Criticism of This Forum

[Derek McGovern]

I was surprised to read some rather pointed criticism of this forum on
the Jeff Rense site yesterday. Alluding to several of our members
(myself included!), the poster -- a delightful, erudite fellow with
whom I've often exchanged e-mails -- criticized "people who say they
are Lanza fans," but who in fact are harder on his singing than the
critics. Such people, he wrote, spend too much time on "super-
technical" analysis of Mario's recordings, dissecting how he "sang this
note or that phrase." He went on to write that, "When I read some of
these note-by-note dissections, I think to myself, 'If I were this
critical of a singer, I'd throw away my records and take up basket
weaving.' " What we should instead be doing when listening to Lanza or
any other singer, he implied, was to react "strictly on the basis of
how their performance moves [us] emotionally."

I couldn't disagree more with all of the above! This would be a boring
forum indeed if none of us wanted to pinpoint what it was about a
particular Lanza performance that impressed us -- or disappointed us,
for that matter. And inevitably that kind of discussion *will* involve
talking about the man's phrasing or how he sang a particular note --
or whether the arrangement hindered or enhanced the performance. To
avoid saying, for example, that a certain high note was strained or
spectacular (as the case may be), or that a particular phrase was
poetically rendered, would leave us with virtually nothing to write
but generalities ("This performance is exciting," "This performance
leaves me cold," etc). Limited to *that* kind of tedious discussion,
we'd run out of things to talk about on this forum in a month.
Besides, if the only criterion when evaluating a performance is the
subjective issue of how it affects one emotionally, then even the
worst of the Lanza on Broadway album could be declared magnificent by
the tone-deaf on the basis that it somehow "moves" them.

Talk about dumbing down discussion!!

But I don't feel that any of us "dissects" Lanza's recordings to the
extent that's being claimed. I also feel it's very unfair to suggest
that by acknowledging the flaws in some of Lanza's recordings (or even
the downright bad performances in his legacy) that we're somehow
beating up on the man. We're simply being honest. Whether a recording
is great or bad, many of us here will unhesitatingly say so -- and
just as importantly we're prepared to say *why*. On such subjective
issues such as interpretation, style, arrangement, etc, we may well
disagree -- and at the same time feel free to do so without fear of
being branded a musical moron -- but isn't that part of the fun of
being on a discussion forum such as this? Goodness knows there's
(weirdly) little in-depth analysis of Mario's actual singing on the
other forums or in most of the Lanza biographies.

As a teenager discovering Lanza and thrilling to his voice, the one
thing I wanted to do was meet kindred spirits who equally delighted in
discussing his singing -- not in a once-over-lightly fashion, but
*meaningfully*. 30 years on, nothing has changed. And it turns out
that I'm in grand company, for Lanza himself delighted in such
discussions of the singers whom *he* admired, as George London once
reminisced. (If Mario thought, for example, that Caruso's B-flat on
the Flower Song was faulty, then he had no hesitation in saying so,
irrespective of his adoration for the man.) I actually think that
Lanza would have enjoyed reading many of the discussions here!

My bottom line: I'm proud of this forum and the way its members have
elevated discussion on Lanza to a new level. And I have no intention
of taking up basket-weaving either! :-)

[Vince Di Placido]

Absolutely spot on, Derek! I have always longed for meaningful
discussion with other admirers of Mario & this forum is the only place
I have found it. Part of the enjoyment of music, or anything else for
that matter, is being able to talk it out & discuss exactly what it is
that I like, in fact it makes me enjoy it all the more. & you are so
right to be proud of this forum.

On Oct 29, 4:56 am, Derek McGovern <derek.mcgov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was surprised to read some rather pointed criticism of this forum on
> the Jeff Rense site yesterday. Alluding to several of our members
> (myself included!), the poster -- a delightful, erudite fellow with
> whom I've often exchanged e-mails -- criticized "people who say they
> are Lanza fans," but who in fact are harder on his singing than the
> critics. Such people, he wrote, spend too much time on "super-

