why>?
aaron...@gmail.com
how do you survive the 65k row limit?
it just boggles my mind; i hate excel more than anything
i think that all your spreadsheet dorks should be homeless; on the side
of the street--
-Aaron
Don Guillett
We hate it also.
That is, until we get the no limit on rows
Many of us are homeless. Contributions are welcome.
Send all to me and I will spend it on Wild Turkey.
--
Don Guillett
SalesAid Software
dguil...@austin.rr.com
<aaron...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148332296.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
DS-NTE
Because if I have to use more than 65536 rows I use Access
Because my boss gives me a big smile when I make sth fancy for her in excel
Because that really turns me on
Because I save my coworkers many hours of work when making a nice and
usefull workbook
Because....
Because....
Because...
Because in this newsgroup you usually meet polite and very helpfull people
Because in this newsgroup you usually meet polite and very helpfull people
Because in this newsgroup you usually meet polite and very helpfull people
Because in this newsgroup you usually meet polite and very helpfull
people!!!!!!
<aaron...@gmail.com> skrev i melding
news:1148332296.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
aaron...@gmail.com
i dont understand; do they spawn you guys in grade school?
where did you guys learn that it's socially acceptable to use this
ridiculous program??
Harlan Grove
Evolution is hard. If there are a lot more Excel users than Access or
DBMS users, there'll be more Excel users to reproduce. After a few
generations, the point becomes moot. Maybe velociraptors were better
creatures by most objective criteria, but humans and rats (who share
common ancestors, for some perhaps not all that remote) have the planet
today. Fairness and objectivity have nothing to do with it.
Adapt or die.
vandenberg p
Because for people who know how to use a spreadsheet appropriately, the 65K limit is
meaningless. But then give the quality of the capitalizations in your post (it appears you
could not find the shift key on the keyboard) you probably would have problems with the 65K
limit.
Pieter Vandenberg
aaron...@gmail.com <aaron...@gmail.com> wrote:
: why do you guys use excel?
aaron...@gmail.com
aaron...@gmail.com
it is a glass ceiling that you're stuck with and you can't do anything
about.
it's a travesty that you guys can't do anything with large datasets.
im not saying 'its not fair'
im saying that i dont understand why new people continue to get into
excel; but they won't get into Access or SQL Server.
i've never been at a company that has half of the sql server people
that we need.
but everywhere i've been; everyone knows excel.
is it the colleges that do this to us?
i just dont understand the value proposition.
i claim that if you build a database; and you build reports off of this
data; then you have the freedom to grow this into a larger, more
critical application.
i dont see oracle having an excel upsizing wizard anytime soon.
i just dont understand why you guys use excel; it seems to me like it's
a dead end street.
once you have a xls that is 10mb; what are you supposed to do with it?
you can't email it around.. you can't burn it onto a CD (since it has
countless paths to other spreadsheets; etc)
i just wish that excel had some real reporting capabilities.
i dont like shrink to fit; i think that it needs about 10x more
options.
i dont like pulling data OUT of excel. it never works.
i dont like pivotTables in Excel; they are much much much more powerful
in Office Web Components and they're faster and more portable.
i think that im going to make a real application where office web
components -- just a shell around owc where people can save their
spreadsheets in XML format TODAY.
not in office 2007.
today--
maybe i'll make an addin for access that makes owc act and behave just
like a normal form or report.
so that i can spoonfeed you kids into using a real -- tangible--
portable-- efficient system.
i just dont get the ROI that all you guys have spent millions upon
billions of hours in creating spreadsheets-- what is supposed to happen
to those spreadsheets when your company merges?
you sit there and recreate stuff by hand 24x7.
i re-use functionality; i re-use tables in hundreds of applications.
excel is worthless from what i see; and i just dont understand why
newbies use excel.
is it easier to use than accesss? NO.
is it better, longterm than access? NO.
does it scale, does it utilize multiple processors?
will excel 2007 allow 2 people to edit the same spreadsheet??
Harlan Grove
>yeah evolution is hard you idiot excel users need to evolve or die
The dinosaur telling the rodent to evolve. Let's just wait a bit and
count numbers of users. Won't prove which is better, but in the end
that doesn't matter.
aaron...@gmail.com
you idiots copy and paste the same function a trillion friggin times a
year and you call me obsolete?
copy and paste
followed by more
copy and paste
followed by more
copy and paste
followed by more
copy and paste
followed by more
copy and paste
followed by more
copy and paste
followed by more
copy and paste
doesn't it have an endpoint?
isn't there supposed to be a happy ending for excel dorks?
how many times per day do you copy and paste?
how many excel virii have been found-- in the wild?
yes, i am a dinosaur.
in the same context that a mainframe is a dinosaur.
IBM takes databases very very seriously.
i just wish that there were more than 1 type of spreadsheet program;
maybe microsoft would have some incentives to make it better.
as it is; it's just ridiculous that microsoft hasn't added any new
funcitonaliy to excel in 10 years and you script kiddies sit there and
still use it.
if Microsoft were to take Excel-- and pull an ADP- keep all the data in
SQL Server and render is in a XLP file-- then maybe i would let you
guys keep on abusing you companies.. by submitting timecard after
timecard.. you claim that you do 'work'
when all you do is copy and paste.
you guys have thousands of copies of similiar functions; different
arguments.
if the UN were to change the calendar; and now we have 13 months-- then
all you kids will have to do about a billion things to make your
spreadsheets work.
i only have to change something in one place.
it's all about centralization; and i can do more work than 100
spreadsheet dorks.
i can leverage existing data.
you guys copy and paste existing data.
don't get me wrong-- i've seen some really really exciting solutions
using VSTO.
this is at least a step in the right direction.
but it's not fast enough ; it's not integrated-- and it's impossible to
purchase.
can't MS just include the vsto toolset with excel or something; give it
FUNCTIONALITY?
can't MS include some 'for each worksheet' functions?
i am just stunnned that the disease that is known as excel-- hasn't
been eradicated.
why doesn't the bill and melinda gates foundation give us all a vaccine
against Excel?
pay for all you kids to learn a real tool-- like SQL Server or Crystal
Reports or ASP or something?
Harlan Grove
>yeah. the dinosaur is me?
Got it in one! You're improving. Perhaps there's hope after all.
>you idiots copy and paste the same function a trillion friggin times a
>year and you call me obsolete?
>
>copy and paste
>followed by more
>copy and paste
>followed by more
>copy and paste
>followed by more
>copy and paste
>followed by more
>copy and paste
>followed by more
>copy and paste
>followed by more
>copy and paste
No doubt you actually typed all the forgoing.
>doesn't it have an endpoint?
...
Do your useless posts in Excel newsgroups? Entropy is forever.
>how many excel virii have been found-- in the wild?
Not all that many. More Word viruses than Excel ones because, surprise,
there are more .DOC files than .XLS files. Virus writers target the
most used applications in order to get the greatest effect. Start
giving the average business PC user more than just read access to
server-based DBMSs and you give virus writers new incentives to target
DBMSs. At the very least, Excel and Word serve as useful decoys.
>yes, i am a dinosaur.
>in the same context that a mainframe is a dinosaur.
Much more in the Control Data Corp sense than the IBM one.
>IBM takes databases very very seriously.
And it also sells a spreadsheet, Lotus 123. Your point being?
>i just wish that there were more than 1 type of spreadsheet program;
>maybe microsoft would have some incentives to make it better.
Now we agree on something. Nothing works as well as market share below
60% to get Microsoft to do anything worthwhile. Without competition,
Excel will get SmartArt and color gradients and a bigger grid that'll
cause more problems than it'll solve.
BTW, do you have any idea how many fields per table Access 2007 will
provide? Excel 2007 will have 16,384 columns. If Access doesn't keep
up, there'll be worse headaches coming.
>as it is; it's just ridiculous that microsoft hasn't added any new
>funcitonaliy to excel in 10 years and you script kiddies sit there and
>still use it.
Unfair. They added the OLAP cube interface and VBA6 in Excel 2K. Both
significant. However, nothing to warrant more than a minor version
number increase since then.
>if Microsoft were to take Excel-- and pull an ADP- keep all the data in
>SQL Server and render is in a XLP file-- then maybe i would let you
>guys keep on abusing you companies.. by submitting timecard after
>timecard.. you claim that you do 'work'
...
Ah, so you're still nonexempt. That explaims much.
>if the UN were to change the calendar; and now we have 13 months-- then
>all you kids will have to do about a billion things to make your
>spreadsheets work.
>
>i only have to change something in one place.
In the DBMS source code. Unless, of course, someone happened to
hardcode the former 12 month names for a drop-down list, in which case
you'd need to check all your forms and revise as needed.
>it's all about centralization; and i can do more work than 100
>spreadsheet dorks.
...
If only most spreadsheet users did the same, dull, dead-end grunt work
you do.
>can't MS include some 'for each worksheet' functions?
...
You mean something other than
For Each ws In SomeWorkbook.Worksheets
?
Does VSTO completely ignore Excel's object model, or are you just
ignorant of what Excel's OM provides?
aaron...@gmail.com
you kids have to write scripts to do anything useful.
it should be built into the product.
i've written hundreds, if not thousands of pages of excel automation.
I just strongly dis-agree with your worldview, Harlan
Start
giving the average business PC user more than just read access to
server-based DBMSs and you give virus writers new incentives to target
DBMSs. At the very least, Excel and Word serve as useful decoys.
Databases are your friends.
Databases get shit done.
Spreadsheets are just frilly bullshit; you guys build these obnoxious
extravagent solutions.. and then you call in a programmer to do all the
heavy lifting.
it would be much better-- long term-- to have all you spreadsheet kids
starting the db design-- and then you can call in the heavy programmer
to do all the heavy work.
And instead of needing to rewrite everything and spend half my time
syncing with a goddamn spreadsheet
Excel isn't useful for data entry
Excel isn't useful for reporting
Excel isn't useful for data storage
i just dont understand the point of excel.
it's not as easy to use as Crystal Reports
it's not as powerful as Crystal Reports
it's not as simple as Crystal Reports
As a business executive; i find investing in Excel a complete and utter
waste of time.
And I'm just dumbfounded that you guys are breeding.
Excel is the worlds best birth control
because you have to terminal in at 10pm and wait until charlie is out
of his spreadsheet
i mean
what the hell guys what a waste of time
Don Guillett
--
Don Guillett
SalesAid Software
dguil...@austin.rr.com
"Harlan Grove" <hrl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1148412519.6...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Harlan Grove
>yeah i mean a function
Since you seem incapable of following basic USENET conventions by
quoting relevant material to which you're responding, I'll assume you
mean your 'for each worksheet' functions. Who needs a function? They're
already available as .Worksheets properties (as collection objects) of
Workbook objects. If you REALLY, REALLY need a function,
Function PablumForDullAaron(wb As Workbook) As Object
PablumForDullAaron = wb.Worksheets
End Function
Voila! Now you have a function rather than an object property. Happy?
If not, wanna try explaining what you want, or are you also incapable
of writing understandable specs?
>i've written hundreds, if not thousands of pages of excel automation.
...
Written, perhaps. Understood, doesn't look like it.
>I just strongly dis-agree with your worldview, Harlan
...
As per usual, your distorted misunderstanding of what you claim is my
worldview.
>Databases get shit done.
Yes. If we believe you're a database expert, your statement above is
beyond dispute. But can *you* get *work* done?
>Spreadsheets are just frilly bullshit; you guys build these obnoxious
>extravagent solutions.. and then you call in a programmer to do all the
>heavy lifting.
