Building a Nerdy Derby track

[Ron Bean]

There's been some talk about building an "official" Nerdy Derby track.
Is anyone interested in getting started on this?

It looks pretty straightforward, but it could require quite a bit of CNC
router time, so it might be good to get started now. The plans Pete
posted on the Wiki don't appear to specify the length of the sections,
but our CNC router is 32" wide (so maybe 24" sections?). Also, I don't
see an estimate of how much plywood is required ($$).

http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/projects/nerdyderby

We held a "Nerdy Derby" at BarCamp Milwaukee in October using a borrowed
Pinewood Derby track, and there's been some interest at PS:1 as well
(which is why I'm posting this to both lists). Milwaukee and Chicago are
close enough that we could easily share a track.

[Pete Prodoehl]

I/d like to see a proper track made...

If our router isn't large enough, we could probably use the 4x8 at UWM's DCRL.


Pete

[Brent Bublitz]

Agreed. Something without a large propeller-chewing obstacle at the end perhaps.

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[Kevin Crowley]

The track is strips of 1/4" thick strips glued to sheet goods.  CNCing it seems a waste of time.

[Pete Prodoehl]

Cutting the curved pieces with a CNC machine seemed like best way to get them all as close to exactly the same as possible.

Anything to eliminate one lane having an advantage over another, right?

   http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/projects/nerdyderby


Pete

[Ron Bean]

>Cutting the curved pieces with a CNC machine seemed like best way to
>get them all as close to exactly the same as possible.
>Anything to eliminate one lane having an advantage over another,
>right?
> http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/projects/nerdyderby
> Pete
>
> On 4/22/13 11:48 AM, Kevin Crowley wrote:
>
> The track is strips of 1/4" thick strips glued to sheet goods. CNCing
> it seems a waste of time.

Also, their design is made from four layers of 3/4" material, not 1/4".
(see the diagram at the wiki link above)

You could slice it horizontally instead of vertically and make the lanes
from 1/4" material, but you still have to make the underlying curved
track (3 curves, as opposed to one curve for a Pinewood Derby track).

If it were thinner it would not be as sturdy, and would need more
support posts. But it could be done.

I'm thinking the sections should be less than 4' long, for ease of
storage and portability.

[Eric Berna]

I took a close look at the plans when this first came up. I figured out that one lane could be cut from one sheet of 4x8 plywood. So the full three lane track would take three sheets. The plywood would have to be higher quality wood with no voids to ensure a smooth track surface. Our CNC router can't cut many of the pieces, as they are longer than the reach of the router. We would need a 4 foot reach.

Eric Berna

[Pete Prodoehl]

If someone is willing to provide the wood, we can ask Frankie if we can
cut it on the 4x8 router at the DCRL.


Pete

[Kevin Crowley]

Eric,

I don't follow.  A lane is only about 6" wide.

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[Brent Bublitz]

I think he was hoping to cut longer strips at once to avoid a lot of joins.

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[Kevin Crowley]

OK

[Ron Bean]

Eric Berna <er...@bernafamily.com> writes:

>I took a close look at the plans when this first came up. I figured out
>that one lane could be cut from one sheet of 4x8 plywood. So the full
>three lane track would take three sheets. The plywood would have to be
>higher quality wood with no voids to ensure a smooth track surface.

That's good to know, we should be able to get a cost estimate from that.

>Our CNC router can't cut many of the pieces, as they are longer than
>the reach of the router. We would need a 4 foot reach.

The plans I saw weren't very specific, we could make the sections
shorter. But it would be a lot more convenient to do it on a 4'x8'
router.

The plans appear to have been made with Vectorworks.
I don't know if the .vwx file is more detailed than the other ones.

[Ron Bean]

Kevin Crowley <caoh...@gmail.com> writes:

>I don't follow. A lane is only about 6" wide.

Actually, a lane is only 3" wide, with a 3" space between lanes.
The width consists to four 0.75" layers laminated together.

See the diagram on the wiki page:
http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/projects/nerdyderby

It's not built like a cub-scout Pinewood Derby track.

[Pete Prodoehl]

Frankie says we can use the 4x8 CNC Router at the DCRL.

