Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB .Net
Homer J Simpson
I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
.Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
reasonable support.
I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
sense.
H
Dennis
Programming in VB 6.0 will probably result in a lot of problems down the road
as I'm sure M'soft will not support it much longer.
Also, you might be more satisfied with the Standard or Pro versions of VB.Net.
--
Dennis in Houston
"Homer J Simpson" wrote:
>
> I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
> ..Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
Brad Rogers
you take a break, then think about what vb.net is and why youre frustrated
with it.
vb.net is object oriented. its powerful. its a revolution in computer
science.
it takes hard work to shift from VB6 to vb.net so realize that all of us
who catch up, had to work hard. Ive programmed with it, learned the hard
way, and after x years of software engineering had to take 2 college
semester courses in vb.net just to be able to start using it right. I
started the 'basic' series in qbasic, and jumped in with VB4 then 5, 6 and
was struggling to grasp .net in 2002. its still a learning curve.
There is no "non functioning software" vb.net is a revolution in computer
science. You have to think like Java and C++. vb.net is advanced and its
hard to learn, it takes time.
It reminds me of people who fixed vacuum tube tv sets, then the new
transistor sets came out? some couldnt grasp transistors and stayed with
tube only. In cars, some people couldnt learn smog controls, oh those are
so stupid, all the hoses and wires, why bother.
"Homer J Simpson" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:fPYrf.12677$AP5.3104@edtnps84...
Homer J Simpson
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4PZrf.6025$x%2.2604@trnddc06...
> If I had a megaphone, I might say: "step away from the computer" and have
> you take a break, then think about what vb.net is and why youre frustrated
> with it.
>
> vb.net is object oriented. its powerful. its a revolution in computer
> science.
>
> it takes hard work to shift from VB6 to vb.net
That's not my complaint. My complaint is that the whole procedure of trying
to upgrade has been frustrated by stunningly inept efforts on the part of
Microsoft to provide support for such migration. I doubt that they have ever
actually tried to step through the process themselves or had a test group
try to do this while someone took notes. It's a sloppy disorganized mess,
and those involved should be ashamed.
Brad Rogers
I really dont see the problem, you must re-write the majority of the
application in .net using OO priniples. What upgrade?
And Im told there is talk of a new version of VB to support the old VB6
users who dont want to migrate to OOP. (or are not able to grasp it)
I had to transition and have others also transition, its the cost of doing
business, but can you give an example(s) of something thats not being done
right? Its very possible I missed what youre describing
Homer J Simpson
> Do you mean upgrade your existing VB6 code into .net?
No. I'm talking about getting to "Hello World" without finding code that
won't compile, links that are broken, training materials which drift off
into irrelevancy.
> I really dont see the problem, you must re-write the majority of the
> application in .net using OO priniples. What upgrade?
>
> And Im told there is talk of a new version of VB to support the old VB6
> users who dont want to migrate to OOP. (or are not able to grasp it)
I'm quite familiar with OOP -- and CASE for that matter.
> I had to transition and have others also transition, its the cost of doing
> business, but can you give an example(s) of something thats not being done
> right? Its very possible I missed what youre describing
Perhaps you were luckier than me. I'm used to dealing with the odd quirk or
obstacle. This far exceeds that.
Brad Rogers
was familiar with and developed in for business? and only now am really a
beginner. And I used to work with punched cards... I was upset at the
vb6 to .net change at first, then one day it made sense. I hope that same
joy and fulfillment comes your way soon.
Its been my experience that there are great links and examples, but the ones
with video tutorials are best IMO. If you visit the
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/ website? You will find the newest
training, for free. Its too awesome.
If you know OO, then vb.net should be a huge relief, easier to code than vb6
The only tech docs that were bad, that Ive found so far, were on the subject
of delegates, but I gave feedback and MSDN responded with some improvements.
Delegates are so hard to learn, there is no training. You have to simply
already understand them and use them. Delegates are so hard to understand
you have to actually create a parallel universe where you already know how
they work. Then the documentation makes sense. Worked for me.
"Homer J Simpson" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bz%rf.12697$AP5.9062@edtnps84...
PJ on Development
Like most developers of my generation I had my first contact with
computers with BASIC... some 20 years ago.
When I started coding in BASIC the most powerful systems were developed
using COBOL, Fortran, Algol, etc...
(If you want to know a little bit more about it take a look at my
blog... at http://pjondevelopment.50webs.com/)
Anyway... Back then all you had to do to program in BASIC was pull up a
chair, sit on your computer and (usually) start typing something
like...
2 CLS
10 PRINT "Hello World!"
20 GOTO 10
Hehe... It was easy... :-P
As I grew older BASIC grew up with me... It overcome many obstacles in
its way. It left the ugly spaghetti programing, to become a procedural
language... when you need to type something like:
Sub Main()
While (True)
Print "Hello World!"
Wend
End Sub
Then BASIC became an event-oriented programming (as of Visual Basic 1.0
for DOS -- I still have the Install :-) Where you'd need to type
something like
Sub Button_Click()
MsgBox "Hello World!"
End Sub
And for quite some time it was a event-oriented language... regarded as
a second level language for many C programmers that like their curly
brackets and their ugly syntax.
The difficulty to develop software was ever increasing as the time went
by. Computers got twice as much power every six months... Moore's Law
were obeyed more than Gravity's Law.
BASIC wasn't keeping up with the demands of this new era... Many saw
the end of BASIC as certain as death and taxes...
But then in 2001 Microsoft presented us with VB.NET...
It was not the BASIC everyone knew... yet, it was a familiar ground...
something that we understand... we knew we could Master.
The learning curve was not that steep... but there was a learning
curve. It takes time. We need to learn how to do simple things once
more... but it was good... it was fun...
And that's what everything is about... FUN!
Sure thing... A lot of us code for money... but a great deal more code
because it's FUN! (and if we are paid for doing this... it is even
better :-)
If you code for some time you know what I am talking about...
With VB.NET we need to learn about Classes, Interfaces, Polymorphism,
Overloads, Shadows, Inheritance, etc, etc, etc...
So many new things were thrown so hard at us that many of us had a very
hard time adjusting themselves. But we managed to learn everything we
need to know.
Now... if you want to write that "Hello World" program now with VB.NET
2005, all you have to do is:
Module HelloWorld
Sub Main()
Do While (True)
System.Console.WriteLine("Hello World!")
Loop
End Sub
End Module
Oh yeah! I forgot to mention... we can build console application again
now too.. :-)
Regards,
PJ
m.posseth
if you want some good guidance and especially if you are a VB6 programmer
moving to VB.Net i would recomend "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .Net "
by Francesco Balena ( Microsoft Press ) this book has it all clear examples
of everything there is to know ( the 2005 versions comes out in middle
january )
maybe you know francesco`s book already from the VB6 world ( programming
Microsoft visual basic 6.0 ) these books are the official core references so
anyone who is serious about programming in VB should have them on his book
shelf
this book wil be a reall money saver as you will discover ( i never followed
courses , and i am working as a pro programmer , the core reference , the
self paced training kit , and a MSDN subscription was enough for me )
regards
Michel Posseth [MCP]
"Homer J Simpson" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bz%rf.12697$AP5.9062@edtnps84...
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
Isn't this discussion 5 years old?
Sounds to me like you are still running an early beta of VS2005.
Otherwise I cannot recognize your problems.
