[uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, like my mum
Thom Shannon
change the lives of millions of ordinary internet users, that's why
we're all here!
My friend just asked me an interesting question, is Microformats the
right name for it? And I said yeah, that's what they are, small formats,
standards. But thinking about it, it doesn't really describe what it
does for a normal person. They don't know what a format means in this
context, and exporting a long list of events out of some search results
isn't necessarily even all that micro.
Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user
facing site showing what you can do with these things. Obviously it will
still be the Microformat movement, but we could develop something that
is more like a specific product fitting the requirements of a certain
market. I'm imagining it would mainly focus on hCard and hResume,
possibly also geo and hReview, things that are useful to the same sort
of people daily.
Comments?
(I don't mean to ignore all the other cool things MF can do, but I think
they are all solutions to different problems.)
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Charles Iliya Krempeaux
On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon <th...@ts0.com> wrote:
[...]
> Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user
> facing site showing what you can do with these things.
We could call it: "Intelligent Web Pages" or "Smart Web Pages"
Web pages that are "intelligent enough" or "smart enough" to "do stuff" :-)
--
Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc. <http://ChangeLog.ca/>
All the Vlogging News on One Page
http://vlograzor.com/
Alex Faaborg
user facing name. Similar to how RSS is exposed in Firefox to the
user as "Web Feeds" and microsummaries are exposed to the user as
"Live Bookmarks," microformat detection in Firefox 3 is going to need
a name. What does everyone think it should be called?
-Alex
Thom Shannon
A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP, maybe we
could look to the way that was marketed and some of the UI stuff it did
was really good.
IntelliTags
Infolets
Infobits
Open Smart Tags? ;-)
Charles Iliya Krempeaux wrote:
> Hello Thom,
>
> On 6/27/07, Thom Shannon <th...@ts0.com> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Just an idea, but maybe we could have a secondary name, and an end user
>> facing site showing what you can do with these things.
>
> We could call it: "Intelligent Web Pages" or "Smart Web Pages"
>
> Web pages that are "intelligent enough" or "smart enough" to "do
> stuff" :-)
>
>
Paul Wilkins
>I definitely agree that the microformats community should consider a user
>facing name. Similar to how RSS is exposed in Firefox to the user as "Web
>Feeds" and microsummaries are exposed to the user as "Live Bookmarks,"
>microformat detection in Firefox 3 is going to need a name. What does
>everyone think it should be called?
To take an idea from Charles, I think that IntelliSmart is a good
description of them.
IntelliSmart Web Pages.
--
Paul Wilkins
Alex Faaborg
Tags or IntelliSense given the massive public outcry Microsoft
received when they considered including the feature in IE6. There
are obviously some very important distinctions between the two
systems, (microformats are open and extensible, and web site creators
place microformats in their pages instead of the browser injecting
them). But these distinctions may be subtle enough to cause some
initial confusion if the user facing name is similar.
-Alex
Paul Wilkins
> I'm a little wary of associating microformats too closely with Smart Tags
> or IntelliSense given the massive public outcry Microsoft received when
> they considered including the feature in IE6. There are obviously some
> very important distinctions between the two systems, (microformats are
> open and extensible, and web site creators place microformats in their
> pages instead of the browser injecting them). But these distinctions may
> be subtle enough to cause some initial confusion if the user facing name
> is similar.
While reflecting on this over lunch I came to similar conclusions.
Perhaps we should use terms that we already have and know, and call the
pages Semantically Rich, or something.
--
Paul Wilkins
Joe Andrieu
> On Jun 27, 2007, at 4:52 PM, Thom Shannon wrote:
> > Yeah, exactly that kind of thing.
> >
> > A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP,
> > maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some
> of the UI
> > stuff it did was really good.
> >
> > IntelliTags
> > Infolets
> > Infobits
> > Open Smart Tags? ;-)
> >
> Tags or IntelliSense given the massive public outcry Microsoft
> received when they considered including the feature in IE6. There
> are obviously some very important distinctions between the two
> systems, (microformats are open and extensible, and web site
> creators
> place microformats in their pages instead of the browser injecting
> them). But these distinctions may be subtle enough to cause some
> initial confusion if the user facing name is similar.
I would suggest that uF aren't about the formating or the tagging. It's about the data.
Perhaps SmartData.
I'm not sure I like that, but it's sort of what uF does for you. Dumb data can't be heard/seen. Dumb data stuck in HTML is almost
useless for augmenting the browsing experience or assimilating into the semantic web.
SmartData is instantly available to apps in a way they can actually use. SmartData in HTML allows standard javascript and browser
plug-ins to do smart things.
For me, the question is what does the non-developer end-user perceive when they see the "SmartData" icon? How does that relate to
their world? It isn't about the formatting or the HTML tags... Those are things that end-users don't really care about or even
conceptuallize.
When Grandma visits MovieFone.com and it has a "SmartData" icon, I think maybe it will eventually make sense that clicking on the
icon lets her add that movie to her Outlook calendar...
Note also that I would say SmartData is any POSH that is understood by the client app in a smart way. uF are the broadest library of
POSH, but certainly not the only option.
SmartText might also work.
$0.02 worth of product branding.
-j
--
Joe Andrieu
SwitchBook Software
http://www.switchbook.com
j...@switchbook.com
+1 (805) 705-8651
Tara Hunt
how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.
I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
The one that could use a bit of massaging is XFN. FOAF, which is not a
nice spec, had a more generically used acronym.
As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
talking to developers and advanced content producers.
Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits
out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.
It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
technology and magic?
T
Tara Hunt
really), they talk about:
addresses
photos
blog posts (now)
videos
events
reviews
resumes
etc.
SmartData is nice for us, but all of you are still thinking like
developers ('cause, duh, you ARE developers!).
T
On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt <ta...@citizenagency.com> wrote:
> Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
> how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.
>
> I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
> like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
> these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
> marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
>
> The one that could use a bit of massaging is XFN. FOAF, which is not a
> nice spec, had a more generically used acronym.
>
> As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
> the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
> was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
> talking to developers and advanced content producers.
>
> Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
> non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits
> out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
> ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.
>
> It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
> technology and magic?
