We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to teach something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should be teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days. It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such decline.
I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only thing."
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote: > Absolutely...
> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, > > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> > On Apr 16, 3:03 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Science... inclusive of Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry n Biology.
> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but > ill still > > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem, of > this > > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really > dissappointed > > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in trying > to make > > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i can > > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was > only after > > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came > like a > > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding me > in > > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but giving > time to > > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I think > it'll > > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger generation.. I > think.. > > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own time..
> > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM, pol.science kid < > r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > > > > > Hey the link worked for me...
> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:13 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> > wrote:
> > > > > >> I'm not sure aezen is functional Molly.
> > > > > >> On Apr 16, 12:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> > This link is not functional.
> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I > have taken > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become > self-aware. > > > > > >> They do > > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is > moral or that > > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the demands > of the > > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or > denial of > > > > > >> medical > > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families from > their > > > > > >> homes as > > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with > one’s inner > > > > > >> self. > > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in authority > do not > > > > > >> want > > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and > where we > > > > > >> should go. > > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power. > And they > > > > > >> know > > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from > the radical > > > > > >> evil > > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The capacity > to think > > > > > >> is the > > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks > to impose > > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a huge difference, as Socrates > > > > > >> understood, > > > > > >> > > between teaching people what to think and teaching them how > to think. > > > > > >> Those > > > > > >> > > who are endowed with a moral conscience refuse to commit > crimes, even > > > > > >> those > > > > > >> > > sanctioned by the corporate state, because they do not in > the end > > > > > >> want to > > > > > >> > > live with criminals—themselves.
> > > > > >> > > Advertisement > > > > > >> > > “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than, > being one, to > > > > > >> be at > > > > > >> > > odds with myself,” Socrates said. [...]"
> > > > > >> > > On Thursday, 12 April 2012 15:43:55 UTC+1, pol.science kid > wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village ... > we were > > > > > >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while > doing the > > > > > >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand > education.. clearly > > > > > >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in > the rural > > > > > >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their > time...teachers > > > > > >> hate > > > > > >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is bitching... > the > > > > > >> situation > > > > > >> > > > is pretty bad.. those who can do get out.. actually > primary > > > > > >> education > > > > > >> > > > in my country is pretty beat up... now in know most of > you are from > > > > > >> > > > the 'West'.. Sounds weird when i say it like that.. we're > frequently > > > > > >> > > > told that primary education in the west is quite o.k. > .... in fact > > > > > >> > > > good.. What do you guys think?.. Also... how do you define > > > > > >> > > > education..i almost hate the term by now.. get to hear it > so much > > > > > >> with > > > > > >> > > > people having no idea of what they mean.... what do you > think..?
> We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to teach > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should be > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days. > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such > decline.
I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite present across the board. What we have is a society composed of psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard. But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only > thing."
I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents, as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that attitude who can take serious questions into account.
We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper Vigilance.
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Absolutely...
>> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
>> > On Apr 16, 3:03 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Science... inclusive of Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry n Biology.
>> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but >> ill still >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem, of >> this >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really >> dissappointed >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in trying >> to make >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i can >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was >> only after >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came >> like a >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding me >> in >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but giving >> time to >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I think >> it'll >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger generation.. I >> think.. >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own >> > > > > time..
>> > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM, pol.science kid < >> r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> > > > > > Hey the link worked for me...
>> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:13 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> >> wrote:
>> > > > > >> I'm not sure aezen is functional Molly.
>> > > > > >> On Apr 16, 12:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > > >> > This link is not functional.
>> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I >> have taken >> > > > > >> the >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
>> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become >> self-aware. >> > > > > >> They do >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is >> moral or that >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the demands >> of the >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or >> denial of >> > > > > >> medical >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families from >> their >> > > > > >> homes as >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with >> one’s inner >> > > > > >> self. >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in authority >> do not >> > > > > >> want >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and >> where we >> > > > > >> should go. >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power. >> And they >> > > > > >> know >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from >> the radical >> > > > > >> evil >> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The capacity >> to think >> > > > > >> is the >> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks >> to impose >> > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a huge difference, as Socrates >> > > > > >> understood, >> > > > > >> > > between teaching people what to think and teaching them how >> to think. >> > > > > >> Those >> > > > > >> > > who are endowed with a moral conscience refuse to commit >> crimes, even >> > > > > >> those >> > > > > >> > > sanctioned by the corporate state, because they do not in >> the end >> > > > > >> want to >> > > > > >> > > live with criminals—themselves.
>> > > > > >> > > Advertisement >> > > > > >> > > “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than, >> being one, to >> > > > > >> be at >> > > > > >> > > odds with myself,” Socrates said. [...]"
>> > > > > >> > > On Thursday, 12 April 2012 15:43:55 UTC+1, pol.science kid >> wrote:
>> > > > > >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village ... >> we were >> > > > > >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while >> doing the >> > > > > >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand >> education.. clearly >> > > > > >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in >> the rural >> > > > > >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their >> time...teachers >> > > > > >> hate >> > > > > >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is bitching... >> the >> > > > > >> situation >> > > > > >> > > > is pretty bad.. those who can do get out.. actually >> primary >> > > > > >> education >> > > > > >> > > > in my country is pretty beat up... now in know most of >> you are from >> > > > > >> > > > the 'West'.. Sounds weird when i say it like that.. we're >> frequently >> > > > > >> > > > told that primary education in the west is quite o.k. >> .... in fact >> > > > > >> > > > good.. What do you guys think?.. Also... how do you >> > > > > >> > > > define >> > > > > >> > > > education..i almost hate the term by now.. get to hear it >> so much >> > > > > >> with >> > > > > >> > > > people having no idea of what they mean.... what do you >> think..?
I watched a program on the mid evil mind and how they view things.. one of the things that was looked at education and part of it involved islam ,, I always knew that number system was arabic in origin what i found interesting is their interest in the ancient philosophers and mathematics as well as other sciences,, but they did not give much detail on that end..
My question is what happened to islam that it stopped its interest science and mathematics is one of the truly pure sciences it seems all that islam It seems there is no interest in harmony and co-existence is interested in is murder and forcing people to live their set of rules which is contrary to western law. Allan
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:28 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote: > The education system has become a means of sorting out the population > and not necessarily a government scam anymore than one that eases the > selections of politics, business, society and so on. It was probably > tidier in the Middle Ages with an overall system of belief and > practice.
> On Apr 15, 10:36 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I'm struck that universal education has failed us. I'd go for > > deschooling and have education after 14 voluntary and much more > > related to practice (not necessarily work). Current university > > programmes should be available on television and available free with > > Internet supervision from university hubs where academics work in the > > community and social and sports events are also civic rather than > > separated as now. Education is currently a government scam and an > > export scam.
> > On Apr 15, 3:23 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I oscillate between visionary and lunatic fringe. If one liners paid > > > the bills I'd be a millionaire, the exercise comes in the unpacking so > > > a wee bit of sarcasm may be in order. Thanks Vam ;-)
> > > On 4/15/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Facebook has "Like", Twitter would allow "Retweet", and I could > re-pin > > > > on Pinterest ...
> > > > Let's say, I am doing all three now !
> > > > On Apr 15, 8:57 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> It is helpful to have an idea of process and structure and it seems > to > > > >> me you are both talking about a qualitative/individual aspect to > > > >> education. This is an important focus, I think all else follows from > > > >> the challenges to success to the contributions to society- every > last > > > >> ounce of potential is in the individual. All else is logistics of > > > >> scale, systematization, and mechanization.
> > > >> On 4/14/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > Good. But my response has nothing to do eastern or western > anything.
> > > >> > It's me. I regard any education as nothing if not leading to the > > > >> > evolution of something within me which gives a me perspective to > world > > > >> > and life, a values system I can touch to know what the thing or > matter > > > >> > before me means, to me.
> > > >> > That should leave all the bubbles with you. And the yeast...
> > > >> > On Apr 14, 8:49 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> It looks you took Ash's mixing pot image too literal, Vam. You > don't > > > >> >> bring > > > >> >> order into a mixing pot by sequencing bubble terms - add some > yeast if > > > >> >> you > > > >> >> want to create bubbles and get your new order!
> > > >> >> If wisdom is what you wish to attain, you will not be able to > achieve > > > >> >> your > > > >> >> goal without having taken good care of your critical eye, for it > is the > > > >> >> root that prevents you from being blinded.
> > > >> >> Education does not deliver knowledge or facts - Google or my > newspaper > > > >> >> does > > > >> >> that. In a wider sense they also educate me, but more in the > sense of I > > > >> >> am > > > >> >> using their services with the intention to get access to > information > > > >> >> and > > > >> >> not in the sense that I wish to get formed in their image.
> > > >> >> I see a big difference in eastern and western understanding of > what > > > >> >> education means.
> > > >> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> >> > Education, leading to some wisdom in which our critical view > may take > > > >> >> > root, takes time... yes, Knowledge >>> Attitude >>> > Application >>> > > > >> >> > Skills involves a process of incubation, and Time.
> > > >> >> > Now, the time required for specific knowledge-to-skill > acquisition > > > >> >> > process to complete differs with different people, for a > variety of > > > >> >> > reasons and factors involved.
> > > >> >> > So, the society - education industry - only promises to > deliver the > > > >> >> > knowledge, leaving our any committment to orienting the > student's > > > >> >> > attitude, willing to apply and learn from it, and its > maturation into > > > >> >> > an integrated perspective and life skills.
> > > >> >> > The education just delivers the knowledge, the " facts," to > meet a > > > >> >> > schedule. What a stated " fact " means, in association with > others > > > >> >> > stated and unstated, is upto the student to discover.
> > > >> >> > It may happen tommorow, take a lifetime, or may never emerge !
> > > >> >> > On Apr 14, 3:01 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> >> > > I think education is a mixing pot. Remove the social factors > and I > > > >> >> > > think US public education is good, here in the states we > believe in > > > >> >> > > solving social problems by expanding the prison system. o.0 > The > > > >> >> > > solutions I keep hearing from people in the past year are > bizarre, > > > >> >> > > vigilante militia with public executions sort of stuff. It > makes me > > > >> >> > > wonder if it's a meme I'm missing or something. Anyway.. > back to > > > >> >> > > topic.
> > > >> >> > > Who has the attitude that it is a waste of time: kids, > parents, > > > >> >> > > teachers? I imagine modernizing a largely rural or isolated > > > >> >> > > population > > > >> >> > > would have some resistance, I'd say give it a few > generations to > > > >> >> > > get > > > >> >> > > going and put a lot of effort in recycling their traditional > > > >> >> > > community > > > >> >> > > resources. If it is a boilerplate political maneuver there > is still > > > >> >> > > social gain but I would worry about increasing resentment and > > > >> >> > > culture > > > >> >> > > clash. The roots of education predate and transcend > institutional > > > >> >> > > bureaucracy and the primary factors revolve around family and > > > >> >> > > community, a progressive surge could propel innovative > strategies > > > >> >> > > but > > > >> >> > > I think it also could decimate a culture or weaken it's > ability to > > > >> >> > > adapt and outpace growing pains/challenges.
> > > >> >> > > This is an interesting topic pol, more observations please.
> > > >> >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village ... > we were > > > >> >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while > doing the > > > >> >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand education.. > > > >> >> > > > clearly > > > >> >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in the > rural > > > >> >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their > time...teachers > > > >> >> > > > hate > > > >> >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is bitching... > the > > > >> >> > > > situation > > > >> >> > > > is pretty bad.. those who can do get out.. actually primary > > > >> >> > > > education > > > >> >> > > > in my country is pretty beat up... now in know most of you > are > > > >> >> > > > from > > > >> >> > > > the 'West'.. Sounds weird when i say it like that.. we're > > > >> >> > > > frequently > > > >> >> > > > told that primary education in the west is quite o.k. .... > in > > > >> >> > > > fact > > > >> >> > > > good.. What do you guys think?.. Also... how do you define > > > >> >> > > > education..i almost hate the term by now.. get to hear it > so much > > > >> >> > > > with > > > >> >> > > > people having no idea of what they mean.... what do you > think..?
> > > -- > > > Please do not put me on forwarding lists or submit my address to cute > > > online greetings or anything else for that matter. If you must, please > > > forward me in BCC and send me a link to cute greetings. Many thanks!- > Hide quoted text -
I think the internet is a great place for education.. and i think all basic education should be free especially the "3 R's" "Reading, Riting an Rithmatic" (Sorry could resist) There is a lot of information out there and it might be beneficial to have a location (I have not looked) for curriculum for basic education and also based on interest one designed to bring out natural talent... IMO one of the greatest downfalls of american education is its emphasis on competitive sports at taxpayer expense.. Sports should have nothing to do with education.. and takes away from learning, creating a two class society.. there is nothing wrong with sports but it can be done out side of school.. the taxpayer should not have to support the promotion of major league sports like football and basketball.
Mathematics and the sciences should be supported to the same extreme sports are today. "lol" maybe the would be a much higher form of couch potato.. I see basketball being played out side in public play ground to a great extent. Over here in the Netherlands I see american style football (not soccer) being played by people who have as a club bought their own gear.. (not taxpayer supported ) and neither is football (soccer) taxpayer supported it is all privately funded.. It seems all of the kids (boys and girls) know how to play football or some other sport.. I wonder how the american high school girls would stand up against field hockey scares the hell out of me when I watch it on TV.. The real question is why do taxpayers have to pay for competitive sports instead of education? Allan
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 5:06 AM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and > > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base > > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to > teach > > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and > > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down > > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should > be > > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more > > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain > > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days. > > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such > > decline.
> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the > impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society > not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or > else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off > the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations > and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section > going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying > socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and > familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite > present across the board. What we have is a society composed of > psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly > aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in > environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to > human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard. > But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach > solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive > > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only > > thing."
> I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents, > as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge > with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the > mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in > both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a > wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic > oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily > justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding > attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social > reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is > what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded > tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that > attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put > forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper > Vigilance.
> > dj
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Absolutely...
> >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, > >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but > >> ill still > >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem, > of > >> this > >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really > >> dissappointed > >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in > trying > >> to make > >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i > can > >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was > >> only after > >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came > >> like a > >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding > me > >> in > >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but > giving > >> time to > >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I > think > >> it'll > >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger > generation.. I > >> think.. > >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own > >> > > > > time..
> >> > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM, pol.science kid < > >> r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> > > > > > Hey the link worked for me...
> >> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:13 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> > >> wrote:
> >> > > > > >> I'm not sure aezen is functional Molly.
> >> > > > > >> On Apr 16, 12:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > This link is not functional.
> >> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I > >> have taken > >> > > > > >> the > >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
> >> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become > >> self-aware. > >> > > > > >> They do > >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is > >> moral or that > >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the > demands > >> of the > >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or > >> denial of > >> > > > > >> medical > >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families > from > >> their > >> > > > > >> homes as > >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with > >> one’s inner > >> > > > > >> self. > >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in > authority > >> do not > >> > > > > >> want > >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and > >> where we > >> > > > > >> should go. > >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power. > >> And they > >> > > > > >> know > >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from > >> the radical > >> > > > > >> evil > >> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The > capacity > >> to think > >> > > > > >> is the > >> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks > >> to impose > >> > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a huge difference, as > Socrates > >> > > > > >> understood, > >> > > > > >> > > between teaching people what to think and teaching them > how > >> to think. > >> > > > > >> Those > >> > > > > >> > > who are endowed with a moral conscience refuse to commit > >> crimes, even > >> > > > > >> those > >> > > > > >> > > sanctioned by the corporate state, because they do not in > >> the end > >> > > > > >> want to > >> > > > > >> > > live with criminals—themselves.
> >> > > > > >> > > Advertisement > >> > > > > >> > > “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than, > >> being one, to > >> > > > > >> be at > >> > > > > >> > > odds with myself,” Socrates said. [...]"