> technical" analysis of Lanza's recording, dissecting how he "sang this

> note or that phrase." He went on to write that, "When I read some of
> these note-by-note dissections, I think to myself, 'If I were this
> critical of a singer, I'd throw away my records and take up basket
> weaving.' " What we should instead be doing when listening to Lanza or
> any other singer, he implied, was to react "strictly on the basis of
> how their performance moves [us] emotionally."
>
> I couldn't disagree more with all of the above! This would be a boring
> forum indeed if none of us wanted to pinpoint what it was about a
> particular Lanza performance that impressed us -- or disappointed us,
> for that matter. And inevitably that kind of discussion *will* involve
> talking about the man's phrasing or how he sang a particular note --
> or whether the arrangement hindered or enhanced the performance. To
> avoid saying, for example, that a certain high note was strained or
> spectacular (as the case may be), or that a particular phrase was
> poetically rendered, would leave us with virtually nothing to write
> but generalities ("This performance is exciting", "This performance

> leaves me cold", etc). Limited to *that* kind of tedious discussion,

> we'd run out of things to talk about on this forum in a month.
> Besides, if the only criterion when evaluating a performance is the
> subjective issue of how it affects one emotionally, then even the
> worst of the Lanza on Broadway album could be declared magnificent by
> the tone-deaf on the basis that it somehow "moves" them.
>
> Talk about dumbing down discussion!!
>
> But I don't feel that any of us "dissects" Lanza's recordings to the
> extent that's being claimed. I also feel it's very unfair to suggest
> that by acknowledging the flaws in some of Lanza's recordings (or even
> the downright bad performances in his legacy) that we're somehow
> beating up on the man. We're simply being honest. Whether a recording
> is great or bad, many of us here will unhesitatingly say so -- and
> just as importantly we're prepared to say *why*. On such subjective
> issues such as interpretation, style, arrangement, etc, we may well
> disagree -- and at the same time feel free to do so without fear of
> being branded a musical moron -- but isn't that part of the fun of
> being on a discussion forum such as this? Goodness knows there's

> (weirdly) little in-depth analysis of Lanza's actual singing on the

[Lover of Grand Voices]

Derek and Vince, you are absolutely correct. This forum is by far the
best place to discuss Lanza in depth and to really appreciate the
quality of his work. How else can you approach a subject that conveys
such emotion like a great interpreter of opera and popular music like
Mario? Moreover, look at the work that you have assembled in this
forum that recounts Lanza's life and catalogs his achievements.

Objectivity brings out greatness and brings with it thorns and roses.
The life of any great performer has moments of frustration and ecstasy
and Mario's was a remarkable example. Those who participate in this
forum are people who appreciate the best and the brightest because
they see it from the proper and most interesting perspectives.

Derek, I have prepared another essay about Lanza. Please tell me how
to send it to the forum/

Warm regards

Emilio

[Muriel]

I have no desire to weave baskets!! What a dull and solitary thing
that would be! I'd miss the comments of those who are also interested
in Mario Lanza's music. He is the common denominator here, the one
whose singing has touched us in positive and lasting ways.

The fact that we go into detail shows our respect and fascination with
his artistry. I cannot think of one other person I'd spend any time
discussing. He simply is worth whatever we can give to make sure his
legacy is never forgotten.

Mario, of course, was up and down on the excellence scale and that
makes him all the more interesting and/or curious. The fact that we
note his less than perfect recordings doesn't mean we are beating on
him. We are showing our concern as to why he might have had a bad day.

I don't know much about arrangements, composers' wishes, conductors,
etc. but I'm sure that all had some degree of importance. I love
reading the critiques and reasons from our musical gurus! I say,
"Please continue!" If people aren't concerned, then they won't read.
Nicht wahr???

A few times I've read that my essays on songs have been appreciated.
Sometimes a person loves a song, but does not know why and I might
fill in some insight for them. That's wonderful to know and I am
thankful I can help in a small way with his puzzle.

So I am contented to be here. I hope others will read and learn, for
learning should never stop. I simply do not fit in with the other
forums' agendas. Mario is worth every bit of our attention. He was a
phenomenon who was with us for too short a time. Let's examine each
facet of his talent if it pleases us and let's give him his rightful
due. I'll never stop being amazed by him!!!!!

Ciao ciao!! Muriel

> > of taking up basket-weaving either! :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Ann-Mai]

I enjoy very much reading our posters’ thoughts and analyses of
Mario’s various interpretations of songs and arias. And of cause those
of other singers too.
Listening to different singers, I find that "the perfect rendition" is
rather rare - Mario however, imo, had quite a few of them. But no one
is perfect, neither was Mario. More often a rendition has some
particular notes or phrases which are excellent, exciting and
noteworthy while other notes or phrases somehow don’t seem to work
quite as well. This, of cause, doesn’t necessarily mean the overall
rendition can’t be enjoyable and exciting. Some renditions can be
quite thrilling even though minor things could have been improved. But
it often makes me wonder exactly why it is that a particular approach
seems to work better than others, so for my part, I find it extremely
interesting to read different viewpoints as to which details does the
trick and which that doesn’t and of cause why.

