Prayer for America
ornamentalmind
second thought, I’m only sharing a link.
http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28813&Itemid=1
For those not from the USA, Dennis is a US Congressman. There have
been different sorts of propaganda against him as is the case for
every elected person. Even though I’m not personally hot on the idea
of prayer, I’m not against it and find his words from 8 years ago to
be both insightful and informative overall. Again, as much as he is a
lightning rod…and one who it is difficult for both those on the right
and the left to know for sure what to think about him…I hope that the
general views are of interest.
Pat
On 18 Feb, 04:42, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> At first, I was going to copy/paste the entire prayer in a post. On
> second thought, I’m only sharing a link.http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28813&It...
>
> For those not from the USA, Dennis is a US Congressman. There have
> been different sorts of propaganda against him as is the case for
> every elected person. Even though I’m not personally hot on the idea
> of prayer, I’m not against it and find his words from 8 years ago to
> be both insightful and informative overall. Again, as much as he is a
> lightning rod…and one who it is difficult for both those on the right
> and the left to know for sure what to think about him…I hope that the
> general views are of interest.
He definitely has MANY valid points. I'm just a bit dismayed that he
didn't address the Israeli/Palestinian issue, which was the whole
basis FOR the 9/11 attack anyway. Until that problem is sorted out,
the Neo-Cons will always have an enemy that is trying to point out a
particular sequence of oppressions. Whilst I believe that Israel have
every right to exist as an individual State, they have NO right to mow
down houses in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank or put up walls between
communities. And, of course, someone needs to remind Israel that
their actions are evidence that haven't learned from WWII that
arbitrary oppression is wrong.
jimmy sayers
> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:42:44 -0800
> Subject: [Mind's Eye] Prayer for America
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ornamentalmind
didn't address the Israeli/Palestinian issue, which was the whole
Since that particular piece was written immediately after 9/11,
linkages nor ‘causes’ were sure…I’m not sure they are yet. However, he
does have views on the Middle East. See:
http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=4&id=71&Itemid=48
Slip Disc
right. After all their God gave them the right to many other
atrocities and heinous acts against humanity, right? Besides it might
be in the Space-time continuum which makes it that they are living up
to their destiny, right?
You see? What you believe has no bearing according to your beliefs;
it is already written.
Pat
On 18 Feb, 15:48, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> “… I'm just a bit dismayed that he
> didn't address the Israeli/Palestinian issue, which was the whole
> basis FOR the 9/11 attack anyway….” – Pat
>
> Since that particular piece was written immediately after 9/11,
> linkages nor ‘causes’ were sure…I’m not sure they are yet.
Oh they are. OBL has stated it many times.
>However, he
> does have views on the Middle East. See:
>
> http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ion...
>
> On Feb 18, 5:38 am, Pat <PatrickDHarring...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 18 Feb, 04:42, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > At first, I was going to copy/paste the entire prayer in a post. On
> > > second thought, I’m only sharing a link.http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28813&It...
>
> > > For those not from the USA, Dennis is a US Congressman. There have
> > > been different sorts of propaganda against him as is the case for
> > > every elected person. Even though I’m not personally hot on the idea
> > > of prayer, I’m not against it and find his words from 8 years ago to
> > > be both insightful and informative overall. Again, as much as he is a
> > > lightning rod…and one who it is difficult for both those on the right
> > > and the left to know for sure what to think about him…I hope that the
> > > general views are of interest.
>
> > He definitely has MANY valid points. I'm just a bit dismayed that he
> > didn't address the Israeli/Palestinian issue, which was the whole
> > basis FOR the 9/11 attack anyway. Until that problem is sorted out,
> > the Neo-Cons will always have an enemy that is trying to point out a
> > particular sequence of oppressions. Whilst I believe that Israel have
> > every right to exist as an individual State, they have NO right to mow
> > down houses in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank or put up walls between
> > communities. And, of course, someone needs to remind Israel that
> > their actions are evidence that haven't learned from WWII that
> > arbitrary oppression is wrong.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Pat
On 19 Feb, 04:06, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But Pat, if their God says they have the right then they have the
> right.
One always has a duty to fight oppression. However, 9/11 did
absolutely nothing towards solving any Israeli/Palestinian opression.
So, there were no Islamic grounds for 9/11. Any decent Muslim would
tell you that. The fact that none of the people killed had anything
to do with it, made it abstract violence an not 'an eye for an eye' in
any way, shape or form.
