Word 2004 + Macintel + Some Adobe OpenType Fonts = Crash on save
Gavin Lawrie
problem on our intel iMac and MacBook Pro computers. Have done fairly
extensive screening tests. This is what we have found so far.
1) OS X 10.4.6 + Office 2004 11.2.3 + Adobe OpenType fonts on PPC macs
works fine.
2) Same set up (identical - we reinstalled our MacBook Pro and did a
'user migrate' from a G5 2.3 Dual) on intelMac works fine on all apps
(e.g. Powerpoint) when OpenType fonts are used.
3) Open some Word documents using either of two Adobe OpenType fonts
(Helvetica Neue LT and Minion Pro) and Word works fine until you try
and save file. Then, just after you have done any 'do you want to
overwrite' stuff, and with the progress bar about 5% of way along, you
get beach ball of death. At this point you can ForceQuit Word - but
Font handling messed up if you restart without a log-out. If you leave
it, Word will trigger a cascade crash of all running apps, and then
throw you out to log-in screen.
4) Restart the computer, remove the Adobe OpenType fonts from font
folder and try again. Word doc using fonts appears with substituted
fonts, but you can save it OK.
5) Put fonts back, try again, and you get the crash.
First thing we did was to check to see if fonts damaged. They are not
(and they work fine in other Office Apps also, and without problem on
PPC macs).
To check out other possible causes, we've tried reinstalling Office
(back to 11.0), and reinstalling OS X (back to 10.4.5), and both
together. Behaviour seems consistent in all of these cases.
Others have reported that replacing OpenType versions of fonts with TTF
version solves problem (e.g. ITC Garamond problem reported recently).
We are currently trying to source TTF equivalents of our OpenType fonts
to test this.
Only thing that we are not sure about is why some (old) versions of
documents that use some of the OpenType fonts do appear to work in Word
- as in, you can save them on MacIntel machines. Initially we thought
this indicated that some of our MacIntels had the problem and others
not, but rather it seems they all behave similarly. When we get time
we'll try a test where we see if we can isolate if it is one specific
font file that is causing problem.
Either way this should not be happening, and so this looks like a
genuine bug in Word 2004 when it is run on MacIntel hardware. Would be
grateful if either someone MVP ish could report this to whomsoever can
fix it, or post details of how I can do this. Also would be very
helpful to find out if others can reproduce this problem.
Thanks for whatever help is available on this.
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
Thanks for the exhaustive and detailed analysis. I have forwarded that on
to our internal contact at Microsoft.
If there is any information coming back as a result, it will probably be
posted directly in this forum by the Word developers.
Cheers
On 7/5/06 10:13 AM, in article 2006050701133516807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk,
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:
--
Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
me unless I ask you to.
John McGhie <jo...@mcghie.name>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 (0) 4 1209 1410
hdjong
light.) 3 of may, I explaned how word crashes on save with a new blanc
documents when more than 1464 characters are typed using a Postscript
font or Opentype-postscript font.
But I discovered how this can be avoided with new created documents on
an Intel Mac.
Create new blanc document
Choose Postscipt or Opentype-postscript font
Type less than 1464 characters,
Go to, File menu, properties, Summary tab, Title
You see a very long title. (the same text you typed). When you
replace this text with a short title, you can save the document and
after that you can type as many characters and saving the document
without crashing in quit.
A bit cryptic but it maybe it can help with the problem solving.
Hans de Jong
Netherlands
Gavin Lawrie
> Create new blanc document
> Choose Postscipt or Opentype-postscript font
> Type less than 1464 characters,
> Go to, File menu, properties, Summary tab, Title
> You see a very long title. (the same text you typed). When you
> replace this text with a short title, you can save the document and
> after that you can type as many characters and saving the document
> without crashing in quit.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Doesn't work same way here.
Created a blank document and pasted in 3,849 chars (of lorem ipsum
text). Saved with short properties title, using one of our OpenType
fonts. Saved with no problems.
Tried again and attempted to put as many chars as possible into the
Properties / Title field but only persuaded Word to accept 219. File
still saves OK.
Tried again with 1496 characters (no punctuation and no spaces). No problems.
However, created a new document from a template that incorporates our
OpenType fonts. Generate 1001 characters of text. Check properties
and title is simply "Project Title" (as this inherited from Template
rather than initial text). File-Save-As and we get beach ball of
death, cascade application crashes, and chucked out to log-in screen as
before.
Do same thing on our G5 Dual, no problems at all.
I still need to find time to decompose our template to see if I can
isolate if there is a specific element that causes the problem.
G.
Clive Huggan
Cheers,
Clive Huggan
============
On 8/5/06 6:39 PM, in article
1147077581.9...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "hdjong"
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
Yes, that helps ME a lot. I put in a bug a couple of months ago reporting
very similar strange behaviour after getting a document from one of the
posters on this newsgroup.
I don't think anyone at Microsoft believed me :-) Now they have your
example as well (plus Gavin's excellent analysis from yesterday) and Jeffrey
just told us he has someone looking at it.
Jeffrey is the Microsoft software tester who helps us out in here. If they
can find anything useful, I expect they'll post it in here.
Cheers
On 8/5/06 6:39 PM, in article
1147077581.9...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "hdjong"
<hdj...@kejadonia.nl> wrote:
--
Kelly Uehling
I just wanted to throw my "Me too" into this thread and say Kudos for an
excellent description of this particular problem.
One of our Marketing staff recently received a new MacBook Pro and she
began experiencing this issue. We in IT couldn't find an explanation
until I happened to stumble across this thread.
It wasn't clear to me how to work around this issue though. I asked the
end user to change the font from ITC Garamond Light to Arial and she let
me know that she was able to successfully save the document that had
routinely crashed her computer. We did not need to remove the Garamond
font.
Thanks again!
Kelly Uehling
Clive Huggan
Clive Huggan
============
On 13/5/06 5:35 AM, in article #zlHMtfd...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl, "Kelly
Gavin Lawrie
exactly what or how this is happening, but it seems that opening a PPT
with a Word table embedded where the word table uses the problem fonts
causes a beach-ball-of-death crash of PPT. One of our team on the road
with a MacPro, was mailed the ppt presentation (which was saved in
thumbnail view), opened doc and after showing about 10 of the
thumbnails went BBOD. He's just returned and doc opens fine on PPC
(indeed it was created on such a machine), so seems to be MacIntel
related.
Major unexplained difference is why this one is showing up when you
view the file - with Word you can usually view the file, the crash
comes when you save...
Anyhow, when we get time we'll try and deconstruct problem a bit
better. Until then, please post if you have seen anything similar.
Thanks!
Gavin Lawrie
Gavin Lawrie
> This has been appearing in several posts recently. We've had this
> problem on our intel iMac and MacBook Pro computers. Have done fairly
> extensive screening tests. This is what we have found so far.
> When we get time we'll try a test where we see if we can isolate if it
> is one specific font file that is causing problem.
I've spent the day trying to get to the bottom of this problem. What
has emerged is consistent with what we found before, and has some
similarities with the findings posted by Hans de Jong.
First, we found a class of documents that use our OpenType font set but
don't crash MacIntel's. The common feature appeared to be the length
of the document. We found a pair of documents, one of which reliably
crashed the macintels on save-as, another almost identical that didn't.
Further, by moving material back and forth between these two
documents, and some other games, I then established that the problem is
not linked to any one specific OpenType font we use.
Second, I created a blank document and filled it with random text. I
gradually increased the amount of text in the document, and sure enough
when the document went beyond a certain size, a Save As... operation
would reliably crash the MacIntel. Shorten the document, or remove the
OpenType fonts being used, and the document could be saved as...
without problem.
Third I checked that the file has no problems at all on the similarly
configured G5 Dual.
The numbers for document size that triggers the crash are, however,
different to those obtained by Hans de Jong. Also, as posted before,
we can't replicate his 'very long title' problem - we get a crash
regardless of length of document title. Changing the title doesn't fix
the problem for us, as Hans said it did for him.
Our test document has the following attributes:
Pages 1. Words 241. Characters 1540 / 1768. Paragraphs 20. Lines 38.
The crashing version of the document has additional characters
appended, and has these attributes:
Pages 1. Words 241. Characters 1543 / 1771. Paragraphs 20. Lines 38.
In both cases the title of the document (in Properties / Summary) is
simply 'Title'.
My guess is that some other variable is the thing that takes the file
over the crash limit - it is just affected by things like word count /
character count rather than being directly driven by it.
We only have Adobe OpenType fonts: we've not been able to work out if
the problem persists with non Adobe fonts. Would be very helpful if
someone could let us know if problem appears with OpenType fonts from
other foundries.
Hopefully someone can work out what is going on with this information.
If anyone wants a copy of the test document, let me know and I'll post
it somewhere.
I had a look, and replacing our OpenType fonts with PS equivalents
(which it seems we can do) will cost about $500. Seems like a lot
simply to use Word 2004... I'd much rather someone worked out how to
fix it... ;)
Gavin Lawrie
UK
Beth Rosengard
discoveries or insights and we'll do the same!
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
On 5/17/06 4:41 PM, in article 2006051800411716807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk,
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
PowerPoint, I leap in to note that whereas PowerPoint can rotate text, and
Excel can rotate it "in units of 90 degrees", Word cannot rotate text at all
(unless it's in a text box or a table).
So as soon as I hear this problem, I say: check your document for rotated
text: chances are that's where the problem is.
Cheers
On 16/5/06 7:29 AM, in article 2006051522290816807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk,
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:
--
Gavin Lawrie
Macintosh]" <jo...@mcghie.name> said:
> So as soon as I hear this problem, I say: check your document for rotated
> text: chances are that's where the problem is.
Hi John,
I would agree with you, except for fact that problem does not present
on PPC based mac. If it was a text rotation problem, we'd see it on
any type of Mac. This only occurs on the MacBook Pro - the problem
arose when someone prepared a presentation on our G5 Dual, and mailed
it to the person to present from their MacBook Pro: worked fine on
sending (and on subsequent sending back). Crashes the MacBook Pro. So
looks like something else is going on.
Regards
Gavin Lawrie.
