New Imformation on System Restore & Windows Installer Registry Corruption

[Chad Harris]

There have been a number of installation errors  of the July 27th Office 2003 Updates and other Office version updates,  particularly Office 2003 SP1 remedied by Office resource kit tools and other tools like the Windows Installer Cleanup Utility, and I'm pasting this information that has come up from Sloan Crayton [MS] who has been generously helping and providing some useful information on using these Office tools to help with install/setup problems.  Because it involves information I have not seen anywhere, including MSKB, MSDN, Technet or Windows SP2/MSI 3.0 articles and good artifcles on System Restore, I'm pasting some of it here:

 

_______________________________________________________

 

After running the Installer Clean utility to remove remnants of OfficeXP, now if I try to update Office 2003 Pro from the website, this is EXACTLY what I get:
>
>
> The Office Update site is unable to check for updates on this
> computer. This may be happening because of one of the following
> reasons:
>
> You do not have administrative privileges for this computer.
>
> There is a network problem and the detection catalog used by the
> Office Update site failed to download. Go back to the Downloads home
> page and try running detection again.
>
> Windows Installer patch files (.MSP files) from previously applied
> Office updates are missing from the \Windows\Installer hidden
> directory on your computer. MSP files are stored on your computer
> after update installation completes because they need to be referenced
> for future update operations. If the files are missing you will not be
> able to apply Office updates. You may also be unable to uninstall
> Office products as a result of the same problem. Please contact
> Microsoft Product Support Services for assistance.
>
> You installed Office updates in the past and then upgraded from
> Windows Installer version 1.0 to Windows Installer version 1.1. For
> more information see the KB article Windows Installer May Prompt for
> Install Source if Unavailable.
>
> Search for Office updates in the Download Catalog

 

The Problem With System Restore and the Windows Installer Corrected by Windows Installer 3.0

 

(Fixing the Problem but not Fixing the Registry Once It's Corrupted):

 

______________________________________________________________

Windows System Restore will corrupt the Windows Installer registry
information for Office (and other applications).  Windows Installer 3.0
(included in Windows XP SP2 when it ships) will fix this bug

 

The use of Windows System Restore is one of the known causes.  Windows Installer 3.0 which is included in Windows XP SP2 fixes this problem (but will not fix it once it's broken).

You will need to use the Windows Installer Cleanup Utility to remove the
Windows Installer registry information for all installed Office products.
Then you'll need to install Office 2003 again and then install any service
packs and public updates.

 

This is documented in the KB article at
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;304498.

Sloan Crayton
Microsoft

 

_________________________________________________________________

Best,

 

Chad Harris

[Plato]

Chad Harris wrote:
>
> There have been a number of installation errors of the July 27th

Since your going to post in html with a mini font, pick one that is even
smaller to give my eyes an even better workout.

[Chad Harris]

"Plato" <|@|.|> wrote in message
news:41119f96$0$32094$45be...@newscene.com...

[Chad Harris]

Plato--

1) I have and always make it a point to have the font set to *Plain Text.*
I understand the concern about bandwidth and dialup for people not using
broadband. I have never seen anything posted *here* that requests anything
else but plain text in the public groups. I have seen directions in the
Beta groups repeatedly from that if you think there is an appropriate
reason, you can post in html and put up an attachment *from Microsoft,* and
a number of people who have not read that announcement will always reflexly
complain repeatedly anyway if you do.

2) As for the font, I can understand a font size setting if I had
Format>HTML selected because of the addition of the HTML toolbar, but I
don't, and I don't see any additional way with a Plain Text setting to
control the size of what you see, but if you can show me one, I'd be
delighted to set it.
No one would intentionally try to post in any size that is unconfortable for
anyone else, and I haven't had anyone complain that I'm using a "mini-font"
in several hundred posts on these groups. Where's the "minifont" setting
on a plain text OE message? I don't see one.

3) I like big fonts, and because I do, I have View settings at several
different places to insure that everything I see from the OE newsreader is
large from

a) Popping "control desktop" into the run box and setting for large fonts on
the display
properties dialogue box.

b) On the IE toolbar putting a check at Options>Accessibility. This allows
me to use the mouse scroll button to over-ride the size of the text in
OE's NTTP newsreader as well as web pages, whatever the size the poster
used-- it doesn't matter.

c) I have the view on the OE toolbar set to a certain size, but this can be
over-ridden by the accessibility setting.

4) Again, I empathize if anything I posted turned out to be "html mini
font", but I don't know how because I have the Format>Plain Text setting
selected.

5) I like big fonts to the extent that I have gone out of my way to have my
title bars, task bars, and notification area, minimized taskbar buttons, and
menus in much larger than normal sized font and skinned them so that I can
see the colors easily and I can scroll these messages like a rheostat with
that simple Accessibility setting.

Thanks,

Chad Harris

________________________________________________________________________

"Plato" <|@|.|> wrote in message
news:41119f96$0$32094$45be...@newscene.com...

[David Candy]

Select your post and press Ctrl + F3 and scroll down past the plain text you'll see it's html. These groups ARE binary groups and html is allowed. I use html where it is appropiate. Your Font Size is set to 2 but it looks plain text to me because I use IE's View as big text Ctrl + Scroll Wheel.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
'Not happy John! Defending our democracy',
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/29/1088392635123.html

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:efAGWel...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

Plato--

This is another convenience, but I think one of your best bets is to use the
Accessbility chek box so that you can rheostat anythng you see here.

Use Kelly's Tweak Line 227 Left:

Set IE Fonts to Smaller or Larger

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/regs_edits/iesmallertxt.reg

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_tweaks.htm

Best,

Chad Harris
_______________________________________________________________________

"Plato" <|@|.|> wrote in message
news:41119f96$0$32094$45be...@newscene.com...

[Kelly]

Chad,

Bottom line is, you are posting in html.

--
All the Best,
Kelly

Microsoft-MVP Windows® XP
2004 Windows MVP "Winny" Award

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_tweaks.htm

Taskbar Repair Tool Plus!
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/taskbarplus!.htm

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:uigjYJre...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> Plato--
>
> 1) I have and always make it a point to have the font set to *Plain Text.*

<snip>

[Chad Harris]

David--

Thanks for the Ctrl+ F3. Sometimes when I get ready to post I'll see the
html bar click in and think since I'm not using any html selection (bold,
italics, ect.) it's going to show as plain. What probalby happened was it
insured that the paste from Kelly's page would remain small but I can't see
it that way when I open up that post.

I was trying for better or worse to context new information on System
Restore and when I picked up that it could impact the MSI and "installation
of other apps" I pasted from Kelly's page and part of the Sys Restore
article was in a smaller font. I'm still trying to find out what the other
apps are or if it just means the impact on the MSI could affect some apps it
installs. 2 things I don't understand:

Most of the time--if you paste a large font to post, it's not going to show
up as that large font. I'm not talking about setting an html size but if
you pasted the title of an MSKB for example and left it that size, that's
not what you'd see on the newsgroup. If you paste a regedit and the font is
larger or different, that's not what you usually see on the groups unless
you set it's size in html.

Even if you're posting in simple text, a hyperlink is going to show up and
doesn't that require html?

I have been fond of that accessory check box because it lets me Ctrl+Scroll
lists on web pages when they use small fonts--and these group posts unless
you click on one and give it it's own message box if you're going to reply
or use the up or down arrows on the message toolbar.

Once in a blue moon, you'll see a web page that overlaps its font a little
because of that--it happens with bink.nu's site but not to the extent I
can't read the article--sometimes you get frank superimposition--then I take
that check out.

Thanks,

Chad Harris

__________________________________________________________________

"David Candy" <da...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:O3RlCRre...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

I may have made the mistake in *that post*, Kelly, (which is why it took
that smaller font from your web page with the SR changes in SP1 and
preserved it), because I didn't turn off the html toolbar that I didn't ask
for during that post, but I can't post in html if like this post, Format's
menu has the radio button by *plain text*, and I'm not posting purposely in
html. The other day when you called me on it, that registry key's font was
preserved, and the same thing must have happened.

Chad Harris
__________________________________________________________________________________

"Kelly" <ke...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:%23dTrOKs...@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

[Kelly]

Chad,

Your spell checker seems to be misbehaving. :o) Other than that, you were
posting in html, until this post.

As for the latter: Whenever you copy and paste from a website - paste it
into Notepad first, then copy and paste again.

--
All the Best,
Kelly

Microsoft-MVP WindowsŽ XP

2004 Windows MVP "Winny" Award

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_tweaks.htm

Taskbar Repair Tool Plus!
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/taskbarplus!.htm

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:esJ08Yre...@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

[+-J]

Plato,

I have set my newsreader to display posts in TEXT-only mode.
I fail to see why people insist on posting in HTML or RTF, (or even write eMails in HTML).

Unfortunately, MS Outlook Express insists on displaying graphic files which are embedded in HTML posts!
(At least in MS Internet Explorer, displaying of graphic files can be disabled.)
---
Jan

[+-J]

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<SNIP />

|
| Even if you're posting in simple text, a hyperlink is going to show up and
| doesn't that require html?

<SNIP />

Chad,

In Outlook Express, in TEXT-mode, all hyperlinks are clickable.
---
Jan

[+-J]

"Kelly" <ke...@mvps.org> wrote:
| Chad,
|
| Your spell checker seems to be misbehaving. :o) Other than that, you were
| posting in html, until this post.
|
| As for the latter: Whenever you copy and paste from a website - paste it
| into Notepad first, then copy and paste again.

Kelly,

Excellent advice!

---
Jan

[Chad Harris]

Thanks Jan--

May have seemed obvious, but I thought by definition that a hyperlink is in
HTML and I'll have to clear this up for myself. I also thought in general
with OE and OL, that whatever format you used would only be viewed if the
recipient has format enough to view it--and I know RTF has a different
meaning in OL and OE.

This is a different question and technically one in OE but if you embed a
graphic into the text of OE won't the recipient have to have HTML activated
to view the picture. If they don't when they receive it and read directions
to activate it will they be able to see the picture?

Thanks,

Chad Harris
___________________________

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:ud1KYuxe...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

[David Candy]

If you attached a picture to a post OE display the picture after it displays the post. It's not emmbedded. If you insert a picture then yes. But html posts get sent as html AND plain text. Jan and Plato are stark raving mad. They can chose to view the plain text in SP1 or later by ticking a box in options.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
'Not happy John! Defending our democracy',
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/29/1088392635123.html

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:%23Mw899x...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

[Kelly]

Thanks and welcome back. :o)

--
All the Best,
Kelly

Microsoft-MVP Windows® XP

2004 Windows MVP "Winny" Award

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_tweaks.htm

Taskbar Repair Tool Plus!
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/taskbarplus!.htm

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:u4LVCxx...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

[+-J]

David,

You wrote:
| If you attached a picture to a post OE display the picture after it displays the post. It's not emmbedded. If you insert a picture
then yes. But html posts get sent as html AND plain text.