>
> T
>
--
tara 'miss rogue' hunt
co-founder & CMO
Citizen Agency (www.citizenagency.com)
blog: www.horsepigcow.com
phone: 415-694-1951
fax: 415-727-5335
Paul Wilkins
> Personally, I'd love it all to be invisible and have more tools for
> non-expert content producers to input plain text into stuff that spits
> out properly marked up pages and other tools (like browsers and plug
> ins and sites) that consume these well-marked up pages properly.
This means that the tools people use to create their web pages will need to
provide a mechanism for them to add microformat data to their content,
without necessarily having to dig into the code.
So, first steps.
Select an area of text to be used as an hCard and click an hCard button
When an hCard area of text is defined, buttons become available to define
different sections
Select text to be the persons name and click a name button
- if the name appears to be parsable as a fn, ask if the given name is one
of a series of example formats
- if the name isn't a correct format, let them pick and choose which parts
are what
Select phone number and click a phone number button
- if an appropriate type is not included with the selected phone number, but
one is nearby, ask if that should be included as the type
> It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
> technology and magic?
it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher - usability for
the masses.
--
Paul Wilkins
Benjamin West
> how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.
>
> It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
> technology and magic?
>
> T
I agree. I'm not sure why an end user would even want know. Most people just
want to find that phone number, call their friend, and get on with their life,
or whatever it is they were doing.
Miles Fidelman
> From: "Tara Hunt" <ta...@citizenagency.com>
>> It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
>> technology and magic?
>
> it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher -
> usability for the masses.
>
indistinguishable from magic."
Personally, I prefer the following, which I saw in someone's sig line
recently: "if it's distinguishable from magic, it isn't sufficiently
advanced."
Alex Faaborg
> perceive when they see the "SmartData" icon? How does that relate
> to their world? It isn't about the formatting or the HTML tags...
> Those are things that end-users don't really care about or even
> conceptuallize.
In case anyone is curious what is going on with microformat UI design
for Firefox 3, we are considering presenting microformatted content
to the user with an icon in the location bar, similar to RSS (and
possibly RSS and microformats will be grouped into a more generic
"send data to application" icon, which was brought up in a different
thread on microformats-discuss):
http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070204-detectionUI/
locationBarMenu.jpg_large.jpg
Additionally, when the user hovers the mouse over an area of the page
that contains microformatted content, we will change the cursor to
display the associated application (or a generic icon if no default
has been selected):
http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070426-detectionUI2/
cursorChange.jpg
The mouse cursor change will also hopefully apply to file types and
protocols (mailto:, webcal:, etc.)
> I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
> like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
> these are pretty descriptive.
In our designs we avoid showing the user the microformat name, and
focus on the associated application. Instead of seeing "geo" or
"adr" the user will only see "Google Earth" (or a generic picture of
a globe if they haven't chosen an application yet, probably on
microformat green).
Due to privacy concerns the browser can't expose the user's default
applications to Web sites, so I think Web developers should be
encouraged to design based on actions, not data. A green button that
says "Send to Calendar" is considerably more useable than a green
button that says "hCal" (actually these are often red for some
reason, http://microformats.org/wiki/icons). Also, I personally
think Web designers should be encouraged to use images instead of
acronyms. In addition to being more descriptive, they localize
better. Here are some I've been showing in various talks:
http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20061213-fundamentalTypes/
fundamentalTypesStatic.jpg_large.jpg
-Alex
Michael MD
>> > A lot of the power of MF reminds me of Smart Tags in Office XP,
>> > maybe we could look to the way that was marketed and some
>> of the UI
>> > stuff it did was really good.
I haven't seen the Smart Tags stuff (where do I find it?)... could it be
somehow adapted for use with microformats?
... or would a tool to convert between them be useful?
Andy Mabbett
<mfid...@meetinghouse.net> writes
>Paul Wilkins wrote:
>> From: "Tara Hunt" <ta...@citizenagency.com>
>>> It should look like magic. What's that Arthur C. Clarke quote about
>>> technology and magic?
>>
>> it's not rocket science that we're doing here, it's tougher -
>>usability for the masses.
>>
>The Clark quote is "any sufficiently advanced technology is
>indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)
>Personally, I prefer the following, which I saw in someone's sig line
>recently: "if it's distinguishable from magic, it isn't sufficiently
>advanced."
'In the first non-Asimov Foundation Novel, the emperor declares,
"If technology is distinguishable from magic, it is
insufficiently advanced." This is a paraphrase of Gehm's
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law, "Any technology distinguishable
from magic is insufficiently advanced." '
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke's_three_laws>
hQuote anyone? ;-)
--
Andy Mabbett
Toby A Inkster
> The Clark quote is "any sufficiently advanced technology is
> indistinguishable from magic."
>
> Personally, I prefer the following, which I saw in someone's sig line
> recently: "if it's distinguishable from magic, it isn't sufficiently
> advanced."
Corollary: any sufficiently advanced magic is distinguishable from
technology.
--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 7 days, 11:54.]
Long-Awaited Zeldman Article
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/27/zeldman-in-time/
Pelle W
>> Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
>> how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.
>>
>> I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
>> like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
>> these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
>> marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
because it tells us in what way the solution works but for my mum it
would tell nothing. My mom knows however what an address is and what a
calendar is and because of that it's the microformats in itself that
should be given common names like "web feeds" for RSS. I don't know but
have XML been given a humane name yet? Because XML is to RSS what
Microformats is to hCard.
If Microformats should be given a more humane name then that would be
something about semantics. Semanticdata perhaps - but it wouldn't make
anyone happier I think because the only ones who would be interested
would be those who already knows what Microformats is.
>> As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
>> the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
>> was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
>> talking to developers and advanced content producers.
I agree wth Tara here also.
Frances Berriman
> On 6/27/07, Tara Hunt <ta...@citizenagency.com> wrote:
> >> Although I heart the idea of language for non-experts, I'm wondering
> >> how public facing Microformats, as a general term, is.
> >>
> >> I've thought about this before...I can see the specific microformats,
> >> like hCard and hCal and hReview being public facing...and, in reality,
> >> these are pretty descriptive. Maybe they just need some sort of iconic
> >> marker (like RSS has)...which I think has been attempted before.
