Re: [MakerGear] Building a M2

[Rick Pollack]

There are several exploded diagrams on the M2 instructions page and a main assembly file at the bottom of the page.
http://www.makergear.com/pages/m2-assembly-instructions

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 7:46 AM, DB_Daddy-O <dennis....@zoominternet.net> wrote:

Great Graphices on the assembly, and got a big pile of hardware!  But what size screws for what?  I 'm starting to put the feet on but can't find any referance to the screw size I should use.   I'm I missing something that list what sizes go where?

 

DB_Daddy-O

[Trevor Lewis]

 Speaking of building an M2, I just have to say...

 Dear Makergearanistas,

  Even though I only ordered my M2 a week ago, oh my god oh my god oh my god hurry up. :)

 Thank you. :)

--

 

Failure is just success rounded down. - T-Rex

 

Sent from your iPhone.

[Doug]

Yeah use the pdf exploded drawings to get the bolt sizes for everything.  I noted these few minor things about the instructions

 

1. The nylon spacers used as stoppers at the ends of the x and y rails are 3/8"OD x 3/8" long, but the drawings say the part has a 3/8" ID

2. I used M3x35 (i think) for the z stepper (you can't re-use the stock screws), I never saw this the instructions but it just made sense given the hardware in the kit

3. Some of the holes in the aluminum plates were tapped so nuts were not needed, example the idler studs 

 

I also got at least one extra bolt for each size I needed to put the machine together.  

[Rick Pollack]

Thanks Doug!

--
Rick Pollack
MakerGear
23632 Mercantile Rd.
Unit D-Rear
Beachwood, OH 44122
216-346-6127

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Sorry to sound contrary, but the docs as provided are not entirely
clear, and are pretty ambiguous in places.

I had two friends over today (still building). One's a mechanical
engineer; the other, a former Makerbot employee. Neither felt that the
docs were acceptable, and both agreed that describing the kit as
"partially assembled" was pretty optimistic.

I guess it depends upon your target customer; it might be OK for
someone that's built a printer before, or for someone like my friend,
the mechanical engineer. But otherwise, the docs are not appropriate
for a wider audience.

Otherwise, both were very impressed, and are salivating to see it in
action.

On Aug 28, 11:26 am, Rick Pollack <r...@makergear.com> wrote:
> There are several exploded diagrams on the M2 instructions page and a main

> assembly file at the bottom of the page.http://www.makergear.com/pages/m2-assembly-instructions

[Joshua Wills]

John, sorry to hear that you're having trouble.  Is there any specific part that I could help clarify for you?

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Well, actually, quite a bit of help has been required, and IRC hasn't
really been a great experience. But that being said, my current issue
is with the electronics.

I've gotten the RAMBo into the plastic case, but the wiring inside the
case? Totally obtuse. As far as I can see, the only guide is this
picture:

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0030/7372/files/electronics_in_mount.jpg?100228

That's amazingly unclear. Is there a proper wiring guide?

Thanks.

jh

[Joshua Wills]

Sorry this wasn't made more prominent on the website: http://makergear.wikidot.com/m2 specifically http://makergear.wikidot.com/m2-electronics

[Jonathan Hirschman]

OK, another one:

Step 5 in this document:

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0030/7372/files/M2_Primary_Assy_v_1.1.PDF?100241

Is the X Stage Assembly really only attached with one bolt? Or four?
Totally ambiguous - the fastener guide shows a single bolt, the
diagram suggests four fasteners. If four, are they all the same size?

Really, it might be a good idea to have an M2 assembly questions
thread.

[Jonathan Hirschman]

And another one, back to electronics:

The Wiki says:

"Prewired, plug in so that + is connected to White, Red or Yellow -
whichever you have"

My Z plug is wired such that the wires going into the plug, are grey,
black, red and white. Reading the X or Y from the same orientation:
red, green, yellow, blue (as shown in the wiki).

How should the Z be plugged in? Where is "+"? Since I have both red
and white, you can understand the confusion. Also, plugging it in what
I'm _guessing_ is correct means that the plug is oriented "flipped"
relative to the X and Y connectors. Again, _not clear_.

[Joshua Wills]

Those are the motor connectors.  The instructions you are referring to are for the endstop switches.

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Sorry, my bad, but the question still stands - how does the Z motor
connector connect? The Wiki shows that the wiring is yellow, green,
yellow, blue. My connector is grey, black, red, white.

