Really annoying problem with dialog editor

Josh Gibbs

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Jun 1, 2003, 6:05:07 PM6/1/03

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Using Visual C++.net 2002.

I'm building a bunch of edit boxes for a program
with dialogs, and the process of doing this is:

* Add new resource - Dialog
* Title and ID the dialog
* Add controls - (example: a static text, a check box & an edit box)
* Give the controls new IDs
* Turn around and take a mouthful of coffee
* Title of dialog has changed to 'Static'

What gives? Why do my dialogs keep changing their
titles? This is frustrating. A couple of times I
haven't noticed this and the code has gone out with
dialogs titled 'Static'. This is just another thing
I have to add to my growing list of 'watch out fors'.

Additionally, do Microsoft actually do anything
about these bugs, or is this forum just a place
to vent frustrations, because in the past, none
of my reported problems have been resolved, they've
just been 'confirmed as a bug and we are looking
into it'.

Josh Gibbs

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Jun 1, 2003, 8:45:46 PM6/1/03

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Additionally to this, it seems that it happens after
doing tab ordering. It appears that whatever control
is currently selected reverts to it's default settigs
on escaping out of tab ordering.

Bob Moore

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Jun 2, 2003, 6:54:20 PM6/2/03

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On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 10:05:07 +1200, Josh Gibbs wrote:

>What gives? Why do my dialogs keep changing their
>titles? This is frustrating.

There are some bugs in the resource editor of VS.Net. I've been caught
with resources just "vanishing" after I've created them, and have
heard of others with similar problems. The problems I've seen are
intermittent, so you can't repro them on demand. Perhaps you are lucky
enough to have found a reproducable error.

This, in addition to the very poor quality of the IDE, led me to one
conclusion : I don't use VS.Net for production work. I have VS 2003 at
home for evaluation, but we don't use that for production work either,
the original VS.Net left us with such a bad taste in our mouths that
we don't use this one either.

We have stuck with VC6 for production work. I suggest you do the same.

Some people consider this an extreme view - I take the position that
it's a very conservative one. I can't afford to pay the price for
Microsoft's mistakes.

--
Bob Moore [WinSDK MVP]
http://www.mooremvp.freeserve.co.uk/
(this is a non-commercial site and does not accept advertising)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do not reply via email unless specifically requested to do so.
Unsolicited email is NOT welcome and will go unanswered.
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Josh Gibbs

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Jun 2, 2003, 8:42:10 PM6/2/03

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I would love to have used VC6. When I 'invested' in VS.net I was
upgrading from VC5, and actually wanted VC6. But our buddies from
Redmond didn't have that version available anymore, so I took the
plunge thinking that I might as well jump to the 'modern' version
now and save a few version jumps. Now that everything has been
revved into VS.net, going backwards (if that were indeed possible)
would be a resource-recreation nightmare.

So what do you do? Stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard
place. I've already paid the price I can't afford for this cr@p
and if only they fixed their mistakes like the rest of us do I
might be happy.

Bob Moore

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Jun 3, 2003, 2:49:28 PM6/3/03

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On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 12:42:10 +1200, Josh Gibbs wrote:

>So what do you do?

In your position I think I'd scan Ebay to see if I can find a boxed
copy of VC6 for sale.

If you have a high-level MSDN subscription lying around the company,
that wil have VC6 in it. Since you've paid for the VS.net anyway,
no-one would begrudge you using that.

It's a real shame : the VS.Net C++ compiler is pretty good. It's just
well hidden behind an unusable and buggy IDE.

Nick Savoiu

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Jun 3, 2003, 4:22:04 PM6/3/03

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> It's a real shame : the VS.Net C++ compiler is pretty good. It's just
> well hidden behind an unusable and buggy IDE.

Hear, hear! The compiler is very good and definitely a step forward, I like,
in particular, the "almost" ANSI C++ compliance and whole program
optimization. But the IDE has been a step back. Some things seem to have
been changed just for the sake of change.

Try this:

1. Create an empty C++ console project
2. Add a .cpp file containing:

int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
while(true);
return 0;
}

3. Build and run it from the IDE.
4. You should now have a console window on top of your IDE. If you can't see
the 'Stop Debugging' toolbar button move the console window around.
5. Now try stopping the program by clicking 'Stop Debugging'.

I can't seem to stop it without having to click twice. Once for the IDE to
get to the front, one to actually press the toolbar button. VS6 used to do
it in one swift click!

And there are many other pet peeves :(

Nick

PS. MS, Is there any official place where we can submit suggestions/requests
for IDE changes?

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

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Jun 5, 2003, 9:21:01 PM6/5/03

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>And there are many other pet peeves :(
>

>PS. MS, Is there any official place where we can submit
suggestions/requests
>for IDE changes?
>

This newsgroup (or microsoft.public.vstudio.general) is a pretty good place
to do it - people from the VS team (like myself) read it and enter work
items/bugs for appropriate subteams. It really helps if you supply a
detailed repro case for your problem.
We have work to do, so it may not look like we're very responsive, but we
do read this newsgroup. I've entered both items from this thread, btw. If
you have more suggestions, please post them.

thanks,
Lukasz

Nick Savoiu

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Jun 5, 2003, 10:59:52 PM6/5/03

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> We have work to do, so it may not look like we're very responsive, but we
> do read this newsgroup. I've entered both items from this thread, btw. If
> you have more suggestions, please post them.