Never needed someone else to do my programming so far. Got anything you
need help with?
>it would be much better-- long term-- to have all you spreadsheet kids
>starting the db design-- and then you can call in the heavy programmer
>to do all the heavy work.
Really?! To repeat a question you've never been able or willing to
answer before, if MOST of the data used in a particular model comes
from CUSTOMERS with whom there are NO direct database connections, how
would database feeds be of any use? To repeat my real world situation,
I get most of the data I use from e-mail sent by customers either
within the body text of the e-mail or as Word, Excel, PDF or plain text
file attachments. How would databases be of any more use extracting
data than the automation tools provided by Excel?
>Excel isn't useful for data entry
Debatable. It can be much better for data entry than databases for
nontabular data.
>Excel isn't useful for reporting
You may have a point here. If I ever fall back to doing what I was
doing 15 or so years ago, I'll try to use Excel as little as possible
for this.
>Excel isn't useful for data storage
It's not efficient if disk space usage is the primary objective. It's
much more flexible if data needs to be shared by offline users. Yes,
copying files is easier than replicating databases.
>i just dont understand the point of excel.
No kidding?!
>it's not as easy to use as Crystal Reports
>it's not as powerful as Crystal Reports
>it's not as simple as Crystal Reports
And if you need to produce reports, you may have a point. You just
can't conceive of doing anything other than produce reports.
>As a business executive; i find investing in Excel a complete and utter
>waste of time.
As a business what?!
aaron...@gmail.com
then you're just a fucking idiot.
CRM, outlook-- all that shit-- keeps data in a database where it
belongs.
i could give a shit about the next version of Excel; the point is that
you assholes have wasted countless hours.
you are guilty of FRAUD for not getting anything valuable done.
someday; there is going to be an enron-style collapse when we all
realize how worthless a spreadsheet-centric 'skillset-- i get such a
chuckle out of calling it that; it really is a lack of a skillset is
why you dumbasses use excel'
someday we're all going to realize how worthless you spreadsheet dorks
are
and out on the street; hundreds of thousands of 'financial analysts'--
gag-- are going to be homeless
i can't wait to laugh at you idiots, homeless on the side of the street
a business executive.
I run my own consulting business.
aaron...@gmail.com
Excel will NEVER hold more rows than Access.
aaron...@gmail.com
I use Access Data Projects-- the grown-up version of Access.
-Aaron
aaron...@gmail.com
having your company run out and buy sharepoint?
just so that you dipshits can put spreadsheets on a website instead of
emailing them?
give me a break; the root of the problem is that you dipshits use a
bloated fileformat with no future.
olap pivotTables are the only feature in Excel i give a crap about; and
i use a superior version of Excel called 'office web components'
Harlan Grove
>if you have customer data and it doesnt live in a database
Geez, you're dense!
Not customer tracking or historical transaction data. THEIR nonpublic
financial information that's most definitely not accessible OUTSIDE
THEIR company by ANY connection to THEIR databases, and often subect to
NDAs that essentially PREVENT storing any of THEIR data in any of my
company's databases. THEIR data may come from their databases or maybe
(gasp! shudder!) from their spreadsheets, but provided to me/my company
in the form of e-mail or attachments, never yet in the form of MDB
files and seldom in tabular form, and most definitely NOT AVAILABLE
from MY company's databases.
But this is likely wasted bandwidth since you seem incapable of
understanding that any company works with any data other than what
rolls in from POS or inventory systems. You also seem incapable of
understanding that some business share nonpublic financial data as part
of negociating pricing for certain long-term financial services
contracts. One company's nonpublic financial information damn well
better NOT be available in OTHER comapnies' databases. So this leads to
a concept that you may not be capable of comprehending: businesses
share data without using databases to do so, and often there are legal
obligations NOT to store it in widely accessible databases.
Becoming obvious no one has ever let you come close to important data.
>CRM, outlook-- all that shit-- keeps data in a database where it
>belongs.
...
Not CRM data. Next guess.
>I run my own consulting business.
Not much work right at the moment, eh?
aaron...@gmail.com
so screw yourself; ok?
a) i dont believe that you have mountains and mountains of data that
are strictly prohibited from going inside a database. if you do then
your customers are idiots.
b) even if you do you're a fucking idiot because earlier we
demonstrated that excel virii are a scourage-- making Excel
UN-FRIGGIN-USABLE
c) keeping your data in a spreadsheet in your machine is THUS MORE OF A
THREAT than keeping it in a database
d) if you keep your DATA in tabular form-- in CSM form-- in email
attachments; any of that-- it is TRIVIAL to get it inside a db.
RIGHT-CLICK 'IMPORT'
or
RIGHT-CLICK 'LINK'
Maybe-- just MAYBE the fucking problem is that your company is using
the wrong database engine.
is that my fault?
is it a good excuse for why you guys spin your wheels jerking off to a
spreadsheet format that is CLOSED AND BUGGY AS ALL HELL?
that's the problem with Excel.
IT'S BUGGY AS HELL.
People spend 5 years becoming knowledgeable with Excel-- and then they
are worthless to the company because you have a 1-track SKILLSET.
I've worked with thousands of databases over the years. you touch a
dozen spreadsheets for breakfast; and i touch a dozen databases.
you're not FASTER at excel than i am with databases.
Just because i 'only work with databases' lol (you written any ASP
asshole? php? .net?)
just because i only work with databases-- that doesn't mean i 'only
work with inventory databases' or 'pos databases'
you see-- ALL COMPANIES store ALL OF THEIR DATA in a DATABASE.
anything not stored in a database is worthless to a company.
FUCKING WORTHLESS.
'oh but what about all these silly pdf files and excel files and
project files (ms project IS a database; it's technically using the
same engine as windows and access)
WORTHLESS. Grow some balls and start dealing with data that MULTIPLE
PEOPLE can touch at the same time; kids.
'oh but im so fast at excel' gag
you constantly have to deal with workarounds and crap like that..
because you use a little baby hammer for everything you do.
LOSE THE FUCKING TRAINING WHEELS KIDS!!!
aaron...@gmail.com
better NOT be available in OTHER comapnies' databases. So this leads to
a concept that you may not be capable of comprehending: businesses
share data without using databases to do so, and often there are legal
obligations NOT to store it in widely accessible databases
why do you say 'better not'
what is so fucking offensive about databases ASSHOLE?
'oh, but it's such a security risk to keep things in a database';
but it's somehow BETTER to keep it in a format that's impossible to
safeguard against virii?
were you butt raped by a database when you were a kid?
I tell you firsthand; i was butt-raped by a spreadsheet and i would
rather spit in your face than ever sign your paychecks
Bill Sharpe
Did you rant about Lotus 1-2-3 many years ago?
Bill
aaron...@gmail.com
DATA doesn't come from SPREADSHEETS
DATA comes from DATABASES
what comes from spreadsheets is a worthless tricked out report-- that
you can't leverage; you can't digest a spreadsheet inside your precious
mainframe---
if it was easy to secure excel
if excel had HALF of the reporting capabilites that access had
if there was any value in using excel; i would be doing it.
as it is; im sick and fucking tired of making the same goddamn
spreadsheet week in and week out
and i thought that it was time-- to find someone that could explain to
me-- the ROI for having a dozen spreadsheet dorks on payroll.
WHAT DO YOU __DO__ that adds value?
Are you screwing your boss? Is that why he keeps you around?
it just boggles my mind; there really should be a zoo for you
spreadsheet idiots; because someday soon you'll all be extinct.
aaron...@gmail.com
i went on a sales pitch to the worlds largest e-commerce company; down
in san jose.
they had this SPREADSHEET that was 2 friggin gigabytes.
do you know why?
because they're all stuck without any real database people.
i told those assholes
a) uninstall excel from every machine in the house; fire all your
spreadsheet dorks.
b) grow some balls and stop listening to these con-artist db sales
people (oracle, ibm)
c) sub-second response times from BILLIONS of records. it comes FREE
with a license for SQL Server; it's called 'olap'
they didn't bite.
i'm over it.
they can jerk off to gigabyte spreadsheets for all i fucking care.
i've seen spreadsheets at microsoft that would make you guys shit your
pants.
the most complex BS i've ever seen-- it's a total joke.
you sit there and ACCEPT this limit-- without bitching---
and I haven't had a tangible limit on record count for 10 years now??
i mean seriously; why are you guys mentally retarded??
Harlan Grove
...
>a) i dont believe that you have mountains and mountains of data that
>are strictly prohibited from going inside a database. if you do then
>your customers are idiots.
Wrong. My customers are sensible, so am I, and you're an ignorant idiot
who simply has no basis in your own experience for handling data
without a database, so you react in classic fight or flight mode
because you're out of your depth.
My customers' data is in THEIR databases, but I as an employee of
ANOTHER company DO NOT have access to THEIR databases. Do you know
anything about database security and/or US corporation law with respect
to sharing nonpublic financial information with outsiders that might
help you figure out why this may be a desirable state?
>b) even if you do you're a fucking idiot because earlier we
>demonstrated that excel virii are a scourage-- making Excel
>UN-FRIGGIN-USABLE
Proved?! Where? Provide a link.
Perhaps in your own imagination, but that ain't proof.
>c) keeping your data in a spreadsheet in your machine is THUS MORE OF A
>THREAT than keeping it in a database
If it were YOU 'managing' the data, you'd have a point.
>d) if you keep your DATA in tabular form-- in CSM form-- in email
>attachments; any of that-- it is TRIVIAL to get it inside a db.
Trivial but more often than not pointless if the analysis takes place
in a spreadsheet. Which brings us back to another black hole in your,
er, knowledge: calculations involving either recursive or nested
formulas, i.e., stuff databases can't handle without multiple, possibly
nested, queries. And when the number of such nested queries depends on
the data, it requires nontrivial stored procedures to do what
spreadsheet can handle with relatively simple formulas.
>you're not FASTER at excel than i am with databases.
No, I suppose you could kill forests' worth of reports faster than I
could generate a few numbers. The question remaining is whether the
tons of printout you generate is worth more than the handful of numbers
I produce. Kinda like comparing fertilizer with diamonds - the
principal basis for comparison is value rather than weight or weight
per time unit. I grant you generate much more fertilizer more quickly
than I can.
>Just because i 'only work with databases' lol (you written any ASP
>asshole? php? .net?)
ASP and PHP, nope. .Net, yup, but rarely.
You written any Perl, R, SAS, IBM JCL, WSH scripts coordinating the
execution of all of them?
>just because i only work with databases-- that doesn't mean i 'only
>work with inventory databases' or 'pos databases'
...
I suppose you can handle name & address databases for generating form
letters too.
Harlan Grove
>DATA doesn't come from SPREADSHEETS
>
>DATA comes from DATABASES
No, data exists independent of storage medium/mechanism. But not
surprising that you're limited worldview can't cope with that.
>if there was any value in using excel; i would be doing it.
That assumes you're capable of figuring out how to use Excel beyond the
frustrated novice stage.
>as it is; im sick and fucking tired of making the same goddamn
>spreadsheet week in and week out
...
Someday when you learn how to use Excel you may be able to figure out
how to avoid doing so. Would you like help with that?
aaron...@gmail.com
yeah.. you're right
WSH?
HAHAHAHHAHAHA
that's an object model not a language jackass
yeah i've written tons of WSH scripts... i use the WSH object model
literally 100 times a day.
Perl?