[Joshua Wills]

The motor connector is not polarized - plug it in as you said, gray-red, black-green, red-yellow, white-blue.  If the Z platform moves in the incorrect direction when commanded (the platform moves up when you send Z+10, for instance), you need to follow the directions on the wiki - power down, unplug power, and physically flip the Z motor connector, so that it then goes gray-blue, black-yellow, red-green, white-red.

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Sorry, I'm being confusing. Let me clarify:

The wiki shows that motor wiring for each connector is Red, Green,
Yellow, Blue.

The X and Y motor connectors follow the wiki. No problem there.

My Z motor connector is wired Grey, Black, Red, White.

My Extruder motor connector is wired Red, Grey, Black, White.

Are the Z and Extruder motor connector wired correctly? If so, how
should they be plugged in? I'm concerned that plugging it in backwards
might cause damage.

[Joshua Wills]

The image on the wiki is a generic image produced by the man who created RAMBo.  It has not yet been remade for our specific setup, but it provides all the information necessary.  The wire colors do not matter, and may not match the image for X and Y.  Plugging any of our stepper motors in backwards will not damage it - you will only have to make note of the reversed motor, unplug power, and flip the connector.

All of the motors in the harness are tested in two different setups, once when they are wired, once when the harness is completed.  All four motors are wired correctly.

[Rick Pollack]

the way to hurt a stepper driver is to unplug the motor connector while it is powered up

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Joshua,

Thanks for your help with this. I apologize for being exasperating,
but the docs really could use to be redone and consolidated into one
single guide that simply and linearly goes step by step. It's taking
me more time to find the information than to just put it into use.

[Joshua Wills]

It's not a problem at all.  I started today on a stock, start-to-finish assembly of an M2, with exactly what comes in the kit, and just with the posted instructions.  There are a couple small discrepancies and issues that I've noted, and several things that could be clearer; yours are going on the list as well.

If there are any other instructions you feel need clarification, or if you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Joshua,

You're an experienced builder, I'm assuming, and you know where all
the information is. Not sure that's a fair commentary about the state
of the documentation.

Put this way: if I had known what partially assembled meant, and what
state the docs would be in, I'd have gladly sprung for assembly. Would
have been worth every single penny.

[Rick Pollack]

And Jonathan, here is what you posted on your Google+ account:
---
Three things that you don't want to hear from tech support when you buy a $1300 3D printer kit:

"If it doesn't fit, scrape it until it does"
"Plug it in and if it goes backwards, flip the plug. But not with the power on, or you'll destroy it"
"Does the fact that our instructions show a completely different part than the one that you received really confuse you?"

I'm not making any of this up.
---

1) it is a printed part - sometimes there is excess material that needs to be cleaned up. you had to put in a little effort to get the nuts into position?

2) that is how it works with stepper motors and it is generally a good idea to power down before working on electronics - we expect people who order kits to know some of this. or, if they don't they can ask and learn something in the process - that is why we offer kits. otherwise, get it fully assembled. the M2 electronics are much easier to work with than the previous electronics.

3) you are referring to the micro-switches - the lever is on the switch is not shown in the diagram. Worst case, you have to remove two screws and flip the switch.

The team spent several weeks creating very detailed exploded diagrams and animations and there are going to be errors and omissions, we'll correct them as we become aware of them.

Additionally there are channels - like this one - to ask questions if something is not clear.

Rick

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Rick,

Thanks for taking such an interest in me. And while I did post that, I
kept the post "blind". I didn't mention Makergear, purposefully. I'm
not in the habit of anonymous trolling or just crapping on someone. In
fact, I think that you'll find that I've made some very nice mentions
about your company in the press recently - keep on digging, and I'm
certain that you'll find them.

All of my comments that you've thoughtfully reproduced here are
perfectly valid. Since you're clearly interested in keeping this post
going, I'll respond accordingly:

1. The printed part in question didn't have excess material. The holes
were too small, for whatever reason. Most of the parts didn't have
this issue. One of them did, and it was a quality control lapse.

Since then, I've found two other defective printed parts. One was the
X Stage Assembly. It cracked when it clearly shouldn't have, around
one of the nut holes. Superglued. The printed piece around the
extruder is missing material, enough such that my engineer friend
expressed concern. But it hasn't failed or caused a problem yet.

2. I think that you're (willfully) missing the point. I don't think
that it's too much to ask to have documentation that shows, clearly,
how parts go together. The actual docs don't show how to wire things
at all; the wiki "addendum" doesn't show the correct colors for the
wires for the motor connectors. Why not? Is it really fair to blame a
customer for your documentation?

