This, in addition to the very poor quality of the IDE, led me to one
conclusion : I don't use VS.Net for production work. I have VS 2003 at
home for evaluation, but we don't use that for production work either,
the original VS.Net left us with such a bad taste in our mouths that
we don't use this one either.

We have stuck with VC6 for production work. I suggest you do the same.

Some people consider this an extreme view - I take the position that
it's a very conservative one. I can't afford to pay the price for
Microsoft's mistakes.

--
Bob Moore [WinSDK MVP]
http://www.mooremvp.freeserve.co.uk/
(this is a non-commercial site and does not accept advertising)
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Do not reply via email unless specifically requested to do so.
Unsolicited email is NOT welcome and will go unanswered.
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So what do you do?  Stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard
place.  I've already paid the price I can't afford for this cr@p
and if only they fixed their mistakes like the rest of us do I
might be happy.

If you have a high-level MSDN subscription lying around the company,
that wil have VC6 in it. Since you've paid for the VS.net anyway,
no-one would begrudge you using that.

It's a real shame : the VS.Net C++ compiler is pretty good. It's just
well hidden behind an unusable and buggy IDE.

--
Bob Moore [WinSDK MVP]
http://www.mooremvp.freeserve.co.uk/
(this is a non-commercial site and does not accept advertising)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do not reply via email unless specifically requested to do so.
Unsolicited email is NOT welcome and will go unanswered.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Try this:

1. Create an empty C++ console project
2. Add a .cpp file containing:

int main(int argc, char* argv[])
{
 while(true);
 return 0;

I can't seem to stop it without having to click twice. Once for the IDE to
get to the front, one to actually press the toolbar button. VS6 used to do
it in one swift click!

And there are many other pet peeves :(

Nick

PS. MS, Is there any official place where we can submit suggestions/requests
for IDE changes?

thanks,
Lukasz

There were a few nice features that I'd seen in VC6 that I
really liked which is why I just decided to bite the bullet and
upgrade.  But to my dismay, I couldn't get VC6, and so I
was essentially forced to go to VC.NET (I guess I could have
become a bus driver instead, but that's really not my calling).

So here I was, lumped with what I expected to be a leap
ahead again on VC6.  I at least expected it to have those
nice features that I already knew and loved.

But no, not only did it not have many of the simplest things
that a C++ GUI developer needs and has come to rely upon,
but VC.NET actually has those good things removed, in what
appears to be an attempt to combine the GUI of VC and VB-
of which many things just simply aren't useful, and at times for
me, counter-productive.

I spent many hours and days converting my code, learning
the 'new way' of doing the majority of the things I previously
could do, and infuriatingly scouring manuals, these forums and
various other sources on the net only to find other things I
used to be able to do are no longer available and I have to
work around them with cumbersome methods.

So not only did it cost me the paltry $4500, it has also cost me
a lot of downtime just to get up to the point where I can continue
getting my code working again, and it has cost my customers
and myself time repairing problems that have been introduced
by the results of the new software.

This is my work, this is how I make a living, and to be made
so inefficient is enough to make me quite annoyed.

So as I started this rather lengthy rant, is there any point in
asking for fixes, or might we just as well yell it into the grand
canyon so we at least get some familiar reply.

thanks,
Lukasz

--------------------

thanks,
Lukasz

Nick

I don't want counselling for my IDE woes, I want value for
my money like was advertised.

/rant off

Now, off the top of my head, here is a list of things that
come to mind that disappeared or were modified for worse
since VC5:

* Dialog editor grid.  All of my dialogs are standardized
on a particular setup in the dialog editor for positioning
controls.  VS.NET doesn't retain the editor settings, so
every time I restart I must setup the guide settings.

* CTRL-W.  Getting to the overrides of a dialog is a royal
pain in the posterior.  In VC5 hitting CTRL-W brought up the
class info in the context of the dialog.  VS.NET has a
convoluted way of doing this that is simply counter-productive
in a project with many many files (like several of mine).  It
requires either hunting through the file or class list for the
dialog that is being worked on.  Even if CTRL-Shift-C brought
up the class list and highlighted the dialog class being worked
on that would be a start to getting back to the functionality
we had before.

* Dialog editor selecting.  I HATE the MSAccess form editor,
but it seems the one thing that I really didn't like I now
have in VS.NET  VC5/6 selected items that were bound by the
selection box which made selecting items within bounding group
boxes easy.  Now I have a nightmare of clicks and shift clicks
to highlight only the things I want.  This is exceptionally
trick when I'm away working on my laptop with it's touch pad.

