Memory solved
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Chris Ricci
Mar 10, 2012, 9:25:24 PM3/10/12
to Metaphysical Speculations
I am new to this group and kinda new to this stuff, but thought this
was interesting. It seemed to me that this may indeed solve the
problem of memory, which seems to be crucial to the argument for
Materialism. I am not as informed on the subject so I thought I would
get a second opinion.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120309103701.htm
was interesting. It seemed to me that this may indeed solve the
problem of memory, which seems to be crucial to the argument for
Materialism. I am not as informed on the subject so I thought I would
get a second opinion.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120309103701.htm
Bernardo
Mar 11, 2012, 4:45:10 AM3/11/12
to Metaphysical Speculations
This is an extremely interesting paper, thanks. I had had a chance to
look at it indeed a couple of days before you posted, so I have some
thoughts on it already. The main contribution is the postulated
mechanism for 6-bit encoding in CaMKII. But to say that this solves
the problem of memory is an yet unjustified stretch. We know
experimentally that removal of up to 90% of the brain of rats doesn't
seem to impact their memory (they can still negotiate a maze they had
learned before surgical removal of parts of their brains). It's as if
memory was nowhere and everywhere, which is what motivated Karl
Pribram to think of memory as holographic. Such lack of localization
is not tackled by the mechanism proposed in this new paper, since the
local storage of specific bits in CaMKII would seem to require
precisely the opposite. Another thing to keep in mind is that it is
currently unknown, even in principle, how synaptic activity leads to
conscious experience (in principle, it could all happen purely
electrochemically, 'in the dark,' like much of the brain's activity).
So even if we had a complete and proven model of how synaptic activity
patterns can be stored (and we are far from it, despite this new paper
representing some potential progress), it would still leave open the
mechanism for how that can be translated into the experience of
memories.
Stuart Hameroff is the lead researcher of this new study. So it's a
matter of time before he links this to his 'quantum consciousness'
theories, which are non-local. This could make his proposed mechanism
of memory more plausible, but at the cost of deviating from strict
materialism as understood and adopted by most neuroscientists today.
In other words, the explanation would sit somewhere between the
material and non-material, with a fair dose of quantum "woo"... :-)
For my own philosophy, it is not important whether memories have
physical correlates (i.e. bits) stored in the brain or not. In fact,
in my first book, "Rationalist Spirituality," I explicitly assume that
memory correlates (which I called 'symbols') are indeed stored in the
brain like bits in a computer. I do think, though, that finding these
mechanisms of storage, in view of the empirical data at hand, has
proven extremely elusive and won't be solved suddenly.
look at it indeed a couple of days before you posted, so I have some
thoughts on it already. The main contribution is the postulated
mechanism for 6-bit encoding in CaMKII. But to say that this solves
the problem of memory is an yet unjustified stretch. We know
experimentally that removal of up to 90% of the brain of rats doesn't
seem to impact their memory (they can still negotiate a maze they had
learned before surgical removal of parts of their brains). It's as if
memory was nowhere and everywhere, which is what motivated Karl
Pribram to think of memory as holographic. Such lack of localization
is not tackled by the mechanism proposed in this new paper, since the
local storage of specific bits in CaMKII would seem to require
precisely the opposite. Another thing to keep in mind is that it is
currently unknown, even in principle, how synaptic activity leads to
conscious experience (in principle, it could all happen purely
electrochemically, 'in the dark,' like much of the brain's activity).
So even if we had a complete and proven model of how synaptic activity
patterns can be stored (and we are far from it, despite this new paper
representing some potential progress), it would still leave open the
mechanism for how that can be translated into the experience of
memories.
Stuart Hameroff is the lead researcher of this new study. So it's a
matter of time before he links this to his 'quantum consciousness'
theories, which are non-local. This could make his proposed mechanism
of memory more plausible, but at the cost of deviating from strict
materialism as understood and adopted by most neuroscientists today.
In other words, the explanation would sit somewhere between the
material and non-material, with a fair dose of quantum "woo"... :-)
For my own philosophy, it is not important whether memories have
physical correlates (i.e. bits) stored in the brain or not. In fact,
in my first book, "Rationalist Spirituality," I explicitly assume that
memory correlates (which I called 'symbols') are indeed stored in the
brain like bits in a computer. I do think, though, that finding these
mechanisms of storage, in view of the empirical data at hand, has
proven extremely elusive and won't be solved suddenly.