3. This is simply not correct. I'm very familiar with microswitches.
The one shown in the docs has a lever - a curved one. I received a
microswitch with a totally different lever. Again, enough to cause
concern when I couldn't find the part shown. This is a first release
of a product, and I assumed that it was unlikely that there'd be parts
substitutions. Again, this comes down to a deficiency in the docs.

Lastly: to suggest that I could have avoided these problems by having
ordered an assembled unit is being disingenuous. Like most M2 orders,
I was a pre-order. No docs were up until, I think, my order was en
route, or perhaps just before. There was absolutely no way I could
have made such a determination, and you know this.

As for tech support: I truly appreciate how responsive you and your
staff have been overall, although sometimes IRC simply doesn't work.
As in tonight, when I got no answer to a question that I posed. But
I'd really would have preferred better documentation so that I didn't
need to bug you so many times.

I'll leave it here. I'm really not interested in a flame match; I just
want to print my stuff, and the state of the documentation is keeping
me from that goal. This is my opinion, I'm a paying customer, and it's
perfectly valid for me to express that in this thread.

Bests,

Jonathan

[Rick Pollack]

Wait, the micro-switch you were looking at had the lever (it was missing on the document I looked at) - then you also had the orientation. The switch was wired into your wiring harness, the illustration had the orientation - all you had to do was put it on. The part  shown in the illustration was temporarily unavailable. The difference is that the micro-switch in the illustration has a lever and the one in the kit has a lever with a roller - it is not a completely different part - it is a different lever.

M2 is a very nice printer. If you have to say something "i am not making this up" then it sounds like we are doing something very wrong. Your expectations are clearly not aligned with what we are doing here. Our objective was to make a super nice 3D printer (though I think we may have made a mistake by offering it as a kit). MakerGear is a six-person company with three distinct printer lines, spare parts and filament. If you order spare parts or filament there is a good chance those items will ship next day. We could do a lesser printer with more complete instructions or reach for more knowing there will be some loose ends (that we can tighten up along the way, generally with the direct assistance of printer owners) - we've chosen the latter and will continue to do so.

I was not being disingenuous with regards to what partially assembled meant. The M2 product page said that to get a sense of what assembly would be like, go through the M1 instructions (since the M2 instructions were not available). M2 assembly is more involved but with a comparable process plus you get a feel for the instructions. Since the M1 frame is laser cut plywood rather than fabricated steel and machined aluminum, we include a bit of sandpaper since some touch up work may be required. I am not making that up!

I have no issue with you telling us your experience in this thread or asking questions on IRC. I don't get the snarky post though.

Rick

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Rick,

You're either missing or ignoring my point. If you're going to put out
documentation that is inherently picture based, it's going to cause
confusion to at least some people when the parts in the kit don't
match. I have no idea where the orientation issue came from. Really, a
simple annotation on the PDF that said "We may have substituted a
switch with a roller lever" would have taken... 30 seconds? And that
applies to most everything that I've said.

"I'm not making this up" means that the responses aren't fictional.
Two experienced friends both couldn't believe those responses, but
they were also somewhat in disbelief about using IRC as a support
channel (which I'm not complaining about, as that was made clear on
your site before I ordered). One of them is ex-Makerbot. His opinion,
exact quote: "Really great design, but they shouldn't be selling it as
a kit with the docs that they have". He went on to talk about how the
Thing-O-Matic was a rather complex design, with something like 3x the
parts that make up an M2, but because the docs were clear, it'd be
faster to build one of those in comparison. And no, I'm not making
that up.

My expectations, given all of the great feedback that your company has
gotten, is that I'd get a kit that had adequate documentation. As I've
said in IRC: you didn't make a mistake by offering a kit. You've made
a mistake by releasing the kit with the docs in their current state,
and it just ain't me that thinks so. Seriously, any competent
documentation professional could have made the assembly process
something that my entirely non-technical wife could understand in less
than a week, and I say that as someone that's produced quite a bit of
doco in my time. Pay my expenses, and I'll take a plane over and write
it on spec. Pay me once you get 25 unsolicited compliments :)

I'm not going to continue to argue with you about whether my opinions
are valid or not, since it's pretty clear that you don't see any
merits about what I'm saying. I regret that you feel that the post in
question was snarky, even keeping in mind that it doesn't, in any way,
mention your company or the M2, but you're entitled to your opinion as
well. If you prefer, I'll remove the post, since it clearly upsets
you.

I look forward to being a happy M2 customer once I finish building
this thing, and being as vocal with praise. I hope to be able to
demonstrate it at an upcoming user group that I host here in NYC.

Thanks.

