Does MMS accept Bitcoin donations?

[Mizery De Aria]

Does Milwaukee Makerspace accept Bitcoin donations?  See http://weusecoins.com/ and http://bitcoin.org/

[jason gessner]

not at the moment.

-jason

[Adam Cohen]

I had never heard of bitcoin. But now that I've read about it, it
seems like a pretty bad idea.

On May 9, 10:20 pm, jason gessner <ja...@multiply.org> wrote:
> not at the moment.
>
> -jason
>

[Brent Bublitz]

It does seem a little unnecessary considering PayPal and all the other rmicropayment systems that are out there.

Brent

[Ross Oldenburg]

I think it's yet another example of "I know things like this already
exist, but my way is better because it's shinier and it's
'decentralized'". Just think of how much innovation there would
really be on the Internet if people would stop reinventing the wheel
because they think theirs is more round...

</cynicism>

[Brent Bublitz]

Innovation comes by building on the work that came before and deciding that the status quo is not good enough. Paypal was just a reinvention of money-moving services like western union and such. What you have to do is find where an idea is lacking or limited in some way and fix it. In this case Bitcoin does not really address any existing problems and makes the process slightly more complicated.

Brent

[Ross Oldenburg]

Yeah, I didn't meant to knock anybody's intent to donate to MMS.
Realize though that it's an LLC and not a tax-exempt non-profit, so no
deductions.

I agree about innovation. Certainly there's a difference between
doing something for creative or personal reasons, or as an exercise
(why else are there like 8,000,000 Content Mangement Systems or Linux
distros that go nowhere?) But as far as running a business or some
sort of campaign thinly veiled as a business, there has to be
something to set it apart. In this case, it just seems like a
buzzword... "decentralized"... "cloud money?" Money is serious
business and there are a lot of legal issues surrounding it. I don't
think "the proof is left to the reader" is a good idea for moving
money around.

[Mizery De Aria]

I was quite surprised or astonished by the seemingly inaccurate responses or reactions from Milwaukee Makerspace members, so I posted this to http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=7844

In regards to bitcoin seeming unnecessary considering existence of PayPal, bitcoin is not an alternative to PayPal.  Actually, PayPal could include bitcoins as yet another of the hundreds of currencies it accepts.  In regards to Bitcoin as another example of knowing things similar already exist, that is clearly not the case.  Nothing like Bitcoin has existed prior to its existence.  I won't bother participating in this discussion further as I sense it may result in a kind of yet another dramatic troll-liek conversation/discussion involving those that understand and/or accept bitcoin versus those that do not understand and/or do not accept bitcoin.  So, I posted to forum for others to contribute to clearing up any misconceptions or misinformations.  You're welcome to review the forum thread and add your responses if you would liek.

l3estest l2egardedsness,
Miz

[Ross Oldenburg]

I apologize. I didn't fully understand what it was about. I just did
a little more research. Sorry for being so negative and not thinking
before typing. Don't take any of this as a representation of what our
group is actually like in person (digital communications rarely
translate into real life meetings). I can be a bit loose-lipped
(loose-fingered?) sometimes, as I everyone can. For me, the webpages
didn't make it immediately obvious that bitcoin was an alternative
currency with its own economy and can't translate into actual (fiat)
currency. I think some of us were under the impression that it was
another wire service.

massive apologies.

[Adam Cohen]

Well as someone that doesn't understand bitcoin, how do you control
the value of the currency to say, guard against inflation? What are
these "counterfeiting privileges to the banksters"? Do you mean the
Federal Reserve? This bank serves a very important purpose, and the
power it has to regulate the dollar has saved our asses before. And
how does a new currency prevent "no more austerity measures for the
ppl of the world". Please explain for my benefit. There is no drama
here. I want to learn.

On May 10, 12:01 pm, Ross Oldenburg <oldenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I apologize.  I didn't fully understand what it was about.  I just did
> a little more research.  Sorry for being so negative and not thinking
> before typing.  Don't take any of this as a representation of what our
> group is actually like in person (digital communications rarely
> translate into real life meetings).  I can be a bit loose-lipped
> (loose-fingered?) sometimes, as I everyone can.  For me, the webpages
> didn't make it immediately obvious that bitcoin was an alternative
> currency with its own economy and can't translate into actual (fiat)
> currency.  I think some of us were under the impression that it was
> another wire service.
>
> massive apologies.
>

> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Mizery De Aria <mizerydea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I was quite surprised or astonished by the seemingly inaccurate responses or
> > reactions from Milwaukee Makerspace members, so I posted this to
> >http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=7844
>
> > In regards to bitcoin seeming unnecessary considering existence of PayPal,
> > bitcoin is not an alternative to PayPal.  Actually, PayPal could include
> > bitcoins as yet another of the hundreds of currencies it accepts.  In
> > regards to Bitcoin as another example of knowing things similar already
> > exist, that is clearly not the case.  Nothing like Bitcoin has existed prior
> > to its existence.  I won't bother participating in this discussion further
> > as I sense it may result in a kind of yet another dramatic troll-liek
> > conversation/discussion involving those that understand and/or accept
> > bitcoin versus those that do not understand and/or do not accept bitcoin.
> > So, I posted to forum for others to contribute to clearing up any
> > misconceptions or misinformations.  You're welcome to review the forum
> > thread and add your responses if you would liek.
>
> > l3estest l2egardedsness,
> > Miz
>

