime of social harmony, but considers that the fight between social
classes and
diverging interests is normal and the proof of an active civic life
that will make ing the
common good of the many triumph over the private good of the powerful
(GailleNikodimov and Ménissier, 2006: 274). In normal times, conflicts
are necessary as
part of the vivere politico. They do not endanger the state but
reinforce it, since no
republic can exist without passions and their organized expressions.
The renewal of
civic virtue through conflicts generates a dynamic equilibrium
distinct from an
imposed princely order
Rigs is right he was more than means justify ends.
Machiavelli’s innovation is having freed virtù in action from
Christian ethics. Action that works is
virtuous : ethics must be concerned with the end, the common good and
be disjointed
from the means. His conception of virtù is akin to the Greek metis
(intuition) and
practical wit or prudence, phronesis ...
> ...
>
> read more »
from the people
as Machiavelli illustrates in his Life of Castruccio Castracani
(1520), and public
servants must rotate so as to equilibrate the common good of the few
by the common
good of the many through direct civic activity. He does not want to
build a perfect
regime of social harmony, but considers that the fight between social
classes and
diverging interests is normal and the proof of an active civic life
that will make ing the
common good of the many triumph over the private good of the powerful
(GailleNikodimov and Ménissier, 2006: 274). In normal times, conflicts
are necessary as
part of the vivere politico. They do not endanger the state but
reinforce it, since no
republic can exist without passions and their organized expressions.
The renewal of
civic virtue through conflicts generates a dynamic equilibrium
distinct from an
imposed princely order
Rigs is right he was more than means justify ends.
Machiavelli’s innovation is having freed virtù in action from
Christian ethics. Action that works is
virtuous : ethics must be concerned with the end, the common good and
be disjointed
from the means. His conception of virtù is akin to the Greek metis
(intuition) and
practical wit or prudence, phronesis ...
>
> read more »
archytas
Jun 7, 2013, 9:55:51 PM6/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
In contemporary terms, Machiavelli’s republicanism belongs clearly to
what Sir Isaïah
Berlin has (negatively) coined “positive liberty”, as opposed to
“negative liberty”
advocated by the liberal stance since Hobbes and essentially since
Locke: liberty
consists in avoiding any hindrance to individual freedom on the part
of the state. On
the contrary, positive liberty is the capacity to act personally to
produce subjective
and collective rights. There is a connection between common good and
personal
liberty, as Skinner (1992) puts it, opposing Machiavelli to John Rawls
whose Theory
of Justice only considers individuals rights, rejecting organizing
cooperation and civic
life as an undue burden for the state.
Anyway, enough unless you want to read the article these quotes are
from. I tend to believe in positive liberty - but probably share
rigs' dread of a certain kind of state - whether one we elect or one
of (for me) the current dominance of the unelected plutocrats.
> ...
>
> read more »
what Sir Isaïah
Berlin has (negatively) coined “positive liberty”, as opposed to
“negative liberty”
advocated by the liberal stance since Hobbes and essentially since
Locke: liberty
consists in avoiding any hindrance to individual freedom on the part
of the state. On
the contrary, positive liberty is the capacity to act personally to
produce subjective
and collective rights. There is a connection between common good and
personal
liberty, as Skinner (1992) puts it, opposing Machiavelli to John Rawls
whose Theory
of Justice only considers individuals rights, rejecting organizing
cooperation and civic
life as an undue burden for the state.
Anyway, enough unless you want to read the article these quotes are
from. I tend to believe in positive liberty - but probably share
rigs' dread of a certain kind of state - whether one we elect or one
of (for me) the current dominance of the unelected plutocrats.
>
> read more »
Allan H
Jun 8, 2013, 3:59:16 AM6/8/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
aw the old cowboy trap,, Rigsy.. you have to verify what type of work each roofer does.. and do it in person good ones are hard to find and very busy.. we worked year round when I worked with Kirk and we turned down a lot of work..
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Allan H
Jun 8, 2013, 4:02:02 AM6/8/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
You need to look into the activities of a lot of the rich.. there where some that were very good and honest but many of them were no more than thieves that really did not like today give a damn about any one else other than themselves.. you like glossed over history..
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archytas
Jun 8, 2013, 6:10:33 AM6/8/13
to "Minds Eye"
In terms of organising concepts like class rigs is a conservative and
I'm an old leftie. One would hope this is no reason for us not to
charitable to each other on a personal basis. And, of course, none of
us conforms to such groups entirely. In fact I expect everyone in
this group is concerned with the collapse of civic society in
Machiavelli's terms as outlined with a few quotes above.
> ...
>
> read more »
I'm an old leftie. One would hope this is no reason for us not to
charitable to each other on a personal basis. And, of course, none of
us conforms to such groups entirely. In fact I expect everyone in
this group is concerned with the collapse of civic society in
Machiavelli's terms as outlined with a few quotes above.
