The language of thinking
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andrew vecsey
Jan 6, 2013, 8:16:08 AM1/6/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
"Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to use words to display his emotions. Words helped man to think and enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. Pictures and written words enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored for later contemplation and to be scattered like seed to grow. This cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and experience resulted in the growth of agriculture that enabled civilizations to flourish."
gabbydott
Jan 6, 2013, 10:41:53 AM1/6/13
to minds-eye
This is indeed a very, very complex topic worth discussing and simplifying. Help me understand what you are aiming at by telling me whether music and dance would also account for languages of thinking. Thanks.
I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
"Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to use words to display his emotions. Words helped man to think and enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. Pictures and written words enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored for later contemplation and to be scattered like seed to grow. This cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and experience resulted in the growth of agriculture that enabled civilizations to flourish."
--
archytas
Jan 6, 2013, 12:33:47 PM1/6/13
to "Minds Eye"
There is still a question as to whether language plays any role in
thinking.
On 6 Jan, 15:41, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is indeed a very, very complex topic worth discussing and simplifying.
> Help me understand what you are aiming at by telling me whether music and
> dance would also account for languages of thinking. Thanks.
>
> 2013/1/6 andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
> > enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. *Pictures
> > and written words* enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored
> > civilizations* to flourish."
>
> > --
thinking.
On 6 Jan, 15:41, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is indeed a very, very complex topic worth discussing and simplifying.
> Help me understand what you are aiming at by telling me whether music and
> dance would also account for languages of thinking. Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and
> > time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I
> > think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my
> > memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I
> > think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up
> > to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the
> > same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how
> > do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my
> > new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
>
> > "Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying
> > and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between
> > displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point
> > from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to
> > use *words* to display his emotions. Words helped man to think and
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and
> > time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I
> > think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my
> > memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I
> > think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up
> > to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the
> > same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how
> > do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my
> > new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
>
> > "Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying
> > and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between
> > displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point
> > from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to
> > enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. *Pictures
> > and written words* enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored
> > for later contemplation and to be scattered like seed to grow. This
> > cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and
> > experience resulted in the growth of *agriculture* that enabled *
> > cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and
> > civilizations* to flourish."
>
> > --
andrew vecsey
Jan 6, 2013, 12:35:06 PM1/6/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I suppose dance would be like body language. You raise a very interesting point for me about music Gabby. Sometimes when I am in the right frame of mind, I can think of music and I am able to hear (in my mind) the music, hearing all the notes being played in detail. At those times, when I think of music with lyrics, I can hear (in my mind) the words of the song even though I can not remember the words normally. Kind of strange. Has anyone else experienced that? I suppose it is a kind of photographic memory retrieval. But what I meant to discuss in this post is that if I want to think about the music or about the dance... maybe to critique it or to analyze it, I find that I can not do that without articulating the thoughts in my mind with words. I wonder if others have found the same thing.
Allan H
Jan 6, 2013, 12:54:03 PM1/6/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
what good is thinking if you can not communicate it,
Allan
> --
>
>
>
--
(
)
|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
Allan
>
>
>
--
(
)
|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..
archytas
Jan 6, 2013, 4:18:01 PM1/6/13
to "Minds Eye"
We often 'keep things to ourselves' Allan. I come up with a lot
internally that I find ineffable. Thinking is often like a cut-up
scrapbook of memories in my head - though I've never kept a
scrapbook. I often think that language is esoteric - as in recent
experiments that have created minus absolute Kelvin temperatures that
are actually higher temperatures than absolute zero - which sounds
like tosh unless you know the esoteric definition of temperature in
science as other than what the thermometer reads when stuck in
something. One is confronted in explanation with what others don't
know, one's own ignorance and various gatekeepers, censorships and so
on - I take these as part of language. Music and dance, eurhythmics
and so on play communicative roles - though most I see on offer only
boredom for me.
internally that I find ineffable. Thinking is often like a cut-up
scrapbook of memories in my head - though I've never kept a
scrapbook. I often think that language is esoteric - as in recent
experiments that have created minus absolute Kelvin temperatures that
are actually higher temperatures than absolute zero - which sounds
like tosh unless you know the esoteric definition of temperature in
science as other than what the thermometer reads when stuck in
something. One is confronted in explanation with what others don't
know, one's own ignorance and various gatekeepers, censorships and so
on - I take these as part of language. Music and dance, eurhythmics
and so on play communicative roles - though most I see on offer only
boredom for me.