> > On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Brent Bublitz <phot...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Innovation comes by building on the work that came before and deciding
> >> that the status quo is not good enough. Paypal was just a reinvention of
> >> money-moving services like western union and such. What you have to do is
> >> find where an idea is lacking or limited in some way and fix it. In this
> >> case Bitcoin does not really address any existing problems and makes the
> >> process slightly more complicated.
>
> >> Brent
>

> >> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Ross Oldenburg <oldenb...@gmail.com>

> >> wrote:
>
> >>> I think it's yet another example of "I know things like this already
> >>> exist, but my way is better because it's shinier and it's
> >>> 'decentralized'".  Just think of how much innovation there would
> >>> really be on the Internet if people would stop reinventing the wheel
> >>> because they think theirs is more round...
>
> >>> </cynicism>
>

> >>> On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Brent Bublitz <phot...@gmail.com>

> >>> wrote:
> >>> > It does seem a little unnecessary considering PayPal and all the other
> >>> > rmicropayment systems that are out there.
>
> >>> > Brent
>
> >>> > On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Adam Cohen

> >>> > <adam.cohen.mail...@gmail.com>

[Adam Cohen]

Also, the fact that no party can freeze your account isn't necessarily
a good thing. I don't have any fear that my assets will be frozen,
and if they are it is likely for a legitimate reason, like I'm a
Madoff like felon, or a mass murderer like Kadaffi.

[Brent Bublitz]

I guess that I just don't see that the minimal benefits outweigh the hastle of using it as it has not been designed to overcome any major disadvantage of other systems. Also, once my money is in this system, I can't easily get it out to go buy groceries or gas in any timely manner. With Paypal or similar services, the debit card works instantly.

Brent

[Matt Gauger]

Individual members represent the Makerspace online and in person, but they are not customer service representatives of the Makerspace. They're also entitled to their own opinions, and to researching (or not) something put in front of them. I myself am not an officer of the Makerspace, and so I'm not speaking officially on this matter; it is merely my own opinion.

No offense, but this has come off as a targeted attempt to provoke a response that you can post on your website, like you've done at http://www.bitcoin.org/smf/index.php?topic=909.0;wap2

I can understand wanting to spread the word about Bitcoin and try to encourage more organizations to use it. But you also said very little in your initial email, which unfortunately led to some assumptions and misconceptions being made here.

If a number of members had requested it, and they had first been educated to its benefits, the Makerspace would have considered payment in that form. It's likely that it use would be voted on by the members at a meeting, after its benefits and drawbacks had been debated. The mailing list remains a good place to learn about things before meetings where things come to a vote, but it is not the deciding forum of the Makerspace and its policies.

-- Matt Gauger

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Adam Cohen <adam.cohe...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
Matt Gauger
http://blog.mattgauger.com

http://twitter.com/mathiasx

[Ross Oldenburg]

Thanks, Matt. Very diplomatic.

Again, these are my own opinions, not those of Milwaukee Makerspace, LLC.

I agree with Matt. These two things come off very differently:

1. "Do you accept Bitcoin? See <link> and <link>."

2. "I am a member of the Bitcoin community and I think it would be of
great benefit for Milwaukee Makerspace to get involved with it for
reasons X, Y, and Z. If you're unfamiliar with it, it is
<explanation>. Please see <link> and <link> for more information."

#1 is, as Matt pointed out, designed to illicit a controversial
response. That's what trolling is. It's like posting "WHO IS JOHN
GALT" everywhere.

#2 is making your case and is much more likely to engage people in
less frenetic and less emotional debate. Keep in mind that we are a
group of tinkerers and entrepreneurs, not digital revolutionaries or
open source freedom fighters. Some of us are, but not the group as a
whole.

We really are open to any and all ideas, but you need to expect some
skepticism and inquiry (and even negativity) if all you're doing is
promoting a cause and asking the group to adopt a policy at large
without providing reasons why it's a good idea. Some of us are very
passionate people, but don't be dissuaded from getting involved with
MMS just because we want to have a discussion. We're really not that
scary!

Again, sorry for going overboard earlier. Nobody meant any offense.

--Ross

[Adam Cohen]

Also, can you buy drill bits with bitcoins? no pun intended.

On May 10, 1:44 pm, Brent Bublitz <phot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess that I just don't see that the minimal benefits outweigh the hastle
> of using it as it has not been designed to overcome any major disadvantage
> of other systems. Also, once my money is in this system, I can't easily get
> it out to go buy groceries or gas in any timely manner. With Paypal or
> similar services, the debit card works instantly.
>
> Brent
>

[Matt Gauger]

I actually don't think his initial question was intended to inflame a negative response, but it was not followed up with proper explanation.

Pete Prodoehl has very successfully asked photographers all over Flickr and the internet if they would consider Creative Commons licensing their photos. His question is nearly the same as Mizery's initial question.

-- Matt

[Ross Oldenburg]

I didn't mean that it was intended to be negative; just that it was
intended to provoke a response (probably to share on that webpage).

There's nothing wrong with advocacy. It was the lack of explanation
in the original post and the fact that the bitcoin homepage doesn't
make it obvious that it has nothing to do with real money (Can I
exchange Bitcoins for dollars? Somehow I gather that's "not the
point". But we can't pay the landlord in Bitcoins.) that, I think,
provoked the negativity.