> I agree with Tara here. Microformats is interesting for developers
> because it tells us in what way the solution works but for my mum it
> would tell nothing. My mom knows however what an address is and what a
> calendar is and because of that it's the microformats in itself that
> should be given common names like "web feeds" for RSS. I don't know but
> have XML been given a humane name yet? Because XML is to RSS what
> Microformats is to hCard.
I concur on this line of thinking. Microformats are the technological
name - my mum should never have to come across the term any more than
she should have to come across the term XML. I think Operator does a
good job of hiding the term in that it simply shows what you can
actually do with data in the page (add this to my google calendar
etc.). Therefore, uFs don't need a user-facing name - their
applications do.
> If Microformats should be given a more humane name then that would be
> something about semantics. Semanticdata perhaps - but it wouldn't make
> anyone happier I think because the only ones who would be interested
> would be those who already knows what Microformats is.
> >> As far as talking about Microformats under one banner, I don't know if
> >> the distinction really needs to be made. i think that may be what POSH
> >> was trying to say: use plain old semantic html...but even that is
> >> talking to developers and advanced content producers.
I've said it before, but I don't think there's any need to reiterate
what semantic HTML for is via *another* name, for developers. POSH is
bad enough.
--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
Andy Mabbett
Faaborg <faa...@mozilla.com> writes
>microformat UI design for Firefox 3
>when the user hovers the mouse over an area of the page that contains
>microformatted content, we will change the cursor to display the
>associated application (or a generic icon if no default has been
>selected):
>
>http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20070426-detectionUI2/
>cursorChange.jpg
>
>The mouse cursor change will also hopefully apply to file types and
>protocols (mailto:, webcal:, etc.)
Firstly, your URLs aren't wrapping properly, in my mail client., Others'
do. Is there anything you can do to fix that, or perhaps you could also
use TinyURL or similar?
I hope that that behaviour will be user-configurable, so that it can be
switched off if desired (I do think it should be on by default, to raise
awareness).
>In our designs we avoid showing the user the microformat name, and
>focus on the associated application. Instead of seeing "geo" or "adr"
>the user will only see "Google Earth" (or a generic picture of a globe
>if they haven't chosen an application yet, probably on microformat
>green).
That default colour should change, if there's a green/ yellow/ blue
background (for reasons of contrast) or a red background (red-green
colour blindness is the most common type).
>Due to privacy concerns the browser can't expose the user's default
>applications to Web sites, so I think Web developers should be
>encouraged to design based on actions, not data. A green button that
>says "Send to Calendar" is considerably more useable than a green
>button that says "hCal" (actually these are often red for some reason,
>http://microformats.org/wiki/icons).
Be aware also that WCAG and other accessibility guidelines speak against
using colour alone to convey information.
>Also, I personally think Web designers should be encouraged to use
>images instead of acronyms.
Amen!
>In addition to being more descriptive, they localize better. Here are
>some I've been showing in various talks:
>
>http://people.mozilla.com/~faaborg/files/20061213-fundamentalTypes/
>fundamentalTypesStatic.jpg_large.jpg
Those look good, but I'd like to see them at the size at which they will
be used.
The "contact" icon is good for a person, but what of the subject is a
group, organisation, or venue? (differentiated by "fn org" instead of
"fn")? A different icon should be used.
--
Andy Mabbett
Alex Faaborg
> applications do.
Right, we need a general user facing way of describing microformat
detection, in order to describe the various applications (like Web
browsers, feed readers and extensions like Operator) that let the
user take actions on microformatted content. For instance, this
description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 include
support for offline Web applications, private browsing, blocking
malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat detection]__"
...data detection?
...semantic browsing?
...data browsing?
...semantic data detection?
...semantic data browsing?
...semantic data navigating?
If Operator and Firefox 3 are in a category of uF enabled
applications, what should that category of applications be called?
Or another way of putting it:
Feed Readers :: RSS
______ :: microformats
-Alex
David Janes
> Right, we need a general user facing way of describing microformat
> detection, in order to describe the various applications (like Web
> browsers, feed readers and extensions like Operator) that let the
> user take actions on microformatted content. For instance, this
> description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3 include
> support for offline Web applications, private browsing, blocking
> malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat detection]__"
>
> ...data detection?
> ...semantic browsing?
> ...data browsing?
> ...semantic data detection?
> ...semantic data browsing?
> ...semantic data navigating?
>
> If Operator and Firefox 3 are in a category of uF enabled
> applications, what should that category of applications be called?
> Or another way of putting it:
>
> Feed Readers :: RSS
> ______ :: microformats
>
Live Data [1]? Already used...
Wired Web
Wire Page?
Dynamic Pages?
Dynamic Data?
Smart Page (not bad, riffing off Smart Tags)
Applications add "Reader" (like Feed Reader) or "Processor" (like Word
Processor) or "Importer" (like address book, and actually describes
what is happening) or "Appliance"
Hmmm ... Smart Page Reader ...
Regards, etc...
[1] http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22live+data%22+microformats&btnG=Search
--
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
Frances Berriman
Personally, Smart Page and Reader bothers me the least.
How did the term "Feed Reader" turn up? As is the microformats
principle, perhaps we should see what turns up naturally in the wild
as the way people describe such pages and go with that as a guide.
--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
Pelle W
>> Therefore, uFs don't need a user-facing name - their
>> applications do.
> applications, what should that category of applications be called? Or
> another way of putting it:
>
> Feed Readers :: RSS
> ______ :: microformats
microformats" as much as you can say "this reads XML".
What you can say is that "this reads RSS" or "this reads XHTML" or "this
reads some other cool XML-namespace" and the same is true for
microformats - you can say that "this reads hCards", that "this reads
hCalendars" etc.
NetNewsWire 3 reads hCards and hCalendars for example.
But I kind of understand you because Firefox 3 and Operator are
supposed to read with plugins and as such can read anything there's a
plugin for, but it shouldn't replicate "feed readers" but rather
something above "feed readers" which perhaps also includes them.
Wouldn't "metadata-enabled browser" be one possible description? All
microformats that someones mum would be interested in would contain some
kind of metadata - wouldn't it? Another description could be
"semantically enabled browsing". Both those description should include
RSS and other similar XML-namespaces containing metadata/semantics
relevant to the browser.