Jeffrey Weston [MSFT]
Wow, thank you very much for this very, very detailed analysis of the
problem. I've passed this onto other testers in the Macintosh Business Unit,
who will study the results Hans de Jong and you have posted to this
Newsgroup.
Thanks
Jeffrey Weston
Mac Word Test
Macintosh Business Unit
Microsoft
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2006051800411716807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk...
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
Different graphics driver + rotated text? I'm still suspicious :-)
Cheers
On 19/5/06 12:33 AM, in article 2006051815332116807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk,
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:
--
adam...@mindspring.com
this and know that I'm not crazy. I couldn't find any information
online when I first had the problem back in February, and a call to
Apple was completely unhelpful. They just blamed it on the font
manufacturer. I initially had the problem with the Postscript font DIN.
I subsequently duplicated the problem with other Postscript fonts. My
company actually purchased the OpenType version of DIN hoping it would
resolve the problem (as Word didn't seem to have problems with several
free OpenType fonts we tested). Well, it turns out we have the same
problem with the OpenType version of DIN; it does show up as type
OpenType-Postscript in Font Book, like the other fonts mentioned on
this thread. What's a little strange is the problem occurs with
DIN-Light but not with DIN-Regular, or at least it doesn't seem to.
Also, when I first had the problem several months ago, I found like
other posters that some documents had the problem and others didn't. I
thought I had narrowed it down to only documents with embedded images.
But reading in this thread that others have found a connection between
the number of characters and Word freezing on Save, I'm thinking maybe
it has to do with the actual size of the Word doc (i.e. in kilobytes).
That would also explain why the number of characters required to
trigger this issues seems to be inconsistent for different users.
Anyway, those are my two cents. I look forward to some sort of
resolution to this issue, as it's causing us some pretty serious
problems; basically every document we produce in our business uses the
DIN font.
Thanks to everyone for this thread and all the helpful suggestions!
Best,
Adam
Gavin Lawrie
Waiting for MS to fix the problem (or Apple etc.) is not an option for
us. In theory we can edit the documents with no fonts installed, but
printing them is a bit of a problem. So we've shelled out for a
sub-set of our fonts in Mac PS format to see if this might solve the
problem. Fortunately we only bought a sub-set - we bought the Mac PS
version of Minion Regular, Italic, Bold and Bold Italic from Linotype.
We used the Linotype font utility FontExplorer X (1.0.1) to install
these fonts. We removed all other Minion fonts from the computer
(physical deletion method), and flushed both application and system
font caches (using Linotype utility).
Then the following steps / results happened. I have no explanation for
what happens - hopefully someone can advise / suggest where to go next
with this.
1. First I confirmed that de-activating the Minion fonts worked in same
fashion to removing fonts from font folder. I deactivated Minion,
loaded the test 'crashing' document and tried to do save-as. It saved
just fine.
2. I closed Word. Activated Minion. Opened and saved-as the 'broken'
document. Save-as worked fine.
3. I edited all the 'available styles' in the broken document that used
Minion Pro, changing to the equivalent Minion font. Then I tried to
Save As... the file. I got the same cascade-crash from Word that we've
seen previously and reported on before. Force-quit and restart
computer.
4. I deactivate Minion. Flush system and application font caches. Restart.
5. Open 'broken' document and confirm save-as works OK. It does.
6. I edited styles in broken document, changing styles using Minion Pro
to use Optima (a TrueType font, used simply because it was there)
instead. Then tried to Save As... the file. Save As... works fine.
7. Close Word. Activate Minion. Edit the saved 'Optima' document -
changing styles using Optima to use Minion instead. Try Save As... and
get the cascade crash.
8. Aaaaagh!
9. Reflect on the waste of €120 on PS fonts. Scream again.
10. Wonder what to do next. So step through steps listed above again.
Get exactly same results second time round.
Test computer is an early model MacBook Pro 2.0 with 2.0GB Ram running
10.4.6, Office 2004 (11.2.3), Acrobat Pro 7 and some other apps
installed (e.g. Skpe, Fire etc.). During tests, only Word is open.
So in summary, what do we know now?
1. Under some circumstances documents that work fine on PPC machines
cause Word 2004 to crash during Save As... operations on MacIntel
machines.
2. Removing OpenType fonts used in the document from the font folder
(or equivalent) stops document crashing word when run on MacIntel
hardware.
3. Installing similarly named PS fonts (but not using them) on machine
where OpenType fonts have been removed does not cause crash on Save
As...
4. Editing document to use the substitute PS fonts (Minion rather than
Minion Pro) causes Save As... crash to reappear
5. Editing document to use some other font (Optima rather than Minion
Pro) does not cause Save As... crash
6. Problems are narrowly linked to Word - PowerPoint 2004 (for example)
has no problems using the OpenType fonts.
Help! I really can't think what to do next. Any suggestions would be
really most helpful. Separately, I have confirmed that opening
document using NeoOffice J's Word equivalent seems to work just fine
with OpenType fonts activated: but for various reasons we really are
not keen on running NeoOffice on some machines and Word 2004 on others.
Look forward to hearing suggestions.
Gavin Lawrie
adam...@mindspring.com
thought that it was Postscript fonts that were causing the cascading
crash, so my company shelled out for the OpenType version of the same
font. I had the same result as you, except in my case Word
automatically substitutes the OpenType version of the font for the
Postscript version, so I don't have to manually edit the document
styles to use the OpenType version. But saving, regardless of whether
the OpenType version of the font or the Postscript version is being
used, causes the cascading crash. I wish I had been as wise as you and
only purchased a subset of the OpenType font. I am also kicking myself
for the waste of $200+.
I have another tidbit of information that might be helpful: I found
that when this cascading crash starts, if I have Activity Monitor open
I can see the ATSServer process (ATS, I believe, stands for Apple Type
Services) repeatedly crashing and relaunching (and the pid increases
each time). I'm wondering if this is what is causing other programs to
crash, that the ATSServer process is taking up more and more memory as
it crashes and relaunches. It also may be a hint to someone more
knowledgeable than myself as to what is causing this.
That's all for now. I'm certainly looking forward to the resolution of
this problem! Thanks for all the helpful information, everyone!
Best,
Adam
Beth Rosengard
to MSFT, which I've just done. This *will* get fixed sooner or later; I
just hope it's sooner.
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
On 6/2/06 6:53 PM, in article
1149299583.8...@f6g2000cwb.googlegroups.com,
hdjong
Do we have to wait for the universal binary version?
bog
narrowed it down to Word and Intel Macs, but had just started thinking about
the OpenType fonts. I just got off the phone with a very unresponsive Apple
on this issue. Anyway, I wanted to add that when Word freezes during the
save, the process ATSServer crashes and relaunches continuously until you
force quit Word. This constant crashing sometimes causes other applications
such as Finder and Safari to quit as well. If anyone wants to see any of
these crash logs, let me know.
Thanks again,
Mark bog
bog
narrowed it down to Word and Intel Macs, but had just started thinking about
the process ATSServer (a Mac OS X service which provides font notifications)
Beth Rosengard
they'll contact you directly.
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
On 6/14/06 11:46 AM, in article
E58A6111-95BA-4E90...@microsoft.com, "bog"
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
The crashes seem to be happening in ATSUI. That's an Apple process, so it
appears we're waiting on Apple for a fix.
Cheers
On 14/6/06 5:48 PM, in article
1150271282....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com, "hdjong"
<hdj...@kejadonia.nl> wrote:
> Still the same error with the latest Microsoft Office update 10.2.4 :-(
>
> Do we have to wait for the universal binary version?
>
--
Gavin Lawrie
Macintosh]" <jo...@mcghie.name> said:
> The crashes seem to be happening in ATSUI. That's an Apple process, so it
> appears we're waiting on Apple for a fix.
Yes... but they are being caused by Word! Are you aware of any other
app that does this? I would have thought MS would want its product to
work around this problem - not sit back and wait for Apple to get
around to fixing something that doesn't appear broken in any other
app...
G.
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
producing this particular crash.
You would have to ask the people looking at the issue at Apple. I may be a
week or two out of date on this one, but so far, I have not seen anything
from either company to say that we know for sure what the cause of this
actually is. Last I heard, it was still under investigation.
While Microsoft might very much like its product to "work", one of the
things a large-scale software producer would never do is rush out a
*work-around* to a software issue in someone else's code. Particularly not
when they suspect the other company may be working on a fix.
Otherwise they would get into a tail chasing situation: one works-around it,
the other fixes the issue, the first works around the work-around, the
second fixes the fix to the work-around... If each company has three tries
at it, you have 27 possible states a customer's machine could possibly be
in, and two sets of help desks tearing their hair out.
Generally, the rule is to wait until the owner of the code either ships a
fix or announces that they're not going to do so.
I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but it's the way large-scale
software production works...
Cheers
On 20/6/06 7:16 PM, in article 2006062010160016807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk,
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:
--
adam.c....@gmail.com
Gothic) on an Intel iMac with Office 2004 (11.2.4). I am also getting
the SBBOD when using Track Changes and sometimes when copying/pasting
from other apps. One solution/work-around I have found is that Office
X (10.1.6) doesn't seem to suffer from any of this. I have it
installed on the same macine as Office 2004 and doing the same thing in
X doesn't crash Word, but doing it in 2004 (on the same exact machine)
does crash it. Not sure if this helps, but I thought I'd share anyway
:-)
Elliott Roper
<adam.c....@gmail.com> wrote:
That is a *very* useful observation. ATSUI was not used in v.X
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
ability to draw Unicode characters. Word X can't draw Unicode and does not
call ATSUI.
On 28/6/06 4:41 AM, in article 270620061941297995%nos...@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
Roper" <nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
--
hdjong
I just did an update MS Office 2004 Mac eng version 10.2.5. Tested the
crash on save issue and the problem is still there. I was hoping the
problem should be solved by now.
Hans de Jong
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
We'll let you know when they put the fix out :-)
But currently neither Microsoft nor Apple can do anything about this,
because they can't find it. Reporting that the bug is "still there" is not
taking us forward: we know it's still there, because so far we do not have
enough information to be able to find it.