>
> read more »
rigs
Jun 10, 2013, 7:49:01 AM6/10/13
to "Minds Eye"
The shoe does not fit. I would identify myself as a moderate and
independent. People assume I am a Liberal/leftie...but that is another
story.
independent. People assume I am a Liberal/leftie...but that is another
story.
Molly
Jun 10, 2013, 8:01:19 AM6/10/13
to "Minds Eye"
Love to hear it sometime.
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> read more »
archytas
Jun 13, 2013, 1:14:34 PM6/13/13
to "Minds Eye"
Class, race, religious and other shoes rarely fit rigs. I'm not
really an old leftie either.
> ...
>
> read more »
really an old leftie either.
>
> read more »
Allan H
Jun 13, 2013, 2:25:23 PM6/13/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Me I am a lefty I believe in the development of mankind not the individual or the individual greed.
I can not defend my spiritual beliefs from the right.. I do not have to defend them from the left..
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gabbydott
Jun 13, 2013, 4:28:08 PM6/13/13
to minds-eye
I tend to see the same principles operating on (leftish) solidarity and (righteous) tolerance. Like the Golden Calf that is never to grow old and wise enough to find its peace in a 70+ group, for instance, while life is spinning and spinning...
archytas
Jun 13, 2013, 8:55:29 PM6/13/13
to "Minds Eye"
There is a lot common to left and right positions - most of the
arguments of both contain the same fallacies. I mean who in their
right mind would suggest the way forward lies in creating Soviet or
Maoist Paradise? Or the pathetic road to serfdom under the world's
plutocrats? I rather like the idea of a union of free workers from
Eurasia to the UK, but the Nazis were the last to advocate that. We
talk about democracy as though there is one we can point to' Iran has
elections tomorrow and like the Soviets you can vote for a choice or
leader from a list chosen by the real government (all hard-liners, or
moderate hard-liners, or one hard-line moderate) - but were Brown-
Cameron or Obama-Romney our choices (less so in the UK as we don't
have primaries).
Deep down, the races that produce leaders are entirely unfit at - er -
producing leaders. They are as relevant as sports in producing
personalities. Anyone who can survive in our political parties learns
the political game and is thus unfit to be a representative. Left and
right are both neo-liberal and as voters we are so ignorant
psychopaths convince us more readily than decent people. There are
many alternatives given modern technology and sortition. Now we can't
even vote for a full-employment economy.
The right has long wanted freedom from government, the left government
that frees us from government we don't vote for. Maybe we all want
freedom from something else or the roads to this are not politics as
we have the stuff?
On 13 June, 21:28, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I tend to see the same principles operating on (leftish) solidarity and
> (righteous) tolerance. Like the Golden Calf that is never to grow old and
> wise enough to find its peace in a 70+ group, for instance, while life is
> spinning and spinning...
>
> 2013/6/13 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>
> in
> ...
>
> read more »
arguments of both contain the same fallacies. I mean who in their
right mind would suggest the way forward lies in creating Soviet or
Maoist Paradise? Or the pathetic road to serfdom under the world's
plutocrats? I rather like the idea of a union of free workers from
Eurasia to the UK, but the Nazis were the last to advocate that. We
talk about democracy as though there is one we can point to' Iran has
elections tomorrow and like the Soviets you can vote for a choice or
leader from a list chosen by the real government (all hard-liners, or
moderate hard-liners, or one hard-line moderate) - but were Brown-
Cameron or Obama-Romney our choices (less so in the UK as we don't
have primaries).
Deep down, the races that produce leaders are entirely unfit at - er -
producing leaders. They are as relevant as sports in producing
personalities. Anyone who can survive in our political parties learns
the political game and is thus unfit to be a representative. Left and
right are both neo-liberal and as voters we are so ignorant
psychopaths convince us more readily than decent people. There are
many alternatives given modern technology and sortition. Now we can't
even vote for a full-employment economy.
The right has long wanted freedom from government, the left government
that frees us from government we don't vote for. Maybe we all want
freedom from something else or the roads to this are not politics as
we have the stuff?
On 13 June, 21:28, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I tend to see the same principles operating on (leftish) solidarity and
> (righteous) tolerance. Like the Golden Calf that is never to grow old and
> wise enough to find its peace in a 70+ group, for instance, while life is
> spinning and spinning...
>
> in
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Me I am a lefty I believe in the development of mankind not the individual
> > or the individual greed.
> > I can not defend my spiritual beliefs from the right.. I do not have to
> > defend them from the left..
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Me I am a lefty I believe in the development of mankind not the individual
> > or the individual greed.
> > I can not defend my spiritual beliefs from the right.. I do not have to
> > defend them from the left..