James
Jan 6, 2013, 10:53:39 PM1/6/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
It is quite irritating to hear a monologue when I'm trying to think,
perhaps that's why I find it so hard to write. When I am pondering
things I am free from it, there are concepts and ideas moving around too
fast and messily. Communication is difficult triggering memory can be
like navigating a minefield, first there is interpreting, then there is
everything that shouldn't be said (which seems like everything under the
freaking sun), then putting things into digestible bits and so on. I
can't imagine how people write so easily, it seems mine are all lies and
hypocrisy, I'm cursing nearly every word with contempt but still need to
speak. A damnable position to be in no doubt.. ;-)
My first reaction is to discount music and dance as just aesthetic
expression, but if I try to place that in the field of language it is
tricky. The most direct observation I have is in meditative moments,
where something is captivating, the emotional experiences stimulated by
audio visual and abstract stimulus have some similarity at times. I
think this goes back to the earliest storytelling that was probably
reenactments and rudimentary symbolic concepts optimized for
preprogrammed genetic language induced stimulus-response mechanisms.
Those we iteratively adapted to changing environments, genetics, and
experiences as more advanced language and environmental analysis and
interpretation would afford a higher survival rate to innovations.
Andrew, there is a comedy called History of the World Part 1, you might
find it a humorous take on human progress. "It's good to be the king." LMAO
On 1/6/2013 12:35 PM, andrew vecsey wrote:
> I suppose dance would be like body language. You raise a very
> interesting point for me about music Gabby. Sometimes when I am in the
> right frame of mind, I can think of music and I am able to hear (in my
> mind) the music, hearing all the notes being played in detail. At those
> times, when I think of music with lyrics, I can hear (in my mind) the
> words of the song even though I can not remember the words normally.
> Kind of strange. Has anyone else experienced that? I suppose it is a
> kind of photographic memory retrieval. But what I meant to discuss in
> this post is that if I want to think about the music or about the
> dance... maybe to critique it or to analyze it, I find that I can not do
> that without articulating the thoughts in my mind with words. I wonder
> if others have found the same thing.
>
> On Sunday, January 6, 2013 4:41:53 PM UTC+1, Gabby wrote:
>
> This is indeed a very, very complex topic worth discussing and
> simplifying. Help me understand what you are aiming at by telling me
> whether music and dance would also account for languages of
> thinking. Thanks.
>
>
> 2013/1/6 andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> about 18,000 years ago, man started to use *words* to display
> written words* enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be
> knowledge and experience resulted in the growth of *agriculture*
> that enabled *civilizations* to flourish."
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
perhaps that's why I find it so hard to write. When I am pondering
things I am free from it, there are concepts and ideas moving around too
fast and messily. Communication is difficult triggering memory can be
like navigating a minefield, first there is interpreting, then there is
everything that shouldn't be said (which seems like everything under the
freaking sun), then putting things into digestible bits and so on. I
can't imagine how people write so easily, it seems mine are all lies and
hypocrisy, I'm cursing nearly every word with contempt but still need to
speak. A damnable position to be in no doubt.. ;-)
My first reaction is to discount music and dance as just aesthetic
expression, but if I try to place that in the field of language it is
tricky. The most direct observation I have is in meditative moments,
where something is captivating, the emotional experiences stimulated by
audio visual and abstract stimulus have some similarity at times. I
think this goes back to the earliest storytelling that was probably
reenactments and rudimentary symbolic concepts optimized for
preprogrammed genetic language induced stimulus-response mechanisms.
Those we iteratively adapted to changing environments, genetics, and
experiences as more advanced language and environmental analysis and
interpretation would afford a higher survival rate to innovations.
Andrew, there is a comedy called History of the World Part 1, you might
find it a humorous take on human progress. "It's good to be the king." LMAO
On 1/6/2013 12:35 PM, andrew vecsey wrote:
> I suppose dance would be like body language. You raise a very
> interesting point for me about music Gabby. Sometimes when I am in the
> right frame of mind, I can think of music and I am able to hear (in my
> mind) the music, hearing all the notes being played in detail. At those
> times, when I think of music with lyrics, I can hear (in my mind) the
> words of the song even though I can not remember the words normally.
