Wanted: An Apollo program for math

[Ihor Charischak]

Hello Dr. Devlin,

I'm a member of an educational discussion group Math 2.0 and recently several of us read your article "Wanted an Apollo Program for Math" and have been thinking and writing (and getting excited) about what you proposed in your article. Since the article was posted last February, we were interested in knowing more about the current status of the project and how our group might be of help to you.

Thanks and best wishes,

Ihor

Ihor Charischak

CLIME - The Council for Technology in Math Education

An affiliate of NCTM

http://clime.org

[Maria Droujkova]

Keith,

People at the Math 2.0 Group have much interest in your project. We appreciate NDAs you probably have, but still, could you come to one of our live online events and talk to the group in voice? We usually do meetings in Elluminate. I think this may help you and your group. I summarized some questions people had in email group discussions:

• Give us an update on any activities that your center has done in moving toward this simulator vision. - Ihor Charischak, CLIME (Council for Technology in Math Education, NCTM)
• Keith, do you want the resulting system available worldwide? Why or why not? - Maria Droujkova, Natural Math
• Have you considered doing this project in a virtual world? Would this project be able to run in a virtual world? - Anna-Marie Robertson, Richard McKenna Charter High School Online
• A series of simulator questions from Colleen King, Math Playground
• What would a math simulator look like? Is there a unifying story or plot or will there be a system of unrelated challenges?

• The method is simulation. That’s the way we train pilots to fly aircraft, the way we train astronauts to fly the shuttle and to work in the Space Station, the way we train surgeons, and the way the US Army trains soldiers before they go anywhere near the battlefield. And that’s the way we should train young people to think mathematically.

   
  In these examples, simulation is being used by a small group of highly capable people; people with the necessary prerequisite skillset. A math simulator would have to accommodate a wide spectrum of learning styles and preferences. How would the simulator prepare a diverse group of learners?

• Mathematics is a way of thinking about problems and issues in the world. Get the thinking right and the skills come largely for free.

   
  I like the idea of a simulator in theory and I do agree that the goal is mathematical thinking. However, in my experience with students, skills really haven't come for free no matter how well problem solving and other applications have been presented. How will this project balance mathematical thinking with skill building?
• How will students' progress be assessed? How will we know this is working? Will state tests and standards need to be modified if the simulator replaces current math curricula?
• Would the simulator follow the current scope and sequence of math topics or will that also be revised?
• I would think there would be significant opposition from textbook publishers and other groups. How will this be handled?
• A series of questions about roles and levels of participants from Alexander Bogomolny, Cut the Knot:
• Keith builds his argument on the fact that pilots and surgeons are being trained on simulators. All of them pass a highly competitive and exausting set of tests before being let in a simulator. In the very least, Keith's simulator has to have an adaptation facility to accommodate every child.
• And, of course, there is a question of whether they'll emerge out of there with the sufficient proficiency as required for further educational choices. Will their distinct inclinations and plans for the future will be accounted for?
• What age groups are envisaged to be using the facility? Assuming this is done up to the middle school, is there any assurance that the kids will flock to the high school math classes and meet success?
• What would be a teacher role?
• Questions from Rob Costello, 3PLearning:
  
• Have you looked at using existing game engines? (possibly much more economical)
• Are there any articles or demos / proof of concepts that can be shared?
• I wonder how well can math be mapped into game / simulations?
• I have grave reservations about licensed, restricted or copyright code in the same way I find licensing knowledge morally problematic. - Tom Fullerton, Simon Fraser University and Lester B. Pearson School Board
• What about the teachers? The teachers are the key. The 1-1 communication in the classrooms. The sacred moments of understanding... the ahha experiences... - Dani Novak, Ithaca College
• Will schools have any kind of exclusive access, or will it go straight to the public?  What will his distribution channels be like? Will it be open source? - Kirby Urner, Oregon Curriculum Network
• Why not open source the project? Let the world build it. - Sol Lederman, Wild About Math
  

Cheers,
Maria Droujkova
http://www.naturalmath.com

Make math your own, to make your own math.