When WISPIRG stops me on the street to ask for donations, they tell me
what their cause is and why it would be beneficial for me to donate.
They don't just say "here, read this and get back to me."

Personally, I AM open to the idea, but it doesn't seem to be very
widely adopted, and we need dollars to run the Makerspace. Perhaps
Bitcoin is something for members to consider involving themselves in
individually, not the group as a whole.

Sorry for the drama.... I'm just going to step back before I get
kicked out of the group or something...

[Adam Cohen]

I found this gem on the bitcoin forum in response to my concerns about
the project.

"He's either stupid or lives in another universe where tax payers
haven't bailed out banks for the second time recently".

Now this guy has pushed my buttons. I'm not going to register on
their forum as I have better things to concern myself with. But I
would have replied with equal brevity and tact.

"Bitcoins are retarded, stop wasting your life."

> > On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Adam Cohen <adam.cohen.mail...@gmail.com>

[Pete Prodoehl]

It is worth mentioning that Mizery De Aria asked the same question to the DHMN list 1 minute after he asked this list.

I don't know if he sent emails to 2 lists today, or 200, or 2000.... He may just be an excited evangelist of the technology. Does he live in Wisconsin? Near Milwaukee? Near Appleton? Dunno... Maybe he's doing a poll of all sorts of people/groups about their Bitcoin acceptance.

As for Creative Commons... Did I do that!? Wow, I must be awesome...

Pete

[Have Blue]

Bitcoin is actually really interesting from a technology standpoint -
the 'Security Now' podcast covered the crypto system nicely a few
months ago: http://www.grc.com/sn/sn-287.htm

As far as being a viable currency, however, I'm pretty skeptical.
Given that the exchange rate has skyrocketed lately, it's possible
that people with bitcoin hoards are hoping to drive up the market and
cash in. While the EFF accepts bitcoin donations, I'm guessing
they're just as much at a loss as to what to do with them as the
makerspace would be.

[Tom Gralewicz]

I have seen a number of these schemes (<- used intentionally) in the past at a number of levels.  Much of the motivation is to avoid taxes:  both sales and income.

My two comments on that motivation are:

1)  You get what you pay for - if you don't want police, roads, schools, laws, prisons, etc. than stop using them and you won't have to pay for them because someone who wants something you have will shoot you and take it.

2)  If it gets big enough to get the governments attention, it will get taxes - sales tax covers barter as a taxable transaction and we all know the IRS will get its due :-)

Tom

--
Tom Gralewicz
Miller Electronics Recycling
(414) 380-1716
www.deadcomputers.com

[Ron Bean]

Ross Oldenburg <olde...@gmail.com> writes:

>But we can't pay the landlord in Bitcoins.

This would be a key sticking point, because almost all of our cash flow
goes toward the rent, and the group was set up that way on purpose.

Other minor expenditures include the soda fund and the shop supply fund,
and occasional things like T shirts, stickers, posters, etc. Bitcoins
would be useful to the group as a whole if we could use them to buy
those specific items. Until or unless bitcoin gets to be a *lot* more
popular, in-kind donations would be a lot more useful to us.

(If you could convince the landlord to accept bitcoins, that would make
a difference-- but remember that he has business partners, and you'd
have to convince all of them. And what could *they* spend them on that
would be of interest to them?)

Individual group members might be interested if they could spend them at
places like SparkFun or Digikey, or various surplus dealers. I don't see
any point in seeking out random people who accept payment in bitcoins if
we wouldn't buy anything from them otherwise.

[Ron Bean]

Adam Cohen <adam.cohe...@gmail.com> writes:

>I found this gem on the bitcoin forum in response to my concerns about

>the project.1

>
>"He's either stupid or lives in another universe where tax payers
>haven't bailed out banks for the second time recently".

Heh. Welcome to the internet.

"He doesn't agree with me so he must be stupid."

(Also "uninformed=stupid")

[Ron Bean]

Tom Gralewicz <m...@ieee.org> writes:

>I have seen a number of these schemes (<- used intentionally) in the past at
>a number of levels.

If you want an alternative currency, try "Canadian Tire money":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Tire_money

The article says it's not a "private currency", but it also says:

"Some privately owned businesses (in Canada) accept CTM as payment (see
history below), since the owners of many such businesses shop at
Canadian Tire."

There is also an "exchange rate" with the Canadian dollar-- some people
will buy Canadian Tire money in bulk (at a discount) to save people the
hassle of redeeming it.

See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_currency

[photozz]

Hm..

http://launch.is/blog/l019-bitcoin-p2p-currency-the-most-dangerous-project-weve-ev.html

Brent

[Tom Gralewicz]

Most of that article is rampant speculation about things are are Going to happen.

I haven't looked at the details, but they describe adding information to the end of a bit coin to validate it - doesn't that make it traceable?

This article seem more concerned about hyping bit coins than actually dissing the idea.

All in all, it looks like a high tech Ponzi scheme.

Tom

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:50 AM, photozz <pho...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hm..

http://launch.is/blog/l019-bitcoin-p2p-currency-the-most-dangerous-project-weve-ev.html

Brent

[Tom Gralewicz]

Did anyone else notice, no more input from our mysterious mizerydea since the original post.  

