WOW... So Microsoft just **killed** CodeJock, BCGSoft, etc.
Somebody
"people care about". IE look & feel, Office 2003 look & feel, Office 2007
ribbon look & feel, Visual Studio smart docking, etc.
I guess on one hand Microsoft needed to do this to keep MFC alive [like it
was even alive :( ], but they also killed several companies in the process.
I work on a private UI library similiar to CodeJock, BCGSoft, so I'm pretty
much killed by this MFC update as well.
This *sucks*... 10yrs of my life I'll never get back working on my GUI
library.
No word on what the dependencies will be, but from the sound of things, the
worse dependency will be GDI+.
This news is exactly why I hate programming :(.
Somebody
news:l9oZi.969$kl7...@newsfe21.lga...
Oh wait, I just read they are actually *USING* BCGSoft, not rewriting
anything. Still kind of retarded and still kills all 3rd party companies
(except BCGSoft I suppose).
Alexander Grigoriev
media player - competitors with their lame Real Player cry; but if MS would
not include one or include some lame one - people would ridicule Windows for
it. MS adds visual candies to IE or MS office, while not providing the same
in SDK - people complain about unfair advantage; MS documents and supports
them - people complain it's killing them... You can't please everybody.
"Somebody" <some...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:l9oZi.969$kl7...@newsfe21.lga...
Somebody
"Alexander Grigoriev" <al...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%233qtVe9...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Somebody will always complain about whatever MS does or not. MS includes a
> media player - competitors with their lame Real Player cry; but if MS
> would not include one or include some lame one - people would ridicule
> Windows for it. MS adds visual candies to IE or MS office, while not
> providing the same in SDK - people complain about unfair advantage; MS
> documents and supports them - people complain it's killing them... You
> can't please everybody.
Fair enough. RealPlayer was bigger then MediaPlayer for a while. Then
RealPlayer refused to add support for popular formats while MediaPlayer
happily added them. So buh-bye RealPlayer.
Honestly, I will continue to use my own GUI library for the time being even
though the BCG one and the CodeJock one have more "stuff" at this point in
time because:
1) I see the current BCG product as very buggy with no attention to detail
(nice GUIs require a lot of attention to detail). The Office team has
tremendous attention to detail when it comes to GUIs where as the Visual
Studio team has very *poor* attention to detail when it comes to GUIs.
2) GUIs, new controls, bug fixes, etc. require fast turn around. BCGSoft and
CodeJock as small companies have quick turn around. For example, both had
Ribbon controls before Office 2007 was even out. BCGSoft as a branch of MFC
code will have a 1 to 2 yr turn around and likely zero opportunity to
release bug fixes for the "MFC branch" (seeing as they don't release MFC
fixes between releases).
3) I hope this integration doesn't ruin MFC. The benefit of MFC was my app +
a few DLLs < 5MBs was all I needed. BCGSoft is a 20MB+ behemoth.
The *ONLY* way I see this working is if the BCG lib is NOT tightly
integrated into MFC and in a DLL off on its own. That way it doesn't bloat
the MFC DLLs, I don't need to use it if I don't want to and BCG can update
it more easily.
Dan Bloomquist
> An update to MFC in early 2008 will include all the UI functionality that
> "people care about". IE look & feel, Office 2003 look & feel, Office 2007
> ribbon look & feel, Visual Studio smart docking, etc.
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/vcblog/
Wow. Now I'm in. I've already compiled and run our app under 2008 beta
on vista just to see what I'd be dealing with. But I wasn't ready to
commit till now. I do like that the compiler/runtime checks are so much
stricter. It took me an couple of hours to run and I'm figuring a day or
so more to get rid of all the warnings and runtime checks. I'm 2003,
skipped 2005. We gave up on 98 for this next release anyway.
I am glad MS is supporting native so well again...
Best, Dan.
Daniel James
> Oh wait, I just read they are actually *USING* BCGSoft, not rewriting
> anything.
That's the worst part of the news, really. Microsoft invented the ribbon
as a GUI metaphor, and now they're licensing some (apparently not very
good, from what I read in this group) thord-party implementation of it
to ship to their developer customers.
I really don't mind Microsoft driving the other guys out of business if
they do it by distributing *better* software, but they can't just
license a cut-down version of an existing 3rd-party product that is
demonstrably less good than the code they use themselves and claim to be
doing the users (us developers) any kind of service.
--
Cheers,
Daniel.
Somebody
>> anything.