I replied to Plato:

> I have set my newsreader to display posts in TEXT-only mode.
> I fail to see why people insist on posting in HTML or RTF, (or even write eMails in HTML).
> Unfortunately, MS Outlook Express insists on displaying graphic files which are embedded in HTML posts!
> (At least in MS Internet Explorer, displaying of graphic files can be disabled.)

| Jan and Plato are stark raving mad. They can chose to view the plain text in SP1 or later by ticking a box in options.

I *do* use OE 6 SP1 set to TEXT-only mode.
How do I stop OE from displaying *any* images at all?

In this newsgroup, I have *never* seen a need for a post to be in anything other than TEXT-only format.
(The CDO presents posts in TEXT-only mode so all HTML and RTF "markup" is lost. Also, there are no attachments.)
---
Jan

[+-J]

Chad,

| Thanks Jan--
|
| May have seemed obvious, but I thought by definition that a hyperlink is in
| HTML and I'll have to clear this up for myself.

For HTML in a web browser, yes.

| I also thought in general
| with OE and OL, that whatever format you used would only be viewed if the
| recipient has format enough to view it--and I know RTF has a different
| meaning in OL and OE.
|
| This is a different question and technically one in OE but if you embed a
| graphic into the text of OE won't the recipient have to have HTML activated
| to view the picture. If they don't when they receive it and read directions
| to activate it will they be able to see the picture?

For MS Outlook (Express|) - not the same behaviour.

I use MS Outlook Express (in "minimal" mode) only as a news-reader.

I would never use it for eMails.

I observe how it behaves, but I have no interest in its inner workings.
(However, David does know.)
---
Jan

[David Candy]

Tools - Options - Read - Read All Messages In Plain Text

I've never ticked it. Last thing I want. I often post technical reference daya that only makes sense if it retains it's formatting, mainly tables.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
'Not happy John! Defending our democracy',
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/29/1088392635123.html

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:%230xzUzy...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

[David Candy]

 

To move around the desktop toolbars, Taskbar, Notification Area and the Desktop - press Ctrl + Escape (or the Winkey) to activate Start, Escape to cancel the menu, then Tab and Shift + Tab to the various parts of the screen. Use the arrow keys to move within a section. Winkey + B jumps straight to the System Notification Area.

Key	Description
Delete key or Delete on the shortcut menu	Deletes the file
Shift + Delete key or Shift + Delete on the shortcut menu	Deletes the file and doesn't place it in the Reycle Bin
Dbl Click a drive shortcut, Rycycle Bin, Start Menu, or My Computer	Opens an folder view of the double clicked item
Shift + Dbl Click a drive shortcut, Rycycle Bin, Start Menu, or My Computer	Open an explorer view with the double clicked item selected
Shift + Close Button	Closes the current folder and all parent folders
Shift + Drag	Move a file (default when dragging on the same drive)
Shift + Right Click	Opens the object's context menu with hidden verbs shown, if any
Shift + Send To menu	Moves a file (default when sending on the same drive)
Shift + Insert a CD	Prevents the CD from auto running
Shift + Starting Windows	Doesn't run the programs in the startup folder
Shift + No in a file confirmation dialog	Means No To All (XP)
Shift + View menu - Thumbnails	Hides the label for the thumbnails. Repeat to Show (XP)
Ctrl + Dbl Click an object (such as a document file)	Opens in the object behind other windows. Doesn't work on all objects
Ctrl + Close button	Sets the system default settings, mainly sort order. Icon style is not affected
Ctrl + Close button in Picture & Fax Viewer	Resets "Don't Show ... Again" dialog settings
Ctrl + Drag	Copies a file (default for dragging between drives)
Ctrl + Send To menu	Copies the file (default when sending between drives)
Ctrl + Send To menu Powertoys (except Send Contents to Clipboard)	Sends the short name to the clipboard or run dialog
Ctrl + Send To menu Send Contents to Clipboard Powertoy	Opens a dialog box to specify the data format
Ctrl + Shift + Drag (also Alt + Drag)	Creates a Shortcut rather than moving or copying a file (default when dragging only program files in 95, default for dragging files called setup.exe and install.exe later versions)
Ctrl + Shift + Send To menu	Creates a Shortcut rather than moving or copying a file
Ctrl + Plus Key in Explorer	Auto sizes all columns
Ctrl + Alt + Delete	Starts the Close Program dialog box (Windows 9x), Security dialog (NT, 2000, XP if Welcome Screen disabled), and Task Manager (XP with Welcome Screen enabled)
Ctrl + Shift + Escape	Starts the Close Program dialog box (Windows 9x) or Task Manager (NT, 2000, XP)
Ctrl + Alt + Shift and Close or Cancel in the Shutdown dialog	Closes down Window's shell. Use Task Manager's File - Run dialog to start Explorer to restart the shell.
Ctrl + Click a Taskbar Button	Select multiple Windows to tile or cascade (by right clicking the taskbar)
Alt + Space	Opens the System menu
Alt + Hyphen	Opens the Document menu in MDI applications
Alt + Enter or Alt + Dbl Click	Open the Property dialog
Alt + Left Arrow	Moves forward through the history list
Alt + Right Arrow	Moves backwards through the history list
Alt + Tab	Cycles through open windows, and switches to the window when the Alt key is released
Alt + Shift + Tab	Cycles backwards through open windows, and switches to the window when the Alt key is released
Alt + Esc	Switches to the next open window
Alt + Shift + Esc	Switches to the previous open window
Alt + Home	Home Page
Left Arrow	Collapse the current selection if it is expanded or Select the parent folder
Right Arrow	Expand the current selection if it is collapsed or Select the first subfolder
Num Lock On + Minus Sign (-)	Collapse the selected folder
Num Lock On + *	Expand all folders below the current selection
Num Lock On + Plus Sign (+)	Expand the selected folder
Home	Top of File List
End	Bottom of File List
[Characters] tyed without a pause	Goto the object that starts with the characters that were typed
[Single Character] after a pause	Goto the next object starting with that character
Backspace	Go to the parent folder
Right Click the System Menu or the Folder Icon in Web View	Pops up the context menu for the container
Drag an object onto a Windows Titlebar	Opens that object in that window (dragging into the window will often work, but in OLE documents this will insert the object into the current document)
Drag an object over, then hover over a collapsed folder in Explorer's tree view	Expands the folder display
Drag an object over, then hover over, a taskbar button	Brings the Window attached to the Taskbar button to the top
Drag an object over, then hover over, a blank part of the taskbar	Minimises all open windows

Function Keys

Key	Description
F1	Starts Windows Help
F2	Renames the selected file
F3	Starts Find Files or Folders
F4	Opens the drop down address bar
Alt + F4	Closes the current window in Explorer, exits an application, or if the shell has the focus (ie Start Menu or the Desktop), exits Windows
F5	Refreshes the view in Explorer, Desktop, or Start Menu
F6 or Tab	Switch between left and right panes
F10	Menu access key (same to pressing Alt by itself)
Shift + F10 or the Application key	Context menu access key
Shift + Ctrl + F10 or Shift + Right Click	Add Open With.. to Right Click Menu
F11	Toggles full screen view

Control Keys

Key	Description
Ctrl + A	Selects all files
Ctrl + B	Organise Favourites (in an Explorer window)
Ctrl + C	Copies a file
Ctrl + D	If a file isn't selected adds the current folder to Favourites
Ctrl + E or Ctrl + F	Opens the Search pane in Explorer
Ctrl + G	Goto (older versions only)
Ctrl + H	Opens the History pane in Explorer
Ctrl + H	Opens the Favourites pane in Explorer
Ctrl + P	Prints the Web View template part of the view if the Web View has the focus (this isn't a useful feature)
Ctrl + R	Refreshes the view
Ctrl + V	Pastes a file
Ctrl + W	Closes an Explorer window
Ctrl + X	Cuts a file
Ctrl + Z	Undoes the last operation (if possible)

The Winkey

The Winkey works even if Explorer or the Shell doesn't have the focus.

Key	Description
Winkey or Ctrl + Esc	Opens the Start Menu
Winkey + B	Set focus to the first icon in the System Notification Area.
Winkey + D	Minimises and hides windows that can't be minimised or Unminimises/unhides all windows
Winkey + E	Starts Explorer
Winkey + F	Starts Find Files or Folders
Winkey + Ctrl + F	Starts Find Computer
Winkey + M	Minimises all windows that can be minimised
Winkey + Shift + M	Unminimises all windows
Winkey + R	Starts the Run Dialog
Winkey + F1	Starts Windows Help (F1 start help for the current application, if the focus is in Explorer or the desktop F1 also starts Windows Help)
Winkey + Tab	Cycles through open windows with out bringing the Window to the top (press Enter)
Winkey + Break	Starts System Properties

Windows 2000/XP Only

Key	Description
Winkey + L	Lock Workstation or Switch User (if Welcome Screen is on)
Winkey + U	Accessability Utility Manager

Selecting

Key	Description
Click an object	Selects the object, cancelling any other selection.
Control + Click, or Control + Space	Selects or unselects the object without cancelling any other selection.
Arrow Keys	Moves the focus and selects the object.
Control + Arrow Keys	Moves the focus without selecting the objects.
Shift + Arrow Keys	Moves the focus and adds the object to the selected objects.
Click then Shift + Click	Selects all objects between the two clicks.
Drag	Drag a rectangle to select all objects within the rectangle.

Auto Complete

Key	Description
Alt + Down Arrows (or double click)	Opens the drop down list
Down Arrow	Cycles from most recent to least recent Auto Complete suggestions. Will match suggestions that start with the characters to the left of the cursor. Only letters are able to be used for partial matches.
Up Arrow	Cycles from least recent to most recent Auto Complete suggestions. Will match suggestions that start with the characters to the left of the cursor. Only letters are able to be used for partial matches. If no letters are entered then the Up Arrow is only valid after the Down Arrow has been used.
Right Arrow	Goes to the end of the suggestion. Type or press up or down arrow to cycle through suggestions which begin with the characters to the left of the cursor.
Ctrl + Left or Right Arrow	Moves cursor a word at a time, slashes and dots are considered word separators.
Ctrl + Enter	Adds http://www. before the typed word and .com after it in the address bar.
Delete	Deletes the highlighted suggestion for forms and passwords only.