If you can only work with full, F5-able samples, go download
something like
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/downloads/101samples/default.aspx
If you are serious about development, what are you doing with the
Express editions? If you are spending valuable time learning a new
development tool, wouldn't you rather learn it using the full version
rather than a cut-down one? Otherwise you would have to go through
a lot of the same stuff again when you move to real development tasks.
I am sure that the Express editions are fine for learning basic (pun
intended) programming skills, but I would not expect to be able to
load and run all the samples I could find on the web.
As for VB6: I used VB4-6 for 8 years and loved it. Whatever I hit the
wall, I could usually solve my problems by making calls directly to
the Win32 API. Nowadays, when I open one of my old VB6 projects,
it feels like a toy language and it takes me quite a while to get my
head into VB6 mode in order to do something productive.
But I'll stop now: Seeing that you are posting anonymously in a
group like this, I presume you are just a troll.
/JB
stand__sure
All of us have had different paths to .NET, but almost all of us agree
that the destination has been worth reaching.
Yes, the MSDN .NET BCL documentation lacks something (namely cogent
examples; it would also be nice if the constructor lists showed more
than types; etc.), but if memory serves, the early MFC was (dare I say)
worse -- much worse.
The encapsulation of common WinAPI functions, the wealth of simple and
consistent forms controls (is it caption? is it label? no, it is
*always* Text now), the consistency of event handler code, generics,
etc. etc. etc. All of these are good things.
Throw into the mix type safety, code-access security, simplified
licensing, etc. and you have a really great set of tools with which to
write almost any application.
Yes, change can be painful, but in this case, the rewards far outweigh
the costs. Who ever dreamed of the day when you could write a Windows
application, a web application, an XML web service, a COM+
application,... all in the same language without having to import all
sorts of byzantine Win32 structures, without having to import a lot of
win32 dll functions, etc.? The destination is well worth the effort.
Now, if we could just get Microsoft to make all of the features in
VB.NET and C#.NET the same (anonymous delegates, the wonderful default
keyword, etc.) then life would be even better...
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
There is told that the current situation with MSDN is one of the major goals
to improve soon.
In my opinion you are right at the moment, it is for me as well at the
moment terrible, while it was real good, if you keep in mind what ammount of
information is in it.
Just my thought,
Cor.
"Homer J Simpson" <nob...@nowhere.com> schreef in bericht
news:fPYrf.12677$AP5.3104@edtnps84...
Michael D. Ober
configuration control on www.microsoft.com. There have been innumerable
times in the past where I have clicked a link on the MS web-site only to
have it go off into never-land. Sounds like the VB portions of the site are
being reorganized while on-line. Both the VB 2005 and VB 6 support links
are seriously broken.
Mike Ober.
"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:4ks1r196cskc3unfe...@4ax.com...
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
ok. I rarely use the Microsoft site. Only the online documentation.
I always have complete copies of MSDN Library October 2001
(for my VS6 needs), MSDN Library for Visual Studio 2005, as well
as the latest version of MSDN Library (October 2005 at the moment)
installed locally on my machine.
For the rest of my research I use community sites and newsgroups.
If I need to figure out what the framework is doing under the hood,
I use .Net Reflector, which is a great study aid. I simply cannot
heap enough praise on this tool. Notice how I mention the use of
it in every other post I make :)
Then there are the books, articles, and open source projects: Whenever
I get hold of a book in pdf or chm format, it goes into a "Research"
folder (chm files are decompiled to html files). Web pages containing
interesting articles and source snippets are saved to this folder as
well. Finally, open source or public source (or what you care to call
them) projects are downloaded and unzipped to this folder.
I then use Copernic Desktop Search to search through all this stuff.
On my machine, Copernic is *only* configured to index files stored in
this folder, so if I want to see some uses of a specific .Net command,
I can just open Copernic Desktop Search and type the command,
which usually produces a number of results in various contexts.
So with all of the above, I have not had any need for the Microsoft
site - except when a Google result brings me directly to an article on
the site.
Which must be why any problems you might have experienced have
completely slipped under my radar.
Regards,
Joergen Bech
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
>
> If I need to figure out what the framework is doing under the hood,
> I use .Net Reflector, which is a great study aid. I simply cannot
> heap enough praise on this tool. Notice how I mention the use of
> it in every other post I make :)
>
The problem I have with the use of tools as reflector is that we see that
they are often overused.
In my opinion has it in a normal situation no sence to gain some
milliseconds. The user is not fast enough for that. The way a program is
written and with that the maintainability is in my opinion much more
important.
Reflector should only be used if there are problems that cannot be overcome.
However that is my opinion.
Cor
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
That is why I said it was a great *study* aid. Although I do sometimes
use it to figure out what objects cause the least overhead, my main
use of it is to study how the framework classes are structured and fit
together. This provides some inspiration when I write my own classes
for tasks not directly supported in the framework.
I agree that for most tasks, there is no reason to look under the
hood. The implementation details might change, so optimizing for
the current CLR implementation might not be a good idea in the
long run.
But:
1) It is good to look at other people's code once in a while. Whether
through Reflector, the code produced by a colleague, or some open
source project. That way I am introduced to classes and collections
I have not stumbled across before in other contexts. At least when
looking at the framework through Reflector, I know that I am looking
at working production code - and learning a few things about the
framework at the same time.
2) I do a fair amount of graphics programming, which sometimes
requires writing highly optimized loops, caching calculations, and
so on and so forth. In those situations, I *do* care a lot about how
the compiler treats my code. Sometimes to the point where I rewrite
a loop in C (after prototyping/writing and debugging it in .Net, of
course:) ), and call it from managed code.
3) In some cases I might use the "wrong" constructor for an
object. When I look at it in Reflector, I might see that this
constructor calls another constructor (or uses an entirely
different class to do its work). If, that way, I find that the classes
used under the hood are more appropriate for my task, I'll
rewrite my code to use those classes directly. I consider this
to result in much cleaner code *provided* of course that it
does not mean writing *more* code.
Hope that makes it a bit clearer.
/JB
Homer J Simpson
"PJ on Development" <pjondev...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135657527....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Hi...
>
> Like most developers of my generation I had my first contact with
> computers with BASIC... some 20 years ago.
>
> When I started coding in BASIC the most powerful systems were developed
> using COBOL, Fortran, Algol, etc...
I started with punch cards on an Elliot 503. First language was Algol 68.
Like I say, I've worked with many a buggy system, but my complaint with VB
.Net isn't the language, it's the abysmal Microsoft support. ISTM that they
rushed it out without really checking what they were doing. For example, the
DVD library software they use as an example accesses Amazon for data.
Unfortunately they screwed up the access system and it breaks on many of
Amazon's pages, something which is not handled. Now you wind up poking
around in poorly documented code trying to figure out what the error is. And
this is just one of many failures. If they had chosen simpler examples,
something which accessed stable pages for data, it would have been much more
helpful IMO.
Homer J Simpson
"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:4ks1r196cskc3unfe...@4ax.com...
> But I'll stop now: Seeing that you are posting anonymously in a
> group like this, I presume you are just a troll.
I post anonymously from a deep desire to avoid solicitations to enlarge
various parts of my body - some of which body parts I do not have.
You should learn the difference between actual trolling and reasoned
complaints which are fully justified.
Homer J Simpson
> That is why I said it was a great *study* aid. Although I do sometimes
> use it to figure out what objects cause the least overhead, my main
> use of it is to study how the framework classes are structured and fit
> together. This provides some inspiration when I write my own classes
> for tasks not directly supported in the framework.
When I was learning C I found the Mix debugger was almost magical in it's
ability to show you what the compiler was doing. I would still recommend
that combination to anyone learning C.
