Fixed Motorways Signage

[Jabran]

I see the motorway signage is fixed for map maker and google earth. but they still are not fixed for google maps.  Link to this page Thanks

However, highways signage is still missing the hyphen between alpha-numeric values. Also Team, can you please let us know that to till which date this new data push was done for gEarth & gMaps?

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

[Jabran]

That must had been a very good day indeed. Urdu font  has also been fixed for map maker. Great work!! thanks

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/18 Jabran <jabran...@gmail.com>

[Jabran]

I think I should write down and make a list of updates.. :) I had always been thinking to ask to make appearance of map data on map maker similar to google maps and its been done as well.. come on guys.. bring up the list of updates..

[momers]

Hmmm cool!

On Jan 18, 6:25 am, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I should write down and make a list of updates.. :) I had always
> been thinking to ask to make appearance of map data on map maker similar to
> google maps and its been done as well.. come on guys.. bring up the list of
> updates..
>
> Regards,
> جabran
>
> ==============
> Long Live Pakistan!
>

> 2010/1/18 Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com>

>
> > That must had been a very good day indeed. Urdu font  has also been fixed
> > for map maker. Great work!! thanks
>
> > Regards,
> > جabran
>
> > ==============
> > Long Live Pakistan!
>

> > 2010/1/18 Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com>

>
> > I see the motorway signage is fixed for map maker and google earth. but

> >> they still are not fixed for google maps.  Link to this page<http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0...>
> >>  Thanks
> >> <http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0...>However,

[momers]

btw the Urdu character ٔ is still not working....

this character can be reached by pressing ALT - U on the CRULP v1.1
urdu keyboard. Its a HAMZA on top of the alphabet WAO, character
reached by pressing W on the urdu keyboard i mention.

On Jan 18, 6:20 am, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That must had been a very good day indeed. Urdu font  has also been fixed
> for map maker. Great work!! thanks
>
> Regards,
> جabran
>
> ==============
> Long Live Pakistan!
>

> 2010/1/18 Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com>

>
> > I see the motorway signage is fixed for map maker and google earth. but

> > they still are not fixed for google maps.  Link to this page<http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0...>
> >  Thanks

> > <http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0...>However,

[Jabran]

Where did you see it not working still? Can you please post the
example? I checked almost every known place with this issue and the
Urdu font was rendered fine..

Regards,
جabran

-----------------------
Sent from iPhone

[momers]

look at garden town and model town and any other town place named in
urdu. also look at cavalry ground in lahore.

[Jabran]

I use the same keyboard and its fine in Gujranwala Model Town or any Town name etc. But I have noticed nowthat where I used the MAC urdu keyboard there is still problem in rendering such as Cricket Ground in Satellite Town in Gujranwala.. I have to update i think..

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/18 momers <mom...@gmail.com>

[momers]

Any one visited any one the new Express Ways in Pakistan operated by
NHA and named E-1, E-2, E-3, E-4, E-5 etc

do they have distinct signage of their own? any photos any one?

[momers]

Jabran the reason you see it fixed in Gujranwala Model Town is because
you are using the wrong diacritic!

You are using the KHARI ZABAR instead of the HAMZA which I am using.
Alt-U gives you HAMZA but what you have used is SHIFT-E which gives
you KHARI ZABAR.

I copy pasted your text from mapmaker to MS WORD and this is what i
got: ماڈل ٹاوٰن

From Model Town Lahore where I had entered the urdu text this is what
i get: ماڈل ٹاؤن

You can see the difference yourself. And that is the difference when i
say Alt-U character rendering is not fixed though Alt-U character
appears fine in MS Word.

I guess that for some characters the problem is still not solved.

Can some language expert from google help explain this?

On Jan 18, 3:56 pm, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jabran]

Hmm correct. I in fact didn't check it in larger font size. And yes we
want this to be fixed please!! I've to rewrite the names for many
features.. :/

Regards,
جabran

-----------------------
Sent from iPhone

[Jabran]

I'll check for it too. E-3 passes by my place but until 2007 I didn't
see any signage for this road, even not mentioned on road signs that
it's an expressway.. But I'll ask, maybe there are changes in 3 years.