Jonathan

[sto...@gmail.com]

OK, I can not lurk any longer. I've only been 3D printing and building for a year and a half but, I knew when I started that we are all beginning at some point of ignorance. I knew, from the forums that the companies were all people building never before built machines in a new world. And I saw that all these Inventors were not going to be polished in all venues.

I was awake and read months before I got my first KIT! I realized I needed to read, A Lot! I asked a few questions to myself then searched and read A Lot! I asked fewer questions online because for the earlier wave I came with others were asking/creating so I absorbed. When I fit my KIT I did what I was told quite often and when someone told me polarity and color did not matter to plug it in by the support team, I did! I griped if it did not work after I did what they said. I did not ignore their direction and continue a distorting argument diverting or convoluting the process towards my printing.

In this string - The Directions I've read to move forward were to a new person. I found your diections clear. I do not have the M2 and I understood to plug the motor into the board. It was easy to follow - Plug in the Stepper. If it goes in the wrong direction, power down, unplug the machine, switch the plug and Move On!

Another thing - ALL Makers in business are MAKING AND SUPPLYING HOBBY KITS! That is HOBBY KITS! OR some do supply a fully assembled machine. If you are not with any knowledge or willing and wanting to learn buy the machine assembled before you blow up the electronics. Otherwise, The Kit means, get out your exacto, sand paper, dremel, soldering iron and other tools. Expect laps to the hardware stores or online for stuff. What stuff? Any and all. Most of us, in this venture, can not leave well enough alone to not change things or we 'Fat Finger' or 'Duh!'  a step and have to fix a mistake/breakage. You Will be Making and Assemblying a Hobby Kit! Or give up!

If you want to only assemble -  Then, get on a line somewhere and gripe at the bosses.

My telling you this is not telling you to, "Shutup!" But, to encourage you to be more humble and tell you to follow the builder/inventor/newbie method: Tell support or the Forums about your problem, listen to their suggestions. When told by ythe Makers and their support about their own machine, which you have - stop fighting them. They have gone overboard being polite, patient and helpful. You Do Not Have A Real Problem, Yet! If you can't handle the building, uncertainty, new technologies and making your own way in this venture then wait it out till the machines are at the Big Box Stores.

You are whining about plugging in one stinking motor. You haven't even designed an item or tried to print. OUCH!

Oh, even on an assembly line the technicians/mechanics have deburring tools, tape, glue and bits to assemble the items we buy.

Lastly, Rick IS OVERBOARD IN THIS NEW WORLD, HOBBY, BUSINESS, CHANGE. This is a good thing. It is likely to make him old fast but, he seems to enjoy his efforts. He is support - 365 X 24+. He, his wife and those with him, the other companies and the forum's participants are doing so many amazing, different, new, never been done, or the way they are doing it with so many never existing materials, applications, designs, methods, ideas, tools,.electronics, etc... If you can't plug in a motor then, STOP! Because your brain is not wired for this and you may explode. Seriously! ;-)

In closing, I am not anonymous...
When you are saying, "Jerk!" My name is Brian Stott - Jerk!. I'm in Pittsburgh, got two T-O-Ms, one commercial printer, making two others printers, robotics and so twisted with all the new that twenty different problems, ideas, designs, things happening, to-dos is resting...... Good Luck!

[sto...@gmail.com]

Rick,

Please do not stop providing kits because of the errant individual. You know there are many thousands of us Makers around the world. Do not let one bag egg spoil it for us all..

Rick, I have followed your efforts through the Forums and 3D printer business growth. You have not been misleading in any way. After reading this string -  This individual cleary dove in without knowing or properly reasearching. He thought he wanted to race and bought a kit car knowing nothing about mechanics, cars, driving, technology, tools or the participants.  He appears smart from his sentences but, too anxious to have prepared. He is not ready for the big kids. Please do not yank your kits.

Warmest Regards,

Brian Stott - Pittsburgh

----- Reply message -----
From: "Rick Pollack" <ri...@makergear.com>
Date: Thu, Aug 30, 2012 11:59 am
Subject: [MakerGear] Re: Building a M2

To: <make...@googlegroups.com>

Wait, the micro-switch you were looking at had the lever (it was missing on the document I looked at) - then you also had the orientation. The switch was wired into your wiring harness, the illustration had the orientation - all you had to do was put it on. The part  shown in the illustration was temporarily unavailable. The difference is that the micro-switch in the illustration has a lever and the one in the kit has a lever with a roller - it is not a completely different part - it is a different lever.