We need you to give us the version of Word and the name and manufacturer of
the font that you think is causing the problem. Full details on your system
will help too.
The reason this bug is not already fixed is that currently, Microsoft does
not have enough information to be able to go looking for it.
Yes. It's a serious issue for some users. Everyone accepts that.
Yes. They will fix it as soon as they can. They already said that.
But No. They can't do anything about it until we start getting detailed
information.
So both Microsoft and Apple are simply going to sit there doing nothing
until we get the detail they need.
If you want the bug fixed: please send DETAILS.
Cheers
On 12/7/06 10:21 PM, in article
1152706886.2...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "hdjong"
<hdj...@kejadonia.nl> wrote:
--
John C. Welch
[MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]" <jo...@mcghie.name> wrote:
> So both Microsoft and Apple are simply going to sit there doing nothing
> until we get the detail they need.
>
> If you want the bug fixed: please send DETAILS.
Specific details that would help:
1) can someone PLEASE test this on 10.4.7? There appear to be some ATSUI
changes in that version.
2) if some of you are comfortable with it, when you see ATSServer doing it's
bouncing, run fs_usage for a bit. That could be helpful in seeing just what
word and other things are doing to the file system.
3) on the systems this is happening on, are there any haxies, addons,
anything in the menu bar that Apple didn't supply, etc. InputManagers and
APE count, even if you aren't actively using them.
4) When this happens, has anyone immediately created a new clean test user
and tried to work with the same document in that?
5) WRT to the fonts, is this in conjunction with a font manager? what is the
specific font setup on the affected machines, i.e. directory locations.
6) On the fonts causing the problem, does Font Book's font check come up
clean?
7) on the affected machines, has anyone touched any of the fonts in
/System/Library/Fonts for any reason?
8) On the affected machines, have you checked the permissions for the fonts.
(No, "Repair Permissions" doesn't count, as it, at most, would only touch
the main font directory.)
john
gruth
> changes in that version.
described.
> 3) on the systems this is happening on, are there any haxies, addons,
> anything in the menu bar that Apple didn't supply, etc. InputManagers and
> APE count, even if you aren't actively using them.
When I ran into this problem, I first tried stripping all non-Apple
add-ons (SideTrack and MenuMeters). The problem persists with and
without them.
> 4) When this happens, has anyone immediately created a new clean test user
> and tried to work with the same document in that?
Yes. I in fact reimaged the entire drive with a clean 10.4.7 install
and a clean Office install.
> 5) WRT to the fonts, is this in conjunction with a font manager? what is the
> specific font setup on the affected machines, i.e. directory locations.
I've tried it with the fault at blame in both the "root" location
(/Library/Fonts) and in the "User" location
(/Users/myaccountname/Library/Fonts)
> 6) On the fonts causing the problem, does Font Book's font check come up
> clean?
Yes. I've also tried checking for duplicates with Font Book -- no luck.
> 7) on the affected machines, has anyone touched any of the fonts in
> /System/Library/Fonts for any reason?
No.
> 8) On the affected machines, have you checked the permissions for the fonts.
> (No, "Repair Permissions" doesn't count, as it, at most, would only touch
> the main font directory.)
I could do this, but I'm not sure how to -- Disk Utility is the only
way I know to check permissions.
Also, the particular font that's creating trouble for me is Adobe
Garamond, Postscript Type 1. The font version is 001.002, for what it's
worth.
Thanks!
Beth Rosengard
Navigate to the Garamond font you mentioned (Home/Library/Fonts). Click
once on the font to select it and do a Get Info (Cmd>i). Under Owner &
Permissions, does it say you can both Read & Write?
Thanks very much for your thorough reply on this!
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
My Site: <http://www.bethrosengard.com>
On 7/14/06 9:16 AM, in article
1152893801.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
John C. Welch
1152893801.4...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
<geof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 8) On the affected machines, have you checked the permissions for the fonts.
>> (No, "Repair Permissions" doesn't count, as it, at most, would only touch
>> the main font directory.)
> I could do this, but I'm not sure how to -- Disk Utility is the only
> way I know to check permissions.
Gotta do it the hard way, via terminal most likely.
>
> Also, the particular font that's creating trouble for me is Adobe
> Garamond, Postscript Type 1. The font version is 001.002, for what it's
> worth.
That's of use, as it means it's not strictly an open type issue.
John C. Welch
"Beth Rosengard" <bethro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Navigate to the Garamond font you mentioned (Home/Library/Fonts). Click
> once on the font to select it and do a Get Info (Cmd>i). Under Owner &
> Permissions, does it say you can both Read & Write?
Terminal's a better choice, as the Finder doesn't fully show all the
permissions.
Beth Rosengard
Welch" <jwe...@bynkii.com> wrote:
>> Navigate to the Garamond font you mentioned (Home/Library/Fonts). Click
>> once on the font to select it and do a Get Info (Cmd>i). Under Owner &
>> Permissions, does it say you can both Read & Write?
>
> Terminal's a better choice, as the Finder doesn't fully show all the
> permissions.
It would help if you'd explain how to do this, John. I don't know enough
about Terminal to do it myself.
Do you really think that font permissions has anything to do with this
problem?
gruth
Beth Rosengard wrote:
> Hi gruth,
>
> Navigate to the Garamond font you mentioned (Home/Library/Fonts). Click
> once on the font to select it and do a Get Info (Cmd>i). Under Owner &
> Permissions, does it say you can both Read & Write?
Yes, I can both read and write.
Chris Ridd
<bethro...@earthlink.net> said:
> On 7/14/06 1:04 PM, in article C0DD630B.20035%jwe...@bynkii.com, "John C.
> Welch" <jwe...@bynkii.com> wrote:
>
>>> Navigate to the Garamond font you mentioned (Home/Library/Fonts). Click
>>> once on the font to select it and do a Get Info (Cmd>i). Under Owner &
>>> Permissions, does it say you can both Read & Write?
>>
>> Terminal's a better choice, as the Finder doesn't fully show all the
>> permissions.
>
> It would help if you'd explain how to do this, John. I don't know enough
> about Terminal to do it myself.
In terminal, type "ls -l " without the quotes but with the two spaces.
Then drag the Garamond font file into that terminal window and then
type return. The output will look something like (obviously I used a
different font):
-rwxr-xr-x 1 cjr 502 0 Apr 8 2004 /Library/Fonts/Office/Book Antiqua
^^^^^^^^^^ these characters show the file permissions. They are
organized this way:
- means this is a plain file and not a directory
or other special file
rwx means this can be read, written and executed
by the owner of the file (cjr in this case)
r-x means this can be read and executed but not
written by members of the group (502 in this
case)
r-x means this can be read and executed but not
written by all other users
Hopefully that doesn't get word-wrapped too badly...
Cheers,
Chris
gruth
permissions for one fo the fonts in the Garamond family:
-rwxr-xr-x 1 urban urban 0 Dec 8 1998
/Users/urban/Library/Fonts/AGarReg
gruth
this problem will be resolved? I understand that it involves both Apple
& MS, but given this, can you shed any light on the timeline?
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
That's the $64,000 question we would all love to have answered.
The employees of both Apple and Microsoft are not allowed to comment
publicly on this. And they're certainly not allowed to tell us.
So I think the best answers I can give you are "Weeks, rather than months"
and "Those who know are not allowed to tell us, and those who tell us, don't
know!"
The first one is just my guess. The second is a known fact :-)
Cheers
On 18/7/06 12:13 PM, in article
1153188814.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
<geof...@gmail.com> wrote:
--
paulnyc
recently in the last few weeks, but it may have existed before when I
didn't try using fancier fonts than just Times or Times New Roman. I've
had it occur with Adobe's Minion and Myriad and just now with
ACaslonRegular. I have the latest versions of OSX 10.4.7 and Mac Office
2004 on my macbook pro 2.17. What happens is that I get the beachball
in Word as it tries to save and then other applications quit (Preview,
Safari, TextEdit) and I lose everything in those applications. It is a
frightening error because it feels like a virus is killing everything.
After losing an hour of work, I really want to avoid using offending
fonts until there's a permanent fix from MS and Apple.
I wish somebody could explain in simple language which fonts are okay
to use and which are not. I don't really understand the difference
between OTF and PS fonts, though I'm pretty sure I have both.
Paul
gruth
fairly simple.
Open Font Book (in the Applications folder).
Disable all the non-system fonts on your computer. (Go to menu: Edit
--> Disable)
To tell which fonts are the standard OS X System fonts, check this
link:
http://www.xvsxp.com/system/fonts_view.php
In addition, you should leave these fonts, since some Office programs
use them:
Arial
Arial Black
Comic Sans MS
Tahoma
Trebuchet MS
Verdana
Webdings
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
I wish we could too. We're only just discovering which fonts are risky and
which are not :-(
You have just told us three that don't work! We have no way (currently) to
distinguish which work and which do not.
I would be interested to know if Geoff's suggestion works for you (we all
would...) :-)
Cheers
On 20/7/06 2:43 AM, in article
1153327409....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "paulnyc"
<ptak...@aol.com> wrote:
--
John C. Welch
1153327409....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com, "paulnyc"
<ptak...@aol.com> wrote:
> After losing an hour of work, I really want to avoid using offending
> fonts until there's a permanent fix from MS and Apple.
>
> I wish somebody could explain in simple language which fonts are okay
> to use and which are not. I don't really understand the difference
> between OTF and PS fonts, though I'm pretty sure I have both.
So far, the only fonts that seem to not be affected at all are TrueType. The
bugger - all part of this is that there's no consistency in this problem,
other than Intel Macs and Word, which makes it fiendishly difficult to track
down.
John C. Welch
1153188814.9...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
<geof...@gmail.com> wrote:
There'd be no way, even assuming they knew, for anyone from Microsoft to be
able to say when any Apple bugs would be fixed.
Gavin Lawrie
> Specific details that would help:
>
> 1) can someone PLEASE test this on 10.4.7? There appear to be some ATSUI
> changes in that version.
I did this as soon as it came out and posted the results in the forum -
others did too. It doesn't solve the problem.
> 2) if some of you are comfortable with it, when you see ATSServer doing it's
> bouncing, run fs_usage for a bit. That could be helpful in seeing just what
> word and other things are doing to the file system.
Tried, but as when this happens the computer goes into a death-spiral
killing apps and then logging out the user, this was simply too hard to
get to work: the whole thing is over (on our machines anyhow) in about
30 secs, during which time machine is not very responsive. In fact
sometimes if you don't get to Word quickly enough, you can't get the
force-quit option showing at all and you just have to wait for machine
to die. Any suggestions about how to do this another way?
> 3) on the systems this is happening on, are there any haxies, addons,
> anything in the menu bar that Apple didn't supply, etc. InputManagers and
> APE count, even if you aren't actively using them.
If you recall when this problem first emerged, I spent an inordinate
amount of time trying to characterise the problem - including such
desparate acts as initialising the MacIntel (complete HD wipe and
reinstall), back-grading Office and OS X separately etc. None of these
made any difference - and by implications eliminate the risk arising
from widgets, addons and the like.
> 4) When this happens, has anyone immediately created a new clean test user
> and tried to work with the same document in that?
Yes. See original messages in this thread. Didn't work.
> 5) WRT to the fonts, is this in conjunction with a font manager? what is the
> specific font setup on the affected machines, i.e. directory locations.
See original messages (do you see a pattern emerging here...?). During
work to characterise the problem it was suggested that various font
managers and font cache cleaning utilities would help. None did.
Except that with a Font Manager it is easier to remove the offending
fonts from the font folder.
> 6) On the fonts causing the problem, does Font Book's font check come up
> clean?
That was one of the first things we tried (along with font cleaners,
font inspectors, font repair tools etc.). As posted in the initial
messages, none of the fonts was faulty.
> 7) on the affected machines, has anyone touched any of the fonts in
> /System/Library/Fonts for any reason?
No, but in the testing / reinstalling etc these fonts would have been
reset to their default / unchanged state, and this didn't solve the
problem. So suspect that this is nothing to do with it.
> 8) On the affected machines, have you checked the permissions for the fonts.
> (No, "Repair Permissions" doesn't count, as it, at most, would only touch
> the main font directory.)
Didn't try this first time around (this is the first time it has been
suggested). Using the method described elsewhere in the thread we get:
-rwzrwxrwx 1 gavinlaw gavinlaw 174112 Sep 15 2005
/Users/gavinlawrie/Library/Fonts/2GC Fonts/MinonPro-Regular.otf
Just in case you are wondering, we also tried moving the fonts from a
sub-directory to the main directory, but makes no difference. Putting
the fonts in a folder makes it easier to remove them...
So. Hope this helps. I am really disappointed that so far nothing has
been done to address this issue on grounds that it can't be reproduced:
we here have gone to extraordinary lengths to characterise this
problem, demonstrate it is repeatable, isolate features that seem to
trigger it, and provide exhaustive information on the machines we are
running into the problem on. With the exception of your Question 8,
all the 'missing' information requested has been provided before.
Looks like we wasting our time.
We have long since demonstrated that we can create a machine with the
problem by reinstalling OS X from the distribution disk, and installing
Office 2004 from the MS CD, installing our standard fonts, opening a
document that uses these fonts and saving it. Doing same again with
our standard fonts removed, and you don't have the problem. Quite why
this fails on other machines is a mystery - but suggests to me that if
we sent over one of our documents and our standard fonts, the rest
(i.e. a MacIntel reset to its distribution condition, with vanilla
Office 2004 installed) could be supplied by someone at either MS or
Apple.
Let me know if you want to do this...
Regards
Gavin Lawrie
Gavin Lawrie
Macintosh]" <jo...@mcghie.name> said:
> But No. They can't do anything about it until we start getting detailed
> information.
>
> So both Microsoft and Apple are simply going to sit there doing nothing
> until we get the detail they need.
>
> If you want the bug fixed: please send DETAILS.
As per note in another post on this topic. This type of attitude
annoys me alot: I started this thread, sometime early May (at least
earlier than 7th May). This is a serious problem for us, and we have
provided notes on detailed and exhaustive efforts to try and pin down
this problem - including completely re-initialising a couple of our
computers, backgrading OS and Office versions, changing fonts, using
font managers etc. etc. etc. Days of effort. Was it badly written?
Was something vital missed out? If so, why haven't you commented on
this at the time...?
What is it that wasn't provided that you need to know?
Gavin Lawrie
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
Sorry if my remarks upset you. They were not aimed at YOU. Your
meticulously detailed research was just what was needed.
My remarks were a follow to a post by a different user, who was basically
providing no further information than the assertion "It's broken". Which we
already knew. What I needed (three weeks ago...) was a similar amount of
detail from another user. This was when they were having difficulty
isolating the problem.
As a result of your postings, the issue HAS now been replicated by the
software testers on the responsible development teams. I believe they now
know what it is, and where it is. But I have no more detail than that.
So I think it is no longer the case that "nothing is being done". I believe
action is now under way. I would love to be able to tell you more, but I
don't have any more information to tell you.
On a personal note, speaking only for myself, I remain convinced that this
issue is an Apple OS bug that should be addressed by Apple. Regrettably,
neither Apple nor Microsoft employees would be permitted to come in here to
confirm (or deny) this. The legal situation in the USA would mean that any
admission or assertion on the part of either company could lead to expensive
consequences.
So now, we wait. I remain convinced that this issue will be fixed by an
Apple patch. I don't know if that's correct, and I have no idea when.
Cheers
On 1/8/06 6:41 AM, in article 2006073121414975249-gavinlawrie@2gccouk,
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:
--
Gavin Lawrie
Macintosh]" <jo...@mcghie.name> said:
> As a result of your postings, the issue HAS now been replicated by the
> software testers on the responsible development teams.
That is very encouraging news. Thanks for sharing it.
> The legal situation in the USA would mean that any
> admission or assertion on the part of either company could lead to expensive
> consequences.
I'm sure, and understand the reluctance to self-incriminate. We're not
so interested in lawsuits, we just want to get on with using the
programme...
> So now, we wait. I remain convinced that this issue will be fixed by an
> Apple patch. I don't know if that's correct, and I have no idea when.
I'll keep all fingers and toes crossed etc.
Regards
Gavin Lawrie.
Hugh Watkins
I am new on the group
so I am blowed if i will read lots of old files
so pleas briefly define the problem
the trick with ny macintosh is to freeze old machines OS and software
once they work well
and don't update OS or APPS unmless security issues arise like WinXP
this machine is on Tiger and I am not certain I will update ever
I won't get Windows Vista for at least a year after the launch
I run WinXP via parallels desktop on this Imtel mac too
what kind of work are you doing on the Macs?
regards
Hugh W
Paul Berkowitz
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:
> We have long since demonstrated that we can create a machine with the
> problem by reinstalling OS X from the distribution disk, and installing
> Office 2004 from the MS CD, installing our standard fonts, opening a
> document that uses these fonts and saving it. Doing same again with
> our standard fonts removed, and you don't have the problem. Quite why
> this fails on other machines is a mystery - but suggests to me that if
> we sent over one of our documents and our standard fonts, the rest
> (i.e. a MacIntel reset to its distribution condition, with vanilla
> Office 2004 installed) could be supplied by someone at either MS or
> Apple.
>
> Let me know if you want to do this...
John does not work for either Microsoft nr Apple. (Neither do I.) He's just
an Entourage user like you, who's trying, or hoping, to help. We may be able
to pass on your details to someone at Microsoft, if they haven't seen them
yet. But they probably have. Do not expect someone from Microsoft to reply
here, but they will be looking into the problem. At such time as they are
able to figure it out and get it fixed (whether in-house or by Apple, as the
case may be), an update to office or the OS will be posted. Frustrating as
this may be for you, things don't always get solved right away.
--
Paul Berkowitz
MVP MacOffice
Entourage FAQ Page: <http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq/index.html>
AppleScripts for Entourage: <http://macscripter.net/scriptbuilders/>
Please "Reply To Newsgroup" to reply to this message. Emails will be
ignored.
PLEASE always state which version of Microsoft Office you are using -
**2004**, X or 2001. It's often impossible to answer your questions
otherwise.
Paul Berkowitz
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:
This just seems to be a misunderstanding. John was not following this
newsgroup back in May when you provided the details. You may not be aware,
but with newsgroups, when the server is refreshed as it must be from time to
time to make room for new postings, the older messages are wiped. (Even for
people who _did_ get the earlier messages, the synchronization of your
newsgroup cache with the server means that the earlier will get removed from
the cache at the same. For example, I see no earlier message in this thread
than yours of June 20, 2006, although it is clearly a reply beginning with
Re: . It may be that I too wasn't reading regularly back in May, but I think
it's more likely that the messages were removed from the server since then.)
So even if John went back and reviewed all messages in the tread, he
wouldn't find the original one.
It's clearly very frustrating for you. Perhaps John also doesn't know about
the removal of earlier messages from the server, so he naturally thought you
hadn't provided the details he's asking for. Since John is rather more
expert in this area than most people, he was begged to take a look in this
newsgroup, which he has been decent enough to do. Please don't berate him
for it. It's good you repeated the details, and unfortunate that you had to
repeat yourself. But, just in case those details did not make it to the
right people in Microsoft last time, you can rest assured that they will be
this time. That still does not give any guarantee as to when the issue will
be figured out and fixed. But it will eventually happen.
I think the best thing would be if you just started over from the beginning
and provided the same details you did the first time. No, I can't fix
anything, and am not even knowledgeable in this area. And I don't even have
a MacIntel yet. But the details will be passed on. If John or someone else
wants to elicit further details, I'm sure they'll ask.
Beth Rosengard
It's not necessary for you to repeat any details. I think Paul has gotten
confused. All of your relevant posts in this and the other two threads on
this subject have been passed on to MSFT by one or another of the MVPs and
if they hadn't been, they'd be available via Google Groups whether they were
still on the Microsoft server or not.
The information you have provided has been invaluable and I hope it leads to
a fix soon (though I have no inside knowledge to that effect)!