Regards,
جabran

-----------------------
Sent from iPhone

>>> http://www.google.com/mapmaker?
>>> ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0
>>>>>>> ...>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> <
>>> http://www.google.com/mapmaker?
>>> ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0

[Faraz Ahmad فراز احمد‎]

I visited E-3 intersection in Wazirabad and i was nothing more then a single carriage way. but with a better quality. 
Faraz Ahmad فراز احمد
http://farazilu.blogspot.com

[Jabran]

Yes, it is like that. Nowhere near to any highway standard or something. I think they only use the name expressway because it makes a express path/shortcut in other words.

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/20 Faraz Ahmad فراز احمد <fara...@gmail.com>

[KA]

> can you please let us know that to till which date this new data
> push was done for gEarth & gMaps?

I think it was to pick the "Lahore Sargodha Road" that was missed
during the last data push :D I noticed this change so far.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Sheikhupura,+Pakistan&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.957536,93.076172&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sheikhupura,+Punjab,+Pakistan&ll=31.712507,73.974767&spn=0.024241,0.045447&z=15

Any ways. I have a question.
May be you guys feel it a kind of funny or some thing :P but I really
wanted to ask about the Highway Signs.
- How actually Google Maps or Mapmaker or Earth is told to show a
specific image for a Sign?
- Like we just tell the MapMaker that M2 or N5 as a Numbered Highway
in Type Attribute and it shows two different type of Signs on them.
- However I am even not sure if the Sign is picked/generated according
to this Type Attribute because I have seen on some interchanges that
it shows a sign even there is no Numbered Highway in the Type
Attribute.
So I am just curious to know about it. how it all works.

Can any one explain please :P

Thanks
Regards
KA

On Jan 18, 6:04 am, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I see the motorway signage is fixed for map maker and google earth. but they
> still are not fixed for google maps.  Link to this

> page<http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0...>
>  Thanks
> <http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0...>However,

> highways signage is still missing the hyphen between alpha-numeric values.
> Also Team,
>

[Jabran]

It depends upon road priority however before the Numbered Highway option was introduced then it was forced to display somehow. Where you may see the mix up still, those are the place need fix in attributes etc. ;) The update is quite new because I see where I was at that time. I was in middle of N-25 and Samundari Road in Faisalabad which tells me a date in mid of Nov 09. ;)

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/21 KA <khur...@gmail.com>

[momers]

were you asking how they got to know which signs to put?

If so then last year i uploaded photos and sketches of the motorway
and highway signage for the google guys to see and copy. We basically
told google team what to do.

On Jan 21, 5:56 am, KA <khurra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > can you please let us know that to till which date this new data
> > push was done for gEarth & gMaps?
>
> I think it was to pick the "Lahore Sargodha Road" that was missed

> during the last data push :D I noticed this change so far.http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Sheikhupu...

> > Ìabran
>
> > ==============
> > Long Live Pakistan!

[KA]

Exactly It was about that.

So that means, for example if I create a road with a Numbered Highway
in Type e.g. "N-1000", let suppose it's a valid road. So the Sign for
it will not be added right away when I create the road. or even when
the road gets rendered. but the Google Guys will manually update it
and assign a proper Imaged Sign to the road.
Correct?

Regards
KA

[Jabran]

No! whatever you choose in numbered highway option but the signage will only appear when its selected a priority of primary highway or higher. Because lower roads tend not to have a road code but in some cases they do such as in UK, where secondary roads (B Roads) have code name of Bxxx where x is a numeric.

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/21 KA <khur...@gmail.com>

[KA]

OK, one point cleared about the priority have to be alteast Primary
Highway.
but after that what is the second condition? if there is.
- Who chooses and appends the Labels of Signs to the Roads?
Is momers right about it, what he explained?. I think I got pretty
much about it that we give it only a name like N-5 while creating the
road and Google Guys do the other work to properly append the actual
Imaged Signs to the roads but the MapMaker software doesn't do it
automatically right after when we create roads. am I really understood
correctly?

Thanks
Regards
KA.