Tom

[Chris C]

I believe thats because [s]he chose to stop participating in the conversation...quote: "

I won't bother participating in this discussion further as I sense it may result in a kind of yet another dramatic troll-liek conversation/discussion involving those that understand and/or accept bitcoin versus those that do not understand and/or do not accept bitcoin.

[photozz]

I usually go with my gut on things like this, and my gut is saying this will end poorly for a lot of people. There is no such thing as an un-hackable digital system.

Brent

[jason gessner]

ah, i forgot that the troll who jumped into our list to stir the pot called us all trolls and took his toys and went home instead of providing any actual information about bitcoin.  :)

-jason

[Tom Gralewicz]

We can always set up a bitcoin mill, I have 100+ systems we could fire up generating bitcoins, then we can all be rich!

:-)

Tom

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 9:47 AM, photozz <pho...@gmail.com> wrote:

I usually go with my gut on things like this, and my gut is saying this will end poorly for a lot of people. There is no such thing as an un-hackable digital system.

Brent

[Ross Oldenburg]

I'll see if I can still log into the 3,000 core cluster at UWM. :)

[Chris C]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-20070268-17/senators-target-bitcoin-currency-citing-drug-sales/

[Shane]

Do you know about the author of that article, Brent? It seemed a
little, uh, "staged" I guess would be the right word. It's entirely
possible that it was written with good intent, but if I didn't know
better I would suspect that the people behind Bitcoin might have
written it (or had it written) in order to create a buzz.

On May 16, 8:50 am, photozz <phot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hm..
>
> http://launch.is/blog/l019-bitcoin-p2p-currency-the-most-dangerous-pr...
>
> Brent

[Shane]

Oops. I didn't realize that there was another page to this thread.
Looks like Tom had the roughly the same idea.

[Brent Bublitz]

Know what else causes some buzz? Loosing 30% if your value in one day. http://www.dailytech.com/Digital+Black+Friday+First+Bitcoin+Depression+Hits/article21877.htm

It recovered somewhat, but it serves to point out how volatile the currency is. Now tat PayPal has cut them off, there is no easy and fast way to do monetary conversions.

Brent

[Have Blue]

Paypal has only cut off a single Bitcoin exchange - I'm sure many other exchanges exist or will be started that use Paypal as a mechanism (though they'll probably be quashed, only to have more appear, etc.)

While the value stability and utility of Bitcoin is certainly in question at this point, its resiliency is quite remarkable.

- Michael

[Chris C]

http://gizmodo.com/5812125/a-500000-geek-cyberheist

[Adam Cohen]

If there is a human being out there willing pay 500,000 dollars for
any amount of bit coins, they need to have their head examined.

Again I repeat what a dumb-ass idea Bitcoin is.

On Jun 15, 11:25 am, Chris C <shiba009...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://gizmodo.com/5812125/a-500000-geek-cyberheist
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Have Blue <haveb...@airsoldier.com> wrote:
> >  Paypal has only cut off a single Bitcoin exchange - I'm sure many other
> > exchanges exist or will be started that use Paypal as a mechanism (though
> > they'll probably be quashed, only to have more appear, etc.)
>
> > While the value stability and utility of Bitcoin is certainly in question
> > at this point, its resiliency is quite remarkable.
>
> > - Michael
>
> > On 6/12/2011 11:33 AM, Brent Bublitz wrote:
>
> > Know what else causes some buzz? Loosing 30% if your value in one day.

> >http://www.dailytech.com/Digital+Black+Friday+First+Bitcoin+Depressio...

>
> > It recovered somewhat, but it serves to point out how volatile the currency
> > is. Now tat PayPal has cut them off, there is no easy and fast way to do
> > monetary conversions.
>
> > Brent
>

[Have Blue]

I think the larger issue is that there's no end-user security with
Bitcoin. If I were a malware writer, I'd be coding up a virus to
siphon off any Bitcoin wallets it came across. Plus, unless you're
good about making backups, you're just a hard drive crash away from
losing your Bitcoin wallet.

[Shane]

Speak of the devil: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/06/bitcoin-malware/

I will not be delving into the bitcoin argument, but I think the above
article speaks for itself.

[Pete Prodoehl]

BitCoin is old news! You need BitCorn!

http://www.bitcorn.org/


Pete

[Ross Oldenburg]

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/070411/anonymous-cryptotarian-anarchist-currency.gif

[Matt McElligott]

Lol this thread is gold now... way to really get ahead of the curve guys!

[Adam Cohen]

I really thought this was a scam. Now Bitcoin is like sorta a thing. I have softened my position a bit.  I think the idea of digital currency is good, but it needs to be backed and regulated by a state or real institution.

[Joe Buck]

Which reminds me-  I'm starting my own digital currency called BuckCoins.  I'm wondering if I can pay my dues in BuckCoins.  To make this easy for the MMS accounting folk, I've set the initial valuation and 1 BuckCoin = $40.

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[Matt McElligott]

yea its sort of like, except not at all.

whats mildly depressing to me is that this is a group of independent, self-starting, technology focused people, and the first reaction to a revolutionary technology, protocol, and payment system is to make fun and try to be the alpha nerd about it. obviously bitcoin wasn't in the communities approved lexicon and this is what happens. no wonder Milwaukee is about 15 years behind the rest of the world.

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[Jerry [HM]]

Do you use bitcoin?

