Atheist's Attack on America
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Jason Grosser
Aug 15, 2009, 1:09:52 PM8/15/09
to MFA groups, MFA Discussion
To Whom It May Concern:
I would like to formally thank everyone who attended the Church of Christ lecture titled "Atheism's Attack on America" last night.
I counted 12 atheists and 1 Wicca who attended to present an alternative viewpoint and help eliminate misconceptions about atheism. In addition, the majority of the questions and statements after Brad Hurrab's talk were from our group.
Again, thanks you! Thank you!
Many members of Collierville Church of Christ expressed gratitude for our dialogue and asked us to return for the other lectures in this seminar.
I believe that putting a human face on atheists and responding to misconception about atheism and science is a very important role for Memphis Freethought Alliance and friends of MFA.
A few of us will also be attending tonight's lecture at 6:30 pm on evolution at the Collierville Church of Christ. We would love for you to join us.
I would also like to thank the Collierville Church of Christ and Brad Hurrab for publicly welcoming us at the church.
Take care,
Jason Grosser
President, Memphis Freethought Alliance
Advancing Reason, Science and Secular Government Through Education and Social Events
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
I would like to formally thank everyone who attended the Church of Christ lecture titled "Atheism's Attack on America" last night.
I counted 12 atheists and 1 Wicca who attended to present an alternative viewpoint and help eliminate misconceptions about atheism. In addition, the majority of the questions and statements after Brad Hurrab's talk were from our group.
Again, thanks you! Thank you!
Many members of Collierville Church of Christ expressed gratitude for our dialogue and asked us to return for the other lectures in this seminar.
I believe that putting a human face on atheists and responding to misconception about atheism and science is a very important role for Memphis Freethought Alliance and friends of MFA.
A few of us will also be attending tonight's lecture at 6:30 pm on evolution at the Collierville Church of Christ. We would love for you to join us.
I would also like to thank the Collierville Church of Christ and Brad Hurrab for publicly welcoming us at the church.
Take care,
Jason Grosser
President, Memphis Freethought Alliance
Advancing Reason, Science and Secular Government Through Education and Social Events
Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you. Try Bing now.
Lady Naya
Aug 16, 2009, 7:45:31 AM8/16/09
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
It was a very interesting lecture. The speaker was, of course, full
of it, but his style was one worthy of watching. We were taking notes
half the time on how he specifically presented his information in such
a way that it would settle easily into uncritical minds, and his
diversion and sleight-of-word tactics for avoiding questions he could
not answer. I was annoyed at the way he couldn't give me an answer to
my question, which was, "Well, even if all of this evidence for the
origins of humankind and of the universe doesn't convince you, how is
it that you can then conclude that /your particular story/ is what
fills in the blank? Why not any other creation myth? What if it were
all birthed from a giant turtle or something?" He was quite good at
not answering my question. He answered questions with questions, and
was good at flipping the defensive back to the person asking. All of
these things are very good to observe and know... he knew certain
rules of debate, such as the ad hominem attack, which he pointed out
when an audience member called him on his BS and an incomplete truth.
I have to remember to do the same - I should have pointed out, "You're
answering a question with a question. Just answer mine, please."
One question that I think every freethinker needs to have answered
already - because it will be asked every time - is "what is the basis
of your morality?" These folks say, "The Bible," and they need that
book to keep them from going nuts killing, raping, and pillaging.
However, without a better explanation than just "well, I just KNOW
what is right and wrong!" they'll run all over you with it. I
mentioned to a few people I was dining with afterward that Michael
Shermer's "The Science of Good and Evil" is a very nice place to start
with this. Likewise, I'd suggest Desmond Morris' "The Human Zoo,"
which looks at society and social ethics from a zoologist's
standpoint.
I found particularly interesting the undercurrents in what he was
saying. They're the Hebrews and the rest of us are the Greeks (you
know, those naughty naughty people who like to run around naked and
make homoerotic art - I had to really center myself to not fall over
laughing.). They are the memetic descendants of little warlike tribes
with strong authoritarian tendencies; the rest of us he compared to
the Greeks, who tend to value things like learning, free and critical
inquiry, the arts and sciences, and democracy. In effect, we're very
much different people from very different cultures, which makes it
very strange to figure out things like laws and social structure. I
suppose that is why he was spending so much time going over the evils
of homosexuality; the memetic descendants of the Hebrews must find
such a lack of concern for authoritarian structures to be pretty
unsettling.