On Jan 22, 5:43 am, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No! whatever you choose in numbered highway option but the signage will only
> appear when its selected a priority of primary highway or higher. Because
> lower roads tend not to have a road code but in some cases they do such as
> in UK, where secondary roads (B Roads) have code name of Bxxx where x is a
> numeric.
>
> Regards,
> جabran
>
> ==============
> Long Live Pakistan!
>

> 2010/1/21 KA <khurra...@gmail.com>

[Jabran]

No. Its software which is set to adobt the provided/designated sinage for each type of road in each country. However, sometimes where there is no designated signage set then it will show up with the standard rectangular box. Omer actually gave the information and a sample design for both road types (Motorways & Highways) as set by NHA. Then we all went with him in requesting to update the signage for both road types which now atlast are done. But still we have a Hyphen missing in Highways and no fix at all for E & S type roads which apparently come under primary highway. Now at this point this makes another point that only roads starting with E & S are still not following the rules set by software and hence not showing up the bounding boxes representing them as highways. We still are not aware of signage of these road types.

E-3 example : Link to this page

N-5 example: Link to this page

To only make this fix and align the major roads, me and Faraz started the major road work on highways and motorways where we aligned the highways and motorways and also have been updating the highway codes with an attributes of Numbered Highway. The result is now very outstanding for us. 

PS. Major road rework still not completed yet as few highways in NWFP remain to fix. Probably will kick off in a week or so..

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/22 KA <khur...@gmail.com>

[KA]

Great! thanks Jabran and Omer that clarifies it completely.

but wait
http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&fll=31.746216,74.010966&fr=0.000365,0.000429&mpp=1.015638&gw=39&ll=31.746699,74.011524&spn=0.005702,0.01193&t=h&z=17&iwloc=0_0&fid=4114252805532789203:3189148592028062063

This is what I talked about earlier, The Exit Ramp from the M-2 to
Sheikhupura Interchange, It also shows the Sign of M-2 even it has not
been set with any Numbered Highway attribute. what about it? how the
Sign gets on this road? and how the MapMaker decided to print M-2 on
the Sign? while there is no mention about it in the feature detail.

Regards
KA.

On Jan 22, 6:06 am, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> No. Its software which is set to adobt the provided/designated sinage for
> each type of road in each country. However, sometimes where there is no
> designated signage set then it will show up with the standard rectangular
> box. Omer actually gave the information and a sample design for both road
> types (Motorways & Highways) as set by NHA. Then we all went with him in
> requesting to update the signage for both road types which now atlast are
> done. But still we have a Hyphen missing in Highways and no fix at all for E
> & S type roads which apparently come under primary highway. Now at this
> point this makes another point that only roads starting with E & S are still
> not following the rules set by software and hence not showing up the
> bounding boxes representing them as highways. We still are not aware of
> signage of these road types.
>
> E-3 example : Link to this

> page<http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&q=mansurwali&gw=30&ll=32.370642,...>

> N-5 example: Link to this

> page<http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&fll=32.39982,74.124069&fr=0.0028...>

>
> To only make this fix and align the major roads, me and Faraz started the
> major road work on highways and motorways where we aligned the highways and
> motorways and also have been updating the highway codes with an attributes
> of Numbered Highway. The result is now very outstanding for us.
>
> PS. Major road rework still not completed yet as few highways in NWFP remain
> to fix. Probably will kick off in a week or so..
>
> Regards,
> جabran
>
> ==============
> Long Live Pakistan!
>

> 2010/1/22 KA <khurra...@gmail.com>

[Jabran]

It is because its an extended part of motorway. ;) You can see similar examples in N-5 at various gas/petrol stations where small entrance/exit ramp exist as extension of N-5. I have examples near Wazirabad Bypass.

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/22 KA <khur...@gmail.com>

[momers]

Yes and NO!

So you have to first assign the category Numbered Highway to the road.

Any road name which is called Numbered Highway AND has a weirdo name
like N-5 or M-2 (or any other combo found abroad) will be rendered in
a Box/Polygon/Signage.

Numbered highway category didn't exist a year or so back and then
Google team created it to solve a particular problem.

The problem was that a highway is a ROUTE, it can contain roads which
are not actually highways.