> >> > > > > >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village > ... > >> we were > >> > > > > >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while > >> doing the > >> > > > > >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt
I agree with you that the basic problem is this disconnect between what is being taught and the real deal,so to say. Well, i think it is necessary to place the subject in some context and and not teach it in isolation. And for kids the teachers need to do that first. See, ill give you a first hand experience. Like i said before, i feel my school learning has been zero. But , i left math and science in my higher classes and opted for humanities. i felt i could do better, in humanities. It was fine..only as my reading and perception grows and the ability to place things in a larger context. Sometimes i read some thing related to science and i think.. i never saw it like that. And even wish i had not left science, which brings me to another point, they should make for better interdisciplinary options in higher classes. Which they dont in my country.i dont know about your country. But to continue what i was saying. Somehow.this learning is alienating(school level). we need a living engagement.Of course these divisions are for our convenience and we should know that.Speaking of what should be taught , i feel in schools there is a need to place religion in a sociological context. talk about it scientifically. My country is filled with superstitious and religious people.But to see orhtodoxy in someone my age is a revolting thought to me. I have a lot of respect for mathematicians . since my math isnt great. I used to think theyre out of this world. Well i know this top level gold medal math/physics grad student. Who is superstitious, communal and holds odd notions. Now ive tried to reason with this person, who holds these strange communal notions about muslims. No use. And i think to myself.. dude..where does all your reasoning power go.Actually i know many such people. Also one more thing i feel is that competition is not the answer. I think this will re-enforce this already rote learning , merit obsession. Focus needs to go in framing these methods. What these people think is that you can only shift between easy and difficult. Thats giving no credit to the rationalizing ability of the student. To get better results you need to frame better questions. Putting across good questions is top priority. One needs to know what to you want to question , that will orient the identification of merit. not the simple fact based questions we are fed. Well in our education industry the checking of answer scripts is corruption based. Many sheets go unchecked and are marked randomly by undertrained teachers. This is also true for university level. I can go on and on. But ill stop here.
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 5:20 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to teach > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should be > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days. > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such > decline.
> I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only > thing."
> dj
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Absolutely...
>> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
>> > On Apr 16, 3:03 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Science... inclusive of Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry n Biology.
>> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but >> ill still >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem, of >> this >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really >> dissappointed >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in trying >> to make >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i can >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was >> only after >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came >> like a >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding >> me in >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but >> giving time to >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I think >> it'll >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger generation.. >> I think.. >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own >> time..
>> > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM, pol.science kid < >> r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> > > > > > Hey the link worked for me...
>> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:13 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> >> wrote:
>> > > > > >> I'm not sure aezen is functional Molly.
>> > > > > >> On Apr 16, 12:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > > > >> > This link is not functional.
>> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I >> have taken >> > > > > >> the >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
>> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become >> self-aware. >> > > > > >> They do >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is >> moral or that >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the >> demands of the >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or >> denial of >> > > > > >> medical >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families >> from their >> > > > > >> homes as >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with >> one’s inner >> > > > > >> self. >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in >> authority do not >> > > > > >> want >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and >> where we >> > > > > >> should go. >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power. >> And they >> > > > > >> know >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from >> the radical >> > > > > >> evil >> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The capacity >> to think >> > > > > >> is the >> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks >> to impose >> > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a huge difference, as Socrates >> > > > > >> understood, >> > > > > >> > > between teaching people what to think and teaching them >> how to think. >> > > > > >> Those >> > > > > >> > > who are endowed with a moral conscience refuse to commit >> crimes, even >> > > > > >> those >> > > > > >> > > sanctioned by the corporate state, because they do not in >> the end >> > > > > >> want to >> > > > > >> > > live with criminals—themselves.
>> > > > > >> > > Advertisement >> > > > > >> > > “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than, >> being one, to >> > > > > >> be at >> > > > > >> > > odds with myself,” Socrates said. [...]"
>> > > > > >> > > On Thursday, 12 April 2012 15:43:55 UTC+1, pol.science kid >> wrote:
>> > > > > >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village ... >> we were >> > > > > >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while >> doing the >> > > > > >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand >> education.. clearly >> > > > > >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in >> the rural >> > > > > >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their >> time...teachers >> > > > > >> hate >> > > > > >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is bitching... >> the >> > > > > >> situation >> > > > > >> > > > is pretty bad.. those who can do get out.. actually >> primary >> > > > > >> education >> > > > > >> > > > in my country is pretty beat up... now in know most of >> you are from >> > > > > >> > > > the 'West'.. Sounds weird when i say it like that.. >> we're frequently >> > > > > >> > > > told that primary education in the west is quite o.k. >> .... in fact >> > > > > >> > > > good.. What do you guys think?.. Also... how do you >> define >> > > > > >> > > > education..i almost hate the term by now.. get to hear >> it so much >> > > > > >> with >> > > > > >> > > > people having no idea of what they mean.... what do you >> think..?
Poly the one thing i wish I understood better is the Math sciences. I can not tell you why but I just wish I had a much deeper understanding beyond 1 + 1 = 2.. at your age it is time to learn it,, the humanities you are confronted with every day and all beliefs are based of superstition but to tell a person that there beliefs are based off superstition good luck .. That would be like telling the Navajo people their people did not come out of a cave in the ground (because they did).
My beliefs could easily pass for something based on myth but for me they are real enough that no logical argument will change them. How would I know your logical argument is not based of a mythical assumption (sometimes it better to understand than be understood.) India has a very long and ancient history of dealing with spirituality and that is to be admired I read part of the Vegas? interesting I know they ingested some drink, what ever it was it was one hell of a batch of 'kick a poo juice' what ever it was.. and I know drugs are commonly used there for spiritual enlightenment,, right or wrong I do no know.. Yet it seems there are some parts of the world are very prone spiritual enlightenment.. India is one,, the south western part of the americas is another, now the truth is i am not sure about the middle east even though it is the starting point of 3 major religions.. something seems lacking,, Allan
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:16 AM, pol.science kid <r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
> I agree with you that the basic problem is this disconnect between what is > being taught and the real deal,so to say. Well, i think it is necessary to > place the subject in some context and and not teach it in isolation. And > for kids the teachers need to do that first. See, ill give you a first hand > experience. Like i said before, i feel my school learning has been zero. > But , i left math and science in my higher classes and opted for > humanities. i felt i could do better, in humanities. It was fine..only as > my reading and perception grows and the ability to place things in a larger > context. Sometimes i read some thing related to science and i think.. i > never saw it like that. And even wish i had not left science, which brings > me to another point, they should make for better interdisciplinary options > in higher classes. Which they dont in my country.i dont know about your > country. But to continue what i was saying. Somehow.this learning is > alienating(school level). we need a living engagement.Of course these > divisions are for our convenience and we should know that.Speaking of what > should be taught , i feel in schools there is a need to place religion in a > sociological context. talk about it scientifically. My country is filled > with superstitious and religious people.But to see orhtodoxy in someone my > age is a revolting thought to me. I have a lot of respect for > mathematicians . since my math isnt great. I used to think theyre out of > this world. Well i know this top level gold medal math/physics grad > student. Who is superstitious, communal and holds odd notions. Now ive > tried to reason with this person, who holds these strange communal notions > about muslims. No use. And i think to myself.. dude..where does all your > reasoning power go.Actually i know many such people. Also one more thing i > feel is that competition is not the answer. I think this will re-enforce > this already rote learning , merit obsession. Focus needs to go in framing > these methods. What these people think is that you can only shift between > easy and difficult. Thats giving no credit to the rationalizing ability of > the student. To get better results you need to frame better questions. > Putting across good questions is top priority. One needs to know what to > you want to question , that will orient the identification of merit. not > the simple fact based questions we are fed. Well in our education industry > the checking of answer scripts is corruption based. Many sheets go > unchecked and are marked randomly by undertrained teachers. This is also > true for university level. I can go on and on. But ill stop here.
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 5:20 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and >> current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base >> courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to teach >> something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and >> Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down >> school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should be >> teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more >> competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain >> excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days. >> It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such >> decline.
>> I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive >> sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only >> thing."
>> dj
>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Absolutely...
>>> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, >>> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
>>> > On Apr 16, 3:03 pm, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > Science... inclusive of Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry n Biology.
>>> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but >>> ill still >>> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem, >>> of this >>> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really >>> dissappointed >>> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in >>> trying to make >>> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i >>> can >>> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was >>> only after >>> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came >>> like a >>> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding >>> me in >>> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but >>> giving time to >>> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I >>> think it'll >>> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger generation.. >>> I think.. >>> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own >>> time..
>>> > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM, pol.science kid < >>> r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> > > > > > Hey the link worked for me...
>>> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:13 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> >>> wrote:
>>> > > > > >> I'm not sure aezen is functional Molly.
>>> > > > > >> On Apr 16, 12:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > > > > >> > This link is not functional.
>>> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I >>> have taken >>> > > > > >> the >>> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
>>> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become >>> self-aware. >>> > > > > >> They do >>> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is >>> moral or that >>> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the >>> demands of the >>> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or >>> denial of >>> > > > > >> medical >>> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families >>> from their >>> > > > > >> homes as >>> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with >>> one’s inner >>> > > > > >> self. >>> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in >>> authority do not >>> > > > > >> want >>> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and >>> where we >>> > > > > >> should go. >>> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power. >>> And they >>> > > > > >> know >>> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from >>> the radical >>> > > > > >> evil >>> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The >>> capacity to think >>> > > > > >> is the >>> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks >>> to impose >>> > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a huge difference, as >>> Socrates >>> > > > > >> understood, >>> > > > > >> > > between teaching people what to think and teaching them >>> how to think. >>> > > > > >> Those >>> > > > > >> > > who are endowed with a moral conscience refuse to commit >>> crimes, even >>> > > > > >> those >>> > > > > >> > > sanctioned by the corporate state, because they do not in >>> the end >>> > > > > >> want to >>> > > > > >> > > live with criminals—themselves.
>>> > > > > >> > > Advertisement >>> > > > > >> > > “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than, >>> being one, to >>> > > > > >> be at >>> > > > > >> > > odds with myself,” Socrates said. [...]"
In a dynamic system that is identifying/defining its static elements a medival mind is something negative whereas the mid-evil mind emphasizes its work-in-progress aspect. In experiencing oneself in a static system one is not given that freedom of interpretation.
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote: > I watched a program on the mid evil mind and how they view things.. one > of the things that was looked at education and part of it involved islam ,, > I always knew that number system was arabic in origin what i found > interesting is their interest in the ancient philosophers and mathematics > as well as other sciences,, but they did not give much detail on that end..
> My question is what happened to islam that it stopped its interest science > and mathematics is one of the truly pure sciences it seems all that islam > It seems there is no interest in harmony and co-existence is interested in > is murder and forcing people to live their set of rules which > is contrary to western law. > Allan
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:28 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> The education system has become a means of sorting out the population >> and not necessarily a government scam anymore than one that eases the >> selections of politics, business, society and so on. It was probably >> tidier in the Middle Ages with an overall system of belief and >> practice.
>> On Apr 15, 10:36 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > I'm struck that universal education has failed us. I'd go for >> > deschooling and have education after 14 voluntary and much more >> > related to practice (not necessarily work). Current university >> > programmes should be available on television and available free with >> > Internet supervision from university hubs where academics work in the >> > community and social and sports events are also civic rather than >> > separated as now. Education is currently a government scam and an >> > export scam.
>> > On Apr 15, 3:23 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > I oscillate between visionary and lunatic fringe. If one liners paid >> > > the bills I'd be a millionaire, the exercise comes in the unpacking so >> > > a wee bit of sarcasm may be in order. Thanks Vam ;-)
>> > > On 4/15/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > Facebook has "Like", Twitter would allow "Retweet", and I could >> re-pin >> > > > on Pinterest ...
>> > > > Let's say, I am doing all three now !
>> > > > On Apr 15, 8:57 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> It is helpful to have an idea of process and structure and it >> seems to >> > > >> me you are both talking about a qualitative/individual aspect to >> > > >> education. This is an important focus, I think all else follows >> from >> > > >> the challenges to success to the contributions to society- every >> last >> > > >> ounce of potential is in the individual. All else is logistics of >> > > >> scale, systematization, and mechanization.
>> > > >> On 4/14/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > >> > Good. But my response has nothing to do eastern or western >> anything.
>> > > >> > It's me. I regard any education as nothing if not leading to the >> > > >> > evolution of something within me which gives a me perspective to >> world >> > > >> > and life, a values system I can touch to know what the thing or >> matter >> > > >> > before me means, to me.
>> > > >> > That should leave all the bubbles with you. And the yeast...
>> > > >> > On Apr 14, 8:49 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> >> It looks you took Ash's mixing pot image too literal, Vam. You >> don't >> > > >> >> bring >> > > >> >> order into a mixing pot by sequencing bubble terms - add some >> yeast if >> > > >> >> you >> > > >> >> want to create bubbles and get your new order!
>> > > >> >> If wisdom is what you wish to attain, you will not be able to >> achieve >> > > >> >> your >> > > >> >> goal without having taken good care of your critical eye, for >> it is the >> > > >> >> root that prevents you from being blinded.
>> > > >> >> Education does not deliver knowledge or facts - Google or my >> newspaper >> > > >> >> does >> > > >> >> that. In a wider sense they also educate me, but more in the >> sense of I >> > > >> >> am >> > > >> >> using their services with the intention to get access to >> information >> > > >> >> and >> > > >> >> not in the sense that I wish to get formed in their image.
>> > > >> >> I see a big difference in eastern and western understanding of >> what >> > > >> >> education means.
>> > > >> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > > >> >> > Education, leading to some wisdom in which our critical view >> may take >> > > >> >> > root, takes time... yes, Knowledge >>> Attitude >>> >> Application >>> >> > > >> >> > Skills involves a process of incubation, and Time.
>> > > >> >> > Now, the time required for specific knowledge-to-skill >> acquisition >> > > >> >> > process to complete differs with different people, for a >> variety of >> > > >> >> > reasons and factors involved.
>> > > >> >> > So, the society - education industry - only promises to >> deliver the >> > > >> >> > knowledge, leaving our any committment to orienting the >> student's >> > > >> >> > attitude, willing to apply and learn from it, and its >> maturation into >> > > >> >> > an integrated perspective and life skills.
>> > > >> >> > The education just delivers the knowledge, the " facts," to >> meet a >> > > >> >> > schedule. What a stated " fact " means, in association with >> others >> > > >> >> > stated and unstated, is upto the student to discover.
>> > > >> >> > It may happen tommorow, take a lifetime, or may never emerge !
>> > > >> >> > On Apr 14, 3:01 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > >> >> > > I think education is a mixing pot. Remove the social >> factors and I >> > > >> >> > > think US public education is good, here in the states we >> believe in >> > > >> >> > > solving social problems by expanding the prison system. o.0 >> The >> > > >> >> > > solutions I keep hearing from people in the past year are >> bizarre, >> > > >> >> > > vigilante militia with public executions sort of stuff. It >> makes me >> > > >> >> > > wonder if it's a meme I'm missing or something. Anyway.. >> back to >> > > >> >> > > topic.
>> > > >> >> > > Who has the attitude that it is a waste of time: kids, >> parents, >> > > >> >> > > teachers? I imagine modernizing a largely rural or isolated >> > > >> >> > > population >> > > >> >> > > would have some resistance, I'd say give it a few >> generations to >> > > >> >> > > get >> > > >> >> > > going and put a lot of effort in recycling their traditional >> > > >> >> > > community >> > > >> >> > > resources. If it is a boilerplate political maneuver there >> is still >> > > >> >> > > social gain but I would worry about increasing resentment >> and >> > > >> >> > > culture >> > > >> >> > > clash. The roots of education predate and transcend >> institutional >> > > >> >> > > bureaucracy and the primary factors revolve around family >> and >> > > >> >> > > community, a progressive surge could propel innovative >> strategies >> > > >> >> > > but >> > > >> >> > > I think it also could decimate a culture or weaken it's >> ability to >> > > >> >> > > adapt and outpace growing pains/challenges.
>> > > >> >> > > This is an interesting topic pol, more observations please.
>> > > >> >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village ... >> we were >> > > >> >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while >> doing the >> > > >> >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand education.. >> > > >> >> > > > clearly >> > > >> >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in >> the rural >> > > >> >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their >> time...teachers >> > > >> >> > > > hate >> > > >> >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is bitching... >> the >> > > >> >> > > > situation >> > > >> >> > > > is pretty bad.. those who can do get out.. actually >> primary >> > > >> >> > > > education >> > > >> >> > > > in my country is pretty beat up... now in know most of >> you are >> > > >> >> > > > from >> > > >> >> > > > the 'West'.. Sounds weird when i say it like that.. we're >> > > >> >> > > > frequently >> > > >> >> > > > told that primary education in the west is quite o.k. >> .... in >> > > >> >> > > > fact >> > > >> >> > > > good.. What do you guys think?.. Also... how do you define >> > > >> >> > > > education..i almost hate the term by now.. get to hear it >> so much >> > > >> >> > > > with >> > > >> >> > > > people having no idea of what they mean.... what do you >> think..?