/ Pelle
Thom Shannon
functions under a banner that isn't confused by the other things
microformats do. The idea of pulling these bits of data out of a page
and using them elsewhere is one of many features of microformats and
something that people would use every day. A logo that could sit next to
the feed icon would be perfect, and a simple name so everyone
understands what they are, and can promote them.
I want to be able to sell this to my clients, I want to show them this
cool thing supported by the next generation of browsers that they can
have in their websites too.
Thom Shannon
Montgomery, Mike
Microformats specifically geared towards the general web user ("like my
mum"). Specific names for each public-facing uF would be nice where the
user would recognize hCard content as a "Smart Name" or hCal as a "Smart
Date" but I don't think a new term that bundles all Microformats is
warranted.
If you create a new term that is just a "slick" name for Microformats,
you should be prepared to completely do away with the term
"Microformats". If a majority of people are calling it "Slick Name", I
don't see the need to use the term Microformats when talking among my
developer buddies. I'm just going to call it "Slick Name". Just my 2
cents...
-Mike
Andy Mabbett
Faaborg <faa...@mozilla.com> writes
>this description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3
>include support for offline Web applications, private browsing,
>blocking malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat
>detection]__"
>
>...data detection?
>...semantic browsing?
>...data browsing?
>...semantic data detection?
>...semantic data browsing?
>...semantic data navigating?
"data extraction"
Though it strikes me as odd that we expend efforts trying to raise
"brand awareness" for microformats, then start top discuss renaming
them...
We should think long and hard about whether that's a good idea.
--
Andy Mabbett
Frances Berriman
> In message <41F0355F-62DE-43C6...@mozilla.com>, Alex
> Faaborg <faa...@mozilla.com> writes
>
> >this description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3
> >include support for offline Web applications, private browsing,
> >blocking malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat
> >detection]__"
> >
> >...data detection?
> >...semantic browsing?
> >...data browsing?
> >...semantic data detection?
> >...semantic data browsing?
> >...semantic data navigating?
>
> "data extraction"
>
> Though it strikes me as odd that we expend efforts trying to raise
> "brand awareness" for microformats, then start top discuss renaming
> them...
>
> We should think long and hard about whether that's a good idea.
Agreed. I'd prefer the approach of seeing what people who aren't us
want to do with them and call them, first.
--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
Thom Shannon
use it. Design a logo that echoes the MF logo, maybe even base the name
on it?
Microform
Microtag
It will be a subset of the full range of microformat standards but
clearly part of the same thing.
Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In message <41F0355F-62DE-43C6...@mozilla.com>, Alex
> Faaborg <faa...@mozilla.com> writes
>
>> this description would finish the sentence "features of Firefox 3
>> include support for offline Web applications, private browsing,
>> blocking malware, and __[user facing way of saying microformat
>> detection]__"
>>
>> ...data detection?
>> ...semantic browsing?
>> ...data browsing?
>> ...semantic data detection?
>> ...semantic data browsing?
>> ...semantic data navigating?
>
> "data extraction"
>
> Though it strikes me as odd that we expend efforts trying to raise
> "brand awareness" for microformats, then start top discuss renaming
> them...
>
> We should think long and hard about whether that's a good idea.
>
Alex Faaborg
an interface-level name: Mozilla has had multiple inquiries from
reporters in the mainstream media who wanted to cover microformats in
stories about the future of the Web browser, but they then later
backed out because they felt the term "microformats" would only
appeal to developers, and not the average reader.
Also, from a user interface design perspective, we really shouldn't
expose implementation-level terminology to end users.
-Alex
Toby A Inkster
> Wouldn't "metadata-enabled browser" be one possible description?
Contact-aware browser;
Calendar-aware browser;
Geo-aware browser;
etc...
--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.12-12mdksmp, up 7 days, 15:49.]
Long-Awaited Zeldman Article
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2007/06/27/zeldman-in-time/
_______________________________________________
Thom Shannon
concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"
>> --Andy Mabbett
Frances Berriman
> Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
> concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
> possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
> them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"
I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
re-branded.
--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
Jon Tan
> [...] As is the microformats
> principle, perhaps we should see what turns up naturally in the wild
> as the way people describe such pages and go with that as a guide.
Maybe this is over simplistic but my mum understands "download".
That seems to me to be the most natural and ubiquitous term understood
in the wild by all people today.
The option for a person to download and add a specific event, set of
contact details etc. from a uF enabled page would seem to be an optimal
outcome. Fundamentally, users are downloading that data first, then
adding it to an application -- usually requiring an extra step to
confirm that action in a dialogue box.
Seeing the uF or downloads icon then a list of available uF "downloads"
to cherry pick from would also be easily understood and used.
All the best,
Jon Tan
Ben Ward
> I know this topic comes up a lot and we'd all like to see
> Microformats change the lives of millions of ordinary internet
> users, that's why we're all here!
>
> My friend just asked me an interesting question, is Microformats
> the right name for it?
Sorry, but this discussion seems absurd to me.
Microformats is a good name for developers. It encompasses a large
range of different, mostly discrete and often unrelated data formats.
It has nothing at all to do with user-facing exposure of that data.
No-one is ever (read: should ever) create a web browser with a ‘Get
Microformats’ button other than as a developer testing tool. But the
idea that we need some other name with ‘Super’, ‘Hyper’ and ‘Smart’
in the name is verging on the hilarious.
Here's what should happen:
Developers will use a microformat in their page to describe reviews,
addresses or calendar appointments. User agents will then expose them
as… reviews, addresses and calendar appointments.
I cannot for the life of me see why we are trying to abstract useful
functionality at a user-end with a nonsensical name like ‘Smart Data’
when ‘Address’, ‘Event’ and ‘Location’ have served the English
language very well so far.
Finally, an all-encompassing term for all microformats going to be
useless to end users. Apart from the aforementioned abstraction of
what the data really is and really should be used for, microformats
are so varied that a generic term will be meaningless. XOXO and Geo?
Branding them ‘Hyper Smart Data Enabled’ isn't going to help an end
user any more than ‘microformat’. Exposing functionality where useful
is. And that functionality doesn't need a µf.org endorsed name; the
functionality should be named as appropriate, not the data format.