>
> That's the worst part of the news, really. Microsoft invented the ribbon
> as a GUI metaphor, and now they're licensing some (apparently not very
> good, from what I read in this group) thord-party implementation of it
Yup. BCG is horrid. There are other 3rd party libs that are much better. I
think MS just got a deal with BCG that the other vendors were unwilling to
do (ie, give it to MS for pretty much free). You can easily find tons of
drawing bugs in the BCG lib. Drawing bugs are kind of a no-no in a GUI
library LMAO.
Microsoft *says* they are fixing performance & drawing bugs, but in the same
blog, they also say it "works great as is". So I wouldn't expect much.
Sam Hobbs
Microsoft developed Internet Explorer because IE and realted software denied
Netscape millions, maybe billions of dollars. IBM was disappointed that
Microsoft developed NT instead of Microsoft keeping their agreement to
cooperate in the development of OS/2.
I am not sure, but I think that the Windows GDI is nearly the same as IBM's
GDDM for their mainframes. Probably Microsoft's Rich Text Format is nearly
the same as IBM's Revisable Form Text.
Microsoft did not like the way that Sun owns and controls Java so Microsoft
designed the CLR and the C# langauge.
That's business.
"Somebody" <some...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:l9oZi.969$kl7...@newsfe21.lga...
Giovanni Dicanio
"Sam Hobbs" <sam...@social.rr.com_change_social_to_socal> ha scritto nel
messaggio news:eE4Io$QJIH...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Microsoft did not like the way that Sun owns and controls Java so
> Microsoft designed the CLR and the C# langauge.
And Thank you Microsoft, because IMHO the quality of C# and .NET is superior
to that of Java.
Giovanni
BobF
"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanni...@invalid.it> wrote in message
news:um7C7bUJ...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
> "Sam Hobbs" <sam...@social.rr.com_change_social_to_socal> ha scritto nel
> messaggio news:eE4Io$QJIH...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
>> Microsoft did not like the way that Sun owns and controls Java so
>> Microsoft designed the CLR and the C# langauge.
Not really. They did it to renew revenue opportunities.
>
> And Thank you Microsoft, because IMHO the quality of C# and .NET is
> superior to that of Java.
>
Really? How come I've never had a java app take as long as VS2005 to
populate a directory list when opening a file?
Giovanni Dicanio
"BobF" <rNfOrS...@charter.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:OJ6gueUJ...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Really? How come I've never had a java app take as long as VS2005 to
> populate a directory list when opening a file?
I think that VS2005 is written mainly in C++, not in C#/.NET :)
This of course makes things worse :)
I don't like the performance of VS2005 at all, in fact I use the great VC6
and sometimes also VC7.1 (which seems to me faster than VS2005 kind of
resource-hog, but not as good as VC6, the best Microsoft IDE for Visual C++
in history!).
However, it seems that Microsoft paid more attention to performance in
VS2008, and exspecially also for next version. I hope (VS2008)+1 will be
top-quality like VC6 for C++ native programming!
Giovanni
Rene Pilon
>
> This of course makes things worse :)
So you're saying that if it had been up to you - you would have written the
compiler and linker using C# ....?!?
Giovanni Dicanio
"Rene Pilon" <rsp...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:uHZ2oxV...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
No! I'm saying that IMHO it is bad that a C++ native app is performing worse
than a Java app.
Giovanni
Giovanni Dicanio
"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanni...@invalid.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:ugFQbKWJ...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
In fact, I replied to BobF, who wrote:
<quote>
GD: > And Thank you Microsoft, because IMHO the quality of C# and .NET is
GD: > superior to that of Java.
BF: Really? How come I've never had a java app take as long as VS2005 to
BF: populate a directory list when opening a file?
</quote>
Giovanni
Tom Serface
a point. We used to say "write on one system, debug on many" because there
were differences in the JRE's, but overall I think if Java could have gotten
support from Microsoft it would have been a hit. I think .NET is nice, but
it is still really restricted to Windows and I don't see the Mac guys really
accepting the Mono idea too much.
Tom
"BobF" <rNfOrS...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:OJ6gueUJ...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Tom Serface
Vista's fault of VS, but it often just goes into "Not responding" mode for a
couple of minutes when I try to open a file. It doesn't keep me from
working, but it is annoying and it never did that on any previous version or
before I was using Vista. I can't imagine what is happening that would take
that long to open a file so my guess is that it is trying to access
something on the internet or in SourceSafe that is just not responding.