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[Jason Hilleshiem]

15 years behind the rest of the world is not a bad thing. We get to see what works and what doesn't work. If bitcoins work, we will jump on the bandwagon eventually. 

[Matt McElligott]

Yes, I use bitcoin regularly. I really like it because its an awesome technology (cryptography, p2p networking) but more so, it actually has the power to actually change the world. I wont get into too much political stuff, but I'd rather create a new system than try to fight the current one. 3d printing and bitcoins together have the potential to entirely change the face of global manufacturing and finance. To me thats exciting.

And maybe you're right, if you like being 15 years behind then continue with your head in sand. I will be create new things and sharing them with people.

Oh and also, being on the forefront can have it's tangible benefits as well. At the time of this OP (5/9/2011) the price of 1 bitcoin was $5. Its now around $100. 

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 10:51:16 AM UTC-5, J.Dugan wrote:

Do you use bitcoin?

 

From: milwaukee...@googlegroups.com [mailto:milwaukee...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Matt McElligott
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 10:45 AM
To: milwaukee...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MakerSpace] Re: Does MMS accept Bitcoin donations?

 

yea its sort of like, except not at all.

 

whats mildly depressing to me is that this is a group of independent, self-starting, technology focused people, and the first reaction to a revolutionary technology, protocol, and payment system is to make fun and try to be the alpha nerd about it. obviously bitcoin wasn't in the communities approved lexicon and this is what happens. no wonder Milwaukee is about 15 years behind the rest of the world.

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 9:41:19 AM UTC-5, Joe Buck wrote:

Which reminds me-  I'm starting my own digital currency called BuckCoins.  I'm wondering if I can pay my dues in BuckCoins.  To make this easy for the MMS accounting folk, I've set the initial valuation and 1 BuckCoin = $40.

 

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Adam Cohen <adam.cohe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I really thought this was a scam. Now Bitcoin is like sorta a thing. I have softened my position a bit.  I think the idea of digital currency is good, but it needs to be backed and regulated by a state or real institution.

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 9:19:16 AM UTC-5, Matt McElligott wrote:

Lol this thread is gold now... way to really get ahead of the curve guys!

On Monday, May 9, 2011 8:18:21 PM UTC-5, Mizery De Aria wrote:

Does Milwaukee Makerspace accept Bitcoin donations?  See http://weusecoins.com/ and http://bitcoin.org/

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[Brent Bublitz]

That's the problem. Bitcoin is more of an investment vehicle than a legitimate form of reliable payment. It's similar to someone asking to pay for their membership in stock certificates. Not a great thing if you have to plan a budget. How much are my bitcoins worth today? could be $1, could be $100.

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[Have Blue]

I wouldn't even call it an investment vehicle - speculation, perhaps.  I think the design, architecture, and concept of Bitcoin is really neat.  But a good currency system requires stability, and Bitcoin has very little of that.

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[Adam Cohen]

Its still not clear to me what problem bitcoin is trying to solve.  What is wrong with the current system? This seems like the ideal way to launder money, that's about all the appeal I see.

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[Jerry [HM]]

Maybe Im right?  (about what?..asking you if you use it?)

 

Continue to keep my head in the sand?  How so?  What am I hiding/ducking from?..

 

Matter of fact,.. what are you even talking about and getting so upset over?

 

I had no dog in this fight of yours (against whomever or whatever it is you are perceiving s a problem)..

 

I simply asked if you use it (bitcoin)…period.

 

I don’t know much about it.. hadn’t formed any opinion previously.. (are all bitcoins users like you?) and you are the only person I know of that actually has used it…..so I asked.

 

(regrettably)

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[Tom Gralewicz]

It looks more like a futures market without an underlying commodity.

Encryption is great, until someone cracks it.

And P2P systems are wonderful until someone starts abusing them.

[Vishal Rana]

Jerry,

He was referring to a comment by Jason H., not you. 

In fact, there are plenty of people at the makerspace who use bit coins and we have several members who are considered 3D printing experts.

Vishal

[Matt McElligott]

J. Dugan, sorry I am answering 3-4 threads at a time here. I wasn't directing that all at you. My original comment was just that this is a hilarious thread now that bitcoin is widely adopted across the globe.

The value doesn't fluctuate from $1 to $100 like that. Its been steadily on the rise for the past 2 years. Also, there are also 3rd parties who protect merchants from volatility who accept bitcoin (bitpay.com).

Any currency is an investment vehicle. People invest in Euros, franks, yen, and other currencies to diversify. The reason bitcoin went from $5 to $100 is because there is an increased demand. 

The problem that bitcoin solves is that:

1) Money today is created out of thin air by the federal reserve. Like I said, im not trying to get into political stuff, but I like being in control of my money and not the whims of bureaucrats. This creates inflation, crony capitalism, currency devaluation, and so on. 

2) Have you ever tried to send money to someone in another country? It can be expensive and take up to a week. Bitcoin takes 1 hour (each transaction is approved by every node in the network) and costs a fraction of a penny. 

LOL at "cracking" encryption. I'm done here.... see you all in 15 years. 

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[Jerry [HM]]

Oh..sorry.. it seemed to be a direct response to my post/question.. (hence the confusion I guess?)

[Adam Cohen]

I'm sure that with an army of condescending douches trolling the internet, you will achieve your world domination.