M2 is a very nice printer. If you have to say something "i am not making this up" then it sounds like we are doing something very wrong. Your expectations are clearly not aligned with what we are doing here. Our objective was to make a super nice 3D printer (though I think we may have made a mistake by offering it as a kit). MakerGear is a six-person company with three distinct printer lines, spare parts and filament. If you order spare parts or filament there is a good chance those items will ship next day. We could do a lesser printer with more complete instructions or reach for more knowing there will be some loose ends (that we can tighten up along the way, generally with the direct assistance of printer owners) - we've chosen the latter and will continue to do so.

I was not being disingenuous with regards to what partially assembled meant. The M2 product page said that to get a sense of what assembly would be like, go through the M1 instructions (since the M2 instructions were not available). M2 assembly is more involved but with a comparable process plus you get a feel for the instructions. Since the M1 frame is laser cut plywood rather than fabricated steel and machined aluminum, we include a bit of sandpaper since some touch up work may be required. I am not making that up!

I have no issue with you telling us your experience in this thread or asking questions on IRC. I don't get the snarky post though.

Rick

[xrayjim]

All I can say is I will gladly buy his "problematic" M2 for immediate delivery! :-)
Rick keep up the good work.
The challenge of technical machine design is tremendously difficult in any class of product. When a small group of individuals seek to design a product then become this products's marketing, purchasing, receiving, manufacturing, shipping, tech support, etc.., AND has to generate documentation, let us just say, it is not for the faint of heart. I have been impressed with the MakerGear speed of development, document authoring, information sharing on the web and in the messaging sites. This is why I chose MakerGear M2 instead of one of the many competitors.
If one expects to have perfect documentation they should wait until the market matures and you can buy the printer at Walmart "no assembly required".
A technical aptitude test to qualify kit buyers may have to be considered. At the very least question them as to whether they own their tools or will have to borrow tools.

Thanks for bringing this great product to us and for making it available in kit form.

Jim

[Rick Pollack]

Preparing kits is quite involved and time consuming. If we just offer a fully-assembled M2 we can streamline much of the process, remove a considerable number of variables, reduce support and completely eliminate the documentation and other issues discussed in the latter portion of this thread. Considering the battle we are presently going through (primarily related to supplier problems) to deliver M2, the slam here was really quite stunning and unexpected (in a negative way).

Your support is very much appreciated.

Rick

[Paul Leonard]

I think that the problem here is that there are several levels of expectations here that are perfectly valid in all of the cases. As a manufacturer, Rick and company have taken on the unenviable task of trying to design, develop, manufacture and distribute a kit that requires high precision and careful assembly. I don't think anyone will disagree that the M2 documentation isn't comprehensive, and that there is plenty of room for improvement in the details, but these issues aren't insurmountable with a little help from the folks at MG.  However, as a customer who has laid out a significant sum of money for a tool, there are definitely expectations that if the machine is being sold as a kit, there will be pretty comprehensive documentation. This wasn't a show-stopper for me, personally, as I found help readily available (and I like IRC) and paths through the missing details but I'll be honest and admit to more than one "what the hell is this for?" moments.

I talked with some folks from MakerBot when they were here locally for Maker Faire, and Rick's observations below were almost word for word the reasons that they gave for their decision not to offer the Replicator as a kit. It makes a lot of sense to eliminate the kit option, as there is obviously considerably more cost involved in creating the product for an expected lower retail price. Ultimately the reason we're buying machines, and why Rick is selling them is so that we can use them to make things.

Ultimately, I guess where I stand on things is that at the end of the day the M2 is a beautiful machine that will serve its owners needs for quite some time to come, and the difficulties encountered are dwarfed by the end result.

MG Folks, just keep up the good work.

paul

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Thanks for the even-handed response, Paul.

To respond to some things that folks that haven't built an M2 have
said or inferred: I have the skills to build this (in fact, it's
finished). I have the tools to build it, too, not that much is needed
given what's in the box. My issue was that the docs made it much more
difficult and confusing than it had to be, and when I asked simple
questions, I got back responses like "does the fact that we shipped a
different part than what was shown in the docs really confuse you?"
Yeah, it does, and I'm not going to apologize for being concerned when
an entirely pictorial based set of instructions for a rev. 1 produce
deviates from reality. And such commentary make me not want to contact
support at all.

Rick said this, earlier, in the thread: "The M2 product page said that

to get a sense of what assembly would
be like, go through the M1 instructions (since the M2 instructions
were not
available)."

And that's why I bought the kit - the M1 docs are great. They're
clear, they're linear, they clearly show, via photos, what the end
result should be after following instructions. They're sprinkled with
little hints and tips throughout.