Message Boxes and Error Dialogs

Key	Description
Ctrl + C	Copies the text of a message box to the clipboard.
Alt + D	Shows details in an error dialog.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
'Not happy John! Defending our democracy',
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/29/1088392635123.html

"David Candy" <da...@mvps.org> wrote in message news:O%23JTeb0...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

[+-J]

"David Candy" <da...@mvps.org> wrote:

| Tools - Options - Read - Read All Messages In Plain Text
| I've never ticked it.

Mine has always been, and still is, ticked - I see all text as plain - which is what I want.
However, this setting does *not* stop OE from displaying *inserted* images.

MS Internet Explorer gives the user the choice of displaying images (or not).
Unfortunately for me, MS Outlook Express does not seem to have that option.

| Last thing I want. I often post technical reference data that only makes sense if it retains its formatting, mainly tables.

Noted.
---
Jan

[Chad Harris]

David--

 

Thanks for the key combo list.  I'm glad to get resources like this from you anytime.  Appreciate it.

 

Chad Harris

 

_________________

"David Candy" <da...@mvps.org> wrote in message news:e$STJj0eE...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

Kelly--

I have noticed since this came up that sometimes the HTML bar kicks in when
I get ready to reply and I don't know why. This is after several posts in
plain text where plain text has been selected.
If I see it, I switch to plain text, and if I was chain posting in html it
wasn't meant to happen.

The spell checker is not on the blink. I don't use one, so I have to watch
the typos. I can spell somewhat, and I dictionary the words I need help
spelling. I like it in Wordmail in OL, but here in OE news, it just drives
me crazy because (although I understand it's supposed to have a learning
curve) it stops on many words and software terms that aren't misspelled.
So I'll try to do a better job proofreading.

I don't understand why you suggest that if you copy and paste from a website
(I'm sure you mean the url here), *you should to do it in notepad first.*
If, and I don't understand the why of this exactly, as Jan said, in OE, in
text mode all hyperlinks are clickable, so you can paste hyperlinks in a
plain text message and they are clickable, what do you gain by opening
notepad and pasting them in there first?

Thanks,

Chad Harris
____________________________________________________________________________
__

"Kelly" <ke...@mvps.org> wrote in message

news:OWIklSse...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

> Chad,
>
> Your spell checker seems to be misbehaving. :o) Other than that, you
were
> posting in html, until this post.
>
> As for the latter: Whenever you copy and paste from a website - paste it
> into Notepad first, then copy and paste again.
>
> --
> All the Best,
> Kelly
>

> Microsoft-MVP Windows® XP

[Kelly]

Chad,

Not to be rude, but this is getting old. Other than that, whatever html bar
you are seeing and speaking of, is not native nor related to XP (thus also
meaning OE). And no, I didn't mean the URL, I meant the body. Notepad is a
simple text editor program that comes with all versions of Windows.

--
All the Best,
Kelly

Microsoft-MVP Windows® XP
2004 Windows MVP "Winny" Award

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:uG8HRkEf...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

["James M. Callahan]

I think he means the toolbar that appears when you are composing a
message in OE and you select "Rich Text (HTML)" in the "Format"
menu.

J.M.C.

Kelly <ke...@mvps.org> wrote in message

news:u8#EG#FfEHA...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.734 / Virus Database: 488 - Release Date: 8/4/04

[Incognitus]

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:uG8HRkEf...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

> Kelly--
>
> I have noticed since this came up that sometimes the HTML bar kicks in
when
> I get ready to reply and I don't know why.

Tools | Options | Send and uncheck 'Reply to messages using the format in
which they were sent'

<snip>

[Chad Harris]

It is getting old Kelly The html bar I'm seeing as explicitly and expressly
as I can convey it is native to OE (and as you say a component of IE/XP) and
it shows up if I click Format>Rich text>html. *It's not part of any 3rd
party app.* It's native to OE meaning IE meaning XP. My question was not
*what notepad is or where I can find it*--it was introduced in Windows 95
(and there are many free apps that are notepad on steroids like Notepad
XP)--actually two different 3rd parties have that name--

http://www.acsoftware.org/

that have 10 X the features of Notepad, but I didn't see the point of
having to test paste a link into notepad if a plain link will show up as in
this message formatted in plain text--it just seemed like a wasted step.
But you always say things for a good reason, so I asked why and I'm still
asking why?

For whatever reason, once in a while when I open a new message or reply
message it shows up and if it does I click format and change back to plain
text and it's gone.

The ratio of times I posted in html versus plain text have been less than
.05% of posts. And I still don't understand what the **huge deal is about
posting in html*** partly for the reasons David Candy gave above, and
because bold text or underlining makes it easier than a lousy asterick to
emphasize a phrase and allow it to stand out. Italics have their place for
the same reason you see them every where else. Are there really that many
on dial up who are *that compromised by an ocassional italic or bold word?*
I wasn't talking about posting images or attachements, although there should
be a mechanism for that to happen too.

On one of the Office groups, because there have been an epidemic of problems
installing Office 2003 SP1 requiring the Resource Kit tools and
interpretation of Hotfix_MSI logs, MSFT has encouraged posting attachments
of the logs. It's the same kind of binary group as this one on the NTTP
newsreader.

Best,

Chad Harris

____________________________________________________________________________
__

"Kelly" <ke...@mvps.org> wrote in message

news:u8%23EG%23FfEH...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

I fail to see why people go nuts when you post in html if it's for a good
reason. I think html makes it a lot easier to read if you use italics,
underline or bold correctly. Does it create that much of a bandwidth
problem? It's not a large image. My posts in html weren't intentional on
this group although I have done it when I thought it was appropriate. They
were a function of that checkmark on the Send tab. And I still noticed the
html toolbar which *is native to OE messages* in rich text format, but since
I wasn't doing anything but hyperlinking, I didn't think it would be html.
The post that started the html question that Plato said "gave his eyes a
workout"--(I'm not sure what that means because his eyes have all the tools
to handle that and more anatomically and physiologically) but it came simply
from a font used on Kelly's web page when I pasted and I still cannot
understand why it is such a prodigious deal.

Even with the checkmark out of the box on that send tab, this message opened
up to post in html and I changed it to plain text.

So I'm still left with:

1) Why is posting in html a huge deal? I can site two ocassions on these
groups when MSFT OK'd posting up an attachment and posting in html (one
wasn't a public group) and one was a word group for the purpose of being
able to review verbose logs.

What's the problem for people if you use italics or a bold or underlined
word? I can understand Plato found that paste from Kelly's site small,
and it gave his eyes a "workout"--that I call normal physiology.
Particularly given David Candy's comments above (this being a binary group).
I thought that rich text was conceived for the same good reason that there
are multiple fonts.

2) What was Kelly's point about testing in note pad first. Testing what?
For why? A hyperlink in note pad for what reason?

Best,

Chad Harris
_________________________________________________________

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:eyeXOcxe...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

[David Candy]

> "--(I'm not sure what that means because his eyes have all the tools
> to handle that and more anatomically and physiologically)

How old are you? Under 40 I bet.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
'Not happy John! Defending our democracy',
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/29/1088392635123.html

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:uUUFaRIf...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

[Ken Blake]

In news:uUUFaRIf...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl,
Chad Harris <ddram32...@yahoo.com> typed:

> I fail to see why people go nuts when you post in html if it's
for a
> good reason. I think html makes it a lot easier to read if you
use
> italics, underline or bold correctly. Does it create that much
of a
> bandwidth problem?

"Going nuts' is perhaps too strong a reaction, but be aware that
there are several significant problems with html:

1. Html messages can carry viruses.

2. Html messages are bigger than text messages, often very much
bigger. That may not be a problem for you if, for example, you're
in the USA and have a fast connection. But realize that many
people use dial-up, either because that's all that's available to
them where they are, or because they can't afford anything
faster. Also in many other parts of the world, people pay for
their internet usage by the minute, and anything that increases
the size of messages is a great imposition to them.

3. Everyone's idea of what constitutes an attractive or improved
html message is different. You may think your html messages are
beautiful, but someone else might find them unreadable. I once
had a correspondent who would send me E-mail messages with red
text on a black background. I could barely make them out.

He finally stopped and switched to text when I threatened to
killfile him if he didn't. ;-)

--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup

[Chad Harris]

Ken--

I appreciate the additional information. I wasn't as alert to HTML carrying
viruses. I understand the bandwidth situation, and that in the US there are
many pockets in many states where there isn't always a broadband option
available--and unfortunately when there is there is not yet a choice of
multiple broadband carriers which means price points are way to high and
mickey mouse excuses are given as to why Cable providers can't provide
ala-cart services so you aren't stuffed with 50 TV stations for 50 bucks a
month that you'd never watch in order to get HBO of something else you want.

Even when I take the check out of the send tab to reply to messages in
format sent, I still get the OE html formatting bar (which is what MSFT
officially calls it and I was trying to convey to Kelly is a native part of
MSFT OE/IE/XP. I have a couple chapters on OE in the last IE book MSFT
Press put out and they talk about the options of the Plain Text Settings
dialogue box but they don't really explain how to use the options or what
they mean (not the first and last time for that)--Encode text using--Allow 8
bit messages for headers--Indentation Character--Automatic Text Wrapping
other than to say it should be a few characters less than 80.

"Go nuts" is too strong a word but people are going to jump up and down if
you use HTML that much I'm certain. Even with the checks in the proper
place on the send tab this reply box defaulted to HTML or rich text, but it
is easy enough to change it.

Best,

Chad Harris

"Ken Blake" <kbl...@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
news:uFwrH8Kf...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

[Ken Blake]

In news:%23%23c5ajLf...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
Chad Harris <ddram32...@yahoo.com> typed:

> Ken--
>
> I appreciate the additional information.

You're welcome, Chad. Glad to help.

> Even when I take the check out of the send tab to reply to
messages in
> format sent, I still get the OE html formatting bar (which is
what
> MSFT officially calls it and I was trying to convey to Kelly is
a
> native part of MSFT OE/IE/XP. I have a couple chapters on OE
in the
> last IE book MSFT Press put out and they talk about the options
of
> the Plain Text Settings dialogue box but they don't really
explain
> how to use the options or what they mean (not the first and
last time
> for that)--Encode text using--Allow 8 bit messages for
> headers--Indentation Character--Automatic Text Wrapping other
than to
> say it should be a few characters less than 80.