>After all their God gave them the right to many other
> atrocities and heinous acts against humanity, right?
Not by any means.
>Besides it might
> be in the Space-time continuum which makes it that they are living up
> to their destiny, right?
That IS true.
> You see? What you believe has no bearing according to your beliefs;
> it is already written.
>
Nope. As I have no access to the future. My ball is always in my
court. And the same holds true for us all. But, regarding the
previous point, we ALWAYS have to accept the past as being unchangable
and come to terms with it. That's simple Buddhist 'Acceptance'.
> On Feb 18, 7:38 am, Pat <PatrickDHarring...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 18 Feb, 04:42, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > At first, I was going to copy/paste the entire prayer in a post. On
> > > second thought, I’m only sharing a link.http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28813&It...
>
> > > For those not from the USA, Dennis is a US Congressman. There have
> > > been different sorts of propaganda against him as is the case for
> > > every elected person. Even though I’m not personally hot on the idea
> > > of prayer, I’m not against it and find his words from 8 years ago to
> > > be both insightful and informative overall. Again, as much as he is a
> > > lightning rod…and one who it is difficult for both those on the right
> > > and the left to know for sure what to think about him…I hope that the
> > > general views are of interest.
>
> > He definitely has MANY valid points. I'm just a bit dismayed that he
> > didn't address the Israeli/Palestinian issue, which was the whole
> > basis FOR the 9/11 attack anyway. Until that problem is sorted out,
> > the Neo-Cons will always have an enemy that is trying to point out a
> > particular sequence of oppressions. Whilst I believe that Israel have
> > every right to exist as an individual State, they have NO right to mow
> > down houses in the Gaza Strip or the West Bank or put up walls between
> > communities. And, of course, someone needs to remind Israel that
> > their actions are evidence that haven't learned from WWII that
Slip Disc
court of religious dictum and dogma vs space-time continuum destiny.
What good is having a duty to fight oppression if the oppressive event
is in place or queue as part of a divinity driven decree? The quantum
aspects in themselves have validity within their own context but
correlation to mundane theologies leaves overwhelming voids only
explainable through anthropic perceptions and imagery. This is how
the sun managed to revolve around the earth for thousands of years
without question and a solar eclipse signified the anger of a
perceived deity which may have resulted in the sacrifice of a virgin.
So, should we pursue the idea that space-time continuum holds
relevance and is pertinent to events within our universe, particularly
on our planet in regard to human interactions, then we should abandon
any and all religious dogmas derived from superstitions and
revelations of ancient origin and let the space-time continuum reveal
it's course for the universe. Good and bad is black and white without
the need of countless extrapolations that set forth guidelines for
human behavior by authority eg; human authority that claims
transcendence and enlightenment as well as a direct connection to a
perceived spiritual entity of which there is no evidence of other than
it's existence within the human consciousness. We might add that that
consciousness has fabricated numerous deities, many in human form,
which renders the entire concept as imagery of illusion. The ancients
didn't see or hear anything more than we today and in fact had less to
go on to dispel the great myths. Fear keeps people in check and what
greater fear is there than the fear of the unknown, fear of a creator
that destroys? How much power I could have if I could get people to
believe that this creator was a friend of mine who made me to be a
direct representative. These were the precepts that guided people
like Karesh and Jones who created spin off religious cultures that
many others are still processing to create. If the pope can do it why
can't I? Its the sheep story all over again Pat.
ornamentalmind
I’ll assume that was meant to be ironic.
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
gabbydott
more friendy towards me.Or ]
Vamadevananda
the
court of religious dictum and dogma vs space-time continuum destiny.
What good is having a duty to fight oppression if the oppressive
event
is in place or queue as part of a divinity driven decree? "
Indeed ! In fact this space-time continuum destiny thing is so much
humbug, a last - straw position of the psychologically obsessed to
arrive at something definitive even if there isn't one. And nobody
needs to feel hurt by this fact.
The truth is that the human universe is in his mind. And, that is
determined entirely by one's knowledge, values, belief and attitudes,
the combination of which variations would make each individual's
universe unique. The objective one that Neil is chasing is also a mere
add - on feature in that universe, at best a footnote, in small or
large print, one amongst the millions already there, changing nothing
of that substratum ground of knowledge, values, beliefs and attitudes.
