Question

[Damian Gto]

I promised that I would post, good or bad about my rep2x.

I made some videos.

Here is one of them and I ask you all to watch it and say what you think.

http://youtu.be/46lkEq0VwMs

Have fun :-P

[Jay]

Damien,

Did you check the plate hot or cold? If cold...try it hot. I got different readings. Looks like you need to put a ticket in with MBI and use rafts until they can send you a new one.

There's a simple fix for the belt...Makerbot has a video on how to tighten.

Jay

[Damian Gto]

It was hot.. When its cold its almost level.

The belt is no go. I did tighten everything in the bot.

I do speak with MBI support now. They are helpful so far :-)

[Jay]

Well...for it not being level hot you can petition MBI for another one, go glass, go phenolic (tufnol), or just use rafts and tram it best you can.

Belt still slips? You didn't get any of that included grease near the belt sprockets did you? Easy to do if you're doing the 50 hour maintenance and aren't careful...

Jay

[Damian Gto]

I making a new video for them. compare to from cold to hot. Its a big different.

So its warps when it gets hot. 

Most of the time I only printed small stuff, but in the begining I did print bigger once and then it was not warped. 

So after some time it start to warp. I only expect it will be worse.

I hope they will change it.

The belt slips under the extruders. About 1mm. I think the stuff that hold the belt is not what it should.

Maybe its a heat issue to. lol.

You can look at it more close here: http://youtu.be/9VR1egjPaM8

[Damian Gto]

Made one more video. http://youtu.be/e8D8F0W8PXA

It show how the build plate is when its cold and when its hot.

When its cold its almost perfect. only 0.05mm in the middle thats different.

But when hot no measurement is the same.

I never could think it could be that much.

If I never use my dial indicator to check the whole build plate when it was 110c I might not seen it.

[Damian Gto]

I have one super fine print. so proud on it.. lol

[Jetguy]

Wait, so there is a new type of error for an x axis failure?
I mean we suspected the X cable failure that happens on the 2X but now
the belt clamp on the X axis also slips?

On May 18, 4:14 pm, Damian Gto <damian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have one super fine print. so proud on it.. lol
>

> <https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-X8kCN8-UxFA/UZfhHcF8bMI/AAAAAAAAAE...>

[Damian Gto]

I am not sure I have seen this before, but its NOT what happend on that picture. I really do not what it was.

The other slip I have is that the belt is not tight on the carriage, as you can see in one of the videos.

Its a very easy fix, but I hope to get it replaced.

[JohnD]

That's skipped steps for sure - just a matter of figuring out what causes it.  How may hours are on your printer now?

[Damian Gto]

Sure its skipped steeps, No idea right now what it is. First and only time it has done that.

Its close to 100 hours.

It has worked good. Even printed at 0.05mm, but use to print at 0.15mm.

But last week the build plate has been worse and worse. I can still print small stuff in the middle of the platform, but on the right side its to bad.

[Damian Gto]

Bad news so far.

MBI do not think the build plate is warped. I guess they think about 0.35mm dipping on 3 corner is okey.

I still hope they will replace this warped build plate......

[Damian Gto]

Even more bad news.

MBI will NOT replace anything for I did NOT buy the makercare, but they would not change the bad part anyway. 

I was free to buy the parts.. no thanks.....

To bad that they now sell the rep2x here in my country.. If i did buy it here they had to replace everything or replace the whole 3d printer.

Yes I am angry and I know it will cost me money to fix things that MBI should fix as they are bad.

All videos was not public, but they will be that now...Thanks for nothing...

[Eighty]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned...

[Damian Gto]

Lol.

Well I could build myself a 3d printerif I wanted, but I wanted to save time, but I guess that will not happen now.

I know what I need to change to make it work like I want. I still think the base is very good, but I am kind of mad that I can not get parts that is bad from manufacturing.

Also the argue about things that I know I have right in.

Also the first time anyone has sad that dial indicator is not a good way to measure with, but a business card is :-P

[Eighty]

Did you send them a picture with a steel ruler placed across the build plate?  I guess I can understand their position with documentation from a dial indicator.  But a steel straight-edge is undeniable. 