>> > > -- >> > > Please do not put me on forwarding lists or submit my address to cute >> > > online greetings or anything else for that matter. If you must, please >> > > forward me in BCC and send me a link to cute greetings. Many thanks!- >> Hide quoted text -
Girl's ice hockey is hot- so are several other intense sports. Sports
may help tame the teenage beast. Gym and physical fitness should be
required of all students. Outdoor skills can be acquired in Scouts or
camp. Home economics and shop should be required somewhere in the
system. Few seem able to bathe or cook on their own. Unfortunately
life skills- like budgets- are neglected.
Some sports are degrading education but how do you solve that? Sports
is just one of several challenges to taking education seriously. Then
you have to luck out re opportunity in the market place to earn a
living vs a pipe dream of fame and fortune.
On Apr 17, 3:03 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the internet is a great place for education.. and i think all
> basic education should be free especially the "3 R's" "Reading, Riting an
> Rithmatic" (Sorry could resist) There is a lot of information out there and
> it might be beneficial to have a location (I have not looked)
> for curriculum for basic education and also based on interest one designed
> to bring out natural talent... IMO one of the greatest downfalls of
> american education is its emphasis on competitive sports at taxpayer
> expense.. Sports should have nothing to do with education.. and takes away
> from learning, creating a two class society.. there is nothing wrong with
> sports but it can be done out side of school.. the taxpayer should not
> have to support the promotion of major league sports like football and
> basketball.
> Mathematics and the sciences should be supported to the same extreme sports
> are today. "lol" maybe the would be a much higher form of couch potato..
> I see basketball being played out side in public play ground to
> a great extent. Over here in the Netherlands I see american style football
> (not soccer) being played by people who have as a club bought their own
> gear.. (not taxpayer supported ) and neither is football (soccer) taxpayer
> supported it is all privately funded.. It seems all of the kids (boys and
> girls) know how to play football or some other sport.. I wonder how the
> american high school girls would stand up against field hockey scares the
> hell out of me when I watch it on TV.. The real question is why do
> taxpayers have to pay for competitive sports instead of education?
> Allan
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 5:06 AM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and
> > > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base
> > > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to
> > teach
> > > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and
> > > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down
> > > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should
> > be
> > > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more
> > > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain
> > > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days.
> > > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such
> > > decline.
> > I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the
> > impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society
> > not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or
> > else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off
> > the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations
> > and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section
> > going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying
> > socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and
> > familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite
> > present across the board. What we have is a society composed of
> > psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly
> > aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in
> > environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to
> > human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard.
> > But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach
> > solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> > > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive
> > > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only
> > > thing."
> > I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents,
> > as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge
> > with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the
> > mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in
> > both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a
> > wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic
> > oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily
> > justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding
> > attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social
> > reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is
> > what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded
> > tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that
> > attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> > We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put
> > forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper
> > Vigilance.
> > > dj
> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Absolutely...
> > >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation,
> > >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> > >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but
> > >> ill still
> > >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem,
> > of
> > >> this
> > >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really
> > >> dissappointed
> > >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in
> > trying
> > >> to make
> > >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i
> > can
> > >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was
> > >> only after
> > >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came
> > >> like a
> > >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding
> > me
> > >> in
> > >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but
> > giving
> > >> time to
> > >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I
> > think
> > >> it'll
> > >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger
> > generation.. I
> > >> think..
> > >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own
> > >> > > > > time..
> > >> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I
> > >> have taken
> > >> > > > > >> the
> > >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
> > >> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become
> > >> self-aware.
> > >> > > > > >> They do
> > >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is
> > >> moral or that
> > >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the
> > demands
> > >> of the
> > >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or
> > >> denial of
> > >> > > > > >> medical
> > >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families
> > from
> > >> their
> > >> > > > > >> homes as
> > >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with
> > >> one’s inner
> > >> > > > > >> self.
> > >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in
> > authority
> > >> do not
> > >> > > > > >> want
> > >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and
> > >> where we
> > >> > > > > >> should go.
> > >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power.
> > >> And they
> > >> > > > > >> know
> > >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from
> > >> the radical
> > >> > > > > >> evil
> > >> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The
> > capacity
> > >> to think
> > >> > > > > >> is the
> > >> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks
> > >> to impose
> > >> > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a
Teens use the internet to mostly tweet, don't they? It's a headache
for teachers re plagiarism and skipping original assignments- like
actually reading the assigned book. Television tried to be a tool of
education- look what happened. Teens get their "news" from comics,
mockers and the cynical late-night shows. The ads are ridiculous or
pathetic but spur consumerism anyway. Well, the ancients complained of
their lazy, no-good youths as well so it's not a new problem. What is
new, is that adults have allocated so much power to children starting
with the Boomers- many of whom refuse to grow up themselves- so the
hierarchy system has broken down except for those rare creatures who
renew our faith in youth.
On Apr 17, 3:03 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the internet is a great place for education.. and i think all
> basic education should be free especially the "3 R's" "Reading, Riting an
> Rithmatic" (Sorry could resist) There is a lot of information out there and
> it might be beneficial to have a location (I have not looked)
> for curriculum for basic education and also based on interest one designed
> to bring out natural talent... IMO one of the greatest downfalls of
> american education is its emphasis on competitive sports at taxpayer
> expense.. Sports should have nothing to do with education.. and takes away
> from learning, creating a two class society.. there is nothing wrong with
> sports but it can be done out side of school.. the taxpayer should not
> have to support the promotion of major league sports like football and
> basketball.
> Mathematics and the sciences should be supported to the same extreme sports
> are today. "lol" maybe the would be a much higher form of couch potato..
> I see basketball being played out side in public play ground to
> a great extent. Over here in the Netherlands I see american style football
> (not soccer) being played by people who have as a club bought their own
> gear.. (not taxpayer supported ) and neither is football (soccer) taxpayer
> supported it is all privately funded.. It seems all of the kids (boys and
> girls) know how to play football or some other sport.. I wonder how the
> american high school girls would stand up against field hockey scares the
> hell out of me when I watch it on TV.. The real question is why do
> taxpayers have to pay for competitive sports instead of education?
> Allan
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 5:06 AM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and
> > > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base
> > > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to
> > teach
> > > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and
> > > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down
> > > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should
> > be
> > > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more
> > > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain
> > > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days.
> > > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such
> > > decline.
> > I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the
> > impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society
> > not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or
> > else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off
> > the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations
> > and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section
> > going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying
> > socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and
> > familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite
> > present across the board. What we have is a society composed of
> > psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly
> > aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in
> > environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to
> > human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard.
> > But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach
> > solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> > > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive
> > > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only
> > > thing."
> > I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents,
> > as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge
> > with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the
> > mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in
> > both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a
> > wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic
> > oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily
> > justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding
> > attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social
> > reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is
> > what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded
> > tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that
> > attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> > We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put
> > forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper
> > Vigilance.
> > > dj
> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Absolutely...
> > >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation,
> > >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> > >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but
> > >> ill still
> > >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem,
> > of
> > >> this
> > >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really
> > >> dissappointed
> > >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in
> > trying
> > >> to make
> > >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i
> > can
> > >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was
> > >> only after
> > >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came
> > >> like a
> > >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding
> > me
> > >> in
> > >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but
> > giving
> > >> time to
> > >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I
> > think
> > >> it'll
> > >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger
> > generation.. I
> > >> think..
> > >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own
> > >> > > > > time..
> > >> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I
> > >> have taken
> > >> > > > > >> the
> > >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
> > >> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become
> > >> self-aware.
> > >> > > > > >> They do
> > >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is
> > >> moral or that
> > >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the
> > demands
> > >> of the
> > >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or
> > >> denial of
> > >> > > > > >> medical
> > >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families
> > from
> > >> their
> > >> > > > > >> homes as
> > >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with
> > >> one’s inner
> > >> > > > > >> self.
> > >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in
> > authority
> > >> do not
> > >> > > > > >> want
> > >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and
> > >> where we
> > >> > > > > >> should go.
> > >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power.
> > >> And they
> > >> > > > > >> know
> > >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from
> > >> the radical
> > >> > > > > >> evil
> > >> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The
> > capacity
> > >> to think
> > >> > > > > >> is the
> > >> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that
> I agree with you that the basic problem is this disconnect between what is
> being taught and the real deal,so to say. Well, i think it is necessary to
> place the subject in some context and and not teach it in isolation. And
> for kids the teachers need to do that first. See, ill give you a first hand
> experience. Like i said before, i feel my school learning has been zero.
> But , i left math and science in my higher classes and opted for
> humanities. i felt i could do better, in humanities. It was fine..only as
> my reading and perception grows and the ability to place things in a larger
> context. Sometimes i read some thing related to science and i think.. i
> never saw it like that. And even wish i had not left science, which brings
> me to another point, they should make for better interdisciplinary options
> in higher classes. Which they dont in my country.i dont know about your
> country. But to continue what i was saying. Somehow.this learning is
> alienating(school level). we need a living engagement.Of course these
> divisions are for our convenience and we should know that.Speaking of what
> should be taught , i feel in schools there is a need to place religion in a
> sociological context. talk about it scientifically. My country is filled
> with superstitious and religious people.But to see orhtodoxy in someone my
> age is a revolting thought to me. I have a lot of respect for
> mathematicians . since my math isnt great. I used to think theyre out of
> this world. Well i know this top level gold medal math/physics grad
> student. Who is superstitious, communal and holds odd notions. Now ive
> tried to reason with this person, who holds these strange communal notions
> about muslims. No use. And i think to myself.. dude..where does all your
> reasoning power go.Actually i know many such people. Also one more thing i
> feel is that competition is not the answer. I think this will re-enforce
> this already rote learning , merit obsession. Focus needs to go in framing
> these methods. What these people think is that you can only shift between
> easy and difficult. Thats giving no credit to the rationalizing ability of
> the student. To get better results you need to frame better questions.
> Putting across good questions is top priority. One needs to know what to
> you want to question , that will orient the identification of merit. not
> the simple fact based questions we are fed. Well in our education industry
> the checking of answer scripts is corruption based. Many sheets go
> unchecked and are marked randomly by undertrained teachers. This is also
> true for university level. I can go on and on. But ill stop here.
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 5:20 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and
> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base
> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to teach
> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and
> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down
> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should be
> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more
> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain
> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days.
> > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such
> > decline.
> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive
> > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only
> > thing."
> > dj
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Absolutely...
> >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation,
> >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but
> >> ill still
> >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem, of
> >> this
> >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really
> >> dissappointed
> >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in trying
> >> to make
> >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i can
> >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was
> >> only after
> >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came
> >> like a
> >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding
> >> me in
> >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but
> >> giving time to
> >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I think
> >> it'll
> >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger generation..
> >> I think..
> >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own
> >> time..
> >> > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM, pol.science kid <
> >> r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> > > > > > Hey the link worked for me...
> >> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:13 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > > > > >> I'm not sure aezen is functional Molly.
> >> > > > > >> On Apr 16, 12:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > >> > This link is not functional.
> >> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I
> >> have taken
> >> > > > > >> the
> >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
> >> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become
> >> self-aware.
> >> > > > > >> They do
> >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is
> >> moral or that
> >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the
> >> demands of the
> >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or
> >> denial of
> >> > > > > >> medical
> >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families
> >> from their
> >> > > > > >> homes as
> >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with
> >> one’s inner
> >> > > > > >> self.
> >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in
> >> authority do not
> >> > > > > >> want
> >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and
> >> where we
> >> > > > > >> should go.
> >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power.
> >> And they
> >> > > > > >> know
> >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from
> >> the radical
> >> > > > > >> evil
> >> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The capacity
> >> to think
> >> > > > > >> is the
> >> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks
> >> to impose
> >> > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a huge difference, as Socrates
> >> > > > > >> understood,
> >> > > > > >> > > between teaching people what to think and teaching them
> >> how to think.
> >> > > > > >> Those
> >> > > > > >> > > who are endowed with a moral conscience refuse to commit
> >> crimes, even
> >> > > > > >> those
> >> > > > > >> > > sanctioned by the corporate state, because they do not in
> >> the end
> >> > > > > >> want to
> >> > > > > >> > > live with criminals—themselves.
> >> > > > > >> > > Advertisement
> >> > > > > >> > > “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than,
> >> being one, to
> >> > > > > >> be at
> >> > > > > >> > > odds with myself,” Socrates said. [...]"
> >> > > > > >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village ...
> >> we were
> >> > > > > >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while
> >> doing the
> >> > > > > >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand
> >> education.. clearly
> >> > > > > >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in
> >> the rural
> >> > > > > >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their
> >> time...teachers
> >> > > > > >> hate
> >> > > > > >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is bitching...
> >> the
> >> > > > > >> situation
> >> > > > > >> > > > is pretty bad.. those who can do get out.. actually
> >> primary
> >> > > > > >> education
> >> > > > > >> > > > in my country is pretty beat up... now in know most of
> >> you are from
> >> > > > > >> > > > the 'West'.. Sounds weird when i say it like that..
> >> we're frequently
> >> > > > > >> > > > told that primary education in the west is quite o.k.
> >> .... in fact
> >> > > > > >> > > > good.. What do you guys think?.. Also... how do you
> >> define
> >> > > > > >> > > > education..i almost hate the term by
gabby humanity is till a work in progress,, wonder what ever happened to the dogmen or the fishmen,, then there is the airmen. well you never hear of them now.. the oddity was they were recorded not myth.. twas interesting Allan
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:51 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote: > In a dynamic system that is identifying/defining its static elements a > medival mind is something negative whereas the mid-evil mind emphasizes its > work-in-progress aspect. In experiencing oneself in a static system one is > not given that freedom of interpretation.
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I watched a program on the mid evil mind and how they view things.. one >> of the things that was looked at education and part of it involved islam ,, >> I always knew that number system was arabic in origin what i found >> interesting is their interest in the ancient philosophers and mathematics >> as well as other sciences,, but they did not give much detail on that end..
>> My question is what happened to islam that it stopped its interest >> science and mathematics is one of the truly pure sciences it seems all that >> islam It seems there is no interest in harmony and >> co-existence is interested in is murder and forcing people to >> live their set of rules which is contrary to western law. >> Allan
>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:28 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> The education system has become a means of sorting out the population >>> and not necessarily a government scam anymore than one that eases the >>> selections of politics, business, society and so on. It was probably >>> tidier in the Middle Ages with an overall system of belief and >>> practice.
>>> On Apr 15, 10:36 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > I'm struck that universal education has failed us. I'd go for >>> > deschooling and have education after 14 voluntary and much more >>> > related to practice (not necessarily work). Current university >>> > programmes should be available on television and available free with >>> > Internet supervision from university hubs where academics work in the >>> > community and social and sports events are also civic rather than >>> > separated as now. Education is currently a government scam and an >>> > export scam.
>>> > On Apr 15, 3:23 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > I oscillate between visionary and lunatic fringe. If one liners paid >>> > > the bills I'd be a millionaire, the exercise comes in the unpacking >>> so >>> > > a wee bit of sarcasm may be in order. Thanks Vam ;-)
>>> > > On 4/15/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > > Facebook has "Like", Twitter would allow "Retweet", and I could >>> re-pin >>> > > > on Pinterest ...
>>> > > > Let's say, I am doing all three now !
>>> > > > On Apr 15, 8:57 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > > >> It is helpful to have an idea of process and structure and it >>> seems to >>> > > >> me you are both talking about a qualitative/individual aspect to >>> > > >> education. This is an important focus, I think all else follows >>> from >>> > > >> the challenges to success to the contributions to society- every >>> last >>> > > >> ounce of potential is in the individual. All else is logistics of >>> > > >> scale, systematization, and mechanization.
>>> > > >> On 4/14/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > > >> > Good. But my response has nothing to do eastern or western >>> anything.
>>> > > >> > It's me. I regard any education as nothing if not leading to the >>> > > >> > evolution of something within me which gives a me perspective >>> to world >>> > > >> > and life, a values system I can touch to know what the thing or >>> matter >>> > > >> > before me means, to me.