I've ruled out the religious and scientific from major role playing in
the making of the man, his universe. What matters is his self, his
idea of himself, his knowledge of himself - material, physical,
psychological, mental, intellectual and spiritual.
All things religious to scientific take on a meaning, or not, this or
that, within the architecture of that which is in the mind of the
man.
What is ? !
Pat
On 19 Feb, 15:58, ornamentalmind <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> “Oh they are. OBL has stated it many times.” – Pat
>
> I’ll assume that was meant to be ironic.
>
Not (intended) in the least. But, there's irony involved, simply
because you perceived there to be some.
Pat
On 19 Feb, 14:46, Slip Disc <bug...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You are the wiggler my friend. But the inconsistencies abound on the
> court of religious dictum and dogma vs space-time continuum destiny.
> What good is having a duty to fight oppression if the oppressive event
> is in place or queue as part of a divinity driven decree?
Because we don't hve access to the future.
>The quantum
> aspects in themselves have validity within their own context but
> correlation to mundane theologies leaves overwhelming voids only
> explainable through anthropic perceptions and imagery.
Perhaps not 'only'. To rabbits, God may be very lepine and, to
wolves, lupine.
>This is how
> the sun managed to revolve around the earth for thousands of years
> without question and a solar eclipse signified the anger of a
> perceived deity which may have resulted in the sacrifice of a virgin.
It still does appear that the Sun goes around the Earth. It's not
blatantly obvious that it's the other way around. Not all ancient
cultures thought that way, though. The Chaldeans knew better. But,
of course, most of their astronomical records were kept in the Great
Library at Alexandria.
> So, should we pursue the idea that space-time continuum holds
> relevance and is pertinent to events within our universe, particularly
> on our planet in regard to human interactions, then we should abandon
> any and all religious dogmas derived from superstitions and
> revelations of ancient origin and let the space-time continuum reveal
> it's course for the universe.
How far back is 'ancient'? Plus, if I'm correct in my theory/model,
then the space-time continuum doesn't hold those forms of existence
which are eternal. Rather, it only holds those that are spatio-
temporal...by definition.
>Good and bad is black and white without
> the need of countless extrapolations that set forth guidelines for
> human behavior by authority eg; human authority that claims
> transcendence and enlightenment as well as a direct connection to a
> perceived spiritual entity of which there is no evidence of other than
> it's existence within the human consciousness.
That's said by someone who has not had experience of an encouter with
a completely spiritual entity. Believe me, the events are rare and
don't present themselves to everyone, but one person's lack of
experience A does not discount another person's experience of A.
>We might add that that
> consciousness has fabricated numerous deities, many in human form,
> which renders the entire concept as imagery of illusion.
Or that deception is part of the Plan. Remember Satan and his office
as the great deceiver? Having the wool pulled over some people's eyes
and others being given guidance is part of the Plan.
>The ancients
> didn't see or hear anything more than we today and in fact had less to
> go on to dispel the great myths.
The first part of that argument you can't state, as you weren't
there. The last part of the argument is, though, absolutely true.
>Fear keeps people in check and what
> greater fear is there than the fear of the unknown, fear of a creator
> that destroys?
And, if there is such an entity, would you not fear Him?
>How much power I could have if I could get people to
> believe that this creator was a friend of mine who made me to be a
> direct representative.
Yes. Indeed. But, if you were lying and there was such a creator, He
would hold you accountable for lying in His name. In fact, if, for a
moment, we take 'The Creator' as a given, for the sake of argument,
then everything we do is in His name. So, what you do, you do in His
name. That is why we must be careful in what we do.
>These were the precepts that guided people
> like Karesh and Jones who created spin off religious cultures that
> many others are still processing to create.
Yes. And I expect that they have inherited a great penalty for their
misleading.
>If the pope can do it why
> can't I? Its the sheep story all over again Pat.
>
The only thing stopping you is your own morality. If you feel it
would be wrong, then you would be averse to doing it. And, from what
I know of you, you don't have it in you to intentionally mislead
others in that way.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Pat
On 19 Feb, 16:06, Vamadevananda <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> " You are the wiggler my friend. But the inconsistencies abound on
> the
> court of religious dictum and dogma vs space-time continuum destiny.