[Damian Gto]

Not a picture, but a video with it.

Also I did show how the build plate is when its cold and when its hot.

The warping comes when it is heated up.

At room temperature its only 0.05mm wrong in the middle, but when its 110c then all the build plate is changing.

My theory is that it for its not a solid block, but it has a top part and on the side it has a little re-enforcement.

When the build plate start heating up the material on the top part start to expanding, but the side do not expand the same.

That leads to the side start bending to the force of the top part expansion.

That will cause the build plate to warp on the corners..

Bottom line is that I think that the material has no way to go, due the side is holding it back, but the material must go somewhere and it does. 

So the build plate getting warped when it do get hot.

I guess it can be different on different build plate depending how much stress they have in them.

[Dan Newman]

On 20 May 2013 , at 12:13 PM, Damian Gto wrote:

> Not a picture, but a video with it.
> Also I did show how the build plate is when its cold and when its hot.
> The warping comes when it is heated up.
> At room temperature its only 0.05mm wrong in the middle, but when its 110c
> then all the build plate is changing.
>
> My theory is that it for its not a solid block, but it has a top part and
> on the side it has a little re-enforcement.
> When the build plate start heating up the material on the top part start to
> expanding, but the side do not expand the same.

Even if it were a solid sheet, the sides would behave differently. The
sides radiate heat faster than the center of the sheet and so the center
expands more. Having differing thicknesses just complicates the situation
even more.

And if the plate is bolted down around the perimeter, then the sheet cannot
expand in the horizontal plane. So, the only way it can relieve thermal
stress is along the vertical (Z axis). And thus it crowns (convex) or
bows (concave).

But yes, as you find it has no choice but to crown or bow. I just wanted
to point out that being different thicknesses isn't critical. Folks with
Rep 1 Al plates had the same issue.

Dan

[Damian Gto]

Thanks for the infill :-)

You just confirm what I have belived since I got my printer.

I did think it was a strange way to build something that shall be heated up.

And after I looked more close to it, it made the picture more clear and there is little chance the build platform can be flat when it has been heated up, if its flat when its cold.

That leaves me to an other question.

I do not know how they make them, but if they made them when they are about 120c and they are flat at that time, then I can believe it would be little warped when it do cool down, but retake the shape when it is heated up. ITs kind of how F1 engine and other high performance engine works.

Or do have that totally wrong?

[Damian Gto]

Well now the rest of the printer broke.

I guess the MBI got it right about the cable.

So it was going from bad to worse. Now I can even print with it.. bhaaa..

I hate mondays...

[Jay]

Damien's To-Do list for Tuesday

 

1. Go to framing shop and buy piece of glass same size as bp. (5-6 euro)

2. Go to Office Supply store and buy a box of binder clips (5-6 euro)

3. Go by Apothocary Shop and buy some unscented hair spray

4. Pull out X cable and do the 'patch and hang' mod

5. Start print.

6. Call MBI and order the cable set ($16 USD...heck...order two like I did)

 

Now with this you should be good to go until cable comes in...also check with whoever carries Makerbot on the Continent and see if THEY have parts or if their coming from Brooklyn, NY....

 

Jay

 

PS...make sure it's really the cable. MBI said mine was but it was actually a loose botstep. Just like when they said my TC was bad and it was just loose on the mighty board. So far both my errors were just loose connecters (knock wood)....but I plan on keeping spare cables (got) and a spare TC (on order).....just in case.

 

PSS...since you'll have it apart later you might want to go ahead and get the exfruder upgrade. My left (which was my primary) after finishing every 3 prints or so has to be unloaed and loaded. Figure I got crap in the drag wheel but I haven't cracked it open yet.

[Damian Gto]

Thanks.

1. Is that glass not to thin? I have seen other use 6-8mm?

2. Urk hate those.

3. I guess I have some stuff here that I can try :-P

4. I guess its the white cable on the side that is broke? I can look if I have something like that here or any flat cable for hard drives.

5. Sounds good.

6. They already told me that they will send one, im sure I will not pay them anything for things they should replace for free.

