That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
very inexpensive advertising.
I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to take it over, they could have.
Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very subjective symptoms,
then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect. Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy. It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious disease.
Do you know what the primary treatment for
fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
fibromyalgia diagnosis.
I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
It really comes down
to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
would need to be controlled in the study.
I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in person.
That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
very inexpensive advertising.
Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
weeks.
Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
Jason
On Jul 8, 10:19 am, "Preston Rogers" <rprestonrog...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> take it over, they could have.
> Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> subjective symptoms,
> then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
> would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> disease.
> Do you know what the primary treatment for
> fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> It really comes down
> to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> would need to be controlled in the study.
> I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> person.
> Your humble dropout dictator-
> Preston
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Muddle Head" <michaelcop...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance"
> That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> very inexpensive advertising.
> Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
> statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
> interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
> if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
> We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
> weeks.
> Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
> > I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> > Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> > is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> > take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> > of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> > any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> > take it over, they could have.
> > Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> > barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> > defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> > homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> > Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> > from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> > I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> > homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> > subjective symptoms,
> > then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> > debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> > conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> > subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> > Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
> > would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> > It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> > disease.
> > Do you know what the primary treatment for
> > fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> > Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> > Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> > fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> > I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> > cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> > pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> > alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> > harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> > It really comes down
> > to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> > in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> > for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> > would need to be controlled in the study.
> > I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> > person.
> > Your humble dropout dictator-
> > Preston
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Muddle Head" <michaelcop...@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance"
> > That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> > known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> > It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> > people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> > homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> > fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> > industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> > right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> > varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> > better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> > serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> > By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> > possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> > want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> > homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> > to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> > industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> > preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> > If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> > have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> > their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> > be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> > critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> > religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> > would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> > semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> > debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> > to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> > very inexpensive advertising.
> > On Jul 3, 3:28 pm, BC <bc_9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > This might be worth showing for some comic relief during the upcoming
> > > debate.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
> statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> and so forth.
Jason,
Kindly ban yourself from this discussion board for making an ad
hominem attack. :-)
On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
> statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
> interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
> if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
> We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
> weeks.
> Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
> > I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> > Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> > is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> > take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> > of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> > any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> > take it over, they could have.
> > Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> > barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> > defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> > homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> > Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> > from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> > I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> > homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> > subjective symptoms,
> > then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> > debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> > conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> > subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> > Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
> > would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> > It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> > disease.
> > Do you know what the primary treatment for
> > fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> > Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> > Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> > fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> > I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> > cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> > pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> > alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> > harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> > It really comes down
> > to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> > in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> > for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> > would need to be controlled in the study.
> > I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> > person.
> > Your humble dropout dictator-
> > Preston
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Muddle Head" <michaelcop...@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance"
> > That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> > known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> > It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> > people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> > homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> > fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> > industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> > right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> > varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> > better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> > serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> > By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> > possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> > want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> > homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> > to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> > industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> > preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> > If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> > have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> > their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> > be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> > critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> > religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> > would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> > semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> > debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> > to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> > very inexpensive advertising.
> > On Jul 3, 3:28 pm, BC <bc_9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > This might be worth showing for some comic relief during the upcoming
> > > debate.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
Okay, I'm game for the August meeting, assuming that it is the last
Sunday in August. I will begin preparing and discussing the rules
after I finish running a discussion on a paper about joke religions at
occam's this comming monday.
On Jul 8, 12:37 pm, Clogtowner <clogtow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi y'all - yes, sounds a little homeopathetic to me!
> On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
> > statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> > and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
> > interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
> > if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
> > We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
> > weeks.
> > Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
> > > I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> > > Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> > > is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> > > take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> > > of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> > > any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> > > take it over, they could have.
> > > Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> > > barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> > > defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> > > homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> > > Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> > > from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> > > I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> > > homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> > > subjective symptoms,
> > > then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> > > debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> > > conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> > > subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> > > Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
> > > would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> > > It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> > > disease.
> > > Do you know what the primary treatment for
> > > fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> > > Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> > > Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> > > fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> > > I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> > > cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> > > pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> > > alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> > > harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> > > It really comes down
> > > to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> > > in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> > > for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> > > would need to be controlled in the study.
> > > I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> > > person.
