Combined PQR

[shakin thobias]

Dear experts

I need to qualify welders in Both FCAW and SMAW. can i do both qualification in same PQR. what are the parameters and range of qualification. qualify that welders to max 30 mm thickness range. 

[Nithin Joseph]

what is the welding code?

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:11 PM shakin thobias <shakin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear experts

I need to qualify welders in Both FCAW and SMAW. can i do both qualification in same PQR. what are the parameters and range of qualification. qualify that welders to max 30 mm thickness range. 

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Regards,
Nithin Joseph Dsilva

+971 557645785

[prabir maji]

Yes you can

Thanking you,


P.K.MAJI
Sr Surveyor,
BUREAU VERITAS (I) PVT LTD.,
e-mail:-prabi...@in.bureauveritas.com
NAGPUR,
www.bureauveritas.co.in
Mob:9422127912

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[shakin thobias]

D1. 1

On 26-Oct-2018 10:12 AM, "Nithin Joseph" <nithind...@gmail.com> wrote:

what is the welding code?

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:11 PM shakin thobias <shakin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear experts

I need to qualify welders in Both FCAW and SMAW. can i do both qualification in same PQR. what are the parameters and range of qualification. qualify that welders to max 30 mm thickness range. 

--
https://materials-welding.blogspot.com/
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Regards,
Nithin Joseph Dsilva

+971 557645785

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[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Code is D1.1, if possible ,pl give code ref for combination

[shakin thobias]

As per reference Aws doesn't have provisions for qualifying multiple process in same plate. If any other methods to qualify?!!

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Is it possible to combine individualy qualified PQR to form single WPS 

[rajesh kaswala]

AS PER SEC. 9 

QW-306 Combination of Welding Processes

Each welder or welding operator shall be qualified

within the limits given in QW-301 for the specific welding process(es) he will be required to use in

production welding. A welder or welding operator

may be qualified by making tests with each individual

welding process in separate test coupons, or with a

combination of welding processes in a single test coupon.

Two or more welders or welding operators, each

using the same or a different welding process, may be

qualified in combination in a single test coupon. For

combination qualifications in a single test coupon, the

limits for thicknesses of deposited weld metal, and

bend and fillet testing are given in QW-452 and shall

be considered individually for each welder or welding

operator for each welding process or whenever there

is a change in an essential variable. A welder or welding

operator qualified in combination on a single test coupon

is qualified to weld in production using any of his

processes individually or in different combinations,

provided he welds within his limits of qualification

with each specific process.

Failure of any portion of a combination test in a

single test coupon constitutes failure of the entire

combination.

REGARD

RAJESH

On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:13 AM shakin thobias <shakin...@gmail.com> wrote:

D1. 1

On 26-Oct-2018 10:12 AM, "Nithin Joseph" <nithind...@gmail.com> wrote:

what is the welding code?

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:11 PM shakin thobias <shakin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear experts

I need to qualify welders in Both FCAW and SMAW. can i do both qualification in same PQR. what are the parameters and range of qualification. qualify that welders to max 30 mm thickness range. 

--
https://materials-welding.blogspot.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/122787
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Regards,
Nithin Joseph Dsilva

+971 557645785

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[Mohamed Muneeb]

Yes possible as per ix

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Rajesh, not for ASME, It is for AWS D1.1 what is being discussed here

[Nithin Joseph]

In AWS there is no provision of extracting a process. for eg, you are qualifying FCAW+SMAW, you have to use same combination on job too. Writing separate WPS for SMAW & FCAW is not acceptable as per AWSD1.1.

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:11 PM shakin thobias <shakin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear experts

I need to qualify welders in Both FCAW and SMAW. can i do both qualification in same PQR. what are the parameters and range of qualification. qualify that welders to max 30 mm thickness range. 

--

https://materials-welding.blogspot.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/122787
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[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

This is from AWS D1.1-2015

THANKS & BEST REGARDS,

KG.PANDITHAN, BE, IWE,  CSWIP 3.1,

ASNT-Level II in PT,MT,RT & UT.

International Welding Engineer. 

CONSULTANT-WELDING & QUALITY

Mobile no: +919940739349

[Ramesh]

Hi 

shakin thobias

 

1. Please refer AWS D1.1 , Part C for performance qualification requirements.

Range of qualifications - pl refer Table 4.10 & 4.11

 

2. Combination of WPS is allowed as per 3.6.1  This is applicable for both qualified or prequalified WPS.[ Screen shot from 2015 edition as below ]

Also refer OLD AWS interpretation as below [ 1984 edition]

Thanks and Regards

Rameshkannan Devaraj

"What you have learned is a mere handful; What you haven't learned is the size of the world – Avvaiyar"

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 10:06 AM Nithin Joseph <nithind...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nithin Joseph]

Dear Mr. Rameshkanna,

Note that clause 3.6.1 clearly states independent PQR's may be combined and does not state WPS's can be made from the combination PQR.

[Ramesh]

Hi Nithin,

i am unable to find the word " independent PQR's may be combined " in above clause

i presume, this clause does not say about PQRs, Only your final WPS ( which may have single supporting PQRs or process or combined PQRs or process) 

These qualified WPSs can be combined  without combination and within limitations of each process ( refer last two para carefully ) 

i understand from response that, suppose if an PQR have with combination process ( Ex.TIG+SMAW)  , u are interpreting that preparing Two separate WPS ( one for TIG & one for SMAW)  is not allowed as per D1.1. right ? 

or, Pl explain your interpretation of above 3.6.1 clause.  