P.S Since 1 month back they sell them in an online shop here. If I have waited I could have bought it there and get the warrant we do have here.

Then this problem I do have would not been a problem. They are forced by our law to replace them.

 

I guess its the cable. After MBI did say it was bad I did look at it and I did move it little to check it. After that it did not work anymore.So I am sure it must have been that.

Also I can make my own cable if I want as long it is not any special cable.

P.SS

My "exfruder" works fine. So far they have never failed. I did take one apart and looked at it. it was very very very little plastic dust there. So I guess it do not slip yet.

So far I have never needed to unload filament more then I change colors. But if one fail I got one more extruder so I can print out a upgrade.

Thanks for the list and help :-)

[Bottleworks]

What you described is one of the reasons why I designed that new build platform.

[Damian Gto]

Yes I understand that. Both of your project is a good upgrade.
But I want to build something myself to get it better than it is now. Right now I do looking into carbon fiber. It's more easy for me to work with. I was printing some stuff I needed for it when the cable broke. Maybe the printer dud not want to be better. Lol

[Damian Gto]

Well I have done nr:4.

I just cut the cable and replace it with one I had here.

I also looked more close to this.

Who the hell has design this part?

Its not question if it break, rather when it do break.

Even if you pull the pin and put the cable in the other way and put the pin back, you would release a lot of stress on the cable.

But I think you need have a cable that is made for bending a lot of time.

Those cables is NOT. Its just a normal cable with basic quality. Not even copper.

Even when I get a new cable from MBI I will look onto other high quality cables and see if I can make it better, should not be that hard ;-)

I also do nr:5 now. Printing one of my project for cooling the filament :-)

The funny part is that I start to see a more advanced system for the filament that will take care of much problem. lol

I will never do nr:6. Why would I pay $16 for a cable I can buy in any electronic shop for maybe a couple of $ and has higher quality?

[JohnD]

I think you probably should go back and edit a number of your previous posts regarding MBI build quality now that you are experiencing it first hand.. 

[Jay]

Damien,

Pretty sure that cable is NOT a standardized one. I think Dan or Drone Pump looked into it and it's proprietary. I could be wrong...anyone?

Jay

[Jay]

John....I was waiting on someone to say that~!!  

             _                                         _,,,,
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                                                        ____/c = o=
                       \|//                      *    _/   | /\__C/
                     -/_ /            ,-.   *       _/ \    \__  ___
                       _\\_           |  \    *  __/    \  -/ O\/'_ \
                       \_  \          x  |   *  /  \____,\______\/  '
              /\_,///   >   )         \_  \     #     _/_\/
             / ,/   +\ /   /         _/ )_/     \     \  \
             \__|+ O  )  \/        _/ \/         \_    \  \
                /\__D/    \      _/    )         _>   ,)   )
                 /  _   o  \   _/,   _/        _/     /     \
                /   /       ,_/   __/         /_ .  _/ \_   _\
               /   / \    o//    _/           /_\__/     \_/ \
              /__o/   \___|    _/            / x(          \/ '-,__
              _//       \__ __/\             \  x\          |______\
              \  \>       \     \             \  |
              // |         \__   \             '-'
                            /    /
                            \___(
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[Joseph Chiu]

I saw the cable at MakerFaire.  It looked like standard ribbon cable going to latched square-post connectors, but with crimped connectors at the wire ends.  It should be possible to make an emergency "patch kit" without having to strip and solder wires.

If anyone wants to send me their broken cable harness, I'll be glad to investigate this more closely.  

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[Damian Gto]

ITs look like a normal cable to me. Its also a broad cable that they have splitted. I can buy those for about 1$/meter.

They are hard and not soft like they should be. That will mean they will break at some point. Just for the material can not stand the stress.

Sure I think MBI has taken some shortcut in quality on some part, but overall I still think its not worse then others.

[Dan Newman]

On 21 May 2013 , at 8:10 AM, Jay wrote:

> Damien,
>
> Pretty sure that cable is NOT a standardized one. I think Dan or Drone Pump

> looked into it and it's proprietary. I could be wrong…anyone?

Wasn't me.