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
When I wrote my first game in machine code, I was writing it
on paper with the mnemonics to the left and the opcodes to
the right. I would then POKE the values into memory in a
FOR ... NEXT loop. Then I would save my work to tape
before I ran it (I would add new code below the previous,
finished work, hoping the game would be done before I hit
the bottom of the memory). If it crashed, I could only cry.
Later, when moving on to better hardware, I could actually
study dumps of the memory when something went wrong.
Well, sometimes ...
Ah, those were the days.
Wrong group. Better get back to VB now.
/JB
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
<nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
>news:4ks1r196cskc3unfe...@4ax.com...
>
>> But I'll stop now: Seeing that you are posting anonymously in a
>> group like this, I presume you are just a troll.
>
>I post anonymously from a deep desire to avoid solicitations to enlarge
>various parts of my body - some of which body parts I do not have.
I have had the same email account for nearly 10 years. A pain in
the neck. Until my ISP installed a spam filter. Now, I hardly ever get
any spam mails. Sure was a problem back then, though.
>You should learn the difference between actual trolling and reasoned
>complaints which are fully justified.
Well, you *did* post anonymously and seeing that the topic has been
discussed to death a month ago when everybody finally realized that
the release date for VS2005 RTM had been chiseled in stone but
Microsoft had been fixing problems up to the very last minute (or so
it appears to me), your post sounded like flame bait :)
My humble apologies.
/JB
Homer J Simpson
>>You should learn the difference between actual trolling and reasoned
>>complaints which are fully justified.
>
> Well, you *did* post anonymously and seeing that the topic has been
> discussed to death a month ago when everybody finally realized that
> the release date for VS2005 RTM had been chiseled in stone but
> Microsoft had been fixing problems up to the very last minute (or so
> it appears to me), your post sounded like flame bait :)
No, I'm just a late adopter. I just upgraded to XP a month ago.
I always feel sorry for Bill Gates' first born kid.
"Never buy Microsoft Version 1.0 of ANYTHING".
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
When Algol 68/Cobol started there was no direct user interface input (beside
styles as faking a cardreader or a single value input from a teletype)
At the start of BASIC there was no mouse and no Windows.
Try to keep that in mind, (the enormous ammount of events that can happen
now and to be managed while this is only one aspect) and I assume that you
get an idea why things had to change.
I hope this helps,
Cor
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
I always feel sorry for Bill Gates' first born kid.
>
> "Never buy Microsoft Version 1.0 of ANYTHING".
>
This is often impossible.
IE was free
Frontpage Express was free
I am more scared by 'even' versions, which have in my idea a worse
expirience. Those even version are often loaded by things that seems to come
from the mind of some individuals, who thought that they had to extend to
the good starting versions. Than in the next version they are really good.
While in my mind mostly the x.1 versions are the best. Dos 1.1, Dos 3.1,
Windows 3.1(1) NT 5.1, VB 7.1.
:-)
Cor
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
VB3. VB6, and VS2005 are all "version 3.0"-products, which in
Microsoft terms means mature and stable, etc.
Here are some links you'll enjoy (as I said: discussed to death):
http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2005/11/hey-shareholders-vs-2005-is-fantastic.html
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,2180,1882596,00.asp
http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma/archive/2005/11/03/429371.aspx
http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=31329
http://www.panopticoncentral.net/archive/2005/11/09/10727.aspx
As one poster in the links above wrote: "If you are unhappy with
VS2005, go back to VS2003". Plenty of stuff to learn and work with
in VS2003. Wait for the VS2005 service pack to be released.
As far as I understand it, the problems are in the IDE - the compiler
is supposed to be rock solid. So far, that is my experience too.
/JB
Pieter
udnerstand some decisions either...
For instance: the DataGridView could have been a lovely control, especially
with the DataGridViewComboBoxColumn. But those idiots managed to use some
kind of 'new' combobox in it, that has only 10% of the possibility's of a
normal combobox. So the whole stuff is useless... The 'old' DataGrid still
is better :-(
Paul Clement
¤
¤ I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
¤ .Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
¤ signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
¤ whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
¤ broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
¤ don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
¤ reasonable support.
¤
¤ I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
¤ reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
¤ sense.
Are you looking for help or is this just a rant?
If you're having problems and are actually looking for a solution then you're going to have to be a
bit more specific concerning your complaints.
Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
Homer J Simpson
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfi...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:ehPY7Q4C...@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
But when you buy a new car you expect to be able to drive it away from the
dealer. You don't expect that you will have to bring your own gas, oil and
water just to get the damn thing going. You don't expect that you will only
drive it a block before one of the tires explodes. You don't expect that the
battery is only good for 3 starts before you have to replace it. Yet that is
often the experience you have with computers in general, and Microsoft in
particular.
Homer J Simpson
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressA...@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
news:3295r15hev1akbkba...@4ax.com...
> Are you looking for help or is this just a rant?
>
> If you're having problems and are actually looking for a solution then
> you're going to have to be a
> bit more specific concerning your complaints.
I was looking for comments. I wondered if my experience was typical, or if
the fickle finger of fate had selected me. Apparently it's even worse than I
imagined. At least VB6 pretty much does what you expect with minimal
problems. It may not be perfect, but working beats not working IME.
Paul Clement
¤
¤ "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressA...@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help. ;-)
mstrc...@gmail.com
No I'm not complaining about changes... not at all...
I was simply telling my history a little bit.
Take a look at my site... :-)
http://pjondevelopment.50webs.com/
Regards,
PJ
Homer J Simpson
<mstrc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1135809008.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> http://pjondevelopment.50webs.com/
IME Firefox problems are caused by bad page design or elements (graphics
etc).
Homer J Simpson
> Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help.
> ;-)
Every time I fire up the environment it asks me to register, again,
promising benefits. If I do register - again - I get yet another thank you
email which points me to a webpage which seems to be totally irrelevant to
VB .Net but I cannot get any of the promised benefits. And so it goes.
Brad Rogers
excellent product, just because its Microsoft, is that it? Yep thats it.
If youve been around since punched cards? there is no excuse for what youve
said about vb.net So since you cannot substantiate the claim in reality,
why bother people who use vb.net and know its an outstanding product?
> But when you buy a new car you expect to be able to drive it away from the
> dealer. You don't expect that you will have to bring your own gas, oil and
> water just to get the damn thing going. You don't expect that you will
only
> drive it a block before one of the tires explodes. You don't expect that
the
> battery is only good for 3 starts before you have to replace it. Yet that
is
> often the experience you have with computers in general, and Microsoft in
> particular.
Yeah, sure... whatever
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
> But when you buy a new car you expect to be able to drive it away from the
> dealer. You don't expect that you will have to bring your own gas, oil and
> water just to get the damn thing going. You don't expect that you will
> only drive it a block before one of the tires explodes. You don't expect
> that the battery is only good for 3 starts before you have to replace it.
> Yet that is often the experience you have with computers in general, and
> Microsoft in particular.
>
Not my expirience, my expirience is that people who are hardly able to drive
a bicycle wants direct to drive a Ferari and ask than why there is not an
automatic gearbox or things like that in it.
(And therefore Ferari made their care worse to let those people that asked
things like that as well drive in a car with a nameplate Ferari on it).
Just my thought,
Cor
Pieter
terrible bugs, half-featered controls, etc...
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HVLsf.34951$7P2.34888@trnddc07...
Pieter
> things like that as well drive in a car with a nameplate Ferari on it).