> > > That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> > > known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> > > It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> > > people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> > > homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> > > fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> > > industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> > > right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> > > varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> > > better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> > > serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> > > By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> > > possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> > > want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> > > homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> > > to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> > > industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> > > preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> > > If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> > > have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> > > their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> > > be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> > > critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> > > religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> > > would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> > > semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> > > debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> > > to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> > > very inexpensive advertising.
> > > On Jul 3, 3:28 pm, BC <bc_9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > This might be worth showing for some comic relief during the upcoming
> > > > debate.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
Perhaps the three of us (and other MFA officers) could me for lunch
and discuss it. I hope that we focus more on structure than rules per
se. I want it to be open and honest about the ideas. What I don't
want is a simple shouting match or a situation where the two of you
talk over each other (or one gets significantly more floor time than
the other unless the other person yields that time).
On Jul 8, 3:12 pm, Muddle Head <michaelcop...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Okay, I'm game for the August meeting, assuming that it is the last
> Sunday in August. I will begin preparing and discussing the rules
> after I finish running a discussion on a paper about joke religions at
> occam's this comming monday.
> On Jul 8, 12:37 pm, Clogtowner <clogtow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi y'all - yes, sounds a little homeopathetic to me!
> > On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
> > > statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> > > and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
> > > interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
> > > if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
> > > We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
> > > weeks.
> > > Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
> > > > I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> > > > Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> > > > is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> > > > take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> > > > of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> > > > any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> > > > take it over, they could have.
> > > > Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> > > > barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> > > > defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> > > > homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> > > > Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> > > > from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> > > > I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> > > > homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> > > > subjective symptoms,
> > > > then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> > > > debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> > > > conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> > > > subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> > > > Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
> > > > would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> > > > It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> > > > disease.
> > > > Do you know what the primary treatment for
> > > > fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> > > > Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> > > > Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> > > > fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> > > > I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> > > > cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> > > > pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> > > > alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> > > > harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> > > > It really comes down
> > > > to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> > > > in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> > > > for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> > > > would need to be controlled in the study.
> > > > I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> > > > person.
> > > > That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> > > > known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> > > > It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> > > > people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> > > > homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> > > > fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> > > > industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> > > > right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> > > > varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> > > > better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> > > > serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> > > > By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> > > > possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> > > > want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> > > > homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> > > > to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> > > > industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> > > > preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> > > > If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> > > > have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> > > > their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> > > > be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> > > > critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> > > > religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> > > > would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> > > > semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> > > > debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> > > > to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> > > > very inexpensive advertising.
> > > > On Jul 3, 3:28 pm, BC <bc_9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > This might be worth showing for some comic relief during the upcoming
> > > > > debate.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
> Perhaps the three of us (and other MFA officers) could me for lunch
> and discuss it. I hope that we focus more on structure than rules per
> se. I want it to be open and honest about the ideas. What I don't
> want is a simple shouting match or a situation where the two of you
> talk over each other (or one gets significantly more floor time than
> the other unless the other person yields that time).
> On Jul 8, 3:12 pm, Muddle Head <michaelcop...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Okay, I'm game for the August meeting, assuming that it is the last
> > Sunday in August. I will begin preparing and discussing the rules
> > after I finish running a discussion on a paper about joke religions at
> > occam's this comming monday.
> > On Jul 8, 12:37 pm, Clogtowner <clogtow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi y'all - yes, sounds a little homeopathetic to me!
> > > On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
> > > > statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> > > > and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
> > > > interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
> > > > if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
> > > > We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
> > > > weeks.
> > > > Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
> > > > > I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> > > > > Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> > > > > is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> > > > > take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> > > > > of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> > > > > any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> > > > > take it over, they could have.
> > > > > Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> > > > > barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> > > > > defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> > > > > homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> > > > > Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> > > > > from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> > > > > I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> > > > > homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> > > > > subjective symptoms,
> > > > > then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> > > > > debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> > > > > conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> > > > > subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> > > > > Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
> > > > > would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> > > > > It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> > > > > disease.
> > > > > Do you know what the primary treatment for
> > > > > fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> > > > > Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> > > > > Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> > > > > fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> > > > > I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> > > > > cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> > > > > pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> > > > > alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> > > > > harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> > > > > It really comes down
> > > > > to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> > > > > in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> > > > > for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> > > > > would need to be controlled in the study.