Regards,
Beth
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
My Site: <http://www.bethrosengard.com>
On 8/3/06 12:48 PM, in article C0F7A116.D96EC%berkowit@spoof_silcom.com,
Gavin Lawrie
> John does not work for either Microsoft nr Apple. (Neither do I.) He's just
> an Entourage user like you, who's trying, or hoping, to help. We may be able
> to pass on your details to someone at Microsoft, if they haven't seen them
> yet. But they probably have.
Yes, I know. I was indeed directing the comment at any Apple or MS
lurkers watching...
G.
John McGhie [MVP -- Word and Word Mac]
Unfortunately, there's nothing they are allowed to say. The fix will turn
up in System Update, eventually...
Cheers
--
John McGhie <jo...@mcghie.name>
Consultant Technical Writer, Microsoft MVP (Word, Word for Mac)
Sydney, Australia +61 (0)4 1209 1410
"Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2006080400402516807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk...
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
On 2/8/06 9:28 AM, in article #xV7yIct...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl, "Hugh
Watkins" <hugh.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am new on the group
Welcome! Good to have you with us.
> so I am blowed if i will read lots of old files
In which case, we're blowed if we can be bothered to help you!
Sorry: let me explain... :-) We're all volunteers in here. Every now and
then, someone from Microsoft, Apple or Design Science will cruise by, but
they will clearly identify themselves. Everyone else is in here for the
love of it. If you make an effort to help yourself, we'll move mountains to
help you.
If you expect us to retype today an answer that we typed out for someone
else last week, well, you may be waiting a while :-) We deeply appreciate
those who have first read the help, and then search this groups for their
answer before posting a question.
Those who hang around and add their contribution to help others... Well,
that's what we really hope everyone will do.
This place is like a rowdy pub: people who come in and offer to buy us a
drink have a great time. Those who start throwing their weight around
demanding "service" sometimes get overlooked somehow :-)
> so pleas briefly define the problem
See the Subject Line for this thread. That's about as briefly defined as it
gets :-)
>
> the trick with ny macintosh is to freeze old machines OS and software
> once they work well
That's good advise for *any* computer, provided you keep up with the
security patches. However, in this specific case, the people with this
problem have brand new computers, and they are NOT working well yet :-)
This is a bug in Apple's ATSUI routine, which draws Unicode characters on
screen (among other things).
> what kind of work are you doing on the Macs?
Who? We're all sorts in here. I am a consultant documentation engineer: I
usually work with single Word documents in the range one to five thousand
pages, and knowledge bases up to around 30-35,000 pages.
Currently, I'm working for a large Telephone company.
And you?
gruth
to 10.5. I am quite curious if this problem crops up on 10.5.
Relatedly, any news on when 10.4.8 might be released -- and more
importantly, any inside scoop on whether that release will address the
problem? Apple's boards are dead on this right now, at least to the
best of my searching ability.
Also: my current workaround has been to set font subtitution as a
program-wide default in Word. However, I have a LOT of files with
MathType files embedded, and Word also crashes on save when any of
these files contain AGaramond. Modifying these files to not contain
AGaramond will be a giant pain in the ass because I'll have to change
the fonts in each equation separately -- at least, I think this is
true. Can anyone give any insight into a better way of doing this.
Thanks much,
Geoff
Elliott Roper
gruth <geof...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is a longshot, but is anyone reading this a developer with access
> to 10.5. I am quite curious if this problem crops up on 10.5.
>
> Relatedly, any news on when 10.4.8 might be released -- and more
> importantly, any inside scoop on whether that release will address the
> problem? Apple's boards are dead on this right now, at least to the
> best of my searching ability.
>
> Also: my current workaround has been to set font subtitution as a
> program-wide default in Word. However, I have a LOT of files with
> MathType files embedded, and Word also crashes on save when any of
> these files contain AGaramond. Modifying these files to not contain
> AGaramond will be a giant pain in the ass because I'll have to change
> the fonts in each equation separately -- at least, I think this is
> true. Can anyone give any insight into a better way of doing this.
Gaack! I have a Mac Pro on order and just about every style of mine
uses Adobe Garamond Premier Pro unless it has a good excuse.
Which AGaramond is giving you grief? Font Book get info for precise
version?
I don't have access to the 10.5 preview, but I might know someone who
has. I'll make sure I can reproduce the problem on mine when it arrives
and then I'll construct a test document. Besides I probably gotta wait
till he gets over the jet lag, gets his Macca back together after UK
security STASI crushed it in hold baggage and then sent it to Frankfurt
and back by truck.
--
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
OK. Let's do the easy one first :-)
To substitute AGaramond in a document, REMOVE the font from your machine,
then click Word>Preferences>Compatibility>Font Substitution.
It will tell you the font is missing and offer to substitute something else.
If you don't like its suggestion, choose something else. Click "Change
Permanently".
If you use styles for formatting, change the Font in each of the styles you
use. Don't forget to check "Add to Template" when you do.
Chances are you will find the equations are formatted by styles (if Equation
Editor/ MathType did them...). In which case, you need change only the
styles. However, you will have to do it in each document: fonts and styles
are stored locally in each document.
However, if you save the style changes to the template after the first
document, you can make the change instantly in all subsequent documents.
Open each document and go to Tools>templates and Add-ins and choose
"Automatically update styles on Open". Click it ON, then click it OFF
again. All document styles will be instantly updated to those in the
template. So you better be sure they'll all good: there's no 'UNDO' :-)
Now for the difficult bit :-)
You're trying to find out "when" this bug will be fixed (if ever!). Right.
So are we.
The world is divided into two kinds of people: those who know if and/or when
this bug will be fixed, and those who don't.
The ones that DO know have signed a legal agreement not to tell us. That
legal agreement holds good in 186 national jurisdictions across the world,
and ensures that anyone who breaks it will never work again in the software
industry, after they get out of jail. I know this, because I have signed
several :-)
It's somewhat unfair of you to try to guilt-trip such people into disclosing
such information to you. It's not a nice thing to do. However, anyone
feeble-minded enough to fall for it is so stupid they would probably give
you the wrong information anyway! So it's not a highly productive strategy
either :-)
The ones that DON'T know, can't tell us either :-) Despite all the
Non-Disclosure Agreements I have signed, I'm one of those: I don't know!
Sorry about that :-)
Cheers
On 16/8/06 3:03 PM, in article
1155704590.3...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
Paul Berkowitz
Roper" <nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
> I don't have access to the 10.5 preview, but I might know someone who
> has. I'll make sure I can reproduce the problem on mine when it arrives
> and then I'll construct a test document. Besides I probably gotta wait
> till he gets over the jet lag, gets his Macca back together after UK
> security STASI crushed it in hold baggage and then sent it to Frankfurt
> and back by truck.
Sounds like fun. ;-) What's a Macca?
Elliott Roper
<berkowit@spoof_silcom.com> wrote:
> On 8/16/06 2:21 AM, in article 160820061021130346%nos...@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
> Roper" <nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I don't have access to the 10.5 preview, but I might know someone who
> > has. I'll make sure I can reproduce the problem on mine when it arrives
> > and then I'll construct a test document. Besides I probably gotta wait
> > till he gets over the jet lag, gets his Macca back together after UK
> > security STASI crushed it in hold baggage and then sent it to Frankfurt
> > and back by truck.
>
> Sounds like fun. ;-) What's a Macca?
Sorry, I slipped into Strine for a moment. Macintosh. Also known as a
PBoko after a famous typo on uk.com.sys.mac, where today, Apple's next
operating system has become "Leotard"
John McGhie [MVP -- Word and Word Mac]
You've been away too long...
*Correctly* a "Macca" is some revolting grease and salt-laden object made by
Ronnie at Les Golden Arches, otherwise known as "Macca's".
In other words: the Strine term is reserved for a MacDonald's hamburger,
usually, the Big Mac.
Cheers
--
John McGhie <jo...@mcghie.name>
Consultant Technical Writer, Microsoft MVP (Word, Word for Mac)
Sydney, Australia +61 (0)4 1209 1410
"Elliott Roper" <nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote in message
news:160820061602469897%nos...@yrl.co.uk...
Phillip Jones
They were having a disagreement over the pronunciation.
One says Its pronounced Kiss-i-me.
The other no it key-seem-e!
Finally they decided to go into a restaurant to find out.
They go up to the order counter and ask a person working the counter.
How do you pronounce this place?
Counter person answers: "Can ... you ... say ... Mac ... Donald's?? ;-)
John McGhie [MVP -- Word and Word Mac] wrote:
> Elliott:
>
> You've been away too long...
>
> *Correctly* a "Macca" is some revolting grease and salt-laden object made by
> Ronnie at Les Golden Arches, otherwise known as "Macca's".
>
> In other words: the Strine term is reserved for a MacDonald's hamburger,
> usually, the Big Mac.
>
> Cheers
>
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phillip M. Jones, CET |LIFE MEMBER: VPEA ETA-I, NESDA, ISCET, Sterling
616 Liberty Street |Who's Who. PHONE:276-632-5045, FAX:276-632-0868
Martinsville Va 24112 |pjo...@kimbanet.com, ICQ11269732, AIM pjonescet
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's "fixed", don't "break it"!
mailto:pjo...@kimbanet.com
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/90th_Birthday/index.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Fulcher/default.html>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Harris/default.htm>
<http://www.kimbanet.com/~pjones/Jones/default.htm>
G.@discussions.microsoft.com Aaron G.
While I don't have a cure, I DO have a work-around: disable saving the
preview picture for the documents already in use, and turn this option off
for all future work.
One of Hans de Jong's posts talked about the number of characters in the
document being a factor (and it is) and when I checked the properties of our
problem documents, I noticed the "Save preview picture with this document"
option was checked under "Summary." I unchecked it, and saved a document I
had been unable to on my shiny new MacBook Pro since I got it.
ATSServer is the Apple process involved, but I don't think it's at fault, or
Excel and Power Point would be similarly affected, and they’re not.
When I look at the ATSServer crash log, it looks a lot like an Acrobat crash
log, ending in references to "Binary Images Description" It looks like
ATSServer is trying to render the text for the Word preview. Turn off the
preview and life is good.