Bernardo
Mar 11, 2012, 4:52:52 AM3/11/12
to Metaphysical Speculations
Oh, another thing to consider is how this new proposed mechanism can
be reconciled with other recent findings. For instance, this 2009
paper:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/institute_basic_biomedical_sciences/news_events/articles_and_stories/learning_memory/200906_reducing_memory_molecule.html
In this paper, it has been experimentally shown that the DNA
transcription factor NF-kappaB is essential in the formation of
memories. Rats genetically engineered to not produce NF-kappaB could
not form memories. Now here is the role of this transcription factor,
quoting from the paper above:
"That observation, says Meffert, suggested that NF-kappaB might act as
a sort of messenger; it might somehow receive incoming information at
the synapse (from a neurotransmitter, for example) and then travel to
the nucleus to deliver that information to the genes. That
communication process might be integral to learning and memory."
So, apparently, memory formation is dependent on some kind of
intermediation between synaptic activity and DNA transcription in the
nucleus, via this particular transcription factor (NF-kappaB). At
first sight, this has nothing to do with the mechanism proposed by
Hameroff et al, as per the paper you referenced. I trust this 2009
paper more, because it has a strong empirical, experimental components
(the rats!). So Hameroff's ideas would need to be reconciled with
this, and countless other experimental results (some of which I
indicated in my earlier reply), before one can say that one found the
storage mechanism for the neural correlates of memories. We're a very
long way off...
By the way, welcome to the message board, Chris.
On Mar 11, 9:45 am, Bernardo <anonymous_metaphys...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
be reconciled with other recent findings. For instance, this 2009
paper:
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/institute_basic_biomedical_sciences/news_events/articles_and_stories/learning_memory/200906_reducing_memory_molecule.html
In this paper, it has been experimentally shown that the DNA
transcription factor NF-kappaB is essential in the formation of
memories. Rats genetically engineered to not produce NF-kappaB could
not form memories. Now here is the role of this transcription factor,
quoting from the paper above:
"That observation, says Meffert, suggested that NF-kappaB might act as
a sort of messenger; it might somehow receive incoming information at
the synapse (from a neurotransmitter, for example) and then travel to
the nucleus to deliver that information to the genes. That
communication process might be integral to learning and memory."
So, apparently, memory formation is dependent on some kind of
intermediation between synaptic activity and DNA transcription in the
nucleus, via this particular transcription factor (NF-kappaB). At
first sight, this has nothing to do with the mechanism proposed by
Hameroff et al, as per the paper you referenced. I trust this 2009
paper more, because it has a strong empirical, experimental components
(the rats!). So Hameroff's ideas would need to be reconciled with
this, and countless other experimental results (some of which I
indicated in my earlier reply), before one can say that one found the
storage mechanism for the neural correlates of memories. We're a very
long way off...
By the way, welcome to the message board, Chris.
On Mar 11, 9:45 am, Bernardo <anonymous_metaphys...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Chris Ricci
Mar 11, 2012, 2:40:27 PM3/11/12
to Metaphysical Speculations
Thank you very much for the reply. It has cleared A few things up for
me. I am new to this expanded mind thing but open minded enough to ask
people who I think are well informed. It is actually hard to look at
it given how I was taught to think. Psi phenomena and the like are
hard reconcile with the things I know or rather think I know, but I
keep seeing studies. The more I look into it the more experiment I
find.
On Mar 11, 3:52 am, Bernardo <anonymous_metaphys...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
me. I am new to this expanded mind thing but open minded enough to ask
people who I think are well informed. It is actually hard to look at
it given how I was taught to think. Psi phenomena and the like are
hard reconcile with the things I know or rather think I know, but I
keep seeing studies. The more I look into it the more experiment I
find.
On Mar 11, 3:52 am, Bernardo <anonymous_metaphys...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Oh, another thing to consider is how this new proposed mechanism can
> be reconciled with other recent findings. For instance, this 2009
> paper:http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/institute_basic_biomedical_sciences/ne...
> be reconciled with other recent findings. For instance, this 2009
Chris Ricci
Mar 17, 2012, 5:37:55 PM3/17/12
to Metaphysical Speculations
Yet another interesting article on memory.
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S33/17/36M20/
I also read some stuff about Penfields studies which are interesting.