Yes, in my view, it's unfortunate that Microsoft makes html the
default, and doesn't make it easy to turn it off either. I use
Microsoft products for both E-mail (Outlook) and newsgroups
(Outlook Express) and have it turned off in both. But not
everybody even realizes that turning it off is an option, and
even if they do, they can't necessarily figure out how to do it.

> "Go nuts" is too strong a word but people are going to jump up
and
> down if you use HTML that much I'm certain. Even with the
checks in
> the proper place on the send tab this reply box defaulted to
HTML or
> rich text, but it is easy enough to change it.

"Some people" will do that. I'm against using html too, but I
don't normally react that strongly to its being used. Especially
since I'm on a fast connection, and have "Read all messages in
plain text" checked in Outlook Express.

By the way, one other point against html that I should have
mentioned, but forgot to. Some people use newsreaders that
doesn't render html and they see the encoded text instead.
Reading that stuff is a real pain.

[+-J]

Incognitus,

This setting will *not* strip HTML markup from "pasted HTML".
However, pasting HTML into Notepad first *will* strip the HTML markup.
Then copy the resulting TEXT from Notepad into OE.
---
Jan

"Incognitus" <i...@ccurate.com.invalid> wrote:

[+-J]

Ken,

Well said!

Double irony when visiting these newsgroups whilst using the web interface (CDO):

1. Markup - all HTML/RTF is stripped, so all visual embellishments are lost anyway.

2. Bandwidth - *ten* (10) copies of each post-message are sent to the user's web browser, viz.:-

1 * actual message
1 * // commented-out message
4 * [Reply] messages - one for MSIE 6, one for MSIE 5.5, one for MSIE 5.0 and one for 'other'
4 * [Forward] messages - as above

-and- in each of those 10 copies, almost every non-alphanumeric character is "%-escaped" - each ASCII byte becomes three bytes, and
each UNICODE byte-pair becomes at least five bytes

-and- not to forget all the bloated HTML of the website itself!
---
Jan

[+-J]

Chad,

| I fail to see why people go nuts

NOBODY went nuts, hence this reading of The Riot Act.

| when you post in html if it's for a good reason.

YOU have NO good reason to post in HTML.

| I think html makes it a lot easier to read if you use italics, underline or bold correctly.

But you changed the FONT-SIZE for plato, and many others.

| Does it create that much of a bandwidth problem?

YES

| It's not a large image.

You did not measure anything.

| My posts in html weren't intentional on this group although I have done it when I thought it was appropriate.

In Outlook Express, use *both* of the following settings to prevent the parent's HTML from propagating.

Tools | Options |
[Y] "Read all messages in plain text"

Tools | Options | Send |
[_] 'Reply to messages using the format in which they were sent'

| They were a function of that checkmark on the Send tab.

Which option? There many options on /Send\

| And I still noticed the html toolbar which *is native to OE messages* in rich text format, but since I wasn't doing anything but
hyperlinking, I didn't think it would be html.

In OE, hyperlinks are clickable in TEXT messages.

| The post that started the html question that Plato said "gave his eyes a workout"

Plato explained the problem which YOU caused.

|--(I'm not sure what that means ...

This is ONE of YOUR problems.

| because his eyes have all the tools to handle that and more anatomically and physiologically)

How can YOU possibly know about Plato's eyes?
And why are YOU telling HIM what HE should do about the problem which YOU caused?

| but it came simply from a font used on Kelly's web page when I pasted and I still cannot understand why it is such a prodigious
deal.

Plato explained the problem which YOU caused.

>> Since your going to post in html with a mini font, pick one that is even smaller to give my eyes an even better workout.

| Even with the checkmark out of the box on that send tab, this message opened up to post in html and I changed it to plain text.

... Which has been explained by Kelly.

To be continued...
---
Jan

[Chad Harris]

 

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:eliz%23YOfE...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

+J--

 

Reading what I posted might help and I'm for ending this and getting onto some XP problems. But I'll be  happy to repeat some of what you didn't read and understand first go 'round:

 

"YOU have NO good reason to post in HTML*" We have some fortune tellers in our town that would view you as competition.  I disagree.  I have some excellent reasons to post in HTML--it would look ten times better.   That's why books, the print media, TV computer graphics, and nearly anything visual that you ever read deploys it.

You have a full time job getting insight into your own motivation.  There are a number of people who have done it with good reason, and there are groups directly supervised by MSFT right now that permit it if the poster feels they have a reason, and the MSFT supervisors have said directly that they will post in HTML or put up an attachment if they feel *they* have a reason. 

"But you changed the FONT-SIZE for plato, and many others."  Nope,  As I've said for the third time, now, I didn't change the font size although you changed it above.  Kelly or someone else on her site chose the font size and I pasted it and didn't realize I posted in html and didn't even intend to and it preserved that font size from the SR article from Kellly.

I didn't change the font size at all in that Post--as I explained twice, it came from a Web Page on Kelly's XP website--the article on System Restore. 

Highlights of System Restore Fixes in SP1 (Kelly's XP)

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_restore.htm

"Since your going to post in html with a mini font, pick one that is even smaller to give my eyes an even better workout."

For the tenth time, *I* didn't pick the font, Kelly or someone else did.  So what happens when you go to Kelly's page--do you jump up and down resenting that font is there? How 'bout Plato?  Have you asked Kelly to change that font or pick one even smaller to give your eyes a workout or like a big boy figure a way to scroll and make it comfortable viewing because it's far and away one of the best sites or collections of information anyone has worked hard to compile and meticulously update.

 I pasted directly from this page.  Scroll to the bottom where Kelly included MSFT's SR Team member's writeup as to changes in Windows XP SP1--a change I haven't seen conveyed anywhere that is significant and seldom mentioned in posts on System Restore and why it works or doesn't.  I'm taking from this that Kelly has a piece of information on her site that most people need to know.  When I pasted, I didn't even know HTML was on.

As I've said more than once on this thread, I have the appropriate check marks "Reply to messages in their format" has the check out and "News Sending Format" has a radio button in "Send in Plain text." I mastered the art of the difficult navigation Tools>Options>Send tab and it doesn't matter--the "HTML Formatting  Part of MSFT OE/IE/XP bar" still comes up.  It's up now, and it will be up until I turn it off--which I've managed to do since it caused concern.

"You did not measure anything."  You're clueless as to what I measured.

I was explicit and clear on its face about precisely what on the Send tab is appropriate to deploy Plaint Text and I really appreciate your pointing out that there are a few other options on the Send tab--the rest of us could never count them and going to those tabs is such a highly complex manuever. 

But there's something you don't appreciate.  OE is the freebie from MSFT.  There has been a culture at Redmond that it doesn't get that developed and it doesn't get updated often or in much depth.  One of the product managers a few months ago announed it was being discontinued in fact, but then there was a quick retraction and  references that it might have more functionality in Longhorn.

OE doesn't do a lot of things well.  It's not going to.  There are a number of aspects of downloading messages from NGs that have been dissected by a number of people on the OE groups that aren't consistent and don't work well.  Tom Koch's site points out a number of problems.  MSFT encourages people to compact while they are on line and using their PC, and every last OE MVP has singled compacting out as one of the chief causes for a corrupt inbox and other components of OE that break.

As to ways to handle a problem that causes a workout for your eyes, both David Candy and I did a complete job of telling you how you can adjust any text size in a second that you see on the group.  I'm doing what I can do for Plato's eyes.  I'm posting in plain text.  But Plato is going to have to use some of the buffers for getting comfortable that both David Candy and I pointed out exist because I can't troubleshoot every web page that he encounters, and when he does encounter small print, my Accessibility check mark can go along way toward helping.   The display properties dialogue box can change the fonts on menus and I recommend it for anyone who wants bigger print.

"which has been explained by Kelly"--No it hasn't.  Not even close.  The HTMLFormatting toolbar as MSFT Press's latest book on IE/OE calls it *is part of OE/IE/XP--it is not third party.*  And I read Kelly's 4 posts several times.   Given that I have the two appropriate places configured on the Send tab for plain text, there is no explanation as to why I have to reset to Plain text, but I'm happy to do it.

Chad

___________________________________________________________________________

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:eliz%23YOfE...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

I can make the decision as to whether I have good reason to post in HTML. On
groups with close supervision by MSFT, MSFT personnel have given a strong
argument why HTML may enhance a post as well as attachments in fact, and
that post exists now.

It's common sense--the same reason the print media, web page design, and TV
graphics use italics and bold--it's easier to read and more attractive than
plain text. That's why it's called plain. What do you and Plato do about
all the Web pages that are formatted various ways? Read your ridiculous
riot act to them?

For the third time (you didn't pay any attention to previous posts--go back
and read them--the small font came from a system restore article on Kelly's
site and I linked it. See for yourself. As I've said two previous times, I
pasted from Kelly's web page and I didn't know HTML was on.

I was explicit as to the two places on the Send tab I configured for Plain
Text. Go back and read the posts this time.

"In Outlook Express, use *both* of the following settings to prevent the
parent's HTML from propagating"

I have been doing that well before you suggested it. Some quick context on
OE for you. It's Redmond's freebie. Their culture doesn't spend a lot of
time on it. This is also reflected in MSFT's failure to warn people the
harm they can cause from compacting while on line and that this is one of
the most common causes for OE broken or the complaints "I can't open OE" on
newsgroups. The OE MVPs point this out over and over again on the OE
newsgroups.

MSFT doesn't update OE much and they are content for it to have minimal
functionality. The newsgroup downloading menus and options are a mess and
don't work consistently and this ihas been shown repeatedly on the OE
newsgroups.

Many use it only for it's NNTP newsreader, and some use much better
newsreaders. Those people usually use Outlook because it does some things OE
should be doing but doesn't and yes I get that Outlook has richer
functionality because it's part of Redmond's primo cash cow Office.

You don't have a clue what I measure and don't.

"Which option? There many options on /Send\"

Again, go back and reread the posts. I was specific and explicit on its
face as to which of the two send options I had configured for Plain Text.

David Candy and I both explained a number of convenient options for Plato to
take if print is too small for his eyes whatever the reason. When David
mentioned over 40, I suppose the most common cause would be ciliary muscle
tone loss and presbyopia. And there are lots of ways to counter that in a
Windows OS and we named every one of them. Good ones reside at
Accessibility and Display Properties dialogue box. You can rheostat the
fonts on these newsgroup posts with the Accessibility suggestion I made, and
you can configure on the Display Properties dialogue box to control the
fonts on menus, even the listings for these newsgroups, name bar fonts,
toolbar fonts, task bar fonts, task bar buttons, and Start Menu fonts.