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Keith Devlin <kde...@stanford.edu> wrote:

Ihor,

In some respects a lot has happened, but most of the activity I cannot comment on. I and some colleagues on the game project are in the process of extracting the key mathematical ideas from the company that worked on the MMO, with a view to starting out on our own. There are several threads to our current activities. All I can say at the moment is, "Stay tuned." It's a work very much in progress.

Keith

------------ 

Keith Devlin

Executive Director, H-STAR Institute

Stanford University

Cordura Hall

210 Panama Street

Stanford, CA 94305-4115

Home page: http://www.stanford.edu/~kdevlin/

------------

[Ihor Charischak]

Hi Keith,

That's great to hear! I look forward to your updates.

-Ihor

On May 31, 2010, at 7:32 PM, Keith Devlin wrote:

Ihor,

In some respects a lot has happened, but most of the activity I cannot comment on. I and some colleagues on the game project are in the process of extracting the key mathematical ideas from the company that worked on the MMO, with a view to starting out on our own. There are several threads to our current activities. All I can say at the moment is, "Stay tuned." It's a work very much in progress.

Keith

------------ 

Keith Devlin

Executive Director, H-STAR Institute

Stanford University

Cordura Hall

210 Panama Street

Stanford, CA 94305-4115

Home page: http://www.stanford.edu/~kdevlin/

------------

On May 31, 2010, at 4:16 PM, Ihor Charischak wrote:

[Maria Droujkova]

Keith,

Thank you for the answers. Send you draft in whenever it's ready, and then people can read and we will schedule a discussion of it. This is exciting!

Cheers,
Maria Droujkova
http://www.naturalmath.com

Make math your own, to make your own math.

On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Keith Devlin <kde...@stanford.edu> wrote:

I'm currently writing a book that is essentially a case statement for a Simulator. I'd be very happy to have critiques and feedback when I have a complete draft ready -- probably some time this summer, maybe early fall. In the meantime, i can reply to some points off the bat since we already addressed them in our 4.5 years of effort! See below. More details will be in my manuscript. i'd love to circulate it among your group. We learned a lot, but there is still a lot of extrapolation that has to be done.

------------ 

Keith Devlin

Executive Director, H-STAR Institute

Stanford University

Cordura Hall

210 Panama Street

Stanford, CA 94305-4115

Home page: http://www.stanford.edu/~kdevlin/

------------

On May 31, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Maria Droujkova wrote:

Keith,

People at the Math 2.0 Group have much interest in your project. We appreciate NDAs you probably have, but still, could you come to one of our live online events and talk to the group in voice? We usually do meetings in Elluminate. I think this may help you and your group. I summarized some questions people had in email group discussions:

• Give us an update on any activities that your center has done in moving toward this simulator vision. - Ihor Charischak, CLIME (Council for Technology in Math Education, NCTM)

I'M NOT DOING THIS THROUGH MY STANFORD CENTER, AT LEAST NOT AT PRESENT. THE GAME DESIGN TALENT WE NEED IS ALL IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, AT LEAST IN SILICON VALLEY.

• Keith, do you want the resulting system available worldwide? Why or why not? - Maria Droujkova, Natural Math

YES.

• Have you considered doing this project in a virtual world? Would this project be able to run in a virtual world? - Anna-Marie Robertson, Richard McKenna Charter High School Online

IT IS INDEED A VW, THOUGH IT WOULD HAVE TO BE PURPOSE BUILT.

• A series of simulator questions from Colleen King, Math Playground
• What would a math simulator look like? Is there a unifying story or plot or will there be a system of unrelated challenges?

• The method is simulation. That’s the way we train pilots to fly aircraft, the way we train astronauts to fly the shuttle and to work in the Space Station, the way we train surgeons, and the way the US Army trains soldiers before they go anywhere near the battlefield. And that’s the way we should train young people to think mathematically.

TO COVER ALL PERSONALITY TYPES AND ALL LEARNING STYLES, IT WOULD NEED TO HAVE EVERYTHING. NO REASON WHY IT SHOULD NOT.