E.g. Multan road Lahore. From Thokar Niaz Beg to Chauburji and onwards
to the the road called Lower Mall, these two roads form part of the
highway network called N-5 in PK.
Problem is Multan road INSIDE Lahore and Lower Mall road fall under
jurisdiction of local city admin and are NOT highways, they are just
major artery roads inside the city.
So we can not classify those roads as highway, but how do we tell the
system that this road is part of a highway network?

Enter NUMBERED HIGHWAY category.

You will see on the maps that Multan road inside Lahore has the N5
sign in a blue polygon on it. That is because even though Multan road
is Major Arterial but it is also labeled as N-5 Numbered Highway to
tell the system to classify it as the part of a highway system.

So to correct Jabran above, you DO NOT have to have a primary highway
attribute to make the polygons/signage appear. You just have to have a
name labeled under Numbered Highway category.

Second:
After that logic i think now Google has written code which is specific
to Pakistani highways and uses info which users provided them with.

So we told Google that look, all roads/highways named as N-x should
have the blue polygon we told you about and all roads/controlled
highways which we call motorways should have the green polygon. So
this is country specific knowledge.

So when you create the N-1000 road and categorize it as Numbered
Highway, the system will now automatically add the blue polygon to it
with the proper name inside it. You don't have to do anything more.

Of course there are some issues which still exist as Jabran has
highlighted above related to E type and S type roads, and the missing
hyphen/dash from the N-x type road names.

hope that explains it all!

[Jabran]

> So to correct Jabran above, you DO NOT have to have a primary highway
> attribute to make the polygons/signage appear. You just have to have a
> name labeled under Numbered Highway category.
>

It surely explain the scenario completely! I didn't try recently so I
didn't know that now numbered highway attribute DID started working.
It's even great. This is why I think a little part of N-5 not properly
showing the code box near Lohianwala Bypass Chowk, Gujranwala.. Anyhow
cheers Omer

Regards,
جabran

-----------------------
Sent from iPhone

>>>>> page<http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0
>>>>> ...>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> <http://www.google.com/mapmaker?ll=31.538676,74.277792&spn=0.03109,0.0

[Khurram Ali]

Yep that explains a lot. and I think I don't have a further question about it.
 
but yet again I have never seen any Road Sign of N-5 on Lower Mall or any where when it is in the City. That was also a question besides it what you just explained and that helped as well. but do you have in mind that where actually can I see that N-5 mentioned on the Lower Mall or Multan Road. however I very rarely visited Multan Road so there might be that sign and I might have overlooked it.  Is it there on Lower Mall any where? Or this is only document?

  
Regards
KA.



 
> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 23:28:41 -0800
> Subject: Re: Fixed Motorways Signage
> From: mom...@gmail.com
> To: mapping-...@googlegroups.com

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[momers]

No i dont think it says n-5 anywhere so on the road but the road is
the continuation of multan road N-5 route all the way to the ravi
bridge (old) and beyond. hence Lower mall is a part of the n-5 route.

One problem btw, after you recreated Lower Mall i was trying to add
the Numbered Highway category but it is missing from the drop down
menu .I think its a bug.

In other places the numbered highway category still exists so im not
sure whats going on.

> _________________________________________________________________
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/

[Khurram Ali]

Oh, I just checked with it. yes! It doesn't show it.
but I just re-checked with creating another road, and that did show the Numbered Highway property.
 
Now what does it mean? is it a bug or it just is required in this way, that we need to add it as Numbered Highway only when we are creating a new road but not when editing a road.
 
I think it should be given all the time to edit or add when ever we want to change the attributes of a road in naming properties.
 
 
 
Regards
KA.



 
> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 01:05:12 -0800

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[Jabran]

One problem btw, after you recreated Lower Mall i was trying to add
the Numbered Highway category but it is missing from the drop down
menu .I think its a bug.

In other places the numbered highway category still exists so im not
sure whats going on.

I know what it is. Continuing my words, select the Primary Highway or higher in priority and save and then try edit again and you will find Numbered Highway there. ;)

[Khurram Ali]

^ PhhhrrrrRrr.. Exactly it's there now :)
So what to do with this road now.
 
- Change to Primary Highway.
- Add Numbered Highway attribute.
- Again change back to Major Arterial
hmmm ???
 
Regards
KA

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[Jabran]

Now you can change back to any priority and numbered highway attribute will not be lost.

