Thing-O-Matic Extruder Motor Dies

[krst]

Got my ToM finally together, and started a series of calibration
prints. While initially successful, longer prints would fail as the
extruder MK5 would stop extruding. The motor wasn't turning. It would
come back to life with an appropriate number of resets, firmware
uploads, etc., but finally stopped working entirely and could not be
coaxed back to life.

Checked the volts at the extruder board and found it pushes -+12V on
terminals 1A/B correctly when Forward/Backward triggered, but the
motor simply wouldn't turn. Tried various resets, etc., and eventually
contacted support, as I suspect I have a motor from a bad batch.

Fortunately, I have a Cupcake nearby with an identical MK5 motor, so I
swapped it in and everything's working fine now. (Well, check with me
later for certainty!) If the replacement motor survives, then I must
conclude the original motor failed.

[Linkreincarnate]

I just had the same issue. I'm contacting support about it.

[Linkreincarnate]

Mine just died mid print.

On Dec 28, 11:25 pm, krst <kerry.steven...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Boris Camelo]

In skeinforge your pwm is?

In my case, 255 work fine. With diferent number fail?

Boris Camelo

2010/12/29 Linkreincarnate <linkrei...@gmail.com>

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[Kevin Rogers]

I've got a Cupcake and I've had intermittent extruder motor problems coupled with various other problems since day one. I have yet to make a successful print but I just ordered a new motor and extruder board to start over. I should have contacted support but I also wanted to figure it out myself.

[Linkreincarnate]

255.

On Dec 29, 11:25 pm, Boris Camelo <bgc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In skeinforge your pwm is?
>
> In my case, 255 work fine. With diferent number fail?
>
> Boris Camelo
>

> 2010/12/29 Linkreincarnate <linkreincarn...@gmail.com>

>
> > Mine just died mid print.
>
> > On Dec 28, 11:25 pm, krst <kerry.steven...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Got my ToM finally together, and started a series of calibration
> > > prints. While initially successful, longer prints would fail as the
> > > extruder MK5 would stop extruding. The motor wasn't turning. It would
> > > come back to life with an appropriate number of resets, firmware
> > > uploads, etc., but finally stopped working entirely and could not be
> > > coaxed back to life.
>
> > > Checked the volts at the extruder board and found it pushes -+12V on
> > > terminals 1A/B correctly when Forward/Backward triggered, but the
> > > motor simply wouldn't turn. Tried various resets, etc., and eventually
> > > contacted support, as I suspect I have a motor from a bad batch.
>
> > > Fortunately, I have a Cupcake nearby with an identical MK5 motor, so I
> > > swapped it in and everything's working fine now. (Well, check with me
> > > later for certainty!) If the replacement motor survives, then I must
> > > conclude the original motor failed.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "MakerBot Operators" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to make...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com<makerbot%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[makeme]

Yeah, I think I just ran into that problem. My motor simply stopped
doing the one thing it's supposed to do a few minutes into a print.
After stopping the print I couldn't get it to turn from the control
panel. I got kind of irritated and shut everything down, so maybe when
I go back to it the reset will 'fix' everything.

[krst]

I've been using only 255.

Note - since replacing the motor with the (supposedly) identical one
from my old MK5, the ToM prints flawlessly. Curiously, the old motor
is quite a bit noisier than the new ToM MK5. Obviously there's
something different with this batch.

I managed to coax the new ToM motor to turn by plugging it directly
into a 12V source, but I don't want to put it back into the ToM.

On Dec 29, 10:25 pm, Boris Camelo <bgc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In skeinforge your pwm is?
>
> In my case, 255 work fine. With diferent number fail?
>
> Boris Camelo
>

> 2010/12/29 Linkreincarnate <linkreincarn...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Mine just died mid print.
>
> > On Dec 28, 11:25 pm, krst <kerry.steven...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Got my ToM finally together, and started a series of calibration
> > > prints. While initially successful, longer prints would fail as the
> > > extruder MK5 would stop extruding. The motor wasn't turning. It would
> > > come back to life with an appropriate number of resets, firmware
> > > uploads, etc., but finally stopped working entirely and could not be
> > > coaxed back to life.
>
> > > Checked the volts at the extruder board and found it pushes -+12V on
> > > terminals 1A/B correctly when Forward/Backward triggered, but the
> > > motor simply wouldn't turn. Tried various resets, etc., and eventually
> > > contacted support, as I suspect I have a motor from a bad batch.
>
> > > Fortunately, I have a Cupcake nearby with an identical MK5 motor, so I
> > > swapped it in and everything's working fine now. (Well, check with me
> > > later for certainty!) If the replacement motor survives, then I must
> > > conclude the original motor failed.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "MakerBot Operators" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to make...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > makerbot+u...@googlegroups.com<makerbot%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.c om>
> > .

[Gabe]

I had a very similar issues but I think it's a controller issue.