Dan

[Damian Gto]

Well  I think is fair to tell that MBI has changed there mind. I got an other person from support. So will get a new build plate and wires and we will check some other stuff so they will replace if they are bad. I am glad they changed there mind. Good work MBI. 

[Jay]

It was David Kessener....he had a long post about repairing the cable...but it doesn't specifically state is proprietary (my bad) but it is a PITA to make your own...

Jay

[Damian Gto]

Its not that hard to do, but you need to know what you are doing. For me I can make this in my sleep ;-)

[James Spencer]

I'm sorry to hear you have problems with the new machine. Please keep
in mind that Makerbot has sold thousands of machines and we mostly
hear complaints on this forum because most people do not have
problems. Also keep in mind that there is probably less than a .02
percent failure rate as that is the rate most companies have assomone
on this group pointed out a few months ago. I forgot who this was. So
don't worry or be upset as you actually received a machine instead of
a parrot and makerbot would never send you a machine with problems
because what would be the chances of that happening?

> > I still hope they will replace this warped build plate......- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Damian Gto]

Well I do not know if you did read the rest of the tread.

Things seems to be sorted out after I did get a new person on the support.

What I was mad about was the lack of understanding and knowledge from the first person.

I do not know if it was the person or she has been told to do this. I rather think on the first.

I made a couple of videos and you must be blind not to see the problem I had, but this person did not see anything.

On the positive side the person pointed out the wire that I did not know I had problem with.

The second person I got did take a look at the videos and did see all problem.

Ha also ask me to test some stuff (botstep etc) But I did not find anything wrong with them.

I also made a video more close to one problem and it was clear it was bad. 

So I do get the parts that was bad replaced.

So I just can say MBI turned a bad experience to a good one.

of course I am not mad anymore. For in the end MBI sort things out and I get my printer fixed.

[Damian Gto]

Well I also got my carbon fiber stuff. :-)

Time to have some fun and see if my thought is right.

[Damian Gto]

Today MBI sending me all parts I needed.

I also got the lid and a role of PLA. lol.

I guess I have to do some experiment now :-)

[Damian Gto]

Dam my kapton tape is finished.

But I did find a solution.

My build plate is warped so I can only print in the middle of it so I do not care much about it.

So I did remove the kapton tape that was left and did go and look for some hair gele here.

I did find this:

Guess what?

It do work to print ABS on :-P

[Damian Gto]

Today I got the parts for the once that was bad.

The cable was the same(white/gray) as it was in it. I have not changed it. I will have it as spare or change it when I see that my cable stress system do work like I know it should.

The carriage was better, but it still has a little slipping if you hold the belt and move the carriage. The solution I made was put shims between the belt and the upper plastic part that press down on the belt. After that it did work like it should do.

So far it was okey and things I could handle without problem.

BUT, the build plate I got instead of the warped one, is also bad. 

Even this build plat is okey when its cold, but warps when its hot. The middle warps around 0.05mm, so that is not to bad.

But the corners is almost as bad then the last one. So I guess I had right in my theory why it do happen.

2 build plate with the same fault and most measurement I do is not far from the older one.

So I guess I will go and buy me a glass plate and have some fun with carbon fiber :-P

[JohnD]

Hey Damian, I posted a question in another thread - I thought you had already successfully printed PLA on your 2x?  I ask becasue I am unable to on the one the school just got.

[Damian Gto]

I have done some test prints, so I know it works, but it needed a fan to cool the PLA down. I did nit had much PLA, but makerbot did send me a role of PLA, so I will make some stuff with it and maybe do a design for the fans to cool down the PLA.

[Damian Gto]

After some test with the new build plate that also get warped when it is warm I have found out some explanation why it gets warped.

I did send my findings to MBI to see if they can confirm what I have found.

You can not believe how simple it is. With more test I might even get the whole plate flat. 

One corner that I did measure that it was about 0.45mm from the nozzle, when it should be 0.15mm is about 0.2mm now.

The middle is still 0.05mm closer to the nozzle.

That means that the whole plate is warped max 0.1mm right now, compare with 0.35mm that it was before :-)

[Eighty]

Damian,
So are you going to share the details?