Aaron Grice
2.0Ghz MacBook Pro
10.4.7 with Extensis Suitcase 11.0.4
Office 2004, 11.2.6
"Gavin Lawrie" wrote:
> This has been appearing in several posts recently. We've had this
> problem on our intel iMac and MacBook Pro computers. Have done fairly
> extensive screening tests. This is what we have found so far.
>
> 1) OS X 10.4.6 + Office 2004 11.2.3 + Adobe OpenType fonts on PPC macs
> works fine.
> 2) Same set up (identical - we reinstalled our MacBook Pro and did a
> 'user migrate' from a G5 2.3 Dual) on intelMac works fine on all apps
> (e.g. Powerpoint) when OpenType fonts are used.
> 3) Open some Word documents using either of two Adobe OpenType fonts
> (Helvetica Neue LT and Minion Pro) and Word works fine until you try
> and save file. Then, just after you have done any 'do you want to
> overwrite' stuff, and with the progress bar about 5% of way along, you
> get beach ball of death. At this point you can ForceQuit Word - but
> Font handling messed up if you restart without a log-out. If you leave
> it, Word will trigger a cascade crash of all running apps, and then
> throw you out to log-in screen.
> 4) Restart the computer, remove the Adobe OpenType fonts from font
> folder and try again. Word doc using fonts appears with substituted
> fonts, but you can save it OK.
> 5) Put fonts back, try again, and you get the crash.
>
> First thing we did was to check to see if fonts damaged. They are not
> (and they work fine in other Office Apps also, and without problem on
> PPC macs).
>
> To check out other possible causes, we've tried reinstalling Office
> (back to 11.0), and reinstalling OS X (back to 10.4.5), and both
> together. Behaviour seems consistent in all of these cases.
>
> Others have reported that replacing OpenType versions of fonts with TTF
> version solves problem (e.g. ITC Garamond problem reported recently).
> We are currently trying to source TTF equivalents of our OpenType fonts
> to test this.
>
> Only thing that we are not sure about is why some (old) versions of
> documents that use some of the OpenType fonts do appear to work in Word
> - as in, you can save them on MacIntel machines. Initially we thought
> this indicated that some of our MacIntels had the problem and others
> not, but rather it seems they all behave similarly. When we get time
> we'll try a test where we see if we can isolate if it is one specific
> font file that is causing problem.
>
> Either way this should not be happening, and so this looks like a
> genuine bug in Word 2004 when it is run on MacIntel hardware. Would be
> grateful if either someone MVP ish could report this to whomsoever can
> fix it, or post details of how I can do this. Also would be very
> helpful to find out if others can reproduce this problem.
>
> Thanks for whatever help is available on this.
>
>
Beth Rosengard
board. Will those of you who have been suffering from this nasty bug please
try Aaron's workaround and report back with your results.
Thanks!
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
My Site: <http://www.bethrosengard.com>
On 8/20/06 2:47 PM, in article
7EE506ED-BD83-4C43...@microsoft.com, "Aaron G." <Aaron
John McGhie [MVP -- Word and Word Mac]
be a huge leap forward.
The Preview Picture is utterly without value to most folks: it just creates
file float and most people should have it turned off (seeinga low-res bitmap
of the first page of most documents does NOT add useful information: the
document title is often not even visible).
Cheers
--
John McGhie <jo...@mcghie.name>
Consultant Technical Writer, Microsoft MVP (Word, Word for Mac)
Sydney, Australia +61 (0)4 1209 1410
"Aaron G." <Aaron G.@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:7EE506ED-BD83-4C43...@microsoft.com...
Gavin Lawrie
G.@discussions.microsoft.com> said:
> While I don't have a cure, I DO have a work-around: disable saving the
> preview picture for the documents already in use, and turn this option
> off for all future work.
Hi Aaron,
Can confirm your work-around seems to work here on our iMacs. Sorry
for delay in responding - just back from vacation and saw message.
Will do more extensive testing tomorrow, and include our MacPro's - but
past experience suggests they behave identically to our Intel iMacs.
Wonderful find - not only will it fix our problem in short term
(assuming it scales) but also should make the finding of a cure quicker
too.
Regards and Thanks
Gavin Lawrie
Beth Rosengard
well as Aaron's OP a few days ago).
Thanks!
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
My Site: <http://www.bethrosengard.com>
On 8/22/06 3:06 PM, in article 2006082223062016807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk,
Scott Melendez
Great summary of the issue. I have almost identical experience; I’m glad someone is more organized than me to compile it.
Minion Pro is our default font for the Normal template, and we have quite an investment in OpenType fonts. While I have access to Type 1 versions, it’s a hassle I don’t want to do solely for Word.
Have you been able to test it with any other OT fonts?
--
Regards
Scott Melendez
On 06-02-06 17:01, in article 2006060301013716807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk, "Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:
Mystifying news from the front line...
Waiting for MS to fix the problem (or Apple etc.) is not an option for
us. In theory we can edit the documents with no fonts installed, but
printing them is a bit of a problem. So we've shelled out for a
sub-set of our fonts in Mac PS format to see if this might solve the
problem. Fortunately we only bought a sub-set - we bought the Mac PS
version of Minion Regular, Italic, Bold and Bold Italic from Linotype.
We used the Linotype font utility FontExplorer X (1.0.1) to install
these fonts. We removed all other Minion fonts from the computer
(physical deletion method), and flushed both application and system
font caches (using Linotype utility).
Then the following steps / results happened. I have no explanation for
what happens - hopefully someone can advise / suggest where to go next
with this.
1. First I confirmed that de-activating the Minion fonts worked in same
fashion to removing fonts from font folder. I deactivated Minion,
loaded the test 'crashing' document and tried to do save-as. It saved
just fine.
2. I closed Word. Activated Minion. Opened and saved-as the 'broken'
document. Save-as worked fine.
3. I edited all the 'available styles' in the broken document that used
Minion Pro, changing to the equivalent Minion font. Then I tried to
Save As... the file. I got the same cascade-crash from Word that we've
seen previously and reported on before. Force-quit and restart
computer.
4. I deactivate Minion. Flush system and application font caches. Restart.
5. Open 'broken' document and confirm save-as works OK. It does.
6. I edited styles in broken document, changing styles using Minion Pro
to use Optima (a TrueType font, used simply because it was there)
instead. Then tried to Save As... the file. Save As... works fine.
7. Close Word. Activate Minion. Edit the saved 'Optima' document -
changing styles using Optima to use Minion instead. Try Save As... and
get the cascade crash.
8. Aaaaagh!
9. Reflect on the waste of €120 on PS fonts. Scream again.
10. Wonder what to do next. So step through steps listed above again.
Get exactly same results second time round.
Test computer is an early model MacBook Pro 2.0 with 2.0GB Ram running
10.4.6, Office 2004 (11.2.3), Acrobat Pro 7 and some other apps
installed (e.g. Skpe, Fire etc.). During tests, only Word is open.
So in summary, what do we know now?
1. Under some circumstances documents that work fine on PPC machines
cause Word 2004 to crash during Save As... operations on MacIntel
machines.
2. Removing OpenType fonts used in the document from the font folder
(or equivalent) stops document crashing word when run on MacIntel
hardware.
3. Installing similarly named PS fonts (but not using them) on machine
where OpenType fonts have been removed does not cause crash on Save
As...
4. Editing document to use the substitute PS fonts (Minion rather than
Minion Pro) causes Save As... crash to reappear
5. Editing document to use some other font (Optima rather than Minion
Pro) does not cause Save As... crash
6. Problems are narrowly linked to Word - PowerPoint 2004 (for example)
has no problems using the OpenType fonts.
Help! I really can't think what to do next. Any suggestions would be
really most helpful. Separately, I have confirmed that opening
document using NeoOffice J's Word equivalent seems to work just fine
with OpenType fonts activated: but for various reasons we really are
not keen on running NeoOffice on some machines and Word 2004 on others.
Look forward to hearing suggestions.
Gavin Lawrie
Gavin Lawrie
> Gavin,
>
> Great summary of the issue. I have almost identical experience; I’m glad
> someone is more organized than me to compile it.
Thanks :)
> Minion Pro is our default font for the Normal template, and we have quite an
> investment in OpenType fonts. While I have access to Type 1 versions, it’s a
> hassle I don’t want to do solely for Word.
>
> Have you been able to test it with any other OT fonts?
Yes - our other main font is the Adobe sold OT version of Linotypes
HelveticaNueue (sp) font. Same probls with that one.
However, good news broke just recently - a work around that stops
problem happening. Aaron G. spotted that if you turn off the 'save
preview picture with this document' that appears on the File |
Properties | Summary dialog box the problem goes away.
Presumably whatever the problem is, it is related to the preview
picture function.
We've tested this on our Macintel systems (iMacs and MacBookPros) and
it seems to work 100% of time. Kudos to Aaron for spotting this.
Fingers crossed that MS / Apple will use the insight to fix problem
soon.
HTH
Gavin Lawrie
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
May I assume you're putting this on the website? Or do you want me to do
so? :-)
Cheers
On 4/8/06 7:44 AM, in article C0F7BC63.34746%bethro...@earthlink.net,
"Beth Rosengard" <bethro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Hi Gavin,
>
> It's not necessary for you to repeat any details. I think Paul has gotten
> confused. All of your relevant posts in this and the other two threads on
> this subject have been passed on to MSFT by one or another of the MVPs and
> if they hadn't been, they'd be available via Google Groups whether they were
> still on the Microsoft server or not.
>
> The information you have provided has been invaluable and I hope it leads to
> a fix soon (though I have no inside knowledge to that effect)!
>
> Regards,
>
> Beth
--
Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
Beth Rosengard
If you're still around to read this, please contact me privately. The email
address I'm using here is good.
Thanks,
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!*** ... except in this case :-).
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
My Site: <http://www.bethrosengard.com>
On 8/20/06 2:47 PM, in article
7EE506ED-BD83-4C43...@microsoft.com, "Aaron G." <Aaron
gruth
While Aaron's method works for MOST of my documents, I'm still getting
the same hanging behavior (Word gives beachball, other apps quit, fonts
systemwide get weird) in some complex Word documents. In particular
anything with complex tables seems to hang the system. I'm happy to
send anyone a copy of a sample offending doc if they would like.