> Kind of strange. Has anyone else experienced that? I suppose it is a
> kind of photographic memory retrieval. But what I meant to discuss in
> this post is that if I want to think about the music or about the
> dance... maybe to critique it or to analyze it, I find that I can not do
> that without articulating the thoughts in my mind with words. I wonder
> if others have found the same thing.
>
> On Sunday, January 6, 2013 4:41:53 PM UTC+1, Gabby wrote:
>
> This is indeed a very, very complex topic worth discussing and
> simplifying. Help me understand what you are aiming at by telling me
> whether music and dance would also account for languages of
> thinking. Thanks.
>
>
>
> I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru
> space and time" publication/video that made me think more about
> thinking. Whenever I think, I seem to be talking to myself, I
> can think about something in my memory by imagining and reliving
> sensations I remember, but whenever I think about those
> memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up to now,
> fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have
> the same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like
> that? If not, how do you manage to think without mentally
> talking it out? The excerpt of my new chapter that started me
> thinking about this line of thought is below:
>
> "Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted.Just like with
> I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru
> space and time" publication/video that made me think more about
> thinking. Whenever I think, I seem to be talking to myself, I
> can think about something in my memory by imagining and reliving
> sensations I remember, but whenever I think about those
> memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up to now,
> fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have
> the same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like
> that? If not, how do you manage to think without mentally
> talking it out? The excerpt of my new chapter that started me
> thinking about this line of thought is below:
>
> crying and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the
> difference between displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and
> pleasure.At the 60 meter point from the start of the think park,
> difference between displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and
> about 18,000 years ago, man started to use *words* to display
> his emotions. Words helped man to think and enabled him to
> articulate and share his inner most thoughts.*Pictures and
> written words* enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be
> stored for later contemplation and to be scattered like seed to
> grow.This cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts,
> knowledge and experience resulted in the growth of *agriculture*
> that enabled *civilizations* to flourish."
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
Molly
Jan 7, 2013, 7:10:19 AM1/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
Linguistics has long held that language sets perimeters for
consciousness, and that multi lingual people have a more flexible
approach because of expanded vantage points. Then Marshall McLuhan
came along and proposed that the speed in which we access information
determines the speed of consciousness raising - something to posit. I
haven't heard anyone dispute the idea and technology continues to
advance at such a rate that we can't get the stuff to market and
people using it before it is obsolete. We are constantly adapting to
it and accessing information through it, especially information on how
to use it...
I think with being alive there are parts of us formed by language and
culture and experience. And parts of us remain unformed, without need
of thought or feeling, yet purely alive and keenly aware. Some folks
have a real genius for knowing how it all works.
consciousness, and that multi lingual people have a more flexible
approach because of expanded vantage points. Then Marshall McLuhan
came along and proposed that the speed in which we access information
determines the speed of consciousness raising - something to posit. I
haven't heard anyone dispute the idea and technology continues to
advance at such a rate that we can't get the stuff to market and
people using it before it is obsolete. We are constantly adapting to
it and accessing information through it, especially information on how
to use it...
I think with being alive there are parts of us formed by language and
culture and experience. And parts of us remain unformed, without need
of thought or feeling, yet purely alive and keenly aware. Some folks
have a real genius for knowing how it all works.
andrew vecsey
Jan 7, 2013, 10:29:44 AM1/7/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for the tip to see the comedy. I found it funny. I suppose there are kinds of thinking like imagining, fantasizing and remembering that for me does not always need the monologue in my head. But with pondering, contemplating, reasoning, problem solving, analyzing, planning, desiring, admiring, criticizing I need to talk to myself. Sometimes I do get ideas come to my head without having thought about anything. I disagree with Allen when he says "what good is thinking if you can not communicate it". I do not communicate or share all of my thoughts, but I still value those thoughts.
rigs
Jan 7, 2013, 7:09:17 PM1/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
Madmen, drunks and idiots believe they are thinking. Are you thinking
without disiplined language skills or is it gibberish? Math and music
also qualify as languages but I would discard the dance. Much is lost
in translation of various languages- will worldwide English be a plus
or minus?