Figure out the plans, get the wood, and we can cut it.


Pete

On 4/23/13 9:53 AM, Ron Bean wrote:

[Eric Berna]

The plans I saw were very specific. They showed exact part layouts for each piece, including screw and dowel locations. Assuming we want an official track, we'd want to CNC cut those exact parts according to that plan.

Eric Berna

[Ron Bean]

>The plans I saw were very specific. They showed exact part layouts for
>each piece, including screw and dowel locations.

Do you have a link to those plans?
I don't see them at nerdyderby.com

I haven't been able to find anyone else who's actually built a track
from their plans.

[Pete Prodoehl]

Reviving the thread...

Ron, did you find more details plans? I can ask Matt Richardson if there are more files.

And as I mentioned, Frankie said we can use the DCRL 4x8 CNC Router if needed.

It would be ideal to get the track done before the Grand Opening.

I'm more than happy to facilitate this stuff, but can't take the lead on building the track.


Pete

[Eric Berna]

Ron and I went over the plans, and we have the files needed to make the official track. What we need is six sheets of smooth finished void free 4' x 8' x 3/4" plywood, or the funds to buy that wood. 

Eric Berna

[David Buggs]

Let me know who to send electronic funds to, I'm willing to throw in cash for two sheets of this, if we can get donations for two more.  I remember correctly it will take 4 sheets to make the nerdy derby track.  I'd like to be able to use the nerdy derby track at other events to make the racing more interesting.

http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/panel-products/plywood/3-4-x-4-x-8-baltic-birch-plywood/p-1479674-c-5698.htm

I'll also throw open the idea of hacking my track timer.  We can raise the scoreboard to a height that is acceptable to all.  As I recall the width isn't going to change if we are keeping each lane's width as they are.  We can still use the laser start gate and the scoreboard (with modifications) but may need to rethink the retaining device since the design that the pinewood derby track uses most likely won't work with the new nerdy derby track design.

Buggs

[Pete Prodoehl]

Thanks Buggs!

I'd toss $20 towards making a track happen.

Anyone else?

Pete

[David Buggs]

Ok, 3 sheets is half what is needed, I can go $200.  Twice that amount is still less than what I paid for the original track and timer 12 years ago.

Anyone find an alternative to this ply for less $$$?  It was the first thing I saw when I googled for decent 3/4" plywood

Buggs

[David Buggs]

What if we used MDF and coated it with a thick layer of acrylic?  MDF meets the "no voids" criteria and it is certainly cheaper than 3/4" ply.  Any thoughts?

Buggs

[Tom Gralewicz]

MDF can be brittle in long thin pieces.  How about the core being MDF and the outer layers being plywood?

Tom

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[Kevin Crowley]

Me, I like OSB, AKA wonderwood.  any voids will be small and the look will be decidedly industrial.

[David Buggs]

Or sandwiching plywood as separators between each lane to provide the necessary support for a MDF surface that the cars would run upon.  That sounds like it would help negate the brittleness issue. 

Buggs

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:41 PM, Tom Gralewicz <m...@ieee.org> wrote:

[Pete Prodoehl]

I just wanted to revive this thread... Anyone else besides Buggs and myself willing to toss a little money towards the track?

We can get Frankie to CNC it for us on the 4x8 router, so all we really need is cash for the wood, right?

Pete

Buggs

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[Ed Hagopian]

I can pop 20

[Pete Prodoehl]

Thanks Ed!

We're up to $240 now.

    http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/projects/nerdyderby

Anyone else want to pitch in a few bucks?

Also, do we have an estimate as to the total cost of the wood?


Pete

On 5/15/13 7:44 AM, Ed Hagopian wrote:

I can pop 20

[Shane]

When I get paid, I'll happily pitch $20. (Though that could be as much as a month away.)

[Pete Prodoehl]

Thanks Shane!

I've added your pledge with a note that says "July"

Up to $260 now.

Pete

[Kevin Crowley]

Pete, If you would do the same for me.

I really think you should consider OSB instead of plywood.  A sheet of 3/4" OSB is 1/3 the cost of a sheet of 3/4" plywood.