>>> > > >> > That should leave all the bubbles with you. And the yeast...
>>> > > >> > On Apr 14, 8:49 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > > >> >> It looks you took Ash's mixing pot image too literal, Vam. You >>> don't >>> > > >> >> bring >>> > > >> >> order into a mixing pot by sequencing bubble terms - add some >>> yeast if >>> > > >> >> you >>> > > >> >> want to create bubbles and get your new order!
>>> > > >> >> If wisdom is what you wish to attain, you will not be able to >>> achieve >>> > > >> >> your >>> > > >> >> goal without having taken good care of your critical eye, for >>> it is the >>> > > >> >> root that prevents you from being blinded.
>>> > > >> >> Education does not deliver knowledge or facts - Google or my >>> newspaper >>> > > >> >> does >>> > > >> >> that. In a wider sense they also educate me, but more in the >>> sense of I >>> > > >> >> am >>> > > >> >> using their services with the intention to get access to >>> information >>> > > >> >> and >>> > > >> >> not in the sense that I wish to get formed in their image.
>>> > > >> >> I see a big difference in eastern and western understanding of >>> what >>> > > >> >> education means.
>>> > > >> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > > >> >> > Education, leading to some wisdom in which our critical view >>> may take >>> > > >> >> > root, takes time... yes, Knowledge >>> Attitude >>> >>> Application >>> >>> > > >> >> > Skills involves a process of incubation, and Time.
>>> > > >> >> > Now, the time required for specific knowledge-to-skill >>> acquisition >>> > > >> >> > process to complete differs with different people, for a >>> variety of >>> > > >> >> > reasons and factors involved.
>>> > > >> >> > So, the society - education industry - only promises to >>> deliver the >>> > > >> >> > knowledge, leaving our any committment to orienting the >>> student's >>> > > >> >> > attitude, willing to apply and learn from it, and its >>> maturation into >>> > > >> >> > an integrated perspective and life skills.
>>> > > >> >> > The education just delivers the knowledge, the " facts," to >>> meet a >>> > > >> >> > schedule. What a stated " fact " means, in association with >>> others >>> > > >> >> > stated and unstated, is upto the student to discover.
>>> > > >> >> > It may happen tommorow, take a lifetime, or may never emerge >>> !
>>> > > >> >> > On Apr 14, 3:01 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > > >> >> > > I think education is a mixing pot. Remove the social >>> factors and I >>> > > >> >> > > think US public education is good, here in the states we >>> believe in >>> > > >> >> > > solving social problems by expanding the prison system. >>> o.0 The >>> > > >> >> > > solutions I keep hearing from people in the past year are >>> bizarre, >>> > > >> >> > > vigilante militia with public executions sort of stuff. It >>> makes me >>> > > >> >> > > wonder if it's a meme I'm missing or something. Anyway.. >>> back to >>> > > >> >> > > topic.
>>> > > >> >> > > Who has the attitude that it is a waste of time: kids, >>> parents, >>> > > >> >> > > teachers? I imagine modernizing a largely rural or isolated >>> > > >> >> > > population >>> > > >> >> > > would have some resistance, I'd say give it a few >>> generations to >>> > > >> >> > > get >>> > > >> >> > > going and put a lot of effort in recycling their >>> traditional >>> > > >> >> > > community >>> > > >> >> > > resources. If it is a boilerplate political maneuver there >>> is still >>> > > >> >> > > social gain but I would worry about increasing resentment >>> and >>> > > >> >> > > culture >>> > > >> >> > > clash. The roots of education predate and transcend >>> institutional >>> > > >> >> > > bureaucracy and the primary factors revolve around family >>> and >>> > > >> >> > > community, a progressive surge could propel innovative >>> strategies >>> > > >> >> > > but >>> > > >> >> > > I think it also could decimate a culture or weaken it's >>> ability to >>> > > >> >> > > adapt and outpace growing pains/challenges.
>>> > > >> >> > > This is an interesting topic pol, more observations please.
>>> > > >> >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village ... >>> we were >>> > > >> >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while >>> doing the >>> > > >> >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand >>> education.. >>> > > >> >> > > > clearly >>> > > >> >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in >>> the rural >>> > > >> >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their >>> time...teachers >>> > > >> >> > > > hate >>> > > >> >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is bitching... >>> the >>> > > >> >> > > > situation >>> > > >> >> > > > is pretty bad.. those who can do get out.. actually >>> primary >>> > > >> >> > > > education >>> > > >> >> > > > in my country is pretty beat up... now in know most of >>> you are >>> > > >> >> > > > from >>> > > >> >> > > > the 'West'.. Sounds weird when i say it like that.. we're >>> > > >> >> > > > frequently >>> > > >> >> > > > told that primary education in the west is quite o.k. >>> .... in >>> > > >> >> > > > fact >>> > > >> >> > > > good.. What do you guys think?.. Also... how do you >>> define >>> > > >> >> > > > education..i almost hate the term by now.. get to hear >>> it so much >>> > > >> >> > > > with >>> > > >> >> > > > people having no idea of what they mean.... what do you >>> think..?
>>> > > -- >>> > > Please do not put me on forwarding lists or submit my address to cute >>> > > online greetings or anything else for that matter. If you must, >>> please >>> > > forward me in BCC and send me a link to cute greetings. Many >>> thanks!- Hide quoted text -
>>> > - Show quoted text -
>> -- >> ( >> ) >> |_D Allan
>> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 12:46 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Girl's ice hockey is hot- so are several other intense sports. Sports > may help tame the teenage beast. Gym and physical fitness should be > required of all students. Outdoor skills can be acquired in Scouts or > camp. Home economics and shop should be required somewhere in the > system. Few seem able to bathe or cook on their own. Unfortunately > life skills- like budgets- are neglected.
> Some sports are degrading education but how do you solve that? Sports > is just one of several challenges to taking education seriously. Then > you have to luck out re opportunity in the market place to earn a > living vs a pipe dream of fame and fortune.
> On Apr 17, 3:03 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I think the internet is a great place for education.. and i think all > > basic education should be free especially the "3 R's" "Reading, Riting an > > Rithmatic" (Sorry could resist) There is a lot of information out there > and > > it might be beneficial to have a location (I have not looked) > > for curriculum for basic education and also based on interest one > designed > > to bring out natural talent... IMO one of the greatest downfalls of > > american education is its emphasis on competitive sports at taxpayer > > expense.. Sports should have nothing to do with education.. and takes > away > > from learning, creating a two class society.. there is nothing wrong with > > sports but it can be done out side of school.. the taxpayer should not > > have to support the promotion of major league sports like football and > > basketball.
> > Mathematics and the sciences should be supported to the same extreme > sports > > are today. "lol" maybe the would be a much higher form of couch potato.. > > I see basketball being played out side in public play ground to > > a great extent. Over here in the Netherlands I see american style > football > > (not soccer) being played by people who have as a club bought their own > > gear.. (not taxpayer supported ) and neither is football (soccer) > taxpayer > > supported it is all privately funded.. It seems all of the kids (boys > and > > girls) know how to play football or some other sport.. I wonder how the > > american high school girls would stand up against field hockey scares the > > hell out of me when I watch it on TV.. The real question is why do > > taxpayers have to pay for competitive sports instead of education? > > Allan
> > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 5:06 AM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and > > > > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base > > > > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to > > > teach > > > > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and > > > > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down > > > > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We > should > > > be > > > > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need > more > > > > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain > > > > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these > days. > > > > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such > > > > decline.
> > > I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the > > > impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society > > > not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or > > > else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off > > > the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations > > > and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section > > > going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying > > > socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and > > > familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite > > > present across the board. What we have is a society composed of > > > psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly > > > aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in > > > environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to > > > human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard. > > > But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach > > > solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> > > > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. > Competitive > > > > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the > only > > > > thing."
> > > I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents, > > > as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge > > > with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the > > > mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in > > > both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a > > > wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic > > > oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily > > > justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding > > > attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social > > > reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is > > > what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded > > > tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that > > > attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> > > We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put > > > forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper > > > Vigilance.
> > > > dj
> > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> Absolutely...
> > > >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, > > > >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> > > >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or > not but > > > >> ill still > > > >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar > problem, > > > of > > > >> this > > > >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really > > > >> dissappointed > > > >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in > > > trying > > > >> to make > > > >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean > it.. i > > > can > > > >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it > was > > > >> only after > > > >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it > came > > > >> like a > > > >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they > feeding > > > me > > > >> in > > > >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but > > > giving > > > >> time to > > > >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I > > > think > > > >> it'll > > > >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger > > > generation.. I > > > >> think.. > > > >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own > > > >> > > > > time..
> > > >> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from > which I > > > >> have taken > > > >> > > > > >> the > > > >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
> > > >> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They > become > > > >> self-aware. > > > >> > > > > >> They do > > > >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that > fraud is > > > >> moral or that > > > >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the > > > demands > > > >> of the > > > >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of > children or > > > >> denial of > > > >> > > > > >> medical > > > >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million > families > > > from > > > >> their > > > >> > > > > >> homes as > > > >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue > with > > > >> one’s inner > > > >> > > > > >> self. > > > >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in > > > authority > > > >> do not > > > >> > > > > >> want > > > >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from > and > > > >> where we > > > >> > > > > >> should go. > > > >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of
Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of low expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education system can fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do you make a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and if you have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders to deal with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different needs and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works for one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always favored the Montessori method for primary schooling.
Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those willing and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not ok to steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney off to "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of this kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the learning of more well behaved children.
Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
dj
On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and > > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base > > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to > teach > > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and > > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down > > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should > be > > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more > > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain > > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days. > > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such > > decline.
> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the > impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society > not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or > else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off > the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations > and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section > going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying > socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and > familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite > present across the board. What we have is a society composed of > psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly > aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in > environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to > human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard. > But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach > solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive > > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only > > thing."
> I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents, > as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge > with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the > mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in > both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a > wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic > oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily > justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding > attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social > reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is > what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded > tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that > attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put > forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper > Vigilance.
> > dj
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Absolutely...
> >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, > >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but > >> ill still > >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem, > of > >> this > >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really > >> dissappointed > >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in > trying > >> to make > >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i > can > >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was > >> only after > >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came > >> like a > >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding > me > >> in > >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but > giving > >> time to > >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I > think > >> it'll > >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger > generation.. I > >> think.. > >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own > >> > > > > time..
> >> > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM, pol.science kid < > >> r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> > > > > > Hey the link worked for me...
> >> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:13 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> > >> wrote:
> >> > > > > >> I'm not sure aezen is functional Molly.
> >> > > > > >> On Apr 16, 12:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > This link is not functional.
> >> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I > >> have taken > >> > > > > >> the > >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
> >> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become > >> self-aware. > >> > > > > >> They do > >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is > >> moral or that > >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the > demands > >> of the > >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or > >> denial of > >> > > > > >> medical > >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families > from > >> their > >> > > > > >> homes as > >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with > >> one’s inner > >> > > > > >> self. > >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in > authority > >> do not > >> > > > > >> want > >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and > >> where we > >> > > > > >> should go. > >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power. > >> And they > >> > > > > >> know > >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from > >> the radical > >> > > > > >> evil > >> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The > capacity > >> to think > >> > > > > >> is the > >> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks > >> to impose > >> > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a huge difference, as > Socrates > >> > > > > >> understood, > >> > > > > >> > > between teaching people what to think and teaching them > how > >> to think. > >> > > > > >> Those > >> > > > > >> > > who are endowed with a moral conscience refuse to commit > >> crimes, even > >> > > > > >> those > >> > > > > >> > > sanctioned by the corporate state, because they do not in > >> the end > >> > > > > >> want to > >> > > > > >> > > live with criminals—themselves.
> >> > > > > >> > > Advertisement > >> > > > > >> > > “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than, > >> being one, to > >> > > > > >> be at > >> > > > > >> > > odds with myself,” Socrates said. [...]"
> >> > > > > >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village > ... > >> we were > >> > > > > >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while > >> doing the > >> > > > > >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand > >> education.. clearly > >> > > > > >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in > >> the rural > >> > > > > >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their
On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote: > gabby humanity is till a work in progress,, wonder what ever happened to > the dogmen or the fishmen,, then there is the airmen. well you never hear > of them now.. the oddity was they were recorded not myth.. twas interesting > Allan
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:51 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In a dynamic system that is identifying/defining its static elements a >> medival mind is something negative whereas the mid-evil mind emphasizes its >> work-in-progress aspect. In experiencing oneself in a static system one is >> not given that freedom of interpretation.
>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I watched a program on the mid evil mind and how they view things.. >>> one of the things that was looked at education and part of it involved >>> islam ,, I always knew that number system was arabic in origin what i >>> found interesting is their interest in the >>> ancient philosophers and mathematics as well as other sciences,, but they >>> did not give much detail on that end..
>>> My question is what happened to islam that it stopped its interest >>> science and mathematics is one of the truly pure sciences it seems all that >>> islam It seems there is no interest in harmony and >>> co-existence is interested in is murder and forcing people to >>> live their set of rules which is contrary to western law. >>> Allan
>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:28 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> The education system has become a means of sorting out the population >>>> and not necessarily a government scam anymore than one that eases the >>>> selections of politics, business, society and so on. It was probably >>>> tidier in the Middle Ages with an overall system of belief and >>>> practice.
>>>> On Apr 15, 10:36 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > I'm struck that universal education has failed us. I'd go for >>>> > deschooling and have education after 14 voluntary and much more >>>> > related to practice (not necessarily work). Current university >>>> > programmes should be available on television and available free with >>>> > Internet supervision from university hubs where academics work in the >>>> > community and social and sports events are also civic rather than >>>> > separated as now. Education is currently a government scam and an >>>> > export scam.
>>>> > On Apr 15, 3:23 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > > I oscillate between visionary and lunatic fringe. If one liners paid >>>> > > the bills I'd be a millionaire, the exercise comes in the unpacking >>>> so >>>> > > a wee bit of sarcasm may be in order. Thanks Vam ;-)
>>>> > > On 4/15/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > > > Facebook has "Like", Twitter would allow "Retweet", and I could >>>> re-pin >>>> > > > on Pinterest ...
>>>> > > > Let's say, I am doing all three now !
>>>> > > > On Apr 15, 8:57 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > > >> It is helpful to have an idea of process and structure and it >>>> seems to >>>> > > >> me you are both talking about a qualitative/individual aspect to >>>> > > >> education. This is an important focus, I think all else follows >>>> from >>>> > > >> the challenges to success to the contributions to society- every >>>> last >>>> > > >> ounce of potential is in the individual. All else is logistics of >>>> > > >> scale, systematization, and mechanization.
>>>> > > >> On 4/14/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > > >> > Good. But my response has nothing to do eastern or western >>>> anything.
>>>> > > >> > It's me. I regard any education as nothing if not leading to >>>> the >>>> > > >> > evolution of something within me which gives a me perspective >>>> to world >>>> > > >> > and life, a values system I can touch to know what the thing >>>> or matter >>>> > > >> > before me means, to me.
>>>> > > >> > That should leave all the bubbles with you. And the yeast...
>>>> > > >> > On Apr 14, 8:49 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > > >> >> It looks you took Ash's mixing pot image too literal, Vam. >>>> You don't >>>> > > >> >> bring >>>> > > >> >> order into a mixing pot by sequencing bubble terms - add some >>>> yeast if >>>> > > >> >> you >>>> > > >> >> want to create bubbles and get your new order!
>>>> > > >> >> If wisdom is what you wish to attain, you will not be able to >>>> achieve >>>> > > >> >> your >>>> > > >> >> goal without having taken good care of your critical eye, for >>>> it is the >>>> > > >> >> root that prevents you from being blinded.
>>>> > > >> >> Education does not deliver knowledge or facts - Google or my >>>> newspaper >>>> > > >> >> does >>>> > > >> >> that. In a wider sense they also educate me, but more in the >>>> sense of I >>>> > > >> >> am >>>> > > >> >> using their services with the intention to get access to >>>> information >>>> > > >> >> and >>>> > > >> >> not in the sense that I wish to get formed in their image.
>>>> > > >> >> I see a big difference in eastern and western understanding >>>> of what >>>> > > >> >> education means.
>>>> > > >> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > > >> >> > Education, leading to some wisdom in which our critical >>>> view may take >>>> > > >> >> > root, takes time... yes, Knowledge >>> Attitude >>> >>>> Application >>> >>>> > > >> >> > Skills involves a process of incubation, and Time.