"Since your going to post in html with a mini font..." This would be on
point to Kelly's suggestion about a spell checker.

"Which has been explained by Kelly."

No it wasn't explained at all by Kelly. Kelly didn't touch it in any of her
four posts. Kelly referred to the "HTML Formatting toolbar in OE/IE/XP" as
"3rd party" or to quote her exactly "not native or related to XP(thus also
meaning OE" Since I know she knows exactly what it is she must have thought
we were referring to something else. That's the name that MSFT Press's
Latest *Running IE* book gives it--and it is absolutely a "native" part of
OE/IE/XP.

Chad Harris
______________________________________________________________________________

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:eliz%23YOfE...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

[Kelly]

Chad,

I didn't mean to get you upset. IF your settings were as you claim a week
or so ago, this would not be happening, thus my thinking it was third party.
IF and when you see the html bar appear, it means that you will be posting
to the like, thus your settings aren't as you claimed.

As for attachments, that is different than posting html. Attachments can be
included via plain text and are on rare occasions here.

--
All the Best,
Kelly

Microsoft-MVP Windows® XP
2004 Windows MVP "Winny" Award

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:OoL1pDIf...@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

Kelly--

I wasn't that upset, or trying to make a big deal out of this, just a
little miffed when Jan kept pushing the "lack of consideration by intent
element." I'm pretty familiar with the options tabs, although I can't
recite from rote what's on them, but after the first couple messages I
double checked to see if there was any stone I was leaving unturned, and
why in the world the html formatting bar or whatever you want to call it was
showing up. I made sure that I had the two places that address plain text
configured for it on the send tab, and went over the "plain text dialogue
box" whose options I don't claim to understand perfectly even after seeing
them contexted in the IE box--but to make sure that they wouldn't
contribute. So what I do if I see the bar is just to go to format and
select Plain Text and it goes away.

Another thing that contributed to making html posts was when the html bar
was down for whatever reason, I thought that if I wasn't going to do
anything but paste a hyperlink, (i.e. not underline or italicize or bold
type any words), then even if it had been set on html there would be
*nothing to show up as html*. Obviously, this isn't the case. I understand
from David that Ctrl+3 can give you that information and some additional
informaiton, but what puzzles me is *what would show as html or cause the
bandwidth problems if you didn't have an off-sized font and you didn't do
anything else.

Also I know you hae a reason for everything you say, and I was trying to
figure out what I didn't appreciate about the step of pasting into notepad.
If I'm missing something there, and you can also clarify what shows up as
html if the only thing you do is paste a hyperlink, I'd appreciate it.

Chad

_______________________________________________________________________________

"Kelly" <ke...@mvps.org> wrote in message

news:%23iDNpNR...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

[Incognitus]

Where did I suggest that this setting would strip pasted HTML, where did I
even comment on copy, pasting or even Notepad for that matter?

I intentionally snipped everything except the part I replied to, which was:

"I have noticed since this came up that sometimes the HTML bar kicks in when
I get ready to reply and I don't know why."

Which will happen when the setting I mentioned is checked and you're
replying to a HTML message.

BTW, those "*" in your reply, are they head jerks? =)

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:uYYCdDNf...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

[David Candy]

Cause it will strip pasted html. One would need to change the format to html to keep the pasted html.
The strip happens when the mail is sent.

--
----------------------------------------------------------
'Not happy John! Defending our democracy',
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/06/29/1088392635123.html

"Incognitus" <i...@ccurate.com.invalid> wrote in message news:%23y3v5nU...@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

[Incognitus]

Thanks David, I wasn't arguing whether are not the setting would or wouldn't
strip pasted html, but rather to the fact that I didn't say it would, even
if it does.

"David Candy" <da...@mvps.org> wrote in message

news:%23UtcKuU...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

[+-J]

What?

Well, Chad is it?

[+-J]

Chad,

- - The story so far - -

Kelly to Chad:
> ... html?
-later-
> ... you were posting in html, until this post.

Jan to Plato:
> I fail to see why people insist on posting in HTML (or even write eMails in HTML).

Chad to Kelly:

> I still don't understand what the **huge deal is about posting in html***

Chad to Ken Blake:
> I fail to see why people go nuts when you post in html...
-later-

> "Go nuts" is too strong a word but people are going to jump up and down if you use HTML that much I'm certain.

Neither Kelly nor I "made a huge deal", "went nuts" or "jumped up and down" about posting in HTML.

Also, in my part of the world, the expression "Go nuts" actually seems to consist of two (2) words, not one.

- - the story continues - -

Chad wrote:
| 1) Why is posting in html a huge deal?

--1. Bandwidth - As has been explained over the years in these newsgroups by Ken Blake (see adjacent excellent reply by him) and
several other people well versed in HTML.

To see the overhead of HTML markup in your post:

1. Message | New Mesage |
2. Format | Rich Text (HTML) | [Edit]
3. Click in the text area, and type a word.
4. [Source]
5. Look at all the pretty colours. This the overhead for HTML.
6. [Edit]
7, Click the [B] button
8. Type another word in the text area.
9. [Source]
10. Look at the result.
11. [Edit]
12. Now view Kelly's webpage again.
13. Copy that snippet of text.
14. Paste that snippet of text.
15. [Source]
16. Look at all the pretty colours. See the overhead for that snippet of text.

--2. "Eye candy" (or for non-Americans, visual pollution) is enjoyed about as much as spam is.

You seem to be obsessed with using StyleXP and other unapproved third-party applications on steroids which trash your XP SP 2.

Start with a clean slate - stop using StyleXP.

This is *not* a forum for publishing academic dissertations.

Nobody likes YOUR choice of font-(family|size|style) or (fore|back)ground-colours.

| I can site (sic)

Consult the "Concise Oxford Dictionary" for the meanings of the following homonyms...
CITE, SIGHT and SITE

[+-J]

Chad,

| two ocassions on these groups when MSFT OK'd posting up an attachment and posting in html (one wasn't a public group) and one was
a word group for the purpose of being able to review verbose logs.

+
>Chad to Kelly:

> > On one of the Office groups, because there have been an epidemic of problems installing Office 2003 SP1 requiring the Resource
Kit tools and interpretation of Hotfix_MSI logs, MSFT has encouraged posting attachments of the logs.

You did not pay attention to their reasons for doing so.
Without even having seen those two announcements, I am confidently able to inform you that it is so in order that:-

- Executable text-formatted files such as .(S|J)HTM(L), .VBS, .JS and .REG (yes, remember those *.REG files?) may be *downloaded*
and safely examined in a TEXT Editor by those who wish to do so, and *not* be a bandwidth-burden on those who wish *not* to do so.

- Encoded files such as MS Office *.DOC and *.XLS, Adobe *.PDF, Multimedia such as *.JPEG and *.MPEG, *binary* executables such as
*.EXE may be attached rather than "inserted" into posts for bandwidth reasons.

- Same applies to those "VERBOSE logs" which are most likely plain-text (i.e. *not* HTML) files anyway.

As for "MSFT OK'd posting in html" - their websites are over-bloated, they foist "Smart Tags" on us, etc.
Exactly what did they about "posting in html"?

You are also now referring to the use of ATTACHMENTs.
This has *nothing* to do with posting in HTML, (which is what started this off-topic {but interesting, nonetheless} discussion.)
ATTACHMENTs are downloaded separately.

| What's the problem for people if you use italics or a bold or underlined word?

Nothing wrong, per se. It is *how* you do it.

USENET Etiqette:
*bold*, /italic/ and _underlined_
ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING!

| I can understand ...

Yet in the very same post you wrote...
||--(I'm not sure what that means ...

So, are you really, absolutely, positively sure at this point in time?

| Plato found that paste from Kelly's site small, and it gave his eyes a "workout"
|--that I call normal physiology.

Which is what Plato complained about...

Plato:

> Since your going to post in html with a mini font, pick one that is even smaller to give my eyes an even better workout.

So you replied...

Chad to Plato--

> This is another convenience, but I think one of your best bets is to use
> the Accessbility chek box so that you can rheostat anythng you see here.
> Use Kelly's Tweak Line 227 Left:
> Set IE Fonts to Smaller or Larger
> http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/regs_edits/iesmallertxt.reg
> http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_tweaks.htm

YOU you are passing the buck TO Plato!

Also, your use of the word "rheostat' here is inappropriate. Only a person with electrical knowledge would comprehend what you were
attempting to convey. However, the entire sentence reads as superior nonsense. I believe you really meant "INconvenience"

[+-J]

"Chad| Particularly given David Candy's comments above (this being a binary group).

*All* of these groups (graciously provided free of charge by Microsoft) are of type binary.
You *are* able to attach files, insert Multimedia files and post in HTML - the same as in eMails.
However, this does *not* mean that you *should* actually do any of these things, either willy-nilly or at all.

[ For the benefit of anyone still reading this mini-series via the web interface, the aforementioned options are not available to
you ]

David Candy posts in HTML only when appropriate, e.g. when posting a technical document which contains tables which might be
scrambled if posted in TEXT mode. David does *not* abuse the use of HTML.

If you drive a car which is capable of driving at twice the legal speed limit on a public road, would you drive at twice that
speed, just because you strongly believe that you are able to do so safely?

| I thought that rich text was conceived for the same good reason that there are multiple fonts.

Just like spammers think that the existence of the eMail system is a good reason for sending spam through it.

Just like script kiddies think that the existence of insecure websites is a good reason for hacking those sites.

Multiple fonts have evolved since the first visible document was produced.
The use of these was under the control of professional publishers until the introducton of "Desktop Publishing" and "Font Creation"
software on personal computers, and the uncontrolled publishing of "eye candy" on the Internet.

What are YOUR "good" reasons for rich text and multiple fonts?

I filter out the following from most of the websites that I visit:

- <STYLE>, <FONT> elements and attributes, <LINK>ed stylesheets and <META> charsets

- COLOR attributes

I view posts in OE in TEXT mode (no HTML markup)

| 2) What was Kelly's point about testing in note pad first.
| Testing what? For why? A hyperlink in note pad for what reason?

Kelly wrote:
> Whenever you copy and paste from a website
> - paste it into Notepad first,
> then copy and paste again.

Kelly wrote *nothing* about "testing".

Pasting HTML into a TEXT post converts that entire post into HTML.