Well, while were at it... can you bring back VS6 functionality? When I press
F3 and the text I'm searching for is now found I get "The specified text was
not found." Can the message box show the text being searched for?

Thanks,
Nick

Nick Savoiu

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Jun 5, 2003, 11:28:34 PM6/5/03

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"Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]" <luk...@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:$Rlwln8K...@cpmsftngxa06.phx.gbl...

> This newsgroup (or microsoft.public.vstudio.general) is a pretty good
place
> to do it - people from the VS team (like myself) read it and enter work
> items/bugs for appropriate subteams. It really helps if you supply a
> detailed repro case for your problem.

Could we get a separate microsoft.public.vstudio.bugs_n_wishes? I feel that
such postings get lost in the sheer volume of other postings.

Nick

Josh Gibbs

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Jun 6, 2003, 12:50:11 AM6/6/03

to

That's all very well, but when would we see the fruits of
our frustrated outcrys? I paid $4500 for this product, and
only because I was told that I couldn't get VC6. The reason
I needed it was because my VC5 cd went missing, and the
PC it was on had an HDD crash (which is when I went
looking for the CD).

There were a few nice features that I'd seen in VC6 that I
really liked which is why I just decided to bite the bullet and
upgrade. But to my dismay, I couldn't get VC6, and so I
was essentially forced to go to VC.NET (I guess I could have
become a bus driver instead, but that's really not my calling).

So here I was, lumped with what I expected to be a leap
ahead again on VC6. I at least expected it to have those
nice features that I already knew and loved.

But no, not only did it not have many of the simplest things
that a C++ GUI developer needs and has come to rely upon,
but VC.NET actually has those good things removed, in what
appears to be an attempt to combine the GUI of VC and VB-
of which many things just simply aren't useful, and at times for
me, counter-productive.

I spent many hours and days converting my code, learning
the 'new way' of doing the majority of the things I previously
could do, and infuriatingly scouring manuals, these forums and
various other sources on the net only to find other things I
used to be able to do are no longer available and I have to
work around them with cumbersome methods.

So not only did it cost me the paltry $4500, it has also cost me
a lot of downtime just to get up to the point where I can continue
getting my code working again, and it has cost my customers
and myself time repairing problems that have been introduced
by the results of the new software.

This is my work, this is how I make a living, and to be made
so inefficient is enough to make me quite annoyed.

So as I started this rather lengthy rant, is there any point in
asking for fixes, or might we just as well yell it into the grand
canyon so we at least get some familiar reply.

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

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Jun 6, 2003, 11:11:01 AM6/6/03

to

>Well, while were at it... can you bring back VS6 functionality? When I
press
>F3 and the text I'm searching for is now found I get "The specified text
was
>not found." Can the message box show the text being searched for?
>
>Thanks,
>Nick
>

OK, this one's entered, thanks. I'll see if we can get a bugs&requests
newsgroup.

thanks,
Lukasz

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

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Jun 6, 2003, 11:49:21 AM6/6/03

to

As you know, VS.NET is not built on top of VC++ IDE, and therefore some
features are implemented in a different way. Some things are very personal,
but if you can tell us what exactly it is that you hate in VS.NET/had in
VC5/6 that you really liked and is gone in VS.NET/think it would be good to
have in VS.NET or anything else, it would help, and I or someone else will
forward it to the appropriate (VC++ or IDE) team.

thanks,
Lukasz

--------------------
>Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2003 16:50:11 +1200
>From: Josh Gibbs <jgi...@imailds.com>
>Subject: Re: IDE Woes (WAS: Re: Really annoying problem with dialog editor)

Nick Savoiu

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Jun 6, 2003, 12:44:19 PM6/6/03

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One more! Didn't know what a can of worms you've opened? :)

Can the toolbars and menubar be dockable on a single line (a la Internet
Explorer). Right now no toolbar can share the same horizontal band as the
menubar.

Thanks,
Nick

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

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Jun 6, 2003, 2:28:19 PM6/6/03

to

>From: "Nick Savoiu" <sav...@ics.uci.edu>

>Subject: Re: IDE Woes (WAS: Re: Really annoying problem with dialog editor)

>Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:39:11 -0700

>1. Can a 'Do no show this again' checkbox be added to dialog boxes such as
>the one that says 'These project configuration(s) are out of date: .....
>Would you like to build them?'. I find it an unnecessary click/keypress
when
>trying to run something.
>

Actually, I'm the dev responsible for this area now, and yes, it will most
likely be done for the next version - this way or another. We'll also work
on other annoying windows that appear without a way to turn them off.

>2. A space saving suggestion.
>
>Image1.gif has the current implementation. It takes up quite a bit of
>desktop 'real estate' without much return for the investment. Notice for
>example the duplicated 'Output' info. Image2.gif is a suggested alternative
>or even return to having separate tabs for Build/Debug/SourceControl.
>

Entered this one for the IDE team.

>Can the toolbars and menubar be dockable on a single line (a la Internet
>Explorer). Right now no toolbar can share the same horizontal band as the
>menubar.