> > > > > I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> > > > > person.
> > > > > That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> > > > > known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> > > > > It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> > > > > people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> > > > > homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> > > > > fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> > > > > industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> > > > > right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> > > > > varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> > > > > better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> > > > > serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> > > > > By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> > > > > possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> > > > > want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> > > > > homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> > > > > to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> > > > > industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> > > > > preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> > > > > If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> > > > > have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> > > > > their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> > > > > be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> > > > > critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> > > > > religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> > > > > would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> > > > > semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> > > > > debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> > > > > to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> > > > > very inexpensive advertising.
> > > > > On Jul 3, 3:28 pm, BC <bc_9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > This might be worth showing for some comic relief during the upcoming
> > > > > > debate.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
Um, this is simply an exercise in debate, right? I mean everyone involved agrees that homeopathic medicine is snake oil, right? No one here actually believes that it has any effect whatsoever, except of course for the placebo effect, right?
J.
Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
weeks.
Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
Jason
On Jul 8, 10:19 am, "Preston Rogers" <rprestonrog...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> take it over, they could have.
> Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> subjective symptoms,
> then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as
you
> would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of
homeopathy.
> It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> disease.
> Do you know what the primary treatment for
> fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> It really comes down
> to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant
difference
> in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> would need to be controlled in the study.
> I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> person.
> Your humble dropout dictator-
> Preston
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Muddle Head" <michaelcop...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance"
> That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> very inexpensive advertising.
----- Original Message ----- From: Humanis...@aol.com To: memphisfreethoughtalliance@googlegroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Homeopathic
Um, this is simply an exercise in debate, right? I mean everyone involved agrees that homeopathic medicine is snake oil, right? No one here actually believes that it has any effect whatsoever, except of course for the placebo effect, right?
J.
Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
weeks.
Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
Jason
On Jul 8, 10:19 am, "Preston Rogers" <rprestonrog...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> take it over, they could have.
> Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> subjective symptoms,
> then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
> would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> disease.
> Do you know what the primary treatment for
> fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> It really comes down
> to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> would need to be controlled in the study.
> I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> person.
> Your humble dropout dictator-
> Preston
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Muddle Head" <michaelcop...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance"
> That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> very inexpensive advertising.
Ok. I will take a drop of pure grain alcohol and put it in a quart of water. Then I will take a drop of that water.......... Then drink a pint or so and see if I get drunk on my ass.
J.
No, I believe there are some on the board who think it offers some benefit. To what degree... I'm not sure.
Um, this is simply an exercise in debate, right? I mean everyone involved agrees that homeopathic medicine is snake oil, right? No one here actually believes that it has any effect whatsoever, except of course for the placebo effect, right?
J.
Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
weeks.
Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
Jason
On Jul 8, 10:19 am, "Preston Rogers" <rprestonrog...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted
to
> take it over, they could have.
> Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not
yet
> defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> subjective symptoms,
> then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as
you
> would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> disease.
> Do you know what the primary treatment for
> fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then
suffer
> harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> It really comes down
> to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response
seen
> for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> would need to be controlled in the study.
> I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> person.
> Your humble dropout dictator-
> Preston
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Muddle Head" <michaelcop...@yahoo.com>
> To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance"
> That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> very inexpensive advertising.
> Perhaps the three of us (and other MFA officers) could me for lunch
> and discuss it. I hope that we focus more on structure than rules per
> se. I want it to be open and honest about the ideas. What I don't
> want is a simple shouting match or a situation where the two of you
> talk over each other (or one gets significantly more floor time than
> the other unless the other person yields that time).
> On Jul 8, 3:12 pm, Muddle Head <michaelcop...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Okay, I'm game for the August meeting, assuming that it is the last
> > Sunday in August. I will begin preparing and discussing the rules
> > after I finish running a discussion on a paper about joke religions at
> > occam's this comming monday.
> > On Jul 8, 12:37 pm, Clogtowner <clogtow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi y'all - yes, sounds a little homeopathetic to me!
> > > On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start saying
> > > > statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> > > > and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
> > > > interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
> > > > if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
> > > > We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
> > > > weeks.
> > > > Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA debate.
> > > > > I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due to a
> > > > > Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, the debate
> > > > > is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA members to
> > > > > take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the general area
> > > > > of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if there were
> > > > > any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or wanted to
> > > > > take it over, they could have.
> > > > > Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? We've
> > > > > barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have not yet
> > > > > defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or "Does
> > > > > homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over placeboes?" or "Is
> > > > > Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the debate
> > > > > from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> > > > > I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed journals. If
> > > > > homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, with very
> > > > > subjective symptoms,
> > > > > then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> > > > > debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is often
> > > > > conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain reporting, a very
> > > > > subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is suspect.
> > > > > Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, as you
> > > > > would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of homeopathy.
> > > > > It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing infectious
> > > > > disease.
> > > > > Do you know what the primary treatment for
> > > > > fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are given
> > > > > Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve disorder.
> > > > > Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients seeking a
> > > > > fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> > > > > I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine when they
> > > > > cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As Bill has
> > > > > pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> > > > > alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, then suffer
> > > > > harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> > > > > It really comes down
> > > > > to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant difference
> > > > > in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any response seen
> > > > > for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient receives
> > > > > would need to be controlled in the study.
> > > > > I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via phone or in
> > > > > person.
> > > > > That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> > > > > known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore them.
> > > > > It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not all,
> > > > > people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> > > > > homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to get
> > > > > fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> > > > > industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> > > > > right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> > > > > varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> > > > > better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> > > > > serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> > > > > By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> > > > > possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed to
> > > > > want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or not
> > > > > homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not seem
> > > > > to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> > > > > industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do serious
> > > > > preparation and get the word out so that the event will be worthwhile.
> > > > > If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want to
> > > > > have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> > > > > their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this would
> > > > > be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> > > > > critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics and
> > > > > religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> > > > > would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and summer
> > > > > semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> > > > > debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three months
> > > > > to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> > > > > very inexpensive advertising.
> > > > > On Jul 3, 3:28 pm, BC <bc_9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > This might be worth showing for some comic relief during the upcoming
> > > > > > debate.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
----- Original Message ----- From: "Muddle Head" <michaelcop...@yahoo.com>
To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance" <memphisfreethoughtalliance@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Homeopathic
A meeting sounds good. I can meet next week.
On Jul 8, 3:17 pm, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps the three of us (and other MFA officers) could me for lunch
> and discuss it. I hope that we focus more on structure than rules per
> se. I want it to be open and honest about the ideas. What I don't
> want is a simple shouting match or a situation where the two of you
> talk over each other (or one gets significantly more floor time than
> the other unless the other person yields that time).
> On Jul 8, 3:12 pm, Muddle Head <michaelcop...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Okay, I'm game for the August meeting, assuming that it is the last
> > Sunday in August. I will begin preparing and discussing the rules
> > after I finish running a discussion on a paper about joke religions at
> > occam's this comming monday.
> > On Jul 8, 12:37 pm, Clogtowner <clogtow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi y'all - yes, sounds a little homeopathetic to me!
> > > On Jul 8, 11:35 am, Jason <jason_gros...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Typical supporter of homepathic therapy tactics, that is, start > > > > saying
> > > > statements such as being force to debate on the other person's terms
> > > > and so forth. The debate is about whether or not homeopathic
> > > > interventions are effective or just a good way to entertain yourself
> > > > if you have extra cash to blow (bias intended).
> > > > We should set the rules or structure of the debate in the next few
> > > > weeks.
> > > > Thank you Michael & Preston to volunteering for our first MFA > > > > debate.
> > > > > I'm confused. I did not back out. The debate is being delayed due > > > > > to a
> > > > > Foxhole Atheist speaker that can only come in in July, therefore, > > > > > the debate
> > > > > is being moved to August. Initially, I did encourage other MFA > > > > > members to
> > > > > take it on if they wanted. Some members enjoy debating in the > > > > > general area
> > > > > of flim-flam and pseudo-science so I thought I'd offer it up if > > > > > there were
> > > > > any takers. I am no expert on homeopathy so if someone could or > > > > > wanted to
> > > > > take it over, they could have.
> > > > > Exactly HOW have I tried to FORCE the debate to be on my terms? > > > > > We've
> > > > > barely discussed it so how can I be steering the debate? We have > > > > > not yet
> > > > > defined the debate either- is it "Is Homeopathy Effective?" or > > > > > "Does
> > > > > homeopathic rememdies show significant effectiveness over > > > > > placeboes?" or "Is
> > > > > Homeopathy worthwhile?" I must be telepathically manipulating the > > > > > debate
> > > > > from afar...(while backing out at the same time!)