[Damian Gto]

Ï want to make some more test, to be sure and I also want MBI to check it out before I will post it.

I also want to test some different solution to solve the findings.

But it should not take more then a day or something.

[JohnD]

Any updates here?

[Damian Gto]

I'm not home right now. I have not got anything from MBI. Maybe I post it later anyway;-)

[Damian Gto]

Okey.
This is way the build plate do warp.
As I did suspect it's has to do with different temp on different area on the build plate.

Some warping is caused on the material on the side of the build plate. But that was not the big problem.
The BIG problem is the 4 screws in the bottom. Those goes trough a metal plate and goes into the top build plate. The BIG problem is that the top is a lot warmer then the bottom. Also they are made of different material. On top of that the aluminum plate has the heater element glued on it. Then you got a material that insulate the bottom steel plate from heat.
All together makes is impossible to maintain a flat build plate.
When I did remove the 4 screws the top plate could move free and when it did the warping did not occur.

Do remove the screws and the build plate will stay flat.

So this is a huge design flaw.

[Damian Gto]

As it is a design flaw I wanted MBI to test it so they could confirm it. But so far they have not answer.
So I gave them a chance and now you all know about it.

I am not home and I had no time to come up with a solution for it.
I do think of using magnets or put screws on the side corners to hold the parts together.
Right now they are loose, but I can print on it. But I guess it can move and destroy the print.
Maybe you can use clamps on the side to

[3DwannaB]

Design Flaw?! I am sorry, but I cannot see how a big company like Makerbot could do that. You must be incorrect.

[Damian Gto]

When the screws is gone the build plate is not warped when it's warm. With the screws the build plate is warped and the corners are dipping 25mm+.
I have checked this with the 2 build plate I got. Both are warped when hot, but they are almost flat without the screws.
I can only call that a design flaw.
It also make sense if you think about it.
2 different material. 2 different temperature. The hotter area will expand more then the cold, but they are screwed together. Of course the hotter area will bend in any direction that is possible.

[3DwannaB]

So you are stating that you know better then the Enginears they have at a company Like Makerbot? I cannot see that!

[Eighty]

Damian,
I can't see how The MBI design team would miss such an obvious flaw. You must be mistaken.

P.S. - Please Google Irony

[Joseph Chiu]

This would be a good excuse to play with rafts... I know you are not a fan, but might as well try it?

On May 18, 2013 2:53 PM, "Damian Gto" <dami...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure its skipped steeps, No idea right now what it is. First and only time it has done that.

Its close to 100 hours.

It has worked good. Even printed at 0.05mm, but use to print at 0.15mm.

But last week the build plate has been worse and worse. I can still print small stuff in the middle of the platform, but on the right side its to bad.

On Saturday, May 18, 2013 11:46:45 PM UTC+2, JohnD wrote:

That's skipped steps for sure - just a matter of figuring out what causes it.  How may hours are on your printer now?

On Saturday, May 18, 2013 10:13:04 PM UTC+1, Damian Gto wrote:

I am not sure I have seen this before, but its NOT what happend on that picture. I really do not what it was.

The other slip I have is that the belt is not tight on the carriage, as you can see in one of the videos.

Its a very easy fix, but I hope to get it replaced.

On Saturday, May 18, 2013 11:01:21 PM UTC+2, Jetguy wrote:

Wait, so there is a new type of error for an x axis failure?
I mean we suspected the X cable failure that happens on the 2X but now
the belt clamp on the X axis also slips?




On May 18, 4:14 pm, Damian Gto <damian...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have one super fine print. so proud on it.. lol
>
> <https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-X8kCN8-UxFA/UZfhHcF8bMI/AAAAAAAAAE...>

[SMT Guy Austin, Texas]

Is this the same issue they have communicated about for a while to make sure the screws and nuts were to be left loose on the HBP to lessen warping?

Or am I misunderstanding the cause?

[Jetguy]

Sorry, that was for a different machine. Same concept more or less,
but different mounting system.


On Jun 4, 9:47 pm, "SMT Guy Austin, Texas" <br...@austinmfg.com>
wrote: