why have a server?...advice needed
Greg Peterson
will likely be a key decision maker for the IT equipment.
In the future company, I am wondering why we need to have a server, when a
relatively cheap NAS will likely do the trick for all of our filesharing
needs (mostly sharing engineering drawings and other large files). For
e-mail, we'll probably go with Gmail and eliminate the need for any mail
server (if people want to set up POP3 accounts on their PCs, that's their
choice). Our website will receive minimal traffic, so it will be hosted
elsewhere.
If we use something like Peachtree accounting (which is for 5 or so users),
then must an application like that be run on a server? Or could it also run
on a NAS?
We'd also like to cut the cord to the phone company, and integrate Skype
with our PBX system. Would that require a server, or could we get by with a
product like this?
http://www.zipcom.com.tw/products/Product-SkyPBX-SVR.htm
I guess what I'm asking is: Which applications typically used by a small
business require a server, and could a NAS suffice?
Thanks,
Greg
leew [MVP]
I recommend servers in ALMOST all instances, even for businesses 1/4
your size. In particular, Microsoft has an excellent product available,
Microsoft Small Business Server 2003 (SBS 2003).
What this offers you that you rarely get with a "cheap" NAS device:
1. Single Logon. In a domain environment, you can setup your computers
so that each user has a logon that can be used on ANY computer. When
they change their password, the change is effective on ALL computers
that are a member of the domain. In a Workgroup, you must setup a user
account on EACH computer the user will log on to - or use a common logon
which means you have no way of tracking who does what.
2. Centralized Management - you can control system settings on ALL
systems from one system. For example, SBS will allow you to redirect
everyone's My Documents and Desktop folders to a folder on the server.
This is called folder redirection.
3. I've used Gmail for an organization I'm in. I love google... but I
HATE gmail. I've gotten so many important messages flagged as SPAM it's
not funny. Maybe it was a config error on our administrators part, but
I also don't like that I can't create (easily, if at all) sub folders.
I would strongly advise against using the gmail facility at this time
(I'm sure I'm in the minority).
4. Centralized backup. With Folder redirection, mentioned in #2,
you can backup virtually all user data without concern by backing up
JUST the server. (Your network, ideally, will be setup so that your
users can use ANY workstation (or almost any workstation) and if one
fails, it really won't matter; they can sit at another employee's desk
and pick up right where they left off).
5. Exchange Server, included with SBS, will provide shared and group
calendars, e-mail, tasks, and contacts.
6. One of the best features of SBS (and Windows Server 2003 and later)
is Volume Shadow Copy, not typically offered by any CHEAP NAS. This
feature takes automatic, periodic backups that users can easily restore
themselves by right clicking on a folder and reviewing the history of
the backups. EXPENSIVE NAS units typically offer this "snapshot"
feature, but they typically cost AT LEAST $5,000 - usually more like
$10K plus.
7. Remote access options with SBS include Remote Web Workplace,
Sharepoint, and VPN.
I have a few pages you might want to review to get a better
understanding of the SBS product and backup in general. You should also
might want to review the link on Volume Shadow Copy.
http://www.visualwin.com/VSS/
http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/sbs.asp
http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/backup.asp
Greg Peterson
"leew [MVP]" <useCont...@LWComputing.dot.com> wrote in message
news:47ed89c1$0$25019$607e...@cv.net...
> 1. Single Logon. In a domain environment, you can setup your computers so
> that each user has a logon that can be used on ANY computer. When they
> change their password, the change is effective on ALL computers that are a
> member of the domain. In a Workgroup, you must setup a user account on
> EACH computer the user will log on to - or use a common logon which means
> you have no way of tracking who does what.
>
Everyone will have one computer, and there will not be any need to use one
another's computer. So I guess the Single Logon does not matter here.
> 2. Centralized Management - you can control system settings on ALL systems
> from one system. For example, SBS will allow you to redirect everyone's
> My Documents and Desktop folders to a folder on the server. This is called
> folder redirection.
>
This is a good point, but what is the purpose of collecting everyone's "My
Documents" and desktop folders? Is it for backup purposes? If so, why not
use an online backup tool for each computer (e.g. www.carbonite.com). Cost
is about $50/year per computer.
> 3. I've used Gmail for an organization I'm in. I love google... but I
> HATE gmail. I've gotten so many important messages flagged as SPAM it's
> not funny. Maybe it was a config error on our administrators part, but I
> also don't like that I can't create (easily, if at all) sub folders. I
> would strongly advise against using the gmail facility at this time (I'm
> sure I'm in the minority).
>
Point taken.
> 4. Centralized backup. With Folder redirection, mentioned in #2,
> you can backup virtually all user data without concern by backing up JUST
> the server. (Your network, ideally, will be setup so that your users can
> use ANY workstation (or almost any workstation) and if one fails, it
> really won't matter; they can sit at another employee's desk and pick up
> right where they left off).
>
See my response to point #2 above. If someone's computer fails, there will
of course be some downtime given the time to reconfigure their computer and
retrieve their backup, but that should be somewhat rare.
> 5. Exchange Server, included with SBS, will provide shared and group
> calendars, e-mail, tasks, and contacts.
>
I have been using Gmail's group calendar and contacts and find them both
very good.
> 6. One of the best features of SBS (and Windows Server 2003 and later) is
> Volume Shadow Copy, not typically offered by any CHEAP NAS. This feature
> takes automatic, periodic backups that users can easily restore themselves
> by right clicking on a folder and reviewing the history of the backups.
> EXPENSIVE NAS units typically offer this "snapshot" feature, but they
> typically cost AT LEAST $5,000 - usually more like $10K plus.
>
The NAS would be used only for file sharing, not for taking backup images.
An online tool like Carbonite would be used. Storing the data online (and
offsite) makes sense in that it protects from fire, floods, etc.
> 7. Remote access options with SBS include Remote Web Workplace,
> Sharepoint, and VPN.
>
This is a very good point, but with laptops being issued to many employees
who travel, and using Gmail for e-mail and calendar features, I see the
remote logon being less important. The only thing they'd need remote access
to would be the local NAS, which we would probably set up with an FTP or
something.
> I have a few pages you might want to review to get a better understanding
> of the SBS product and backup in general. You should also might want to
> review the link on Volume Shadow Copy.
>
> http://www.visualwin.com/VSS/
> http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/sbs.asp
> http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/backup.asp
Thanks very much for taking the time to reply.
leew [MVP]
> Very good points, but allow me to respond....
Quick question - what is it this business does? Is it a real estate
agency? A sales office? What? I don't need to know EXACT SPECIFIC
DETAILS, but I'm being forced to generalize because I know nothing of
what the business will do, other than it will have 20-30 users and many
with laptops.
>
> "leew [MVP]" <useCont...@LWComputing.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:47ed89c1$0$25019$607e...@cv.net...