•  
  In these examples, simulation is being used by a small group of highly capable people; people with the necessary prerequisite skillset. A math simulator would have to accommodate a wide spectrum of learning styles and preferences. How would the simulator prepare a diverse group of learners?

• Mathematics is a way of thinking about problems and issues in the world. Get the thinking right and the skills come largely for free.

SAME RESPONSE AS ABOVE.

•  
  I like the idea of a simulator in theory and I do agree that the goal is mathematical thinking. However, in my experience with students, skills really haven't come for free no matter how well problem solving and other applications have been presented. How will this project balance mathematical thinking with skill building?

I DON'T KNOW OF A SINGLE VIDEOGAME THAT ISN'T CHOCK FULL OF SKILL BUILDING, THAT'S THE BREAD AND BUTTER OF VIDEOGAMES: LEARN-TEST-LEARN-TEST, ETC., ALL AT THE SKILLS LEVEL. SKILLS ARE THE EASY LOW HANGING FRUIT IN VIDEOGAMES. CONCEPTS ARE THE HARDER CHALLENGE.

• How will students' progress be assessed? How will we know this is working? Will state tests and standards need to be modified if the simulator replaces current math curricula?

TOO FAR IN THE FUTURE TO WORRY ABOUT NOW. THE INITIAL METRICS WILL BE EXISTING TESTS SO WE NEED TO ADDRESS THAT. BUT LONG TERM, THE SIMULATOR SHOULD PROVIDE ITS OWN TEST.

• Would the simulator follow the current scope and sequence of math topics or will that also be revised?

WHOSE CURRENT SEQUENCE? EG., TRADITIONAL US OR SOVIET DAVYDOV OR WHAT? GAMES ARE INHERENTLY NON-SEQUENTIAL. LINEARITY IS LARGELY A CONSEQUENCE OF TEXTBOOK DELIVERY. WITH SIMULATION AND EXPLORATORY LEARNING, ALL BETS ARE OFF. AND ABOUT TIME TOO.

• I would think there would be significant opposition from textbook publishers and other groups. How will this be handled?

ONCE THERE IS MOMENTUM, THEY'LL BUY IN AND LIKELY BE ONE OF THE MAJOR FUNDERS. THERE ARE ALREADY SIGNS OF THIS WITH CURRENT EDUCATION VIDEOGAME DESIGN.

• A series of questions about roles and levels of participants from Alexander Bogomolny, Cut the Knot:
• Keith builds his argument on the fact that pilots and surgeons are being trained on simulators. All of them pass a highly competitive and exausting set of tests before being let in a simulator. In the very least, Keith's simulator has to have an adaptation facility to accommodate every child.
• And, of course, there is a question of whether they'll emerge out of there with the sufficient proficiency as required for further educational choices. Will their distinct inclinations and plans for the future will be accounted for?
• What age groups are envisaged to be using the facility? Assuming this is done up to the middle school, is there any assurance that the kids will flock to the high school math classes and meet success?
• What would be a teacher role?

REMEMBER, THE IDEA IS NOT TO REPLACE TEACHERS OR TEXTBOOKS BUT ENHANCE THEM. IT WILL REQUIRE SOME TEACHER RE-EDUCATION, BUT THAT IS LONG OVERDUE. WITH THE WEB NOW PROLIFERATING WITH GOOD CONTENT DELIVERY MATERIAL, THE OLD IDEA OF ACQUIRE NEW STUFF IN CLASS AND PRACTICE IT FOR HOMEWORK WILL HAVE TO BE REVERSED REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO IN OUR PROJECT. IN TODAY'S WORLD. YOU CAN GET THE BASIC INSTRUCTION ONLINE AT HOME VERY EFFICIENTLY, WITH SLOMO AND REWIND CAPABILITY, AND THE TEACHER'S ROLE IN CLASS IS THEN ONE OF WORKING WITH THE CLASS ON EXERCISES TO GAIN UNDERSTANDING AND PROFICIENCY. THE SOONER WE MAKE THAT ADJUSTMENT THE BETTER IMO.

• Questions from Rob Costello, 3PLearning:
  
• Have you looked at using existing game engines? (possibly much more economical)
• Are there any articles or demos / proof of concepts that can be shared?
• I wonder how well can math be mapped into game / simulations?