To draw a parallel: We do not ‘consume HTML documents’, we ‘read web
pages’. Consumers of microformats will not ‘consume Smart Data’ they
will ‘add contacts to their address books’, ‘print address labels’,
‘find other employees of this organisation’ and ‘show a map of this
location’. I would strongly discourage any implementer from trying to
dress up simple functionality with a catch-all term. It will be
utterly confusing users with yet another hunk of IT jargon.
Thanks,
Ben
Pelle W
> On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon <th...@ts0.com> wrote:
>> Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
>> concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
>> possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
>> them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"
> I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
> creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
> rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
> re-branded.
emerge that describes the activity in a good way like photoshopping and
googling has emerged even though their creators didn't wan't them to
emerge...
/ Pelle
Frances Berriman
> Frances Berriman wrote:
> > [...] As is the microformats
> > principle, perhaps we should see what turns up naturally in the wild
> > as the way people describe such pages and go with that as a guide.
>
> Maybe this is over simplistic but my mum understands "download".
Agreed. My mother doesn't often use (or even understand) terms like
semantic or meta-data or even extraction. Download she gets. She
knows it means she's taking something from a webpage and putting it
somewhere else. Simple. How that's done she couldn't give a monkies
about and, frankly, should never HAVE to know.
> That seems to me to be the most natural and ubiquitous term understood
> in the wild by all people today.
>
> The option for a person to download and add a specific event, set of
> contact details etc. from a uF enabled page would seem to be an optimal
> outcome. Fundamentally, users are downloading that data first, then
> adding it to an application -- usually requiring an extra step to
> confirm that action in a dialogue box.
>
> Seeing the uF or downloads icon then a list of available uF "downloads"
> to cherry pick from would also be easily understood and used.
Agreed. And no "re-branding" or user safe naming had to be done. Why
invent problems that don't currently exist for users who want to
consume microformatted data?
Those who want to create pages with microformats and therefore your
"smart pages" are more-or-less two kinds of people - simple publishers
(like my dad and his blog, for example) or actual web developers like
ourselves.
The first kind of people don't want to (and shouldn't have to) touch
the mark-up so their publishing tools should be doing it for them and
the second kind ought to be able to cope with the term "microformats"
to describe what they are doing.
--
Frances Berriman
http://fberriman.com
Tim Hodson
> Pelle W wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't "metadata-enabled browser" be one possible description?
>
> Contact-aware browser;
> Calendar-aware browser;
> Geo-aware browser;
> etc...
>
Microformats are bits of human readable data tagged so that a machine
can do something with it. Tagging is already a common expression of a
way of labelling content. content being many things, microformats
being a way to tag many things.
So how about tag-aware?
Tim
---
http://informationtakesover.co.uk
Rickards, Julian (NDM)
specs for the Elemental Microformats such as XFN, VoteLinks, and
Rel-Nofollow with the Compound Microformats such as hCard, hCalendar and
hReview, it seems like the latter might be better suited under the
umbrella of "mini-formats".
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Ward
Microformats is a good name for developers. It encompasses a large range
of different, mostly discrete and often unrelated data formats.
It has nothing at all to do with user-facing exposure of that data.
_______________________________________________
Thom Shannon
microformats thing but dont want to call it that, journos are refusing
to talk about it because "the term 'microformats' would only appeal to
We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out of
pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And people
need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable Information".
"This information is reusable, click here to see how"
"Reuse this > Add to address book"
David Janes
> I would say that Microformat = XML and therefor you say that "this reads
> microformats" as much as you can say "this reads XML".
Well, microformats are one thing and XML is another so Microformat !=
XML. Or do you mean "Terminology-wise/linguistically can be used in
the same", in which case I ask "does anyone say 'this reads XML'" as a
_marketing_ term. We already have a perfectly good technical name for
microformats, i.e. "microformats".
On 6/28/07, Toby A Inkster <ma...@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:
> Contact-aware browser;
> Calendar-aware browser;
> Geo-aware browser;
> etc...
Because whatever term is invented, it will probably take 5 years to
get into people's heads. Having a pile of different terms won't make
this process any easier and will probably hinder/kill it.
On 6/28/07, Tim Hodson <hodso...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Microformats are bits of human readable data tagged so that a machine
> can do something with it. Tagging is already a common expression of a
> way of labelling content. content being many things, microformats
> being a way to tag many things.
>
> So how about tag-aware?
Because microformats are _not_ tags.
--
David Janes
Founder, BlogMatrix
http://www.blogmatrix.com
http://blogmatrix.blogmatrix.com
David Thompson
> I get your point, but as Alex pointed out people are interested in this
> microformats thing but dont want to call it that, journos are refusing
> to talk about it because "the term 'microformats' would only appeal to
> developers, and not the average reader"
As it should be: the "average reader" does not, and should not have to,
care about Microformats, any more than they care about whether the site
they're viewing is coded in HTML or Flash, or whether the image they're
looking at is a JPG, a GIF or a PNG. They just care about being able to
*do things with it*.
> We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out of
> pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And people
> need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable Information".
"The new version of our browser will let you pull contacts and events
out of web pages and into your address book and calendar."
What's wrong with that?
--
David Thompson
Ben Ward
> I get your point, but as Alex pointed out people are interested in
> this microformats thing but dont want to call it that, journos are
> refusing to talk about it because "the term 'microformats' would
> only appeal to developers, and not the average reader"
But it is impossible to have a meaningful or descriptive name that
catches all microformats, let alone to an ‘average reader’. I'm also
not sure which subset of journalists wish to write articles about the
data formats themselves, but whose audience would balk at a reference
to microformats.org.
Anyone writing for the average user would surely be writing in the
context of browser functionality (as and when it ships: namely
Firefox 3). And when referencing the functionality of those features,
it makes most sense to use the terms ‘address’, ‘location’, ‘map’,
‘event’, ‘appointment’, ‘contact’ or ‘business card’ and other such
words. That's all microformats are to end users. We provide a
standardised, digital form of those physical-world concepts. A
journalist could write ‘Firefox 3 allows you to interact with
business cards and events in web pages like never before, bridging
the gap between the pages you read and other applications’. That is
surely a gazillion times better than trying to encourage ‘Firefox 3
ships with support for Hyper Data, which allows web pages to…’. Such
a generic and meaningless term not only adds nothing, but distracts
from the real benefits of Microformat deployment (by which I mean all
the name suggestions in this thread, not just my facetious overuse of
the word ‘hyper’).