SAS?
what the fuck is SAS
i mean seriously
who do you think that you are?
do you play 'pin the tail on the donkey' to see what vendor you should
buy from this year?
bunch of fucking retards running the show at your company; obviously
maybe instead of being conned by all of these db con artists you should
start listening to the people that are now running the industry
www.olapreport.com
I don't make canned reports buddy; i make pivotTables-- against
terabytes of data-- with sub-second response times.
it looks just like excel-- drag and drop fields-- but it's a web
interface.
traditional excel is dead; from what i've seen.
oh now, recursive formulas??
OLAP JACKASS SOLVES ALL THESE PROBLEMS
for the record, i used to do antivirus -- at MICROSOFT-- and I will
gladly provide you a report that demonstrates the prevalence of Excel
virii vs. word virii vs Access virii.
I have this data.
do you?
aaron...@gmail.com
i have written spreadsheets for years and years and years.
i can run circles around you in excel fucknut
don't knock me just because i dont appreciate your piece of shit
programming language-- that's EXCEL
you guys are all Jr Software Developers; and you don't take it
seriously enough.
anyone that builds excel for a living is a software developer.
it's the most abused drug anywhere.
I just wish that they would start the draft again; get some of your
lamers out in the field
Harlan Grove
>>One company's nonpublic financial information damn well
>>better NOT be available in OTHER comapnies' databases. So this leads to
>>a concept that you may not be capable of comprehending: businesses
>>share data without using databases to do so, and often there are legal
>>obligations NOT to store it in widely accessible databases
>
>why do you say 'better not'
>what is so fucking offensive about databases ASSHOLE?
So you don't really understand English?
Nothing wrong with company X having their own data in databases. Makes
a lot of sense. However, giving people who aren't employees or auditors
of company X access to the tables or views in which company X's
nonpublic financial information is stored or accessed is REALLY POOR
SECURITY. You're the one claiming to be a database professional, so you
should be able to understand this concept. Surely you've encountered
the concept of the benefits of limiting access to sensitive information
sometime over the course of your claimed career.
>'oh, but it's such a security risk to keep things in a database';
No, dummy, it's a security risk to give ANYONE outside your company,
other than your auditors, access - even read-only access - to the
databases that store information that's nonpublic.
Heard about the schmoe from the Dept of Veterans' Affairs who lost data
on all US military personnel discharged since the mid-1970s. Betcha
that data WAS in a database file. Didn't help much, did it?
The point is it's NOT the file format or the permissions or the rights
in isolation. There are ways to keep databases safer than spreadsheets,
but if dumb users can store arbitrarily large and/or sensitive database
queries locally, no server-side security matters.
>but it's somehow BETTER to keep it in a format that's impossible to
>safeguard against virii?
...
An XLS file with a file-open password is safer than any MDB file. If
you need to work OFFLINE with data, whatcha gonna use? Not ADP or any
live ODBC connection.
Harlan Grove
...
>i can run circles around you in excel fucknut
Prove it.
>don't knock me just because i dont appreciate your piece of shit
>programming language-- that's EXCEL
...
No, I'm knocking you because you've never demonstrated ANY competence
using Excel. None. You like to complain, but where's the proof your
problems are anything more than not understanding circular recalc or
why you can't enter numbers if you don't have your NumLock on?
>anyone that builds excel for a living is a software developer.
...
No more so than anyone who uses calculators as part of their jobs is a
calculator application developer. Or no more so than anyone who uses
Word is an author.
Ed
doesn't despise those who fill a different position. You sound like a
teenager whose daddy bought him a big truck -too bad the size of the vehicle
has nothing to do with the size of the person driving it.
I learned Excel just a few years ago because that's what all the people in
my company use, because that's what those they interacted with used. I am
not capable of changing things on that large of a scale. So I learned Excel
and VBA, and have earned some awards within my company for providing Excel
applications to them. Excel fits their need, so that's what I gave them.
Excel was within my grasp at that time, so that's what I've learned. Is
there more out there with bigger and better functions? Sure - and if I need
to I'll learn it. If I don't have to, then why?
Besides, if working with _your_ program makes you that immature, then I'll
stick with Excel and the good people here who've helped me along the way.
Ed
<aaron...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148420657....@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Harlan Grove
...
>WSH?
>HAHAHAHHAHAHA
>that's an object model not a language jackass
Fine. VBScript or JScript.
>yeah i've written tons of WSH scripts... i use the WSH object model
>literally 100 times a day.
How nice for you.
>Perl?
>
>SAS?
>what the fuck is SAS
Since you know squat all about statistics and little as far as I can
tell about mainframes, not surprising you've never heard of the
mainframe stats package with the biggest market share. Since you don't
know what it is, unlikely you have any clue what it does or how to use
it.
>who do you think that you are?
>do you play 'pin the tail on the donkey' to see what vendor you should
>buy from this year?
...
As opposed to 'hire the donkey', er, you?
>I don't make canned reports buddy; i make pivotTables-- against
>terabytes of data-- with sub-second response times.
Because so much is cached. Until the data bus handles terabytes of data
per second, your subsecond response time is an illusion. A very
realistic, probably very useful illusion, but not a sign of actual
processing speed.
>traditional excel is dead; from what i've seen.
Which is what you've written? If Excel users relied on your Excel
abilities, we'd all still be writing applications in BASICA.
Fortunately there are others who know what they're doing.
>oh now, recursive formulas??
>
>OLAP JACKASS SOLVES ALL THESE PROBLEMS
Prove it. How do you generate all permutations of, say, 8 distinct
tokens using OLAP? You haven't managed to answer this yet, just spewed
useless generalities. Show the steps, IN DETAIL, how you'd do it using
OLAP.
>for the record, i used to do antivirus -- at MICROSOFT-- and I will
>gladly provide you a report that demonstrates the prevalence of Excel
>virii vs. word virii vs Access virii.
Go for it. If it's confidential information, maybe we can get rid of
you for a few years. If this were something Microsoft wanted the public
to know, wouldn't it be available by searching all Microsoft domains
for the term 'macro virus' for product 'Office'?
All I have is my own experience: never seen an Excel virus, but have
seen several dozen infected Word files. All kinda pointless. Any
software that can be automated and can install other software or delete
or modify existing files is a potential threat. Heck, anything that can
show urls is a potential threat.
penri0_0
Cool! Geek War!
(self-confessed geek before you all jump on me!)
--
penri0_0
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View this thread: http://www.excelforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=544465
aaron...@gmail.com
you're such a whiney bastard.
permutations = cartesianing.
it's not rocket science.
having olap chew through some cartesians? it's really honestly not
rocket science.
you're a complete and utter fucking renob Harlan.
'oh just because we dont have a terabyte bus'
god you sound just like a friggin crackhead kid
never seen an excel virus; i mean-- come on buddy.
grow up. smoke reality.
yes it is cached. it is all pre-calculated.
i run a simple processing job that takes 10 minutes and it
pre-calculates every PERMUTATION of every number available.
and of course i know what SAS is.
i just don't believe in purchanse SHIT applications like that.
Microsoft gives me all the tools i need; but I'm adamant about the fact
that Excel is for crying whiny babies that can't tie their shoes.
you kids are stuck in the first chapter of a great story-- how can you
proclaim to know the bible when you only have read genesis?
excel is ONE of the first steps.
but you dumbass lamers haven't grown past excel.
and what do you think, lamer?
vbs or java?
do i side with a company with 300 billion dollar market cap; or do i
side with a puny company with a 4 billion dollar market cap.
i'm not even going to grace that stupid ass question with an answer
oh, im 'such a real programmer because im an excel fag and i know how
to spell java'
good for you kid
i get more done before breakfast than you do throughout your entire
career.
aaron...@gmail.com
2) build cubes
3) drag and drop
all of a sudden; presto chango--
I DONT NEED ANY WORTHLESS BEANCOUNTERS ANYMORE!!!!
Harlan Grove
>permutations = cartesianing.
>it's not rocket science.
Wrong. The cartesian of {1,2,3} with itself 2 times includes 27 ordered
triplets
1 1 1
1 1 2
1 1 3
1 2 1
1 2 2
1 2 3
1 3 1
1 3 2
1 3 3
2 1 1
2 1 2
2 1 3
2 2 1
2 2 2
2 2 3
2 3 1
2 3 2
2 3 3
3 1 1
3 1 2
3 1 3
3 2 1
3 2 2
3 2 3
3 3 1
3 3 2
3 3 3
only 6 of which are permutations of the original set
1 2 3
1 3 2
2 1 3
2 3 1
3 1 2
3 2 1
How do you reduce the N^N items generated by an N-cartesian product of
a set of N distinct tokens into the subset of N! permutations? That's
the hard part which you don't seem able to understand or figure out how
to do.
>having olap chew through some cartesians? it's really honestly not
>rocket science.
No, it's not rocket science. Heck, it can be done easily in
spreadsheets.
>never seen an excel virus; i mean-- come on buddy.
Nope. I must work with smarter/safer Excel users than you have. I'll
grant my experience is fortuitous and anecdotal.
>yes it is cached. it is all pre-calculated.
Fine if nothing changes. Wanna cite some of the web pages dealing with
setting up such caches that discuss the hours of server processing time
setting up those caches? Or the ones dealing with processing time for
ad hoc calculations that can't use cached values?
>i run a simple processing job that takes 10 minutes and it
>pre-calculates every PERMUTATION of every number available.
No it doesn't. Even with just a million different numbers, all the
computers on earth couldn't store the 1000000! permutations much less
the 2^1000000-1 subtotals of all subsets of the million numbers. You're
not too familiar with the mathematics of database capacity, are you?
But we can all tell you're just blathering with no concept of the
meanings of the terms you're slinging around. Good thing you know how
to backup databases and start print jobs.
>and of course i know what SAS is.
>i just don't believe in purchanse SHIT applications like that.
...
Really? How would you go about conducting a canonical factor analysis
using OLAP? How about something simpler like general linear models?
Multilinear regression with standard colinearity and heteroscedasticity
adjustments? ARIMA time series? Even basic curve fitting?
But you have no clue what any of this means.
>but you dumbass lamers haven't grown past excel.
How little you know. To repeat from previous threads, many Excel users
also use databases, but most of use use a broad mix of tools. You're
the one with the monoculture mind.
>vbs or java?
>
>do i side with a company with 300 billion dollar market cap; or do i
>side with a puny company with a 4 billion dollar market cap.
...
Since VBS is comparable to JavaSCRIPT rather than Java, it's unclear
you have any clue you know what you're asking. But since even Microsoft
provides Java development environments, and there are Java runtime
engines available for many platforms that don't run VBS, it depends on
circumstances you don't seem competent to assess.
aaron...@gmail.com
i can do everything you do but i can do it faster; i can scale to
billions of records.
and you sit there and stand up for a program where.. you can't even
have 2 people working on the same project.
i can do that easily in Access, ASP, Reporting Services or SQL Server.
VBS **ISNT** comparable to javaScript you idiot.
VBS is to VB
what
JAVASCRIPT / JSCRIPT is to JAVA.
the only difference is that vb is widely used; and java is a piece of
shit language.
PHP is the most popular language on the web.
I could give a shit about environments that can't run VB.
i mean-- those numb-nuts can't even run the worlds' most popular
business language.
yes-- vb-- the same language you do in excel..
i just think that it's a travesty that companies dont' enforce standard
software development principles to Excel.
i mean-- you guys burn more man hours than is possible to calculate.
you sit there and make the same goddamn spreadsheet week in and week
out.
i claim that your jobs SHOULD be outsourced to a bunch of retarded jr
high students in india.
you guys are stuck on the first step.
grow up and learn a real reporting platform
Excel is for wimps.
Beege
an Access newsgroup?