The M2 docs simply are not at the same level, nor are they the same
style. And they're not complete, either - installing the Z Endstop
Trigger? It isn't documented. Lead screw knob? Not documented.
Electronics install? Not documented (although there's something in the
Wiki, which is not mentioned or linked from the docs). Sorry, but
anyone trying to make the claim that there's anything equivalent, in
any way, about the M1 and M2 docs is just full of it. Which is really
a shame, a the kit itself is just lovely, and the finished printer is
likewise just lovely.

Nor are there any first-print instructions (I'm going to try to adapt
the M1 instructions, which look terrific). This has nothing to do with
the kit, this also applies to buyers that elected to get the M2, fully
assembled, as their first printer. I'm assuming that MG isn't going to
claim that fully built M2's aren't intended for new users? The M1
surely was, given the set of docs there. And I was told, both before
and after purchase, that the M1 docs were indicative of what I'd get
with the M2, doc-wise. Which is why I bought it. And which is why I'm
disappointed.

Why do I have to guess at this stuff? Like, do I always use the glass
on top of the heated bed, or do I use one or the other? Why can't I
get the same level of docs as the M1?

Thanks.

jh

[sto...@gmail.com]

I conceed to practicality. Efficiency and business. You can only be humanitarian towards giving the you have to eat, sleep, and have your own life....

Good Job! Rick & Karen.

Regards,

Brian.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Rick Pollack" <ri...@makergear.com>
Date: Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:56 am
Subject: [MakerGear] Re: Building a M2
To: <make...@googlegroups.com>

[sto...@gmail.com]

Reminder: MakerGear does sell the machine assembled.

----- Reply message -----
From: "Paul Leonard" <pleon...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Sep 1, 2012 3:20 am
Subject: [MakerGear] Re: Building a M2
To: <make...@googlegroups.com>

I think that the problem here is that there are several levels of expectations here that are perfectly valid in all of the cases. As a manufacturer, Rick and company have taken on the unenviable task of trying to design, develop, manufacture and distribute a kit that requires high precision and careful assembly. I don't think anyone will disagree that the M2 documentation isn't comprehensive, and that there is plenty of room for improvement in the details, but these issues aren't insurmountable with a little help from the folks at MG.  However, as a customer who has laid out a significant sum of money for a tool, there are definitely expectations that if the machine is being sold as a kit, there will be pretty comprehensive documentation. This wasn't a show-stopper for me, personally, as I found help readily available (and I like IRC) and paths through the missing details but I'll be honest and admit to more than one "what the hell is this for?" moments.

I talked with some folks from MakerBot when they were here locally for Maker Faire, and Rick's observations below were almost word for word the reasons that they gave for their decision not to offer the Replicator as a kit. It makes a lot of sense to eliminate the kit option, as there is obviously considerably more cost involved in creating the product for an expected lower retail price. Ultimately the reason we're buying machines, and why Rick is selling them is so that we can use them to make things.

Ultimately, I guess where I stand on things is that at the end of the day the M2 is a beautiful machine that will serve its owners needs for quite some time to come, and the difficulties encountered are dwarfed by the end result.

MG Folks, just keep up the good work.

paul



On 8/31/2012 11:56 PM, Rick Pollack wrote:

[Rick Pollack]

The M2 instructions are way more comprehensive than the M1 instructions. Except for the occasional omission (which we are working to correct) every single screw, nut, washer and bolt is identified and the position is indicated using exploded diagrams and animations. We spent way more time on the M2 instructions vs. the M1 instructions and the M2 instructions are way more detailed.

http://www.makergear.com/pages/m2-assembly-instructions
The Z endstop trigger you asked about is covered in the Z stage exploded diagram.
Step 9 - Z Endstop Trigger Installation
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0030/7372/files/Z-Stage_Assy.PDF?100215
but it is labeled as 43 in diagram but as 31 in the table (aka the occasional omission cited above)

You asked (on IRC) about the differences in the end-stop switches and got an answer from MakerGear support in less than two minutes.

[2012-08-22 14:09:34] <hirschma> M2 build question, re: Z-stage assembly, step 3. Item 6 is the endstop switch. Which one? None of the switches on the motor wiring harness match the illustration. Also - do I remove the switch from the harness?