Ah, just like me you don't like that neither on your Ferrari?
;-)
Paul Clement
¤
¤ "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressA...@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
¤
I'll check it out to see if I can repro the problem.
Brad Rogers
You referred to Microsoft or their product developers as "those idiots" ?
Are you just trying to pitch some open source product after saying you know
what its like to use Visual Studio and its so terrible, etc?
I could use any IDE on the market. Ive checked out many of them but found
Microsoft to be the best, period. Best product, best support, in other
words, the best. So thats what I use.
Open source is fine for hobbyists or whatever. But methinks your bashing of
Microsoft was done for things from around 10 years ago and the bashing lacks
substantiation. If people want an open source product, they can find them.
Advertising here by claiming Visual Studio is bad? In fact, which open
source are you guys plugging?
Ill check it and see if it can withstand the same scrutiny.
"Pieter" <pieter...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23sF$elFDGH...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Brad Rogers
Even though the IDE works flawlessly and is the best there is? the giant
problem you have is a registration page...
yeah...sure, whatever
Which Open Source program are you trying to promote here?
Randall Arnold
encountered so far. I can only imagine what problems lie ahead.
And contrary to Brad's simplistic, broad assertion, I for one am a true VB
and VB.NET afficianado-- I'm just disappointed in what I've experienced so
far with VB.NET, particularly on ASP.NET pages. It's not ready for prime
time. Too many crucial features are missing or immature. The pathetic
Clipboard limitations are a prime example. I can't even copy an html table
to the Clipboard for crying out loud! That's just unacceptable IMO, and I
feel Homer's pain.
Randall Arnold
"Pieter" <pieter...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23sF$elFDGH...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Randall Arnold
Good luck!
Randall Arnold
"Paul Clement" <UseAdddressA...@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
news:s2u5r113gp19gkvfb...@4ax.com...
Randall Arnold
Congratulations: you may be the only person to be able to say that. I sure
can't.
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PtVsf.5782$Ff6.3709@trnddc01...
Homer J Simpson
> OH geez, what a huge disappointment, its that Microsoft for you, right?
> Even though the IDE works flawlessly and is the best there is? the giant
> problem you have is a registration page...
>
> yeah...sure, whatever
>
> Which Open Source program are you trying to promote here?
Ignoring your obvious trolling, what I am saying is that VB6 worked fine. It
was easy to use and provided functional results. Sure, there were things
about it that could have been better, but when you can put a useful program
together in less than 30 minutes you have something of value.
I just picked up a copy of "Visual Basic .Net Step by Step". Over 600 pages
and at the end you can spin three digits and see a picture if one is a 7.
You can access a database - but not easily. You can write code for a web
page - that only works with IE. Yep, that's impressive.
Object orientation is a solution looking for a problem. In all of the code I
have written in over 30 years I've never once thought, "Wow, if only this
module could inherit from that module, or if I had yet another way to limit
the scope of variables (encapsulation)."
Give me VB7 and a simple way to design and build help files. VB .Net may
look better - but it isn't better.
Homer J Simpson
"Randall Arnold" <randall...@nokia.com> wrote in message
news:eJKkhgMD...@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Here's an example: try using the Starter Kits in Visual Web developer
> 2005.
I tried "Amazon-Enabled Movie Collection Starter Kit". Didn't work. I poked
around in the code and hacked it to work, but it's god awful complicated for
what it does. The others were odd and uninteresting.
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
> The pathetic Clipboard limitations are a prime example. I can't even copy
> an html table to the Clipboard for crying out loud! That's just
> unacceptable IMO, and I feel Homer's pain.
>
That has nothing to do with Net. Have a look at my explanation about this in
the thread of your problem.
The way you can use the clipboard in not Web applications is outstanding in
Net.
Cor
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
For most of us is VB6 is more than 3 years ago.
We have seen all those messages you make now done by many people.
Almost everyone who had written that was making afterwards messages as.
"I had a lot to say about VB.Net. Now they will have to pull me at my hairs
screaming back to VB6 if that is needed?
Cor
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
>Object orientation is a solution looking for a problem. In all of the code I
>have written in over 30 years I've never once thought, "Wow, if only this
>module could inherit from that module, or if I had yet another way to limit
>the scope of variables (encapsulation)."
If you are thinking about silly textbook examples OO, maybe.
But when (if) you move from VB6 to .Net and find that you can (e.g.)
just add
those properties and methods to the standard TextBox control you
always wanted, you'll eventually start using OO principles more and
more - to the point where VB6 will seem like a toy and you would
rather switch career than go back.
OO practices are used throughout the framework itself.
If you haven't been exposed to OO principles in your 30 years of
coding (by writing Java or C++ or whatever), it might take a while
to get it. If you have, but still don't get it, you probably never
will. Have you thought about retirement?
>Give me VB7 and a simple way to design and build help files. VB .Net may
>look better - but it isn't better.
I felt the same way. I could do anything I wanted in VB6, but after
one month with .Net, I was sold.
Now I say: Bury Classic VB. Let's have none of this compatibility
crap. Force people to move on.
But not to worry: There will still be a need for VB6 programmers for
years to come. Same as there is still a need for COBOL programmers.
Those old systems still need to be maintained until they can be
replaced.
/JB
PS: Just fanning the flames. Heh ... this thread is going to live for
a while. And when it dies, someone will eventually start a similar
one.
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
>"I had a lot to say about VB.Net. Now they will have to pull me at my hairs
>screaming back to VB6 if that is needed?
I just read this article:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html
and if you go back in the archive, you'll find this one:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html
which ends on this note:
"And while these great tools, like modern OO forms-based languages,
let us get a lot of work done incredibly quickly, suddenly one day we
need to figure out a problem where the abstraction leaked, and it
takes 2 weeks. And when you need to hire a programmer to do mostly VB
programming, it's not good enough to hire a VB programmer, because
they will get completely stuck in tar every time the VB abstraction
leaks."
I agree. It is very useful to know what is going on under the covers
so one can work around limitations of the abstraction. Served me well
to know more than VB6 when I was doing VB6. Serves me well to
know more than VB.Net now that I am doing VB.Net. But in this case,
"more" does not mean VB6 - it still means what I did besides VB6.
The only use I have of my knowledge of VB6 is when I need to
port old VB6 code to VB.Net.
Programming in VB.Net gives me access to the enormous .Net
framework, meaning I have to write less plumbing myself. It also
gives me access to data types and operations I was missing in
VB6 when doing "low-level" work. So VB.Net, to me, is an expansion
of capabilities in both directions. I am not implying that VB6 is a
Turing machine. Just that it can sometimes be harder to do something
in VB6 than would be the case in .Net.
Note: This, of course, is provided that the one doing the something
is new to both languages or new to the aspects of the languages
required to do the job; The one who knows VB6 like the back of his
hand can run rings around a programmer who is new to VB.Net, but
take two equally experienced programmers and there is just no
competition.
/JB
GreggMB
"philosophy"/trend and poor practices seen not just in one version of one
product, not even within one of MS Divisions, it's over-all problem of big
company that does not have enough competition to give a ... (you know what).
Over past few years I started regretting that I focused on MS technologies
(I was totally emerged in it and every new thing was a great deal of
excitement for me... but that apparently is a "past" as my disgust with some
of MS practices keeps growing and growing...).
Which is too bad. This largest, most financially "potent" corporation could
really re-focus and channel their resources in more positive directions....
And after all we have to remember: this is all about money. Only the
products that generate substantial profit are always in focus.