I feel conflicted. I feel or believe that memory is located in the
brain but some of these things I am reading suggest something
different, but also show some dependence on the brain or other
material aspects. Damage to the brain inhibits memory, but in some
cases unlocks it or talents in people. I dont know how to reconcile
these things. Memory seems to depend on certain brain stuff, but does
not at the same time.
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S33/17/36M20/
I also read some stuff about Penfields studies which are interesting.
I feel conflicted. I feel or believe that memory is located in the
brain but some of these things I am reading suggest something
different, but also show some dependence on the brain or other
material aspects. Damage to the brain inhibits memory, but in some
cases unlocks it or talents in people. I dont know how to reconcile
these things. Memory seems to depend on certain brain stuff, but does
not at the same time.
Bernardo
Mar 17, 2012, 6:04:56 PM3/17/12
to Metaphysical Speculations
As a kind of idealist, I personally see the brain as a construct in
consciousness (not the other way around). As such, it is not only
unsurprising by necessary that there be correlations between brain
states and states of consciousness, including states of memory recall,
though not necessarily in all circumstances. You could look upon brain
activity as a kind of correlate of memory access, even if the qualia
of memory are not really stored in the brain; a kind of resonance, if
you will. For instance, the tuning circuitry of older analog TVs would
resonate with the channels it was tuned to, but that circuitry did not
contain the images of the channel. So the correlation did not imply
that the programming content was stored in the TV. Similarly, brain
activity may be required for the brain to tune up to a non-physical
memory "channel." In Rationalist Spirituality, where I adopted a
Dualist metaphor, I assumed that the brain did contain the symbols
necessary to access memories, like keys. Either way, I personally
don't see memory storage as too key an issue; I believe my own
philosophy works just fine wherever memories are stored. Cheers,
Bernardo.
On Mar 17, 10:37 pm, Chris Ricci <cj.ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yet another interesting article on memory.http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S33/17/36M20/
consciousness (not the other way around). As such, it is not only
unsurprising by necessary that there be correlations between brain
states and states of consciousness, including states of memory recall,
though not necessarily in all circumstances. You could look upon brain
activity as a kind of correlate of memory access, even if the qualia
of memory are not really stored in the brain; a kind of resonance, if
you will. For instance, the tuning circuitry of older analog TVs would
resonate with the channels it was tuned to, but that circuitry did not
contain the images of the channel. So the correlation did not imply
that the programming content was stored in the TV. Similarly, brain
activity may be required for the brain to tune up to a non-physical
memory "channel." In Rationalist Spirituality, where I adopted a
Dualist metaphor, I assumed that the brain did contain the symbols
necessary to access memories, like keys. Either way, I personally
don't see memory storage as too key an issue; I believe my own
philosophy works just fine wherever memories are stored. Cheers,
Bernardo.
On Mar 17, 10:37 pm, Chris Ricci <cj.ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yet another interesting article on memory.http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S33/17/36M20/
Chris Ricci
Mar 26, 2012, 12:05:15 AM3/26/12
to Metaphysical Speculations
Is it just me or are there a lot of these articles recently.
http://www.kurzweilai.net/researchers-prove-that-memories-reside-in-specific-brain-cells?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=4894b3820d-UA-946742-1&utm_medium=email
This one to me seems more than a bit misleading in its title. In fact
to me this seems very similar to Penfield's research, except from what
I have read he managed to get more interesting results, yet came to a
different conclusion.
On Mar 17, 6:04 pm, Bernardo <anonymous_metaphys...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/researchers-prove-that-memories-reside-in-specific-brain-cells?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=4894b3820d-UA-946742-1&utm_medium=email
This one to me seems more than a bit misleading in its title. In fact
to me this seems very similar to Penfield's research, except from what
I have read he managed to get more interesting results, yet came to a
different conclusion.
On Mar 17, 6:04 pm, Bernardo <anonymous_metaphys...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Bernardo
Mar 26, 2012, 4:00:16 PM3/26/12
to Metaphysical Speculations
Chris, I decided to write an article on my thoughts regarding memory
and the brain. Have a look at the blog. Cheers, Bernardo.
On Mar 26, 6:05 am, Chris Ricci <cj.ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it just me or are there a lot of these articles recently.
>
> http://www.kurzweilai.net/researchers-prove-that-memories-reside-in-s...
and the brain. Have a look at the blog. Cheers, Bernardo.
On Mar 26, 6:05 am, Chris Ricci <cj.ri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it just me or are there a lot of these articles recently.
>
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