> > > --- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
without disiplined language skills or is it gibberish? Math and music
also qualify as languages but I would discard the dance. Much is lost
in translation of various languages- will worldwide English be a plus
or minus?
>
> - Show quoted text -
rigs
Jan 7, 2013, 7:56:53 PM1/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
Thinking can be a process. What is thought- what is said/wrote- what
is meant, for instance. Then if communicating, one depends on the
understanding and mental abilities of the listener/reader. I would
place dance in the general arts but musical theory-notation-
orchestration is a language. But one must consider a symphony superior
to a simple tune as is the case of complex math and language efforts/
reactions. It's a matter of degree.
> > Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
is meant, for instance. Then if communicating, one depends on the
understanding and mental abilities of the listener/reader. I would
place dance in the general arts but musical theory-notation-
orchestration is a language. But one must consider a symphony superior
to a simple tune as is the case of complex math and language efforts/
reactions. It's a matter of degree.
rigs
Jan 7, 2013, 8:04:23 PM1/7/13
to "Minds Eye"
That should be said/written...you naughty kitten!
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
gabbydott
Jan 8, 2013, 5:39:00 AM1/8/13
to minds-eye
I agree, the distinction mark between thinking and fluffy clouds - being of whatever data content - passing my mind is a transitional one. What I am missing in excluding dance as a language - language being understood as an agreed upon means of communication - is the reflection of the bodily evolution of language, the evolutionary relatedness to the real world of/in space and time. No language development or thinking as a process without the body in which this happens, to which this happens. Instruments outside of us are too static to exemplify how thinking and language really can have a moving effect. Or?
--
Konara Abeyrathne
Jan 7, 2013, 11:34:14 PM1/7/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
you are perfect Andrew. But thinking is a process that is woven around on one's self.This is not meditation. Meditation is something like keep on thinking on a certain element, until you attain some mental status/advancement.Thinking creates thinkers,philosophers but not sciencetists.Is this similar to day dreaming.If it is so we are indebted to them as they have created this present , modern world where we live.
On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 6:46 PM, andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:
I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
"Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to use words to display his emotions. Words helped man to think and enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. Pictures and written words enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored for later contemplation and to be scattered like seed to grow. This cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and experience resulted in the growth of agriculture that enabled civilizations to flourish."
--
rigs
Jan 9, 2013, 8:51:38 PM1/9/13
to "Minds Eye"
I was thinking more about this though it's only a personal opinion;
though humans share universal behaviors, I am not sure many qualify as
languages of thinking. Maybe we need a definition? One could be misled
easily enough- perhaps a waddle-walk means a dance or an invitation,
etc. And technology and science also have their languages- somewhat
like Latin of the Middle Ages, in a way.
On Jan 6, 9:41 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is indeed a very, very complex topic worth discussing and simplifying.
> Help me understand what you are aiming at by telling me whether music and
> dance would also account for languages of thinking. Thanks.
>
> 2013/1/6 andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>
> > enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. *Pictures
> > and written words* enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored
though humans share universal behaviors, I am not sure many qualify as
languages of thinking. Maybe we need a definition? One could be misled
easily enough- perhaps a waddle-walk means a dance or an invitation,
etc. And technology and science also have their languages- somewhat
like Latin of the Middle Ages, in a way.
On Jan 6, 9:41 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is indeed a very, very complex topic worth discussing and simplifying.
> Help me understand what you are aiming at by telling me whether music and
> dance would also account for languages of thinking. Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> > I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and
> > time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I
> > think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my
> > memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I
> > think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up
> > to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the
> > same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how
> > do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my
> > new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
>
> > "Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying
> > and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between
> > displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point
> > from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to
> > use *words* to display his emotions. Words helped man to think and
>
>
> > I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and
> > time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I
> > think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my
> > memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I
> > think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up
> > to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the
> > same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how
> > do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my
> > new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
>
> > "Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying
> > and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between
> > displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point
> > from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to
> > enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. *Pictures
> > and written words* enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored
> > for later contemplation and to be scattered like seed to grow. This
> > cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and
> > cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and
> > experience resulted in the growth of *agriculture* that enabled *
> > civilizations* to flourish."
>
> > --- Hide quoted text -
> > civilizations* to flourish."