"Homer J Simpson" wrote:
>
> I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
> ..Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
> signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
> whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
> broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
> don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
> reasonable support.
>
> I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
> reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
> sense.
>
> H
>
>
>
Brad Rogers
stuff. It makes my hiring task much easier. Or the vb6 is better than
dotnet and OO is so difficult I cannot cope, but Ive been coding for 120
years and was the founder of the "B" programming language..
Yep... old B programming language Frisbee they used to call me. One day
they had a team of 50 programmers who couldnt figure out a task, took em 3
weeks but I went in there and in 10 minutes had the computer working just as
smooth as silk. Got a call from the United States president himself wantin
to thank me just as sure as youre listenin to me talk now...
Kind of reminds me of the time I designed a new rocket engine for NASA. Old
rocket propulsion Frisbee they used to call me. Why did you know that I
single handedly.....
>
> If you are thinking about silly textbook examples OO, maybe.
>
> But when (if) you move from VB6 to .Net and find that you can (e.g.)
> just add
> those properties and methods to the standard TextBox control you
> always wanted, you'll eventually start using OO principles more and
> more - to the point where VB6 will seem like a toy and you would
> rather switch career than go back.
>
> OO practices are used throughout the framework itself.
>
> If you haven't been exposed to OO principles in your 30 years of
> coding (by writing Java or C++ or whatever), it might take a while
> to get it. If you have, but still don't get it, you probably never
> will. Have you thought about retirement?
>
>
Homer J Simpson
"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:7es9r11qtm165t0kq...@4ax.com...
> If you haven't been exposed to OO principles in your 30 years of
> coding (by writing Java or C++ or whatever), it might take a while
> to get it. If you have, but still don't get it, you probably never
> will. Have you thought about retirement?
Maybe I'll go back to teaching computer science.
Brad Rogers
vb.net is confusing and it doesnt work. You probably wont be able to figure
out example 1.5 in the book, anyone? you did? everyone figured it out? show
me... okay class, ummm class dismissed.
Homer J Simpson
> Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help.
> ;-)
I downloaded "Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition - Build a Program
Now!.pdf"
Throughout this book there are many links to websites with more
information - except they aren't links and you can't click on them. So OK,
I'll cut and paste the link text into the browser - except the whole book
has been created in some perverse version of Unicode and you can't cut and
paste it. And the same applies to the code samples in the book. Come on, who
thought this was a good idea? What was the point?
YAB (Yet Another Bug)
Homer J Simpson
> Yeah, sure that would be a positive thing to try. Now class, Microsoft
> vb.net is confusing and it doesnt work. You probably wont be able to
> figure
> out example 1.5 in the book, anyone? you did? everyone figured it out?
> show
> me... okay class, ummm class dismissed.
I've taught C as a first programming language in 4 days, start to finish.
And yes, I did cover pointers and pointers to functions. I've taught all
aspects of Unix and shell script programming. I've successfully taught under
terrible conditions - like no working computers.
But YOU can't seem to comprehend the difference between the product and the
delivery. I still don't know if VBNet is any good because at every turn I am
hampered by Microsoft's lousy efforts to support the transition. It's like
having a mechanic work on your car who is great - but he scratches up the
body and leaves greasy stains on the upholstery and returns the car with no
gas and a flat battery.
Brad Rogers
with technical aspects, because youre complaining about the 'delivery', but
I have yet to actually see the same problem. vb.net is complex, its massive
and its hard to understand.
Interesting analogy to the mechanic, but I havent experienced that problem,
and used vb.net since 2002. Some details are sketchy but they fix them. It
appears vb.net is one of the greatest accomplishments in Microsoft history.
> I've taught C as a first programming language in 4 days, start to finish.
> And yes, I did cover pointers and pointers to functions. I've taught all
> aspects of Unix and shell script programming. I've successfully taught
under
> terrible conditions - like no working computers.
>
> But YOU can't seem to comprehend the difference between the product and
the
> delivery. I still don't know if VBNet is any good because at every turn I
am
> hampered by Microsoft's lousy efforts to support the transition. It's like
> having a mechanic work on your car who is great - but he scratches up the
> body and leaves greasy stains on the upholstery and returns the car with
no
> gas and a flat battery.
>
>
int main (void) {
int x = 3;
int y = 2;
y = x++ + x++;
printf("the answer is: ", y);
return 0;
}
what is y?
>
Randall Arnold
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:FJetf.29$yW1.14@trnddc05...
Randall Arnold
history"
VB.net on *winforms* is great. Yeah, I felt like Homer at first: the
transition from vb6 to VB.Net 2005 was painful. VERY painful. But I was
determined to get it and when the light clicked, man... from that point on
it all just flowed. And I began to hate dealing with legacy VB6 code.
But then I tried to use VB.Net on asp.net web pages. And the pain began
anew... only thanks to Microsoft's paranoia of the internet also extending
to the intranet, I don't think THIS pain is going to ease. It's just gonna
get worse.
Greatest accomplishment? Sure-- with caveats.
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lJhtf.50$713.6@trnddc01...
Randall Arnold
I never encountered this clipboard prejudice against objects until I tried
moving the VB6 app in question to asp.net. I am told it's a security issue.
Security on an INTRANET app??? Restricting me from copying objects to the
clipboard in my own corporate environ??? Now just who is that supposed to
protect against?
Pure paranoia. And no, if I can't copy objects, it's NOT outstanding Cor,
sorry.
Randall Arnold
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfi...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:ursMyiRD...@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Homer J Simpson
"Randall Arnold" <rgar...@cathartis.com_> wrote in message
news:uw5wil2D...@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> It has EVERYTHING to do with .net!
>
> I never encountered this clipboard prejudice against objects until I tried
> moving the VB6 app in question to asp.net. I am told it's a security
> issue. Security on an INTRANET app??? Restricting me from copying objects
> to the clipboard in my own corporate environ??? Now just who is that
> supposed to protect against?
>
> Pure paranoia. And no, if I can't copy objects, it's NOT outstanding Cor,
> sorry.
Security is an excuse that has worked well for the current US
administration. You can translate it as, "We just don't wanna"!
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
> It has EVERYTHING to do with .net!
>
> I never encountered this clipboard prejudice against objects until I tried
> moving the VB6 app in question to asp.net.
If you did use the IIS class from VB6, you would have the same problems.
The problem is just that the complete system of the client becomes more and
more closed from the InterNet side, you are not the only one with this
problem.
.Net does not mean Internet it uses only in a lot of cases the same
philosophy. (Hopefully never all those security limitations).
Cor
Brad Rogers
Microsoft is so bad... I see the pattern now. Microsoft's products needed
improvement in security? So they put effort to solving the problem. The US
administration also saw a need for security, since it was so lacking? And we
have massive efforts to fix that security. But to some, you just cant win,
Microsoft is now paranoid, and how dare the US admin spy on terrorists.
Some people would complain that there was nothing to complain about.
Brad Rogers
dialog has failed.
Since new years was approaching and everyone watches the Twilight Zone
marathon, people should know who Frisbee is.
"Randall Arnold" <rgar...@cathartis.com_> wrote in message
news:e6iuHh2D...@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Joergen Bech <jbechpost1.tele.dk>
Homer J Simpson
> Aha, this must be part of the problem, the Bush white house is so bad,
> Microsoft is so bad... I see the pattern now. Microsoft's products needed
> improvement in security? So they put effort to solving the problem. The
> US
> administration also saw a need for security, since it was so lacking? And
> we
> have massive efforts to fix that security. But to some, you just cant
> win,
> Microsoft is now paranoid, and how dare the US admin spy on terrorists.