>>>> > > >> >> > Now, the time required for specific knowledge-to-skill >>>> acquisition >>>> > > >> >> > process to complete differs with different people, for a >>>> variety of >>>> > > >> >> > reasons and factors involved.
>>>> > > >> >> > So, the society - education industry - only promises to >>>> deliver the >>>> > > >> >> > knowledge, leaving our any committment to orienting the >>>> student's >>>> > > >> >> > attitude, willing to apply and learn from it, and its >>>> maturation into >>>> > > >> >> > an integrated perspective and life skills.
>>>> > > >> >> > The education just delivers the knowledge, the " facts," to >>>> meet a >>>> > > >> >> > schedule. What a stated " fact " means, in association with >>>> others >>>> > > >> >> > stated and unstated, is upto the student to discover.
>>>> > > >> >> > It may happen tommorow, take a lifetime, or may never >>>> emerge !
>>>> > > >> >> > On Apr 14, 3:01 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > > >> >> > > I think education is a mixing pot. Remove the social >>>> factors and I >>>> > > >> >> > > think US public education is good, here in the states we >>>> believe in >>>> > > >> >> > > solving social problems by expanding the prison system. >>>> o.0 The >>>> > > >> >> > > solutions I keep hearing from people in the past year are >>>> bizarre, >>>> > > >> >> > > vigilante militia with public executions sort of stuff. >>>> It makes me >>>> > > >> >> > > wonder if it's a meme I'm missing or something. Anyway.. >>>> back to >>>> > > >> >> > > topic.
>>>> > > >> >> > > Who has the attitude that it is a waste of time: kids, >>>> parents, >>>> > > >> >> > > teachers? I imagine modernizing a largely rural or >>>> isolated >>>> > > >> >> > > population >>>> > > >> >> > > would have some resistance, I'd say give it a few >>>> generations to >>>> > > >> >> > > get >>>> > > >> >> > > going and put a lot of effort in recycling their >>>> traditional >>>> > > >> >> > > community >>>> > > >> >> > > resources. If it is a boilerplate political maneuver >>>> there is still >>>> > > >> >> > > social gain but I would worry about increasing resentment >>>> and >>>> > > >> >> > > culture >>>> > > >> >> > > clash. The roots of education predate and transcend >>>> institutional >>>> > > >> >> > > bureaucracy and the primary factors revolve around family >>>> and >>>> > > >> >> > > community, a progressive surge could propel innovative >>>> strategies >>>> > > >> >> > > but >>>> > > >> >> > > I think it also could decimate a culture or weaken it's >>>> ability to >>>> > > >> >> > > adapt and outpace growing pains/challenges.
>>>> > > >> >> > > This is an interesting topic pol, more observations >>>> please.
>>>> > > >> >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village >>>> ... we were >>>> > > >> >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while >>>> doing the >>>> > > >> >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand >>>> education.. >>>> > > >> >> > > > clearly >>>> > > >> >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in >>>> the rural >>>> > > >> >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their >>>> time...teachers >>>> > > >> >> > > > hate >>>> > > >> >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is >>>> bitching... the >>>> > > >> >> > > > situation >>>> > > >> >> > > > is pretty bad.. those who can do get out.. actually >>>> primary >>>> > > >> >> > > > education >>>> > > >> >> > > > in my country is pretty beat up... now in know most of >>>> you are >>>> > > >> >> > > > from >>>> > > >> >> > > > the 'West'.. Sounds weird when i say it like that.. >>>> we're >>>> > > >> >> > > > frequently >>>> > > >> >> > > > told that primary education in the west is quite o.k. >>>> .... in >>>> > > >> >> > > > fact >>>> > > >> >> > > > good.. What do you guys think?.. Also... how do you >>>> define >>>> > > >> >> > > > education..i almost hate the term by now.. get to hear >>>> it so much >>>> > > >> >> > > > with >>>> > > >> >> > > > people having no idea of what they mean.... what do you >>>> think..?
Education needs more financial support not less.. and is a severe problem.. most of which comes from the community failing to meet the needs of educational support and their lack of willingness to pay the cost they could start with by making pay equal that of top executives.. to encourage the best and brightest to go into that profession ,, starting wages should be at say $50,000.oo to $60,000.oo you will start getting the top minds which is desperately needed..
***** lol ***** response ****
wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery.?.? well Actually I think it does just the opposite it increases it. The jocks become school approved and blessed adolescent thugs oops I mean bullies.. school honors their activities as are blessed by the school including bulling,, commonly known as the blind eye..
I do know people that have benefited from sports programst,, like a college education but those people seem to have been forced to use the hated sports as the way to get the education they needed.. and what about the children seriously injured doing these activities and then covered up these problems so they are never hear of again... you don't want to disturb their prize program for encouraging adolescent thuggery. Allan
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: > Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of low > expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some > teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education system can > fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do you make > a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and if you > have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders to deal > with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different needs > and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works for > one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always favored > the Montessori method for primary schooling.
> Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those willing > and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not ok to > steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney off to > "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of this > kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right > encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves > eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the > learning of more well behaved children.
> Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
> dj
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and >> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base >> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to >> teach >> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and >> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down >> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We >> should be >> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more >> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain >> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these >> days. >> > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such >> > decline.
>> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the >> impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society >> not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or >> else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off >> the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations >> and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section >> going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying >> socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and >> familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite >> present across the board. What we have is a society composed of >> psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly >> aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in >> environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to >> human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard. >> But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach >> solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
>> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive >> > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only >> > thing."
>> I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents, >> as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge >> with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the >> mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in >> both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a >> wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic >> oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily >> justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding >> attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social >> reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is >> what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded >> tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that >> attitude who can take serious questions into account.
>> We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put >> forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper >> Vigilance.
>> > dj
>> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Absolutely...
>> >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, >> >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
>> >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not >> but >> >> ill still >> >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem, >> of >> >> this >> >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really >> >> dissappointed >> >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in >> trying >> >> to make >> >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i >> can >> >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was >> >> only after >> >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it >> came >> >> like a >> >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they >> feeding me >> >> in >> >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but >> giving >> >> time to >> >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I >> think >> >> it'll >> >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger >> generation.. I >> >> think.. >> >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own >> >> > > > > time..
>> >> > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 9:09 PM, pol.science kid < >> >> r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >> > > > > > Hey the link worked for me...
>> >> > > > > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 8:13 PM, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > > > > >> I'm not sure aezen is functional Molly.
>> >> > > > > >> On Apr 16, 12:50 pm, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > > > > >> > This link is not functional.
>> >> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which >> I >> >> have taken >> >> > > > > >> the >> >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
>> >> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become >> >> self-aware. >> >> > > > > >> They do >> >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is >> >> moral or that >> >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the >> demands >> >> of the >> >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children >> or >> >> denial of >> >> > > > > >> medical >> >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families >> from >> >> their >> >> > > > > >> homes as >> >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with >> >> one’s inner >> >> > > > > >> self. >> >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in >> authority >> >> do not >> >> > > > > >> want >> >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and >> >> where we >> >> > > > > >> should go. >> >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of >> power. >> >> And they >> >> > > > > >> know >> >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from >> >> the radical >> >> > > > > >> evil >> >> > > > > >> > > that results from
Sorry Don these 'dogs'don't qualify as their heads are not that of dogs that are shown in the ancient manuscripts.. they definitely showed men with heads that look like those of dogs.. hence the name as for fishmen one was caught and then to government approved methods of torture to bring out the truth.. wait a minute according to the news these methods have not changed.. maybe that is what make man civilized is the ability to torture and approve of these actions. Allan
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:56 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> gabby humanity is till a work in progress,, wonder what ever happened to >> the dogmen or the fishmen,, then there is the airmen. well you never hear >> of them now.. the oddity was they were recorded not myth.. twas interesting >> Allan
>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:51 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In a dynamic system that is identifying/defining its static elements a >>> medival mind is something negative whereas the mid-evil mind emphasizes its >>> work-in-progress aspect. In experiencing oneself in a static system one is >>> not given that freedom of interpretation.
>>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I watched a program on the mid evil mind and how they view things.. >>>> one of the things that was looked at education and part of it involved >>>> islam ,, I always knew that number system was arabic in origin what i >>>> found interesting is their interest in the >>>> ancient philosophers and mathematics as well as other sciences,, but they >>>> did not give much detail on that end..
>>>> My question is what happened to islam that it stopped its interest >>>> science and mathematics is one of the truly pure sciences it seems all that >>>> islam It seems there is no interest in harmony and >>>> co-existence is interested in is murder and forcing people to >>>> live their set of rules which is contrary to western law. >>>> Allan
>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:28 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> The education system has become a means of sorting out the population >>>>> and not necessarily a government scam anymore than one that eases the >>>>> selections of politics, business, society and so on. It was probably >>>>> tidier in the Middle Ages with an overall system of belief and >>>>> practice.
>>>>> On Apr 15, 10:36 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > I'm struck that universal education has failed us. I'd go for >>>>> > deschooling and have education after 14 voluntary and much more >>>>> > related to practice (not necessarily work). Current university >>>>> > programmes should be available on television and available free with >>>>> > Internet supervision from university hubs where academics work in the >>>>> > community and social and sports events are also civic rather than >>>>> > separated as now. Education is currently a government scam and an >>>>> > export scam.
>>>>> > On Apr 15, 3:23 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > > I oscillate between visionary and lunatic fringe. If one liners >>>>> paid >>>>> > > the bills I'd be a millionaire, the exercise comes in the >>>>> unpacking so >>>>> > > a wee bit of sarcasm may be in order. Thanks Vam ;-)
>>>>> > > On 4/15/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > > > Facebook has "Like", Twitter would allow "Retweet", and I could >>>>> re-pin >>>>> > > > on Pinterest ...
>>>>> > > > Let's say, I am doing all three now !
>>>>> > > > On Apr 15, 8:57 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > > >> It is helpful to have an idea of process and structure and it >>>>> seems to >>>>> > > >> me you are both talking about a qualitative/individual aspect to >>>>> > > >> education. This is an important focus, I think all else follows >>>>> from >>>>> > > >> the challenges to success to the contributions to society- >>>>> every last >>>>> > > >> ounce of potential is in the individual. All else is logistics >>>>> of >>>>> > > >> scale, systematization, and mechanization.
>>>>> > > >> On 4/14/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> > > >> > Good. But my response has nothing to do eastern or western >>>>> anything.
>>>>> > > >> > It's me. I regard any education as nothing if not leading to >>>>> the >>>>> > > >> > evolution of something within me which gives a me perspective >>>>> to world >>>>> > > >> > and life, a values system I can touch to know what the thing >>>>> or matter >>>>> > > >> > before me means, to me.
>>>>> > > >> > That should leave all the bubbles with you. And the yeast...
>>>>> > > >> > On Apr 14, 8:49 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > > >> >> It looks you took Ash's mixing pot image too literal, Vam. >>>>> You don't >>>>> > > >> >> bring >>>>> > > >> >> order into a mixing pot by sequencing bubble terms - add >>>>> some yeast if >>>>> > > >> >> you >>>>> > > >> >> want to create bubbles and get your new order!
>>>>> > > >> >> If wisdom is what you wish to attain, you will not be able >>>>> to achieve >>>>> > > >> >> your >>>>> > > >> >> goal without having taken good care of your critical eye, >>>>> for it is the >>>>> > > >> >> root that prevents you from being blinded.
>>>>> > > >> >> Education does not deliver knowledge or facts - Google or my >>>>> newspaper >>>>> > > >> >> does >>>>> > > >> >> that. In a wider sense they also educate me, but more in the >>>>> sense of I >>>>> > > >> >> am >>>>> > > >> >> using their services with the intention to get access to >>>>> information >>>>> > > >> >> and >>>>> > > >> >> not in the sense that I wish to get formed in their image.
>>>>> > > >> >> I see a big difference in eastern and western understanding >>>>> of what >>>>> > > >> >> education means.
>>>>> > > >> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > > >> >> > Education, leading to some wisdom in which our critical >>>>> view may take >>>>> > > >> >> > root, takes time... yes, Knowledge >>> Attitude >>> >>>>> Application >>> >>>>> > > >> >> > Skills involves a process of incubation, and Time.
>>>>> > > >> >> > Now, the time required for specific knowledge-to-skill >>>>> acquisition >>>>> > > >> >> > process to complete differs with different people, for a >>>>> variety of >>>>> > > >> >> > reasons and factors involved.
>>>>> > > >> >> > So, the society - education industry - only promises to >>>>> deliver the >>>>> > > >> >> > knowledge, leaving our any committment to orienting the >>>>> student's >>>>> > > >> >> > attitude, willing to apply and learn from it, and its >>>>> maturation into >>>>> > > >> >> > an integrated perspective and life skills.
>>>>> > > >> >> > The education just delivers the knowledge, the " facts," >>>>> to meet a >>>>> > > >> >> > schedule. What a stated " fact " means, in association >>>>> with others >>>>> > > >> >> > stated and unstated, is upto the student to discover.
>>>>> > > >> >> > It may happen tommorow, take a lifetime, or may never >>>>> emerge !
>>>>> > > >> >> > On Apr 14, 3:01 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > > >> >> > > I think education is a mixing pot. Remove the social >>>>> factors and I >>>>> > > >> >> > > think US public education is good, here in the states we >>>>> believe in >>>>> > > >> >> > > solving social problems by expanding the prison system. >>>>> o.0 The >>>>> > > >> >> > > solutions I keep hearing from people in the past year >>>>> are bizarre, >>>>> > > >> >> > > vigilante militia with public executions sort of stuff. >>>>> It makes me >>>>> > > >> >> > > wonder if it's a meme I'm missing or something. Anyway.. >>>>> back to >>>>> > > >> >> > > topic.
>>>>> > > >> >> > > Who has the attitude that it is a waste of time: kids, >>>>> parents, >>>>> > > >> >> > > teachers? I imagine modernizing a largely rural or >>>>> isolated >>>>> > > >> >> > > population >>>>> > > >> >> > > would have some resistance, I'd say give it a few >>>>> generations to >>>>> > > >> >> > > get >>>>> > > >> >> > > going and put a lot of effort in recycling their >>>>> traditional >>>>> > > >> >> > > community >>>>> > > >> >> > > resources. If it is a boilerplate political maneuver >>>>> there is still >>>>> > > >> >> > > social gain but I would worry about increasing >>>>> resentment and >>>>> > > >> >> > > culture >>>>> > > >> >> > > clash. The roots of education predate and transcend >>>>> institutional >>>>> > > >> >> > > bureaucracy and the primary factors revolve around >>>>> family and >>>>> > > >> >> > > community, a progressive surge could propel innovative >>>>> strategies >>>>> > > >> >> > > but >>>>> > > >> >> > > I think it also could decimate a culture or weaken it's >>>>> ability to >>>>> > > >> >> > > adapt and outpace growing pains/challenges.
>>>>> > > >> >> > > This is an interesting topic pol, more observations >>>>> please.
>>>>> > > >> >> > > > Recently, i was part of some filed work in a village >>>>> ... we were >>>>> > > >> >> > > > looking into primary education there.... well.. while >>>>> doing the >>>>> > > >> >> > > > report.. i thought i couldnt really understand >>>>> education.. >>>>> > > >> >> > > > clearly >>>>> > > >> >> > > > what works for the city kids wouldnt work for those in >>>>> the rural >>>>> > > >> >> > > > side..most of them do think theyre wasting their >>>>> time...teachers >>>>> > > >> >> > > > hate >>>>> > > >> >> > > > the kids kids hate the teachers..everyone is >>>>> bitching... the
I raised two boys who both enjoyed sports and one played football in
college. There are many levels of learning involved, including
thinking skills of predicting the opponents plays and adapting to what
is going on during the play within the rules of the game. Learning to
strengthen and condition the body for maximum performance is something
that seems to carry beyond the age of sports participation. Teamwork
and respect for ones team and other teams, for me, was probably the
most important thing they learned and in fact, they taught me a few
things about it while they played.
That is not to say that the things you point out don't occur, Allan.
I think bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do, as I
watched kids who were bullied at home grow up to do the same. The
real crime is that we know people in our communities that bully their
kids and are powerless to do anything about it, other than the
opportune comment to the parent which often brings unintended results
on the child. What we tolerate around us in terms of human behavior
often creates the things we later condemn. that tolerance is
sometimes our own blind spot, sometimes social conditioning and shared
moral code.