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[Matt McElligott]

Also, bitcoin is horrible for money laundering as every transaction on the network can be tracked on the blockchain (http://blockchain.info) http://www.networkworld.com/news/2013/060713-bitcoin-atm-270602.html

On Tuesday, July 23, 2013 11:21:25 AM UTC-5, Adam Cohen wrote:

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[Matt McElligott]

u mad bro?

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[Vishal Rana]

The system is so stable that vendor mentioned earlier (bitpay) will only protect against 15 minutes of volatility.

Vishal

[Matt McElligott]

Yup. what bitpay does is instantly take bitcoin payments at a coffee shop, for instance, and make USD deposits into that coffee shops' account for that amount. So 15 minutes is more than enough..... And i'm the one being condescending? sheesh.

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[Matt Wittmann]

Really is this all necessary.

Matt Wittmann

[David Buggs]

How many local utilities, home improvement stores, insurance companies, or tax authorities accept bitcoins?  I'm not saying it isn't kewl stuff but simply not practical for our use.

Buggs

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Brent Bublitz <pho...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jason Hilleshiem]

Matt M. what is the point you are trying to make here? That the makerspace should use bitcoins?  I get what you are saying about currency, yada yada. But when I read your posts I see a troll. 

If you wanna have a conversation about bitcoins, Awesome! But no one has time for a one-eyed monster.

-Jason H

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Matt Wittmann <mfran...@gmail.com> wrote:

Really is this all necessary.

Matt Wittmann

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[Ron Bean]

>Which reminds me- I'm starting my own digital currency called BuckCoins.

http://dilbert.com/fast/2013-07-22/

[Matt McElligott]

Bitcoin is definitely still in its infancy. Establishments like those arent on board yet (as you can tell most people are still very skeptical :)) The thing is though, you can literally buy anything on the internet with bitcoin. Or you could sell them for USD, and pay your electricity bills as well. 

I'm sorry if im coming across as a troll... i just found this thread amusing and perhaps could be a lesson for some people to think on their own and do a little more research before jumping to conclusions. Maybe i could come down to the makerspace and give a talk on bitcoin, now that everyone hates me lol. 

Buggs

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[Ron Bean]

>How many local utilities, home improvement stores, insurance companies, or
>tax authorities accept bitcoins? I'm not saying it isn't kewl stuff but
>simply not practical for our use.

We are getting to the point where we could accept *donations* in
bitcoins, but not *payments* (eg, membership fees). As long as we don't
have to spend them on anything, we could accept all we want.

When this thread came up originally, 100% of our cash flow went to rent,
which would require finding a landlord who (a) has a suitable building,
and (b) can figure out what to do with a whole bunch of bitcoins (like
pay his mortgage and taxes and such).

These days we have a bit of a surplus, and as long as we don't need to
spend any of that surplus, it doesn't matter if it's in dollars or
Krugerrands or whatever.

Being behind the curve is not at all the same as having your head in the
sand. I try to be ahead of the curve on some things, but purposefully
behind the curve on others, for good reasons. Other people choose to be
ahead of the curve on different things, possibly also for good reasons.

BTW if we ever get to the point where US dollars are worthless, bitcoins
will be the least of your worries.

[Matt McElligott]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. 

Yes, the OP was talking about donations, which could be used to host events, buy supplies, purchase new equipment, etc. I am willing to make a BTC donation to the makerspace out of good faith (and for semi-trolling) if you guys want to setup a wallet.

Being behind the curve doesn't necessarily mean head in the sand, but its one possible reason people are behind the curve.  

[Tony]

Hi Matt,

  I've been intrigued by Bitcoin and have a pretty good understanding of its technical basis, but there are a few things that I can't figure out.  There is probably something here I haven't thought of and would appreciate any insights.

First, it takes a while (tens of minutes to hours depending on how many miners are trustworthy) to form enough of the block chain to be reasonably sure that your transaction has been committed to the "real" chain.  If I buy something at a retail shop would I be willing to stick around for that amount of time after completing a sale?  Of course not.  So the merchant will have to trust a third party to "insure" those transactions for them.  Now we are back to using entities that can be nationally regulated and can potentially become bad actors. 

Second, the block chain and corresponding transaction volume don't scale for individual verification of transactions.  If BC catches on, we are talking about 100's of megabits per second of additions to the chain and terabytes of storage to keep the chain around.  That's well beyond most people's connectivity/storage limits so again users will need to rely on trusted third parties to maintain this for them and we are back to being able to regulate the currency and worrying about bad actors.  This one is a little harder to regulate because it's more difficult to regulate an information source than an insurance provider, but it's still possible.

Third, the whole system provides a significant incentive for miscreants to take over compute cycles of computers they don't own and steal power from others.  Because it's basically an electricity-to-currency system, the more valuable BC becomes, the more incentive people have to steal power from their employer, their school, etc.  Because it's anonymous (yes, I know that every transaction makes it to the block chain, but you can't tell whose power/processor was used to generate the coins) it's relatively easy to steal compute cycles for direct profit.  This type of incentive system doesn't seem to be in the long-term best interest of society.

In the beginning BC addresses many of the current problems with inflatable currencies, but long-term it seems to lead to a very similar situation to the one we have now except that the BC system would float relative to all traditional currencies instead of one single one.  Nations could potentially influence this by controlling the transaction insurers and block chain aggregators within their borders though.  I still haven't been convinced that BC solves more problems than it creates.  Thoughts?