This one's probably going to be hard, since we use Office components to
handle this stuff for us, and I don't think they support this. I entered it
anyway, but my guess is it's not likely to happen any time soon.

>One more! Didn't know what a can of worms you've opened? :)

hey, the more input from real users, the better :)

thanks,
Lukasz

Nick Savoiu

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Jun 6, 2003, 5:45:09 PM6/6/03

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"Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]" <luk...@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:ZeJlslFL...@cpmsftngxa06.phx.gbl...

> >From: "Nick Savoiu" <sav...@ics.uci.edu>
> >Subject: Re: IDE Woes (WAS: Re: Really annoying problem with dialog
editor)
> >Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:39:11 -0700
>
> >1. Can a 'Do no show this again' checkbox be added to dialog boxes such
as
> >the one that says 'These project configuration(s) are out of date: .....
> >Would you like to build them?'. I find it an unnecessary click/keypress
> when
> >trying to run something.
> >
>
> Actually, I'm the dev responsible for this area now, and yes, it will most
> likely be done for the next version - this way or another. We'll also work
> on other annoying windows that appear without a way to turn them off.

Good :) I hope you're also considering the "There are build errors.
Continue?" dialog box.

> >Can the toolbars and menubar be dockable on a single line (a la Internet
> >Explorer). Right now no toolbar can share the same horizontal band as the
> >menubar.
>
> This one's probably going to be hard, since we use Office components to
> handle this stuff for us, and I don't think they support this. I entered
it
> anyway, but my guess is it's not likely to happen any time soon.

Well, maybe we can give the Office guys a nudge :) I wouldn't mind seeing
this feature in Office either :)

Nick

Josh Gibbs

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Jun 6, 2003, 6:07:35 PM6/6/03

to

Where do I start? What kind of timeframe would we expect
for any of our requests to be fulfilled? It's all very
well knowing you are reading this, but I could just as well
tell my customers that I've noted their concerns and will
ponder them this afternoon while I'm fishing. All very
fuzzy-wuzzy but it doesn't solve anything, and gives no
indication of how long we have to suffer, so do we go on
blindly praying for the gods of Microsoft to have a second
coming, or is their some reality in all of this? It really
is getting to the point that I'm thinking, "screw this, time
to start shifting to the linux world". Because the development
environment has changed so drastically, and is so full of
little bugs, the time wasted on MS products might well be better
spent learning the new upcoming operating systems and their
development tools. I recall a statement from MS some time
ago about the linux threat that said something along the lines
of "No we are not worried, because it's a free platform, and
free software is not supported". Well the irony here has been
that for all of my requests about VS.NET it should have been
free as well given the level of actual support that is provided.

I don't want counselling for my IDE woes, I want value for
my money like was advertised.

/rant off

Now, off the top of my head, here is a list of things that
come to mind that disappeared or were modified for worse
since VC5:

* Dialog editor grid. All of my dialogs are standardized
on a particular setup in the dialog editor for positioning
controls. VS.NET doesn't retain the editor settings, so
every time I restart I must setup the guide settings.

* CTRL-W. Getting to the overrides of a dialog is a royal
pain in the posterior. In VC5 hitting CTRL-W brought up the
class info in the context of the dialog. VS.NET has a
convoluted way of doing this that is simply counter-productive
in a project with many many files (like several of mine). It
requires either hunting through the file or class list for the
dialog that is being worked on. Even if CTRL-Shift-C brought
up the class list and highlighted the dialog class being worked
on that would be a start to getting back to the functionality
we had before.

* Dialog editor selecting. I HATE the MSAccess form editor,
but it seems the one thing that I really didn't like I now
have in VS.NET VC5/6 selected items that were bound by the
selection box which made selecting items within bounding group
boxes easy. Now I have a nightmare of clicks and shift clicks
to highlight only the things I want. This is exceptionally
trick when I'm away working on my laptop with it's touch pad.

* Toolbox. Get rid of that god-awful outlook button control!
I understand the reason behind the shareable control, which was
custom built for us C developers in VC5/6 and was brilliant, but
in the (successful) attempt to retrograde VC, we now have to put
up with a VB style box. But not only that, it was take a step
further and now we have to scroll through the list without a
scrollbar! Do you guys really think that EVERYONE uses outlook?
I had no clue how this list worked until a colleague built a
control for one of our front ends with one of these controls.
It's like saying elevators look garish, we need that funky
wooden stair look instead in a 30 storey building. Backwards
step for the sake of looks.

* Toggle for windows. Although VC5 wasn't perfect, it was
certainly easier to keep clutter off the IDE. The output window
was but an 'esc' key away from being removed from the screen.
Now, not only can I not 'esc' it away, but the close button has
been reduced to the point that advanced l33t skillz need to be
used to close it - especially when on my laptop with my big
fat fingers. I would LOVE to see all the windows like solution
explorer, class view, output etc be toggled on/off because I only
need to see them when I need to open a file, find a class member
function, open a resource etc. VS.NET seems to be 'mouse-centric'
which really wastes time for a developer that, quite frankly, has
the nowse to figure out hot-keys. We aren't your typical occasional
letter writer who fumbles around the program with the mouse to find
out how to bold some text. Developers want the quickest and most
convenient way to achieve a task, and hotkeys go 99% of the way
to achieving that end.