On Apr 18, 2:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Education needs more financial support not less.. and is a severe
> problem.. most of which comes from the community failing to meet the needs
> of educational support and their lack of willingness to pay the cost they
> could start with by making pay equal that of top executives..
> to encourage the best and brightest to go into that profession ,, starting
> wages should be at say $50,000.oo to $60,000.oo
> you will start getting the top minds which is desperately needed..
> ***** lol ***** response ****
> wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery.?.? well Actually I think it
> does just the opposite it increases it. The jocks become school approved
> and blessed adolescent thugs oops I mean bullies.. school honors
> their activities as are blessed by the school including bulling,, commonly
> known as the blind eye..
> I do know people that have benefited from sports programst,, like a college
> education but those people seem to have been forced to use the hated
> sports as the way to get the education they needed.. and what about the
> children seriously injured doing these activities and then covered up these
> problems so they are never hear of again... you don't want to disturb
> their prize program for encouraging adolescent thuggery.
> Allan
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of low
> > expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some
> > teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education system can
> > fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do you make
> > a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and if you
> > have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders to deal
> > with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different needs
> > and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works for
> > one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always favored
> > the Montessori method for primary schooling.
> > Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those willing
> > and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not ok to
> > steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney off to
> > "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of this
> > kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right
> > encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves
> > eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the
> > learning of more well behaved children.
> > Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a
> > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
> > dj
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com>wrote:
> >> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and
> >> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base
> >> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to
> >> teach
> >> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and
> >> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down
> >> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We
> >> should be
> >> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more
> >> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain
> >> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these
> >> days.
> >> > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such
> >> > decline.
> >> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the
> >> impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society
> >> not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or
> >> else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off
> >> the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations
> >> and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section
> >> going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying
> >> socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and
> >> familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite
> >> present across the board. What we have is a society composed of
> >> psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly
> >> aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in
> >> environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to
> >> human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard.
> >> But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach
> >> solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> >> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive
> >> > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only
> >> > thing."
> >> I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents,
> >> as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge
> >> with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the
> >> mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in
> >> both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a
> >> wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic
> >> oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily
> >> justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding
> >> attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social
> >> reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is
> >> what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded
> >> tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that
> >> attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> >> We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put
> >> forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper
> >> Vigilance.
> >> > dj
> >> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Absolutely...
> >> >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation,
> >> >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> >> >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not
> >> but
> >> >> ill still
> >> >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem,
> >> of
> >> >> this
> >> >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really
> >> >> dissappointed
> >> >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in
> >> trying
> >> >> to make
> >> >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i
> >> can
> >> >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was
> >> >> only after
> >> >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it
> >> came
> >> >> like a
> >> >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they
> >> feeding me
> >> >> in
> >> >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but
> >> giving
> >> >> time to
> >> >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I
> >> think
> >> >> it'll
> >> >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger
> >> generation.. I
> >> >> think..
> >> >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own
> >> >> > > > > time..
I was thinking about this angle also, Molly. I figure sports started
as grooming the best hunters and warriors and evolved into public
entertainment- the Colosseum, the tournaments, etc. It does nuture
team spirit which is helpful in business, warfare and social
loyalties- but it also stresses winning and defeat for the losers. It
does have rules/ codes of conduct- but so do street gangs and
criminals, politics. Our USA sports have become very Hollywood-like
with celebrity status and huge salaries- very beyond the reach of the
average person. Many love sports as entertainment and a sense of
identity as a fan. Maybe it is almost like a religion.
As for this bully business, I think it reflects the breakdown of
social graces which have always been rather fragile anyway.
On Apr 18, 6:31 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I raised two boys who both enjoyed sports and one played football in
> college. There are many levels of learning involved, including
> thinking skills of predicting the opponents plays and adapting to what
> is going on during the play within the rules of the game. Learning to
> strengthen and condition the body for maximum performance is something
> that seems to carry beyond the age of sports participation. Teamwork
> and respect for ones team and other teams, for me, was probably the
> most important thing they learned and in fact, they taught me a few
> things about it while they played.
> That is not to say that the things you point out don't occur, Allan.
> I think bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do, as I
> watched kids who were bullied at home grow up to do the same. The
> real crime is that we know people in our communities that bully their
> kids and are powerless to do anything about it, other than the
> opportune comment to the parent which often brings unintended results
> on the child. What we tolerate around us in terms of human behavior
> often creates the things we later condemn. that tolerance is
> sometimes our own blind spot, sometimes social conditioning and shared
> moral code.
> On Apr 18, 2:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Education needs more financial support not less.. and is a severe
> > problem.. most of which comes from the community failing to meet the needs
> > of educational support and their lack of willingness to pay the cost they
> > could start with by making pay equal that of top executives..
> > to encourage the best and brightest to go into that profession ,, starting
> > wages should be at say $50,000.oo to $60,000.oo
> > you will start getting the top minds which is desperately needed..
> > ***** lol ***** response ****
> > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery.?.? well Actually I think it
> > does just the opposite it increases it. The jocks become school approved
> > and blessed adolescent thugs oops I mean bullies.. school honors
> > their activities as are blessed by the school including bulling,, commonly
> > known as the blind eye..
> > I do know people that have benefited from sports programst,, like a college
> > education but those people seem to have been forced to use the hated
> > sports as the way to get the education they needed.. and what about the
> > children seriously injured doing these activities and then covered up these
> > problems so they are never hear of again... you don't want to disturb
> > their prize program for encouraging adolescent thuggery.
> > Allan
> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of low
> > > expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some
> > > teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education system can
> > > fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do you make
> > > a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and if you
> > > have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders to deal
> > > with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different needs
> > > and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works for
> > > one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always favored
> > > the Montessori method for primary schooling.
> > > Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those willing
> > > and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not ok to
> > > steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney off to
> > > "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of this
> > > kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right
> > > encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves
> > > eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the
> > > learning of more well behaved children.
> > > Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a
> > > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
> > > dj
> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > >> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and
> > >> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base
> > >> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to
> > >> teach
> > >> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and
> > >> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down
> > >> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We
> > >> should be
> > >> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more
> > >> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain
> > >> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these
> > >> days.
> > >> > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such
> > >> > decline.
> > >> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the
> > >> impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society
> > >> not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or
> > >> else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off
> > >> the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations
> > >> and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section
> > >> going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying
> > >> socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and
> > >> familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite
> > >> present across the board. What we have is a society composed of
> > >> psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly
> > >> aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in
> > >> environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to
> > >> human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard.
> > >> But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach
> > >> solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> > >> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive
> > >> > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only
> > >> > thing."
> > >> I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents,
> > >> as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge
> > >> with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the
> > >> mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in
> > >> both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a
> > >> wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic
> > >> oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily
> > >> justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding
> > >> attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social
> > >> reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is
> > >> what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded
> > >> tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that
> > >> attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> > >> We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put
> > >> forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper
> > >> Vigilance.
> > >> > dj
> > >> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> Absolutely...
> > >> >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation,
> > >> >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> > >> >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not
> > >> but
> > >> >> ill still
> > >> >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem,
> > >> of
> > >> >> this
> > >> >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really
> > >> >> dissappointed
> > >> >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board
> Sorry Don these 'dogs'don't qualify as their heads are not that of dogs
> that are shown in the ancient manuscripts.. they definitely showed men
> with heads that look like those of dogs.. hence the name as for fishmen
> one was caught and then to government approved methods of torture to bring
> out the truth.. wait a minute according to the news these methods have not
> changed.. maybe that is what make man civilized is the ability to torture
> and approve of these actions.
> Allan
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:56 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 1:39 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> gabby humanity is till a work in progress,, wonder what ever happened to
> >> the dogmen or the fishmen,, then there is the airmen. well you never hear
> >> of them now.. the oddity was they were recorded not myth.. twas interesting
> >> Allan
> >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 11:51 AM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> In a dynamic system that is identifying/defining its static elements a
> >>> medival mind is something negative whereas the mid-evil mind emphasizes its
> >>> work-in-progress aspect. In experiencing oneself in a static system one is
> >>> not given that freedom of interpretation.
> >>> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> I watched a program on the mid evil mind and how they view things..
> >>>> one of the things that was looked at education and part of it involved
> >>>> islam ,, I always knew that number system was arabic in origin what i
> >>>> found interesting is their interest in the
> >>>> ancient philosophers and mathematics as well as other sciences,, but they
> >>>> did not give much detail on that end..
> >>>> My question is what happened to islam that it stopped its interest
> >>>> science and mathematics is one of the truly pure sciences it seems all that
> >>>> islam It seems there is no interest in harmony and
> >>>> co-existence is interested in is murder and forcing people to
> >>>> live their set of rules which is contrary to western law.
> >>>> Allan
> >>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:28 PM, rigsy03 <rigs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>> The education system has become a means of sorting out the population
> >>>>> and not necessarily a government scam anymore than one that eases the
> >>>>> selections of politics, business, society and so on. It was probably
> >>>>> tidier in the Middle Ages with an overall system of belief and
> >>>>> practice.
> >>>>> On Apr 15, 10:36 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > I'm struck that universal education has failed us. I'd go for
> >>>>> > deschooling and have education after 14 voluntary and much more
> >>>>> > related to practice (not necessarily work). Current university
> >>>>> > programmes should be available on television and available free with
> >>>>> > Internet supervision from university hubs where academics work in the
> >>>>> > community and social and sports events are also civic rather than
> >>>>> > separated as now. Education is currently a government scam and an
> >>>>> > export scam.
> >>>>> > On Apr 15, 3:23 pm, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > > I oscillate between visionary and lunatic fringe. If one liners
> >>>>> paid
> >>>>> > > the bills I'd be a millionaire, the exercise comes in the
> >>>>> unpacking so
> >>>>> > > a wee bit of sarcasm may be in order. Thanks Vam ;-)
> >>>>> > > On 4/15/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > > > Facebook has "Like", Twitter would allow "Retweet", and I could
> >>>>> re-pin
> >>>>> > > > on Pinterest ...
> >>>>> > > > Let's say, I am doing all three now !
> >>>>> > > > On Apr 15, 8:57 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > > >> It is helpful to have an idea of process and structure and it
> >>>>> seems to
> >>>>> > > >> me you are both talking about a qualitative/individual aspect to
> >>>>> > > >> education. This is an important focus, I think all else follows
> >>>>> from
> >>>>> > > >> the challenges to success to the contributions to society-
> >>>>> every last
> >>>>> > > >> ounce of potential is in the individual. All else is logistics
> >>>>> of
> >>>>> > > >> scale, systematization, and mechanization.
> >>>>> > > >> On 4/14/12, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > > >> > Good. But my response has nothing to do eastern or western
> >>>>> anything.
> >>>>> > > >> > It's me. I regard any education as nothing if not leading to
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> > > >> > evolution of something within me which gives a me perspective
> >>>>> to world
> >>>>> > > >> > and life, a values system I can touch to know what the thing
> >>>>> or matter
> >>>>> > > >> > before me means, to me.
> >>>>> > > >> > That should leave all the bubbles with you. And the yeast...
> >>>>> > > >> > On Apr 14, 8:49 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > > >> >> It looks you took Ash's mixing pot image too literal, Vam.
> >>>>> You don't
> >>>>> > > >> >> bring
> >>>>> > > >> >> order into a mixing pot by sequencing bubble terms - add
> >>>>> some yeast if
> >>>>> > > >> >> you
> >>>>> > > >> >> want to create bubbles and get your new order!
> >>>>> > > >> >> If wisdom is what you wish to attain, you will not be able
> >>>>> to achieve
> >>>>> > > >> >> your
> >>>>> > > >> >> goal without having taken good care of your critical eye,
> >>>>> for it is the
> >>>>> > > >> >> root that prevents you from being blinded.
> >>>>> > > >> >> Education does not deliver knowledge or facts - Google or my
> >>>>> newspaper
> >>>>> > > >> >> does
> >>>>> > > >> >> that. In a wider sense they also educate me, but more in the
> >>>>> sense of I
> >>>>> > > >> >> am
> >>>>> > > >> >> using their services with the intention to get access to
> >>>>> information
> >>>>> > > >> >> and
> >>>>> > > >> >> not in the sense that I wish to get formed in their image.
> >>>>> > > >> >> I see a big difference in eastern and western understanding
> >>>>> of what
> >>>>> > > >> >> education means.
> >>>>> > > >> >> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 5:25 AM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> > > >> >> > Education, leading to some wisdom in which our critical
> >>>>> view may take
> >>>>> > > >> >> > root, takes time... yes, Knowledge >>> Attitude >>>
> >>>>> Application >>>
> >>>>> > > >> >> > Skills involves a process of incubation, and Time.
> >>>>> > > >> >> > Now, the time required for specific knowledge-to-skill
> >>>>> acquisition
> >>>>> > > >> >> > process to complete differs with different people, for a
> >>>>> variety of
> >>>>> > > >> >> > reasons and factors involved.
> >>>>> > > >> >> > So, the society - education industry - only promises to
> >>>>> deliver the
> >>>>> > > >> >> > knowledge, leaving our any committment to orienting the
> >>>>> student's
> >>>>> > > >> >> > attitude, willing to apply and learn from it, and its
> >>>>> maturation into
> >>>>> > > >> >> > an integrated perspective and life skills.
> >>>>> > > >> >> > The education just delivers the knowledge, the " facts,"
> >>>>> to meet a
> >>>>> > > >> >> > schedule. What a stated " fact " means, in association
> >>>>> with others
> >>>>> > > >> >> > stated and unstated, is upto the student to discover.
> >>>>> > > >> >> > It may happen tommorow, take a lifetime, or may never
> >>>>> emerge !
> >>>>> > > >> >> > On Apr 14, 3:01 am, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > I think education is a mixing pot. Remove the social
> >>>>> factors and I
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > think US public education is good, here in the states we
> >>>>> believe in
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > solving social problems by expanding the prison system.
> >>>>> o.0 The
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > solutions I keep hearing from people in the past year
> >>>>> are bizarre,
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > vigilante militia with public executions sort of stuff.
> >>>>> It makes me
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > wonder if it's a meme I'm missing or something. Anyway..
> >>>>> back to
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > topic.
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > Who has the attitude that it is a waste of time: kids,
> >>>>> parents,
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > teachers? I imagine modernizing a largely rural or
> >>>>> isolated
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > population
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > would have some resistance, I'd say give it a few
> >>>>> generations to
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > get
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > going and put a lot of effort in recycling their
> >>>>> traditional
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > community
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > resources. If it is a boilerplate political maneuver
> >>>>> there is still
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > social gain but I would worry about increasing
> >>>>> resentment and
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > culture
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > clash. The roots of education predate and transcend
> >>>>> institutional
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > bureaucracy and the primary factors revolve around
> >>>>> family and
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > community, a progressive surge could propel innovative
> >>>>> strategies
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > but
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > I think it also could decimate a culture or weaken it's
> >>>>> ability to
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > adapt and outpace growing pains/challenges.
> >>>>> > > >> >> > > This is an interesting topic pol, more observations
> >>>>> please.
But home is pretty barren for some- no books, music, art, learning
toys and games, etc.//I seen both sides and both have problems in the
short and long run.//A missing or deadbeat parent is also a problem.
On Apr 17, 6:46 pm, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of low
> expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some
> teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education system can
> fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do you make
> a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and if you
> have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders to deal
> with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different needs
> and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works for
> one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always favored
> the Montessori method for primary schooling.
> Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those willing
> and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not ok to
> steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney off to
> "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of this
> kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right
> encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves
> eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the
> learning of more well behaved children.
> Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a wonderful
> outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
> dj
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and
> > > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base
> > > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used to
> > teach
> > > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics and
> > > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed down
> > > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We should
> > be
> > > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need more
> > > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain
> > > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these days.
> > > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in such
> > > decline.
> > I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the
> > impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society
> > not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or
> > else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off
> > the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations
> > and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section
> > going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying
> > socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and
> > familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite
> > present across the board. What we have is a society composed of
> > psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly
> > aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in
> > environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to
> > human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard.
> > But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach
> > solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> > > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. Competitive
> > > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the only
> > > thing."