Why are you trying to sell ice to Eskimos?
Why?
Why?
Why?
Beege
<aaron...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148332296.5...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Beege
Why so acerbic?
aaron...@gmail.com
microsoft is driven by a bunch of drunk retards.
but the idea that there are 10 billion spreadsheet dorks and 100
database gurus-- i mean... something has to be done about it.
you monkeys should get a real skillset and a real job.
why so acerbic?
BECAUSE EXCEL IS CRAP AND IM SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF DEALING WITH
SPREADSHEET DORKS
aaron...@gmail.com
i took classes on lotus 123 back in high school.
but i'm not a cornholer; and i realized what a piece of shit app it is.
i mean-- you can't share.. you can't do anything other than copy and
paste
your solutions don't grow; it's all tedious bullshit in my book
i urge you guys to get a clue; start using 3rd party spreadsheet apps--
so that microsoft is driven to continue improving excel.
and i urge you to expand your horizons and learn some real skills.
i can run circles around you guys; you guys can't even build a decent
report.
Beege
news:1148494868.9...@38g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
jerk ... killfiled here
Beege
aaron...@gmail.com
here's my goddamn solution ok buddy?
create table N
(N INT NOT NULL)
go
insert into n(n)
values (1)
go
insert into n(n)
values (2)
go
insert into n(n)
values (3)
then if you want your precious little permutations
Select N1.N N1, N2.N N2, N3.N N3
>From N N1, N N2, N N3
Where N1.N <> N2.N AND N1.N <> N3.N AND N2.N <> N3.N
order by 1, 2, 3
sorry.. I didn't understand that you assumed that cartesianing is
always out of control complete and utter cartesianing.
you see; you can combine a join and a whereclause with some
cartesianing in order to control the result set.
aaron...@gmail.com
i speak the truth
If I am the only person that has sat you idiots down and said 'grow up
and get a real skillset' then I am fine with making a couple babies
cry.
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
and im sorry your virgin ears
CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH
aaron...@gmail.com
I keep a table called N and a table called C in almost every database i
make.
i add these to the model database in SQL Server; and then when I make a
new db they already exist.
if you're all worried about adding different size sets; etc-- i can
just filter these further with the where clause.
it's not rocket science; it's called 2nd grade math instead of the
pre-schooler math that you spreadsheet dorks chew on.
-Aaron
aaron...@gmail.com
re:
No, data exists independent of storage medium/mechanism. But not
surprising that you're limited worldview can't cope with that.
no Harlan-- you're wrong.
Data-- Nice-- Usable-- Reliable Data-- shouldn't be stuck in data
islands and duplicate copies.
how many copies of the same data do you keep; Harlan?
Hundreds?
What happens when you need to change a calendar to account for a new
national holiday?
you have to sit there and loop through hundreds of spreadsheets and
copy and paste stuff until you turn blue.
THAT IS CALLED A WASTE OF TIME.
Data should be centralized and LEVERAGED so that you're automagically
10% exponentially faster the next time you run the same report-- you've
already got the infrastructure there.
it's like you kids and trying to build the empire state building-- and
you're using LEGOs.
don't carry a blanket around with you every day
don't suck on your thumb
and DONT USE EXCEL FOR REPORTING AGAINST DATABASES. IT ISN'T
FUNCTIONAL ENOUGH TO BE USED FOR A SINGLE SMALL ONE-TIME REPORT.
Harlan Grove
>re:
>No, data exists independent of storage medium/mechanism. But not
>surprising that you're limited worldview can't cope with that.
>
>no Harlan-- you're wrong.
>
>Data-- Nice-- Usable-- Reliable Data-- shouldn't be stuck in data
>islands and duplicate copies.
>how many copies of the same data do you keep; Harlan?
First, acording to you there was no data before the UNIVAC post WW2. It
may be the case that you'd be at a complete loss for how to do anything
(even find your butt with both hands) if you didn't have a database to
help you do so.
Few if any. You may not know how to use spreadsheets competently, but
there are at least a few million people around the world who can.
>What happens when you need to change a calendar to account for a new
>national holiday?
What idiot, aside from you, keeps a calendar in Excel? If you mean with
regard to the NETWORKDAYS or WORKDAY functions, you obviously don't
know how to use workbook templates and store shared read-only files on
file servers. Put commonly used data, such as company holiday lists, in
named ranges in a workbook, save that workbook read-only in a server
share, create workbook templates with defined names referring to named
ranges in the shared workbook as external references. Change all such
templates by changing the server file once.
To repeat, that you don't know how to use Excel competently implies
nothing about whether there are or aren't MANY Excel users who are MUCH
MORE competent.
>you have to sit there and loop through hundreds of spreadsheets and
>copy and paste stuff until you turn blue.
...
Or use a canned macro written years ago to make batch changes iterating
through a table of affected workbook files and a table of range
addresses and replacement formulas. If you're not competent to
administer Excel models . . .
>Data should be centralized and LEVERAGED so that you're automagically
>10% exponentially faster the next time you run the same report-- you've
>already got the infrastructure there.
...
10% exponentially faster?! More random verbiage.
And if only all work were generating reports.
>and DONT USE EXCEL FOR REPORTING AGAINST DATABASES. IT ISN'T
>FUNCTIONAL ENOUGH TO BE USED FOR A SINGLE SMALL ONE-TIME REPORT.
Thanks. I'll keep that in mind if I ever have to create reports again.
Harlan Grove
>cartesianing, cartesianing and cartesianing.
>
>i can do everything you do but i can do it faster; i can scale to
>billions of records.
Except, evidently, sift the permutations from the tuples.
>and you sit there and stand up for a program where.. you can't even
>have 2 people working on the same project.
And in well-designed spreadsheet models, what would all these people be
trying to do at the same time? Realize that unlike you, I know that
there are some things better done in databases than in spreadsheets AND
vice versa.
>VBS **ISNT** comparable to javaScript you idiot.
>
>VBS is to VB
>what
>JAVASCRIPT / JSCRIPT is to JAVA.
You've confirmed my point, even if you don't understand that you've
done so. You just mean you don't like J[ava][Script], so comparable in
your wee mind means I LIKE IT and not comparable means I DON'T LIKE IT.
Suits your limited intellect.
>the only difference is that vb is widely used; and java is a piece of
>shit language.
Really? How widely used is VB on non-Wintel systems?
>PHP is the most popular language on the web.
And it looks so much like VB?
I have nothing against PHP. I just don't use it because I don't work
with web pages.
>I could give a shit about environments that can't run VB.
...
Yes. It must be difficult enough for you to keep up with Windows and
Microsoft databases. Much too hard to learn anything else.
dbah...@hotmail.com
sql server owns the olap market www.olapreport.com and their database
is quite strong these days.
IIS has made great strides; IIS 7 is going to make it even more
critical to use a real OS for web servers
db people are not the one that is stuck on first base.
db people hit home runs day after day.
excel is a girly-man program.
Harlan Grove
>RE:
...
>here's my goddamn solution ok buddy?
>
>create table N
>(N INT NOT NULL)
>go
>insert into n(n)
>values (1)
>go
>insert into n(n)
>values (2)
>go
>insert into n(n)
>values (3)
The forgoing so much easier than creating a list in Excel.
>then if you want your precious little permutations
>
>Select N1.N N1, N2.N N2, N3.N N3
>From N N1, N N2, N N3
>Where N1.N <> N2.N AND N1.N <> N3.N AND N2.N <> N3.N
>order by 1, 2, 3
Finally!
Very good.
Except that the Where clause grows factorially. Becomes a bit of a pain
to handle 8 distinct tokens using
SELECT T1.N AS N1, T2.N AS N2, T3.N AS N3, T4.N AS N4, T5.N AS N5, T6.N
AS N6, T7.N AS N7, T8.N AS N8
FROM T AS T1, T AS T2, T AS T3, T AS T4, T AS T5, T AS T6, T AS T7, T
AS T8
WHERE ((T1.N<>T2.N) And (T1.N<>T3.N) And (T1.N<>T4.N) And (T1.N<>T5.N)
And (T1.N<>T6.N) And (T1.N<>T7.N) And (T1.N<>T8.N)
And (T2.N<>T3.N) And (T2.N<>T4.N) And (T2.N<>T5.N) And (T2.N<>T6.N)
And (T2.N<>T7.N) And (T2.N<>T8.N)
And (T3.N<>T4.N) And (T3.N<>T5.N) And (T3.N<>T6.N) And (T3.N<>T7.N)
And (T3.N<>T8.N)
And (T4.N<>T5.N) And (T4.N<>T6.N) And (T4.N<>T7.N) And (T4.N<>T8.N)
And (T5.N<>T6.N) And (T5.N<>T7.N) And (T5.N<>T8.N)
And (T6.N<>T7.N) And (T6.N<>T8.N)
And (T7.N<>T8.N))
ORDER BY T1.N, T2.N, T3.N, T4.N, T5.N, T6.N, T7.N, T8.N;
Then there's runtime. Your query's comparison operations make this an
O((N+1)!) procedure. Table-driven permutation generation, such as found
in
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.excel/msg/2c1e73ffd974b4d2
will be much faster for 8 or more distinct tokens.
>sorry.. I didn't understand that you assumed that cartesianing is
>always out of control complete and utter cartesianing.
>
>you see; you can combine a join and a whereclause with some
>cartesianing in order to control the result set.
OK, so you're not using the strict, Codd definition. Fine. You don't
use much other terminology in the strict sense, so silly me for
expecting otherwise.
dbah...@hotmail.com
it doesn't actually calculate each possible row and then filter them
out.
it is much much much more intelligent than that.
i use this to prepopulate records all the time.
3 times a week i do something like this.
strict codd definition?
run around quoting codd and pretending to know what the fuck you're
talking about.
i can out-develop you harlan.
hundreds and hundred of times better.
I'm growing-- you're shrinking in quick sand.
you can't leverage a dozen spreadsheets into something valuable.
if i build a baby access system; it is easy to convert it to mySql or
SQL Server or DB2 or Oracle.
EASY EASY EASY.
I'm sorry that you have crappy unix dbas at your office that can't get
anything done.
and i'm sorry that you're more interested in snorting java and C++ and
perl and python--
screw you-- just because you took a couple of programming classes
doesn't make you an expert.
you sit around and burn your tires 24x7; jerking off; making the same
spreadsheet week in and week out.
it's riduclous that you get paid for it.
what you're doing -- you're sinking the titanic. you are sinking the
company that you are floating on.
you are dead weight.
you see; im building a library of data.
you just build a bunch of crappy stand-alone documents.
i grow 10% every day-- because i can leverage my existing data.
you-- you spend more and more time on formula maintenance because the
upkeep on a dozen spreadsheets is too much to handle.
1. i spend a lot less than 7 steps. I've already got the table there.
i dont recreate it from scratch every time-- im not a spreadsheet loser
and i dont copy and paste formulas in a trillion different places every
day. it's just not efficient to do things that way. :)
2. i can break this down into multiple quadrants-- multiple sections if
you will-- if i need to cartesian / generate longer and longer strings.
3. i can write it into a function and it's easy to digest for 100
people.. i dont have to email copies of my spreadsheets around. I dont
have to run out and buy sharepoint so i can keep my databases straight.
4. i dont have
Don Guillett
quit feeding the troll. He has been here before for food.
--
Don Guillett
SalesAid Software
dguil...@austin.rr.com
"Harlan Grove" <hrl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1148503225.5...@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Harlan Grove
>what you're missing is that SQL Server is better than this.
>it doesn't actually calculate each possible row and then filter them
>out.
