Homeopathic

[BC]

This might be worth showing for some comic relief during the upcoming
debate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

-BC-

[Muddle Head]

That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
serious scientific studies demonstrate this.

By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
very inexpensive advertising.

[Preston Rogers]

I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
take it over, they could have.

Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)

I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
subjective symptoms,
then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
disease.


Do you know what the primary treatment for
fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
fibromyalgia diagnosis.

I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.

It really comes down
to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
would need to be controlled in the study.

I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
person.

Your humble dropout dictator-
Preston

[Jason]

Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).

We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
weeks.

Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.

Jason



On Jul 8, 10:19 am, "Preston Rogers" <rprestonrog...@comcast.net>
wrote:

[Clogtowner]

Hi y'all - yes, sounds a little homeopathetic to me!

[Muddle Head]

On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
> statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> and so forth.

Jason,

Kindly ban yourself from this discussion board for making an ad
hominem attack. :-)

On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > -BC-- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Muddle Head]

Okay, I'm game for the August meeting, assuming that it is the last
Sunday in August. I will begin preparing and discussing the rules
after I finish running a discussion on a paper about joke religions at
occam's this comming monday.

[Jason]

Perhaps the three of us (and other MFA officers) could me for lunch
and discuss it. I hope that we focus more on structure than rules per
se. I want it to be open and honest about the ideas. What I don't
want is a simple shouting match or a situation where the two of you
talk over each other (or one gets significantly more floor time than
the other unless the other person yields that time).

[Clogtowner]

Hi y'all - I'd like you both to present evidence that I was not aware
of and had not considered so that I can form a new position on the
topic.

[Human...@aol.com]

Um, this is simply an exercise in debate, right?  I mean everyone involved agrees that homeopathic medicine is snake oil, right?  No one here actually believes that it has any effect whatsoever, except of course for the placebo effect, right?

 

J.

[Preston Rogers]

No, I believe there are some on the board who think it offers some benefit.  To what degree... I'm not sure.

[Human...@aol.com]

Ok.  I will take a drop of pure grain alcohol and put it in a quart of water.  Then I will take a drop of that water..........  Then drink a pint or so and see if I get drunk on my ass.

 

J.

[Muddle Head]

A meeting sounds good. I can meet next week.

On Jul 8, 3:17 pm, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Preston Rogers]

I'm in