However, pasting HTML into Notepad (or your favourite TEXT-editor or Word-Processor in TEXT-mode) first, will strip the HTML
markup. *Then* copy the resulting TEXT *from* Notepad and paste *into* OE.

PS: "There is *no* spoon!" [Matrix reloaded]

There is no "html bar".

Chad to Kelly:

> The html bar I'm seeing as explicitly and expressly as I can convey it is native to OE (and as you say a component of IE/XP) and
it shows up if I click Format>Rich text>html.

If you really had changed that setting as often as you claim to have done, you should have noticed that the menu-item which you
mention actually reads as "Rich Text (HTML)".

Also, that ficticious bar does *not* appear when replying to a HTML post, provided that...

Tools | Options | /Read\

[Y] "Read all messages in plain text"

Tools | Options | /Send\
[_] 'Reply to messages using the format in which they were sent'

One of your three random replies to "127.0.0.1 of The RIOT ACT" is in HTML.
Reread your parent post and then reread those three replies.
See if you can make any sense out of what you wrote.

You still insist on telling others what THEY should or should not do, yet YOU cannot be told anything, and you believe that YOU
have been misunderstood and/or wronged.

In your reply to Ms. Tick in the thread titled "Windows Media Player, Help needed!" you ended with...
> Some has done been more beta and some has done been less.

Is this university-speak?
Would you be so kind as to translate this into standard English?

Finally, are you a gifted child?
---
Jan

[Chad Harris]

I'm not sure what these refer to:

"What?

Well, Chad is it?"
---
Jan

but if you mean change in format strips the pasted html as David and
Incognitus just said, changing format causes stripping fer sure.

Chad
_________________________________________________________

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:OfO86VYf...@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

Jan--

 

"Let's just say...there's a time and place for HTML and that time for the HTML formatting toolbar is now, but all I see are clickable hyperlinks and that fictional bar.  I figured since you confirmed it's fictional, then I'm not really seein' it under  subject "The RIOT ACT."  But you didn't shout "the."  Thank heavins fer small favors."  I got that catchy phrase from the girl in the commercial for something I'm still trying to figure out--but it's on almost as much as them political candidates and all those swoosh sounds on Paula Zahn and CNN imported straight from the Columbia School of Journalism.  Let's just say she's happy because of a new brand of soft drink?  popcorn?  Is Levitra from Levitown,Long Island like Bill O'Reilly??

 

This should illustrate the judicious use of html.  I don't see anything that doesn't look the same as in plain text.  The hyperlinks are clickable in either.  Sometimes they look violet/magenta and other times they look blue.  Maybe you will tell me why they are one or the other.  Something to look forward to.

 

These here riot acts are multiplyin' like rabbits who watched that Levitra commerical--you know the one where the  nice girl starts with the  smug grin like she had a superlative meal  or one of them real sweet green apples, and says  "Let's just say..."  She say's "Let's just say.." so many times I just can't figure out what she's hintin' about.  TV keepin' secrets from me all mah life.   Euphimism is bliss in the bunkers of  Madison Avenue I guess. 

 

You be here with * three(3) riot acts.*  Can we eagerly look forward to them multiplying in a binary way?  Do good riot acts come in threes or is it "three riot acts you're out."

 

3 now, then 9 and ...lots more where them first 3 riot acts hatched.  At least now there's someplace to go for a laugh--polish these things up and Letterman, Jay, Colin, Craig or John Stewart may be burnin' up your phone.

 

So Bill and Paul conceived Windows so Jan could post multiple concommitant riot acts and you could put them up all at once.  I knew they rode their bikes to the big iron company in Seattle as teenagers for a reason.

 

The nuance of how many words go nuts might be in some parts of the world is a quantum leap too sophisticated for me--plus the psychiatric implications.  You aren't referring to puns or double entendres  here are you?

 

The reference to file extensions is  mildly interesting, but not even light years close to  being on point as to why MSFT appropriately condoned html.  The did it for the reasons that print media does it--it's visually and neurologically easier to assimilate and organize, and has more aesthetic value.

 

I referenced attachments because the bandwidth argument as well as a security argument is used against attachments being posted on these public groups.  Attachments are posted on many other XP groups, and the assumption is that minimal security precautions can guard against viewing them.  MSFT had no trouble inviting them when they felt logs should be attached to solve the recent Office SP1 installation problems that were a mild epidemic.

 

 

Exactly what did they about "posting in html"?  I can't quote exactly what they said, because as I said before, it wasn't a public group.  But despite your scepticism, I paraphrased it aptly and accurately.  They said that if you thought it could be visually or conceptually helpful, to go for it--on those groups.  Kelly and many others have access to the comment I feel sure.  Anybody with an MSDN subscription would as well.

 

I don't recall using all caps unless caps were used in a file path.  I think the only recent time was when I pasted your shouting in all caps.  I understand: shouting feels good so you do it.

 

"ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING!"--and Jan feels better.

 

"So, are you really, absolutely, positively sure at this point in time?"

 

I'm only sure that nothing is certain, and that politicians in my country bank on the bell shaped curve of the population being consummately stupid and unwilling to read anything--but able to watch reality TV.

 

No, I wasn't passing the buck to Plato.  Actually, I was mentioning moves that help me visually because I need for print to be larger.  There was a post a couple days ago on trying to get fonts large because someone said they were visually challenged or had a visual problem whichever is more Usenet Etiquetesquely  correct.  In my country there is a mandatory use quotient of 3 times per week for that adverb.

 

I'm afraid I have to disagree with your context of the word rheostat.  I don't think it requires any degree of electrical  sophistication or a knowledge of the physics of electricity.  I have a firm grasp of "what I really meant."  Again, I really meant convenience and you should try the accessibility check in "ignore all fonts on specified web pages."  It was a tip I got early on, and it works very well for the people I've passed it on to or who already use it.

 

I think almost anyone who grew up in my part of the world is familiar with rheostat.  "Yo--Ashley you get down here right now and rheostat that _________ light or is it "lahht" down.  We all done heard it.  Or "Ahm gonna rheostat the throttle on this here lawn mower up a notch so it kin stop missin' all thet grass."

 

"Superior nonsense"  in this context is one of the more bizarre oxymorons I've ever  seen, but I understand I ain't got all that book learnin' like you.  Superior nonsense??  Nope.  Just a nice way to mouse scroll the font to a size that's comfortable.  It ain't like it's diggin' ditches to scroll a mouse is it?

 

I think passing the buck (some responsibility to control his  visual environment) to Plato is one of the most constructive concepts you've had.

 

" YOU you are passing the buck TO Plato!"   And there Jan, you have done shouted real loudly again."  You like to scream.

 

 

 

Again, all the times I posted in html that started these  rants, I did it by accident in that I didn't believe if I weren't using html anywhere in the text anyone would see or be inconvenienced by the impact of html.  I explained that in my answer to Kelly.  I'm still not sure about that and Kelly didn't respond.  Maybe all these riot acts hurt her eyes, or (and I'd have to check on this) there may be a finite level of your "Riot Acts" before someone seizes. Isn't it true that analagous to photosensitive epilepsy:

 

 

"The likelihood of a seizure, as well as its type, in photosensitive individuals depends on the intensity, the contrast of the visual stimulus, and the specific frequency of flashing. Extensive EEG studies have shown that a flicker stimuli between 10 and 30 flashes per second induces the generalized epileptiform discharges and the clinical features characteristic of an epileptic seizure particularly well. Television, computer, and video game screens produce a 50 Hz flicker and a vibrating pattern at half the alternating-current frequency, or 25 flashes per second within the 10 to 30 flashes per second range. The vibrating pattern is only visible when sitting close to the television. Therefore, most television-induced seizures occur at viewing distances between 1.5 and two meters. 100 Hertz televisions cause a vibrating pattern of 50 flashes per second and do not induce seizures."

Trenite, D.G.A. Video Game Epilepsy. The Lancet. October 22, 1994

 

 
that your Riot Acts can induce seizure as well?

 

You know, Jan, I wouldn't have brought this up, your analogy is not even tangentially close. 

 

 "If you drive a car which is capable of driving at twice the legal speed limit on a public road, would you drive at twice that speed, just because you strongly believe that you are able to do so safely?"

 

*Jan--when you was studyin' The Art of Analogy 101--was you on one of them Pass-Fail Systems with a very empathetic sympathetic teacher?*  Do you mind sharing?  Did you get above D+ in that class? Not your major was it?

I don't subscribe to this concept, but the bell shaped curve of people where I live do.  The mean speed on highways in my town was clocked recently in 3 days for 8 hours each day as 87 mph.  That's smokin', and when you 'round the curve and have a 170 (mostly truck) pile up you begin to understand why people stood up at a major league baseball game and cheered when it was announced their schools were dead last in education for 3 years straigth.

 

In my neck of the woods, in the last 10 years there have been the growth of these mammoth trucks designed (poorly) to go off road.  There are 7 times as many of them as there were 5 years ago.  The consume exponentially more gas.  Many of us call the "Humpty Dumpty trucks."  Close to me, they kill several people a week who are occupants of them when they slide off the road.  They kill several hundred people close to me a year, and I reckon you can do that math.

 

The head of the NTSB (a transportation safety agency) in my country spent 20 years as an ER doc.  He found the humpties in 6 independent studies to cause 16 X the number of fatal accidents when they crashed alone, and nearly 27 times the number when they were involved with a small car or a non-humptie dumpty.  They cause my country to make even more profound safety concessions because they are dependent on fuel from outside the country.  There are multiple Canadian studies that parallel the studies in my country almost verbatim.

 

http://tinyurl.com/42tod

 

 

"Just like spammers think that the existence of the eMail system is a good reason for sending spam through it."

 

No Jan. Not even close.  Any superficial, 3rd rate study of spammers shows that it ain't about the existence of the email system.  It's about the money.  Spammers would send Lady Godiva backwards on a limping donkey if they thought it would be significantly more profitable to fill your in box with commercials for all those prostheses that I am still trying to get decent information on. They must be incredibly helpful, because there are so many people selling them--it must translate to a huge market niche--or else an inordinate amount of people slam dunked from turnip trucks  onto their heads when they were little.

"Just like script kiddies think that the existence of insecure websites is a good reason for hacking those sites."

 

No Jan.  You are confusing script kiddies with White Knights or people who get caught hacking seriously and become Security IT Professionals to maximize their job potential.

 

Multiple fonts have evolved since the first visible document was produced.  The use of these was under the control of professional publishers until the introducton of "Desktop Publishing" and "Font Creation"  [used in] software on personal computers." 