> What good is having a duty to fight oppression if the oppressive
> event
> is in place or queue as part of a divinity driven decree? "
>
> Indeed ! In fact this space-time continuum destiny thing is so much
> humbug, a last - straw position of the psychologically obsessed to
> arrive at something definitive even if there isn't one. And nobody
> needs to feel hurt by this fact.
>
So you pray, my friend. You'll come to find, though, that I'm
correct. Luckily, your own nature and good deeds IN this space-time
continuum will testify to those good works and you'll thank God that
they can!
> The truth is that the human universe is in his mind. And, that is
> determined entirely by one's knowledge, values, belief and attitudes,
> the combination of which variations would make each individual's
> universe unique. The objective one that Neil is chasing is also a mere
> add - on feature in that universe, at best a footnote, in small or
> large print, one amongst the millions already there, changing nothing
> of that substratum ground of knowledge, values, beliefs and attitudes.
>
We (the many) are all footnotes in the eyes of the One.
> I've ruled out the religious and scientific from major role playing in
> the making of the man, his universe. What matters is his self, his
> idea of himself, his knowledge of himself - material, physical,
> psychological, mental, intellectual and spiritual.
>
Yet you deny me my knowledge of the universe. Curious. That doesn't
quite jive, in my mind.
> All things religious to scientific take on a meaning, or not, this or
> that, within the architecture of that which is in the mind of the
> man.
>
And that mind is but a subset in the mind of the One. The mind of the
One is the mind we explore when we explore our mind.
> What is ? !
>
The answer to that is easy. It's !
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Chris Jenkins
fiddler
more than drivel. You say that a tool-maker who creates a jimmy-stick
(car door lock disabler) allows the jimmy stick to be anything that it
chooses, and yet will punish the tool if it is used in the fashion to
which it was designed simply because the jimmy stick has no idea that
it was designed to do so. This argument fails on so many different
levels that I have difficulty knowing where to start.
The best way to describe my feelings of disgust for this idea is to
use a vehicle for a concept, especially considering that we ourselves
are only self motorised vehicles. According to you and your ilk, we
are all vehicles for some use or whatnot. A creator, creating the
vehicle to be all-terrain or to be fuel efficient, then condemns the
vehicle if it performs adequately in the fashion that it was designed
to operate. The vehicle need not be aware of the limitation to violate
such limitation, and therefore is condemned. Your circular logic is
not only damaging to a single persons psyche, it is damaging to
humanity as a whole.
A maker of some sort being inclined to damn a person for doing that
which they were intended is perfectly and exactly equivalent to a
disturbed child crushing an insect piece by piece for the crime of not
flying... after the child rips its wings off. This argument that is
presented (i.e. that we have free will although we are created for a
purpose) is disgusting and wrong.
Immediately after islams inception, people began formalising lists of
silly arguments that are used to justify the existence of sad,
destructive, and dangerous arguments. You might try looking at these
fallacies in order not to repeat them quite so often.
Yes molly, I know. I called out someone that you "just love." Live
with it or ban me, I'm tired of feeling uncomfortable knowing exactly
what I might say that will offend your tender sensibilities. Or maybe
just be consistent and warn them as well when they do the same.
Don Johnson
Jesus Christ as a tool for political maneuvering. By making it a
"prayer" he removes the necessity of backing up his arguments with any
basis in actual fact. Is this the same dude that ruined cars with
needless and annoying 'safety' features that increase the cost of an
automobile by several thousand dollars but have limited and
questionable usefulness? A pox on him. And his little dog too.
He does have a hot young wife however. It helps to be rich.
dj
fiddler
could drive me over 400 miles on half of a tank. I had around 45 mpg.
This was before all of the politicians on both sides of the aisle
demanded that each other was wrong on some stupid point or another and
now the best gasoline motored cars can only get 34 mpg.
On Feb 19, 2:11 pm, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am shocked. And appalled. That a politician would use the Lord God
> Jesus Christ as a tool for political maneuvering. By making it a
> "prayer" he removes the necessity of backing up his arguments with any
> basis in actual fact. Is this the same dude that ruined cars with
> needless and annoying 'safety' features that increase the cost of an
> automobile by several thousand dollars but have limited and
> questionable usefulness? A pox on him. And his little dog too.
>
> He does have a hot young wife however. It helps to be rich.
>
> dj
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 10:42 PM, ornamentalmind
>
> <ornamentalm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > At first, I was going to copy/paste the entire prayer in a post. On
> > second thought, I’m only sharing a link.