>
> Some people would complain that there was nothing to complain about.
The concept of "tongue in cheek" escapes you somehow?
Brad Rogers
great. So then you actually DO support the Bush Admin? Thats great.
I like to give credit where its due, there is a lot that I dont know about
in politics, but do know when to trust a good leader (Bush). And do
recognize Microsoft makes spectacular products, its a great time to be
coding.
I propose a toast in this time of New Year celebration, for success and
increasing prosperity
"Homer J Simpson" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ekhuf.28514$m05.20960@clgrps12...
Homer J Simpson
> Tongue in cheek? I never knew what that meant but if its that youre
> kidding?
> great. So then you actually DO support the Bush Admin? Thats great.
>
> I like to give credit where its due, there is a lot that I dont know about
> in politics, but do know when to trust a good leader (Bush). And do
> recognize Microsoft makes spectacular products, its a great time to be
> coding.
Obviously you also go to Dr. Nick Riviera rather than to Dr. Julius Hibbert
for your mental health needs.
Brad Rogers
accuse and hide left is "crazy". got it.
Besides Dr Nick makes some good points sometimes, where that Julius guy just
laughs, I dont like that.
"Homer J Simpson" <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:mXluf.36936$OU5.31393@clgrps13...
Randall Arnold
so tight for intranets IMO. I should at least have the option to open up
capabilities if I'm writing for a secure environment. But MS has chosen to
lock it down across the board, out of the box, and then we must jump through
numerous hoops to get our intranet apps semi-functional. THAT is paranoia.
And I'm still trying to find all the hoops, much less figure out just where
else Microsoft's documentation is incomplete, incorrect or just flat
missing.
And I note you are also resorting to childish sarcasm and hyperbole once
again, Brad. Is that the only mode of dialog you know?
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:s2fuf.32579$zJ3.19013@trnddc04...
Randall Arnold
the absolute WORST leaders the US has ever suffered.
As for Microsoft, they do make decent products, but the support could sure
be better.
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dRluf.89$Uf7.9@trnddc01...
Randall Arnold
eh?
Some of us are centrists, Brad. Libertarians. Independents. Party
agnostic. Etc etc etc.
People aren't obligated to fit into your simplistic definitions. Many of us
abhor certain politicians for our own reasons, especially when said
politicians violate the very principles upon which this great nation was
founded and then impugn others as "traitors" for daring to question the
status quo. Oh, and by the way: the founders were radical liberals.
Wake up. Orwell was right.
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Y9ouf.16285$yW1.2761@trnddc05...
Randall Arnold
asp.net/vb.net intranet app for the first time has been an exercise in
near-futility for me. Too many of the things I attempt to do are either too
difficult or actually impossible, and why? Because the *security model* is
what seems to assume .NET means intranet-- at leats if the solution is
deployed on a web page.
IMO, mush more thought should have been placed into this situation. I
should be able to tell the IDE (in this case, Visual Web Developer) that my
app is 100% intranet and see that suddenly much more flexibility and
capability is accorded to me. Conversely, if some or all of my app exists
on the Internet, then I'm perfectly happy with many of the restrictions put
in place. I just don't want restrictions where they serve no valid purpose.
Randall Arnold
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfi...@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%23nUSSx2...@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Brad Rogers
honest DOES MATTER. Youre entitled to your own opinions but not your own
facts. If you dont agreee with me? I can respect that. But speaking of
namecalling, its the left that starts out with name calling, the right
discusses issues and facts. Monkey in the white house? comes from the
left. worst president ever? a childish and simplistic response to "lying
liars" like Al Franken, Michael Moore, Cindy whatzername and others caught
telling whoppers. Including "Bush lied" [fill in the blank] about the
war, about the economy, etc... Look in to those claims? what a suprise,
Bush never lied. does the left apologize? no, just more childish name
calling.
Traitors? I think there is a definition for the word, created long ago.
Its great we have a nation that can mock the sitting president during
wartime. But its a miserable failure to have major media outlets able to
slander and libel a sitting president during wartime, saying things to
encourage the enemy to "just keep trying" and defeat American Soldiers in
harms way.
Face it, the mainstream left only wants America to lose, the economy to
fail, any any progress made to be given back. The nation is a disaster, sez
the democrats... Come on, terrorists dont give up now? is the classic
opening dialog of most mainstream news shows. Bush is wiretapping
Americans? lets impeach him. Howard Dean was accused of being a traitor by
Mike Reagan a few weeks back, but why?? What did Reagan say?
I dont bait anyone, its all about facts. When a person cannot grasp
technical concepts then says what a failure the Bush admin is? probably
because the person ignored the facts? I make a parallel there, ignoring
technical facts, ignoring current events, inventing "doom" scenarios and
blaming Microsoft for being a success?
Its like Nokia, dont get me started on them and the political nonsense.
"Randall Arnold" <randall...@nokia.com> wrote in message
news:uuBw$UIEGH...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Randall Arnold
The left and right both lie. Politicos from both sides mistreat their
constituents to put it mildly. Clinton lied, and whether you are
intellectually honest enough to accept it or not, Bush lies too. I find him
to be singlehandedly the most dishonest president in my lifetime-- which is
saying something considering Johnson, Nixon and Clinton's records of
dishonor.
I see you have been brainwashed by the right into thinking it is
unacceptable to "criticize a president during wartime". That is utter
claptrap. If anything, that is when a president should be held MOST
accountable, and that includes criticism that you arbitrarily deride as
"mockery". Your comments about the left wanting "America to lose" are
delusional. An objective person would know better than to entertain such
useless hyperbole. people on the left are as human as you Brad-- they just
have differing opinions based on the same reality to which you are exposed.
Their filters work differently than your rightward ones. And though they
are as misguided as you, they (and you) are still thinking, feeling humans
and thus deserved of respect for that alone at the very least. Your wanton
demonizing is naive serves no valid purpose.
If you actually were "all about facts", you would be willing to face the
facts about Bush that easily contradict your brainwashing. Instead, your
talk is cheap. You want something of those you oppose that you are not
willing to provide yourself. Pure partisan drivel. You are as bad as those
about whom you complain, whether the subject be Bush, Microsoft or whomever.
Your defenses are admirable in their tenacity, but pathetic in their content
and motivation.
Wake up, Brad. Orwell was right.
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0nzuf.19944$z45.10294@trnddc02...
Randall Arnold
any of his facts wrong. While I often disagree with his approach, he's done
his homework. Your disagreement with the facts presented doesn't obviate
them.
But enough useless political effluvium, and back to the abject Microsoft
bashing. Anyone trying to explain reality to you is obviously wasting their
time.
Have a nice day.
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0nzuf.19944$z45.10294@trnddc02...
Brad Rogers
>
> The left and right both lie. Politicos from both sides mistreat their
> constituents to put it mildly. Clinton lied, and whether you are
> intellectually honest enough to accept it or not, Bush lies too.
You accuse me of not being "candid"? not being honest? But aside from me,
you have asserted Bush "might" lie? Or DOES lie? If you assert with no doubt
Bush lies? Then you are required to. PROVE IT! Others such as myself take
such accusations very seriously, and would ADMIT any such lies, if they
existed.