>
>
> read more »
Allan H
Jun 14, 2013, 2:35:13 AM6/14/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I agree with you Gabby,, like the idea of political leaders becoming unfit,,that can apply to business and church leaders also; with rare exception,
> ...
>
> read more »
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rigs
Jun 14, 2013, 7:58:44 AM6/14/13
to "Minds Eye"
Modern technology has become "instant gratification" for the low
information voter as well as those who think they are exercising their
voice and choice in the pursuit of "freedom" as well as a vehicle for
the disruptive types who are anti-control of any sort and form. Throw
in a whacky culture, values, daily news-spin that blurs and buries
issues and you have the basis for dysfunction. In other ages, power
has exerted the same controls whether guised in the robes of tribal
hatreds, empire or religion.//Speaking of Nazis, another SS commander
has been discovered- age 94- who slipped into America on lies unlike
the scientists who were coveted by the military.// If God didn't/
doesn't exist, we would have to invent Him to retain our sanity and
refuge.
information voter as well as those who think they are exercising their
voice and choice in the pursuit of "freedom" as well as a vehicle for
the disruptive types who are anti-control of any sort and form. Throw
in a whacky culture, values, daily news-spin that blurs and buries
issues and you have the basis for dysfunction. In other ages, power
has exerted the same controls whether guised in the robes of tribal
hatreds, empire or religion.//Speaking of Nazis, another SS commander
has been discovered- age 94- who slipped into America on lies unlike
the scientists who were coveted by the military.// If God didn't/
doesn't exist, we would have to invent Him to retain our sanity and
refuge.
rigs
Jun 14, 2013, 8:03:02 AM6/14/13
to "Minds Eye"
Sounds Freudian. Blaming the leaders is like blaming parents and
doesn't pass the "ignorance is no excuse" plea.
doesn't pass the "ignorance is no excuse" plea.
archytas
Jun 14, 2013, 5:12:51 PM6/14/13
to "Minds Eye"
I take all your points rigs - maybe not the Freudian one. I've just
walked Max in the 7-acre retreat round the corner. It's getting
summer use now and this means beer cans and other rubbish - almost as
sad as much that clutters the Internet, television and film.
Rather than blaming leaders (though literature on them as psychopaths
is legion) I want us to understand the system in which they emerge. I
think we could approach it from a number of 'points of origin'.
Biology is my first - essentially knowing more about what the
biological individual is in co-evolution (we consider 21 forms of
individual in the tripartite view). There is some scientific
sociology - social epidemiology (Richard Wilkinson) that tells us big
disparities in wealth within our societies is bad for health. I
generally doubt psychology and economics is largely a scholasticism of
the rich. Brain science is getting us somewhere, but is often over-
hyped. We need a wider systems theory (which would include art and
literature) - my sense of this is it would be about creating workable
democracy and not put up with the usual excuses given for us not to be
able to do the decent thing or swallow the latest old promises from
left or right.
Another place to start is in thinking what you or I (generally) would
or could do if we occupied a position like President or Chancellor.
Our current Chancellor (Osbourne) is a rich time-waster (Toff) with a
third-class degree in history and one wonders what role he could play
in economic discussion. But what advice would you or I get and how
would we dare go against it or try anything radical? I suspect we'd
be presented with a spreadsheet offering little real flexibility. No
politician anywhere in the world is offering a real Plan B. I'm
probably better trained in the subject area than you, but guess this
would make little, if any, practical difference in the power game. I
suspect we'd both be even worse if we'd been routinised through what's
needed to be done to get political power! The point of wondering what
anyone would do in power is really to build ideas of what power
practice is and rid ourselves of some of the dafter ideology involved
about leadership. Our leaders generally look like nodding donkeys of
the Establishment and in exasperation we might try the same strategy
and sing from the hymn-sheets we were given.
I generally think we need less of a very different type of government
and a key area for change concerns crime and corruption. Underlying
the change we clearly need is the 'deficit theory' of bringing people
up to knowledge speed to be able to make democratic decisions. I see
this as a hopeless cause and we should focus on the form of leadership
instead. Real technology, as opposed to Apple and Samsung toys could
give us a transparency that could change the form of leadership
(Barbara Kellerman's 'The End of Leadership' is a good introduction to
our fixations - you can get the drift free at Amazon).
I tend to think of god after a fair, secular order (very Spinoza) and
accept being here clinging to this rock is weird enough to leave
religion in our lives - if preferably out of mine if I have to profess
belief in talking snakes or locking girls up at 13.
> ...
>
> read more »
walked Max in the 7-acre retreat round the corner. It's getting
summer use now and this means beer cans and other rubbish - almost as
sad as much that clutters the Internet, television and film.