Most of my life, I have 'just' been enjoying listening to music,
without giving the details and more technical parts of it much
thought. Opera and classical music has always been my preferred kind
of music, but growing up I was alone in liking it - none of my friends
liked opera, and some of the kids in school used to make fun of me for
having a mom who sang opera, so I was quite embarrassed about my "out"
musical preferences and therefore never really shared my thoughts on
music with anyone. My current friends still doesn’t like opera, so I
am very happy to have found some people online who do, and who are
willing to discuss it.

Having English as a second language, and being as good as self-taught
in writing in English, I often find it very difficult to express my
opinion on the music discussed, and of cause having no particular
knowledge about singing doesn’t make it any easier. lol But I do find
it very educational and mind broadening to follow the discussions on
this forum and occasionally participate in some of them. Like Vince
said, it makes me appreciate the music even more, not to say
acknowledge just how difficult it actually is to do a great
performance.

An outstanding performance, I understand, depends on many various
factors coming together in perfect harmony e.g. the musical
arrangement, the current state of the voice and perhaps the state of
body and mind too, the amount of practise spent and the understanding
of the piece in question, etc. plus of cause the x factor part - the
emotional expression. Although an in-depth discussion of a song can
seem dissecting and sometimes critical, I think a focus on the details
of the performance can add so much more to the enjoyment of music and
enhance our understanding both of the actual piece of music and of the
artist.

Derek, you have a wonderful forum here with lots of knowledgeable and
thoughtful members and you do a fantastic job mastering it. I am
especially impressed by, and happy, that it is a malice-free forum. It
is soooo important that people feel they can express their opinions
freely without fearing being met with condescending or spiteful
remarks. I can’t thank you enough for the enormous job you are doing.

[Jan Hodges]

Don't worry about the criticism Derek. This forum is just the way we like it so don't change. If any one on the Rense forum is reading this..it is simply because we love and appreciate the magnitude of Mario's vocal gifts that we can point out where he sometimes falls short ,for whatever reason, of what he was truly capable of. Mario was not an avatar but a human being full of shortcomings and contradictions like the rest of us. What did set him apart was the stellar quality of his singing. At his best he was untouchable. I am sure he never meant for some of the Coke show recordings he made to be published after his untimely death. Had he been able I am sure he would have edited them. There are some knowledgable musicians here who like to discuss the finer points of singing and artistry and discuss why we like some particular recording or other rather than just be "chatty" . We are grateful to Derek for all the work he has done in running this forum and for all the files, freely available to all, that are in the archives. Regards  Jan

[Armando]

Derek: I find the suggestion that one should react to a singer
“strictly on the basis of how their performance moves [us]
emotionally,” simplistic to say the least.

Quite apart from the voice quality and the singer’s individual
approach to a song or an aria, there are many factors that contribute
to making a singer’s performance either memorable or less so.
Phrasing, musical line, tempi, arrangements, are all of paramount
importance. Most of all, however, is the choice of the man responsible
to bring it all together – that is the conductor. Just as in a play or
a film the ultimate responsibility for the final outcome rests with
the director so does the result of a musical performance rest with the
man on the podium.

If it were merely a question of waving the baton while the singer sang
and the orchestra played, then there would be no distinction between a
great conductor and a second rate one. Anyone that knows anything
about music is aware of this.

To say that the conducting on many of Lanza’s operatic recordings is
less than brilliant is an understatement. All one needs to do is
compare it (on the same arias) with that of any of the major
conductors to realise the difference, provided, of course, one has
some sort of idea of what conducting is all about.

It’s not a question of being hypercritical of a specific performance,
but simply of being able to distinguish great from mediocre and
inferior.

If the erudite fellow you mentioned thinks that by analysing each aria
and song we are being super analytical, so be it. It’s preferable, by
far, than having a bunch of morons describing everything that Lanza
sang as superlative and even raving about a dismal failure such as the
Broadway album.

In summing up, I think it’s vastly preferable to be critical than
musically deaf.

Asked to explain to what he attributed Bocelli’s great success, one
reviewer answered,
“ It’s a question of the blind leading the deaf! ”

[gary from N.S.]

Hello folks,

I need to think this out loud.."I react to singers strictly on the
basis of how their performance moves me emotionally. I do not dissect
their singing..etc."