[2012-08-22 14:11:31] <MG|Josh> The Y endstop switch is bundled with the heated build platform wiring
[2012-08-22 14:12:22] <MG|Josh> X and Z are bundled together - Z is bolted to a printed part, X is not
[2012-08-22 14:14:30] <MG|Josh> And as for removing anything from the harness - you should not have to, everything is wired together so that you can just bolt/ziptie it on

The belt clamp that you commented on was printed with the nut traps down without support material. As a result, excess plastic can accumulate and needs to be cleaned out. The belt clamps are clearly illustrated here. http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0030/7372/files/Belt_Clamp_Assy.PDF?100209

BTW, the M1 instructions do not explain how to attach the Z handle.

Additionally, you were not abandoned and left to guess. You asked questions on IRC and each time your questions were answer in under five minutes. You asked a question at 1:00 AM about a missing screw and got a response, from me, 17 seconds later.

We provided incredibly detailed diagrams and animations and provided near real-time support (IRC) and offline support (this google group). What standard, exactly, are we being held to for this kit?

Significant portions of the MG Mendel and M1 instructions/guides were written by the community after they received their kits. They did not jump on us, rather they saw opportunities to contribute, asked questions, and filled in the holes. Our ability to provide kits depends on a community that is willing to pick up some balls and help out. Both 'First Print' guides were written by community members.

We can eliminate almost every issue cited here (and things like sending out missing parts) and instead focus on How-to guides and other products simply by not providing kits.

Rick

[Jonathan Hirschman]

Sorry for the confusion - I meant Z Endstop Switch installation. Not
documented. Yes, I got a response to my queries about the issue
quickly, like so many of the other issues that I had. Seriously, until
recently, MG was always johnny on the spot in this regard.

But that doesn't change the fact that all of that support was only
required due to the state of the documentation in the first place.

As for being left to guess: Rick, first you say that I should have
known what I was getting into by reviewing the M1 docs. One of those
docs being a first print guide that has your name in the byline.

Fine, I do that, buy your product. and then when I mention that there
is no equivalent first print guide, as with the M1, I'm told that I
should write it myself, or get my information from support. This is
contrary to your previous assertions and representations. And I love
community - I manage a large and growing Maker group here in NYC - but
I that wasn't part of the deal when I bought the printer. I hope that
I do eventually get to the point where I can contribute here in a more
positive way. Once I finally get printing. Which I'm very anxious to
do.

So I post a question here about leveling and such, and it goes ignored
by MG. See:

http://groups.google.com/group/makergear/browse_thread/thread/a456eb07352435a5#

While it's great that a customer of yours tried to help, since he
doesn't have an M2, there was only so much value in his response, and
honestly, I didn't understand some of what he was saying. Perhaps you
missed it. Perhaps my attempt to get information via IRC before that
post, which went unanswered, was also an error or oversight. I'll
assume that it was in both cases, because that's typically the
explanation.

At any rate, now I'm going to use a guide for a different product,
which is somewhat out of date. And while I'm sure that I'll eventually
figure it all out, it'll just be that much more time and frustration
before I get what I want out of this machine.

So yes, that's being left to guess. I really don't know what else to
call it.

jh

On Sep 1, 3:37 pm, Rick Pollack <r...@makergear.com> wrote:
> The M2 instructions are way more comprehensive than the M1 instructions.
> Except for the occasional omission (which we are working to correct) every
> single screw, nut, washer and bolt is identified and the position is
> indicated using exploded diagrams and animations. We spent way more time on
> the M2 instructions vs. the M1 instructions and the M2 instructions are way
> more detailed.
>
> http://www.makergear.com/pages/m2-assembly-instructions
> The Z endstop trigger you asked about is covered in the Z stage exploded
> diagram.

> Step 9 - Z Endstop Trigger Installationhttp://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0030/7372/files/Z-Stage_Assy.PDF?100215

> but it is labeled as 43 in diagram but as 31 in the table (aka the
> occasional omission cited above)
>
> You asked (on IRC) about the differences in the end-stop switches and got
> an answer from MakerGear support in less than two minutes.
>
> [2012-08-22 14:09:34] <hirschma> M2 build question, re: Z-stage assembly,
> step 3. Item 6 is the endstop switch. Which one? None of the switches on
> the motor wiring harness match the illustration. Also - do I remove the
> switch from the harness?
>
> [2012-08-22 14:11:31] <MG|Josh> The Y endstop switch is bundled with the
> heated build platform wiring
> [2012-08-22 14:12:22] <MG|Josh> X and Z are bundled together - Z is bolted
> to a printed part, X is not
> [2012-08-22 14:14:30] <MG|Josh> And as for removing anything from the
> harness - you should not have to, everything is wired together so that you
> can just bolt/ziptie it on
>
> The belt clamp that you commented on was printed with the nut traps down
> without support material. As a result, excess plastic can accumulate and

> needs to be cleaned out. The belt clamps are clearly illustrated here.http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0030/7372/files/Belt_Clamp_Assy.PDF?...