Here's a copy of the email I sent to Makerbot.

**********************

So I built my ToM in two evenings and everything went together as it
should and worked right off the bat. I was like "Yay!". The I printed
some of the basic calibration objects and they came out great and I
was like "awesome". Then I was trying some raftless objects and the
extruder drive died 1/2 way through my 20mm cube and I was like "WTF"?

The motor spun fine on a 7.2v LiPo battery. So I then put a voltmeter
on the motor lines from the extruder controller and it shows 12.2v.
However it down not seem to put out enough amperage to spin the motor.
It will, on occasion, sort of cough and sputter for a few seconds but
then dies again. I was watching the amps during this and the
controller never put out more than .15 amps which was just enough to
make the motor sort of move, but then it would drop to about .05 amps
which wasn't enough to make the motor spin anymore.

I assume this controller should be capable of putting out at least an
amp or so. Following this assumption I would presume I have a bad
extruder controller.

***********************

[Gabe]

Looks like others are having the same issues.

http://wiki.makerbot.com/forum/t-294403/thing-o-matic-extruder-controller-problem

[makeme]

On Dec 31 2010, 3:28 pm, Gabe <gabe.deva...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Looks like others are having the same issues.

Me too!
http://support.makerbot.com/entries/373702-extruder-troubleshooting

I didn't get a chance to check the amps coming out of the controller
(it was next on my list) because now the controller isn't putting out
ANY voltage during extrusion.

Looking over the information on the extruder controller:
http://wiki.makerbot.com/thingomatic-doc:extruder-controller-3-6
Am I correct in thinking that the "power mosfets" are described as
"These MOSFETS don't even break a sweat when controlling demanding
loads like the MK5 extruder or the Thingomatic Heated Build Platform.
Both of those can draw upwards of 5A at 12v" BUT, it doesn't look like
the extruder motor gets those. "The extruder controller has an H-
bridge on it that can control a single DC motor, such as the motor for
a MK5 Plastruder...The power MOSFETs are what control the extruder
heater, build platform heater, and the conveyor belt motor."

Does one of the power mosfets do double duty for the extruder motor as
well? This image doesn't have enough resolution to be sure what some
of those tiny labels are
http://thingiverse-production.s3.amazonaws.com/renders/86/b3/a3/c4/25/extruder-controller_display_medium.jpg

At any rate, I found some documentation for the A3949 used on the
board.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=620-1131-1-ND
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Part_Numbers/3949/3949.pdf

I also found references to that exact chip burning out and requiring
replacement on the older extruder controller board.
http://blog.makerbot.com/2010/10/11/how-to-fix-your-burned-extruder-board/#comments

Can anyone shed some light on this? Is there a way to test the chip
and find out whether or not it's still good?

[Rich]

Just chiming in: I have also lost use of my extruder motor.
Not fun after putting so much work into assembly and calibration.

On Jan 2, 11:27 am, makeme <bluebac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 31 2010, 3:28 pm, Gabe <gabe.deva...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Looks like others are having the same issues.
>

> Me too!http://support.makerbot.com/entries/373702-extruder-troubleshooting

>
> I didn't get a chance to check the amps coming out of the controller
> (it was next on my list) because now the controller isn't putting out
> ANY voltage during extrusion.
>
> Looking over the information on the extruder controller:http://wiki.makerbot.com/thingomatic-doc:extruder-controller-3-6
> Am I correct in thinking that the "power mosfets" are described as
> "These MOSFETS don't even break a sweat when controlling demanding
> loads like the MK5 extruder or the Thingomatic Heated Build Platform.
> Both of those can draw upwards of 5A at 12v" BUT, it doesn't look like
> the extruder motor gets those. "The extruder controller has an H-
> bridge on it that can control a single DC motor, such as the motor for
> a MK5 Plastruder...The power MOSFETs are what control the extruder
> heater, build platform heater, and the conveyor belt motor."
>
> Does one of the power mosfets do double duty for the extruder motor as
> well? This image doesn't have enough resolution to be sure what some

> of those tiny labels arehttp://thingiverse-production.s3.amazonaws.com/renders/86/b3/a3/c4/25...

>
> At any rate, I found some documentation for the A3949 used on the

> board.http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=620-...http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Part_Numbers/3949/3949.pdf

>
> I also found references to that exact chip burning out and requiring

> replacement on the older extruder controller board.http://blog.makerbot.com/2010/10/11/how-to-fix-your-burned-extruder-b...

[krst]

I've now been running on my old MK5 motor for a while - with no issues
whatsoever, many successful prints without motor stalls. (Well,
excluding the incessant curling that I can't shake, but that's another
issue.) I'm convinced it's a motor issue, for now.