I don't recall the very first time I heard Lanza sing,and of course I
don't recall what Lanza song was the first I heard.We are talking some
50+ years ago.But, in trying to reach back over half a century, I
recall falling in love with Mario's "voice".
I perceived this "voice" as the most beautiful male singing voice, I
had ever heard.

On hearing his voice coming from the living room of our house,when my
Dad played his music, I soon became enamoured.
Finally around the time I was 12 or so, I would actually begin to play
Mario's music on my own.

Oh, how I remember the thrill of hearing Song Of India, for the first
time. The man's resonant,clearly heard,golden singing voice,with words
that wrapped about my brain, allowing my imagination to paint, or
picture each "scene" of Mario's words.

I pictured the snow topped Himalayas,the Ganges shining in the
moonlight while silently moving.

Now his voice sings out with power and beauty "THEN I hear the song
that only India can sing"..the power of his voice takes me to another
place..more pictures appear vividly..

I am standing atop a minaret,and see in the distance,across the
dessert sand (the heat shimmering in waves..I see it,and feel it. ..a
Maharajah's caravan..small in a single file,camels and their
riders..Then his voice even stronger and more beautiful. invokes the
scene as he sings "SEE them on PARADE across the AGES, Armies,Kings
and slaves from histories pages." this phrase,this sound,the strength
to the words,all come together and give me goosebumps..

A flashback and seeing history's pages over this land..Armies,Kings,
and slaves..its like a wide screen technicolor movie from the early
fifties,colours rich and bright,and these figures dressed in finery..

Then into the streets, busy with beggars wrapped in turbans,and the
holy men quietly in prayer..

"A lonely plane flies off to meet the dawn"..yes I pictured that so
easily ..a plane like the old TCA passenger two prop. we flew in 1951
from Winnipeg to Toronto..with wing tip lights, flashing against the
dark of the sky,and I see the plane slowly taxi and then lift off..and
in the distant horizon the sun is slowly lighting the sky..

But down,below on the ground in the early morning,women dressed in
brightly coloured saris crowd the old bazaars..

All these pictures, like a mosaic,of a mysterious country,come to life
in the mind of a very young man...

INDIA,the jewel of the East....another goosebump phrase,and the end of
the song..this piece of music so exciting,so strong,so tender..Mario
allowed me to paint these pictures,while his voice acted as the
guide,the instructor,the canvas itself.

This is how I felt, and interpretted this wonderful song as a very
young person. I wasn't sitting listening and waiting to be emoted..No,
I listened,and heard the clearly sung words,and heard the perfect
intonations on words sung strongly,or quietly. So, I would say, I was
in fact dissecting this song. I was getting goosebumps at certain
wonderful notes.I listened to each word,carefully.I listened like a
new student,to each and every note.
I was in fact learning how to really listen to a voice. Mario taught
me this procedure,many years ago. It just happens that this particular
song has always been one of my favourite Lanza songs.
But, I have done this same type of dissecting on likely every Mario
song, or aria, I have ever listend too.
There are a number, where I heard terrible notes,straining,sharpness,
or simply below par singing. So what. Mario had bad days,like all we
mortals.

By "dissecting" his music, and discussing the same, I would say the
bulk of his music legacy gives us great satisfaction and more.

My point is, as a very young man, Mario himself turned me into a
person, who tries to be discerning with singing voices. Well,that
discernment applies to Mario, as well as any other singer, I chose to
listen to.
Mario, gave me the yardstick, by which I measure all male singers.

I do not have the music background to tell you one note from
another,but I have good ears,and I believe I am a good judge of
voices. (as subjective as that may be). Certainly singers strike a
persons emotions, but there is much more to the art of singing than an
emotional impact.

Derek, provides in this forum, a place, where many people, from many
differant professions, and backgrounds can hold fair,reasonable,and
knowledgable discussions. I learn here,simple as that.
If that means we must look at notes,phrasing, or any other
criteria,that does not mean we are not fans.
Quite the contrary in my opinion.We are better fans than most,since we
take the time to really look and listen.

Cheers
Gary

[gary from N.S.]