>> 1. Single Logon. In a domain environment, you can setup your computers so
>> that each user has a logon that can be used on ANY computer. When they
>> change their password, the change is effective on ALL computers that are a
>> member of the domain. In a Workgroup, you must setup a user account on
>> EACH computer the user will log on to - or use a common logon which means
>> you have no way of tracking who does what.
>>
> Everyone will have one computer, and there will not be any need to use one
> another's computer. So I guess the Single Logon does not matter here.
Sorry, but in my experience, there's always a need, especially when you
have 20-30 users. Even for you or your support people.
>
>> 2. Centralized Management - you can control system settings on ALL systems
>> from one system. For example, SBS will allow you to redirect everyone's
>> My Documents and Desktop folders to a folder on the server. This is called
>> folder redirection.
>>
> This is a good point, but what is the purpose of collecting everyone's "My
> Documents" and desktop folders? Is it for backup purposes? If so, why not
> use an online backup tool for each computer (e.g. www.carbonite.com). Cost
> is about $50/year per computer.
Ok... $50/computer/year... that's $1000 per year. How much data will
you have? How fast will your internet connection be? Folder
Redirection is also used when users move around. At one of my clients,
they are packed in like sardines and by redirecting their folders, they
can sit at ANY unused computer and when they log on, they have complete
access to all their files without having to do anything. But that's not
the only form of centralized management.
I assume you'll be getting Microsoft Office for this company? Or
perhaps an Antivirus program? Both office and Antivirus can be deployed
using Active Directory. Do you want to go around to each machine and
install office manually? Or would you like to copy the source CD to the
network, define the package, and then the next time each computer is
booted, office and the antivirus program and possible other software is
automatically installed. Ok... so you buy office with the computer...
fine... what about upgrades?
Do you think you might want to be able to restrict what people do
online? Servers can help you do that more effectively and administered
all from a remote location. What happens if you have a custom software
program that needs an update on each computer... with a small script,
you can push that update to everyone's systems with about 20 minutes of
work.
Perhaps you'd like to TRY to prevent your systems from getting infected
with malware... well, you CAN go to each computer and implement policies
manually - or you can setup one or more policies and apply them to all
workstations from the server simply by placing the workstation or policy
on the appropriate object in Active Directory.
How about setting up printers? Is everyone going to have their own?
That seems like a waste... do you want to know who prints what? Maybe
give someone priority so their print jobs ALWAYS print first (bosses
usually like that). Maybe you want to add a printer to the network...
Well, with a server, add the printer to an SBS system and the next time
the workstation user logs on, they have access the printer... OR you
could go around and spend 5 minutes on each computer configuring the
printer manually... or instruct your users how to do it, I suppose...
>
>> 3. I've used Gmail for an organization I'm in. I love google... but I
>> HATE gmail. I've gotten so many important messages flagged as SPAM it's
>> not funny. Maybe it was a config error on our administrators part, but I
>> also don't like that I can't create (easily, if at all) sub folders. I
>> would strongly advise against using the gmail facility at this time (I'm
>> sure I'm in the minority).
>>
> Point taken.
>
>> 4. Centralized backup. With Folder redirection, mentioned in #2,
>> you can backup virtually all user data without concern by backing up JUST
>> the server. (Your network, ideally, will be setup so that your users can
>> use ANY workstation (or almost any workstation) and if one fails, it
>> really won't matter; they can sit at another employee's desk and pick up
>> right where they left off).
>>
> See my response to point #2 above. If someone's computer fails, there will
> of course be some downtime given the time to reconfigure their computer and
> retrieve their backup, but that should be somewhat rare.
It should be - until they get infected with malware once a month (or
more often) because that new employee likes to tweak EVERYTHING and
downloads software illegally or maybe "stumbles" onto a porno web site
with malware embedded in it.
>> 5. Exchange Server, included with SBS, will provide shared and group
>> calendars, e-mail, tasks, and contacts.
>>
> I have been using Gmail's group calendar and contacts and find them both
> very good.
I haven't used them so I can't specifically comment on them... but
consider this - IF you buy a server, the obvious choice is Small
Business Server (SBS). SBS is CHEAPER than a "Standard" copy of server
AND it INCLUDES Exchange Server... so you might as well put it to good
use. The capabilities of exchange are impressive (and occasionally
frustrating -- but you can say about virtually any groupware solution).
>
>> 6. One of the best features of SBS (and Windows Server 2003 and later) is
>> Volume Shadow Copy, not typically offered by any CHEAP NAS. This feature
>> takes automatic, periodic backups that users can easily restore themselves
>> by right clicking on a folder and reviewing the history of the backups.
>> EXPENSIVE NAS units typically offer this "snapshot" feature, but they
>> typically cost AT LEAST $5,000 - usually more like $10K plus.
>>
> The NAS would be used only for file sharing, not for taking backup images.
> An online tool like Carbonite would be used. Storing the data online (and
> offsite) makes sense in that it protects from fire, floods, etc.
Volume Shadow Copy is NOT the same thing. I assume Carbonite would run
nightly? Volume shadow copy, as I configure it for most of my clients,
runs every 3 hours from 7am to 7pm. At which point you can go back to
any of the backup points - 7am, 10am, 1pm, 4pm, or 7pm on a given day.
And it's instantaneous (as instantaneous as a file copy).
Otherwise, in general, you are correct. Except that this is dependent
upon your internet connection to some extent and the recovery time would
be longer.
Also, how are you backing up the NAS device? What happens if it fails?
Especially if you end up setting up a significant configuration, this
could be HOURS of tedious work getting a NAS to replace it.
>
>> 7. Remote access options with SBS include Remote Web Workplace,
>> Sharepoint, and VPN.
>>
> This is a very good point, but with laptops being issued to many employees
> who travel, and using Gmail for e-mail and calendar features, I see the
> remote logon being less important. The only thing they'd need remote access
> to would be the local NAS, which we would probably set up with an FTP or
> something.
I hope you wouldn't use FTP. That's just inviting people to steal your
data. FTP is an insecure protocol, user names and passwords are
transmitted in clear text, meaning anyone who can catch a packet can
determine how to access your files. This is not exactly difficult for a
hacker.
What about accounting systems? Or maintenance?
>
>> I have a few pages you might want to review to get a better understanding
>> of the SBS product and backup in general. You should also might want to
>> review the link on Volume Shadow Copy.
>>
>> http://www.visualwin.com/VSS/
>> http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/sbs.asp
>> http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/backup.asp
> Thanks very much for taking the time to reply.
>
>
Couple of other tips -
Get an account rep with Dell (or some other major vendor - my preference
is Dell) and for a business, stick to the OptiPlex, Latitude,
Workstation, and PowerVault lines. These systems are relatively cheap,
come with excellent warranties, and are GENERALLY highly reliable in my
experience. EVERYONE can make a lemon... and everyone can make a BATCH
of lemons... but in my experience, you have very good odds of NOT having
too many lemons and when you do, getting them repaired quickly, when
using Dell. (I despise HP - every time I've called their support for
ANYTHING I get routed to India and get a different, lame suggestion as
to how to repair something. Again, in my experience, 50/50 chance you
hit the Dell India support queue... but that's a 50% better chance than
you have with HP... and you can always call Dell back later.
When buying Laptops, get 3 year warranties AND 3 year accidental damage
coverage. It's expensive (typically $400-$500 per laptop), but laptops
travel MUCH more than desktops... things spill, they drop, etc. The
warranty will protect against all that.
When buying a server, get a 3 year, 24x7x365 warranty with 4 hour
response. MUST BE 4 hour response. The server runs the business. The
desktop does not. Desktops can have 1 year warranties... but the server
needs a FULL 3 year warranty.
Greg Peterson
was hoping for. See my replies below.
"leew [MVP]" <useCont...@LWComputing.dot.com> wrote in message
news:47edb592$0$5611$607e...@cv.net...
> Greg Peterson wrote:
>> Very good points, but allow me to respond....
>
> Quick question - what is it this business does? Is it a real estate
> agency? A sales office? What? I don't need to know EXACT SPECIFIC
> DETAILS, but I'm being forced to generalize because I know nothing of what
> the business will do, other than it will have 20-30 users and many with
> laptops.
>
It's a light manufacturing company. About 20 office people (design
engineers, purchasing, HR, accounting, etc.) and about 8 people in the plant
(of which only 2 people in shipping & receiving have computers).
>> "leew [MVP]" <useCont...@LWComputing.dot.com> wrote in message
>> news:47ed89c1$0$25019$607e...@cv.net...
>>> 1. Single Logon. In a domain environment, you can setup your computers
>>> so that each user has a logon that can be used on ANY computer. When
>>> they change their password, the change is effective on ALL computers
>>> that are a member of the domain. In a Workgroup, you must setup a user
>>> account on EACH computer the user will log on to - or use a common logon
>>> which means you have no way of tracking who does what.
>>>
>> Everyone will have one computer, and there will not be any need to use
>> one another's computer. So I guess the Single Logon does not matter
>> here.
>
> Sorry, but in my experience, there's always a need, especially when you
> have 20-30 users. Even for you or your support people.
Still not convinced we'd be using one another's computer. In the 3
businesses I've worked in (all fairly large companies), I've never been
asked to use someone else's computer, nor has someone else used mine.
>>> 2. Centralized Management - you can control system settings on ALL
>>> systems from one system. For example, SBS will allow you to redirect
>>> everyone's My Documents and Desktop folders to a folder on the server.
>>> This is called folder redirection.
>>>
>> This is a good point, but what is the purpose of collecting everyone's
>> "My Documents" and desktop folders? Is it for backup purposes? If so,
>> why not use an online backup tool for each computer (e.g.
>> www.carbonite.com). Cost is about $50/year per computer.
>
> Ok... $50/computer/year... that's $1000 per year. How much data will you
> have? How fast will your internet connection be? Folder Redirection is
> also used when users move around. At one of my clients, they are packed
> in like sardines and by redirecting their folders, they can sit at ANY
> unused computer and when they log on, they have complete access to all
> their files without having to do anything. But that's not the only form
> of centralized management.
>
That's right. $1000/year for safe, secure backup with unlimited storage.
Regardless of the backup solution, we will pay for a T-1 (to ensure Skype
has sufficient bandwidth), and do the backups at night. To compare with
what my present employer does, we paid several thousand $ for a server &
tape backup system, and pay $750/MONTH for Iron Mountain data storage to
come onsite every morning to pickup our tapes and store them offsite. You
can see how $1000/year quickly got my attention.
> I assume you'll be getting Microsoft Office for this company? Or perhaps
> an Antivirus program? Both office and Antivirus can be deployed using
> Active Directory. Do you want to go around to each machine and install
> office manually? Or would you like to copy the source CD to the network,
> define the package, and then the next time each computer is booted, office
> and the antivirus program and possible other software is automatically
> installed. Ok... so you buy office with the computer... fine... what
> about upgrades?
>
Here you bring up a genuine advantage. I can see the pain/time required of
going around to each machine to do updates. But so far, that seems to be
one of the few concrete benefits of using a server.
> Do you think you might want to be able to restrict what people do online?
> Servers can help you do that more effectively and administered all from a
> remote location. What happens if you have a custom software program that
> needs an update on each computer... with a small script, you can push that
> update to everyone's systems with about 20 minutes of work.
>
We may need to restrict what they do online, but isn't that possible using a
fairly sophisticated router? As for the custom software program you asked
about, so far I foresee us only using over-the-counter software.
> Perhaps you'd like to TRY to prevent your systems from getting infected
> with malware... well, you CAN go to each computer and implement policies
> manually - or you can setup one or more policies and apply them to all
> workstations from the server simply by placing the workstation or policy
> on the appropriate object in Active Directory.
>
Another genuine advantage. I'll think this one over, but see my point below
about malware.
> How about setting up printers? Is everyone going to have their own? That
> seems like a waste... do you want to know who prints what? Maybe give
> someone priority so their print jobs ALWAYS print first (bosses usually
> like that). Maybe you want to add a printer to the network... Well, with
> a server, add the printer to an SBS system and the next time the
> workstation user logs on, they have access the printer... OR you could go
> around and spend 5 minutes on each computer configuring the printer
> manually... or instruct your users how to do it, I suppose...
>
My current employer leases a very heavy use printer/copier/fax for about
$500/month that serves all employees. If someone ahead of you has a
500-page file printing, the touch screen on the printer allows you to change
the priority of the queue. As for adding the printer, this is a one-time
setup on all computers, so I would just e-mail out the 5-step process for
each person to set up the printer. I see no real advantage here of having a
server.
>>
>>> 3. I've used Gmail for an organization I'm in. I love google... but I
>>> HATE gmail. I've gotten so many important messages flagged as SPAM it's
>>> not funny. Maybe it was a config error on our administrators part, but
>>> I also don't like that I can't create (easily, if at all) sub folders. I
>>> would strongly advise against using the gmail facility at this time (I'm
>>> sure I'm in the minority).
>>>
>> Point taken.
>>
>>> 4. Centralized backup. With Folder redirection, mentioned in #2,
>>> you can backup virtually all user data without concern by backing up
>>> JUST the server. (Your network, ideally, will be setup so that your
>>> users can use ANY workstation (or almost any workstation) and if one
>>> fails, it really won't matter; they can sit at another employee's desk
>>> and pick up right where they left off).
>>>
>> See my response to point #2 above. If someone's computer fails, there
>> will of course be some downtime given the time to reconfigure their
>> computer and retrieve their backup, but that should be somewhat rare.
>
> It should be - until they get infected with malware once a month (or more
> often) because that new employee likes to tweak EVERYTHING and downloads
> software illegally or maybe "stumbles" onto a porno web site with malware
> embedded in it.
>
Maybe I'm underestimating the danger of malware. Isn't Vista supposed to be
much more "resistant" to malware? Can't a good firewall at the router
prevent most types of malware. Again, I do not see how having a server is
the only solution here.
The more frequent backup points are nice, but we're not running a nuclear
reactor here : ). Simply turning back the clock to the previous night's
backup would sufficient for most. If they are working on something crucial,
they should back it up to flash drive throughout the day.
> Otherwise, in general, you are correct. Except that this is dependent
> upon your internet connection to some extent and the recovery time would
> be longer.
>
> Also, how are you backing up the NAS device? What happens if it fails?
> Especially if you end up setting up a significant configuration, this
> could be HOURS of tedious work getting a NAS to replace it.
>
The NAS would also be backed up to Carbonite. Right now, I'm looking at the
Droboshare, which has received widespread praise for it's simplicity and
idiot-proof concept.
http://www.drobo.com/products_droboshare.aspx
>>
>>> 7. Remote access options with SBS include Remote Web Workplace,
>>> Sharepoint, and VPN.
>>>
>> This is a very good point, but with laptops being issued to many
>> employees who travel, and using Gmail for e-mail and calendar features, I
>> see the remote logon being less important. The only thing they'd need
>> remote access to would be the local NAS, which we would probably set up
>> with an FTP or something.
>
> I hope you wouldn't use FTP. That's just inviting people to steal your
> data. FTP is an insecure protocol, user names and passwords are
> transmitted in clear text, meaning anyone who can catch a packet can
> determine how to access your files. This is not exactly difficult for a
> hacker.
Good point. Could we circumvent this risk by using SSL?
>
> What about accounting systems? Or maintenance?
>
>>
>>> I have a few pages you might want to review to get a better
>>> understanding of the SBS product and backup in general. You should also
>>> might want to review the link on Volume Shadow Copy.
>>>
>>> http://www.visualwin.com/VSS/
>>> http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/sbs.asp
>>> http://www.lwcomputing.com/tips/static/backup.asp
>> Thanks very much for taking the time to reply.
>
> Couple of other tips -
>
> Get an account rep with Dell (or some other major vendor - my preference
> is Dell) and for a business, stick to the OptiPlex, Latitude, Workstation,
> and PowerVault lines. These systems are relatively cheap, come with
> excellent warranties, and are GENERALLY highly reliable in my experience.
> EVERYONE can make a lemon... and everyone can make a BATCH of lemons...
> but in my experience, you have very good odds of NOT having too many
> lemons and when you do, getting them repaired quickly, when using Dell.
> (I despise HP - every time I've called their support for ANYTHING I get
> routed to India and get a different, lame suggestion as to how to repair
> something. Again, in my experience, 50/50 chance you hit the Dell India
> support queue... but that's a 50% better chance than you have with HP...
> and you can always call Dell back later.
>
My present employer uses Dell Latitude series and I agree they are very
reliable.
Anthony [MVP]
cheap NAS?
Anthony,
http://www.airdesk.co.uk
"Greg Peterson" <gper a with a circle excite dot com> wrote in message
news:iuGdnaTD_LTc4XDa...@comcast.com...
leew [MVP]
> Thanks again for taking the time to reply. This is exactly the dialogue I
> was hoping for. See my replies below.
>
> "leew [MVP]" <useCont...@LWComputing.dot.com> wrote in message
> news:47edb592$0$5611$607e...@cv.net...
>> Greg Peterson wrote:
>>> Very good points, but allow me to respond....
>> Quick question - what is it this business does? Is it a real estate
>> agency? A sales office? What? I don't need to know EXACT SPECIFIC
>> DETAILS, but I'm being forced to generalize because I know nothing of what
>> the business will do, other than it will have 20-30 users and many with
>> laptops.
>>
> It's a light manufacturing company. About 20 office people (design
> engineers, purchasing, HR, accounting, etc.) and about 8 people in the plant
> (of which only 2 people in shipping & receiving have computers).
>
Earlier, you said that your web site would be receiving minimal traffic,
so it would be hosted elsewhere... see, to me, that's when it makes the
MOST sense for YOU to host it yourself. If your web site were BUSY,
THEN you want it hosted on a reliable system in a data center somewhere
where they have emergency generators and multiple connections to the
internet in case one fails.
Most new businesses don't start out this big. So this isn't new, is it?
Are you just walking into the environment? What do they have now? Or
do they have nothing now (not a single desktop computer?) Are YOU the
business owner? Or just the "trusted IT advisor" who is also an
employee? If so, is your role SOLELY IT/Technical, or are you, for
example, primarily a bookkeeper who is expected to handle the IT needs?
>>> "leew [MVP]" <useCont...@LWComputing.dot.com> wrote in message
>>> news:47ed89c1$0$25019$607e...@cv.net...
>>>> 1. Single Logon. In a domain environment, you can setup your computers
>>>> so that each user has a logon that can be used on ANY computer. When
>>>> they change their password, the change is effective on ALL computers
>>>> that are a member of the domain. In a Workgroup, you must setup a user
>>>> account on EACH computer the user will log on to - or use a common logon
>>>> which means you have no way of tracking who does what.
>>>>
>>> Everyone will have one computer, and there will not be any need to use
>>> one another's computer. So I guess the Single Logon does not matter
>>> here.
>> Sorry, but in my experience, there's always a need, especially when you
>> have 20-30 users. Even for you or your support people.
>
> Still not convinced we'd be using one another's computer. In the 3
> businesses I've worked in (all fairly large companies), I've never been
> asked to use someone else's computer, nor has someone else used mine.
In the small businesses I've worked with, I've had one REALLY small
business find it REALLY great when I told one of the owners when his
computer died he could just sit right down in front of someone else's
computer and log on, having access to everything he needed. He didn't
realize this is how he was setup (even though I know I told both
partners when I set them up this would be one of the advantages).
As I mentioned, there's a cramped office I work with and they can sit
ANYWHERE without issues... if this company grows and there isn't room in
the office for everyone, this may become something of an issue... maybe
not. But without a server, this gets very complicated.
There's no guarantee anyone will ever need to use someone else's
computer... but wouldn't it be nice if you could say to the boss(es) if
and when his/her computer dies, all they need to do is sit down in front
of another and log on and INSTANTLY, without doing anything else, they
will have access to their information?
>
>>>> 2. Centralized Management - you can control system settings on ALL
>>>> systems from one system. For example, SBS will allow you to redirect
>>>> everyone's My Documents and Desktop folders to a folder on the server.
>>>> This is called folder redirection.
>>>>
>>> This is a good point, but what is the purpose of collecting everyone's
>>> "My Documents" and desktop folders? Is it for backup purposes? If so,
>>> why not use an online backup tool for each computer (e.g.
>>> www.carbonite.com). Cost is about $50/year per computer.
>> Ok... $50/computer/year... that's $1000 per year. How much data will you
>> have? How fast will your internet connection be? Folder Redirection is
>> also used when users move around. At one of my clients, they are packed
>> in like sardines and by redirecting their folders, they can sit at ANY
>> unused computer and when they log on, they have complete access to all
>> their files without having to do anything. But that's not the only form
>> of centralized management.
>>
> That's right. $1000/year for safe, secure backup with unlimited storage.
> Regardless of the backup solution, we will pay for a T-1 (to ensure Skype
> has sufficient bandwidth), and do the backups at night. To compare with
> what my present employer does, we paid several thousand $ for a server &
> tape backup system, and pay $750/MONTH for Iron Mountain data storage to
> come onsite every morning to pickup our tapes and store them offsite. You
> can see how $1000/year quickly got my attention.
First, a T1 is NOT fast. It's generally RELIABLE, but it's not fast.
IT's OFTEN the fastest UPLOAD you can get for anything resembling a
reasonable price for a small business, but it's NOT fast. Download
wise, most ISPs I've seen (and this DOES depend where you are based)
offer speeds AT LEAST twice as fast download - even DSL, if you were
close by is up to 6 to 10x faster (DSL 6x, DSL2 10x) and is typically
CHEAPER than a T1. (DSL Upload is USUALLY half T1). Cable can vary
widely. Some cable internet companies max upload at 1 Mb, and have
download speeds anywhere from 1.5 Mb (T1) to 30 Mb. My own cable
internet provider gives my little data center 30 Mb download and 5 Mb
upload for $80/month with almost the same reliability as a T1).
Second, CALLS take more bandwidth than you might think. A VoIP call
TYPICALLY takes 80-100 Kb... that means a MAXIMUM of 15 calls - but when
you factor other traffic in - like people reloading gmail every time
they change a web page and downloading attachments, that could EASILY
drop to 5 to 10 calls... and at peak times, say when two people are
downloading a 5 MB attachment and someone else is downloading something
else that maybe they shouldn't be, you could end up with dropped calls
or call quality that sounds worse than a cell phone with 1 bar of
signal. Most businesses that utilize VoIP will want MORE THAN ENOUGH
bandwidth (like a business your size with a cable internet that has my
capabilities) or a separate connection just for their phones. One
company I'm familiar with will put ONLY 12 calls on a data T1 and they
reserve that bandwidth to ensure data doesn't interfere with the calls.
(A standard voice T1 holds 24 calls).
I don't believe Backup is that black and white either. For example, for
my clients, I recommend using online backup services for CRITICAL data -
like the database that is vital to the company and the accounting data.
Other things typically get backed up to an external hard drive that is
rotated off site once per week to someone's home. Now, this isn't IDEAL
for everyone. It fits my clients. But for clients/companies that face
certain regulatory requirements, it's necessary to use tape and a
company like IRON MOUNTAIN.
Most of my clients pay about $500 for the backup system - 3 external
hard drives with no monthly fees for off-site storage. But again,
backup REALLY needs to be customized (I've HEARD of carbonite,
obviously, but I've not used them nor contacted them. Consider this, if
it really is $50/computer... then what if you ran EVERYTHING off the
server... and JUST backed up the server... for $50. That ALONE would
pay for the server in 3-5 years. (Check this - their licensing may
prohibit it, but I couldn't quickly and easily find anything that said
that).
>
>> I assume you'll be getting Microsoft Office for this company? Or perhaps
>> an Antivirus program? Both office and Antivirus can be deployed using
>> Active Directory. Do you want to go around to each machine and install
>> office manually? Or would you like to copy the source CD to the network,
>> define the package, and then the next time each computer is booted, office
>> and the antivirus program and possible other software is automatically
>> installed. Ok... so you buy office with the computer... fine... what
>> about upgrades?
>>
> Here you bring up a genuine advantage. I can see the pain/time required of
> going around to each machine to do updates. But so far, that seems to be
> one of the few concrete benefits of using a server.
>
>> Do you think you might want to be able to restrict what people do online?
>> Servers can help you do that more effectively and administered all from a
>> remote location. What happens if you have a custom software program that
>> needs an update on each computer... with a small script, you can push that
>> update to everyone's systems with about 20 minutes of work.
>>
> We may need to restrict what they do online, but isn't that possible using a
> fairly sophisticated router? As for the custom software program you asked
> about, so far I foresee us only using over-the-counter software.
To an extent, yes, but sophisticated routers tend to cost far more than
servers.
>
>> Perhaps you'd like to TRY to prevent your systems from getting infected
>> with malware... well, you CAN go to each computer and implement policies
>> manually - or you can setup one or more policies and apply them to all
>> workstations from the server simply by placing the workstation or policy
>> on the appropriate object in Active Directory.
>>
> Another genuine advantage. I'll think this one over, but see my point below
> about malware.
>
>> How about setting up printers? Is everyone going to have their own? That
>> seems like a waste... do you want to know who prints what? Maybe give
>> someone priority so their print jobs ALWAYS print first (bosses usually
>> like that). Maybe you want to add a printer to the network... Well, with
>> a server, add the printer to an SBS system and the next time the
>> workstation user logs on, they have access the printer... OR you could go
>> around and spend 5 minutes on each computer configuring the printer
>> manually... or instruct your users how to do it, I suppose...
>>
> My current employer leases a very heavy use printer/copier/fax for about
> $500/month that serves all employees. If someone ahead of you has a
> 500-page file printing, the touch screen on the printer allows you to change
> the priority of the queue. As for adding the printer, this is a one-time
> setup on all computers, so I would just e-mail out the 5-step process for
> each person to set up the printer. I see no real advantage here of having a
> server.
I really hope you don't have employees like my clients do. Half of them
can follow the instructions... the other half... you'll be helping. And
only ONE printer/copier? It obviously depends on EXACTLY what kind of
printing needs you have, but that cramped company client of mine has 10
printers or varying kings (they do have varying needs), but several are
just plain b&w laser printers and they all get used by MOST people there.
>>>> 3. I've used Gmail for an organization I'm in. I love google... but I
>>>> HATE gmail. I've gotten so many important messages flagged as SPAM it's
>>>> not funny. Maybe it was a config error on our administrators part, but
>>>> I also don't like that I can't create (easily, if at all) sub folders. I
>>>> would strongly advise against using the gmail facility at this time (I'm
>>>> sure I'm in the minority).
>>>>
>>> Point taken.
>>>
>>>> 4. Centralized backup. With Folder redirection, mentioned in #2,
>>>> you can backup virtually all user data without concern by backing up
>>>> JUST the server. (Your network, ideally, will be setup so that your
>>>> users can use ANY workstation (or almost any workstation) and if one
>>>> fails, it really won't matter; they can sit at another employee's desk
>>>> and pick up right where they left off).
>>>>
>>> See my response to point #2 above. If someone's computer fails, there
>>> will of course be some downtime given the time to reconfigure their
>>> computer and retrieve their backup, but that should be somewhat rare.
>> It should be - until they get infected with malware once a month (or more
>> often) because that new employee likes to tweak EVERYTHING and downloads
>> software illegally or maybe "stumbles" onto a porno web site with malware
>> embedded in it.
>>
> Maybe I'm underestimating the danger of malware. Isn't Vista supposed to be
> much more "resistant" to malware? Can't a good firewall at the router
> prevent most types of malware. Again, I do not see how having a server is
> the only solution here.
I'd drop the "much". The "much" is more of a Microsoft word, I feel.
Yes, it's more resistant... but it's still Windows, the #1 target BY FAR
in the world. And nowadays, hackers aren't actually looking for you to
find them. Botnets are prevalent even in MAJOR companies with
supposedly FANTASTIC routers and firewalls and Intrusion Prevention
Systems (IPSs) and Intrusion Detection Systems (IDSs).
Good equipment can protect you better than not-so good equipment. But I
setup a computer at a company slightly bigger than yours (35 people) and
a BRAND NEW SYSTEM, with a nicely configured sonic wall firewall, was
infected within a week so deeply it took me 3 hours to clear out the
infection - probably should have reinstalled (I wanted to learn this
malware, so I billed for 2 hours and spent the early evening figuring
out how to get rid of it) until I finally did. And they were infected
so badly because the user ran with administrator privileges.
Neither are my clients... but it has come in hand more than once... a
few months ago, their accounting file got corrupt... we were able to
step back in blocks of 3 years to find a good one. And just yesterday
we quickly recovered an entire deleted folder off a server from earlier
that morning.
Relying on users to do backups is the best way to lose information. How
often do you backup your system? Even if you're one of the FEW who can
HONESTLY say they backup their home computers often, ask your friends.
Most people don't reliably backup their own important information...
they aren't going to reliably backup yours, even when they are working
on it.
>
>> Otherwise, in general, you are correct. Except that this is dependent
>> upon your internet connection to some extent and the recovery time would
>> be longer.
To put in some perspective, with a T1, your recovery speed - assuming NO
CALLS and NO OTHER INTERNET USE, this is what you get:
Restore:
1 MB 5.3 seconds
10 MB 53 seconds
100 MB 8.9 minutes
1 GB 1 hour 28.9 minutes
10 GB 14.8 Hours
100 GB 6+ DAYS. Imagine if your NAS went down and you ONLY had
Carbonite backups. No data for a week. No Calls, Internet, or e-mail
for a week (or you don't get the data for more than a week).
I'm not sure what exactly your design engineers will be doing, but at
one company I do work for they have a couple of CAD developers and in
less than a year, they've got 3+ GB of data. That alone would be 4.5
hours to restore with your backup plan and internet connection.
>>
>> Also, how are you backing up the NAS device? What happens if it fails?
>> Especially if you end up setting up a significant configuration, this
>> could be HOURS of tedious work getting a NAS to replace it.
>>
> The NAS would also be backed up to Carbonite. Right now, I'm looking at the
> Droboshare, which has received widespread praise for it's simplicity and
> idiot-proof concept.
> http://www.drobo.com/products_droboshare.aspx
Interesting concept - I hadn't heard of them before. BUT, I don't like
using technologies that don't explain how they do things. This device
apparently DOES do redundancy (a REQUIREMENT in my opinion) BUT, it's
not clear how. It does not appear to use a "standard RAID" style of
redundancy so in the unlikely event that more than one drive failed, I'd
be concerned about how you could recover data - even with a data
recovery service. I'd consider it fine for anything not truly critical,
but otherwise, I tend to be more conservative and doubt I'd be using it
in your instance.
>
>>>> 7. Remote access options with SBS include Remote Web Workplace,
>>>> Sharepoint, and VPN.
>>>>
>>> This is a very good point, but with laptops being issued to many
>>> employees who travel, and using Gmail for e-mail and calendar features, I
>>> see the remote logon being less important. The only thing they'd need
>>> remote access to would be the local NAS, which we would probably set up
>>> with an FTP or something.
>> I hope you wouldn't use FTP. That's just inviting people to steal your
>> data. FTP is an insecure protocol, user names and passwords are
>> transmitted in clear text, meaning anyone who can catch a packet can
>> determine how to access your files. This is not exactly difficult for a
>> hacker.
> Good point. Could we circumvent this risk by using SSL?
If you can find appropriate clients that use SSL and can setup that as a
feature on your network. Does the Drobo device support SSL FTP?
SOMETHING has to.
Sharepoint, included free with Windows Server would seem like an ideal
document sharing platform for you.
It seems to me like you're asking "here's my network TODAY, can't this
work TODAY?" and probably... if you accept some of the relatively minor
inconveniences, such as manual software installation and updates. But
are you really believing this company will not grow in the next few
months and years? Are you really believing that the boss (or if that's
you), your important team members won't come to you tomorrow and say
"hey, there's this product that could boost our revenue by 10%... 20%...
or more in the coming months because it will allow us to do XYZ with our
data and better sell." Maybe you're not in a growth industry... but
basically, you're leaving very little room for growth... for IF. IF
this is a completely new business and you spend $5000-7500 now on a
server that is properly implemented, you can save yourself $20,000 later
on the server, plus installation/change/migration costs AND potentially
lost productivity that could cost you FAR more in lost sales or worse,
frustrated customers as your sales/support lines get disrupted. If
you're going to have 30 employees, I can surmise that your company is AT
LEAST generating (or expecting to generate) $1,000,000. We're talking
about IT "back end" costs that will be less than 1% of one year's
revenue but generally last at least 3 years.
Are you going to buy new PCs that max out at 2 GB of RAM because that's
all Vista will NEED? Or are you going to buy new PCs that can have AT
LEAST 4 GB of RAM with the option to expand to more (also meaning you'll
need a 64 bit Operating System). I would HOPE you're not going to go
only with what you need TODAY on the computers and I would hope you
don't box yourself into a network that may work ok today... but tomorrow
you find yourself spending thousands to get a big box.
Here's what I would recommend for you in the way of a Server based on
what you describe:
*Dell PowerEdge 1900 (or 2950 if you have/expect to have a rack)
*Microsoft Small Business Server 2003 R2 with Software Assurance,
providing an automatic upgrade license to SBS 2008 when that arrives.
*SINGLE Quad Core CPU with the lowest GHz rating available (you can
always upgrade later and/or add a second CPU).
*4 GB RAM (max SBS can use)
*2 250 GB hard drives in a Hardware RAID 1 array
*3 500 GB hard drives in a RAID 5 array
*7x24 warranty with 4 hour response
This will be around $3000-4000 without the operating system or tape
backup (and again, backup can be done to external drives, so I wouldn't
be getting a $2000+ tape backup system, unless your in a business with
legal requirements to archive your data OR you have over 500 GB of data).
Add in the OS (Volume license with Software Assurance) and backup
system, and installation by a QUALIFIED individual, and you can expect
this to run you about $6000-8000. BUT, then you don't have to tell
people "we can't do that" or "we can't do that easily because we don't
have a server." Instead, you can do everything you wanted to... AND if
something new comes up, you can do that too with minimal effort.
Couple of other notes related to network security - two products I've
recently seen presented you might want to look at:
*Fortigate products - which combine many of the network security
features discussed above into one box.
*FireEye products - DOUBT you'll be getting one of these because they
are EXPENSIVE, but fascinating in what they do; virtually creating a
network to determine if any activity is suspicious (botnet) activity.
(I saw them present at a local InfraGard meeting in February. They
refused to name names, but they indicated MAJOR companies - financial,
health care, and others, had compromised systems and also explained that
these botnet people are not trying to be found, rather, they will
instruct the software on your system to check once an hour... or even
once a day for other systems to infect... so infrequently everything
else ignores it.
Synapse Syndrome
news:eXNEPgZk...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> What differences are you assuming there are between a cheap server and a
> cheap NAS?
Price is the obvious one, and then ease of maintaining it would be another
consideration, I would have thought.
ss.
Greg Peterson
1. This is not a startup. This is 3-5 people buying an already existing,
25-person company that is losing money. I will be one of the owners,
responsible mainly for the SG&A costs (the other buyers will be overseeing
plant operations and engineering). We have analyzed the company's books and
their SG&A (which includes IT) is excessively high, which is contributing to
their loss. You can tell from my questions that I am not an IT expert.
2. There is not enough money allowed to hire a full time IT person, but
rather we'd have to allocate 50% of a person's time to IT (the other 50%
would be, say, logistics).
3. The website hosting is an afterthought. Virtually none of the business
will be attracted via the website, so whoever can host a plain vanilla
website for $20/year is fine.
4. The stats on the T-1 line are appreciated. When it comes time to
pricing out the data line, we'll consider the bandwidth of the calls and the
data usage (I am sure I can get some real data for the data usage that is
currently happening).
5. The comments on planning for growth are also appreciated. We do intend
to grow the company once the losses are stabilized, and having multiple
sites (even in different US states) would mean good IT / server planning now
will pay off later.
Thanks again.
"leew [MVP]" <useCont...@LWComputing.dot.com> wrote in message
news:47eeab52$0$25038$607e...@cv.net...
Anteaus
stored centrally, and not on disparate hard-disks scattered around the site.
A NAS or a server will provide this.
Where the NAS is a bit limited is in the area of backup. Servers would
normally backup to tape, and would perform this operation out of hours so as
not to cause slowdown, and so as to do the backup when most files are closed.
Other arrangements are possible, but the main point is that you need a
ROTATIONAL backup of your data. A single disk cannot provide this. Possibly a
workstation with a tape drive could do so.
The idea of using external email accounts is reasonable so long as you won't
need to send large attachments between local users. (Which you shouldn't
anyway, if users understand how to use the NAS or fileserver) Though in that
case an onsite mailserver (Exchange, MDaemon, Exim etc.) is best.
Most accounting software requires a simple file-share. This could be a
server or a NAS. A few packages require a database-process running on the
server, and in this case only the specified type of server will do. These are
less common though.
A common misconception is that a server must be specialist hardware, and
cost several $k. Not so. High-end desktop hardware would be perfectly
adequate for a 20-30 user site, using W2003 Server or Linux as the OS. In
fact, there is not much price difference between a decent NAS and a decent
'power' PC plus a couple of additional 500GB SATA disks, and the server is of
course more versatile.
The one case where I would recommend "server-grade" hardware is if you
intend to use SBS. This puts so many services onto one computer, that
anything less than real-muscle hardware will run like treacle.
OS-wise, SBS offers a lot of features for its price. If you don't need all
these features, the standard server-product is much leaner and faster though,
and allows you much more flexibility in how you set it up. As the lwcomputing
page mentions, with SBS it's easy to get yourself into trouble if you indulge
in any kind of customisation. Linux is cheapest but probably best set-up by
an engineer who understands it, as it's far more complex to config.
Security-wise, without a server hosting a Domain, users will have to log-on
locally, and this means that security will most likely be poor. There is
however a third-party add-on which will allow users to log-on centrally to a
NAS or other non-domain server. http://mylogon.net
Hope this helps. My preference would be to build a server using the standard
W2003 package as OS.
leew [MVP]
time. For a business your size that is NOT overly complicated, I would
expect you should be looking at $10,000-20,000 in annual IT support
costs. For 20-22 users and 30 machines, with a QUALIFIED IT Consultant,
that amounts to about 5-12 hours per month of IT support and in my
opinion, if the network is installed properly with little change other
than adding a computer and a user periodically, there should be no real
need for more. One client I have who does commercial construction and
custom cabinetry employs 20 people in the main office and a total of
about 10 in 3 satellite offices of various sizes. Had I charged them my
full $150/hour rate, I believe they would have been billed a total of
roughly $10,000 last year, and that includes an emergency
rebuild/replacement of their server when the old hardware died.
I don't know what the IT costs are or what the EXACT business needs you
have are, but from what I'm understanding, I don't think the IT support
costs should be more than what I stated above. And it'll be a waste in
my opinion to hire a "jack of all trades" person as an employee who has
50% other responsibilities. The GOOD "jack of all trades" people will
not want to do the other 50% of the work. But the GOOD ones can be
hired as consultants and one person handle the MINOR stuff you need
around the office. Stuff like adding a new user when necessary (SBS is
DESIGNED to be day-to-day managed by the NON-Technical person. Though
to be an effective system, you DO need to make sure its setup properly).
Best of luck - I envy you a little... I often find myself picking out
the wastes in business processes and looking towards IT for solutions
that can increase productivity. In some respects, I would love to be in
your position right now.
-Lee
Frankster
> rotated off site once per week to someone's home. Now, this isn't IDEAL
> for everyone. It fits my clients.
Absolutely! I do exactly the same thing with most of my small business
clients.
Often the client had read somewhere about off-site backup over the Internet.