I had a nice chat with the speaker afterward. As a theist (I was the
Wiccan in the group), I think I boggled him a bit. We were talking
about how he wanted to bring God into the science classroom. I told
him that God - the very concept of God - transcends human logic; An
omnipotent, omnipresent being who has been there always with no
beginning and no end cannot easily be bound by logic, because the
concept itself is illogical. I told him, "what should be taught in a
science classroom is science. God is too big to fit into a science
classroom, and teachers are not theologians. For any one who asks,
the teacher needs to refer that student to the student's particular
priest or priestess, minister, imam, guru, pastor, or pope. The
teacher is not a theologian. Logic belongs in a classroom and
anything that is bigger than that needs to be handled by someone who
has specialized knowledge of that." I tried to make it a point for
him to see that in attempting to put God into the classroom, he is
doing God a great disservice. He didn't seem to like that, because I
strongly get the impression that once again, it isn't about honoring
God's part in creation, but it's about using the classroom as a place
to impose beliefs where they do not belong.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYC...
of it, but his style was one worthy of watching. We were taking notes
half the time on how he specifically presented his information in such
a way that it would settle easily into uncritical minds, and his
diversion and sleight-of-word tactics for avoiding questions he could
not answer. I was annoyed at the way he couldn't give me an answer to
my question, which was, "Well, even if all of this evidence for the
origins of humankind and of the universe doesn't convince you, how is
it that you can then conclude that /your particular story/ is what
fills in the blank? Why not any other creation myth? What if it were
all birthed from a giant turtle or something?" He was quite good at
not answering my question. He answered questions with questions, and
was good at flipping the defensive back to the person asking. All of
these things are very good to observe and know... he knew certain
rules of debate, such as the ad hominem attack, which he pointed out
when an audience member called him on his BS and an incomplete truth.
I have to remember to do the same - I should have pointed out, "You're
answering a question with a question. Just answer mine, please."
One question that I think every freethinker needs to have answered
already - because it will be asked every time - is "what is the basis
of your morality?" These folks say, "The Bible," and they need that
book to keep them from going nuts killing, raping, and pillaging.
However, without a better explanation than just "well, I just KNOW
what is right and wrong!" they'll run all over you with it. I
mentioned to a few people I was dining with afterward that Michael
Shermer's "The Science of Good and Evil" is a very nice place to start
with this. Likewise, I'd suggest Desmond Morris' "The Human Zoo,"
which looks at society and social ethics from a zoologist's
standpoint.
I found particularly interesting the undercurrents in what he was
saying. They're the Hebrews and the rest of us are the Greeks (you
know, those naughty naughty people who like to run around naked and
make homoerotic art - I had to really center myself to not fall over
laughing.). They are the memetic descendants of little warlike tribes
with strong authoritarian tendencies; the rest of us he compared to
the Greeks, who tend to value things like learning, free and critical
inquiry, the arts and sciences, and democracy. In effect, we're very
much different people from very different cultures, which makes it
very strange to figure out things like laws and social structure. I
suppose that is why he was spending so much time going over the evils
of homosexuality; the memetic descendants of the Hebrews must find
such a lack of concern for authoritarian structures to be pretty
unsettling.
I had a nice chat with the speaker afterward. As a theist (I was the
Wiccan in the group), I think I boggled him a bit. We were talking
about how he wanted to bring God into the science classroom. I told
him that God - the very concept of God - transcends human logic; An
omnipotent, omnipresent being who has been there always with no
beginning and no end cannot easily be bound by logic, because the
concept itself is illogical. I told him, "what should be taught in a
science classroom is science. God is too big to fit into a science
classroom, and teachers are not theologians. For any one who asks,
the teacher needs to refer that student to the student's particular
priest or priestess, minister, imam, guru, pastor, or pope. The
teacher is not a theologian. Logic belongs in a classroom and
anything that is bigger than that needs to be handled by someone who
has specialized knowledge of that." I tried to make it a point for
him to see that in attempting to put God into the classroom, he is
doing God a great disservice. He didn't seem to like that, because I
strongly get the impression that once again, it isn't about honoring
God's part in creation, but it's about using the classroom as a place
to impose beliefs where they do not belong.
> Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYC...
Jason
Aug 16, 2009, 12:06:29 PM8/16/09
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Good summary and explanation of his approach and talk.