> >http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28813&It...
Slip Disc
this debate. Truly the only thing that really matters is the self, the
idea and knowledge of self and I might add the vision of what one
might perceive the self to be or become.
Vamadevananda
On Feb 19, 9:36 pm, Pat <PatrickDHarring...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 19 Feb, 16:06, Vamadevananda <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > " You are the wiggler my friend. But the inconsistencies abound on
> > the
> > court of religious dictum and dogma vs space-time continuum destiny.
> > What good is having a duty to fight oppression if the oppressive
> > event
> > is in place or queue as part of a divinity driven decree? "
>
> > Indeed ! In fact this space-time continuum destiny thing is so much
> > humbug, a last - straw position of the psychologically obsessed to
> > arrive at something definitive even if there isn't one. And nobody
> > needs to feel hurt by this fact.
>
> So you pray, my friend. You'll come to find, though, that I'm
> correct. Luckily, your own nature and good deeds IN this space-time
> continuum will testify to those good works and you'll thank God that
> they can!
Pat, when I outgrew my religion, I also outgrew the need to pray, at
least the kind that you seem to be recommending freely !
> > The truth is that the human universe is in his mind. And, that is
> > determined entirely by one's knowledge, values, belief and attitudes,
> > the combination of which variations would make each individual's
> > universe unique. The objective one that Neil is chasing is also a mere
> > add - on feature in that universe, at best a footnote, in small or
> > large print, one amongst the millions already there, changing nothing
> > of that substratum ground of knowledge, values, beliefs and attitudes.
>
> We (the many) are all footnotes in the eyes of the One.
>
> > I've ruled out the religious and scientific from major role playing in
> > the making of the man, his universe. What matters is his self, his
> > idea of himself, his knowledge of himself - material, physical,
> > psychological, mental, intellectual and spiritual.
>
> Yet you deny me my knowledge of the universe. Curious. That doesn't
> quite jive, in my mind.
Who am I to deny you or anybody anything, Pat ! Maybe you need to
reflect on why you feel so denied.
> > All things religious to scientific take on a meaning, or not, this or
> > that, within the architecture of that which is in the mind of the
> > man.
>
> And that mind is but a subset in the mind of the One. The mind of the
> One is the mind we explore when we explore our mind.
I wouldn't give it the mathematical reductions you posit, Pat ! It is
of another kind altogether, as I have fathomed. Which isn't much ...
but I'm learning all the time, without books, without science or
philosophy, or the ( formed ) mind if I may say ...
> > What is ? !
>
> The answer to that is easy. It's !
It's sure typical and symptomatic of the glib repartee talk, Pat, that
is a no - answer ! What is ? remains as unravelled in whatever you've
said.
What's certain to me is that THAT is not in Mohammed's vision that you
have lately become so enamoured of, or the Quran that has so
overwhelmed you. Maybe if the two, as many others, are distilled
progressively, the last distillate may leave us before the final
veil ... to the answer. This process of distillation is called '
sadhana,' in traditions here.
gabbydott
On 19 Feb., 22:21, Chris Jenkins <digitalprecip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Gabs, you did get placed on moderation, but it was a Google bug, not us.
> I believe you've been taken off again now. Orn said this has been happening
> across some of his other groups as well.
>
> > minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com<minds-eye%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
Molly
to Pat's specific ideas as presented in his posts, and the ideas of
Islam as you understand them. This is no infringement of the
guidelines. Challenging members to further explain their ideas is
what we do here, and while you are free to express you emotions about
the ideas, you may find they have little impact. Where you do cross
the line is in taunting the admin, whether it is me or any other.
Whether you see consistency or not, it is there, and your last
paragraph reads like a child having a tantrum, trying to create
conflict and drama where there is none. This is the behavior that may
eventually get you banned, because the group as a whole will not live
with it for long.
gabbydott
growing over your head? Let the real God decide who the group as a
whole is and how long it will live. Please respect the reasons I gave
for not subscribing to the typical American definition of the mutual
respect that you demand.
Peace for all.
Molly
but to respect the guidelines of the group. beyond that, your life is
your own, and our picture of that is formed as you express yourself in
here. You have been banned once. You know the drill.
gabbydott
Molly
and remind you again...have done my job...appears we are both cool.
Very good.