* Changing the ID of a control in a dialog. Double click by
mistake and the ID is history - no undo to boot. I also frequently
used to double click the dialog control ID in the dialog editor to
copy the ID for use in code. Now I have to be sooooo careful to
click once to bring the properties box to the top, wait for the dbl-
click time to expire and then drag select. WHAT A PAIN. THIS SUX
A BIG RED SUCKINESS THING!

I think that's a good start, and I would dearly love to get some
of this functionality back - especially as no one will trade in my
VS.NET for VC6 (let alone sell it to me at all).

* Also, a wish of mine is to be able to load a file via a command
line call to VS. I use several compilers, and at the moment
several code editors because VS can't be invoked from a
cmdline call from my compilers. I am using free editors for now
because I don't want to go paying over and over for something
that I should expect in the most expensive version of them all.
That, and I have to setup each editor as best it can be to have
the same hotkeys etc to make life as easy as possible.

Nick Savoiu

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Jun 6, 2003, 7:25:36 PM6/6/03

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One more suggestion:

For debugging we have: StepOver, StepInto, StepOut. How about of a new
button: StepIntoEval.

The difference you say?

Let's assume the following line of code is the current execution point:

someFun(someOtherFun(param1),anotherFun(param1));

Currently StepInto does the following: goes into someOtherFun() or
anotherFun(). One has to step out of those and try StepInto again sometimes
repeating these steps a few times.

Now here comes relief: StepIntoEval. Tada! Instead of taking you into
functions evaluating the parameters it quietly evaluates all the parameters
then steps into someFun().

What do you think?

Nick

Josh Gibbs

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Jun 6, 2003, 7:34:17 PM6/6/03

to

I think this suggestion rocks, especially when
MFC opens up a swathe of it's source code if
it's installed.

Josh Gibbs

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Jun 7, 2003, 12:12:58 AM6/7/03

to

Add to that...

When multiselecting items in a dialog and dragging
them somewhere, the highlighted object in the group
doesn't seem to be the one that the coords are taken
off. I was just repositioning a bunch of controls to
squeeze one in the middle, and I couldn't just drag
the controls to the known point because the coords
were coming from some other item in the group.

Josh Gibbs

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Jun 7, 2003, 12:22:55 AM6/7/03

to

And...

In VC5, if I hit CTRL-W on, say, an edit control that has
a member variable assigned to it, it would show me what
that variable is.

In VC.net I have to remember this. Not only is this tricky
to do in very large projects, it's especially hard on projects
that you come back to months later.

(can you tell I'm at the office right now)

Josh Gibbs

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Jun 7, 2003, 12:33:23 AM6/7/03

to

I can't delete a variable! I just assigned an edit control a
member variable of type CString, but realised I need it
to be a controlled int. No delete variable option, it has
to be done by hand?

Tell me I'm missing something please.

Is this really the process I have to go through to delete
a variable that is wrongly assigned:

1/ Find and open the source files (.h & .cpp) for the dialog class
2/ Remember, then search for the wrongly assigned variable
throughout those two files and remove the refereces.
3/ Go back to the dialog and reassign the new variable.

And this is "dramatically increasing developer productivity" in
what way. Bwahahahaa ahahaah - Oh dear, I just fell of my chair.

Can you sense the frustration. Maybe this refers to being
more productive than someone trying to develop applications
with MS Works 3.0.

Bob Moore

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Jun 7, 2003, 7:52:00 AM6/7/03

to

On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:28:19 GMT, Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT] wrote:

>Actually, I'm the dev responsible for this area now, and yes, it will most
>likely be done for the next version - this way or another. We'll also work
>on other annoying windows that appear without a way to turn them off.

You BADLY need to talk to Joe Newcomer (newc...@flounder.com). He
compiled a list of the more egregious stupidities in the VS IDE when
he went up to Redmond for the MVP summit. He's got all of mine and lot
more besides.

We don't VS.Net for work projects. The IDE is unusable, the resource
editor too buggy to be trusted (yes, I've lost work to its bugs,and I
know others who have too). We bought the damn thing and it lies in a
desk drawer, untouched. Waste of money.

Martin Slater

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Jun 8, 2003, 8:35:31 PM6/8/03

to

f4 - goto to next error - what happended to this ??
f7 compile current active project, Still haven't figured out how to use the
old workspace / project paradigm in .net. I probably just haven't put enough
time into it but i want to be able to have multiple projects in the
workspace ala vc6 select one and only be working on that.

I hoped that setting vc7 to use vc6 keys would have sorted these but nope a
lot are still different ;(

Output window - no escape to get rid of it. Dunno how the coders at ms work
but i spend the majority of the time with my hands on a keyboard, having to
go get the damn mouse to close down the window (or do anything for that
matter) it irrating beyond belief.

Having worked professionally on unices and windows I was used to having
arguments with hardcore unix bods that vc6 was just as quick to dev with as
emacs / gdb etc.. With vc7 this has changed massively and emacs and unix
type tools are now a clear winner in my mind for straight c / c++ projects.
We are in the same boat as some of the other posters where we have thousands
of dollars of software sitting in drawers as it was just not usable for us,
mainly due to code generation bugs in the .net 2002. It stung us and we just
don't have the confidence to try it again until the project is done.