It doesn't generate each tuple, but it does have to perform
comparisons.
Try generating some tables with 12 to 20 distinct values, time how long
it takes the queries to run, then plot those run times.
>i can out-develop you harlan.
...
In databases and web pages, probably. Financial simulation models, I
doubt it.
>screw you-- just because you took a couple of programming classes
>doesn't make you an expert.
...
As opposed to you CLAIMING you're an expert? Any proof?
A simple Google Groups search shows that your postings in database ngs
are usually as vacuous as your postings in this ng.
Harlan Grove
>who cares about non-wintel systems?
>
>sql server owns the olap market www.olapreport.com and their database
>is quite strong these days.
>
>IIS has made great strides; IIS 7 is going to make it even more
>critical to use a real OS for web servers
Netcraft still shows more than 2.5 times as many web sites running
Apache as running IIS. Facts (as opposed to 'data') are such awkward
things.
dbah...@hotmail.com
all there is is data and i use the right tool; you use a crutch.
and because of this you have the capabilities of a 3rd grader.
dbah...@hotmail.com
that it's a better choice.
i dont sit around and sleep with whoever is the most popular.
if a census report came out that said 'there are more men than women'
does this mean that you would sleep with a man?
just because they're more popular?
IIS fucking rocks buddy; it's penetration in fortune 500 companies is
hard to gloss over like you do.
just because some dork hobbyists use a free webserver-- does that mean
it's the right choice for a company?
what about windows authentication FUCKTARD
i build web apps that authenticate the user; and the connection gets
passed to the database using double-hop authentication.
can apache do anything?
Grow some balls and stop being such a trendy linux fag harlan
you are the one that is changing the focus of this discussion.
the focus of this discussion is that you; and all your excel 'friends'
are completely worthless
and i want to know how in the hell you justify punching the clock-- how
do you sleep at night when you realize that you're robbing companies.
why is it that you sit around and build the same spreadsheet by hand
every friggin week?
grow some balls; grow up-- learn to automate shit
and start using the right tool.
you're a drunk carpenter; trying to drive screws with a hammer, Harlan.
Excel is a joke; and all you excel dorks are as worthless as i can
possible imagine.
the travesty is that you sit there and collect a paycheck.
from copying and pasting the same damn functions 100 times.
it's got to be the most repetitive job it's possible to imagine
cut and copy, paste formulas
when you change ANYTHING you have to change shit in a million places
grow some balls harlan wake up; being an excel dork doesn't give you a
single qualification.
you guys either need to:
a) RAISE THE BAR - start learning real excel automation; start building
solutions.
b) GET OUTSOURCED TO INDIA - building the same damn spreadsheet weeek
in and week out-- it's you idiots that should be paid $3/hour to work
in india
Puppet_Sock
[snip weapons grade balonium]
> excel is a girly-man program.
Heh heh. That's why I can consistantly bill $85/hr doing
development in it. Heh heh.
Socks
dbah...@hotmail.com
big spender, big spender
just because you con people into using it doesnt mean it's worth.
you and the other 100m spreadsheet dorks in the world-- altogether the
worth of every spreadsheet created by every spreadsheet dork.. is equal
to ZERO.
there has never been a single spreadsheet developed that is worth a
penny.
dbah...@hotmail.com
Harlan Grove
>yeah just because a couple free providers use apache; it doesn't mean
>that it's a better choice.
A couple? Make that about 3/4 of all web sites. No doubt your next
claim will be that in addition to being more capable than all
spreadsheet users you also know more about web server admin than all
non-IIS web server admins. There are clinical terms for your condition,
but dementia sums it up well enough.
>i dont sit around and sleep with whoever is the most popular.
>
>if a census report came out that said 'there are more men than women'
>
>does this mean that you would sleep with a man?
>
>just because they're more popular?
No, but if a survey came out saying most men were faster than most
women, who knows what you'd do. Put it in an OLAP cube and the results
would be too horrible to contemplate.
>IIS fucking rocks buddy; it's penetration in fortune 500 companies is
>hard to gloss over like you do.
We've played this game before. Why not check Netcraft?
Exxon Mobil IIS and Netscape
Citicorp Unknown and Netscape
Toyota Apache and IIS
Pfizer Netscape, Unknown and IIS
Oracle Oracle Application Server
Microsoft IIS (aside from the Linux servers for
search.microsoft.com)
IBM IBM HTTP Server
AIG Apache and Netscape
Goldman Sachs Apache and Netscape
Amazon.com Unknown (but it runs under Linux, so it ain't
IIS)
eBay IIS
Halliburton Apache
Wal-Mart IIS and Apache
GM Sun ONE Web Server and Netscape
Chevron IIS
Ford IIS (running under Linux?!)
Conoco Phillips IIS
GE Sun ONE Web Server
Hewlett Packard Apache
Bank of America Sun ONE Web Server
Berkshire Hathaway IIS and Apache
Home Depot Netscape
Valero IIS and Apache
McKesson Apache
>just because some dork hobbyists use a free webserver-- does that mean
>it's the right choice for a company?
Apparently for a lot of large companies that seem to have successfully
avoided the calamity of hiring you, yes, it does seem it's the right
choice for a lot of companies.
>what about windows authentication FUCKTARD
Hunh? You mean Passport? Do you have any idea how many people refuse to
get Passport accounts?
>can apache do anything?
Apparently enough so that a rather large share of large corporations
use it. But what do they know?
>you are the one that is changing the focus of this discussion.
...
Look over the thread. See who went off-topic first. Here's a link.
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.excel/msg/ade6c0144284f6c6
What relevance PHP and .Net have to *your* original, er, point is a
mystery.
aaron...@gmail.com
i do know excel fucktard
i choose not to use it because it gave me carpal tunnel
copy and paste is no fun for me anymore
maintaining duplicate formulas-- that's just not fun for me anymore.
everything you do is a 'report' buddy
simple static little bullshit and you need to grow up and automate
aaron...@gmail.com
trying to do at the same time? Realize that unlike you, I know that
there are some things better done in databases than in spreadsheets AND
vice versa.
HOW IN THE FUCK DOES THIS MAKE IT WELL-DESIGNED????
HOW IN THE FUCK DOES THIS MAKE IT WELL-DESIGNED????
HOW IN THE FUCK DOES THIS MAKE IT WELL-DESIGNED????
HOW IN THE FUCK DOES THIS MAKE IT WELL-DESIGNED????
It doesn't fucking working for multiple users
aaron...@gmail.com
anything anymore??
cschiller1<at>earthlink.net
Except Excel, of course.
-)
aaron...@gmail.com
it makes me sick to think that you guys get paid for copying and
pasting; your company should hire a bunch of monkeys-- literally
hammering away with a big button that says copy and a big button that
says paste.
they could build the same shit you do but they woudln't be such a PITA
and seriously
you dumbshits have never written a webpage in your lives; so why in the
fuck do you guys give a shit about apache vs iis?
furthermore; does this show what is being used for INTRANET sites?
INTRANET sites-- where a user in an office can talk to a web
applicaiton without having to sign-in every 30 seconds-- is almost
exclusively the domain-- pun intended-- of IIS.
IIS allows you to authenticate and double-hop authentication i mean
apache doesnt even come close to this same functionality
but the point of the matter is that if you dipshits knew how to spell
HTML you would be writing webpages and not jerking off to microsoft
excel
so who gives a flying shit what you guys say?
i respect apache
apache and php-- even mysql is a great product.
but in real - world -- corporate implementations?
they suck ballz compared to iis.
i just think that it's hilarious that you guys sit there and talk shit
about MS.
when you smoke MS pole every day by using this diseased program called
Excel.
the worst program; the worst time-waster-- ever written.
grow some balls and start doing databases kids; you'll be amazed that
shit gets easier for you and you're not stuck with a billion documents
filled with spaghetti code references.
excel is just impossible to manage.
one of these days i'll get my application working again-- called 'grade
your beancounter'
and i'll give all you fucktards a big fat F for productivity.
-Aaron
aaron...@gmail.com
i just find it laughable that you sit there and in response to my 'why
do people use excel' question; you start ranting and raving about
apache.
why is excel used?
who started this disease?
when is there going to be a terminator movie about someone travelling
back in time and blowing up the early excel
the world would be a much better place
robots aren't the problem
excel-- copying and pasting the same formula in 2000 different places;
this is by defintiion-- unmanageable.
how do you guys cope with cutting and pasting functions around like
this??
are there tools for automating this?
i know excel like the back of my hand i've just never 'gotten it'
how do you guys stay productive in excel?
is ms going to have a real certification track for excel in the future?
i mean a tiered, industry-specific certification track
Harlan Grove
>>And in well-designed spreadsheet models, what would all these people be
Not only do you seem to know little about spreadsheets (*PROVE*
otherwise), you also seem to be ignorant of standard USENET quoting
conventions (I've backfilled). Need a pointer to a USENET faq?
>It doesn't fucking working for multiple users
Neither do calculators. Once you realize most *well-designed*
spreadsheet models are little more than glorified programmable (and
programmed) calculators, understanding may dawn. I won't hold my
breath, though.
Are spreadsheets MISused as databases? Yup. Are they MISused as
calendars? Yup again. Are they MISused by most users most of the time?
Probably, because they tend to be the *ONLY* automatable software with
relatively flexible *and* simple layout capabilities given to most
business computer users. That doesn't mean they can't be used
appropriately and well, but few if any companies spend money training
employees how to use Office or other 'productivity' software.
Harlan Grove
>i do know excel fucktard
Prove it.
>i do know excel fucktard
PROVE IT!
>i choose not to use it because it gave me carpal tunnel
>copy and paste is no fun for me anymore
Oh, too bad. Convenient, though. Like saying in a bar, "Yeah, I used to
be able to run a mile in under 4 minutes before my accident." Sounds
good. Doesn't mean much.
>everything you do is a 'report' buddy
...
No. More accurate would be the only thing you can understand is
reporting. Anything more complicated is beyond your comprehension.
Harlan Grove
>i just find it laughable that you sit there and in response to my 'why
>do people use excel' question; you start ranting and raving about
>apache.
Read the archives. You're the one who starts these tangents, usually
making unfortunate statements that can easily be proved false. Some of
the rest of use point out those errors in order to give indications of
your BS to sense ratio. And you have a very, very high BS ratio.
>why is excel used?
Because that all MOST business users have. You're also incapable of
understanding that while many business users have Access RUNTIME, they
don't have the full Access product. And, no, corporate Office licenses
aren't mostly for Professional. In the company where I work, fewer than
5% of users overall have Access. The percentage is higher in some
departments than others. In several departments, NO ONE has Access.
>who started this disease?
...
Um, guess you'd have to blame Bricklin and Frankston, perhaps Kapor and
Sachs too. Don't give Microsft credit/blame for starting this.
Microsoft doesn't innovate (at least not outside programming
languages/environments), but they're damn good at copying.
>when is there going to be a terminator movie about someone travelling
>back in time and blowing up the early excel
...
If you saw T3, you know the future is inevitable. Get used to it.
>is ms going to have a real certification track for excel in the future?
Excel is a calculator. Where's the certification track for the HP 12-C?
Top end spreadsheet users do things like setting up hedging strategies
for large corporations. They use Excel as one tool among many. Their
certification is their PhDs or MBAs. They need Excel certification as
much as lawyers need Word and WestLaw certification, or as much as
carpenters need saw and hammer certification.
> i mean a tiered, industry-specific certification track
Who needs it?
Besides, *IF* there were any money in it, Microsoft would have done it
LONG AGO. Unlike you, Microsoft focuses on realistic potential revenue.