> We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted
> out of pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it.
> And people need to call it something. Maybe it should just be
> "Reusable Information".
For the people who will be putting the data in the pages — developers
— we have names. Yes, microformats and h* is all very techie, but
that's perfectly acceptable for developers.
End-users don't need to know anything at all about _how_ or _why_
their new browser functionality works, only that it's an awesome new
feature that's going to improve their life.
Who is the group in the middle that this wooly new terminology is
going to serve? I don't see it.
Andy Mabbett
writes
>Yeah, which is why I dont think we should throw away all that effort
>but use it. Design a logo that echoes the MF logo, maybe even base the
>name on it?
>
>Microform
>Microtag
Microcontent (which perhaps covers compound microformats, but not things
like "rel")?
--
Andy Mabbett
Pelle W
> On 6/28/07, Pelle W <mejll...@kodfabrik.se> wrote:
>> I would say that Microformat = XML and therefor you say that "this reads
>> microformats" as much as you can say "this reads XML".
> Well, microformats are one thing and XML is another so Microformat !=
> XML. Or do you mean "Terminology-wise/linguistically can be used in
> the same", in which case I ask "does anyone say 'this reads XML'" as a
> _marketing_ term. We already have a perfectly good technical name for
> microformats, i.e. "microformats".
means that it's what is described by those methods that should be named
and not the methods because no one but developers really care about them
and that's the main problem with giving Microformats a different name I
think - it doesn't do anything in itself and the things described by the
different standards is so "simple" and natural that it's hard to give
them any special name.
What differs a microformat address from a usual address on a webpage?
Well - the latter kan be read by computers but it's still the same
address so it's still just a simple address. It adds nothing other than
the possibility of the browser understanding and extracting it and it's
the same with many XML-standards such as RSS - it adds data which the
browser/computer can understand and extract.
If firefox needs a catchy phrase - then perhaps use "Increased ability
to extract data from webpages" or something - because it's just as basic
as that - no new names because a name is only useful for developers who
needs to distinguish between methods - but the user doesn't care about
the methods - they care about result!
/ Pelle
Thom Shannon
that are useful to someone who wants to reuse data from a webpage. hCa*
and maybe a couple of others.
Why does this need a user facing name? Well it's going to be a very long
time before microformats are truely ubiquitous, so websites may want to
announce their support for this functionality. A lot of people will want
plugins until their preferred browser catches up (I'm looking at IE) how
do they know what plugin to get to use the data in these pages?
"This site supports Reusable Data, get a Reusable Data add-on for your
web browser to save typing things out"
Andy Mabbett
<microf...@fatbusinessman.com> writes
>> We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out
>>of pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And
>>people need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable
>>Information".
>
>"The new version of our browser will let you pull contacts and events
>out of web pages and into your address book and calendar."
>
>What's wrong with that?
It doesn't tell people why it will work on some sites and not others; or
that there's a way they can change the pages they publish to make the
content available is such a way.
We *do* need some sort of label, to tell people that this is something
new.
--
Andy Mabbett
Thom Shannon
see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that just looks
the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something that understands
that specific "thing"
So whats the thing called, micro-what? or "Resuable Data" (with the MF
icon!)
Andy Mabbett wrote:
> In message <4683C072...@fatbusinessman.com>, David Thompson
> <microf...@fatbusinessman.com> writes
>
>>> We need a way to get across to people that content can be lifted out
>>> of pages and used in useful ways, when those pages support it. And
>>> people need to call it something. Maybe it should just be "Reusable
>>> Information".
>>
>> "The new version of our browser will let you pull contacts and events
>> out of web pages and into your address book and calendar."
>>
>> What's wrong with that?
>
> It doesn't tell people why it will work on some sites and not others;
> or that there's a way they can change the pages they publish to make
> the content available is such a way.
>
> We *do* need some sort of label, to tell people that this is something
> new.
>
Chris Casciano
On Jun 27, 2007, at 8:53 PM, Tara Hunt wrote:
> Oh and non-experts/non-developers don't talk about data (or content,
> really), they talk about:
>
> addresses
> photos
> blog posts (now)
> videos
> events
> reviews
> resumes
> etc.
>
> SmartData is nice for us, but all of you are still thinking like
> developers ('cause, duh, you ARE developers!).
>
> T
You're right, they don't talk about "data" they talk about objects,
and a wide variety of them at that.
They don't talk about CSS or Table-less design, or semantic markup,
or flashobject embeds
Microformats do a *lot* of different things, and they're going to do
more. I don't think we need a "pretty" outward facing name because
frankly there isn't one name that would represent all the things
being done, and I think most of the scenarios should be transparent
anyway
Have hAtom in the page? just lump in in with the existing feed
handling mechanism
Have contacts embedded in the page? Well then you'll want the user to
"Export Contacts"
Using XFN? "Check for shared friends?"
rel-tag? maybe save the tags behind the scenes when the page is
bookmarked!
We don't need to invent a new name just so we can present a web
surfer with a dialog that says "Do you want to save this
SuperUltraMarkup Event?"
That's just my dollar and a half
--
[ Chris Casciano ]
[ ch...@placenamehere.com ] [ http://placenamehere.com ]
Rickards, Julian (NDM)
microformats, will Thunderbird?
-----Original Message-----
From: Thom Shannon
yes, it's a "thing", it's different. FF3 can't just add any address you
see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that just looks
the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something that understands
that specific "thing"
_______________________________________________
Ben Ward
> yes, it's a "thing", it's different. FF3 can't just add any address
> you see to your address book, its a specific kind of address that
> just looks the same, and you need a browser or plugin or something
> that understands that specific "thing"
>
> So whats the thing called, micro-what? or "Resuable Data" (with the
> MF icon!)
I'm still not sure there's anything there that can't be served with
the term ‘rich web page’ or ‘semantic web page’ — two terms already
in use. What is the semantic way to mark up a business card? hCard.
If some reference to the page specifics is required in documentation
somehow, does ‘microformatted content’ or ‘microformatted web page’
not suffice?
Ben
Thom Shannon
this is something different which needs to be identified, a user needs
to understand that the website has to support a standard that matches
what their software is looking for. Otherwise it doesn't work. This can
then help drive the uptake of MF since clients and managers will want to
know why they can't use their "add to address book" button on their own
site, this is where the name is important.