To then accuse me and other honest people of being dishonest because we
"wont admit" Bush told lies as president? Youre also adding all mainstream
Jewish and Christian religious leaders who exemplify honesty. To show how
extensive your claim of "Bush lied" reaches? It locks in anyone who claims
to be honest being duty-bound to admit the truth, so anyone who partakes of
the lie is also dishonest. The 'religious right' and 'Christian
conservatives' typical of Pat Robertson? Are not openly, publicly calling
for Bush to apologize for being a liar. Why not? Maybe the truth is Bush and
VP Cheney have not lied? Now I really don't follow news stories or the
latest books. On 911, my opinion was that military action was needed, Bush
led the military and now in 2005/6 we have the leftist media trying to tell
me that they want to revise and extend their remarks from around 2001? And
the start of the war in 2003?? No way, I followed the war then because it
was important. What the left is saying today is not what happened a couple
years ago.
I find him
> to be singlehandedly the most dishonest president in my lifetime-- which
is
> saying something considering Johnson, Nixon and Clinton's records of
> dishonor.
Johnson was a good "president" who would have went to war with Iraq. Kennedy
was the crook, protected by the leftist media, whom Clinton idolized. Nixon,
now that the swifties exposed Kerry and the left of lying about Vietnam? I
also believe the left has lied about Nixon with empty accusations.
a.. > I see you have been brainwashed by the right into thinking it is
> unacceptable to "criticize a president during wartime". That is utter
> claptrap. If anything, that is when a president should be held MOST
> accountable, and that includes criticism that you arbitrarily deride as
> "mockery".
b..
c.. Brainwashed? You wish. I didn't say criticize, did I? Without even
looking, I probably wrote slandered or libeled the president, which isnt the
same. Criticism helps find solutions and its my belief that criticizing the
president, or Microsoft brings about realization which leads to progress.
d..
e..
f.. Your comments about the left wanting "America to lose" are
> delusional. An objective person would know better than to entertain such
> useless hyperbole.
g..
h.. Don't say its useless hyperbole, because it's the absolute truth. Ive
watched parts of Secy of defense Rumsfeld make a speech, then hours later
hear nbc report on what he said? They misquote him. Then I noticed
something, the leftist media interviews democrats. They then accuse
republicans and get only them saying "Im innocent" then the reporter
finishes by paraphrasing what the republican said, twisting it to imply
guilt. They do this with everyone, interview the left, take a snippet of the
right then add accusations and innuendo. Very clever method to brainwash
people into hating Bush.
That's kind of advanced analysis, I evaluate code in detail and am careful
not to. ASSUME ANYTHING?!? So I apply similar standards.
a..
b.. people on the left are as human as you Brad-- they just
> have differing opinions based on the same reality to which you are
exposed.
> Their filters work differently than your rightward ones. And though they
> are as misguided as you, they (and you) are still thinking, feeling
humans
> and thus deserved of respect for that alone at the very least. Your
wanton
> demonizing is naive serves no valid purpose.
c..
d..
e.. What demonizing? This is a perfect example, I have never called the
person names. I reserve the right to disagree with what a person SAYS?? But
do not aspersionalize the person themselves. The left typically makes horrid
and groundless accusations like Bush lied about the war, and when people say
there was no lie, prove it? The response is: oh, we cant disagree or we are
called traitors, you idiots on the right, youre insane, youre stupid, youre
cavemen, youre monkeys.
f..
g..
>
> If you actually were "all about facts", you would be willing to face the
> facts about Bush that easily contradict your brainwashing. Instead, your
> talk is cheap.
h..
i..
j.. Yes, I want to know if Bush lied so I can point it out to everyone.
When I find Bush hasn't lied?? I point out people like Franken, Moore, Corn
and others have the burden to apologize. Franken was ripped apart by
conservatives and exposed as a liar, it was on foxnews (the only news outlet
that lets conservatives speak) and Frankens errors were made public, I don't
know them maybe Rush Limbaugh or other famous people do. Moore? He isnt in
the news as much after being called a fraud and liar by Dick Morris, former
Clinton advisor?? Former democrat??
a.. You want something of those you oppose that you are not
> willing to provide yourself. Pure partisan drivel. You are as bad as
those
b..
c.. Im not sure who you've spoken to in the past, but I wont waste time on
'drivel' or 'bologna'. I have respect for Bush who led the military into war
to protect the nation, and what does the left say?? We are losing, its
another Vietnam, it's a quagmire, we cant win, everything that's negative?
That's what the left puts in the news. I hear soldiers who complain that
what happens in Iraq is progress, but the news only shows or makes up
negative things?? That's reality, soldiers there who are saying NO!! the
networks are lying, they have some agenda. I point that out without
mentioning the soldiers and you essentially call me a liar.
d..
e.. The left talks about how many soldiers are killed in Iraq, as if when
they get to some number they can start impeachment proceedings, they
disrespect the soldiers and their deaths and that upsets me and every
rational person with friends and family in the military. The economy gets
better? Some democrat goes on tv and says the economy is the worst its ever
been, its just like 1929.
f..
g.. So who should seek intellectual honesty? Randall?? I think you and the
mainstream left who try to find errors where none exist.
h..
i..
> about whom you complain, whether the subject be Bush, Microsoft or
whomever.
> Your defenses are admirable in their tenacity, but pathetic in their
content
> and motivation.
j..
k..
l.. Pathetic?? Being honest and defending the truth is pathetic to you?
Defending America is pathetic to you? Wanting freedom and democracy in the
middle east and making the world safer is pathetic to you? Randall you
should be honest and just admit republicans have better ideas and run the
nation and economy better. All the harping on lies or failures? Are just a
pathetic attempt to tell the American voting public: "we democrats don't
have ideas. But vote for us because the nation is so messed up and Bush
lied"
m..
n.. Oh everyone lies?? No Randall not everyone lies. Some of us have
standards and find lying morally reprehensible. Bush has not lied in office.
Be honest and admit that.
o..
p.. Can you point to anything the left media does or says about the nation
that is positive? Hopeful? Inspiring? NO!! NEVER! Its always doom and gloom.
Randall Arnold
your ill-formed and poorly-thought replies.
As for Bush lying, it's been adequately proven. As a sheep in the
brainwashed right, you simply choose not to accept it. Partisan sheep like
you, ironically, believe that all contradictions of their heroes are purely
partisan-based and that none have any merit. This is improbable and
illogical. But that's ok, Brad: the sheep on the left wouldn't accept that
Clinton lied, either.
Just keep your blinders on, though, and press on with the excuse-mongering.
God forbid you or any other ignorant extremist, left or right, wake up.
Randall Arnold
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lnBuf.20007$z45.13066@trnddc02...
Brad Rogers
Im not sure what or who youre replying to there, my response was well formed
and intellectual. Bush's lying has been contested but still never proven,
its you in the brainwashed left that believes it without any proof.
I challenge you to also claim the mainstream Jewish and Christian leaders
worldwide are equally as lying??
Yikes, dont want to touch that one, do you? When it comes to proof? Then
its not worth your erudite time, but I say again, I checked the claims of
Bush lying, I checked the Rathergate forged papers, I checked the claims
against Cheney. Interesting thing Randall, when people in the media or
anyone are lying? they have similar patterns and react in similar ways when
exposed.
The word "lie" and "liar" have defined meanings. The left being caught
falsely accusing Bush, now has the best defense of "well I just dont feel as
romantic as I used to because Bush doesnt give me confidence. When Bush
says the nation is doing better? well Im not, so he lied".
Or if the topic is on yellowcake/Africa? Joe Wilson was caught lying saying
VP Cheney sent him to Africa, do you care about that?? no.