Harlan Grove
>there is no such thing as 'financial simulation models'
Eloquent! Proof, if more were needed, of the depth of your experience &
understanding.
Harlan Grove
>why do you guys use excel?
...
This seems apt.
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2006/05/26/myth_legends_database/
aaron...@gmail.com
Just because I dont like excel; does that mean i dont know it?
that's the most conceited thing i've ever heard.
aaron...@gmail.com
there is no way to determine whether someone is worth six figures for
making spreadsheets.
you dorks should be upheld to the same standards as real developers-- i
mean-- you guys waste more money than the real developers do
aaron...@gmail.com
2 can play at that game
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2006/05/03/buggy_spreadsheet/
How many scenarios can you imagine where a momentary loss of
concentration could cost over $1bn? Perhaps a nuclear power station
meltdown...or if a currency trader hit a few wrong keys? Well, another
possibility is a simple spreadsheet error.
In October 2003, soon after announcing third quarter earnings, Fannie
Mae had to restate its unrealised gains, increasing them by $1.2bn.
This highly unwelcome outcome was said to stem from "honest mistakes
made in a spreadsheet used in the implementation of a new accounting
standard".
The really, really bad news is that millions of similar errors are
almost certainly being made every year, many of them in
business-critical financial spreadsheets. Although they are the
quintessential end-user tool, spreadsheets of any complexity are just
as hard to write and maintain as any other kind of software - if they
are to yield consistently accurate results, anyway.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
HOW DO YOU LIKE ME NOW BITCH?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
aaron...@gmail.com
-An answer to spreadsheet hell
re: white paper
http://www.it-analysis.com/xurl.php?cid=8341&url=http://www.bloor-research.com/pdf/733_full.pdf
To begin with, there is full security (including cell level locking)
and auditability. There is also version control, which applies not just
to data but also to formulae and macros. There is also a built-in
review and approval process (actually, this is one other area where
users may see a change) which is itself auditable and you can append
comments, notes and so forth to spreadsheets, all of which are
similarly captured.
So far, so good. But it gets better. In June this year, Mobius will be
introducing its next release of this product. This will provide two
major enhancements. First, it will integrate with ABS itself (it
already integrates with ViewDirect, which is the company's content
management solution). What this will mean is that you will be able to
balance and reconcile data between spreadsheets and source applications
- in other words, you will actually be able to check that the data is
still valid and hasn't been overwritten.
Secondly, and this is the real kicker: in the June release, Mobius will
be introducing automated spreadsheet consolidation. That is, you will
be able to roll up figures from lower-level spreadsheets into higher
ones. Now, consider the implications of that for a moment.
There are lots of times companies want to roll-up figures in
spreadsheets. But what is the most common? Probably planning, budgeting
and consolidation. Every CPM (corporate performance management) vendor
will tell you horror stores about companies using Excel for this
purpose, who take weeks to perform consolidations, for example. Well,
with the June release of ABS Spreadsheet for Compliance it becomes a
much more plausible option to stay with Excel. I'm not saying that it
might not still be a good idea to move to Cartesis, Cognos or whoever,
but Mobius' solution certainly poses the question and I expect a
significant number of companies will look on it favourably.
All i've got to say.. is that instead of importing shit from 100
different documents-- when i need to compare Harrys' numbers to Larrys'
numbers; i write a single simple fucking query.
i dont even have to write any of it; it's all drag and drop.
it's easy enough for even you dipshits to do.
but no; you guys are stuck; drunk and helpless-- in a single vision
where spreadsheets in jackboots are marching through the streets of
berlin and moscow and newyork.
you guys are the new fucking nazis.
make everything into a spreadsheet; dont listen to people that are
different
you SQUASH innovation diptard
Harlan Grove
>Just because I dont like excel; does that mean i dont know it?
Then try responding in other threads with *EXCEL* solutions to OP's
problems. Show us you know something about Excel. After all, there's no
.advocacy in this ng's name.
aaron...@gmail.com
Millions of databases are created in Excel spreadsheets each year, but
only a tiny percentage "graduate" to the next level: Access.
Lots of Data is Stored in Excel
Even though Excel is not a database, in many organizations, people
store more data in spreadsheets than any other platform. This drives IT
professionals crazy, but works. Decision makers need to analyze data
and they know Excel. This is one of the greatest benefits of desktop
computing.
Although Excel is not a relational database, it solves many simple
database problems completely. That's because many database problems
can be solved with simple database solutions. Only a tiny percentage of
Excel spreadsheets ever reach the limits of Excel, but when they do,
many should migrate to Access.
Microsoft Access Fills a Large and Important Segment
The success of Access as the most popular database in the world is a
testament to its capabilities and the pervasive need for database
solutions by productivity workers. Access is the first weapon of choice
when it comes to relational databases because of its ability to quickly
create useful database solutions.
It may not have all the features scalability, performance, reliability,
and security of more sophisticated solutions, but for many situations,
those features are irrelevant or secondary to what Access offers.
Access offers an excellent solution for database challenges facing
individuals, small teams, and workgroups across a network.
The number of database challenges within an organization that can be
solved by Access is much larger than solutions solved by more complex
and expensive solutions. And over time, with the drop in hardware
prices and increases in performance, more and more database situations
are solved by Access.
Quantity of Database Solutions
As illustrated in the Database Pyramid, there are a lot more small
databases than large ones. Here's an estimate of the relative number
of database solutions by platform in a large organization:
Platform
Quantity
Excel
50,000
Access Individual
5,000
Access Simple Multi-user
1,000
Access Department
500
VB/Jet
100
VB/VS.NET/Java and SQL Server
50
Oracle, IBM db2
25
SAP, Tandem, etc.
10
Integrates with Microsoft Office
Access is part of Office and integrates with the most popular interface
users use: Office. Enabling users to view data and exporting it into
Excel or Word (or users simply pasting it themselves) is extremely
powerful to knowledge workers.
Great for Data Entry - ****Windows Still Beats Web****
Somehow web users are trained to accept behavior that would cause howls
in Windows applications. For instance, changing the quantity and
pressing [Update] to refresh total sales. Access easily (cheaply)
supports this, copying and pasting records, displaying multiple
one-to-many relationships, and other basic features (e.g. spell
checking) that provide a much friendlier and richer data entry
experience than Web solutions.
Most Database Problems are Small
Most database problems manage relatively small amounts of data and
usually well under 100 MB. This is well within Access' strength and
using a product like SQL Server would be overkill for such small
amounts of data (SQL Server does offer features that might be important
beyond database size).
<-- THIS ARGUMENT IS BS SINCE I USE ACCESS DATA PROJECTS; ACCESS
APPLICATIONS THAT SCALE TO HUNDREDS OF USERS WITHOUT A PROBLEM.
SQL Server Eliminates the Scalability Issue
Microsoft has designed Access to be scalable. Access applications can
eliminate Jet and use SQL Server as its data repository. Access
databases (MDBs) can link to SQL Server data, and ADPs work directly
against SQL Server. SQL Server eliminates the scalability issue for
data size and number of users.
When people focus on the limitations of Access scalability, it's
important to note that the issue is really about the Jet Database
Engine, and not Access as the front-end to SQL Server. Of course it
takes extra work to migrate to SQL Server or convert an MDB to ADP, but
a significant portion of the development investment is preserved.
------------------------------------------------
More than 95+% of Access databases created by end users will never
require IT department intervention.
------------------------------------------------
So harlan-- your highness-- what in the hell are you talking baout how
'db development is the domain of it'
Evolution of Access Developers
Most Access developers evolved from non-programming professions. They
fell into Access, discovered the amazing productivity gains, learned
VBA, and become more and more sophisticated. Over time, they move from
being more business oriented to programming becoming VB or .NET
developers using SQL Server. These people now consider Access
applications trivial.
But the change is with the person and not Access. Access still does
what it does well but that person is ready to move on. They now look
down on people like their former selves challenged by database
fundamentals they now take for granted. They forget they've become
the people in the IT shop that their former selves tried to avoid, and
that Access was their gateway to their successful career. Their
evolution away from Access is okay, even expected, as others follow in
their footsteps discovering the amazing solutions they can create with
Access.
Harlan Grove
Where have I ever said spreadsheets were error-free?
Besides, there's another Reg article about the Malasian telephone
company sending some customer a bill for more than the country's GDP.
Wanna bet whether that bill was generated by a database? Errors are
possible in EVERY software system.
The article I cited was about the pathologies and lack of mental
balance of database developers. Still applicable.
aaron...@gmail.com
i agree.
Excel isn't capable of version control; altogether; it is impossible to
have ANY compliance with Sarbanes-Oxley if you use Excel for a single
mission critical application.
you can't TELL who made the last changes to a workbook.
you can't TELL who made the last changes to a cell.
you can't even lock a fucking cell Harlan.
Excel is a goddamn disease and you are the most close-minded person
i've ever met.
Excel spreadsheets-- i mean.. seriously here
you were passe in 1994.
and for the record??
that malaysian database report (sorry i mean bill)
it's ENTIRELY possible it came from a database.
but the fact of the matter is that it is POSSIBLE to put constraints on
a database.
it is IMPOSSIBLE to put ANY constraints on Excel.
i mean-- copy and paste gets around any of the validation that is
possible in excel right?? lol
lose the training wheels kids; you'll be happy when you can move a
billon records with subsecond response times.
Harlan Grove
>you're full of shit you guys all need certifications.
Mine's an MA in math. Excel-specific certification as unnecessary for
my job as calculator certification. And since you're so set on the
necessity of certification, where'd you be if the world's most
successful college dropout hadn't been able to start Microsoft because
he lacked any formal certification?
>there is no way to determine whether someone is worth six figures for
>making spreadsheets.
...
Yes there is, but you won't be able to figure it out.
>you dorks should be upheld to the same standards as real developers-- i
>mean-- you guys waste more money than the real developers do
Real developers like who? Most of the really important developers
weren't formally schooled in programming (Bill Gates, Dennis Ritchie,
Edsger Dijkstra, Donald Knuth - Ken Thompson, Bill Joy and James
Gosling are probably the major exceptions), and none were certified in
anything other than that implicit in their academic qualifications.
Certification is for mediocre developers . . . like you.
aaron...@gmail.com
Your degree is worthless because you use the wrong tool.
You make things more complex than they need to be.
Any you could be more powerful if you took databases more seriously.
Databases aren't the domain of IT.
www.microsoft.com/sql sql server express edition is a free download and
it all integrates beautifully with excel.
if you upgrade to standard edition you can use the worlds best molap
engine anywhere at any price.
Excel can't even do simple math correctly and reliably.
I'm sorry that you think that you're such a bad-a$$ when it comes to
math.
The 4 semesters of college calculus i took didn't even come close to
being as difficult as the math i took in high school
either I should have gone to a harder college or something.
I scored over 700 on the Math SAT back in the day.
And I honestly don't use 1/10th of what I learned.
but the 10% i apply is better than all this other bullshit math you
think is so critical.
I rely on built in functions; i stand on the shoulders of giants by
constantly consuming other poeples' UDFs.
Excel can't scale like that.
Harlan Grove
...
>Databases aren't the domain of IT.
Perhaps not, but software installation is. If the IT department won't
install something, it could be a firing offense to install it oneself.
If the typical user lacks database development software, what does s/he
do? Whine about it in newsgroups or use what's available?
>Excel can't even do simple math correctly and reliably.
?
Do you mean most Excel users make formula errors?