Thom Shannon
when someone saves a link is a good example of some useful functionality
that can just work without any new name. I think hCard and hCal are new,
this isn't something their web browser hasn't done before, and people
will want to know why it only works sometimes.
Thom Shannon
we need to do some more research outside of this mailing list?
Does anyone have any ideas how we could design some research to try and
answer this? Some scenarios we could user test would be the difference
between a page with MF and a page without for a user with an MF
supporting browser but no concept of MF. And a user without an MF
consumer coming across a page encouraging them to get one.
Stephanie Hobson
I'm normally pretty quite on this list because I'm more of a usability
and front end designer than a programmer. I thought I'd chip in my
$0.02 though because this is such an interesting discussion.
I agree that the average user needs to be able to call this new
browser ability something.
I think they will most understand it if it is associated with what
they can do with it "download this contact" but that we need a generic
name because they need to be able to understand why it doesn't work on
all contacts all the time.
I'm not sure it's the job of this community to come up with that name
and, in fact, I think we are all too geeky and too familiar with the
idea. It needs to be something totally unrelated to what we call it.
I think including the words "micro" "format" "semantic" "data" and
"tag" should not be included.
The idea of researching is a great idea!
This is a very small sample size but, well, I called and asked my Mum
what she would call it. Well I called and asked her if she could
click on a address or an event and add it to her address book or
calendar what she'd call it. And then asked her how she'd word it if
she was trying to write the slogan for the web browser.
First she said she'd call it "neat" which is a good sign all this work
will be very well received by non geeks ;) So don't miss this chance
to pat yourself on the back ;)
More seriously she said she'd call it "instant updates". "Instantly
update your calender with this event." which doesn't meet the
requirement for a name that explains why it only works some time.
My point here is that she used none of the words have come up in our
discussions and that we should engage people from outside the
community when trying to make this decision.
As a side note: I don't think the idea of calling it "neat
information" is that bad actually. Neat implies that the data is tidy
or well arranged (even semantic) and that it can do something cool.
Information that isn't neat can't do the same things ;)
Thanks,
-Stephanie.
Thom Shannon
this functionality on other non-geeks and try and get an idea of how
it's received.
Maybe we can start a wiki page to gather this info?
Can I say again that I think this only applies to a small number of MFs,
mainly hCal and hCard. Unless anyone else thinks different?
Ryan King
> hQuote anyone? ;-)
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-Q
-ryan
Ryan King
> On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon <th...@ts0.com> wrote:
>> Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
>> concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers
>> and
>> possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to
>> implement
>> them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"
>
> I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
> creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
> rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
> re-branded.
I couldn't agree more. I think this discussion is rather unproductive
for this community. Just build the tools, design them well and get
people to use them. If you never use the word 'microformat' in your
application, that's fine. No harm, no foul, no need to build a new
brand.
-ryan
Andy Mabbett
King <ry...@technorati.com> writes
>On Jun 28, 2007, at 1:37 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> hQuote anyone? ;-)
>
>http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#edef-Q
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon
--
Andy Mabbett
Pelle W
> On Jun 28, 2007, at 6:13 AM, Frances Berriman wrote:
>> On 28/06/07, Thom Shannon <th...@ts0.com> wrote:
>>> Exactly! We need a brand and a website that introduces people to the
>>> concept, tells them where to get the plugins or the right browsers and
>>> possibly encourages them to put pressure on their web guys to implement
>>> them, "Want x's on your site? Then use Microformats"
>> I think better encouragement would come from putting energy into
>> creating tools, plug-ins, examples and tutorials for those people -
>> rather than trying to re-brand something that's already something else
>> re-branded.
> I couldn't agree more. I think this discussion is rather unproductive
> for this community. Just build the tools, design them well and get
> people to use them. If you never use the word 'microformat' in your
> application, that's fine. No harm, no foul, no need to build a new brand.
group of which I'm relatively new can't decide what people will call
this and FF3 perhaps shouldn't call it something. Everybody can choose
their own name and it will - by the power of web 2.0 which microformat
is very much a part of - become a good word in the end.
Probably none of us here is the right ones to decide something like this...
/ Pelle
Alex Faaborg
> this...
Fair enough, several other people have made this point as well. We
are always open to feedback about microformat detection in Firefox 3,
so if anyone has any comments, please feel free to post them to this
list or email me directly.
> FF3 perhaps shouldn't call it something
The menu which contacts, addresses and locations are listed under
will need some form of name. Also, journalists will probably want a
feature name in press briefings and when they make product comparison
tables, etc. We aren't likely to call it SuperHyperMetaMagic, but we
are going to need to call it something.
> Everybody can choose their own name and it will - by the power of
> web 2.0 which microformat is very much a part of - become a good
> word in the end.
Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the
best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the
rest of the mozilla community. I'll post updates to this list from
time to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and
names other people come up with as well.
-Alex
Paul Wilkins
|> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the
> best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the
> rest of the mozilla community. I'll post updates to this list from time
> to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and names
> other people come up with as well.
The RSS feeds are accessed in the browser through the feed button.
So it makes sense that the microformat data should be accessed through the
data button.
I do like data, it's concise and is easy to explain.
Q: What kind of data can I get from the data button?
A: Contact details, calender entries, geographic locations, . . .
Q: Does the data button always get the information?
A: No, only when the page author has specially marked out those parts of the
page.
--
Paul Wilkins
Tantek Çelik
>> Probably none of us here is the right ones to decide something like
>> this...
>
> Fair enough, several other people have made this point as well. We
> are always open to feedback about microformat detection in Firefox 3,
> so if anyone has any comments, please feel free to post them to this
> list or email me directly.
>
>> FF3 perhaps shouldn't call it something
>
> The menu which contacts, addresses and locations are listed under
> will need some form of name. Also, journalists will probably want a
> feature name in press briefings and when they make product comparison
> tables, etc. We aren't likely to call it SuperHyperMetaMagic, but we
> are going to need to call it something.
Perhaps that is right way to capture this issue then, as a *user-interface*
issue.