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/25 Khurram Ali <khur...@gmail.com>

[Khurram Ali]

@Omer
I only checked the fact described by Jabran, with a section on the road and It did work, but I changed this again back to Major Arterial.
if you think the above way is good or any other way you can proceed with it. I am just going to have lunch :)
 
Thanks
Regards
KA.

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[momers]

Oh no! Really?...

but this way routes can not be marked!

But hey wait...
Multan road in Lahore is still showing the category, its major artery
and it has the polygons and one of its names is tagged as numbered
highway.

I think MapMaker guide and others need to start talking here!

[momers]

Hmmm, So this is obviously a bug, thats some relief!
Tracker issue any one?!

On Jan 25, 3:50 pm, Khurram Ali <khurra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> @Omer
>
> I only checked the fact described by Jabran, with a section on the road and It did work, but I changed this again back to Major Arterial.
>
> if you think the above way is good or any other way you can proceed with it. I am just going to have lunch :)
>
> Thanks
>
> Regards
>
> KA.
>

> _________________________________________________________________
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free.http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/

[Jabran]

I just saw on google maps and its showing the road with highway signage..

Regards,
جabran

==============
Long Live Pakistan!

2010/1/25 momers <mom...@gmail.com>

[momers]

Okay so the summary of the bug is:

When editing roads, the category Numbered Highway can not be assigned
as it is missing from the drop down name type menu.
When creating new roads the category can be assigned as it shows up in
the drop down name type menus.

Issue code: 522
http://code.google.com/p/google-mapmaker/issues/detail?id=522

On Jan 25, 3:58 pm, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just saw on google

> maps<http://maps.google.co.in/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=lahore&...>

[Map Maker Guide]

Hi everyone,
Chipping in here. Indeed Map Maker does not allow us to give a
'Numbered highway' name to roads that have a priority less than
Secondary Highway. (Major, Minor ... )

Let me ask you guys a question now: Why is it that the roads are not
marked as Primary Highway ? I would say that even if the road passes
through a city, and is a continuation of N-5, it should be marked as a
primary highway.

ex:
http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&fll=31.606071,74.297699&fr=0.000183,0.000215&mpp=0.508579&gw=39&ll=31.606811,74.297211&spn=0.006063,0.004946&t=h&z=18&iwloc=0_0&fid=4114350946411752733:2603952535915600529
I think that should be marked as a Primary Highway & not a Major
arterial.

Thoughts ?

Regards,
Map Maker Guide.

On Jan 25, 3:58 pm, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just saw on google

> maps<http://maps.google.co.in/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=lahore&...>

[momers]

Hmmmm....

so this must be a new behaviour after the update. It did not work like
this earlier. Case in point: Multan Road inside city Lahore.

http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&fll=31.606071,74.297699&fr=0.000183,0.000215&mpp=0.508579&gw=39&ll=31.484564,74.254532&spn=0.02269,0.047722&t=h&z=15&fid=4114350946411752733:2603952535915600529

To answer your question, the road is manager by the local city govt.
inside the city is it just another major road and no one really thinks
or calls it a highway. The National Highway Authority does not manage
it does not maintain it, nothing. The road and others roads (like
Lower Mall) just happens to be part of the N-5 route but in no way are
they highways themselves.

That is how I look at these issues and how i prioritize roads. E.g.
Secondary roads are secondary because of the jurisdictions they fall
under, e.g. Islamabad Highway and Kashmir Highway, not secondary and
nor primary.

Similarly, N-5 inside Rawalpindi city is also called The Mall Road and
Peshawar Road. But here the road is marked as Primary, reason, NHA
maintains the road directly and is responsible for all issues related
to it.

For me to buy your argument, i would have to figure out a new way of
seeing roads and highways, especially because I don't really like
highways running through a city except for in places where they
actually do run through the city!

The segment of the road i mention above was in the very beginning
marked as a Primary Highway. Historically speaking, once the M-2
controlled access was built, they called a section of it Lahore Bypass
(i have yet to add this info) and traffic simply started taking the
bypass route to avoid the congestion in the city. So while the section
still fell on NHA's N-5 route, it wasn't really maintained on managed
by them anymore. the local city govt. these days is planning to
rehabilitate the road and the projects been started. that doesnt
appear to me to be a highway they are out to restore.