Clogtowner
Aug 16, 2009, 1:04:54 PM8/16/09
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - FYI his Saturday lectures were even more malodorous than
his Friday one. Too much to go into, but a few details: dinosaurs were
on the ark (babies of course.) The flood was global and covered Mt.
Everest. The earth is 6,000 years old. Man hunted and ate dinosaurs.
Dinosaur art is everywhere - Inca, Maya, Egyptian, Prior to the flood
Lions were herbivores etc.etc.
I'm sorry I can't go
on.................................................. Perhaps Jason can
expand.
I managed to get a plug in for Victor Stenger.
his Friday one. Too much to go into, but a few details: dinosaurs were
on the ark (babies of course.) The flood was global and covered Mt.
Everest. The earth is 6,000 years old. Man hunted and ate dinosaurs.
Dinosaur art is everywhere - Inca, Maya, Egyptian, Prior to the flood
Lions were herbivores etc.etc.
I'm sorry I can't go
on.................................................. Perhaps Jason can
expand.
I managed to get a plug in for Victor Stenger.
Jason
Aug 16, 2009, 6:11:31 PM8/16/09
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Dr. Hurrab claimed that dinosaurs co-existed with the Incas, Mayans
and so forth. He cited various dinosaur sculptures and drawings on
caves and art work within the past few thousand years. These ancient
drawings looked nearly identical to paleontologists' depiction of
dinosaurs today, including people riding dinosaurs. Based on the
evidence and tactics used previously, Dr. Hurrab probably showed Mayan
or Inca drawings of dinosaurs drawn just a year or two ago. If
challenged, Dr. Hurrab would probably say things such as, "I never
said that those Mayan pottery drawings of dinosaurs were not made in
August 2008. I simply said that ancient Mayans drew dinosaurs.
Neither did I say that I had some of those drawings or that the
pictures I showed were of these ancient drawings." To sum it up, he
did not lie per se but he did deliberately deceive the congregation
from what I could tell. Daniel thought that he did seem to be
sincere. However, I think that he sincerely wanted to defend the Holy
Bible at all costs and not present a clear or accurate picture of
evolution or science.
Jason
and so forth. He cited various dinosaur sculptures and drawings on
caves and art work within the past few thousand years. These ancient
drawings looked nearly identical to paleontologists' depiction of
dinosaurs today, including people riding dinosaurs. Based on the
evidence and tactics used previously, Dr. Hurrab probably showed Mayan
or Inca drawings of dinosaurs drawn just a year or two ago. If
challenged, Dr. Hurrab would probably say things such as, "I never
said that those Mayan pottery drawings of dinosaurs were not made in
August 2008. I simply said that ancient Mayans drew dinosaurs.
Neither did I say that I had some of those drawings or that the
pictures I showed were of these ancient drawings." To sum it up, he
did not lie per se but he did deliberately deceive the congregation
from what I could tell. Daniel thought that he did seem to be
sincere. However, I think that he sincerely wanted to defend the Holy
Bible at all costs and not present a clear or accurate picture of
evolution or science.
Jason
iamtheblog
Aug 17, 2009, 6:02:50 PM8/17/09
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
I also attended the talks on Saturday. I've been subscribed to the MFA
Google group for a while and have been lurking on and off. I live
around the area but am not officially "out" as an atheist in real
life, except to my wife.
I went to the talks because I thought it would be interesting to see
how creationist scientists operate, and was interested what questions,
if any, there would be to challenge the speaker. Although I obviously
recognized the vast majority of what he said as garbage right away, I
was surprised at how eloquent of a speaker Dr. Harrub was. As
mentioned in the other thread, he comes off as very professional. I
can understand why people who have been told all their lives that the
Bible is true would be duped into buying what he was saying. Here's a
Christian guy with a PhD coming to us with slides and scientific
sources (some of them decades old, but I'm sure most people didn't
notice that!) which seem to disprove what evolutionists say and
confirm what the Bible tells me about my God.
I think the baby dinosaurs on the Ark was the highlight/lowlight of
the evening. He seemed to be so smugly proud of this explanation. A
close second was the "proof" that we didn't evolve because we are
intelligent beings, and the Bible says Adam was smart enough not only
to name all the animals, but to remember their names.