Alex, go ahead and add a description and labeling of this issue to:
http://microformats.org/wiki/user-interface
along with the evidence/needs you cited (e.g. number/source of journalists
that have requested a name for microformats features in order to talk about
them).
>> Everybody can choose their own name and it will - by the power of
>> web 2.0 which microformat is very much a part of - become a good
>> word in the end.
>
> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the
> best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the
> rest of the mozilla community. I'll post updates to this list from
> time to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and
> names other people come up with as well.
I'd definitely suggest adding thoughts and ideas to the 'user-interface'
page on the microformats wiki so that these issues (and brainstorms) raised
here on the list aren't lost to the pile of email.
Thanks,
Tantek
Alex Faaborg
> microformats, will Thunderbird?
The thunderbird developers have been asking about microformats, so
they are definitely looking into it. Previous discussions have been
about hCard, but other formats could of course be sent in HTML emails
as well. Mozilla is adding microformat detection to our rendering
engine, so any Gecko-based Web browser will be able to leverage our
microformat parsing (Camino, Flock, etc.)
-Alex
Michael MD
> are definitely looking into it.
awesome!
will there be authoring tools in Thunderbird too?
I've been looking for years for some easy-to-use authoring software to
suggest to media publicists to embed machine-readable events data in those
html emails they keep sending me!
Will it be able to create combined hcalendar/adr/hcard for event data so
that the city/country of the event can be marked up?
Pelle W
> From: "Alex Faaborg" <faa...@mozilla.com>
> |> Mozilla's user experience team is going to continue brainstorming the
>> best way to expose microformat detection to end users, along with the
>> rest of the mozilla community. I'll post updates to this list from
>> time to time, and it will be interesting to see what interfaces and
>> names other people come up with as well.
> The RSS feeds are accessed in the browser through the feed button.
> So it makes sense that the microformat data should be accessed through
> the data button.
>
> I do like data, it's concise and is easy to explain.
>
> Q: What kind of data can I get from the data button?
> A: Contact details, calender entries, geographic locations, . . .
>
> Q: Does the data button always get the information?
> A: No, only when the page author has specially marked out those parts
> of the page.
be reached from below the data-button to emphasize the similarities.
/ Pelle
Alex Faaborg
"attachments," along with a little paper clip icon. This would
resonate with users who are familiar with email, but on the downside,
a lot of people have been trained that attachments=danger.
-Alex
Joe Andrieu
I would suggest that attachments are definitely a bad idea. They imply opening or saving a completely separate document/file and
are, as you state, "danger" waiting to happen.
LiveData
HyperData
SmartData
WebData
MagicData
LiveBits
HyperBits
SmartBits
WebBits
MagicBits
Bits being a combination of both bits/bytes and tidbits.
Someone somewhere is going to name this thing. It might be a journalist. It might be FF. It could be a blogger.
The idea that there is data embedded in a web page that the browser can consistently interact with beyond the hyperlink is new.
Especially when that embedding and the interactions are consistent across many many webpages, but not all web pages. Users will
name it something. I think people understand "data" but rarely have a need to speak of data generally--we talk about contacts or
events or people or reviews.
But when "my brain is full": it's got too much stuff. Too much data. I think people get that. Data is generalized digital bits in
some way that's useful. hCards, hCalendars, GEO, XFN and other uF or POSH generalize to data. Semantic data.
Of course, "bookmarks" were a pretty innovative metaphor. Perhaps there is something completely different that works. Maybe
something from tidbits. Or morsels...
Anyway, good luck. I expect you might have more luck with the FF crew.
-j
--
Joe Andrieu
SwitchBook Software
http://www.switchbook.com
j...@switchbook.com
+1 (805) 705-8651
Alex Faaborg
The interface model doesn't necessarily have to actually match the
implementation model, but yeah, I'm still not a huge fan of the
attachments idea.
Some other interface specific names I've been thinking about
"Pointers" for: http://tinyurl.com/278y8g
"Hyperlayers" for: http://tinyurl.com/26mqf3
(or "layers" for short)
Both of those names have previously been shot down inside Mozilla,
ironically enough because some people felt that the interface-level
name should emerge out of the microformats community. In the past
Web browsers have lagged far enough behind the evolution of the Web
that names have already been established (like with Feeds).
-Alex
Pelle W
>> They imply opening or saving a completely separate document/file
> The interface model doesn't necessarily have to actually match the
> implementation model, but yeah, I'm still not a huge fan of the
> attachments idea.
>
> "Hyperlayers" for: http://tinyurl.com/26mqf3
> (or "layers" for short)
like something coming from a classic PR-campaign. At least "Hyperlayers"
- image an ad with the text "Increase your productivity with the all new
Firefox 3 now with hyperlayers". Very cool - but does it actually tell
us something?
Can't it be kept simple? Does it have to be a new name - couldn't it
rather be a description of an action - like data extraction? (Don't know
if thats the right spelling though)
That would tell what it does and it would be less PR-like and more
"honest"(?) - it's just plain simply describing what this new thing does
and that's what I think is most important. Keep it simple.
> Both of those names have previously been shot down inside Mozilla,
> ironically enough because some people felt that the interface-level
> name should emerge out of the microformats community. In the past Web
> browsers have lagged far enough behind the evolution of the Web that
> names have already been established (like with Feeds).
Well - that is ironic :) Perhaps the "real" place for this would be
among the comments on a YouTube-movie featuring this in action or in
blogosphere? But that does however not stop us from having this
discussion...
Alex Faaborg
> extraction?
Yeah, maybe just name the button/menu "Send Data." I think the
sending is probably more important than the extraction.
-Alex
Pelle W
>> couldn't it rather be a description of an action - like data extraction?
> Yeah, maybe just name the button/menu "Send Data." I think the
> sending is probably more important than the extraction.
> -Alex
Thom Shannon
folder, or a person, or a bluetooth device.
Could you call the functionality sendable data? Or maybe go back to my
earlier suggestion of reusable data?
Bob Jonkman
about "RE: [uf-discuss] microformats for normal people, " on 29 Jun 2007 at 0:04
> Someone somewhere is going to name this thing. It might be a journalist.
> It might be FF. It could be a blogger.
It might be Joe Andrieu...
> The idea that there is data embedded in a web page that the browser can
> consistently interact with [...]
"Embedded Data" +1 for Bob Jonkman
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