My next question would be to NHA now, if i can talk to them. For them
is N-5 still a continuous route or once they hit multan road/lower
mall road in lahore, they don't consider the road to be a part of the
N-5 and then when they cross Ravi River Bridge the road changes to
G.T. Road and becomes part of the route called N-5?

I am open to the discussion still.

BTW, your comment that only highways can be classified as numbered
highway doesnt fly in face of the bug 522 i file above. New roads,
LOCAL, i can still categorize as Numbered Highway. Take a look at the
screen shot.

On Jan 27, 4:57 pm, Map Maker Guide <mapmakergu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>  Chipping in here. Indeed Map Maker does not allow us to give a
> 'Numbered highway' name to roads that have a priority less than
> Secondary Highway. (Major, Minor ... )
>
>  Let me ask you guys a question now: Why is it that the roads are not
> marked as Primary Highway ? I would say that even if the road passes
> through a city, and is a continuation of N-5, it should be marked as a
> primary highway.
>

> ex:http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&fll=31.606071,74.297699&fr=0.000...

> I think that should be marked as a Primary Highway & not a Major
> arterial.
>
> Thoughts ?
>
> Regards,
> Map Maker Guide.
>
> On Jan 25, 3:58 pm, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I just saw on google
> > maps<http://maps.google.co.in/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=lahore&...>
> > and
> > its showing the road with highway signage..
>
> > Regards,

> > Ìabran

[Map Maker Guide]

But continuity of the road is lost if you change the priority, right ?
If you want the name & route N-5 to continue within the city, I would
say that the priority of the road should also be continuous.

I completely agree with you that local roads that are drawn anew can
be marked as 'Numbered Highway'. So can all other roads using the
workaround that Jabran posted (change priority to higher ; add name;
change back )
I am not questioning the Issue 522 that you have posted. Choosing the
right priority is the bigger question. :)

I see that N-70 within Multan is also marked as a Primary Highway even
though it is passing through the city and it seems correct to me:
http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&fll=31.605627,74.297914&fr=0.000183,0.000215&mpp=0.508584&gw=39&ll=31.606317,74.297404&spn=0.006063,0.004946&t=h&z=18&iwloc=0_0&fid=4114350946411752733:2603952535915600529&dtab=attribute

Let the discussion continue :)

Regards,
Map Maker Guide.

On Jan 27, 5:33 pm, momers <mom...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hmmmm....
>
> so this must be a new behaviour after the update. It did not work like
> this earlier. Case in point: Multan Road inside city Lahore.
>

> http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&fll=31.606071,74.297699&fr=0.000...

[momers]

Shouldn't the continuity of the ROUTE be important rather than the
priority?

Route to me is a collection of roads and could be of mixed priorities
(and mixed names of course).

But i must admit I am not sure how this works in other countries. I'm
certain other countries have better defined rules and roads are not
abandoned or de-prioritized like the particular road section in
discussion above. And if a section is de-commissioned then
alternatives are clearly defined.

As for the N-70 case in Multan City, i havent visited the place in a
few years now hence i havent touched other cities. Its not a question
of if a highway passes through the city. As i cited above N-5 also
passes through Rawalpindi as a Primary Highway. Similarly N-70 can be
a primary and pass through Multan. My question would be "Is the NHA
maintaining this portion of the N-70 route or are the local city
municipal authorities?" Simple.

NHA and the provincial govt.'s run manage primary and secondary
highways respectively, here. But i'm not sure if that should be the
sole criteria of defining priorities.

Lastly, what IS a Priority? Can a Highway be made of say a total of
10km sections in which one 7km section has one name and the other 3km
section another? is that a bad way of designing highways...or did any
design go into that to begin with!??

Open questions i dont know the answers.