On the plus side the stl and template support are much better though ;)

Has anyone tried changing the compiler in vc6 for the vc7 one ?

Martin

PS. This has tempted me to go fight with .net for a bit more and see if i
can get some sense out of it;)

"Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]" <luk...@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message

news:Vett0MEL...@cpmsftngxa06.phx.gbl...

Nick Savoiu

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Jun 8, 2003, 9:57:29 PM6/8/03

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"Martin Slater" <msla...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:nDQEa.80$FL1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> f4 - goto to next error - what happended to this ??
> f7 compile current active project, Still haven't figured out how to use
the
> old workspace / project paradigm in .net. I probably just haven't put
enough
> time into it but i want to be able to have multiple projects in the
> workspace ala vc6 select one and only be working on that.
>
> I hoped that setting vc7 to use vc6 keys would have sorted these but nope
a
> lot are still different ;(

selecting Visual C++ 6 in Tools->Options->Keyboard does the trick for me

> Output window - no escape to get rid of it. Dunno how the coders at ms
work
> but i spend the majority of the time with my hands on a keyboard, having
to
> go get the damn mouse to close down the window (or do anything for that
> matter) it irrating beyond belief.

Hear, hear!

Nick

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

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Jun 9, 2003, 4:19:55 PM6/9/03

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"Josh Gibbs" <jgi...@nospam.please> wrote in message
news:3EE110A7...@nospam.please...

> Where do I start? What kind of timeframe would we expect
> for any of our requests to be fulfilled? It's all very
> well knowing you are reading this, but I could just as well
> tell my customers that I've noted their concerns and will
> ponder them this afternoon while I'm fishing. All very
> fuzzy-wuzzy but it doesn't solve anything, and gives no
> indication of how long we have to suffer, so do we go on
> blindly praying for the gods of Microsoft to have a second
> coming, or is their some reality in all of this? It really
> is getting to the point that I'm thinking, "screw this, time
> to start shifting to the linux world". Because the development
> environment has changed so drastically, and is so full of
> little bugs, the time wasted on MS products might well be better
> spent learning the new upcoming operating systems and their
> development tools. I recall a statement from MS some time
> ago about the linux threat that said something along the lines
> of "No we are not worried, because it's a free platform, and
> free software is not supported". Well the irony here has been
> that for all of my requests about VS.NET it should have been
> free as well given the level of actual support that is provided.
>
> I don't want counselling for my IDE woes, I want value for
> my money like was advertised.
>

I really don't want to give you a standard corporate answer here, but
there's only so much I can do. One of the reasons I'm here is to help
identify the most painful shortcomings, most wanted improvements, etc. The
most important problems (bugs) will be addressed in service packs for
VS.NET, and most wanted new functionality will be added to the new VS
version (sometimes the distinction between a bug and new functionality is
blurry). I cannot offer answers for individual bugs/suggestions though. If
you have a blocking problem, you can work with the product support group,
and your problem can be escalated up to the QFE level, which is basically a
custom-made fix that also gets included in the next SP.

Thanks for your list, I really appreciate it - I'll go through it and
comment in a separate post in a moment.

Lukasz

(This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,
and confers no rights.)

Bob Moore

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Jun 9, 2003, 4:20:45 PM6/9/03

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On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:28:19 GMT, Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT] wrote:

>Actually, I'm the dev responsible for this area now, and yes, it will most
>likely be done for the next version - this way or another. We'll also work
>on other annoying windows that appear without a way to turn them off.

In case you haven't spoken to Joe Newcomer, here's a small list of the
things I found most annoying. I've included a few (nowhere near all)
of the problems found by Joe.

------------------------
Dynamic menus and context-sensitivity prevent users learning by
exploring. This is HUGELY HUGELY important : it's the primary
mechanism by which devs learn your product. I spent HOURS trying to
figure out how to set the include directories for a project, before I
discovered that I needed to have clicked on the solution object first.

The Add variable dialog is fundamentally broken. It's far too slow,
and only allows you to create one variable at a time. Jeez, this
monstrosity is even slow on a 2+G barnburner with fast memory and a
stonkingly quick hard disk. What must it be like on the average dev
shop machine ? This one dialog multiplies the time taken to set up a
new form based application by an order of magnitude. Unacceptable.

There's no way to delete a DDX variable via the IDE. None that I can
find. Apropos of which....

...you can't maintain a decent sized commercial app with this IDE.
There needs to be a single central point where variables and messages
for a class can be maintained. If you had taken the old ClassWizard
and added the ability to cope with derived classes, that would have
been good enough. What you've got just doesn't work.

Click on a header and say "open file". Which of the four versions of
this header I *could* be looking at am I *actually* looking at ? No
way to tell, VS.Net won't display the path. I'm forced to find the
include paths and figure it out from there. Dumb.