The spreadsheet bugs you've cited elsewhere have nothing to do with
Excel making errors evaluating correct formulas. There are problems
with several functions, but they're shared by a great many other
software packages, likely including Access and SQL Server. For evample,
with the table T containing one field named V and records as so
V
100000000
100000001
the query
SELECT Var(V)
FROM T;
returns 0 as the result. It should be 0.5. Guess Access is a buggy as
Excel.
>And I honestly don't use 1/10th of what I learned.
...
I think the figure is much, much less.
aaron...@gmail.com
sure that is a bad thing.
i just claim with source control tools-- with notepad for christ
sakes-- it is quite easy; it is quite possible to make sure that a
database has accurate information.
on the other hand garbage in = garbage out.
the thing with excel.. is if you feed it garbage in you dont even get
ANYTHING out.
excel is a waste of breath; a waste of hard drive space.
the 2nd biggest security threat ever.
and 100 times more of a time-waster than either internet explorer or
solitaire.
you can accomplish things with databases
with spreadsheets all you can do is jerk off and make worthless
documents.
i tell you this-- it is entirely possible to judge the value of a
company based on their computer systems.
if i ever work for wall street again; i'd like to go around to
companies and say 'let me see your schema'
so that i can get a sense of whether a company has direction
or whether it's just a bunch of flaky spreadsheet dorks.
i mean what the hell harlan
you sit there and make the same damn spreadsheet week in and week out.
may your children reek of underberries
and you trip and fall and smash your head on the accident when you wake
up
may your dogs hide every left sock
so you have to wear a mismatch
because for all i know you are THIEVES and stealing from your
companies.
you don't do anything valuable; you don't add a penny in value to your
company.
you sit there and make the same fucking spreadsheet 10 times a year.
i am outraged that you think that you guys matter.
what i mean to ask is-- why are you idiots too fucking stupid to grow
up and learn a real program?
learn something that creates value; i dont care if it's photoshop-- you
can draw your fucking graphs for all i care.
i get all the 'analytics' i need with a freeware stack called 'Analysis
Services' and 'Office Web Components'
i dont need people to sit around and crunch numbers.
i feed more numbers to more people that you guys could possibly fathom.
I have the solution for your addiction to spreadsheets.
i encourage all you guys to drop out-- get rid of excel--
learn databases; build olap
and presto chango; you've got the best reporting solution that money
could buy.
it's free-- it's better pivot Tables than your typical XLS pivotTables.
they're faster, more scalable; more powerful; more portable
there isnt' a reason in the world to use XLS files.
OWC. Office Web Components-- spreadsheet control and pivotTable
control; it's time to start thinking outside the box kids
time to lose the training wheels
I haven't ever worked in a department where the tech doesn't walk up
and give me admin priveleges.
i dont need to ask for it. they just see me and can telepathically
assume that i know what the hell im doing and they bend over and give
me admin priveleges.
maybe if you weren't considered 'just a spreadsheet wimp' you wouldn't
get denied local admin
it's called freedom of though
get out of excel kids
Harlan Grove
>so what it's forcing a round down when it takes the average?? im not
>sure that is a bad thing.
No, it's floating point truncation error caused by using a simplistic
one-pass algorithm. And for the record, Microsoft did fix this in Excel
2003. And FWLIW, Lotus 123 never shared this problem; 123 always used a
better algorithm.
>i just claim with source control tools-- with notepad for christ
>sakes-- it is quite easy; it is quite possible to make sure that a
>database has accurate information.
...
It's possible to ensure spreadsheets have accurate information, though
not using Notepad. BTW, how do you open terabyte-size database files in
Notepad?
>the thing with excel.. is if you feed it garbage in you dont even get
>ANYTHING out.
...
Which, if it were true, would be a good thing. No results are better
than false ones.
>excel is a waste of breath; a waste of hard drive space.
Evidently, Excel is sufficient reason for you to keep posting.
>the 2nd biggest security threat ever.
...
Proof? Was it Excel or Word this week that Microsoft had to tell the
world & dog to run in safe mode?
Behind Outlook?
>i tell you this-- it is entirely possible to judge the value of a
>company based on their computer systems.
...
Enron and their auditor had some well-respected systems. Lots of value
there. Or did I transpose the s and t?
>i am outraged that you think that you guys matter.
...
That's probably true. It must be frustrating not understanding what
anyone who doesn't develop database apps does.
>I haven't ever worked in a department where the tech doesn't walk up
>and give me admin priveleges.
>
>i dont need to ask for it. they just see me and can telepathically
>assume that i know what the hell im doing and they bend over and give
>me admin priveleges.
...
Since you couldn't really do the sort of work you claim to do without
admin priviledges, it'd be rather pointless to hire you and not give
you them. But 99% of the non-IT and non-developer/consultant workforce
doesn't get any admin priviledges.
aaron...@gmail.com
is a lie
aaron...@gmail.com
because they're security risks.
because they're not an open format.
because if excel screws up and i can't get information out of a
spreadsheet; i should be able to pull it apart and force a read on it.
sure it might get better in 2007.
it's still going to go the wrong direction.
if excel starts to get some REAL reporting capabilites then maybe i'll
be happy.
binding ranges to databases is pretty easy in vsto; it needs to be that
easy in native excel
excel out of the box
none of this bullshit sell us extra tools
but no; microsoft isn't happy to just get us to each spend $689 per
person for a copy of office ultimate.
i mean
in my company; they all can use outlook express and ACCESS RUNTIME.
webmail; outlook express and access runtime.
i dont need to spend $1000/seat in server licenses; i dont have to run
out and buy sharepoint... sharepoint is just bs that all it does is
make it easier to email around spreadsheets and word docs.
i write a task list?
sql.
i write a bug list?
sql.
i write a todo list on the way into work?
every day?
it takes me what 2 seconds to write up a new table called DBATASKS in
each db i touch
writing tables is easy; shit i write hundreds of them a week.
i built this thing called chapters.
with it -- normal beancounters; all they have to do is write query
after query after query; no code-- nothing.
and the numbers, the power would blow your mind.
the reports?
shit easy automation; easy etl; easy ddl--
i write sprocs and views by the hundreds at a time.
i mean.. instead of having a dozen beancounters making spreadsheets; i
write a little script that goes through and does all that for me.
it takes your little shit-- that you guys keep in writing...
same damn spreadsheet week in and week out
and i automate it so it's easier.
i can right-click SORT and right-click FILTER for text
excel doesn't have that power.
click click.. 2 different sorts.
in excel it is about 10 clicks.
my pivotTables are more powerful than your pivotTables.
that's the funny thing... that's the punchline here.
my office web components pivot tables kick the shit out of your pivot
tables.
faster, portable, customizable, conditional formatting-- on the
clientside AND the serverside.
i mean..
you play with little dolls and you dress up like a woman
get a real tool harlan
rheyjune
responses to Aaron's posts, I could not stop laughing. You obviously have
Aaron outmanned and outgunned. My question to Aaron is, if he hates XL, and
all XL "dorks" (I beleive was the term used).. Then why is he even here? He
sure spends alot of his time hanging out "chatting" with the HATED XL users.
Anyway,
Harlan take care and keep up the good work.
aaron...@gmail.com
before crack version 2007 comes out
smoking crack might be fun today; but what about tomorrow morning when
you've got a dozen spreadsheets lying around and you can't LEVERAGE
these into anything useful?
crack is whack and so is excel
aaron...@gmail.com
the sum of the variance = 0.
it looks like it rounds down.. not that big of a deal based on the
precision of the numbers.
Enron and their auditor had some well-respected systems. Lots of value
there. Or did I transpose the s and t?
ENRON HAD A BUNCH OF SPREADSHEETS
and it was impossible to audit shit; it was impossible for auditors to
wade through 10,000 spreadsheets so it was easy for those assholes to
hide some shady transactions.
because of ENRON we got Sarbanes-Oxley; and you dipshits are violating
every aspect of SOX by using a tool that is impossible to
a) track changes - who changed which function, who changed which value;
who changed which worksheet. these tasks are easily done with a
database. an AUDIT TRAIL. VERSION CONTROL.
b) prove that a spreadsheet is accurate-- you have duplicate copies of
functions in a billion different places; it is imossible to have
accuracy; veritifable results in XLS
c) leverage 1,000 spreadsheet developers-- into something that is
scalable and accurate and can work for mulitple users
i just find it humorous that you guys sit there and defend the idea of
working in a slow ass product that is impossible to verify.
having a billion copies of the same function is not a good way to write
reports.
all you guys do is write reports
good luck kids
find a real tool
Harlan Grove
>better algorithm harlan; i mean-- i still dont understand the problem,
>the sum of the variance = 0.
Yes, it's clear you don't understand. First, it's just variance, not
sum of variance.
Variance is a simple calculation, at least theoretically. The formal
definition is the average of the squares of the differences of each of
the sample values and the sample mean. In formula terms,
AVERAGE((x-AVERAGE(x))^2)*2
Algebraically, this is equivalent to the average of the squares of the
values minus the square of the average of the values,
(AVERAGE(x^2)-AVERAGE(x)^2)*2
Unfortunately, this latter formula has poor numerical properties
because of the difference in magnitudes of x^2 and x. That leads to
truncation error.
Access's Var function sees two values, 100000000 and 100000001. When
both are squared, there's not enough precision to store them
accurately. They both become 10000000000000000, so the average of the
squares is also 10000000000000000. Their average is 100000000.5, but
when that's squared, it also exceeds available precision, so it also
becomes 10000000000000000. Subtract one from the other and you get 0.
Now consider the formal definition. The average is 100000000.5, so
subtracting this from each value leaves -0.5 and +0.5. Squared, these
become 0.25 and 0.25. Averaged then times 2 (actually times N/(N-1)
where N is the sample's cardinality) this gives 0.5, the correct
answer.
Access uses a simplistic single pass algorithm. Its result has nothing
to do with *intentional* rounding and everything to do with
*unintentional* truncation error. It's a CLASSIC error that Access (and
older versions of Excel) share with far too many other software
packages that try to calculate variances but whose developers were
unfamiliar with the nuances of numerical programming.
>it looks like it rounds down.. not that big of a deal based on the
>precision of the numbers.
It's a huge problem. Variance is an absolute measure. It's
mathematically independent of the magnitude of the sample values. The
variance of a random variable X is always exactly the same as the
variance of the random variable X-k, where k is a constant. If k were
99999999, then X-k would be 1 and 2. The variance of 1 and 2 is 0.5. So
should be the variance of 100000000 and 100000001. If you don't
understand why, just more proof you have no clue what's important in
statistics (and sheds doubt on your ability to recognize, much less
find workarounds for, faulty numeric calculations).
>ENRON HAD A BUNCH OF SPREADSHEETS
>and it was impossible to audit shit; it was impossible for auditors to
>wade through 10,000 spreadsheets so it was easy for those assholes to
>hide some shady transactions.
...
Read up on the Andersen case. It wasn't that difficult to figure out
what Enron was doing. That's a large part of the reason there's no more
Andersen.
>i just find it humorous that you guys sit there and defend the idea of
>working in a slow ass product that is impossible to verify.
>having a billion copies of the same function is not a good way to write
>reports.
Used properly, it's used pretty much like a calculator. Who documents
how they use their calculator?
As for slow, if used properly IN THE APPROPRIATE PROBLEM DOMAIN it's
much, much faster to use spreadsheets than set up the tables needed to
use databases.
Report generation usually isn't the proper problem domain for
spreadsheets.
Finally, it's possible to verify spreadsheets. It's just not simple to
do so. Most Excel users (including you) have no clue how to do it, but
that doesn't mean it can't be done.