[GodfatherUr]

I as well am experiencing this issue. I have followed the advice
given to me of adding a 5-10w resistor in line with the motor and that
seems to help, however it does not appear to be fool proof to say the
least. I am now experiencing this occurrence less, however it still
does happen in the middle of a print. But what I am noticing now is
that rather than quiting all together she will stop anywhere from 2 -
5 seconds or so at a time, and pick up again afterwards. Odd in my
opinion.

I am now plagued with a new problem however. Last night while
printing, my ToM randomly appeared to invert the z axis in mid print
and started to penetrate into the print. Has anyone else experienced
this? If so any possible solutions?

On Jan 2, 10:14 pm, coasterman-1674 <coaster...@live.com> wrote:
> I've had this problem with my Cupcake's old motor (which is now dying
> and running slower and slower), but it has never let me down during a
> print, and i just had to let it chill out for a minute and then it'd
> be back up. About it dying, I think I basically killed it after
> running PLA through it while producing Christmas presents and I think
> I wore out the gear train. I printed a conpanion cube and noticed how
> the infill was not like normal. The old MK4 had run it's last print.
> It served me well and has been reliable for months. It is now retired
> and watches on the bench as the MK5 replaces it.
>
> I've heard about the Great Motor Mystery... You may have been a
> victim. The motors coming from Kysan have been acting freaky lately...

[Andrew Plumb]

What are your extruder heater's PID settings set to?

Check them against the recommended defaults listed in the calibration page; make them the same if they aren't already: http://wiki.makerbot.com/thingomatic-doc:calibration

Re. The z-axis inversion, what model were you trying to print and which version of skeinforge were you using (selected in the GCode - Choose GCode generator menu item) to slice it into gcode?

Are you printing directly over the USB cable or buffering to the SD card?  For long duration and/or complex models I'd highly recommend printing off SD so there's no chance of comms channel saturation or other host-side issues messing things up.

Andrew.

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[COMPNETDOC]

DrDaves MK4 MK5 Extruder Motor Drive Solution - Motor Mystery SOLVED -
THE FIX -
Adding Driver Relays allow full current to extruder motor using
current electronics
The prob is brushes on the motors shorting to 2 ohms - i caught mine
in the act.
In addidion to the 8 ohm 10w resistor i also suggest using 2 12 v SPST
relays
to create a relay driver for the extruder motor.
On the Side from the current extruder controller:
Use 2 Diodes to energise the relays based on CWW or CCW drive from the
2 wires from extruder drive bd.
(connect one diode + side to the coil on one relay and the other
diodes - to the other relay coil) EG +- enegerises 1 relay and -+ the
other. (+- out from Hbridge energises relay1, -+ from hbridge
energises relay2)
On the output side of the relays:
connect common on the each relay to the current extruder motor wires.
(Put the 8 ohm 10W inline on 1 side if you want to) - connect the NO
to + and NC contacts to - and + from power supply on both relays the
same - NC is GND of 12 v
At rest, both relays are inactive. the motor does not turn as both NC
contacts are gnd.
With Hbridge out +-12, one relay energises and provides +- out with
full PS current.
With Hbridge out -+12 the other relay provides -+ out with full motor
current.
As the motors are really cheep and kinda prone to drive issues this
will protect your controller electronics AND let the motor power
through the temp "low resistance" short condition that would be hard
on any semiconductor drive :)
try it you WILL like it. Cheep too, and it adds to the music of the
cupcake.
Also makes the damn thing work like a charm. - drd...@compnetdoc.com
Engineering and inventing since 1977

[Dithermaster]

I also added a single relay, without any diodes. I modified the
end.gcode to not "reverse" when its done since now both forward and
reverse run my motor forward. Works like a champ, but the clicky-
click during fills is annoying (you'd think one of the skeinforge
modules would notice the ultra-short stop/starts and remove them).

I used a 12VDC 30A automotive relay and just mounted it at above all
the other electronics.

///d@
MakerBot Cupcake #2191 (MK5, ABP)

[bfeist]

Hi all,

I tried to follow COMPNETDOC's written guide to create the reversible relay circuit but couldn't figure it out. I found this helpful diagram on a forum: http://www.electro-tech-online.com/electronic-projects-design-ideas-reviews/42524-how-can-i-reverse-polarity-motor-using-relays-2.html#post748946

Works like a charm. Thanks for the relay suggestion!

I used 30A 12V automotive relays and 6A rectifier diodes. Overkill but the relays were cheap at my local surplus store.

Ben

[SirIronDuke]

Putting relays on the DC motor will solve some issues, but eventualy the DC motor WILL die. and unless its protected with relays it will take the extruder controller with it.

I highly suggest switch to a stepper motor. youl be able to do much finer layers and use acceleration. im using gen3 cupcake electronics, a stepper extruder and my MK5 heater. I can go down to 0.01mm layer height. the only things ive changed since I began was the extruder motor, added the 3G5D card, and a 0.4mm nozzle. and im still using 3mm abs material.

ive since then also upgraded my cupcakes frame to a type A. but that's a different matter.