 - Tony

On 07/23/2013 11:36 AM, Matt McElligott created:

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[Ed Hagopian]

If it costs nothing to setup a wallet, I don't see why the space shouldn't. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/How_to_set_up_a_secure_offline_savings_wallet

[Royce Pipkins]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM, Matt McElligott <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm sorry if im coming across as a troll... i just found this thread amusing and perhaps could be a lesson for some people to think on their own and do a little more research before jumping to conclusions. Maybe i could come down to the makerspace and give a talk on bitcoin, now that everyone hates me lol. 

If you are really trying to start something new with Bitcoin, trying to grow the community surrounding Bitcoin, starting off with an antagonizing statement to another community is not really the way to go.

Imagine how this thread might have evolved if your initial message in this thread was something more along the lines of "Hey guys, it's been a while since the last message in this thread. Since that time Bitcoin has really grown. I'll bet you've even seen some articles about it in major publications. Have your opinions changed at all? I'm a believer and an evangelist of Bitcoin and I'd be happy to answer any questions and further explain what BitCoin is and why it exists. Maybe I could come down and give a talk?"

Such a statement would have had a shot at actually growing your community.

What you actually said is more likely to lose potential converts to your cause than gain them. Like you said, Bitcoin is in its infancy. You do Bitcoin no favors by 'semi-trolling'.

--
The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do.
B. F. Skinner

[Matt McElligott]

Hey! I'll see if I can clear some things up.

1) Yea this could be an issue. One solution I see for "instant" transactions like at a coffee shop would be to buy "credits" (or even gift cards) to that coffee shop with BTC (Alterra bucks for instance), and then using those credits as you go to the coffee shop. They would be debited from their account instantly. No one said BTC was better or would completely replace USD, and for things like a cup of coffee maybe USD is better. Secondly, a lot of merchants are now accepting bitcoin with 0 confirmations. Basically, once the transaction shows up on the blockchain (a couple seconds), they are accepting the payment. Yes, its possible for someone to execute a sophisticated double spend at that time, but it probably wouldn't be worth it for a $3 cup of coffee.

2) At this time, mining is not even profitable, and actually would be a net loss, for most people at home. It's already a specialize industry where corporations are setting up huge server farms and mining. I dont see this changing, regardless of the blockchain size, as most personal computers/people arent involved in mining as it is. It is possible, however, for people to invest in mining operations, and receive dividends from that. There are already third parties who oversee and validate these operations. Trust and reputation are huge in the BTC community, and it's in the best interest of BTC entrepreneurs to maintain clean hands.

3) Of course, money will attract miscreants. This isnt unique to BTC. People rob stores, homes, banks, etc because money is valuable. As adoption increases there will be increased security and measures to protect people. Protecting your computer is the responsibility of the individual and not necessarily a flaw of bitcoin. 

4) What current situation are you referring to? Bitcoin is naturally deflationary since there is a limit of 21 million bitcoins, and given its ability to be divided infinitely (practically speaking) it is protected from inflation. 

re: Royce... you're right. I'm not sure if most the replies would have been any different, but I was certainly being uncouth, but in my defense, aside from my first post, I have tried to been straightforward and educational as possible.

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[Brent Bublitz]

Not so stable:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timothylee/2013/04/11/an-illustrated-history-of-bitcoin-crashes/

Bitcoins lost 66% of their value as recently three months ago.

[Brent Bublitz]

Make that 61%. sorry everyone.

[Brent Bublitz]

In fact, looking at long term charts, it has been very volatile and on a decline for the last three months.

http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#rg60ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv

[Jason Hilleshiem]

Whether or not it is stable. Do members think the Makerspace should have a wallet for donations?

[Vishal Rana]

Sure...can't hurt.

Vishal

[Matt McElligott]

Yea it crashed in April because a DDOS at the main exchange caused a panic sell off. Sucks, but thats what happens when you centralize. More exchanges have popped up and it doesnt seem to be an issue any longer. 3 months isn't really long term.... 

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[Brent Bublitz]

Donations, sure. I don't want to see people using Bitcoin to pay for memberships though as it's money that can evaporate through conditions outside our control.

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[Tom Gralewicz]

If the space were to accept BC I would like to see them immediately changed into dollars.  

In my opinion, the space shouldn't be involved in investing or speculating.

Tom

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Matt McElligott <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Miller Electronics Recycling
(414) 380-1716
www.deadcomputers.com

[Ron Bean]

>If the space were to accept BC I would like to see them immediately changed
>into dollars.

And this would have to be automated. I can't see our treasurer (or
anyone else likely to take over that position) wanting to devote any
time to it.

[Tony]

#1 I don't see the "gift card" model scaling.  If I have $20 gift cards at each of the small-dollar places I shop, I would have nearly $1000 tied up in gift cards that can't be used across merchants and a traceable history of everywhere I spend my BC.

#2 Because traditional CPU/GPU mining isn't currently profitable if you pay for the electricity, miners have an incentive to use other people's electricity to do the mining.  Based on my limited conversations with miners, I have a feeling that more than a few miners use other people's electricity because it's not profitable to do so with their own.