* Toolbox.  Get rid of that god-awful outlook button control!
I understand the reason behind the shareable control, which was
custom built for us C developers in VC5/6 and was brilliant, but
in the (successful) attempt to retrograde VC, we now have to put
up with a VB style box.  But not only that, it was take a step
further and now we have to scroll through the list without a
scrollbar!  Do you guys really think that EVERYONE uses outlook?
I had no clue how this list worked until a colleague built a
control for one of our front ends with one of these controls.
It's like saying elevators look garish, we need that funky
wooden stair look instead in a 30 storey building.  Backwards
step for the sake of looks.

* Toggle for windows.  Although VC5 wasn't perfect, it was
certainly easier to keep clutter off the IDE.  The output window
was but an 'esc' key away from being removed from the screen.
Now, not only can I not 'esc' it away, but the close button has
been reduced to the point that advanced l33t skillz need to be
used to close it - especially when on my laptop with my big
fat fingers.  I would LOVE to see all the windows like solution
explorer, class view, output etc be toggled on/off because I only
need to see them when I need to open a file, find a class member
function, open a resource etc.  VS.NET seems to be 'mouse-centric'
which really wastes time for a developer that, quite frankly, has
the nowse to figure out hot-keys.  We aren't your typical occasional
letter writer who fumbles around the program with the mouse to find
out how to bold some text.  Developers want the quickest and most
convenient way to achieve a task, and hotkeys go 99% of the way
to achieving that end.

* Changing the ID of a control in a dialog.  Double click by
mistake and the ID is history - no undo to boot.  I also frequently
used to double click the dialog control ID in the dialog editor to
copy the ID for use in code.  Now I have to be sooooo careful to
click once to bring the properties box to the top, wait for the dbl-
click time to expire and then drag select.  WHAT A PAIN.  THIS SUX
A BIG RED SUCKINESS THING!

I think that's a good start, and I would dearly love to get some
of this functionality back - especially as no one will trade in my
VS.NET for VC6 (let alone sell it to me at all).

* Also, a wish of mine is to be able to load a file via a command
line call to VS.  I use several compilers, and at the moment
several code editors because VS can't be invoked from a
cmdline call from my compilers.  I am using free editors for now
because I don't want to go paying over and over for something
that I should expect in the most expensive version of them all.
That, and I have to setup each editor as best it can be to have
the same hotkeys etc to make life as easy as possible.

When multiselecting items in a dialog and dragging
them somewhere, the highlighted object in the group
doesn't seem to be the one that the coords are taken
off.  I was just repositioning a bunch of controls to
squeeze one in the middle, and I couldn't just drag
the controls to the known point because the coords
were coming from some other item in the group.

In VC5, if I hit CTRL-W on, say, an edit control that has
a member variable assigned to it, it would show me what
that variable is.

In VC.net I have to remember this.  Not only is this tricky
to do in very large projects, it's especially hard on projects
that you come back to months later.

(can you tell I'm at the office right now)

We don't VS.Net for work projects. The IDE is unusable, the resource
editor too buggy to be trusted (yes, I've lost work to its bugs,and I
know others who have too). We bought the damn thing and it lies in a
desk drawer, untouched. Waste of money.

--
Bob Moore [WinSDK MVP]
http://www.mooremvp.freeserve.co.uk/
(this is a non-commercial site and does not accept advertising)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do not reply via email unless specifically requested to do so.
Unsolicited email is NOT welcome and will go unanswered.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hoped that setting vc7 to use vc6 keys would have sorted these but nope a
lot are still different ;(

Output window - no escape to get rid of it.  Dunno how the coders at ms work
but i spend the majority of the time with my hands on a keyboard, having to
go get the damn mouse to close down the window (or do anything for that
matter) it irrating beyond belief.

Having worked professionally on unices and windows I was used to having
arguments with hardcore unix bods that vc6 was just as quick to dev with as
emacs / gdb etc.. With vc7 this has changed massively and emacs and unix
type tools are now a clear winner in my mind for straight c / c++ projects.
We are in the same boat as some of the other posters where we have thousands
of dollars of software sitting in drawers as it was just not usable for us,
mainly due to code generation bugs in the .net 2002. It stung us and we just
don't have the confidence to try it again until the project is done.

On the plus side the stl and template support are much better though ;)

Has anyone tried changing the compiler in vc6 for the vc7 one ?

Martin

PS. This has tempted me to go fight with .net for a bit more and see if i
can get some sense out of it;)

Nick

Thanks for your list, I really appreciate it - I'll go through it and
comment in a separate post in a moment.

Lukasz

(This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties,
and confers no rights.)