EXISTING GAME ENGINES WON'T WORK. NOR WILL MIDDLEWARE. WE LEARNED THAT LESSON BIGTIME. THE PEDAGOGIC DEMANDS OVERWHELM THE PLATFORM. YOU HAVE TO BUILD THE PLATFORM ALONG WITH THE PEDAGOGY.

• I have grave reservations about licensed, restricted or copyright code in the same way I find licensing knowledge morally problematic. - Tom Fullerton, Simon Fraser University and Lester B. Pearson School Board

I'LL WORK WITH WHATEVER SYSTEM I HAVE TO TO GET THE JOB DONE. RIGHT NOW THE EXPERTISE IN GAMEWORLDS IS IN THE COMMERCIAL SECTOR SO WE;D NEED TO WORK WITH THEM. THE APOLLO ANALOGY WORKS WELL IN THAT REGARD

• What about the teachers? The teachers are the key. The 1-1 communication in the classrooms. The sacred moments of understanding... the ahha experiences... - Dani Novak, Ithaca College

IMO TEACHERS ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE KEY. A SIMULATOR GIVES THE TEACHER ANOTHER RESOURCE. CHECK OUT BRIANO COLLER'S WORK AT NIU FOR JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF HOW A GIFTED TEACHER (AT COLLEGE LEVEL IN THAT CASE) CAN GAIN AN EDUCATIONAL ADVANTAGE USING VIDEOGAMES. A SIMULATOR SHOULD GIVE RISE TO A LOT MORE OF THOSE ONE-ON-ONE AHA MOMENTS. AT LEAST WITH GOOD TEACHERS.

• Will schools have any kind of exclusive access, or will it go straight to the public?  What will his distribution channels be like? Will it be open source? - Kirby Urner, Oregon Curriculum Network

• Why not open source the project? Let the world build it. - Sol Lederman, Wild About Math

OPEN SOURCE MIGHT WORK ONCE THERE IS A LOT OF STUFF OUT THERE TO SHOW HOW IT IS DONE. WE LEARNED BIGTIME HOW HARD IT IS TO CREATE REALLY GOOD GAME INTERACTIONS THAT HELP BUILD MATHEMATICAL UNDERSTANDING. IF YOU WANT TO SEE HOW OPEN SOURCE MIGHT WORK, CHECK OUT ANY - AND I MEAN ANY - EXISTING GAME THAT PURPORTS TO TEACH MATH. SINCE THOSE GAMES ACTUALLY GOT OUT, THEY LIKELY REPRESENT THE VERY UPPER END OF WHAT OPEN SOURCE CAN ACHIEVE. PERSONALLY, I DOUBT OPEN SOURCE WILL WORK. FOR SURE, WE HAD A LOT OF TROUBLE FINDING CONTENT DEVELOPERS WHO REALLY COULD "GET IT".

[Dani Novak]

Dear Keith,

I know I am not just speaking for myself when I say that you have a  Whole Hearted for your efforts.  What counts most is the intent and the dream.  I met Stephen Wolfram (Mathematica) when his work just started to expand and he shared that many told him it could not be done etc...
Another example worth looking for is GeoGebra.  I believe that one individual Markus Hohenwarter had a dream and now many thousands of teachers around the world are using it and benefiting immensely.  He was able to focus very clearly on the goal and teachers around the world are catching up.  See
Geogebra.org if you did not see it yet.
 I see this filed of virtual learning as an unfolding garden with many trees and bushes some of them connected and some of them stand alone.  May this project that is now like a little seed grow to a huge red wood tree and provide a Iot of good mathematical oxygen to the minds of learners.  I do not think you need a lot of programmers to work on that.  What you need is clear design and maybe also grass root work with teachers with the intent of inclusion and not exclusion.  I hope that non selfishness will guide you and this project and it will not be imposed on teachers but gently integrated and have a wonderful impact on math education.  Also Google folks may be interested to help out.  Look at what they did and how it actually benefit so many people in so many ways.

Sincerely,

--Dani

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