>all you guys do is write reports
No, all you do it write reports, and all your little brain can
understand is writing reports. And likely after they've spent a few
minutes with you, reports would be the only thing your customers would
ever show you.
And from the Bloor Research white paper you cited (page 11), "If the
developer does not fully understand the business, there is a high risk
of errors in the logic and design of the spreadsheet." Very true.
Which generalizes beyond spreadsheets to most decision support
applications. Which is why outside consultants like you never see the
important models.
aaron...@gmail.com
internally; sql server can support huge numbers; so i dont accept your
claim.
much larger numbers than Excel can hold lol
it's not possible to verify spreadsheets. it is impossible to apply
software-development tools to excel-- and since 90% of the developers
at your company are 'spreadsheet developers' it is not practical to
double-check each and every formula, value and formatting.
i have worked on countless spreadsheet aggregation projects-- etl
technically-- and im sick and tired of working with a tool that doesn't
have
a) accurate, provable functions and formulas
b) accurate and strict data entry controls
c) portable method for transferring large amounts of data
excel is bloatware, a disease and an addiction.
outside consultants shit buddy i dont think that you have any idea how
much data i have permissions to. how much source; how many
applications.
i find it laughable that you talk to a database person like a junior--
WE MOVE MORE NUMBERS IN AN HOUR THAN YOU DO IN A WEEK
I just find it funny harlan.
there shoudln't be a market for excel inside or outside of any company.
it shouldn't be used for balancing a checkbook.
it shouldn't be used for forecasting / budgeting.
it's just not powerful enough to do the simple tasks well enough.
data entry, validation; portability-- CONNECTIONS to other data.
it's just the wrong tool for 99.999% of the situations where it is
used...
-Aaron
Harlan Grove
>internally; sql server can support huge numbers; so i dont accept your
>claim.
>
>much larger numbers than Excel can hold lol
As usual, you're wrong because you're ignorant. In this case, you're
ignorant of the specifications of the data types SQL Server provides.
Let me hlep you.
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-US/library/ms187752.aspx
Follow the links for all the numeric data types. SQL Server's Real
corresponds to VBA's Single, and SQL Server's Float corresponds to
VBA's Double and Excel's *only* numeric data type. The latter group are
all IEEE double precision floating point reals.
So, what are you talking about?
And of course you don't accept my claim because it'd undercut your
arguments as well as provide yet more proof you're clueless when it
comes to calculations more complicated than checkbook register math.
>it's not possible to verify spreadsheets. it is impossible to apply
>software-development tools to excel-- and since 90% of the developers
>at your company are 'spreadsheet developers' it is not practical to
>double-check each and every formula, value and formatting.
You know how many developers there are at my company? Name it. Name
some of them. Or are these more empty claims and/or blather?
>i have worked on countless spreadsheet aggregation projects-- etl
>technically-- and im sick and tired of working with a tool that doesn't
>have
>
>a) accurate, provable functions and formulas
No function is 'provable' without source code *and* empirical testing.
Since Microsoft provides no publicly available source code for the
functions in any of its produces, Excel's functions are as unprovable
as SQL Server's.
As for formulas, it takes work, but it involves writing cell formulas
to text files in R1C1 addressing syntax, grouping cells that should
contain the same formulas, and verifying that the formulas are in fact
identical. That just proves consistency. The next and final step is
checking that each distinct formula does what it should. That can be
tedious for very long formulas, but not impossible.
>b) accurate and strict data entry controls
You mean valid/reasonable entry. Inaccurate but technically valid
and/or reasonable entry is possible with any software, even databases.
It takes VBA, specifically, [Sheet]Change event handlers and validation
formulas. Neither prevent invalid entries up front, only catch them and
reverse them once made. Note that spreadsheets aren't unique in lacking
transaction capabilities that databases provide. That is a strength of
databases relative to spreadsheets. However, transactions don't prevent
all errors.
>c) portable method for transferring large amounts of data
...
Portable? Like ODBC? Every .XLS file may be an ODBC data source. As
such, any application capable of querying ODBC data sources could
consolidate data in .XLS files.
>i find it laughable that you talk to a database person like a junior--
>WE MOVE MORE NUMBERS IN AN HOUR THAN YOU DO IN A WEEK
...
Movers carry more PCs around than I do, but that doesn't make them
programmers. You move more numbers. You just don't understand what
those numers mean.
People who move stuff will always be able to find jobs working for the
people who know why that stuff needs to be moved.
aaron...@gmail.com
bigint Integer data from -2^63 through 2^63-1
bigint; close enough to a google that i'll never need to go that high..
damn spreadsheet kids probbaly don't even know why im talking about a
search engine when it comes to data types
'oh but i have to use 9 points of precision because we balance against
the euro market every night and i have to copy and paste all these
formulas around'
gag--
fucking idiots
get off your high horse kid learn some real tools
Re:
As for formulas, it takes work, but it involves writing cell formulas
to text files in R1C1 addressing syntax, grouping cells that should
contain the same formulas, and verifying that the formulas are in fact
identical. That just proves consistency. The next and final step is
checking that each distinct formula does what it should. That can be
tedious for very long formulas, but not impossible.
All i have to do is check the formula once per column.
you have to check it once per cell.
that is why you spend all your time jerking off; validating
spreadsheets.
and i spend my time kicking back on the beach and not stressing about
the 65,535 row limit
re
It takes VBA, specifically, [Sheet]Change event handlers and validation
formulas. Neither prevent invalid entries up front, only catch them and
reverse them once made. Note that spreadsheets aren't unique in lacking
transaction capabilities that databases provide. That is a strength of
databases relative to spreadsheets. However, transactions don't prevent
all errors.
I'll just disable macros and you won't be able to do a damn thing about
it.
or if you use excels' data type validation i will just copy and paste
values to get around that.
piece of shit ass program kids
a) i take more source data
b) more variables
c) more dimensions
d) more measures
e) more output
f) more automated
g) easier
i can schedule a transfer of data from one db to another in about 2
lines of code... or in about 5 seconds with a wizard.
where do you want to go today?
Harlan Grove
>I'm talking about bigints you fucktard
>bigint Integer data from -2^63 through 2^63-1
Which would be useless for storing noninteger data. And which wouldn't
affect the Var query function, which needs to work with double
precision floating point values.
>bigint; close enough to a google that i'll never need to go that high..
...
Probably. And integers are relatively worthless for most physical and
statistical
calculations, so you might as well be using strings. In case you can't
figure this out, what's the average of the bigints 12345678901234567890
and 12345678901234567891? How do you represent the average *EXACTLY* in
any SQL data type?
>'oh but i have to use 9 points of precision because we balance against
>the euro market every night and i have to copy and paste all these
>formulas around'
...
More examples needed? Long term bond yields require exponentiating 1
plus fractional interest rate several times, each time eating more of
the available, finite precision. Many bits of precision are needed in
order to calculate the current yields with reasonable accuracy. Also,
any simulation analysis involving long tails or catastrophes would be
dealing with probability values between .999999 and 1.0. Fortunately,
those of us who haven't forgotten most of the math we learned in school
are familiar with transformations which shift the calculations so that
they can use more of the fixed precision available. However, Access
doesn't, at least not with respect to its Var query function.
>All i have to do is check the formula once per column.
>you have to check it once per cell.
...
If I were doing it manually. However, with just a few tools, it's
usually necessary to test only one R1C1 formula per multiple column,
multiple row range.
>I'll just disable macros and you won't be able to do a damn thing about
>it.
...
Standard approach to dealing with this is using do-nothing udfs, e.g.,
Function donothing() : End Function
to add or append to all validation formulas. When macros are enabled,
Excel will treat the value returned by this function the same as the
value of blank cells, as zero when used numerically or "" when used as
text.
When macros are disabled, *ALL* udfs return #NAME? errors. With
validation formulas evaluating to errors, all formulas should also
evaluate to errors in properly written spreadsheets. If all formulas
evaluate to and display errors, the printouts aren't going to be very
useful.
That does lead to the question whether Excel workbooks can be secured
against *intentional* user manipulation. They can't. Excel lacks the
security features to prevent intentional changes by sophisticated
users.
>or if you use excels' data type validation i will just copy and paste
>values to get around that.
...
Not me. I use dropdown lists, but only as data entry shortcuts, not for
validation. In the workbooks I write, validation rules are calculated
in defined names.
noob2
erhm aaron, If we transfer all the excel data into access will it still
become rubbish??? Im sure you are smart enough to know that data that is
not usable in excel, when transfer into any database, you still get
rubbish.
Im not here to convince you that excel is good,
BUT
if you wanna compare using database, excel can do it.
if you wanna compare UI, excel can do it.
It their business to continue using excel. You can say all you want but
you still cant stop them or even their superior to stop using excel.
That is of course if you plant virus in all excel worksheet or hack all
the worksheet making them notice that it is not good in using excel.
[That depend on how good your hacking is...]
there is one more possibly to stop people from using excel. That is MS
stop providing excel. CAN YOU DO IT ?
--
noob2
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noob2
erhm aaron, If we transfer all the excel data into access will it still
greaseman
Sheesh! This mental midget named Aaron must have just discovered
Access. Also, he looks like he never did any more with Excel than
what's on the surface, so to speak. Wonder if his boss knows how much
time he's wasting on forums mumbling and ranting abouth things that he
is definitely ignorant about?
Last but not least, it takes a real moron to use his e-mail address as
a user name.... guess he couldn't figure how to set up a user name....
he probably thought he'd have to do it in Excel.
The person needs to get a life...... any kind of life. Must've had a
downer childhood!
--
greaseman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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JE McGimpsey
greaseman <greaseman.28msbz...@excelforum-nospam.com>
wrote:
> it takes a real moron to use his e-mail address as a user name....
> guess he couldn't figure how to set up a user name.... he probably
> thought he'd have to do it in Excel.
Not sure what you mean, here...
Only a rather small minority of posters use excelforum to post to
newsgroups.
Many of us read from and post directly to the news servers, and so don't
need a "username". Using a newsreader is much faster than having to go
through a web forum, and it's much more convenient, IMHO.
Using an alias is recommended by MS, since spambots harvest email
addresses, but my email provider does a fine job of screening spam, so
I'd rather give people a way to reach me if they want to. And using a
"username" that's not related to my real name seems a bit juvenile to
me. YMMV, of course.
If that makes me a "real moron", so be it...
greaseman
?? Not sure what you're discussing..... my comments were concerning the
moron, Aaron and his inability to come up with a user name in the
forum. I haven't used newsgroups for quite a while and simply thought
this was a forum, not a newsgroup.
In anycase, the moron Aaron has ranted and raved on this forum and I
doubt if he too would know anything about newsgroups, since he's
already demonstrted his lack of knowledge about other things so well.
What I was getting at was the fact that he didn't have the knowledge or
ability to give himself a user name and instead stupidly used his e-mail
address.
Every forum I have used highly recommends an e-mail address should not
be used or given, unless spam is desired. I am happy for you that your
e-mail provider takes care of your e-mail.... they must have figured out
enough algorithms and routines to "cut through" a lot of spam.
Juvenile or not, most forum members use some sort of User Name
concept.
"If that makes me a "real moron", so be it..." - no comment, since I
was discussing user names, not newsgroups, and secondly was discussing
the moron Aaron and his lack of tact and intelligence.
Don Guillett
--
Don Guillett
SalesAid Software
dguil...@austin.rr.com
"greaseman" <greaseman.28mvca...@excelforum-nospam.com> wrote
in message news:greaseman.28mvca...@excelforum-nospam.com...