If VS.Net ever DOES try to display a path, it uses ellipsis notation,
which is so dumb I can't even begin to enumerate the ways in which
it's dumb. You can get into situations where you CANNOT figure out
where the file is. Joe has an example of this which I kept:

>>
For example, I have two projects, one is called

c:\projects\security\SecurityAttack1

and the other is called

c:\projects\DDK Course\SecurityACLS

(now this is a simplification...my projects go to greater depth and
you may say "I tried those two names and they worked", but this
illustrates the point). What I see is

c:\...\SecurityA...
c:\...\SecurityA...
<<

Combo boxes to set TRUE or FALSE for a boolean property ? This was a
silly idea in Delphi, and it's even sillier in VS. I can't scan down
the list, I now have to *read* the entries. I resort to
double-clicking to set them like I do in Delphi. What was wrong with a
checkbox ?

One problem with the C# environment. I put together a test app to try
VS.Net, and the first thing I did was of course to rename the main
form of my app (because that's what you do). The app immediately
wouldn't compile because VS missed one of the occurrences of the name
(I think it was the one where the form got created). This is simple
basic stuff, and should have been caught in testing. NB: I haven't
re-run this test on VS 2003, because I don't use C# in anger.

another couple of telling complaints from Joe :

>>
The "Task list" is a joke. I get an error in a .h file. It is OBVIOUS
to any programmer that the reason for the error in the .h file is that
the appropriate .h file which defines the symbols has not been
included. BUT IN WHICH .CPP FILE? Oh no, you really didn't want to
know that critical piece of information in the task list! What file
was being compiled? Why should you care?

Have you noticed that if you want to change a similar property on
several controls that each control causes the property list to reset
itself to the start of the list, requiring you to scroll down yet
again? This is an "improvement"? This is a system which PESSIMIZES
the user interaction by requiring unnecessary mouse motions and mouse
clicks. I have reverted to using a text editor, and I've even been
editing the .rc file and resource.h because it is easier than using
the tooling.
<<

And to sum up, here's part of a post from Scott McPhillips:

>>
I survived the transition to VC 1, 1.5, 2, 4, 5 and 6. But after
about a week of trying to learn VC7 with toy projects I gave up.
There is too much slipperiness, deadwood and sluggishness in it for a
C++ programmer. My current 80 KLOC project won't compile - serious
problems with 3rd party libs. I would like to have the STL
improvements (that's about all VS7 provides that I would like to have)
but the most precious thing I have is my folks time. I can't justify
the cost of porting the code to VC7. I am also in the prelim stages
of a new multi-year project that will involve about a dozen
programmers. I decided the hell with it we'll use VC6. I can't
afford a dozen folks fighting with this thing day after day. It is
not a productive tool.
<<

I really couldn't have said it better than that. VS.Net stays in my
desk drawer just as it stays in his, unused.

Some parts of VS.Net are sensible. The improved compiler is good, it
will build code that VC6 barfed on. I don't use C#, but it looks like
a good route for the RAD folks. Just FIX THE IDE. Get someone in who
understands good UI design, and test test test for usability on real
devs. MVPs will help if we can - those with whom MS hasn't burned its
bridges.

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

unread,

Jun 9, 2003, 5:23:06 PM6/9/03

to

"Josh Gibbs" <jgi...@nospam.please> wrote in message
news:3EE110A7...@nospam.please...

> Now, off the top of my head, here is a list of things that
> come to mind that disappeared or were modified for worse
> since VC5:
>
> * Dialog editor grid. All of my dialogs are standardized
> on a particular setup in the dialog editor for positioning
> controls. VS.NET doesn't retain the editor settings, so
> every time I restart I must setup the guide settings.
>

Agree, entered.

> * CTRL-W. Getting to the overrides of a dialog is a royal
> pain in the posterior. In VC5 hitting CTRL-W brought up the
> class info in the context of the dialog. VS.NET has a
> convoluted way of doing this that is simply counter-productive
> in a project with many many files (like several of mine). It
> requires either hunting through the file or class list for the
> dialog that is being worked on. Even if CTRL-Shift-C brought
> up the class list and highlighted the dialog class being worked
> on that would be a start to getting back to the functionality
> we had before.
>

Entered.

> * Dialog editor selecting. I HATE the MSAccess form editor,
> but it seems the one thing that I really didn't like I now
> have in VS.NET VC5/6 selected items that were bound by the
> selection box which made selecting items within bounding group
> boxes easy. Now I have a nightmare of clicks and shift clicks
> to highlight only the things I want. This is exceptionally
> trick when I'm away working on my laptop with it's touch pad.
>

Not sure what you mean here - what MSAccess form editor?

> * Toolbox. Get rid of that god-awful outlook button control!
> I understand the reason behind the shareable control, which was
> custom built for us C developers in VC5/6 and was brilliant, but
> in the (successful) attempt to retrograde VC, we now have to put
> up with a VB style box. But not only that, it was take a step
> further and now we have to scroll through the list without a
> scrollbar! Do you guys really think that EVERYONE uses outlook?
> I had no clue how this list worked until a colleague built a
> control for one of our front ends with one of these controls.
> It's like saying elevators look garish, we need that funky
> wooden stair look instead in a 30 storey building. Backwards
> step for the sake of looks.
>

Entered.