- Geoff
Beth Rosengard
Passing this on to MSFT.
Thanks,
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
My Site: <http://www.bethrosengard.com>
On 8/26/06 12:36 PM, in article
1156620989.9...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
Yes, please: let's have a sample of one of those document. Please Zip of
Stuff it so it doesn't get damaged in transit.
Also: having turned OFF "Save preview picture..." make sure you make a
small change (add and delete a space...) then SAVE the document to remove
the preview image from the document :-)
Cheers
On 27/8/06 5:36 AM, in article
1156620989.9...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
<geof...@gmail.com> wrote:
--
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
1) Turn "Save preview..." OFF
2) Open document THAT WAS CREATED IN WORD 2004 and has a Preview
3) Save as new file ...
That gets rid of the Preview Image from within the document. After that,
you should be able to Save As normally.
Further testing indicates that this works ONLY with documents created in
Word 2004 for the Mac. I have a document here created in Word 2003 on the
PC. I can't get rid of the preview from those documents...
On the other hand, another user who has not applied the latest Office 2004
updates cannot get rid of existing preview images under any circumstances.
What remains to be proven is whether simply turning the Preview OFF solves
the problem, whether the preview remains in the document or not.
* If the problem is caused simply by the preview image being in the
document, then this work-around will not cure the problem.
* If the problem is that Word is attempting to WRITE TO the Preview, then
turning off the Preview preference will work.
Another strategy you can try is to "Maggie" the document. Copy all but the
last paragraph mark to a brand new document (with Preview turned OFF). That
will definitely remove the preview picture.
Hope this helps
On 27/8/06 11:31 AM, in article C1173306.44749%jo...@mcghie.name, "John
Aaron G.
1) Does the behavior only happen at saving, or while editng the document?
2) Do these documents behave normally (no beachball) on PowerPC hardware?
I apologize in advance if you posted this info earlier and I looked right
past it.
Aaron Grice
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
Yeah, I've asked Geoff for a copy of the document. There are certainly some
strange observations occurring.
While investigating Geoff's post, Beth and I discovered that there are
certain documents from which Word 2004 *can't* remove the Preview Image.
I think that these are documents *created* in PC Word. My observation is
that Word can remove previews only from documents created by Word 2004.
Beth can't confirm that finding.
If you attempt to use Word>File>Open to open documents, as you select each
one, you will see the Preview image in the right pane of the Open Dialog.
If the document has no preview image, the words "Preview not available" will
appear.
Curiouser and curiouser...
On 27/8/06 1:16 PM, in article
587CE385-EC63-43E5...@microsoft.com, "Aaron G."
<Aar...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
--
azalea5
Wow, I don't want to get my hopes up too much, but I just tried several
large Word files using the troublesome font (Bembo 11) that I had first
begun to experience the problem with...and Aaron's workaround seems to
have worked!
I will have to do more testing, but it's very promising so far!
--
azalea5
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.mcse.ms
------------------------------------------------------------------------
View this thread: http://www.mcse.ms/message2283329.html
azalea5
Been giddy as a schoolgirl since the news, and testing nonstop for over
an hour. The coup de grace, which I believe validates this workaround,
is that I had a thousand page document in Pages, which I then exported
to Word, which I then used the font I could 100% always say was
troublesome before (Bembo STD 11pt) and saved it again from Word...no
crash!!! Woo-hoo, thank you all!
PS - I also ran through a bunch of other Adobe OTF and Postscript fonts
and no crashes to report.
gruth
in the old way.
However, when I "maggie" it (as you term it), it works fine. I actually
just selected all test rather than the all-but-last-paragraph approach
you describe. That worked fine.
I'll still send a copy of one of these files.
- G
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
in discovering the work-around...
On 25/8/06 8:31 AM, in article azalea5...@mail.mcse.ms, "azalea5"
<azalea5...@mail.mcse.ms> wrote:
--
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
Selecting "All Text" is NOT a Maggie, and does NOT have any particular
curative powers :-)
The technique popularised by Margaret Secara of the PC Word List (and now
known the world over as "Doing a Maggie") is very specific: the damaged
information that causes Word document problems is stored in the Document
Properties.
The document properties reside in the file below the last paragraph mark in
the document. If you copy that last paragraph mark, you copy the problem
:-)
I'm looking at your file now...
Cheers
On 31/8/06 11:56 AM, in article
1156989363.1...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
OK, your document is inconclusive because:
A) I don't have Agaramond, so it was substituted on my system for Times New
Roman, which has so far not been known to cause problems.
B) I don't have a Macintel. You are one who knows WHY: I depend on Word
(and VBA) for my living...
C) Your document contains MathType equations within table cells. Both
tables and equations are "complex objects" and thus subject to corruption.
So it's possible that your document has one or more corrupt tables or
equations. If it does, copying to a new document may indeed fix the
problem.
Equations are "OLE Objects" which are stored in the same "Document
Properties" container as the Preview Picture. It may be that the Macintel
Preview Font Crash can be caused by equations as well as preview pictures.
It would be interesting to make a copy of one of your crashing documents and
remove from it only the equations...
It wouldn't fix anything, but if it cured the crashes, it would give us
another data point.
Cheers
On 31/8/06 11:56 AM, in article
1156989363.1...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com, "gruth"
<geof...@gmail.com> wrote:
gruth
2) Yes, the same files work fine on a G4 computer.
gruth
behavior with a file only containing a table (which I've sent to you
separately). However, I do agree that the file I sent you is certainly
complex.
I don't like the corrupt idea either, because I have NEVER had problems
with these files on a PPC machine. I routinely create complex files
like this, and I've never encountered this particular style of
crashing.
Also, to reiterate, when I copied the whole thing (select all) into a
new document with preview turned off, it saved fine.
Scott Melendez
How many OTF fonts do you have installed vs. how many Word displays? With my PowerBook, there seemed to be some arbitrary limit on the number of OpenType fonts Office would display. Using a font manager didn’t improve matters, but as I’ve cut down on the number of fonts, I’d like to start replacing the Type 1 versions with the OTF (for better cross-platform exchange).
skitzer
Postscript fonts.
We were told today that is has been fixed and will be in the 10.4.8
update. Are there any developers who have access to the pre-release
builds that could test it?
I do not know if this will also fix OpenType fonts.
-Tracy
> --B_3239861336_2439146
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> X-Google-AttachSize: 5381
>
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <TITLE>Re: Word 2004 + Macintel + Some Adobe OpenType Fonts = Crash on save</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY>
> <FONT FACE="Frutiger LT Std 55 Roman"><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'>Gavin (or anyone),<BR>
> <BR>
> How many OTF fonts do you have installed vs. how many Word displays? With my PowerBook, there seemed to be some arbitrary limit on the number of OpenType fonts Office would display. Using a font manager didn’t improve matters, but as I’ve cut down on the number of fonts, I’d like to start replacing the Type 1 versions with the OTF (for better cross-platform exchange).<BR>
> </SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE="Formata Regular"><BR>
> -- <BR>
> Regards<BR>
> <BR>
> Scott Melendez<BR>
> </FONT><FONT FACE="Frutiger LT Std 55 Roman"><BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> On 06-02-06 17:01, in article 2006060301013716807-gavinlawrie@2gccouk, "Gavin Lawrie" <gavin....@2gc.co.uk> wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT></SPAN><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE="Lucida Sans Std">Mystifying news from the front line...<BR>
> <BR>
> Waiting for MS to fix the problem (or Apple etc.) is not an option for <BR>
> us. In theory we can edit the documents with no fonts installed, but <BR>
> printing them is a bit of a problem. So we've shelled out for a <BR>
> sub-set of our fonts in Mac PS format to see if this might solve the <BR>
> problem. Fortunately we only bought a sub-set - we bought the Mac PS <BR>
> version of Minion Regular, Italic, Bold and Bold Italic from Linotype. <BR>
> We used the Linotype font utility FontExplorer X (1.0.1) to install <BR>
> these fonts. We removed all other Minion fonts from the computer <BR>
> (physical deletion method), and flushed both application and system <BR>
> font caches (using Linotype utility).<BR>
> <BR>
> Then the following steps / results happened. I have no explanation for <BR>
> what happens - hopefully someone can advise / suggest where to go next <BR>
> with this.<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. First I confirmed that de-activating the Minion fonts worked in same <BR>
> fashion to removing fonts from font folder. I deactivated Minion, <BR>
> loaded the test 'crashing' document and tried to do save-as. It saved <BR>
> just fine.<BR>
> 2. I closed Word. Activated Minion. Opened and saved-as the 'broken' <BR>
> document. Save-as worked fine.<BR>
> 3. I edited all the 'available styles' in the broken document that used <BR>
> Minion Pro, changing to the equivalent Minion font. Then I tried to <BR>
> Save As... the file. I got the same cascade-crash from Word that we've <BR>
> seen previously and reported on before. Force-quit and restart <BR>
> computer.<BR>
> 4. I deactivate Minion. Flush system and application font caches. Restart.<BR>
> 5. Open 'broken' document and confirm save-as works OK. It does.<BR>
> 6. I edited styles in broken document, changing styles using Minion Pro <BR>
> to use Optima (a TrueType font, used simply because it was there) <BR>
> instead. Then tried to Save As... the file. Save As... works fine.<BR>
> 7. Close Word. Activate Minion. Edit the saved 'Optima' document - <BR>
> changing styles using Optima to use Minion instead. Try Save As... and <BR>
> get the cascade crash.<BR>
> 8. Aaaaagh!<BR>
> 9. Reflect on the waste of €120 on PS fonts. Scream again.<BR>
> 10. Wonder what to do next. So step through steps listed above again. <BR>
> Get exactly same results second time round.<BR>
> <BR>
> Test computer is an early model MacBook Pro 2.0 with 2.0GB Ram running <BR>
> 10.4.6, Office 2004 (11.2.3), Acrobat Pro 7 and some other apps <BR>
> installed (e.g. Skpe, Fire etc.). During tests, only Word is open.<BR>
> <BR>
> So in summary, what do we know now?<BR>
> <BR>
> 1. Under some circumstances documents that work fine on PPC machines <BR>
> cause Word 2004 to crash during Save As... operations on MacIntel <BR>
> machines.<BR>
> 2. Removing OpenType fonts used in the document from the font folder <BR>
> (or equivalent) stops document crashing word when run on MacIntel <BR>
> hardware.<BR>
> 3. Installing similarly named PS fonts (but not using them) on machine <BR>
> where OpenType fonts have been removed does not cause crash on Save <BR>
> As...<BR>
> 4. Editing document to use the substitute PS fonts (Minion rather than <BR>
> Minion Pro) causes Save As... crash to reappear<BR>
> 5. Editing document to use some other font (Optima rather than Minion <BR>
> Pro) does not cause Save As... crash<BR>
> 6. Problems are narrowly linked to Word - PowerPoint 2004 (for example) <BR>
> has no problems using the OpenType fonts.<BR>
> <BR>
> Help! I really can't think what to do next. Any suggestions would be <BR>
> really most helpful. Separately, I have confirmed that opening <BR>
> document using NeoOffice J's Word equivalent seems to work just fine <BR>
> with OpenType fonts activated: but for various reasons we really are <BR>
> not keen on running NeoOffice on some machines and Word 2004 on others.<BR>
> <BR>
> Look forward to hearing suggestions.<BR>
> <BR>
> Gavin Lawrie<BR>
> <BR>
> </FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE='font-size:12.0px'><FONT FACE="Lucida Sans Std"><BR>
> </FONT></SPAN>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
>
>
> --B_3239861336_2439146--
John McGhie [MVP -- Word and Word Mac]
Well, again I see nothing much wrong with your second document either (the
one without the equations...).