> > > > > I want to include all valid studies published in peer-reviewed > > > > > journals. If
> > > > > homeopathic studies tend to focus on ailments, like fibromyalgia, > > > > > with very
> > > > > subjective symptoms,
> > > > > then they should be included, challenged and examined in the
> > > > > debate. Homeopathic research that supports its effectiveness is > > > > > often
> > > > > conducted when the ailments studied involve patient pain > > > > > reporting, a very
> > > > > subjective test method. Patients' expression of how they "feel" is > > > > > suspect.
> > > > > Including that perspective in the debate rather than censoring it, > > > > > as you
> > > > > would have it, seems to be important to deciding the efficacy of > > > > > homeopathy.
> > > > > It would be enlightening to see a double-blind study on curing > > > > > infectious
> > > > > disease.
> > > > > Do you know what the primary treatment for
> > > > > fibromyalgia is? Exercise and anti-depressants. Many patients are > > > > > given
> > > > > Lyrica, similar to a pain killer, which was made for a nerve > > > > > disorder.
> > > > > Lyrica and Hydrocodone Rx's demand drive the incidence of patients > > > > > seeking a
> > > > > fibromyalgia diagnosis.
> > > > > I expect homeopathy to go head to head with conventional medicine > > > > > when they
> > > > > cross over in treating the same condition albeit differently. As > > > > > Bill has
> > > > > pointed out to me, if patients opt for an ineffective homeopathic
> > > > > alternative in favor of a sound conventional medical treatment, > > > > > then suffer
> > > > > harm or death, then it becomes important to compare the two.
> > > > > It really comes down
> > > > > to whether homepathic remedies have any statistically significant > > > > > difference
> > > > > in effect than the placebo in repeated studies over time. Any > > > > > response seen
> > > > > for the individual, personal attention that a homeopathic patient > > > > > receives
> > > > > would need to be controlled in the study.
> > > > > I would be glad to discuss the details of the debate online, via > > > > > phone or in
> > > > > person.
> > > > > That was good and funny. I had a good laugh. It showed the current
> > > > > known limits of homeopathy and how silly it would be to ignore > > > > > them.
> > > > > It also demonstrated the limits of understanding of most, but not > > > > > all,
> > > > > people who think that homeopathy is totally worthless. Using
> > > > > homeopathy in a situation like that is sort of like expecting to > > > > > get
> > > > > fine-tuned by modern industrial medicine. That stuff (modern
> > > > > industrial medicine) is great for serious traumas, when they do it
> > > > > right. When the mess up, look out. However, one or more of the
> > > > > varieties of flake medicine, when used properly, is typically far
> > > > > better for subtle but real problems such as PMS. And in many cases
> > > > > serious scientific studies demonstrate this.
> > > > > By the way, there won't be a debate soon. I'm still open to the
> > > > > possibility, but Preston seemed to have backed out. He also seemed > > > > > to
> > > > > want to force the debate to be on his terms. Debating weather or > > > > > not
> > > > > homeopathy worked for some subtle but very real ailments did not > > > > > seem
> > > > > to suit him. He seemed to expect it to go head to head with modern
> > > > > industrial medicine on all fronts. I also insisted that we do > > > > > serious
> > > > > preparation and get the word out so that the event will be > > > > > worthwhile.
> > > > > If we have the debate, I want to win, but win lose or draw, I want > > > > > to
> > > > > have the event draw more people into the MFA, or at least increase
> > > > > their respect for critical thinking and debate. Hopefully this > > > > > would
> > > > > be a small help in encouraging people to feel comfortable applying
> > > > > critical thinking and debate to other issues, especially politics > > > > > and
> > > > > religion. At this point there is not enough time to prepare, but I
> > > > > would be willing try for a date sometime between the spring and > > > > > summer
> > > > > semesters of 2009/2010. It won't take me that long to prepare to
> > > > > debate my side, but I think it will take at least two or three > > > > > months
> > > > > to set up the event, decide on rules, find judges, do good free or
> > > > > very inexpensive advertising.
> > > > > On Jul 3, 3:28 pm, BC <bc_9...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > This might be worth showing for some comic relief during the > > > > > > upcoming
> > > > > > debate.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0
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