Oops..dessert sand..no..how about desert sand..I never much cared to
eat dessert sand,much too dry..cheers

On Oct 29, 11:18 pm, "gary from N.S." <gmaid...@ns.sympatico.ca>
wrote:

[Michele]

Hi Derek,
Yes you are right, I stuffed up again but now know what to do in the
future. If you don't mind will repeat what I sent
you:
I couldn't agree with you more. I've not been on line now for a couple
of weeks and have just read your post with
great glee. Having been a fan of Mario since I was 9 yrs old I have to
say while he made some wonderful recordings
he also made some that were just awful. In fact I don't understand
why he didn't re-do some of the, some he
shouldn't have recorded at all in my opinion. Have been on the Rense
site and read D.W.'s post and have come to
the conclusion that he has tin ears. One cannot say that all of
Mario's recordings are perfect, but his really superb
ones are as Jan says untouchable. This site is the best and it is
different to the others in that we can discuss Mario's
singing as we do. And as I said in my post to you Derek I'm glad you
are not taking up basket weaving!!!
Hello Gary, I just have to comment on your post re: Song of India -
all I can say is I wish I'd written what you did.
That song has always appealed to me but only when Mario sings it.
Somehow he creates and incredible atmosphere
that I cannot recall anyone doing in any similar song. Whether it's
the arrangement, of the words or the way he sings
it, I don't know, but I just love it. Have heard it sung as written in
the Opera and it's quite boring, despite the lovely music. Nice to
hear from you too.
Michele

[gary from N.S.]

Hi Michele,..glad you are back online. Yes, I agree with you on Song
Of India..its' Mario's rendition of this song,and Mario's only that
strikes me in the way described.
Cheers
Gary

[Vince Di Placido]

Hi, Gary! What a beautiful post & so close to my own reaction to this
recording when I used to listen to it as a wee boy & even now as a big
boy :-)
Mario paints pictures with his music like a great master, Song of
India is a masterpiece! I was just listening to the Student Prince
"Serenade" a few minutes ago & Mario's sense of phrasing & his
gorgeous voice creates a beautiful, evocative scene & mood that lets
us drift along for a sublime few minutes, musical perfection!

> > “ It’s a question of the blind leading the deaf! ”- Hide quoted text -

[Derek McGovern]

I agree, Vince: that was a great post from Gary on what's one of my
favourite recordings as well.

But who would have thought that this subject (which I'm now regretting
I didn't entitle "Dissection versus Basket-Weaving" :-)) would inspire
so many other equally terrific posts?! I've just re-read the entire
thread, and was struck anew by the intelligence & eloquence of the
posters here. From Armando's astute observations on the vital
importance of the conductor to Gary's poetic "dissection", you've all
blown me away.

Hearty thanks to everyone!

[Aline staires]

Hi Gary: There is a misconception in Western Canada that Easterners have no imagination... You have just proven them sooo wrong!!!!  Bravo!!!    -------Original Message-------   From: Thelma Date: 30/10/2008 8:47:20 PM To: The Mario Lanza Forum Subject: Re: Criticism of This Forum     "Song of India" has always been one of my favorites with Mario singing it.  I think a song is more powerful to you if you understand it's parts (dissection).  This song does make you dream about a far away land which is beautiful, dreamy, and visions begin to form in your head and you are in the land of your dreams.  The lyrics were written by Johnny Mercer from Savannah, Ga. a very gifted lyric writer and also a gifted singer.  He wrote the lyrics to Moon River and many other songs which might be familiar to you, such as G.I. Jive, Accentuate the Positive, Personality.  But I'm getting off the subject here.

[gary from N.S.]

Hi folks.. I am thrilled to get such a response..thanks everyone so
very much.
Aline..I was born in Winnipeg,grew up in Toronto (Upper Canada)haha
and came to the east six years ago..so I consider myself a
"westerner",raised in T.O. and transplanted to N.S. where I am startin
ta talk just likem here whaa!
Cheers
Gary

[Derek McGovern]

Hi Ann-Mai: I meant to respond earlier to a comment you made in this
thread about English not being your first language: frankly, you write
better than a lot of native English speakers I know! (And remember
that I teach English for a living :-)) Actually, I'm always amazed by
the quality of writing that our non-native English speakers produce
here; we seem to have attracted some of the brightest musical minds in
the Lanza world, not just from the European continent, but from the
Philippines as well!

[Ann-Mai]

Thanks Derek, it’s sweet of you to say so. But I assure you, my posts
wouldn’t make much sense if it weren’t for spellchecker programs. As I
attack words phonetically, one of my big challenges is to avoid the
witch/which pitfall. :-))

> > > of taking up basket-weaving either! :-)- Skjul tekst i anførselstegn -
>
> - Vis tekst i anførselstegn -