Tom
"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanni...@invalid.it> wrote in message
news:ugFQbKWJ...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Bo Persson
:: I've done my share of Java programming, and it lives up to it's
:: promise to a point. We used to say "write on one system, debug on
:: many" because there were differences in the JRE's, but overall I
:: think if Java could have gotten support from Microsoft it would
:: have been a hit. I think .NET is nice, but it is still really
:: restricted to Windows and I don't see the Mac guys really
:: accepting the Mono idea too much.
A problem with Mono is that it is .NET 1.1 compatible, working on ver
2.0.
Later this month MS will be at ver 3.5. Where is the portability?
Bo Persson
Tom Serface
MFC. Hopefully, we'll get to the point where it's lucrative enough to be
caught up so that the CLR's for Mac, Unix, and Windows can all be released
reasonably together. Then I think it can live up to it's real promise.
Until then, it's just a Windows RAD programming environment.
Tom
"Bo Persson" <b...@gmb.dk> wrote in message
news:5ps3ruF...@mid.individual.net...
Sam Hobbs
the file is a source code file then that would explain the delay.
"Tom Serface" <tom.n...@camaswood.com> wrote in message
news:D0764981-D8B5-42B1...@microsoft.com...
Somebody
news:%23Gpyxja...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> It might be updating intellisense; if your processor is relatively slow
> and the file is a source code file then that would explain the delay.
Visual Studio just doesn't have very good performance. Its generally fine if
you have smaller projects, but once you start throwing multi-project
solutions with hundreds of files, it slows to a crawl. My project at work
takes about 1 minute to load and it is a fraction of the entire product.
Tom Serface
projects in each. I think Vista has caused it to run slower though since I
my perception is that it has gotten slower since upgrading to the new OS.
Hard to tell. It's just annoying when it goes on vacation and all I can do
is wait. Of course, that gives me time to check the newsgroups.
Tom
"Somebody" <some...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:4Xa_i.1817$kl7...@newsfe21.lga...
Tom Serface
fast hard drive. I think there is a rogue device driver somewhere. I think
I may reload the beast one of these days. It does update intellisense at
annoying times, but it usually announces that fact with a status bar
message.
Tom
"Sam Hobbs" <sam...@social.rr.com_change_social_to_socal> wrote in message
news:%23Gpyxja...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Somebody
> Well, I have a dual XEON 3GHz Intel Motherboard with 3GB of RAM and a
> pretty fast hard drive. I think there is a rogue device driver somewhere.
> I think I may reload the beast one of these days. It does update
> intellisense at annoying times, but it usually announces that fact with a
> status bar message.
>
> Tom
Tom, I just read on the VC blog that MS will be (or already has) released a
patch to address the performance issues. Haven't tried it yet though.
http://blogs.msdn.com/vcblog/archive/2007/11/12/performance-improvements-in-visual-c.aspx
BobF
Good find. I'm going to try it today
BobF
Good news! This hotfix appears to have solved the "slow opening" problem
when adding existing files to a project!!
Tom Serface
refresher to the link. Downloading now.
Tom
"Somebody" <some...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:iYc_i.3427$jd3....@newsfe19.lga...
Pete Delgado
> I've done my share of Java programming, and it lives up to it's promise to
> a point. We used to say "write on one system, debug on many" because there
> were differences in the JRE's, but overall I think if Java could have
> gotten support from Microsoft it would have been a hit.
Given the numbers of applications and developers that use Java, I think that
it's safe to say that it has indeed been a "hit". Expecting the mindshare
of Java to continue to expand is unreasonable though because newer languages
come out that address the shortcomings of the language and runtime to
address the latest set of problems.
-Pete
Mark Salsbery [MVP]
How did the hotfix work out for you?
I work on a dual Xeon 3.2GHz box similar to yours and I've never had VS2005
stop responding like that....
Does the status bar say anything?
I'm full time on VS2008 RC1 so I'm just curious how the hotfix goes, so I
can pass it on to others that ask :)
Thanks!
Mark
--
Mark Salsbery
Microsoft MVP - Visual C++
"Tom Serface" <tom.n...@camaswood.com> wrote in message
news:B5D1F80D-F4CA-4CCA...@microsoft.com...
Tom Serface
The hot fix didn't change anything. I think I'm going to try reinstalling.
It happens at odd times like when just opening a simple .cpp or .h file. I
probably should just start using 2008 as well as I haven't seen the problem
with that one. My problem is syncing up with the rest of my dev team. When
we went from 2005 to 2005 SP1 we couldn't use any of the DLLs from one with
something compiled from the other without recompiling the whole mess back
and forth. That was really annoying :o)
Tom
"Mark Salsbery [MVP]" <MarkSalsbery[MVP]@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
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