> * Toggle for windows. Although VC5 wasn't perfect, it was
> certainly easier to keep clutter off the IDE. The output window
> was but an 'esc' key away from being removed from the screen.
> Now, not only can I not 'esc' it away, but the close button has
> been reduced to the point that advanced l33t skillz need to be
> used to close it - especially when on my laptop with my big
> fat fingers. I would LOVE to see all the windows like solution
> explorer, class view, output etc be toggled on/off because I only
> need to see them when I need to open a file, find a class member
> function, open a resource etc. VS.NET seems to be 'mouse-centric'
> which really wastes time for a developer that, quite frankly, has
> the nowse to figure out hot-keys. We aren't your typical occasional
> letter writer who fumbles around the program with the mouse to find
> out how to bold some text. Developers want the quickest and most
> convenient way to achieve a task, and hotkeys go 99% of the way
> to achieving that end.
>

I guess that's what the auto hide mode is for. If you unpin the sln explorer
window for example, you can press CA+L to bring it up and Esc to get rid of
it, and it stays hidden the rest of the time. Sounds like what you're asking
for, and other windows behave in the same way. Doesn't this work for you?

> * Changing the ID of a control in a dialog. Double click by
> mistake and the ID is history - no undo to boot. I also frequently
> used to double click the dialog control ID in the dialog editor to
> copy the ID for use in code. Now I have to be sooooo careful to
> click once to bring the properties box to the top, wait for the dbl-
> click time to expire and then drag select. WHAT A PAIN. THIS SUX
> A BIG RED SUCKINESS THING!
>

Entered.

> I think that's a good start, and I would dearly love to get some
> of this functionality back - especially as no one will trade in my
> VS.NET for VC6 (let alone sell it to me at all).
>
>
>
> * Also, a wish of mine is to be able to load a file via a command
> line call to VS. I use several compilers, and at the moment
> several code editors because VS can't be invoked from a
> cmdline call from my compilers. I am using free editors for now
> because I don't want to go paying over and over for something
> that I should expect in the most expensive version of them all.
> That, and I have to setup each editor as best it can be to have
> the same hotkeys etc to make life as easy as possible.
>

What's wrong with "devenv <srcfile>"? I probably don't understand what
you're trying to do here.

Thanks for taking the time to write this down.

Josh Gibbs

unread,

Jun 9, 2003, 7:25:03 PM6/9/03

to

>
> > * Dialog editor selecting. I HATE the MSAccess form editor,
> > but it seems the one thing that I really didn't like I now
> > have in VS.NET VC5/6 selected items that were bound by the
> > selection box which made selecting items within bounding group
> > boxes easy. Now I have a nightmare of clicks and shift clicks
> > to highlight only the things I want. This is exceptionally
> > trick when I'm away working on my laptop with it's touch pad.
> >
>
> Not sure what you mean here - what MSAccess form editor?
>

The selection rectangle when highlighting items acts in a similar
way to the MSAccess forms editor. It selects everything it is
touching rather than everything that is enclosed by it. This makes
picking items within group boxes annoying because even though
they aren't being touched, they are selected.

An option for select bounded, or 'touched' items would be a
good way around this, then we can choose which is more
efficient.

>
> > * Also, a wish of mine is to be able to load a file via a command
> > line call to VS. I use several compilers, and at the moment
> > several code editors because VS can't be invoked from a
> > cmdline call from my compilers. I am using free editors for now
> > because I don't want to go paying over and over for something
> > that I should expect in the most expensive version of them all.
> > That, and I have to setup each editor as best it can be to have
> > the same hotkeys etc to make life as easy as possible.
> >
>
> What's wrong with "devenv <srcfile>"? I probably don't understand what
> you're trying to do here.

It opens up a new devenv session. With my other main compiler
it has an option to call an external application to edit files. For
instance, I currently use textpad and it takes the following parameters:

textpad.exe "filename" (row, column)

When I compile, I double click an error, warning etc and it fires
up textpad and takes me to the line of code - ala VS.NET. If
the file is already open, then it just jumps to the line in the open
file.

devenv firstly doesn't have row/column jumping from the command
line, and secondly will always open up a new devenv session and
re-open the file, which is of course useless.

I tried (oh how I tried) to make a workaround where my compiler
spat out a text file with the file/row info, and then wrote a macro in
VS.NET and tied a hotkey to it, but the general clunkiness of the
switching screens with alt-tab hunting for the right VS session through
dozens of other open programs, windows and remote consoles made
this just simply not efficient enough, to the point that a simple editor
was easier and has kept me from going bald.

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

unread,

Jun 10, 2003, 12:52:17 AM6/10/03

to

"Nick Savoiu" <sav...@ics.uci.edu> wrote in message
news:eGWOtLIL...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

Yeah, it's a good one. Forwarded to the debugger team.

thanks,

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

unread,

Jun 10, 2003, 1:41:11 AM6/10/03

to

"Bob Moore" <bo...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:17o9evkm12kqea17n...@4ax.com...

> On Fri, 06 Jun 2003 18:28:19 GMT, Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT] wrote:
>
> Click on a header and say "open file". Which of the four versions of
> this header I *could* be looking at am I *actually* looking at ? No
> way to tell, VS.Net won't display the path. I'm forced to find the
> include paths and figure it out from there. Dumb.
>
> If VS.Net ever DOES try to display a path, it uses ellipsis notation,
> which is so dumb I can't even begin to enumerate the ways in which
> it's dumb. You can get into situations where you CANNOT figure out
> where the file is. Joe has an example of this which I kept:
>
> >>
> For example, I have two projects, one is called
>
> c:\projects\security\SecurityAttack1
>
> and the other is called
>
> c:\projects\DDK Course\SecurityACLS
>
> (now this is a simplification...my projects go to greater depth and
> you may say "I tried those two names and they worked", but this
> illustrates the point). What I see is
>
> c:\...\SecurityA...
> c:\...\SecurityA...
> <<
>

If you use MDI environment you can check the path in the property window
(Full Path). If you use tabbed environment you can also get the full path
from the tooltip for the file's tab. Are you talking about the editor or
something else?