Rather than blaming leaders (though literature on them as psychopaths
is legion) I want us to understand the system in which they emerge. I
think we could approach it from a number of 'points of origin'.
Biology is my first - essentially knowing more about what the
biological individual is in co-evolution (we consider 21 forms of
individual in the tripartite view). There is some scientific
sociology - social epidemiology (Richard Wilkinson) that tells us big
disparities in wealth within our societies is bad for health. I
generally doubt psychology and economics is largely a scholasticism of
the rich. Brain science is getting us somewhere, but is often over-
hyped. We need a wider systems theory (which would include art and
literature) - my sense of this is it would be about creating workable
democracy and not put up with the usual excuses given for us not to be
able to do the decent thing or swallow the latest old promises from
left or right.
Another place to start is in thinking what you or I (generally) would
or could do if we occupied a position like President or Chancellor.
Our current Chancellor (Osbourne) is a rich time-waster (Toff) with a
third-class degree in history and one wonders what role he could play
in economic discussion. But what advice would you or I get and how
would we dare go against it or try anything radical? I suspect we'd
be presented with a spreadsheet offering little real flexibility. No
politician anywhere in the world is offering a real Plan B. I'm
probably better trained in the subject area than you, but guess this
would make little, if any, practical difference in the power game. I
suspect we'd both be even worse if we'd been routinised through what's
needed to be done to get political power! The point of wondering what
anyone would do in power is really to build ideas of what power
practice is and rid ourselves of some of the dafter ideology involved
about leadership. Our leaders generally look like nodding donkeys of
the Establishment and in exasperation we might try the same strategy
and sing from the hymn-sheets we were given.
I generally think we need less of a very different type of government
and a key area for change concerns crime and corruption. Underlying
the change we clearly need is the 'deficit theory' of bringing people
up to knowledge speed to be able to make democratic decisions. I see
this as a hopeless cause and we should focus on the form of leadership
instead. Real technology, as opposed to Apple and Samsung toys could
give us a transparency that could change the form of leadership
(Barbara Kellerman's 'The End of Leadership' is a good introduction to
our fixations - you can get the drift free at Amazon).
I tend to think of god after a fair, secular order (very Spinoza) and
accept being here clinging to this rock is weird enough to leave
religion in our lives - if preferably out of mine if I have to profess
belief in talking snakes or locking girls up at 13.
>
> read more »
Allan H
Jun 15, 2013, 3:51:29 AM6/15/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Just a thought Neil as you walk Max why not pick up some of the litter in gratitude for having 7 acres to walk Max in? I know stupid..
why not challenge the history degree guy ans being unfit for the post?? after all is that not what a democracy is supposed to be for?
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rigs
Jun 15, 2013, 8:00:08 AM6/15/13
to "Minds Eye"
Why doesn't the city have "No Littering/Loitering" laws? :-)
Strange that with free education and civil freedoms, so many problems
remain. Many of my parent's generation were glad to finish highschool
but they were cut from a different cloth of character.
Strange that with free education and civil freedoms, so many problems
remain. Many of my parent's generation were glad to finish highschool
but they were cut from a different cloth of character.
Allan H
Jun 15, 2013, 9:36:12 AM6/15/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
simply because people do not obey the law or the law does not apply to them,
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Don Johnson
Jun 16, 2013, 9:08:55 AM6/16/13
to Minds Eye
I think a good start would be starving the beast. Force government to spend less because we refuse to pay more. Slowly chip away at he beast and begin eliminating the more odious government agencies. The IRS comes to mind. Not that I think this could ever actually happen but I can fantasize can't I? We have politicians that have espoused such notions(Rand Paul, Ron Paul, Ted Cruz) but nobody, even them really, thinks it could happen. If we get a VAT tax it will be on top of all the other taxes we already pay instead of in place of.
Arch have you read Albert Jay Nock's "Our Enemy, The State"? I was just reading about this book and then found it on the net free. http://mises.org/etexts/ourenemy.pdf The guy predicted the future before George Orwell's 1984. Scary and sad.
Also, another author I've discovered that writes books right up your alley is Barbara Oakley. Most recent effort is something called "Pathological Altruism"(I can't afford it) but something you said below reminded me of "Evil Genes" a treatise on the neurology and psychology of evil geniuses and the author's own sister. She's an interesting gal(Barbara, not her sister) and I like the way she writes.
I've pretty much resigned myself to the New World Order. I've "gotten in line" as it were. I may not believe it's the right system for the path to prosperity but I'm not fool enough to pass on the goodles being offered out of some altruistic notion of purity or even pride. I've been beaten. My side lost and we're well past the point of no return now. I don't know why I continue to read stuff like "Our Enemy, The State" it's like self flagellation. O what we COULD have been if we weren't all such sheep jumping of the cliff.
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