I am glad that they allowed a couple of freethinkers/atheists (I'm
assuming from this group) to pose questions at the Q & A. He didn't
have any good response to the plate tectonics / magnetism questions,
nor to why we should believe what they are teaching now as opposed to
the "Dinosaurs never existed" rhetoric that was spewed until fairly
recently.
I hope there were at least some people who had doubts or a less
extreme/literal form of Christianity who could see through the holes
in his arguments, although telling from the nods and at least one
"Amen" there probably weren't many in those camps. My wife, who is a
believer, disagreed with a lot of what he said and the way he
presented his information, so I'm hoping there are other believers in
the audience who felt the same way.
I was dismayed at the fact that there were a number of children in the
audience who were being exposed to this, and that the speaker told the
audience several times how important it was to make sure to teach
(i.e. brainwash) children the "truth" about creationism and dinosaurs
before the schools, TVs, and books start planting doubts in their
mind. It's sad to think that there will be children who are raised
just to accept things on authority, to ignore contradictory evidence,
and to not think for themselves.
It was interesting to read your thoughts on the Saturday sessions, and
also about what I missed on Friday in the other thread. In case
anyone's interested, I posted a blog about Saturday's talks at
http://iamtheblog.com/wordpress2/?p=725
I look forward to interacting with MFA in the future (online, or
possibly at the talk in October you mentioned).
Best wishes,
iamthblog
Google group for a while and have been lurking on and off. I live
around the area but am not officially "out" as an atheist in real
life, except to my wife.
I went to the talks because I thought it would be interesting to see
how creationist scientists operate, and was interested what questions,
if any, there would be to challenge the speaker. Although I obviously
recognized the vast majority of what he said as garbage right away, I
was surprised at how eloquent of a speaker Dr. Harrub was. As
mentioned in the other thread, he comes off as very professional. I
can understand why people who have been told all their lives that the
Bible is true would be duped into buying what he was saying. Here's a
Christian guy with a PhD coming to us with slides and scientific
sources (some of them decades old, but I'm sure most people didn't
notice that!) which seem to disprove what evolutionists say and
confirm what the Bible tells me about my God.
I think the baby dinosaurs on the Ark was the highlight/lowlight of
the evening. He seemed to be so smugly proud of this explanation. A
close second was the "proof" that we didn't evolve because we are
intelligent beings, and the Bible says Adam was smart enough not only
to name all the animals, but to remember their names.
I am glad that they allowed a couple of freethinkers/atheists (I'm
assuming from this group) to pose questions at the Q & A. He didn't
have any good response to the plate tectonics / magnetism questions,
nor to why we should believe what they are teaching now as opposed to
the "Dinosaurs never existed" rhetoric that was spewed until fairly
recently.
I hope there were at least some people who had doubts or a less
extreme/literal form of Christianity who could see through the holes
in his arguments, although telling from the nods and at least one
"Amen" there probably weren't many in those camps. My wife, who is a
believer, disagreed with a lot of what he said and the way he
presented his information, so I'm hoping there are other believers in
the audience who felt the same way.
I was dismayed at the fact that there were a number of children in the
audience who were being exposed to this, and that the speaker told the
audience several times how important it was to make sure to teach
(i.e. brainwash) children the "truth" about creationism and dinosaurs
before the schools, TVs, and books start planting doubts in their
mind. It's sad to think that there will be children who are raised
just to accept things on authority, to ignore contradictory evidence,
and to not think for themselves.
It was interesting to read your thoughts on the Saturday sessions, and
also about what I missed on Friday in the other thread. In case
anyone's interested, I posted a blog about Saturday's talks at
http://iamtheblog.com/wordpress2/?p=725
I look forward to interacting with MFA in the future (online, or
possibly at the talk in October you mentioned).
Best wishes,
iamthblog
Jason
Aug 17, 2009, 7:25:40 PM8/17/09
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
iamtheblog,
On Saturday, Clogtowner was the one who presented the magnetism
question to Dr. Hurrab, and I was the person who told him about
Christians arguing against the very existence of dinosaurs (verses now
arguing adamantly for their existence). On Friday, we had a better
Q&A, which lasted about 1-hr with 12 atheists and 1 Wicca presenting
an alternative viewpoint.
Jason
> anyone's interested, I posted a blog about Saturday's talks athttp://iamtheblog.com/wordpress2/?p=725
> ...