 

You make my point well, here.  But that reference to "eye candy" sounds so downright postively sinful like that girl in the Superbowl  halftime who threatened the systemic destruction of the very "fabric of society" and shook the very roots of the Universe, I just get nervous thinking about the eye candy.  Where I come from, they say it causes severe brain damage and it may have.

 

"What are YOUR "good" reasons for rich text and multiple fonts?" 

I thought I gave them.  Anything including neurology, integration from the occipital cortex to the frontal cortex while the impulses take that winding road, and aesthetics would get the idea across for me.  It jest looks prettier--much more prettier, and it emphasizes salient points in a cogent format.

 

"I filter out the following from most of the websites that I visit:

 - <STYLE>, <FONT> elements and attributes, <LINK>ed stylesheets and <META> charsets

 - COLOR attributes"

 

Thanks a heap for sharing.  And if you use Linux or one of a number of operating systems without all that eye candy that I've grown fond  enough of to change skins and font colors and styles on my gui every half hour, then you won't have to fend with all of that in the first place.

 

There also are ways to give Windows XP, Longhorn, and Blackcomb a Windows 3.1 look.  Or you can use Windows 3.1.  Many sites allow the download, and I think MSFT graciously is not going to pursue it, and it's legal to download 3.1 right now.

"However, pasting HTML into Notepad (or your favourite TEXT-editor or Word-Processor in TEXT-mode) first, will strip the HTML markup. *Then* copy the resulting TEXT *from* Notepad and paste *into* OE."

 

That's absolutely fab, Jan. But even if that ominous html formatting bar is under the "Subject" line in OE, if all you'r posting is a clickable hyperlink, then what is it that requires Notepad's stripping.  I mean again, the only thing in the text is a url to some site.  You don't want to and don't I believe, strip the clickability which I think even you will conceded has pragmatic results.

 

Unless I can't remember, Kelly always signs her posts with links to her site, and the more people who get those links down, the better the world will be.  Many people use links, last I checked and the links have been the source of some great information and terrific sites for me.

 

Again, I didn't think I was giving anyone anything in html but a link.  The only thing I noticed was that the format of the newsgroup would post a link to the poster's email address or fake email address so that it was clickable.

 

PS: "There is *no* spoon!" [Matrix reloaded]

 Matrix mania was not something that gripped me.  I suspect the majority of Matrix fanatics did it for the inclusion and to feel cool then out of genuine enjoyment but just my opinion.  So the ref is lost on me. 

 

There is no "html bar".  Hey Jan, you've already shown that you enjoy a little delusion in your life and that's cool with me.  You can call it J-Lo's Business Suit if you want.  But Microsoft calls it the "html formatting bar"--or Dr. Bryan Pfaffenberger and his editorial team call it that in the last MS Press fat book on IE and OE.  You didn't give him that cutting edge name Phaffenblog for his blog did you?  He has some html books, Jan--not to early to write Santa your wish list.

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1572319496/102-4148723-4646546?v=glance

 

 

http://pfaff.tcc.virginia.edu/pfaffenblog/tiki-view_articles.php

http://www.allbookstores.com/browse/Author/Pfaffenberger,%20Bryan

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764534734/wwwlink-software-21/026-9497768-5742023

 

http://www.programmertutorials.com/cgi-bin/amazon/amazon_products_feed.cgi?mode=books&search_type=AuthorSearch&input_string=Bryan+Pfaffenberger&locale=us

 

You know them Microsofties--always playin' tricks and callin' it the "html formatting bar" on their website--is that like the registry  D_Word value  so intuitively named "Pretty Path??"

 

Mosy on down Jan to the fourth (4th) section in this article by the same company that graciously brought you the completely free Outlook Express and their newsgroups and their server farm at your disposal.   How crazy could they be goin' on about that formatting toolbar.  Probably a script kiddie hacked their site or messed with the Redmond server farm.  They get 250,000 attacks a day and this could have been one.

 

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/using/howto/oe/personalize.mspx

 

"... menu in a new message window: a black dot by the Rich Text (HTML) command shows ... On
the Formatting Bar, click the buttons for the options you want as shown below ..."

 

 

Ain't this some of where you was referrin' in OE?

 

http://tinyurl.com/58ocn

 

 

Ain't this here one the "Formatting bar" Jan?  They done put up screenshots of it and everything.  Lookit thet puppy in "Step 3"  What do thet be?  It looks like it just can't stop formattin'. 

 

http://www.animationfactory.com/help/tutorial_oe.html

 

And Spinnin' Jenny she done got it too:

http://www.spinningjenny.com/outlook/rich_text.htm

 

 

Also, that ficticious bar does *not* appear when replying to a HTML post, provided that...

 Tools | Options | /Read\
   [Y] "Read all messages in plain text"

 Tools | Options | /Send\

   [_] 'Reply to messages using the format in which they were sent'

 

It sure do and if you want to put up some real money, I'll give you a shot at remote access and you can see fer yerselffff!!!!!

 

Now you got to decide or get help to decide if you are seein' a visual hallucination or MSFT has called it a "formatting toolbar" on their site.

 

" You still insist on telling others what THEY should or should not do, yet YOU cannot be told anything, and you believe that YOUhave been misunderstood and/or wronged."

 

If you see HTML formatting from now on, it's intentional.  But I am not telling any others what they should do.  I have a government that's gone way over the top in the last months doing that.  I think whatever Jan.  Knock yourself out. 

 

What do you want to name that fictional puppy?  How 'bout Jan and J-Lo's Evil Eye Candy bar?

How 'bout "the bar what Jan calls fictional right there."  How 'bout that big Redmond company with a global reach is tryin' to play tricks on Jan again?

 

In your reply to Ms. Tick in the thread titled "Windows Media Player, Help needed!" you ended with...
> Some has done been more beta and some has done been less.

 

Are you and Ms. Tick the same person??  You is beginnin' to sound a lot like Prim Prickly Prodigiously Confused  Perspicacia--the Divine Ms. Tick.  You really know the art of closing a document.

 

Is this university-speak?
Would you be so kind as to translate this into standard English?

 

They has got a university near me that tried to fire the President because they wouldn't keep a football coach around for 40 more years, and where one coach was taped teaching a course whose exam question literally asked how many halves their were in football and basketball games for 20% credit in the exam.  Secret meetin's and things to fire the President and turn it into football university.

 

And I tried to go to a school in the same area, but much much different.  A whole lots different.

 

That's where I picked up the Honors English program for fun.

"Finally, are you a gifted child?"  Very nice thought.

 

I am sure that's not in the ballpark of most of the things I was called growing up, (99% of them would be quintissential eye candy for this family oriented forum,  but I am certain my dog with big ears is.  Does that count?  Now everytime I yell " HTML Formatting toolbar"--he is giving me a spontaneous nuanced "Hi Five."  He knows it when he sees it.  He wants me to use it for Jan.

 

I have to go read him 7 minutes of "The Little Goat"--book from Booker Elementary,  and then hold a Press Conference and run for Barksdale AFB  in Louisiana and Offut AFB in Nebraska. It sounds like such an effective response, Jan.  Then the FAA can tell Norad ah'm readin' The Little Goat in HTML or is it Plain Text--an' they don't have a clue what to do and no direction in HTML or Plain Text.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/articles/bush091101.htm

 

 

Chad Harris

 

 

 

 

"One woof for Plain Text and Two Woofs for HTML--one if by land and two if by sea and Condi wouldn't recognize it if it were 6" from her with a neon sign--even if one out of 50 explicit discriptions was translated and the translaters were fired (60 Minutes X 3 shows) for complaining.

Boy ah feels real secure."

 

---H.W. Longfellow "Paul Revere's Ride"

__________________________________________________________

 

 

"+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:uCT2RgYf...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

[Kelly]

Chad,

I do appreciate your wanting to understand/critique things, but beings this
is an OE issue, perhaps you could visit the great guys and gals in the OE
groups where this type of thing is discussed daily. :o)

>I wasn't that upset, or trying to make a big deal out of this....

Glad to hear and maybe it is time to move on?

> Also I know you hae a reason for everything you say, and I was trying to
> figure out what I didn't appreciate about the step of pasting into
> notepad. If I'm missing something there, and you can also clarify what
> shows up as html if the only thing you do is paste a hyperlink, I'd
> appreciate it.

This had to do with a mention you made about doing a copy and paste from a
website. Again, when you are doing so (because of formatting, etc) copy it
into Notepad before copying it here. Simple! :o)

--
All the Best,
Kelly

Microsoft-MVP Windows® XP
2004 Windows MVP "Winny" Award

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:etD2nSSf...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

Sorry for being so dense.  What you meant is that the different formatting on your SR article (possibly supplied by the guy who wrote it) would be stripped and wouldn't have been reproduced after notepad stripped it.  Had I known it would bother someone, I could have easily reformatted it before posting by simply moving it next to regular plain text--the same way large MSKB titles get changed or anything else.  I really was suprised when it was prerved just as I was surprised when that reg key was preserved from Is It True?  Why?  Because they never had been before--and I assumed they would be stripped automaticaly.  That's what happened.

 

You're right about OE problems going to OE, and normally that's what I'd do.  I wonder though if you can answer one question that still has me confused.

 

If the html formatting bar or whatever you would like to name it (I know Jan says it doesn't exist) but Microsoft does in a dozen places cubed) is down--and it does show up on this group and not others when I click reply on the OE toolbar but the only thing you are posting is plain text--you aren't underlining anything or I paste a link from Kelly's XP how have I posted in html--I'm not arguing I'm just trying to figure this out.  That bar has come down hundreds of times in this group, but I never got a complaint when you were on the thread and I think the reason is because regular hyperlinks and text were just plain text and hyperlinks on the post.   What changed was that font preserved in your Sys Restore article.

 

BTW Kelly--That little tidbit of very  important information is mentioned absolutely nowhere I can find on the web going to scores of XP sites and SR articles.  It's key to understanding why so many people complained SR won't work.  Before I saw that I attributed it to dirty shutdowns and corrupted restore points as the logical cause it failed, although of course there could have been some others.

 

MSFT doesn't mention it anywhere on MSDN or Technet or any of their KBs on SP1 or SR.  And wouldn't you agree that if I interpret it correctly, a whole lot of people walked away from trying to use SR to save their system or make a change believing SR was just not effective.  The guy from the SR team never explained exactly how people were locked away from the restore point, but if they didn't reach it, they weren't going to get the snapshot of the registry back to before the problem they were trying to fix.