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[Pete Prodoehl]

The same as in "put you down for $20 in July"? Done.

As for OSB, MDF, plywood, etc... I am not qualified to make the call on the materials, and I hope someone smarter than myself can do that.

I'm just trying to facilitate this project getting funded and completed.

I think whoever pitches in the most cash gets to decide on materials, and right now that is Buggs. :)


Pete

[David Buggs]

Previously in this thread there was discussion of a sandwiching of materials to offset the brittleness of MDF against the difficulty of getting a smooth edged surface by stacking OSB side by side.  

Another option might be to affix a veneer to the edge of a stack of OSB to get a smooth track surface.

I haven't done enough work with OSB to have a strong opinion on how it would come out after milling and then sanding the edges of a laminated block of material.

Buggs

[Pete Prodoehl]

If no one on the list (or interested in this project) has a good opinion on materials and finishing, I can see if Frankie has any ideas.


Pete

Buggs

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[Vishal Rana]

Count me in for $40 for the track materials.

Vishal

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[Pete Prodoehl]

Awesome! We're over $300 towards building a track.

Now, can anyone help determine the materials needed?


Pete

=

[Ed Hagopian]

I'd recommend something other than OSB unless you plan on putting veneer on the edge. Might be interesting to take some 1/8th plexi, edge light it from the inside of the center track and use that as veneer. OSB is just so damn ugly.

[Kevin Crowley]

OSB that has been cut with a router is just as smooth as plywood.  I've checked.   Both have similar void issues.  MDF would be smoother and voidless.  There is a brittleness issue with MDF but given the thickness of the glued up track not much of an issue.  OSB is cheapest.  MDF is next  Plywood is most expensive.

--

[Eric Berna]

Are we trying to duplicate the original Nerdy Derby track, or are we trying to make/hack/improve/redesign a track based on the Nerdy Derby track? If the former, we'll need plywood. If the latter we can use anything. Whichever is chosen, the races will be fun. 

How do we decide? 

Eric Berna

[Kevin Crowley]

The basic design of the nerdy derby track is fine but except for a notation to use 3/4" ply there is absolutely no  requirement to use plywood.  We can use plywood.  It's just expensive.

[Eric Berna]

The material at the surface of the track that touches the cars will influence the performance of the cars. Plywood will perform differently from MDF or OSB. So the choice of material is important. 

There's no requirement that we duplicate the original Nerdy Derby track. But if we do want to duplicate the original we do need to use the same material.

The paralyzing problem we have is deciding if we want a duplicate or a derivative. I propose we give those donating funds votes proportional to their donation size. One dollar, one vote.

So, Buggs (and other contributors), should we make a duplicate (plywood) or a derivative (other materials)?

Eric Berna

[David Buggs]

I'd say we build a derivative, I've never done much of anything strictly by the book. :)

Buggs

[Kevin Crowley]

My thought is to use OSB for the center 2 sections and MDF for the outside sections.  That would give the smoothest running surface at the lowest cost. 

[Eric Berna]

Since the function of the center section is to keep the car on the track, the center is a running surface,  as the wheels rub up against the center. Therefore OSB may not be appropriate. I suggest making a short track section on the MMS CNC router out of these materials, just to check. 

Maybe we can make the center out of three layers, sandwiching OSB between two layers of other, smoother material such as MDF or thin plywood. 

Maybe we can make the whole track out of OSB, and laminate a smooth surface to the racing surface. We could use scraps of countertop laminate material. Anybody know somebody who makes countertops that may have scraps they could donate?

Eric Berna

[Ed Hagopian]

If your maximizing for smoothness, you could always throw some epoxy or thick polyurethane on the edges.

Frankly, I like the idea of doing something derivative as long as we held to the arch and angle of the original track, which I really liked because it tended to even things out, and just looked cooler.

 

Following the Maker spirit, I like the idea of taking something and improving on it while keeping to the original intent.

 

For example, I don't remember seeing things routed into the side of the track. That is prime real estate to do something awesome without affecting how the track works.

Buggs

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[Have Blue]

Or for the actual track surface itself, we could just glue down a strip of 1/32" plastic onto the plywood.  McMaster has 1" wide 1/32" nylon strip for 34 cents per foot.