>
> read more »
On Saturday, Clogtowner was the one who presented the magnetism
question to Dr. Hurrab, and I was the person who told him about
Christians arguing against the very existence of dinosaurs (verses now
arguing adamantly for their existence). On Friday, we had a better
Q&A, which lasted about 1-hr with 12 atheists and 1 Wicca presenting
an alternative viewpoint.
Jason
>
> read more »
Liz Purkrabek
Aug 17, 2009, 10:15:03 PM8/17/09
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
I was the loud and obnoxious one in the red dress.
Clogtowner
Aug 18, 2009, 10:12:49 AM8/18/09
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - an excellent summary. Your views are very consistent with
ours. I did think that from the point of view of misinformed
Christians he answered my questions about magnetism and Continental
Drift logically. He was happy to accept that the magnetic field of
earth decays in a stable linear fashion but that the speed of
Continental Drift is not stable or linear, otherwise one would be able
to see the coast of Europe from New York. Obviously misinformed
Christians who don't look too deeply into science would accept his
double standard answers.
I share your distress at the number of children being misled and
directed away from science. What kind of future can we expect for this
country if the next generation have no concept of our scientific
history? I guess history is doomed to repeat itself.
> anyone's interested, I posted a blog about Saturday's talks athttp://iamtheblog.com/wordpress2/?p=725
> ...
>
> read more »
ours. I did think that from the point of view of misinformed
Christians he answered my questions about magnetism and Continental
Drift logically. He was happy to accept that the magnetic field of
earth decays in a stable linear fashion but that the speed of
Continental Drift is not stable or linear, otherwise one would be able
to see the coast of Europe from New York. Obviously misinformed
Christians who don't look too deeply into science would accept his
double standard answers.
I share your distress at the number of children being misled and
directed away from science. What kind of future can we expect for this
country if the next generation have no concept of our scientific
history? I guess history is doomed to repeat itself.
>
> read more »
iamtheblog
Aug 21, 2009, 9:53:04 AM8/21/09
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Sorry it's taken me a while to reply. Thanks for introducing
yourselves to me; it helps to be able to put names to faces! Liz, I
don't remember seeing you unfortunately; were you in the same section
as Jason and Clogtowner? Hopefully I'll get to meet you all (and
others) at a future event.
Thanks for commenting on my post Clogtowner, and I'm glad that my
views are pretty consistent with yours. I'm still fairly new with
writing about atheism, so I'm sure I'll get better with time. I'm glad
to hear Jason that dissenting viewpoints were very well-represented on
Friday and that you were able to ask a lot of questions. Hopefully it
helped the audience (including any impressionable children in the
audience) to hear many people openly questioning Harrub's claims.
I actually found a site which has recordings of Harrub's talks,
including the ones he gave here. Although the recordings are from 2007
and his spiel may have "evolved" since then, it still might be useful
for people who didn't hear him speak here to get an idea of what his
style is like, and also for people who will see him speak in the
future so they can prepare for the sorts of nonsense he brings up.
http://www.oldhamlane.org/harrub.php
> ...
>
> read more »
yourselves to me; it helps to be able to put names to faces! Liz, I
don't remember seeing you unfortunately; were you in the same section
as Jason and Clogtowner? Hopefully I'll get to meet you all (and
others) at a future event.
Thanks for commenting on my post Clogtowner, and I'm glad that my
views are pretty consistent with yours. I'm still fairly new with
writing about atheism, so I'm sure I'll get better with time. I'm glad
to hear Jason that dissenting viewpoints were very well-represented on
Friday and that you were able to ask a lot of questions. Hopefully it
helped the audience (including any impressionable children in the
audience) to hear many people openly questioning Harrub's claims.
I actually found a site which has recordings of Harrub's talks,
including the ones he gave here. Although the recordings are from 2007
and his spiel may have "evolved" since then, it still might be useful
for people who didn't hear him speak here to get an idea of what his
style is like, and also for people who will see him speak in the
future so they can prepare for the sorts of nonsense he brings up.
http://www.oldhamlane.org/harrub.php
>
> read more »
Liz Purkrabek
Aug 21, 2009, 10:29:04 AM8/21/09
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
I was at the talk on Friday night.
-----Original Message-----
From: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of iamtheblog
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:53 AM
To: Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Subject: Re: Atheist's Attack on America
-----Original Message-----
From: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of iamtheblog
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2009 8:53 AM
To: Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Subject: Re: Atheist's Attack on America
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