 

Right now the bar is down.  But I'm not pasting so much as a hyperlink so there shouldn't be any html deployed and shouldn't even if I do paste a hyperlink.  It would only become a problem if I did something with a font or paragraph formatting, ect. wouldn't it? I'm not trying to run this into the ground, or foist an OE problem on the XP group, but I know you can straighten me out on this one.

 

Is there anything in this post that causes any html problems Jan or anyone else outlined.  The checks or radio buttons  have been in the correct box  on the send tab, but it comes down and on this group for reasons that escape me but not other MSFT public groups.  I can take that question to OE--I just wonder if there is anything showing here that steps over the html line?  My guess is no.

 

Thanks,

Chad Harris

 

 

"Kelly" <ke...@mvps.org> wrote in message news:ujMw2Cff...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

[Kelly]

Chad,

You are posting in html again.

As for your line: SR, Is it True,Why?......I have no clue what you are
speaking of. If it is on my site, you would have to give more information
as to which section, etc.

However, I haven't worked any SR threads as of late, so don't even know why
you are bringing this up in this thread, anyway. I would suggest starting a
new one for someone else.

As for your settings for OE (to view, read and send in plain text) has
already been explained and you verified. As for hyperlinks, etc. as you can
clearly see, my signature contain one, 90% of the body of my replies contain
them and I post in plain text.

To prevent posting in html using OE don't use Rich Text.

--
All the Best,
Kelly

Microsoft-MVP Windows® XP
2004 Windows MVP "Winny" Award

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:%23lpq9Wj...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

[Ron Sommer]

When you are composing the message, Format, Plain Text.
If you have the formatting bar in your composition window, you are using
HTML even if you only put text in the message.

You guess is wrong.
Even a text only email formatted HTML has a larger file size than plain
text.
--
Ron Sommer

==snipped==

Right now the bar is down. But I'm not pasting so much as a hyperlink so
there shouldn't be any html deployed and shouldn't even if I do paste a
hyperlink. It would only become a problem if I did something with a font or
paragraph formatting, ect. wouldn't it? I'm not trying to run this into the
ground, or foist an OE problem on the XP group, but I know you can
straighten me out on this one.

Is there anything in this post that causes any html problems Jan or anyone
else outlined. The checks or radio buttons have been in the correct box
on the send tab, but it comes down and on this group for reasons that escape
me but not other MSFT public groups. I can take that question to OE--I just
wonder if there is anything showing here that steps over the html line? My
guess is no.

Thanks,

Chad Harris

==snipped==

[Chad Harris]

Kelly--

1) If I'm posting in HTML again, it's really difficult to tell how.
Everything is turned off at every possible html spicket. I have both mail
and newsgroups set to plain text on the Tools>Options send.

2) When I click on the Reply icon on the toolbar, it automatically sets up
to format in html--I have no clue why nor does anyone else here, and I'll
take it to the OE MVPs but I am turning it off manually by selecting
Format>Plain text on the newsgroup message. If this message posts as html,
I'm missing something gigantic.

3) My reference to "Is It true" was a registry key I pasted when HTML kicked
in automatically and I didn't know it--that retained HTML formatting and it
brought the comment "html?" from you in a post the other day--Same issue as
#2 and the same thing I pasted from here in your SR article on your site at
the bottom. It didn't have anything to do with *any SR thread* you
"worked."

I *really* appreciate the clarification from Ron here--it helps--I was
caught off guard thinking that if you only put text in the message and the
bar is down you aren't posting in html--now I know you are-- but the bar
(the one that doesn't exist in Jan's universe but does in Microsoft's IE/OE
development team's) won't be staying down at least in this group.

"When you are composing the message, Format, Plain Text.
If you have the formatting bar in your composition window, you are using
HTML even if you only put text in the message."

There shouldn't be a relationship with the Mail Sending Format and the
Email sending format but maybe there is. I think Tom Koch and many others
have pointed out that OE has not been the most perfectly crafted (to use the
over-worked TV talking head Congressional buzz word) application--it's free
but it brings the newsgroups a lot better than the web interface so it's
valuable. It also is easier to use for mail than Outlook for some new
users.

BTW I pasted that title below from the System Restore web page on your site
linked below into Notepad and it came into this message *still in a bold
format,* but my friend the HTML Formatting bar wasn't showing. So as not to
risk it, I just wiped it out and typed it.

Highlights of System Restore Fixes in SP1

http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com/xp_restore.htm

So I'll look for the answer to those two questions from OE
MVPs/mavens/experts/enthusiasts

1) Why does the ##%%%&&** bar persist in showing up when I click reply on
the message toolbar under subject so that I manually have to turn it off
(mouse clicks not digging ditches)?

2) Why did the title from your webpage at the bottom from the piece that
Anshul Rawat [MS] wrote persist in bold even after I stripped it into
notepad?

If anyone knows another place to stop html I'm all ears for this--if it's
still showing up. I seriously doubt it is. I thought I hit every location
on the OE menus possible.

Chad

"Kelly" <ke...@mvps.org> wrote in message

news:u4hCJOq...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

[Kelly]

<LOL> Doubt it was Macbeth, though. Good luck!

--
All the Best,
Kelly

Microsoft-MVP Windows® XP
2004 Windows MVP "Winny" Award

Troubleshooting Windows XP
http://www.kellys-korner-xp.com

"Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:uliWZuwf...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

[Chad Harris]

Kelly--

One of the places it is best known for is Lady Macbeth Scene V Act 1 Line
35.
"Out, damn'd spot!" Lady Macbeth cries, "out, I say!" (V:i:35). Some count
it as line 34.

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:4Vr8ShKAYnsJ:server.riverdale.k12.or.us/~bblack/drama/macquote.html+out+out+damn+spot+from+macbeth&hl=en

http://www.toxiccustard.com/shakespeare/macbeth5ix.html

http://www.toxiccustard.com/shakespeare/

With all the sites spinning off of this quote for a million different
purposes, and all the Shakespeare sites--some incredibly good, I was
wondering what it must be like to take a lap top to school when your mom has
one of the best Windows sites on the web instead of sitting in a hot
terribly lit library lugging huge books out of it, and trying to find a book
to write your paper(the *one you have to have*) that won't ever be back in
the library. You could take notes in your classes with a cheap mike and One
Note and write your papers with Word and the internet and turn them in
electronically with hyperlinks instead of footnotes.

Chad
__________________________________________

"Kelly" <ke...@mvps.org> wrote in message

news:u92Fa64f...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

[Bill]

"+-J" wrote:

>
> Chad,
>
> | Thanks Jan--
> |
> | May have seemed obvious, but I thought by definition that a hyperlink is in
> | HTML and I'll have to clear this up for myself.
>
> For HTML in a web browser, yes.
>
>
> | I also thought in general
> | with OE and OL, that whatever format you used would only be viewed if the
> | recipient has format enough to view it--and I know RTF has a different
> | meaning in OL and OE.
> |
> | This is a different question and technically one in OE but if you embed a
> | graphic into the text of OE won't the recipient have to have HTML activated
> | to view the picture. If they don't when they receive it and read directions
> | to activate it will they be able to see the picture?
>
>
> For MS Outlook (Express|) - not the same behaviour.
>
>
> I use MS Outlook Express (in "minimal" mode) only as a news-reader.
>
> I would never use it for eMails.
>
> I observe how it behaves, but I have no interest in its inner workings.
> (However, David does know.)
> ---
> Jan

>
>
> | "+-J" <bitb...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> | news:ud1KYuxe...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> | >
> | > "Chad Harris" <ddram32...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> | > <SNIP />
> | > | Even if you're posting in simple text, a hyperlink is going to show up
> | > | and doesn't that require html?
> | > <SNIP />
> | > Chad,
> | > In Outlook Express, in TEXT-mode, all hyperlinks are clickable.
> | > ---
> | > Jan
>
>
>

[Cyrus]

"Chad Harris" wrote:

> There have been a number of installation errors of the July 27th Office 2003 Updates and other Office version updates, particularly Office 2003 SP1 remedied by Office resource kit tools and other tools like the Windows Installer Cleanup Utility, and I'm pasting this information that has come up from Sloan Crayton [MS] who has been generously helping and providing some useful information on using these Office tools to help with install/setup problems. Because it involves information I have not seen anywhere, including MSKB, MSDN, Technet or Windows SP2/MSI 3.0 articles and good artifcles on System Restore, I'm pasting some of it here:
>
> _______________________________________________________
>
> After running the Installer Clean utility to remove remnants of OfficeXP, now if I try to update Office 2003 Pro from the website, this is EXACTLY what I get:
> >
> >
> > The Office Update site is unable to check for updates on this
> > computer. This may be happening because of one of the following
> > reasons:
> >
> > You do not have administrative privileges for this computer.
> >
> > There is a network problem and the detection catalog used by the
> > Office Update site failed to download. Go back to the Downloads home
> > page and try running detection again.
> >
> > Windows Installer patch files (.MSP files) from previously applied
> > Office updates are missing from the \Windows\Installer hidden
> > directory on your computer. MSP files are stored on your computer
> > after update installation completes because they need to be referenced
> > for future update operations. If the files are missing you will not be
> > able to apply Office updates. You may also be unable to uninstall
> > Office products as a result of the same problem. Please contact
> > Microsoft Product Support Services for assistance.
> >
> > You installed Office updates in the past and then upgraded from
> > Windows Installer version 1.0 to Windows Installer version 1.1. For
> > more information see the KB article Windows Installer May Prompt for
> > Install Source if Unavailable.
> >
> > Search for Office updates in the Download Catalog
>
> The Problem With System Restore and the Windows Installer Corrected by Windows Installer 3.0
>
> (Fixing the Problem but not Fixing the Registry Once It's Corrupted):
>
> ______________________________________________________________
>
> Windows System Restore will corrupt the Windows Installer registry
> information for Office (and other applications). Windows Installer 3.0
> (included in Windows XP SP2 when it ships) will fix this bug
>
> The use of Windows System Restore is one of the known causes. Windows Installer 3.0 which is included in Windows XP SP2 fixes this problem (but will not fix it once it's broken).
>
> You will need to use the Windows Installer Cleanup Utility to remove the
> Windows Installer registry information for all installed Office products.
> Then you'll need to install Office 2003 again and then install any service
> packs and public updates.
>
> This is documented in the KB article at
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;304498.
>
> Sloan Crayton
> Microsoft
>
> _________________________________________________________________
>
> Best,
>
> Chad Harris
>
>