>
gabbydott
Jan 10, 2013, 8:44:01 AM1/10/13
to minds-eye
Right. That's aiming straight at the question immanent functional orientation, not only solving the cui bono question.
--
archytas
Jan 10, 2013, 8:14:37 PM1/10/13
to "Minds Eye"
Thinking is accompanied by some kind of 'brain voice' in my head -
this is sort of a dialogue in monologue and it gets obsessive. If I
manage to switch off and sleep or do something that demands attention
so the internal voice stops, I find I may have moved on past
barriers.
There is a public language of thinking that is highly restrictive and
various rules on how thinking can be presented through gatekeeping
activities. Much 'thought' seems based on copying and in my areas of
current study (organisation theory and economics) it's pretty clear we
keep copying mistakes.
On Jan 10, 1:44 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right. That's aiming straight at the question immanent functional
> orientation, not only solving the cui bono question.
>
> 2013/1/10 rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>
this is sort of a dialogue in monologue and it gets obsessive. If I
manage to switch off and sleep or do something that demands attention
so the internal voice stops, I find I may have moved on past
barriers.
There is a public language of thinking that is highly restrictive and
various rules on how thinking can be presented through gatekeeping
activities. Much 'thought' seems based on copying and in my areas of
current study (organisation theory and economics) it's pretty clear we
keep copying mistakes.
On Jan 10, 1:44 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Right. That's aiming straight at the question immanent functional
> orientation, not only solving the cui bono question.
>
rigs
Jan 10, 2013, 8:51:29 PM1/10/13
to "Minds Eye"
Humanity has herdlike qualities and new ideas or approaches are not
easily accepted- same old grazing on old ideas and methods. It is also
a trait of activities beyond economics and government as history and
culture illustrate over and over again. You are also making the
establishment nervous so they will quash or silence.
Now the communication between dog and human is interesting-
unconditional love and loyalty. Or have we enslaved pets by
domesticating them and making them thoroughly dependent?
easily accepted- same old grazing on old ideas and methods. It is also
a trait of activities beyond economics and government as history and
culture illustrate over and over again. You are also making the
establishment nervous so they will quash or silence.
Now the communication between dog and human is interesting-
unconditional love and loyalty. Or have we enslaved pets by
domesticating them and making them thoroughly dependent?
archytas
Jan 11, 2013, 12:48:30 AM1/11/13
to "Minds Eye"
Why do only fools and horses work? Max sometimes has that look of
love in his eye. Not sure I'd have been brave enough to dance with
wolves.
There are tribes that hardly talk - most of the communication is sign
(off Equatorial Guinea somewhere). E = mc2 is not represented like
this in my head. I don't see anything when I 'visualise' in maths or
do spatial reasoning. Some maths savants report seeing numbers and
sums in shapes. Chimps are quicker at some maths than humans. I can
wade through 100s of pages of academic and student work without
spotting any evidence of thought!
love in his eye. Not sure I'd have been brave enough to dance with
wolves.
There are tribes that hardly talk - most of the communication is sign
(off Equatorial Guinea somewhere). E = mc2 is not represented like
this in my head. I don't see anything when I 'visualise' in maths or
do spatial reasoning. Some maths savants report seeing numbers and
sums in shapes. Chimps are quicker at some maths than humans. I can
wade through 100s of pages of academic and student work without
spotting any evidence of thought!
archytas
Jan 26, 2013, 10:51:14 AM1/26/13
to "Minds Eye"
If one tries to think in logic one first translates ordinary language
in which even simple sentences are ambiguous - memories occur in
thinking and these are often inaccurate. To get machines 'thinking'
we have to change ordinary language into their logic (language). Is
thought done in language at all?
in which even simple sentences are ambiguous - memories occur in
thinking and these are often inaccurate. To get machines 'thinking'
we have to change ordinary language into their logic (language). Is
thought done in language at all?
andrew vecsey
Jan 26, 2013, 2:48:38 PM1/26/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Perhaps thinking can be divided into 2 kinds; emotional and logical. Emotional thinking includes imagining, fantasizing and remembering. Logical thinking includes pondering, contemplating, reasoning,
problem solving, analyzing, planning, desiring, admiring, and criticizing. I personally need the language of monologue (talking to myself) for the logical type of thinking only. For the emotional type of thinking, I find feeling is enough. For a computer, feelings are algorithms that are programed. Programmed emotions are as easy to see thru them as faked emotions of humans are.