Thanks and Regards

Rameshkannan Devaraj

"What you have learned is a mere handful; What you haven't learned is the size of the world – Avvaiyar"

[Nithin Joseph]

Hi,

my interpretation of the clause 3.6.1 is as follows;

A combination of, QUALIFIED and PREQUALIFIED WPS'S   = I interpret this as either qualified WPS+qualified WPS, Qualified+Prequalified or Prequalified+Prequalified. 

..may be used without any requalification for the combination.

So it nowhere states that existing qualified combinations can be split into 2 separate WPS's.

Above is my interpretation, 

[munee...@gmail.com]

When it said ''A combination of qualified and prequalified WPSs may be used without qualification of combination''   it means it is very clear that the combination of multiple qualified or pre qualified WPSs can be used if the limitation of essential variables applicable to each process is observed. 

So PQR has nothing to do here.

But whether AWS D1.1 allows Multiple WPSs With One PQR/Multiple PQRs With One WPS? 

Regards,

Muneeb.M

---

[Ramesh]

Hi

 

If you see both ASME (QW-200.4) & AWS (Clause 3.6.1) on combination of weld procedures , both code does not talk about PQRs. Only the final WPS ( Each WPS may include

one or a combination of processes, filler metals, or other variables. )

 

Ø  AWS provide is simple explanation in this regard than ASME

Ø  Both codes does not talk about separation of PQRs ( combination is important than separation)

Combination of WPS/ PQRs may NOT be already welded earlier, but separation is done for the already welded process, it is not important criteria, I believe)

 

 (Under ) QW-200.2 – ASME

 

 

(Under pre-qualified) C-3.7 General WPS Requirements - AWS

 

In summary, Both codes  have intention to combine  WPS/PQR provided all the essential variables for each process is meeting the limitations specified which results successful production welds either with combination or Separation. 

Thanks and Regards

Rameshkannan Devaraj

"What you have learned is a mere handful; What you haven't learned is the size of the world – Avvaiyar"

[Nithin Joseph]

Hi just to be sure we are not diverting away from the topic.

The question was "whether separate WPS's can be written from a multi process PQR."

ASME is very clear when it comes to deriving processes separately in a WPS from a multi process PQR.

However if you refer AWS D1.1, nothing is stated with respect to the same. When it is not stated, then it cannot be followed. 

[Ramesh]

Hi 

ASME allows use of combination process to weld  coupon, does AWS D1.1 allows same ? 

if yes, pl provide AWS clause reference for my understanding. 

ASME reference here ( under QW-200.2 ) 

if not, i understand that  then welding test coupon with multi process itself  not allowed as per AWS D1.1.?

Thanks and Regards

Rameshkannan Devaraj

"What you have learned is a mere handful; What you haven't learned is the size of the world – Avvaiyar"

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Let us not confuse ourself. It is clearly mentioned that we can combine  different WPS within the limitation.

THANKS & BEST REGARDS,

KG.PANDITHAN, BE, IWE,  CSWIP 3.1,

ASNT-Level II in PT,MT,RT & UT.

International Welding Engineer. 

CONSULTANT-WELDING & QUALITY

Mobile no: +919940739349

[munee...@gmail.com]

Greatly explained and i do not disagree, but with below limitations and correction.

If you see both ASME (QW-200.4) & AWS (Clause 3.6.1) on combination of weld procedures , both code does not talk about PQRs. Only the final WPS ( Each WPS may include

one or a combination of processes, filler metals, or other variables. )

Reply: Agreed and you are right in comparing both and saying stringently that both do not speak about PQRs but indirectly allowing to combine even PQRs, may be you are right in saying for AWS D1.1, but not for ASME IX because ASME clears in QW-200.2 (F) saying that Multiple WPSs With One PQR/Multiple PQRs With One WPS. Several WPSs may be prepared from the data on a single PQR, so it means directly extraction is allowed whether it maybe for combination or for any other purpose but the bottom line is PQR has mandated here, but whereas 200.4 from ASME and 3.6.1 clause are typical for combination of process within WPSs.

Ø  AWS provide is simple explanation in this regard than ASME

Ø  Both codes does not talk about separation of PQRs ( combination is important than separation)

Combination of WPS/ PQRs may NOT be already welded earlier, but separation is done for the already welded process, it is not important criteria, I believe)

 (Under ) QW-200.2 – ASME / (Under pre-qualified) C-3.7 General WPS Requirements - AWS

Reply: QW-200.2-does speaks about PQR, when its said multiple PQR means you are extracting a separation or joining different processes of combination, so it means ASME IX is clear in the separation or extraction from PQR or WPSs.

Now coming to conclusion, though AWS D1.1 does not speak clearly as ASME IX, but still the bottom line is within the limits of essential variable, so it means a well learned man will understand that it is acceptable to take the extraction or separation or joining of different processes / combination from PQR, when he already allowed WPSs and it will be same for PQR as we have to use within the limits of essential variables.

Regards,

Muneeb.M