But they don't realize that sending a backup file over the Internet at DSL
upload speeds (reality of 500kbps at best in most cases) is very limiting.
Even with a T-1 at 1.5mbps (theoretical) is very slow. Most seem to have at
least 2 more more Gigabytes to backup daily. I also agree with the full
backup daily for most small businesses so a roll-back to a specific date is
possible. I also usually advise two external drives. One to be taken home
and rotated weekly.
-Frank
JohnB
much other than to say; keep in mind that being frugal up front, in a case
such as this, will most likely cost MORE money in the long term. If you
could somehow magically try both solutions; a NAS box and an SBS server, for
one year - and then make your decision based on those experiences, I don't
think there's any doubt you'd choose the network domain solution over a NAS
solution. The administrative, security and backup advantages are quite
significant IMO.
"Greg Peterson" <gper a with a circle excite dot com> wrote in message
news:iuGdnaTD_LTc4XDa...@comcast.com...
Hurricane Andrew
controlling the environment, users, computers, etc. Centralizing software
distribution. Controlling access to data (in today's world with the risk of
exposing non-personal private info). Auditing.
With the advantages of SBS, there is no reason why any business with 5, let
alone 20-30 users, would want to even consider not running a server to
manage their network.
--
"Hurricane" Andrew
Milford, DE
"JohnB" <jbr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%23cWXIYg...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
KiDFoX
I have 15 years experience with small business IT needs – company
policy forbids me from discussing who I work for right now but it is a
firm that deals exclusively with small business owners who typically
have less than 100 employees.
In general many of the things said here are good reasons to have a
sever however I would suggest you find out form other local business
owners if they know of a good reputable consultant.
What I would look for is someone who will listen to your business
needs, your plans, and learn about your business culture before
recommending a solution. Microsoft Server 2003 SBS might be the right
fit, but it might not. Just because you have a small business does not
mean SBS is the right choice.
The smallest client I have set up on 2003 Standard is 3 seats. If you
only went by the terminology you would think 3 seat client should go
with SBS.
We implement many small businesses every year on Sever 2003 Standard
for example. This is what a consultant can help you determine.
Deciding that the advantages of a server suggest it makes sense for you
is just the first step. finding the right product largely depends on
your needs and cannot be pinned down to marketing terminology.
Microsoft thrives on marketing but it is not what dives a good IT plan.
Looking at Managed IT Services is another option that might be a good
fit. Many can do your backups, maintain your infrastructure and
provide you with email services for less than you might think.
--
KiDFoX
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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leew [MVP]
Generally very good advice. Especially considering there are many IT
people who may be excellent in general but WILL screw up SBS installs
because they are not familiar with it and instead try to manage it like
a standard server.
In my experience, there is very little reason NOT to use SBS in a small
business. There are a few restrictions to it, but the only one that I
can even think of as really having a significant impact on most small
businesses is the lack of ability for trusts with other domains. And
the vast majority of small businesses don't have this need. Considering
the cost of SBS to even use as a plain server is CHEAPER than the cost
of a standard server, especially in a 3 user environment, and the
wizards make administration possible for everyday tasks by company staff
as opposed to consultants only, I would find it unlikely that using
Standard server is a good idea for the vast majority of businesses.
Most often, those I see not wanting to use SBS are under misconceptions,
such as "you can't have any other servers" which is false, or "SBS can
be the only DC" which is false. Finally, with the ability to remove the
SBS restrictions using the transition pack, if a company does eventually
need a feature that is otherwise not available because you are using
SBS, you can basically pay the difference between you SBS discounts and
what you would have paid for standard versions of the same software and
be fine.
I'm not saying it can't happen... but - without naming names - can you
site some examples of instances that did not involve the need for a
trust where you or your employer felt it was better to use standard
instead and why? I'm just curious...
-Lee
Anthony [MVP]
faster processors, RAID, dual power supplies etc or can do without. You can
buy a cheap server if that's what you want, with essentially the same
hardware as a cheap NAS.
They both have to have an operating system. The difference in cost between
an OEM Windows Server license and an OEM OS (possibly also Windows) is going
to be minimal. Of course you could go with a Linux OS and save a little, but
then you either pay for a supported edition or you need to know quite a lot
about it yourself.
Anthony,
http://www.airdesk.co.uk
"Synapse Syndrome" <syn...@NOSPAMsyndrome.me.uk> wrote in message
news:OYqx8Tek...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Kerry Brown
>
> I'm not saying it can't happen... but - without naming names - can you
> site some examples of instances that did not involve the need for a trust
> where you or your employer felt it was better to use standard instead and
> why? I'm just curious...
>
Let me preface this by saying that SBS is a very good solution and what I
normally recommend for small businesses. That said there some shops where it
doesn't fit or isn't needed. I have one customer who runs a call center.
They have two locations with around ten seats in total. They actually have
six servers, none of which is SBS (3 SQL, 1 Terminal, 2 LOB apps). They
don't need or want AD or Exchange. They do need 24/7 up time and no single
point of failure. SBS is great but it doesn't fit every need :-)
--
Kerry Brown
MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/
kj [SBS MVP]
> Cheap hardware is really about whether you want things like fast
> disks, faster processors, RAID, dual power supplies etc or can do
> without. You can buy a cheap server if that's what you want, with
> essentially the same hardware as a cheap NAS.
> They both have to have an operating system. The difference in cost
> between an OEM Windows Server license and an OEM OS (possibly also
> Windows) is going to be minimal. Of course you could go with a Linux
> OS and save a little, but then you either pay for a supported edition
> or you need to know quite a lot about it yourself.
> Anthony,
> http://www.airdesk.co.uk
Individuals can locate MS partners (Windows Server System, category Windows
Small Business Server 2003) with the SBSC certfication in their area for
starters. Still need to interview these providers *and* ask for references!
https://solutionfinder.microsoft.com/
One note on the cheap hardware and OEM licesensing. OEM licenses can not be
moved to more capable hardware later on. If you're going to start out on the
cheap, then get retail licesnes or Volume licenses so you can move it to a
beefy server later. Or, just start out right and size the server for your
expected needs. With SBS, it doesn't pay to skimp on the server that runs
all your infrastructure functions.
...and SBS is an ideal solution for 5-50 users with light technical
administration abilities but with a business that has enterprise class
technology needs.
>
>
>
> "Synapse Syndrome" <syn...@NOSPAMsyndrome.me.uk> wrote in message
> news:OYqx8Tek...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> "Anthony [MVP]" <ant...@no-reply.com> wrote in message
>> news:eXNEPgZk...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> What differences are you assuming there are between a cheap server
>>> and a cheap NAS?
>>
>>
>> Price is the obvious one, and then ease of maintaining it would be
>> another consideration, I would have thought.
>>
>> ss.
--
/kj