> > I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents,
> > as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge
> > with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the
> > mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in
> > both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a
> > wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic
> > oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily
> > justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding
> > attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social
> > reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is
> > what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded
> > tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that
> > attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> > We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put
> > forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper
> > Vigilance.
> > > dj
> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Absolutely...
> > >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation,
> > >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> > >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or not but
> > >> ill still
> > >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar problem,
> > of
> > >> this
> > >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am really
> > >> dissappointed
> > >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in
> > trying
> > >> to make
> > >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean it.. i
> > can
> > >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it was
> > >> only after
> > >> > > > > going to college that i began to think about stuff.. and it came
> > >> like a
> > >> > > > > bullet train.. and i was thinking.. what crap were they feeding
> > me
> > >> in
> > >> > > > > school. The thing is.. not making the curriculum easy.. but
> > giving
> > >> time to
> > >> > > > > the essential things...I cant think of alternative ways...I
> > think
> > >> it'll
> > >> > > > > always be controversial ..what to teach the younger
> > generation.. I
> > >> think..
> > >> > > > > what worked for me in college was that i got a lot of my own
> > >> > > > > time..
> > >> > > > > >> > > You may be interested in reading the article from which I
> > >> have taken
> > >> > > > > >> the
> > >> > > > > >> > > following excerpt:
> > >> > > > > >> > > "[...] The truly educated become conscious. They become
> > >> self-aware.
> > >> > > > > >> They do
> > >> > > > > >> > > not lie to themselves. They do not pretend that fraud is
> > >> moral or that
> > >> > > > > >> > > corporate greed is good. They do not claim that the
> > demands
> > >> of the
> > >> > > > > >> > > marketplace can morally justify the hunger of children or
> > >> denial of
> > >> > > > > >> medical
> > >> > > > > >> > > care to the sick. They do not throw 6 million families
> > from
> > >> their
> > >> > > > > >> homes as
> > >> > > > > >> > > the cost of doing business. Thought is a dialogue with
> > >> one’s inner
> > >> > > > > >> self.
> > >> > > > > >> > > Those who think ask questions, questions those in
> > authority
> > >> do not
> > >> > > > > >> want
> > >> > > > > >> > > asked. They remember who we are, where we come from and
> > >> where we
> > >> > > > > >> should go.
> > >> > > > > >> > > They remain eternally skeptical and distrustful of power.
> > >> And they
> > >> > > > > >> know
> > >> > > > > >> > > that this moral independence is the only protection from
> > >> the radical
> > >> > > > > >> evil
> > >> > > > > >> > > that results from collective unconsciousness. The
> > capacity
> > >> to think
> > >> > > > > >> is the
> > >> > > > > >> > > only bulwark against any centralized authority that seeks
> > >> to impose
> > >> > > > > >> > > mindless obedience. There is a huge difference, as
> > Socrates
> > >> > > > > >> understood,
> > >> > > > > >> > > between teaching people what to think and teaching them
> > how
> > >> to think.
> > >> > > > > >> Those
> > >> > > > > >> > > who are endowed with a moral conscience refuse to commit
> > >> crimes, even
> > >> > > > > >> those
> > >> > > > > >> > > sanctioned by the corporate state, because they do not in
> > >> the end
> > >> > > > > >> want to
> > >> > > > > >> > > live with criminals—themselves.
> > >> > > > > >> > > Advertisement
> > >> > > > > >> > > “It is better to be at odds with the whole world than,
> > >> being one, to
> > >> > > > > >> be at
Sorry Molly I was one of the kids bullied.. i lived on a farm .. didn't end till the leaded of the group took me on in PE wresling and I got a hole of the back of his neck.. I milked by hand and my fingers had a reasonable amount of strength he did not want to endure.. he promised to leave me alone.. (he was a real ass hole,, ) I have no respect for highschool sports.. and if parants want to suport it that is fine.,, but it should not be supported by the taxpayer.. I see you did not address the injured players.. Allan
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > I raised two boys who both enjoyed sports and one played football in > college. There are many levels of learning involved, including > thinking skills of predicting the opponents plays and adapting to what > is going on during the play within the rules of the game. Learning to > strengthen and condition the body for maximum performance is something > that seems to carry beyond the age of sports participation. Teamwork > and respect for ones team and other teams, for me, was probably the > most important thing they learned and in fact, they taught me a few > things about it while they played.
> That is not to say that the things you point out don't occur, Allan. > I think bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do, as I > watched kids who were bullied at home grow up to do the same. The > real crime is that we know people in our communities that bully their > kids and are powerless to do anything about it, other than the > opportune comment to the parent which often brings unintended results > on the child. What we tolerate around us in terms of human behavior > often creates the things we later condemn. that tolerance is > sometimes our own blind spot, sometimes social conditioning and shared > moral code.
> On Apr 18, 2:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Education needs more financial support not less.. and is a severe > > problem.. most of which comes from the community failing to meet the > needs > > of educational support and their lack of willingness to pay the cost > they > > could start with by making pay equal that of top executives.. > > to encourage the best and brightest to go into that profession ,, > starting > > wages should be at say $50,000.oo to $60,000.oo > > you will start getting the top minds which is desperately needed..
> > ***** lol ***** response ****
> > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery.?.? well Actually I think it > > does just the opposite it increases it. The jocks become school approved > > and blessed adolescent thugs oops I mean bullies.. school honors > > their activities as are blessed by the school including bulling,, > commonly > > known as the blind eye..
> > I do know people that have benefited from sports programst,, like a > college > > education but those people seem to have been forced to use the hated > > sports as the way to get the education they needed.. and what about the > > children seriously injured doing these activities and then covered up > these > > problems so they are never hear of again... you don't want to disturb > > their prize program for encouraging adolescent thuggery. > > Allan
> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of > low > > > expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some > > > teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education system > can > > > fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do you > make > > > a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and > if you > > > have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders to > deal > > > with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different > needs > > > and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works > for > > > one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always > favored > > > the Montessori method for primary schooling.
> > > Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those > willing > > > and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not > ok to > > > steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney > off to > > > "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of > this > > > kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right > > > encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves > > > eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the > > > learning of more well behaved children.
> > > Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a > > > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
> > > dj
> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com > >wrote:
> > >> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) and > > >> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these base > > >> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used > to > > >> teach > > >> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics > and > > >> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed > down > > >> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We > > >> should be > > >> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We need > more > > >> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain > > >> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these > > >> days. > > >> > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in > such > > >> > decline.
> > >> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the > > >> impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of society > > >> not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or > > >> else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off > > >> the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations > > >> and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural cross-section > > >> going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying > > >> socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and > > >> familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite > > >> present across the board. What we have is a society composed of > > >> psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly > > >> aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in > > >> environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to > > >> human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard. > > >> But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach > > >> solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> > >> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. > Competitive > > >> > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the > only > > >> > thing."
> > >> I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents, > > >> as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge > > >> with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the > > >> mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in > > >> both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a > > >> wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic > > >> oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily > > >> justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding > > >> attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social > > >> reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that is > > >> what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm longwinded > > >> tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with that > > >> attitude who can take serious questions into account.
> > >> We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put > > >> forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper > > >> Vigilance.
> > >> > dj
> > >> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> Absolutely...
> > >> >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, > > >> >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
> > >> >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or > not > > >> but > > >> >> ill still > > >> >> > > > > reply to him... even we in our country face a similar > problem, > > >> of > > >> >> this > > >> >> > > > > robotic teaching... senseless rote learning. But i am > really > > >> >> dissappointed > > >> >> > > > > with our syllabus change our school board did.. i think in > > >> trying > > >> >> to make > > >> >> > > > > stuff easier.. they are giving the people trash..i mean > it.. i > > >> can > > >> >> > > > > confidently say.. I did not learn anything in school .. it > was > > >> >> only after > > >> >> > > > > going to college that i began to think
There is a lot of things you don't want to address if you want to keep up the theorem "bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do". But then we've learned to take it functionally sporty, haven't we?
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote: > Sorry Molly I was one of the kids bullied.. i lived on a farm .. > didn't end till the leaded of the group took me on in PE wresling and I > got a hole of the back of his neck.. I milked by hand and my fingers had > a reasonable amount of strength he did not want to endure.. he promised to > leave me alone.. (he was a real ass hole,, ) I have no respect for > highschool sports.. and if parants want to suport it that is fine.,, > but it should not be supported by the taxpayer.. I see you did not > address the injured players.. > Allan
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I raised two boys who both enjoyed sports and one played football in >> college. There are many levels of learning involved, including >> thinking skills of predicting the opponents plays and adapting to what >> is going on during the play within the rules of the game. Learning to >> strengthen and condition the body for maximum performance is something >> that seems to carry beyond the age of sports participation. Teamwork >> and respect for ones team and other teams, for me, was probably the >> most important thing they learned and in fact, they taught me a few >> things about it while they played.
>> That is not to say that the things you point out don't occur, Allan. >> I think bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do, as I >> watched kids who were bullied at home grow up to do the same. The >> real crime is that we know people in our communities that bully their >> kids and are powerless to do anything about it, other than the >> opportune comment to the parent which often brings unintended results >> on the child. What we tolerate around us in terms of human behavior >> often creates the things we later condemn. that tolerance is >> sometimes our own blind spot, sometimes social conditioning and shared >> moral code.
>> On Apr 18, 2:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Education needs more financial support not less.. and is a severe >> > problem.. most of which comes from the community failing to meet the >> needs >> > of educational support and their lack of willingness to pay the cost >> they >> > could start with by making pay equal that of top executives.. >> > to encourage the best and brightest to go into that profession ,, >> starting >> > wages should be at say $50,000.oo to $60,000.oo >> > you will start getting the top minds which is desperately needed..
>> > ***** lol ***** response ****
>> > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery.?.? well Actually I think it >> > does just the opposite it increases it. The jocks become school >> approved >> > and blessed adolescent thugs oops I mean bullies.. school honors >> > their activities as are blessed by the school including bulling,, >> commonly >> > known as the blind eye..
>> > I do know people that have benefited from sports programst,, like a >> college >> > education but those people seem to have been forced to use the hated >> > sports as the way to get the education they needed.. and what about >> the >> > children seriously injured doing these activities and then covered up >> these >> > problems so they are never hear of again... you don't want to disturb >> > their prize program for encouraging adolescent thuggery. >> > Allan
>> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > > Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of >> low >> > > expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some >> > > teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education >> system can >> > > fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do you >> make >> > > a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and >> if you >> > > have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders >> to deal >> > > with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different >> needs >> > > and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works >> for >> > > one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always >> favored >> > > the Montessori method for primary schooling.
>> > > Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those >> willing >> > > and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not >> ok to >> > > steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney >> off to >> > > "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of >> this >> > > kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right >> > > encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves >> > > eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the >> > > learning of more well behaved children.
>> > > Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a >> > > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
>> > > dj
>> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com >> >wrote:
>> > >> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) >> and >> > >> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these >> base >> > >> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used >> to >> > >> teach >> > >> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics >> and >> > >> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed >> down >> > >> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We >> > >> should be >> > >> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We >> need more >> > >> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain >> > >> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these >> > >> days. >> > >> > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in >> such >> > >> > decline.
>> > >> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the >> > >> impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of >> society >> > >> not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or >> > >> else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off >> > >> the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations >> > >> and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural >> cross-section >> > >> going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying >> > >> socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and >> > >> familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite >> > >> present across the board. What we have is a society composed of >> > >> psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly >> > >> aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in >> > >> environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to >> > >> human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard. >> > >> But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach >> > >> solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
>> > >> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. >> Competitive >> > >> > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the >> only >> > >> > thing."
>> > >> I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents, >> > >> as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge >> > >> with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the >> > >> mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in >> > >> both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a >> > >> wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic >> > >> oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily >> > >> justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding >> > >> attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social >> > >> reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that >> is >> > >> what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm >> longwinded >> > >> tonight: I like the 'Ideal', but I've rarely run into anyone with >> that >> > >> attitude who can take serious questions into account.
>> > >> We should still have sports either way for the reasons you put >> > >> forward. :) I'm a little bit of Semper Fi plus a huge bit of Semper >> > >> Vigilance.
>> > >> > dj
>> > >> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> >> wrote:
>> > >> >> Absolutely...
>> > >> >> On Apr 17, 3:06 am, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> >> > I think that critical thinking, negotiation/argumentation, >> > >> >> > organization, and information research would be good classes.
>> > >> >> > > > > Umm.. I dont know if Aezen is now a part of the group or >> not >> > >> but >> > >> >> ill still >> > >> >> > > > > reply to him... even we in
What I meant was, sometimes participating in sports is a bully's best
chance of getting over the behavior because a good coach will not
tolerate the behavior and refer the athlete to social services. Seen
it happen effectively many times. The hero/victim/villain drama is
one that plays out when developmentally, we need to explore each role
and get beyond role playing in drama. The warrior learns he can
deal the fatal blow before he learns the compassion necessary to not
issue the fatal blow with a greater perspective. I do not mean to
excuse bullying. But to address the child bully without addressing
our societal acceptance/denial of child abuse to blame the child. The
issue is bigger and needs to be addressed on every level, including
that part in each of us that we play when we we find this in our
experience, or have a charge about past experience.
On Apr 18, 3:58 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a lot of things you don't want to address if you want to keep up
> the theorem "bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do". But then
> we've learned to take it functionally sporty, haven't we?
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Sorry Molly I was one of the kids bullied.. i lived on a farm ..
> > didn't end till the leaded of the group took me on in PE wresling and I
> > got a hole of the back of his neck.. I milked by hand and my fingers had
> > a reasonable amount of strength he did not want to endure.. he promised to
> > leave me alone.. (he was a real ass hole,, ) I have no respect for
> > highschool sports.. and if parants want to suport it that is fine.,,
> > but it should not be supported by the taxpayer.. I see you did not
> > address the injured players..
> > Allan
> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I raised two boys who both enjoyed sports and one played football in
> >> college. There are many levels of learning involved, including
> >> thinking skills of predicting the opponents plays and adapting to what
> >> is going on during the play within the rules of the game. Learning to
> >> strengthen and condition the body for maximum performance is something
> >> that seems to carry beyond the age of sports participation. Teamwork
> >> and respect for ones team and other teams, for me, was probably the
> >> most important thing they learned and in fact, they taught me a few
> >> things about it while they played.
> >> That is not to say that the things you point out don't occur, Allan.
> >> I think bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do, as I
> >> watched kids who were bullied at home grow up to do the same. The
> >> real crime is that we know people in our communities that bully their
> >> kids and are powerless to do anything about it, other than the
> >> opportune comment to the parent which often brings unintended results
> >> on the child. What we tolerate around us in terms of human behavior
> >> often creates the things we later condemn. that tolerance is
> >> sometimes our own blind spot, sometimes social conditioning and shared
> >> moral code.
> >> On Apr 18, 2:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Education needs more financial support not less.. and is a severe
> >> > problem.. most of which comes from the community failing to meet the
> >> needs
> >> > of educational support and their lack of willingness to pay the cost
> >> they
> >> > could start with by making pay equal that of top executives..
> >> > to encourage the best and brightest to go into that profession ,,
> >> starting
> >> > wages should be at say $50,000.oo to $60,000.oo
> >> > you will start getting the top minds which is desperately needed..
> >> > ***** lol ***** response ****
> >> > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery.?.? well Actually I think it
> >> > does just the opposite it increases it. The jocks become school
> >> approved
> >> > and blessed adolescent thugs oops I mean bullies.. school honors
> >> > their activities as are blessed by the school including bulling,,
> >> commonly
> >> > known as the blind eye..
> >> > I do know people that have benefited from sports programst,, like a
> >> college
> >> > education but those people seem to have been forced to use the hated
> >> > sports as the way to get the education they needed.. and what about
> >> the
> >> > children seriously injured doing these activities and then covered up
> >> these
> >> > problems so they are never hear of again... you don't want to disturb
> >> > their prize program for encouraging adolescent thuggery.
> >> > Allan
> >> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of
> >> low
> >> > > expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some
> >> > > teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education
> >> system can
> >> > > fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do you
> >> make
> >> > > a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and
> >> if you
> >> > > have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders
> >> to deal
> >> > > with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different
> >> needs
> >> > > and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works
> >> for
> >> > > one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always
> >> favored
> >> > > the Montessori method for primary schooling.