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[Brent Bublitz]

+1 for Have blue's idea. It's replaceable as well.

[Ed Hagopian]

And if its clear it can be side lit for Trony awesomeness.

[David Buggs]

My thought on this approach would be a concern over the edges of these 1" strips being but jointed against one another and not lying flat since the area between one lane to the next is more than 1".  Additionally, the center strip needs to have smooth sides since the inside of the wheels ride along this to "steer" the car down the track.  The "cars" will have significantly different widths & heights (not the standard scout kit car) but will need to use the center guide to steer them down the track.  Am I missing something on that differs here in the design of the Nerdy Derby track vs a std track like the one I own?

Buggs

[Ed Hagopian]

They are three separate tracks, so I think what we are saying is that we would have to cut down the strips to the width of the side of one lane..

Buggs

Buggs

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[David Buggs]

Correct

Buggs

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[Have Blue]

Butt joints would normally be an issue, but I specifically checked McMaster for plastic strip available in continuous lengths.  Of course, butt joints will be a concern no matter what the construction method if the track is built in sections for easy storage/transport.

The center strip needing smooth sides is an issue I thought of as well, but I haven't had any great ideas to address it thus far.

Buggs

Buggs

[Ed Hagopian]

As long as the trailing edge overlaps or is above the leading edge if the next section it should be ok. Like roof shingles.

[Pete Prodoehl]

Lots of good ideas in this thread, and so far we've got 6 people pitching in cash (over $300) to fund the track...

We've got Frankie at UWM's DCRL ready to cut things on the 4x8 CNC Router...

So now we just need to figure out the materials, design, and build.

As mentioned, I think Buggs should be the main decision maker, as he's paying for most of it.

Does any one person want to step up lead this thing as far as the choice of materials and design?

Is $300 enough to cover the build?


Pete

[Kevin Crowley]

$300 is enough for a 6 lane track if we use MDF and OSB.  If we use plywood we will need about $450.  That estimate only covers glue, fasteners and sheet goods.  No finishes.

If we keep the smooth side of the OSB on the wheel sides of the central raised portion of the track that should be smooth enough.

I'm happy to help or lead.

[Ed Hagopian]

As presumably if we need to smooth the track via plastic, etc, we'll be able to. I agree with Kevin.

Buggs

Buggs

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[Tom Gralewicz]

My advice:  Build the track and they will come.

Its not about speed, its about getting to the end first.  If all the cars have the same track (even if its just a pile of sand) they the actual track doesn't matter.

But if you never build it, then it doesn't matter what it could have been made of.

Tom

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Tom Gralewicz
Miller Electronics Recycling
(414) 380-1716
www.deadcomputers.com

[Kevin Crowley]

If Buggs signs off I'll take lead.

[David Buggs]

I'm good with it all.  I'll be at the space over the weekend, who is collecting $ or should I send it via Dowilla to someone?

Buggs

[Kevin Crowley]

I believe Pete was handling that detail though I am more than willing to be wrong.

[Pete Prodoehl]

The money should go to whoever is planning on acquiring the materials

But before that, can we see a complete BOM and plans?


Pete

Buggs

Buggs

Buggs

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Miller Electronics Recycling
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[Kevin Crowley]

Does someone have a .dxf file for the nerdy derby track?  That would save me a few days.

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[Eric Berna]

I have a copy of it somewhere on my other computer. Give me some time to post the plans later today. Did anybody start a MMS wiki page for this project?

Eric Berna

[Kevin Crowley]

I tried but what I thought was my username and password didn't work.

[Eric Berna]

The plans for the Nerdy Derby track are at:

http://www.bernafamily.com/Open_Source_Nerdy_Derby.zip

Eric Berna

[Kevin Crowley]

I had those.  Can someone convert the .dwg to a dxf it would help me.

[Pete Prodoehl]

Oh yeah, plans were here all the time...

There is a PDF and an AI file, they should open in Inkscape and you can then convert to DXF.

Let me know if you fail at it, and I can give it a shot when I get some free time.