#3 I was referring to (unintentionally) encouraging theft through the BC model.  Of course some people commit crimes.  That doesn't mean we (as a society) should create systems that provide greater rewards for that segment of the population.  Let's use car thefts as an example.  In the current system it isn't very profitable to steal from a vehicle because the expected return from each theft and the probability of getting caught make it unattractive for people with decent reasoning skills.  If we put a visible $5 bill in every car and make it extremely difficult to catch thieves, that changes the equation so that car theft starts to make sense from a reward/punishment standpoint.  Now we have to spend more to protect the car or on policing to change that balance back.  Effectively, this shifts the cost of the new system to the car owner.  Before, miscreants had to steal valuable information (like CC info) and then convert that information into something they can sell.  Now, all they have to do is add a little code to a popular game and instantly profit.  It seems like BC shifts the equation towards rewarding theft of computing resources.  This shifts the cost of the BC to computer users in general instead of the users of the currency.

#4 I meant that BC is not inflatable, but because it can be regulated as it grows due to #1 and #2, national governments could simply tax each BC transaction so that BC matches the inflated value of the national currency thereby "inflating" BC.

Don't get me wrong.  I think it's a novel idea and was implemented well.  I still don't see how it can scale and still provide more benefits than costs to the users and society.

 - Tony

On 07/23/2013 01:09 PM, Matt McElligott created:

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[David Buggs]

Do we lump BitCoin into the fundraising that the board approved me to pursue on behalf of MoMi?  If so I'll go ahead and setup a wallet for MoMi.

Buggs

[Tony]

If it's done, it should be done in a way that minimizes MMS liability.� Because it's relatively easy to have BC permanently stolen we should take steps to make this as difficult as practical while still ensuring continued access to the wallet by MMS.� Tom, converting to USD regularly sounds like a good idea as well.

�- Tony

On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Jason Hilleshiem created:

[Jason Hilleshiem]

+1 buggs

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Tony <tony...@gmail.com> wrote:

If it's done, it should be done in a way that minimizes MMS liability.  Because it's relatively easy to have BC permanently stolen we should take steps to make this as difficult as practical while still ensuring continued access to the wallet by MMS.  Tom, converting to USD regularly sounds like a good idea as well.

 - Tony

On 07/23/2013 01:23 PM, Jason Hilleshiem created:

Whether or not it is stable. Do members think the Makerspace should have a wallet for donations?

[Ed Hagopian]

Agreed. Donations only, rapid conversion to USD.

[Matt M]

Been 3 years now since this post started... still hating on the Bitcoin?

[Joe Rodriguez]

Personally, I don't hate bitcoin any more than I hate yen, but it is harder for me to use yen, so I stick with the currency that I have been able to purchase everything I have wanted with.

Thanks,

Joe Rodriguez

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[Pete Prodoehl]

Actually I've become a millionaire in BuckCoins and retired to a farm where I grow BitCorn.


Pete

[Shane T.]

Man, there is nothing better than BitCorn roasted on an open fire.....the, well, everything but sights, smells, and tactile excitement gets me going every time....

[Adam Cohen]

I have to admit that I'll eat some of my words.  Digital Currency is probably not a fad.  It may not be Bit Coins in the end, but I do like the idea of not needing a bank. The financial institutions have way too much power in this world. 

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[Brant]

http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/contprojs?s[]=bitcoin

We're bitcoin-tolerant!

[ChrisH]

Note that Milwaukee Makerspace accepts *coin as a donation, not towards memberships.

[Have Blue]

I'd be careful with using the wildcard notation there, as there are at
least a dozen '-coin' cryptocurrencies in use - I'm guessing Milwaukee
Makerspace doesn't actually have an animecoin wallet, for example.

Out of sheer curiosity, does the space actually have anything in its
bitcoin wallet?

[Joe Rodriguez]

I am not aware of a bit coin wallet. If we do have any, nobody told me.

Thanks,
Joe Rodriguez

[Brant Holeman]

I think David Buggs set it up on our behalf. 

David, do we have a bitcoin wallet?

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Sincerely,

Brant Holeman

President, Milwaukee Makerspace

milwaukeemakerspace.org

[Dont let google be evil]

Been kinda following the bitcoin for some time now -don't own any as yet, not a big priority- but not hating.
The arguments for/against-valuable/not valuable seem like they might rhyme with much of the discussion that dominated this country regarding central finance for maybe the first 100/120 years of it's existence.
   In a "developed world" context, this discussion is likely very political in nature -if you're in China trying to use a medium for online gambling that is not restricted by the state, or trying to send funds to a relative in Congo without getting hit for 20% -maybe not so much.

The bigger question might be:
If MMS has a Bitcoin wallet someplace, and it had 7 Bitcoins in it (approx. $3000 today), should it be immediatly converted to US dollars, or hung on to in hopes that it might return to it's value of like 5 months ago? (about 2-3x today's value

Capital "B", and lower-case "b" were intentionally used in this post.

GreenBeans

[Dont let google be evil]

I'd like to apologize for seeming to force limited conclusions in the earlier post -
One could leave the Bitcoin in to have currency in place for future purchases denominated in Bitcoin etc., convert to another currency and maintain an empty/reduced wallet for future use -there are likely other options as well.

Bitcoin vs. bitcoin was the point I was going toward.
Ford Motor Company is not the only way to get to work. Ford makes nice cars most of the time, and they were largely the first.
The car/get to work image + speculation seems to explain much of the liquidity of the (b)itcoin universe and largely ignores most of the "sound money" discussions being had by many advocates of digital currencies. 

Okay, I'm done I think.
MarsBars