> >> > > Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those
> >> willing
> >> > > and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not
> >> ok to
> >> > > steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney
> >> off to
> >> > > "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of
> >> this
> >> > > kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right
> >> > > encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves
> >> > > eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the
> >> > > learning of more well behaved children.
> >> > > Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a
> >> > > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
> >> > > dj
> >> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com
> >> >wrote:
> >> > >> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics)
> >> and
> >> > >> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these
> >> base
> >> > >> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools used
> >> to
> >> > >> teach
> >> > >> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics
> >> and
> >> > >> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed
> >> down
> >> > >> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We
> >> > >> should be
> >> > >> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We
> >> need more
> >> > >> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain
> >> > >> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive these
> >> > >> days.
> >> > >> > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in
> >> such
> >> > >> > decline.
> >> > >> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the
> >> > >> impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of
> >> society
> >> > >> not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or
> >> > >> else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids off
> >> > >> the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison populations
> >> > >> and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural
> >> cross-section
> >> > >> going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying
> >> > >> socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and
> >> > >> familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite
> >> > >> present across the board. What we have is a society composed of
> >> > >> psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about mostly
> >> > >> aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime in
> >> > >> environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to
> >> > >> human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that regard.
> >> > >> But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach
> >> > >> solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
> >> > >> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important.
> >> Competitive
> >> > >> > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's the
> >> only
> >> > >> > thing."
> >> > >> I am skeptical of the character traits required to defeat opponents,
> >> > >> as in war "all is fair".. but I agree on learning to face challenge
> >> > >> with an attitude of expectation and consider sports on the
> >> > >> mid-spectrum of character building skills. Success can go too far in
> >> > >> both directions, whether hopping on the highs of success leaving a
> >> > >> wake of failures or becoming despotic and building nepotistic
> >> > >> oligopolies in life- both are negative parasitic behaviors easily
> >> > >> justified and blindingly so. You are on the money though regarding
> >> > >> attitude I think, but it would take a lot of hard social
> >> > >> reconstruction- otherwise it just sounds like dog eat dog, and that
> >> is
> >> > >> what we have now (albeit a more pacified version). Damn I'm
> >> longwinded
> >> > >> tonight: I
On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:58 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote: > There is a lot of things you don't want to address if you want to keep up > the theorem "bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do". But > then we've learned to take it functionally sporty, haven't we?
> Molly has a point Gabby. It's not the wrestling or football or the ever
popular 'dodge ball' that make the bully although I must admit these games(especially dodge ball) attract the sadist in us all. Is there a greater feeling of power then flipping some other dude on his ass and then sitting on him for 3 seconds? I think not...unless it's creaming some dude in the kisser with a 90 mile an hour big red rubber ball. Hell yes. (I'm kidding!)
Molly's point about bullies getting bullied at home also rings true with me. Bullies are mostly very unhappy not well adjusted people. Perhaps, maybe just maybe, if some of these abused kids can get some self respect playing a sport their attitude will improve. Let me add that I see a difference between hazing and bullying. The former is a long standing tradition that helps mold new members into the fold if done with restraint. It can also weed out the less hardy individuals that might be more suited to, say, the chess club instead of a team sport. The latter is simply to torture the weak for fun and no other reason.
I will agree that a better ALLOCATION of funds is in order for our educational system. The waste is mind boggling. We build palaces fortified like fortresses and in some cases prisons and serve breakfast and lunch and pay administrators enormous salaries to do what? Always ask for more money next year. I say lets teach our kids in trailers. Or better yet rent some of the empty shopping malls and/or business and retail space that's become available since the Recession. Let's have the kids clean up and do routine maintenance with the janitors in charge. It builds character. Wouldn't hurt for the teachers to sweat right along with the students occasionally. Builds rapport and mutual respect.
Hey I'm just brain storming here but that's the kind of school I hope my grandkids go to. If they do it will be a private school I can tell you that.
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sorry Molly I was one of the kids bullied.. i lived on a farm .. >> didn't end till the leaded of the group took me on in PE wresling and I >> got a hole of the back of his neck.. I milked by hand and my fingers had >> a reasonable amount of strength he did not want to endure.. he promised to >> leave me alone.. (he was a real ass hole,, ) I have no respect for >> highschool sports.. and if parants want to suport it that is fine.,, >> but it should not be supported by the taxpayer.. I see you did not >> address the injured players.. >> Allan
>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I raised two boys who both enjoyed sports and one played football in >>> college. There are many levels of learning involved, including >>> thinking skills of predicting the opponents plays and adapting to what >>> is going on during the play within the rules of the game. Learning to >>> strengthen and condition the body for maximum performance is something >>> that seems to carry beyond the age of sports participation. Teamwork >>> and respect for ones team and other teams, for me, was probably the >>> most important thing they learned and in fact, they taught me a few >>> things about it while they played.
>>> That is not to say that the things you point out don't occur, Allan. >>> I think bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do, as I >>> watched kids who were bullied at home grow up to do the same. The >>> real crime is that we know people in our communities that bully their >>> kids and are powerless to do anything about it, other than the >>> opportune comment to the parent which often brings unintended results >>> on the child. What we tolerate around us in terms of human behavior >>> often creates the things we later condemn. that tolerance is >>> sometimes our own blind spot, sometimes social conditioning and shared >>> moral code.
>>> On Apr 18, 2:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > Education needs more financial support not less.. and is a severe >>> > problem.. most of which comes from the community failing to meet the >>> needs >>> > of educational support and their lack of willingness to pay the cost >>> they >>> > could start with by making pay equal that of top executives.. >>> > to encourage the best and brightest to go into that profession ,, >>> starting >>> > wages should be at say $50,000.oo to $60,000.oo >>> > you will start getting the top minds which is desperately needed..
>>> > ***** lol ***** response ****
>>> > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery.?.? well Actually I think >>> it >>> > does just the opposite it increases it. The jocks become school >>> approved >>> > and blessed adolescent thugs oops I mean bullies.. school honors >>> > their activities as are blessed by the school including bulling,, >>> commonly >>> > known as the blind eye..
>>> > I do know people that have benefited from sports programst,, like a >>> college >>> > education but those people seem to have been forced to use the hated >>> > sports as the way to get the education they needed.. and what about >>> the >>> > children seriously injured doing these activities and then covered up >>> these >>> > problems so they are never hear of again... you don't want to disturb >>> > their prize program for encouraging adolescent thuggery. >>> > Allan
>>> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > > Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry of >>> low >>> > > expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some >>> > > teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education >>> system can >>> > > fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do >>> you make >>> > > a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work and >>> if you >>> > > have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders >>> to deal >>> > > with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different >>> needs >>> > > and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What works >>> for >>> > > one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always >>> favored >>> > > the Montessori method for primary schooling.
>>> > > Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those >>> willing >>> > > and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's not >>> ok to >>> > > steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney >>> off to >>> > > "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline of >>> this >>> > > kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right >>> > > encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves >>> > > eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting the >>> > > learning of more well behaved children.
>>> > > Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a >>> > > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
>>> > > dj
>>> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com >>> >wrote:
>>> > >> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) >>> and >>> > >> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these >>> base >>> > >> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools >>> used to >>> > >> teach >>> > >> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World Economics >>> and >>> > >> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed >>> down >>> > >> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We >>> > >> should be >>> > >> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We >>> need more >>> > >> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to attain >>> > >> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive >>> these >>> > >> days. >>> > >> > It's a crying shame and it's why the U.S. education system is in >>> such >>> > >> > decline.
>>> > >> I am not as experienced as others here in education but I have the >>> > >> impression that the failings we see in education are echoes of >>> society >>> > >> not the other way around. The gov't dole requires kids attend (or >>> > >> else), it is an overworked and underfunded system that keeps kids >>> off >>> > >> the streets and out of the labor market decreasing prison >>> populations >>> > >> and fueling multiple economies. If we look at a cultural >>> cross-section >>> > >> going from inner-city, urban, suburban, rural with varying >>> > >> socio-economic conditions, quality of life, and on to exposure and >>> > >> familiarity with social resources I would say competition is quite >>> > >> present across the board. What we have is a society composed of >>> > >> psychologically maladapted humans frantically scrambling about >>> mostly >>> > >> aimlessly in a post traumatic stupor caused by spending a lifetime >>> in >>> > >> environments that evolved in every way but those that matter most to >>> > >> human beings. One could consider it highly successful in that >>> regard. >>> > >> But that's an opinion (I think), one that doesn't exactly reach >>> > >> solutions but can contribute some emphasis.
>>> > >> > I missed mentioning sports but this is also very important. >>> Competitive >>> > >> > sports is a metaphor for life. "Winning isn't everything; it's >>> the only >>> > >> > thing."
I do see the value to sports,, but sports in the schools absolutely not, sports can teach a a lot of things but they need to be outside of the schools and in clubs like it is over here.. the major reason in school it promotes elitism with the jocks running around in their jackets and measuring their importance as to what they are allowed to get away with strutting around like a bunch of cocks.. with more emphasis on sports than education. this goes right on to the universities.. look at the schools that promote their sports and the justifications for these activities..
Sports need to be out side of schools,,,, believe me I see the amount of sports activities here in Holland and I am amazed. Clubs own their equipment and facilities not supported by taxes.. then children can take part in what they want,, and more importantly the taxpayer does not have to fund these activities.. and the pro football teams (soccer) are having no problem finding top players.
Education needs the best financing available and these funds should not be wasted on sports. and school under no conditions should be rated on their sport teams.. and that includes universities.. schools should be rated on their ability to provide an education,
Education will turn economies around not sports... Allan
On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 1:17 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:58 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There is a lot of things you don't want to address if you want to keep up >> the theorem "bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do". But >> then we've learned to take it functionally sporty, haven't we?
>> Molly has a point Gabby. It's not the wrestling or football or the ever > popular 'dodge ball' that make the bully although I must admit these > games(especially dodge ball) attract the sadist in us all. Is there a > greater feeling of power then flipping some other dude on his ass and then > sitting on him for 3 seconds? I think not...unless it's creaming some dude > in the kisser with a 90 mile an hour big red rubber ball. Hell yes. (I'm > kidding!)
> Molly's point about bullies getting bullied at home also rings true with > me. Bullies are mostly very unhappy not well adjusted people. Perhaps, > maybe just maybe, if some of these abused kids can get some self respect > playing a sport their attitude will improve. Let me add that I see a > difference between hazing and bullying. The former is a long standing > tradition that helps mold new members into the fold if done with restraint. > It can also weed out the less hardy individuals that might be more suited > to, say, the chess club instead of a team sport. The latter is simply to > torture the weak for fun and no other reason.
> I will agree that a better ALLOCATION of funds is in order for our > educational system. The waste is mind boggling. We build palaces fortified > like fortresses and in some cases prisons and serve breakfast and lunch and > pay administrators enormous salaries to do what? Always ask for more money > next year. I say lets teach our kids in trailers. Or better yet rent some > of the empty shopping malls and/or business and retail space that's become > available since the Recession. Let's have the kids clean up and do routine > maintenance with the janitors in charge. It builds character. Wouldn't hurt > for the teachers to sweat right along with the students occasionally. > Builds rapport and mutual respect.
> Hey I'm just brain storming here but that's the kind of school I hope my > grandkids go to. If they do it will be a private school I can tell you > that.
> dj
>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 5:23 PM, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sorry Molly I was one of the kids bullied.. i lived on a farm .. >>> didn't end till the leaded of the group took me on in PE wresling and I >>> got a hole of the back of his neck.. I milked by hand and my fingers had >>> a reasonable amount of strength he did not want to endure.. he promised to >>> leave me alone.. (he was a real ass hole,, ) I have no respect for >>> highschool sports.. and if parants want to suport it that is fine.,, >>> but it should not be supported by the taxpayer.. I see you did not >>> address the injured players.. >>> Allan
>>> On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Molly <mollyb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I raised two boys who both enjoyed sports and one played football in >>>> college. There are many levels of learning involved, including >>>> thinking skills of predicting the opponents plays and adapting to what >>>> is going on during the play within the rules of the game. Learning to >>>> strengthen and condition the body for maximum performance is something >>>> that seems to carry beyond the age of sports participation. Teamwork >>>> and respect for ones team and other teams, for me, was probably the >>>> most important thing they learned and in fact, they taught me a few >>>> things about it while they played.
>>>> That is not to say that the things you point out don't occur, Allan. >>>> I think bullies will be bullies no matter what else they do, as I >>>> watched kids who were bullied at home grow up to do the same. The >>>> real crime is that we know people in our communities that bully their >>>> kids and are powerless to do anything about it, other than the >>>> opportune comment to the parent which often brings unintended results >>>> on the child. What we tolerate around us in terms of human behavior >>>> often creates the things we later condemn. that tolerance is >>>> sometimes our own blind spot, sometimes social conditioning and shared >>>> moral code.
>>>> On Apr 18, 2:46 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > Education needs more financial support not less.. and is a severe >>>> > problem.. most of which comes from the community failing to meet the >>>> needs >>>> > of educational support and their lack of willingness to pay the cost >>>> they >>>> > could start with by making pay equal that of top executives.. >>>> > to encourage the best and brightest to go into that profession ,, >>>> starting >>>> > wages should be at say $50,000.oo to $60,000.oo >>>> > you will start getting the top minds which is desperately needed..
>>>> > ***** lol ***** response ****
>>>> > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery.?.? well Actually I think >>>> it >>>> > does just the opposite it increases it. The jocks become school >>>> approved >>>> > and blessed adolescent thugs oops I mean bullies.. school honors >>>> > their activities as are blessed by the school including bulling,, >>>> commonly >>>> > known as the blind eye..
>>>> > I do know people that have benefited from sports programst,, like a >>>> college >>>> > education but those people seem to have been forced to use the hated >>>> > sports as the way to get the education they needed.. and what about >>>> the >>>> > children seriously injured doing these activities and then covered up >>>> these >>>> > problems so they are never hear of again... you don't want to disturb >>>> > their prize program for encouraging adolescent thuggery. >>>> > Allan
>>>> > On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > > Among the 'elite' competition is high, yes. It's the soft bigotry >>>> of low >>>> > > expectations that worries me more then anything else. Both from some >>>> > > teachers and particularly from parents. A streamlined education >>>> system can >>>> > > fire the former but we can't do piss-all about the latter. How do >>>> you make >>>> > > a parent care? Or have time to care more? Parenting is hard work >>>> and if you >>>> > > have a struggling child handicapped by mental or physical disorders >>>> to deal >>>> > > with then it makes it even worse. Different children have different >>>> needs >>>> > > and should be taught in unique tailor made circumstances. What >>>> works for >>>> > > one child might not work as well for another. It's why I've always >>>> favored >>>> > > the Montessori method for primary schooling.
>>>> > > Also I believe it's important to separate the criminals from those >>>> willing >>>> > > and able to learn. By ninth grade if a child hasn't learned it's >>>> not ok to >>>> > > steal the only way to teach them is to cart his or her little hiney >>>> off to >>>> > > "alternative" school. Some kids need the structure and discipline >>>> of this >>>> > > kind of action to learn. In the right environment with the right >>>> > > encouragement some of these kids could make something of themselves >>>> > > eventually and they should be given the chance WITHOUT disrupting >>>> the >>>> > > learning of more well behaved children.
>>>> > > Let's not forget, Allan, that violent competitive sports can be a >>>> > > wonderful outlet for adolescent thuggery. Just sayin'.
>>>> > > dj
>>>> > > On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 10:06 PM, James Lynch <ashkas...@gmail.com >>>> >wrote:
>>>> > >> On 4/16/12, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >> > We already teach History, Science, Maths, Social Studies(civics) >>>> and >>>> > >> > current events. What is severely lacking is taking ALL of these >>>> base >>>> > >> > courses and applying them to real world applications. Schools >>>> used to >>>> > >> teach >>>> > >> > something called Home Economics when I was a kid. World >>>> Economics and >>>> > >> > Business Basics should be taught in grammer school. We've dumbed >>>> down >>>> > >> > school and are churning out future Government Dole Applicants. We >>>> > >> should be >>>> > >> > teaching them how to earn a living not take it for granted. We >>>> need more >>>> > >> > competition and classes that actually challange our kids to >>>> attain >>>> > >> > excellence. Instead school seems more social then competitive >>>> these