:)

On Jan 27, 6:11 pm, Map Maker Guide <mapmakergu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But continuity of the road is lost if you change the priority, right ?
> If you want the name & route N-5 to continue within the city, I would
> say that the priority of the road should also be continuous.
>
> I completely agree with you that local roads that are drawn anew can
> be marked as 'Numbered Highway'. So can all other roads using the
> workaround that Jabran posted (change priority to higher ; add name;
> change back )
> I am not questioning the Issue 522 that you have posted. Choosing the
> right priority is the bigger question. :)
>
> I see that N-70 within Multan is also marked as a Primary Highway even

> though it is passing through the city and it seems correct to me:http://www.google.com/mapmaker?hl=en&fll=31.605627,74.297914&fr=0.000...

[Jabran]

But i must admit I am not sure how this works in other countries. I'm
certain other countries have better defined rules and roads are not
abandoned or de-prioritized like the particular road section in
discussion above. And if a section is de-commissioned then
alternatives are clearly defined.

I think i have to jump in here to give an example for *other countries*. Well, for UK at least I know they keep the similar priority for a route e.g. (A4) will be A-Class road wherever it passes through. Example For general information, in UK all roads including motorways are maintained by departments run by counties. So you may also see different type of surface layout on roads in different counties which matter nothing more than just a different view.

 

 

 My question would be "Is the NHA
maintaining this portion of the N-70 route or are the local city
municipal authorities?" Simple.

NHA provides a route map of Highways and Motorways as attached as well. I don't see them classifiying the routes depending upon their maintenance authorities. I said once long time before as well that it doesn't make any sense to me at least to mark roads by dividing routes into different classes according to their maintanence authorities.

 

Lastly, what IS a Priority? Can a Highway be made of say a total of
10km sections in which one 7km section has one name and the other 3km
section another? is that a bad way of designing highways...or did any
design go into that to begin with!??

 

 

I believe that naming  should not be a problem for atleast highways. Since highways are the second major routes in the country and do pass through cities, towns, even in some cases villages. Also they alraedy have names given at local places like multan road etc. along with their route codes.

[momers]

Okay agree with your last point about naming, never had issues with
naming as such except for in the particular road we were discussing.

But the mpa you show is indicative only and not accurate to the nth
degree.

But when a priority like Highway is given to a road, i am certain that
QoS parameters apply. Issues like road surface quality, roughness,
geometric design, safety design etc all contribute to a certain drive
experience on highways. That's why they are highways to begin with!
Highways are there to provide a certain minimum level of experience in
terms of speed, comfort, access and connectivity.

That answers my question about WHAT is A PRIORITY. In simpler terms,
on an airplane, economy class cant qualify as a first class since many
amenities and the level of experience are missing. Hence the
difference in their priority. Priority first class came with a set of
expectations!

So, given that, the multan road and lower mall road sections we are
discussing within Lahore do no conform to the QoS standards of a
highway and that observation of mine and my subsequent decision to
call that road just a major arterial is corroborated by the fact that
the NHA simply has stopped taking care of that road! It just doesnt
want to get INSIDE that messy side of Lahore city, i think!

So the question is raised that should those roads then still be a part
of the N-5? Could it be that NHA considers the section of M-2 called
Lahore Bypass their new N-5 route?
Consequence of this would be that Multan Road and Lower mall road
inside Lahore,and the part of N-5 from the Ravi bridge to the Lahore
Bypass near Kala Shah Kaku would be rendered either redundant or
stripped off of their status as part of the N-5. This is tricky!

But coming back to MapMakers question, i still hold my opinion that
roads with lower priorities shoudl still be allowed to be names as
Numbered Highway.
This probably would be a non standard practice elsewhere and a one off
instance maybe even within pakistan and mayeb only within lahore.

I'll keep an eye out next time I am in Lahore!
:)

On Jan 27, 7:46 pm, Jabran <jabranrafi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > But i must admit I am not sure how this works in other countries. I'm
> > certain other countries have better defined rules and roads are not
> > abandoned or de-prioritized like the particular road section in
> > discussion above. And if a section is de-commissioned then
> > alternatives are clearly defined.
>
> > I think i have to jump in here to give an example for *other countries*.
>
> Well, for UK at least I know they keep the similar priority for a route e.g.
> (A4) will be A-Class road wherever it passes through.