archytas
Jan 27, 2013, 5:13:04 PM1/27/13
to "Minds Eye"
I often have no internal language when I think, at least in the sense
it's silent. My general supposition on language is we have to do a
lot of work on it to think with what's really there. Dance doesn't
get to me much (other than related to the trouser canoe) and much
literature and film just bores me with predictable formula and I'd say
the same on most current affairs, news and politics. I suspect many
people think with the ready to hand and never know any critical
thought languages.
it's silent. My general supposition on language is we have to do a
lot of work on it to think with what's really there. Dance doesn't
get to me much (other than related to the trouser canoe) and much
literature and film just bores me with predictable formula and I'd say
the same on most current affairs, news and politics. I suspect many
people think with the ready to hand and never know any critical
thought languages.
Gabby
Mar 13, 2013, 7:00:34 AM3/13/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Hi Andrew, I came across a website yesterday of which I thought the non-verbal and non-audible video material would be of interest to you. And then I somehow forgot to go back to the Minds Eye website and find the appropriate thread to link this info for you to find it. Shame on my laziness. Here is the link now: http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys2560.html
andrew vecsey
Mar 13, 2013, 11:19:26 AM3/13/13
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Very nice of you Gabby, thanks.
archytas
Mar 14, 2013, 7:32:26 AM3/14/13
to "Minds Eye"
They even manage to get knots in fluids these days. Thanks t Gabby we
now know it makes sense to get knotted!
On Mar 13, 3:19 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Very nice of you Gabby, thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:00:34 PM UTC+1, Gabby wrote:
>
> > Hi Andrew, I came across a website yesterday of which I thought the
> > non-verbal and non-audible video material would be of interest to you. And
> > then I somehow forgot to go back to the Minds Eye website and find the
> > appropriate thread to link this info for you to find it. Shame on my
> > laziness. Here is the link now:
> >http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys2560.html
>
> > Am Sonntag, 6. Januar 2013 14:16:08 UTC+1 schrieb andrew vecsey:
>
> >> I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and
> >> time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I
> >> think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my
> >> memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I
> >> think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up
> >> to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the
> >> same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how
> >> do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my
> >> new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
>
> >> "Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying
> >> and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between
> >> displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point
> >> from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to
> >> use *words* to display his emotions. Words helped man to think and
> >> enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. *Pictures
> >> and written words* enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored
now know it makes sense to get knotted!
On Mar 13, 3:19 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Very nice of you Gabby, thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 13, 2013 12:00:34 PM UTC+1, Gabby wrote:
>
> > Hi Andrew, I came across a website yesterday of which I thought the
> > non-verbal and non-audible video material would be of interest to you. And
> > then I somehow forgot to go back to the Minds Eye website and find the
> > appropriate thread to link this info for you to find it. Shame on my
> > laziness. Here is the link now:
> >http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys2560.html
>
> > Am Sonntag, 6. Januar 2013 14:16:08 UTC+1 schrieb andrew vecsey:
>
> >> I have written a new chapter to my "Think Park - A Journey thru space and
> >> time" publication/video that made me think more about thinking. Whenever I
> >> think, I seem to be talking to myself, I can think about something in my
> >> memory by imagining and reliving sensations I remember, but whenever I
> >> think about those memories, I ultimately revert to talking to my self (up
> >> to now, fortunately silently). Do others in this group of thinkers have the
> >> same experience? If yes, why do you think that it is like that? If not, how
> >> do you manage to think without mentally talking it out? The excerpt of my
> >> new chapter that started me thinking about this line of thought is below:
>
> >> "Before men could talk, they groaned and grunted. Just like with crying
> >> and laughing, it was sometimes difficult to tell the difference between
> >> displays of sorrow and joy, or pain and pleasure. At the 60 meter point
> >> from the start of the think park, about 18,000 years ago, man started to
> >> enabled him to articulate and share his inner most thoughts. *Pictures
> >> and written words* enabled his thoughts and his knowledge to be stored
> >> for later contemplation and to be scattered like seed to grow. This
> >> cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and
> >> cultivation, communication and sharing of thoughts, knowledge and
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