However, what I was trying to find out was what was causing the problems
with the documents you have problems with. Removing equations is a first
step. Equations are a very complex OLE object which corrupts easily. If
you remove the equations and the problem does not go away, it wasn't that!
We have a data point :-)
You said the problem is fixed by copying into a new document, not Maggying.
That means the problem is not certain kinds of document property corruption.
If it had been corrupt document properties, what you did would not have
fixed the document but a Maggie would do so. We get another data point :-)
My next suggestion after removing the equations would have been to rebuild
each of the tables. The second document you sent also had tables in it.
Tables are another complex object that corrupts easily. If we convert each
of the tables to text, then back to a table again, that might fix the
problem. If it does, we have another data point. If copying all of the
text to another document fixes the problem, then it is *likely* that the
problem is corrupt tables.
But if that did not fix the probem either, then the problem would seem more
likely to be the Agarramond font.
I also routinely create documents far more complex than these two, so as you
say, there is no particular reason why this document should fail. I've
tested your documents in Word 2004 on a G4 and Word 2003: I can't see any
reason they should fail. So I am strongly suspicious that the problem is
the ATS Font Crash issue.
BTW: This thread is mis-titled. This bug is not related to Adobe fonts or
OpenType fonts per se. It's the presence of certain glyphs in *a font used
in the document*, no matter how they are encoded (we have reports in TTF,
OTF and PostScript) . The problem has so far been reported in fonts from
Adobe and LinoType, but not Apple or Microsoft ones. Of course, that
doesn't mean that Apple and Microsoft fonts are immune, it just means nobody
has reported the problem in fonts from those suppliers yet!
The problem does not appear to occur if the document does not include a
Preview Image. Save Preview Image seems to be the installation default in
Mac Word 2004, which is why this problem is quite widespread.
Hope this helps
--
John McGhie <jo...@mcghie.name>
Consultant Technical Writer, Microsoft MVP (Word, Word for Mac)
Sydney, Australia +61 (0)4 1209 1410
"gruth" <geof...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1157038612.4...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
Beth Rosengard
MacIntels/Word 2004 would be willing to test Geoff's problem docs on your
systems and see if you too get the crashes? If you do *not*, using the very
same doc(s) (and with the Preview preference turned off), then that would be
another data point (as John says :-). Specifically, it would eliminate
anything idiosyncratic to Geoff's system as the cause of the crashes.
Geoff: Any problem sending one of the "crash" docs to another user to test?
If Geoff is okay with this, are there any volunteers?
--
***Please always reply to the newsgroup!***
Beth Rosengard
MacOffice MVP
Mac Word FAQ: <http://word.mvps.org/Mac/WordMacHome.html>
My Site: <http://www.bethrosengard.com>
On 8/31/06 11:58 PM, in article #2AmHQZz...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl, "John
Elliott Roper
<bethro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I have a suggestion here. Is it possible that one of you other folks on
> MacIntels/Word 2004 would be willing to test Geoff's problem docs on your
> systems and see if you too get the crashes? If you do *not*, using the very
> same doc(s) (and with the Preview preference turned off), then that would be
> another data point (as John says :-). Specifically, it would eliminate
> anything idiosyncratic to Geoff's system as the cause of the crashes.
>
> Geoff: Any problem sending one of the "crash" docs to another user to test?
>
> If Geoff is okay with this, are there any volunteers?
I'll give it a go. I had to send my first Mac Pro back. It was DOA. But
I expect the next one early next week. I am very interested in getting
to the bottom of this problem pretty quickly.
If it is supposed to be fixed in OS X 10.2.8 I will be one of the first
to test it. I don't have a developer seed, but I see no reason not to
leap straight into it as soon as it is public. My new machine won't be
carrying too much historical baggage.
--
To de-mung my e-mail address:- fsnospam$elliott$$
PGP Fingerprint: 1A96 3CF7 637F 896B C810 E199 7E5C A9E4 8E59 E248
Beth Rosengard
Thanks, Elliott.
Beth
P.S. You meant OS X 10.4.8, I'm sure. But you'd test it first in the
current 10.4.7, right?
On 9/1/06 3:41 PM, in article 010920062341114879%nos...@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
Elliott Roper
<bethro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Great. Geoff, what do you say?
>
> Thanks, Elliott.
>
> Beth
>
> P.S. You meant OS X 10.4.8, I'm sure. But you'd test it first in the
> current 10.4.7, right?
Oops yes, and yes respectively.
PS my mouseless Word essay is coming along nicely. Putting my money
where my mouse was, I'm trying to write it without. That is harder than
I thought it would be.
John McGhie [MVP - Word and Word Macintosh]
leave all those knobs and levers and dials where the manufacturer put them,
too :-)
On 2/9/06 6:29 PM, in article 020920060929051354%nos...@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
Roper" <nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <C11E171C.36B31%bethro...@earthlink.net>, Beth Rosengard
> <bethro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Great. Geoff, what do you say?
>>
>> Thanks, Elliott.
>>
>> Beth
>>
>> P.S. You meant OS X 10.4.8, I'm sure. But you'd test it first in the
>> current 10.4.7, right?
>
> Oops yes, and yes respectively.
> PS my mouseless Word essay is coming along nicely. Putting my money
> where my mouse was, I'm trying to write it without. That is harder than
> I thought it would be.
--
Please reply to the newsgroup to maintain the thread. Please do not email
Elliott Roper
> "Elliott Roper" <nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
> > PS my mouseless Word essay is coming along nicely. Putting my money
> > where my mouse was, I'm trying to write it without. That is harder than
> > I thought it would be.
> leave all those knobs and levers and dials where the manufacturer put them,
> too :-)
knobs in the right places.
Beth Rosengard
Beth
On 9/2/06 1:29 AM, in article 020920060929051354%nos...@yrl.co.uk, "Elliott
Elliott Roper
<nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <C11DEBDC.36AF9%bethro...@earthlink.net>, Beth Rosengard
> <bethro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > I have a suggestion here. Is it possible that one of you other folks on
> > MacIntels/Word 2004 would be willing to test Geoff's problem docs on your
> > systems and see if you too get the crashes? If you do *not*, using the very
> > same doc(s) (and with the Preview preference turned off), then that would be
> > another data point (as John says :-). Specifically, it would eliminate
> > anything idiosyncratic to Geoff's system as the cause of the crashes.
> >
> > Geoff: Any problem sending one of the "crash" docs to another user to test?
> >
> > If Geoff is okay with this, are there any volunteers?
>
> I'll give it a go. I had to send my first Mac Pro back. It was DOA. But
> I expect the next one early next week. I am very interested in getting
> to the bottom of this problem pretty quickly.
OK. It's BAAACK! (simple unseated memory on riser. I feel >this big< I
should have been able to see that and fix it myself.)
I have just installed Word on it, and have not yet customised it back
to Elliott's preferences from hell. I have tried to make a crasher, but
it won't. (Left save preview on, and included some OTF text in a 40
page document)
This machine is in an interesting, almost virginal, state. If there is
a sequence of tests anyone wants me to make, speak now, before I muddy
the water too much. I don't mind leaving Office in a funny state for a
few days, but don't hang back too long.
Even in Rosetta emulation Word is quick. (2.66 Mac Pro with 4GB of
memory. It whoops this little Powerbook.
Beth Rosengard
Roper" <nos...@yrl.co.uk> wrote:
>>> If Geoff is okay with this, are there any volunteers?
>>
>> I'll give it a go. I had to send my first Mac Pro back. It was DOA. But
>> I expect the next one early next week. I am very interested in getting
>> to the bottom of this problem pretty quickly.
>
>
> OK. It's BAAACK! (simple unseated memory on riser. I feel >this big< I
> should have been able to see that and fix it myself.)
>
> I have just installed Word on it, and have not yet customised it back
> to Elliott's preferences from hell. I have tried to make a crasher, but
> it won't. (Left save preview on, and included some OTF text in a 40
> page document)
>
> This machine is in an interesting, almost virginal, state. If there is
> a sequence of tests anyone wants me to make, speak now, before I muddy
> the water too much. I don't mind leaving Office in a funny state for a
> few days, but don't hang back too long.
>
> Even in Rosetta emulation Word is quick. (2.66 Mac Pro with 4GB of
> memory. It whoops this little Powerbook.
Geoff seems to be MIA <shrug>. John McGhie: Don't you have one or two of
Geoff's problem docs that you could forward to Elliott?
Beth