Clinton lied under oath, he admits it. In the day (1990s) the leftist media
was spinning that "lying is a first amendment right to free speech". But
now with Bush? he didnt even lie, yet your side claims he did and the mere
accusation alone is good enough? Democrats are spiraling out of control,
further into confusion, all they have is accusation. No substance on
issues. No one has come forward with proof of Bush lies, and the left is
tired of talking about it, its just an accepted fact Bush lied. That kind
of demented, twisted gapingly flawed logic causes other failures in logic.
What if Bush wrote software and you were the SQA person? Oh, its all full
of lies, Bush lied in the software. But Randall, it runs, where are the
bugs? oh they are in there, trust me. where? oh, youre just brainwashed
into believing Bush. Show me a bug? I dont have to. you have to prove it
doesnt have bugs.
My email can be easily formed, youre most welcome to contact me and correct
me. Im okay with others being democrats, Ive got friends on the left. But
Im not okay with being called dishonest or unable to distinguish reality
from some extremist agenda.
I dont even care that much about politics and dont follow every issue, but
the Bush lied thing is something that bothered me, Im certain there were no
lies and no bugs in Bushes software.
"Randall Arnold" <randall.no...@nokia.com.> wrote in message
news:elWJOpKE...@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Mark
somewhere more relevant please?
Pieter
liek to have to work in another language.
But really: did you try alreaddy the Visual Studio 2005.NET? It's really
terrible! A missed oppurtunity, and a shame!!
"Brad Rogers" <bradz12...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:KgVsf.126$MV3.91@trnddc05...
> Full of terrible bugs? May I ask if you do software design?
>
> You referred to Microsoft or their product developers as "those idiots" ?
> Are you just trying to pitch some open source product after saying you
> know
> what its like to use Visual Studio and its so terrible, etc?
>
> I could use any IDE on the market. Ive checked out many of them but found
> Microsoft to be the best, period. Best product, best support, in other
> words, the best. So thats what I use.
>
> Open source is fine for hobbyists or whatever. But methinks your bashing
> of
> Microsoft was done for things from around 10 years ago and the bashing
> lacks
> substantiation. If people want an open source product, they can find
> them.
> Advertising here by claiming Visual Studio is bad? In fact, which open
> source are you guys plugging?
>
> Ill check it and see if it can withstand the same scrutiny.
>
>
> "Pieter" <pieter...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23sF$elFDGH...@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> But face it Brad: Visual Studio .NET 2005 shipped to early, and is full
>> of
>> terrible bugs, half-featered controls, etc...
>
>
Pieter
> I like to give credit where its due, there is a lot that I dont know about
> in politics, but do know when to trust a good leader (Bush).
Now it's all clear to me why you are convinced that Visual Studio .NET 2005
is a great product :-D
Paul Clement
¤
¤ "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressA...@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
¤ news:s2u5r113gp19gkvfb...@4ax.com...
¤
¤ > Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help.
¤ > ;-)
¤
¤ Every time I fire up the environment it asks me to register, again,
¤ promising benefits. If I do register - again - I get yet another thank you
¤ email which points me to a webpage which seems to be totally irrelevant to
¤ VB .Net but I cannot get any of the promised benefits. And so it goes.
I wasn't able to reproduce this problem. Did you enter the registration ID (in VB 2005 Express)
provided during registration of the product?
Any chance you had a beta version of the product installed at some point?
Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)
Paul Clement
¤
¤ "Paul Clement" <UseAdddressA...@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
¤ news:s2u5r113gp19gkvfb...@4ax.com...
¤
¤ > Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help.
¤ > ;-)
¤
¤ I downloaded "Microsoft Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition - Build a Program
¤ Now!.pdf"
¤
¤ Throughout this book there are many links to websites with more
¤ information - except they aren't links and you can't click on them. So OK,
¤ I'll cut and paste the link text into the browser - except the whole book
¤ has been created in some perverse version of Unicode and you can't cut and
¤ paste it. And the same applies to the code samples in the book. Come on, who
¤ thought this was a good idea? What was the point?
¤
¤ YAB (Yet Another Bug)
Don't know anything about this eBook - it's not included with Visual Basic 2005 Express.
Brad Rogers
there is a scroll kind of box on the right side, text is blanked out
depending on some random thing, scroll up/down to try and get text back
I had sample code trying to load, it said it must convert the file to
something to use on VS2005 so I click yes, it does something then says
error, cant open file and my VS2003 cant open it either
So there were some problems, but first I suspect operator error. Im hoping
to have time to really drive VS2005 around the block a few times, meanwhile
Im SURE that all you smart folks who find any bugs or issues are writing
them up with details on how to reproduce the problem and sending them to the
bug report email, right??
Its one thing to expect a "hello world" program to run correct the first
time, thats only what, a few thousand lines of ASM code?
But a massive enterprise like VS2005, who expects it to be bug free the
first time???? Its so big if it was spread out it would stretch from New
York to Los Angeles, thats VERY big. Its not going to be bug free. Who
expects their code that took 2 weeks to develop to be bug free?
Its in Beta form because... help me out here...
"Pieter" <pieter...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23m4ksuR...@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Brad Rogers
Visual Studio programmer?
"Mark" <m...@ark.com> wrote in message
news:OQX4zwLE...@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
Homer J Simpson
> I wasn't able to reproduce this problem. Did you enter the registration ID
> (in VB 2005 Express)
> provided during registration of the product?
>
> Any chance you had a beta version of the product installed at some point?
I ran the purge software to remove all betas. I do still have the VBNet 2003
Standard installed.
However I did finally get the promised benefits. Still, I found the support
to be less than well implemented. I still am not sure about the product
itself.
Homer J Simpson
It's a free download. The free eBook "Microsoft Visual Web Developer 2005
Express Edition - Build a Web Site Now!" has the same problem - ironically.
IIRC the C# book was OK.
Pieter
> Yes I have VS2005 beta2 and notice the text on the main page has a
> problem,
> Its in Beta form because... help me out here...
Just for your info:
- I used the Beta 1 (more than one year ago) and it wasn't too bad
- Beta 2 was worse
- the Release is almost as bad as the Beta 2: you can't make a normal
application (a bit more than the Hello World) without having problems with
the Visual Studio...
It's jsut not normal that a program that has been hyped a lot, has been in
Beta for more than a year, is still such a pain in the ass. I never had any
problems with VS.NET 2003, but 2005 daily...
Homer J Simpson
> Just for your info:
> - I used the Beta 1 (more than one year ago) and it wasn't too bad
> - Beta 2 was worse
> - the Release is almost as bad as the Beta 2: you can't make a normal
> application (a bit more than the Hello World) without having problems with
> the Visual Studio...
>
> It's jsut not normal that a program that has been hyped a lot, has been in
> Beta for more than a year, is still such a pain in the ass. I never had
> any problems with VS.NET 2003, but 2005 daily...
I do note that the 2005 seems to be more than a little different from the
2005.
Timmah
fibs and, more often, - put some wonderfully crafted, deliberately
misleading, spin on things.
Since you asked for an example, here's one that springs to mind:
Bush:
"The vast majority of my tax cuts will go to the bottom end of the
spectrum"
Analysis:
42.6% went to the top 1% and over 60% to the top 12.6%.
I don't see how that isn't a lie - or does it all boil down to your
definition of majority? Anyway, if you want more, may I suggest:
http://www.bushlies.net/pages/10/index.htm
- as a source for more lies for you to debunk.
http://www.bushlies.com/
- as a late Christmas present.
And
http://www.uspoliticsonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4
as a good place as any to continue the rants.