> Example<http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=slough&...>For

> general information, in UK all roads including motorways are
> maintained
> by departments run by counties. So you may also see different type of
> surface layout on roads in different counties which matter nothing more than
> just a different view.
>
> >  My question would be "Is the NHA
> > maintaining this portion of the N-70 route or are the local city
> > municipal authorities?" Simple.
>
> > NHA provides a route map of Highways and Motorways as attached as well. I
>
> don't see them classifiying the routes depending upon their maintenance
> authorities. I said once long time before as well that it doesn't make any
> sense to me at least to mark roads by dividing routes into different classes
> according to their maintanence authorities.
>
> > Lastly, what IS a Priority? Can a Highway be made of say a total of

> > 10km sections in *which one 7km section has one name* and the other 3km

> > section another? is that a bad way of designing highways...or did any
> > design go into that to begin with!??
>
> I believe that naming  should not be a problem for atleast highways. Since
> highways are the second major routes in the country and do pass through
> cities, towns, even in some cases villages. Also they alraedy have names
> given at local places like multan road etc. along with their route codes.
>
> Regards,
> جabran
>
> ==============
> Long Live Pakistan!
>

>  Pakistan_Nationalhighways.png
> 331KViewDownload

[Jabran]

hmm.. OK I try to explain with image attached example instead of linking to maps. Maybe it will explain my point of view but not a decision as we are still in discussion. First image covers the whole London including London Orbital M25 motorway. Its only based on my observation. You will see few motorways coming inside the M25 (Blue lines). Here, where they finish and become smaller roads are not actually lower quality roads but the same roads with only rules and regulations changing. At this place where I would say that how priority can be set for a ROUTE but not based on ROAD TYPE. If you have a look in hybrid mode with zoomed in to these motorways' finishing points, you will find most of them not even look like a motorway but as similar to highway. M4 for an example. A4 is the preceding A-class or Highway road to M4 and so on. Now about their quality matters, speed etc. M4 at Heathrow (junction 4) has speed reduced to 60mph instead of national speed of 70mph. Images attached from street view. Going further towards London when reaches to Ealing (Junction 2) it further reduces speed to 40mph and lanes are now only 2 while 3rd red lane is Bus/Taxi/Bike Lane which eventually also finishes after going further down and only two lanes motorway continue to its start point. I also have already mentioned that all roads are divided between highway departments held under counties so the maintenance is under London County while outside of M25, M4 is passing through Berkshire, Wiltshire etc.. That's my local knowledge in giving this example for maps. Like in other countries, I hope in Pakistan Motorways must have their start and ending regulations sign-board similar like in attached image. That's what you can confirm me from your side and it may help to indicate the points from where motorway/highway regulations start/end.

Cheers

 

But when a priority like Highway is given to a road, i am certain that
QoS parameters apply. Issues like road surface quality, roughness,
geometric design, safety design etc all contribute to a certain drive
experience on highways. That's why they are highways to begin with!
Highways are there to provide a certain minimum level of experience in
terms of speed, comfort, access and connectivity.

That answers my question about WHAT is A PRIORITY. In simpler terms,
on an airplane, economy class cant qualify as a first class since many
amenities and the level of experience are missing. Hence the
difference in their priority. Priority first class came with a set of
expectations!
 

So, given that, the multan road and lower mall road sections we are
discussing within Lahore do no conform to the QoS standards of a
highway and that observation of mine and my subsequent decision to
call that road just a major arterial is corroborated by the fact that
the NHA simply has stopped taking care of that road! It just doesnt
want to get INSIDE that messy side of Lahore city, i think!

So the question is raised that should those roads then still be a part
of the N-5? Could it be that NHA considers the section of M-2 called
Lahore Bypass their new N-5 route?
Consequence of this would be that Multan Road and Lower mall road
inside Lahore,and the part of N-5 from the Ravi bridge to the Lahore
Bypass near Kala Shah Kaku would be rendered either redundant or
stripped off of their status as part of the N-5. This is tricky!

[Jabran]

So has this discussion ended or just died without any more to include to take it to some conclusion?

Regards,
جabran

==========
Long Live PK!

[momers]

not ended but awaiting new insights...and a visit to the location and
the time to speak to some local authorities.

[Jabran]

Oh good that would be really good. I would say even if you could get
opinion from mapping people govt or private survey groups, that would
be very useful. If none is available then no problem at all.

Regards,
جabran

-----------------------
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