Thanks for the rest of your comments.

unread,

Jun 10, 2003, 4:43:43 AM6/10/03

to

Add to this the adding variables issue previously mentioned
by someone else.

Just working on a new dialog and I'm getting right annoyed
by not only having to add them one at a time, but adding to
my frustration is the source windows leaping to the front
to show how whizzy they are at adding the variables to the
CPP a H files. That's all very well, BUT I HAVE WORK
TO DO SO LEAVE ME ALONE TO ADD MORE
VARIABLES!!! ** puff puff puff **

unread,

Jun 11, 2003, 3:14:26 PM6/11/03

to

"Nick Savoiu" <savoiu@ics_uci_edu> wrote in message
news:OPa6xpiL...@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> "Martin Slater" <msla...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> news:nDQEa.80$FL1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

> > Output window - no escape to get rid of it. Dunno how the coders at ms
> work
> > but i spend the majority of the time with my hands on a keyboard, having
> to
> > go get the damn mouse to close down the window (or do anything for that
> > matter) it irrating beyond belief.
>
> Hear, hear!
>
> Nick

All right... my answer to this one is "it works on my machine" :) Really, I
tried VS 2002 and 2003 and I can use Esc to return from the build output
window to my active document. Same thing with the output window set to
auto-hide (my usual setting), then Esc just closes it. Can you give me a
more detailed description of this - exact steps starting with empty IDE, VS
version/install type?

Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]

unread,

Jun 11, 2003, 3:20:04 PM6/11/03

to

"Nick Savoiu" <savoiu@ics_uci_edu> wrote in message

news:eT%23QVWEM...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

ok, entered.

thanks,

Josh Gibbs

unread,

Jun 11, 2003, 9:33:36 PM6/11/03

to

Ass|u|me you mean? No, I'm in MDI mode. I see where you mean,
what a royal pain. This is like my dialog overrides gripe. If I'm working
in a file I can't just hit alt-enter to see what file I'm in, and the solution
explorer isn't context sensitive, so you have to find the file you're working
on in SE, hit F4 to then see the path - not exactly 'efficient' is it.

I have a prime example of this right now. A LONG time ago I built a
product that had to be built twice because of features that simply had
to be independant. 98% of the code is shared, so I maintain two versions
of the code. When I make changes, I need to run two instances of VStudio
and build changes side by side. There is no indication in each instance of
which version of the program I'm working on. They both have the same
title 'Admin', and without the path info I'm constantly scanning little hints
in the code to remember which one I'm working in.

I have VS.NET 2002

Josh Gibbs

unread,

Jun 11, 2003, 9:40:09 PM6/11/03

to

I just looked at this on my machine and esc moves back to
the source, but I think I know the gripe in question. Some
of us float the output window over the source because we
want all the real estate for the editor. In VC5(/6?) when you
hit escape it did away with the output window. VS.NET
only returns you to the source file.

This comes back to my toggle keys which would be so
incredibly helpful in making VS.NET not only as convenient
as VC5/6 was for this, but would bring at least this feature
into the realm of the advertising which states that we will
"be more efficient and more productive".

Josh Gibbs

unread,

Jul 7, 2003, 7:36:55 PM7/7/03

to

Yet another gripe.

So I opened up a real old project that does some SQL stuff
because I need a new form, and go to add a new class...

Do the 'Add class' guff and hit the drop down combo for
'Base Class' and type 'C' 'R' looking for CRecordSet. Now
this is not in the list, but that's not my point.

Another of the 'missing' features is the 'typeable' combo
box which seemed to be exclusive to VC++ 5/6 in the
MS world. I use other operating systems that have this
feature where, if you are looking for say 'CRecordSet' but
the combo box is filled to the brim with entries beginning
with 'C' (very much the case in MFC) you can simply start
typing what you are looking for and the combo box follows
your keystrokes into the list. This has GONE like so many
other cool features. Now I have to hit 'C' which takes me
to the top of the list because every class starts with 'C' and
then scroll through the list to find the entry I want!

What happened to the developers of VC5/6??? Did they
get layed off for having too many good ideas or something?

"Lukasz Gwozdz[MSFT]" wrote:

> >And there are many other pet peeves :(
> >
> >PS. MS, Is there any official place where we can submit
> suggestions/requests
> >for IDE changes?
> >
>
> This newsgroup (or microsoft.public.vstudio.general) is a pretty good place
> to do it - people from the VS team (like myself) read it and enter work
> items/bugs for appropriate subteams. It really helps if you supply a
> detailed repro case for your problem.
> We have work to do, so it may not look like we're very responsive, but we
> do read this newsgroup. I've entered both items from this thread, btw. If
> you have more suggestions, please post them.
>
> thanks,
> Lukasz