[sto...@gmail.com]

I will buy your problem machine. Even with your problems and likely mistakes. What price to take the headache from you?

----- Reply message -----
From: "Jonathan  Hirschman" <jon...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Sep 1, 2012 5:08 pm
Subject: [MakerGear] Re: Building a M2

To: "MakerGear - Make Today, Change Tomorrow" <make...@googlegroups.com>

[Jonathan Hirschman]

On Sep 1, 5:41 pm, "sto...@gmail.com" <sto...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I will buy your problem machine. Even with your problems and likely mistakes. What price to take the headache from you?

The machine is built perfectly, and not for sale.

[NCBob]

MakerGear is the best RepRap supplier in my opinion. I have never had any issue with their support, sponge time, quality of their products and their shipment standards.

EVERY single order I've gotten from them has been packed meticulously, labeled, and almost every time extra components at I might screw up have been provided as a back up without even asking for it.

I've dealt with quite a few other vendors, and while occasionally some come close, MakerGear is still the best in terms of quality, support, and documentation.

Is their documentation different than a commercial product, yes. But these machines are not like typical products that go through years of development, documentation and testing.

Having said that the documentation for all the components and assemblies and printers that MakerGear provides is much better than any other RepRap supplier out there.

The RepRap community benefits from cooperation and helping each other, I know how hard MakerGear works to make their products and I for one really appreciate everything that they have done for our hobby.

Keep up the good work Rick and Karen and everyone else!!!

[lars]

Rick, Karen and the rest of the MG Family.

I have been lurking here for a while, while reading this thread but now I find that I can no more just sit here idle. 

In reading the emails from Jonathan and your extremely patient answers, and I think the line of emails in themselves demonstrate the level of the customer support you give towards your products. Your are an example to follow, and many full blown consumer product companies could learn a lot from this. 

I'm a very happy and satisfied owner of a Mosaic, and they only fault of that machine is that the M2 seems to be even better. 

So, keep it up, and don't let a few nonconstructive rounds of feedback (even if wrapped in polite and nice words) get you down,. When this seems like never ending, keep trusting that doing the right thing, also when responding to this, will just add to the understanding that you run a successful customer focused business and generate even more happy customers, friends and backers  - you have a strong community backing you and your should "live long and prosper". 

Best regards, 

Lars Sørup

[Buck]

I'm with Lars. Good on you!

[DB_Daddy-O]

Thanks A Bunch! I've been looking over all the drawings 5 and 6 times for Z motor bolt size!

 

The drawings are good and the flicker shows are great too, but you realy need a document that guilds you on an order of assembly! I'm an ASE certified mechanic and still found the instructions disjointed.  I simple hyper linked list stepping through a logical order of assembly and fliker shows would go a long way!!

 

DB_Daddy-o

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 5:20:16 PM UTC-4, Doug wrote:

Yeah use the pdf exploded drawings to get the bolt sizes for everything.  I noted these few minor things about the instructions

 

1. The nylon spacers used as stoppers at the ends of the x and y rails are 3/8"OD x 3/8" long, but the drawings say the part has a 3/8" ID

2. I used M3x35 (i think) for the z stepper (you can't re-use the stock screws), I never saw this the instructions but it just made sense given the hardware in the kit

3. Some of the holes in the aluminum plates were tapped so nuts were not needed, example the idler studs 

 

I also got at least one extra bolt for each size I needed to put the machine together.  

   

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:15:28 PM UTC-4, Trevor Lewis wrote:

 Speaking of building an M2, I just have to say...

 Dear Makergearanistas,

  Even though I only ordered my M2 a week ago, oh my god oh my god oh my god hurry up. :)

 Thank you. :)

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Rick Pollack <ri...@makergear.com> wrote:

There are several exploded diagrams on the M2 instructions page and a main assembly file at the bottom of the page.
http://www.makergear.com/pages/m2-assembly-instructions

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 7:46 AM, DB_Daddy-O <dennis....@zoominternet.net> wrote:

Great Graphices on the assembly, and got a big pile of hardware!  But what size screws for what?  I 'm starting to put the feet on but can't find any referance to the screw size I should use.   I'm I missing something that list what sizes go where?

 

DB_Daddy-O

--

 

Failure is just success rounded down. - T-Rex

 

Sent from your iPhone.