Pete

On Saturday, May 25, 2013 10:34:00 PM UTC-5, Kevin Crowley wrote:

I had those.  Can someone convert the .dwg to a dxf it would help me.

On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Eric Berna <er...@bernafamily.com> wrote:

The plans for the Nerdy Derby track are at:

http://www.bernafamily.com/Open_Source_Nerdy_Derby.zip

Eric Berna

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[Kevin Crowley]

Off to install inkscape.

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[Pete Prodoehl]

Kevin, what is your status with the track?

Frankie stopped by the Makerspace last night, and he's ready to start cutting whatever we need.

Buggs, I think it's your call, as you're kicking in the most cash, but Frankie said he can make it work within whatever we supply to him.

Frankie, here's the wiki link:

    http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/projects/nerdyderby

And link to the design files:

    http://2xlnetworks.net/ftp/download.cgi?code=490cyw



Pete

[Kevin Crowley]

Right now I am trying to lay things out to make most economical use of material and minimize the number of joints in the track.  I should have that done Mondayish.  I am also making a slight change in the joints to make them more structural and hopefully self aligning.  As it stands most of the sections will be 6.5-7.5 ft long.  One of the debates I am having is to have the holes pre-drilled by the router.  Leaning that way at the moment.  It would make clamping and alignment simple and then we can fill the holes with a contrasting color dowel.

[David N Buggs]

Dang, I should have swung by HD and bought sheet goods today when I dropped off the darkroom door. 

 

I haven’t worked with OSB to feel qualified to make the decision on its appropriateness.

 

Let me know I can send money or make a trip back to MKE and pickup the sheet goods and deliver them wherever.

 

D N Buggs

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[Pete Prodoehl]

Kevin C., any status update on the track design?

Buggs (and others) should we see if Frankie wants to take over dealing with the design files and cutting the pieces?

According to the wiki page we've got $325 pledged to the project:

  http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/projects/nerdyderby

Frankie, I'd love to see this be a collaborative project between DCRL and MMS, and maybe even get students involved in building & racing some cars.

Thoughts?


Pete

[David N Buggs]

I’m fine with Frankie, Kevin or anyone else that is up to speed taking the lead on this.  I’ll send them $.  There is a good chance I will make it to the space tonight if we need to finalize things.

[Pete Prodoehl]

Awesome...

Here's the response I got from Frankie today:

  "YES!! We can be all over this. I have a group of students working this summer that will eat this up! Well get started on the files this week."


Pete

[Kevin Crowley]

I got delayed with my wife in the hospital or doing the ER thing.  Her asthma has been bad all month..  If frankie wants to generate the files that's fine.  I'm still about two days out on getting them done.

[Ed Hagopian]

Pete there was 5 bucks in with the addy and xbees box on your shelf that was meant for the track so I still owe 15 - work has been evil for getting down to the space sorry. I can PayPal it if needed right away.

[Pete Prodoehl]

Hello Makers!

Fear not, our Nerdy Derby Track has not bee added to the list of Abandoned Projects... things are moving along nicely!

Frankie has worked up the design files, and now just needs to acquire all the materials.

Ed H. and I just sent him money, and Buggs will probably do so very soon. ;)

According to the old wiki page:

    http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/projects/nerdyderby

Shane T., Kevin C., and Vishal all pledged a bit of money as well.

If you guys can either send it to Frankie via PayPal to sold...@hotmail.com or somehow get them money to me, I can pass it on.


(And yeah, we should plan for a massive Nerdy Derby event at Milwaukee Maker Fest.)


Pete

[Shane T.]

This is terrible, but I'm afraid I need to back out for now.

If I make some more sales, I can contribute, but right now that money is earmarked for registration/vendor fees.

Sorry.

[Tom Gralewicz]

What happened to using the 2" plywood from the auction?

Tom

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[Pete Prodoehl]

I have no clue what this plywood from an auction is...

Never the less, the track is moving along with the help of students, so we're helping people learn valuable skills.

Are we awesome yet?


Pete

[Tom Gralewicz]

The big sheets of 2" thick plywood, some of which is being used for the CNC router base and hack rack shelves.

Tom