Mosaic vs ToM

[Bob Sponsler]

Dilemma: ordered a makerbot ToM am halfway through my 4 week lead
time and they announce the mosaic at the maker gear site that looks
pretty slick and is significantly cheaper. Do I cancel my order and
buy a mosaic which is being billed as better than ToM for the cost of
a cupcake or do I stick with the tried and tested ToM? What would you
guys do?

[Zip Zap]

When in doubt, cancel if you still can.

---

From: Bob Sponsler <bobsp...@gmail.com>
To: MakerBot Operators <make...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, June 3, 2011 8:46:29 AM
Subject: [MakerBot] Mosaic vs ToM

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[Wilson]

Mosaic all the way!

[Whosawhatsis]

The mosaic looks like a pretty good makerbot competitor from the
limited information available, but without at LEAST a higher
resolution photo, I wouldn't consider ordering one. Canceling now
would allow you to take a wait-and-see approach, though.

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[James McCracken]

I agree. Looks good. But there are no great pictures (frankly, in
the picture they have, I have a hard time figuring out what's IN the
bot and what's BEHIND the bot!!)

And noone has used one yet. Cancel the TOM if you think you'd like to
take the plunge, but let someone who already has at least one working
3D printer try it out. They'll work through issues faster, be better
prepared to correct minor mistakes or mis-cuts... and can print out
pieces if they need to to fix it. I would not recommend, as a newbie,
being one of the first ones with a new kit...

Now what would I do? I'd keep the TOM order in and let it go
through... you'll almost certainly have it in hand before the Mosaic
starts shipping, and with build documentation that has been tested and
adjusted quite a few times...

[Ross Mosshart]

About the only thing I see that the TOM has over the Mosaic (as far as from my perspective is concerned)  is RepG and its direct integration with skeinforge. At the moment with RAMPS you have to use RepSnapper (or maybe RepRap Host? Not sure about RR host.) And gCode from SF in order to print.

On Jun 3, 2011 12:47 PM, "James McCracken" <merl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree.  Looks good.  But there are no great pictures (frankly, in
the picture they have, I have a hard time figuring out what's IN the
bot and what's BEHIND the bot!!)

And noone has used one yet.  Cancel the TOM if you think you'd like to
take the plunge, but let someone who already has at least one working
3D printer try it out.  They'll work through issues faster, be better
prepared to correct minor mistakes or mis-cuts... and can print out
pieces if they need to to fix it.  I would not recommend, as a newbie,
being one of the first ones with a new kit...

Now what would I do?  I'd keep the TOM order in and let it go
through... you'll almost certainly have it in hand before the Mosaic
starts shipping, and with build documentation that has been tested and
adjusted quite a few times...

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 11:54 AM, Whosawhatsis <whosaw...@gmail.com> wrote: > The mosaic looks li...

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[Whosawhatsis]

RepG 25 has drivers for RAMPS running 5D, Klimentkip or Teacup.

[James McCracken]

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Ross Mosshart <ross.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> About the only thing I see that the TOM has over the Mosaic (as far as from
> my perspective is concerned)  is RepG and its direct integration with
> skeinforge. At the moment with RAMPS you have to use RepSnapper (or maybe
> RepRap Host? Not sure about RR host.) And gCode from SF in order to print.

You're basing that assessment on one low res picture and a textual
description of what's included with the kit...

Not that its a bad or wrong assessment in any way; just that you have
no way of really comparing an actual TOM with an actual Mosaic. I
concede that linear rails will probably work better than smooth rod,
and that its got a larger build area, and so on... but the machine is
still very much just an idea in a few people's heads, there's no way
to compare actual performance at this point in time, so I think saying
that either is better than the other in anything OTHER than the
software path would be a bit premature...

[Mike Payson]

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Ross Mosshart <ross.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

About the only thing I see that the TOM has over the Mosaic (as far as from my perspective is concerned)  is RepG and its direct integration with skeinforge. At the moment with RAMPS you have to use RepSnapper (or maybe RepRap Host? Not sure about RR host.) And gCode from SF in order to print.

Heh, you say that as if you thought RepG was an advantage. Repsnapper may be ugly, and it may take one more step (launch Skeinforge, press "Skeinforge", close skeinforge), but unlike RepG, Skeinforge is stable. When I used RepG (I think the last version I tried was 23) it would lock up on me regularly. 

[Z LeHericy]

i've never had RepG or the skienforge built in to it lock up! It works great, and has a great interface! the only thing i could ask for is the addition of an ability to position multiple parts for simultanious printing, similar to what the big name machines do.
-Zeno LeHericy

//((=:Z:=))\\
INVENTIONS
Technologies
zinventions.com

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[Mike Payson]

FYI, another photo: http://yfrog.com/z/gz88hpwnj 

But you are ignoring one other BIG source of information: History. We know that Makergear has a history of putting out great products and standing behind the products that he sells. Makerbot is good about replacing things when they fail, but less good about designing them not to fail in the first place.

If both printers were the same price, I would tend to agree, we don't know enough to be 100% certain. But between the Makergear reputation and the fact that it is $300-$500 less for a larger print area, I personally think the Mosaic is a no brainer. 

[ddurant]

> You're basing that assessment on one low res picture and a textual description of what's included with the kit...

 

MakerGear's reputation probably comes into it, too. They've earned a lot of benefit-of-the-doubt with a lot of people over the years. That said, I'd also like to see more info and discussion on this machine, preferably not in a MBI-specific forum.

 

http://3dprinterforum.org/ maybe?

[learned nerd]

$999 vs. $1299.... as a noob i would go with a ToM!

the community, support, history , etc is well worth the $300 difference in price.

not to mention my ToM worked flawlessly outta the box....prints amazing ... i dont have to adjust , tamper , figure anything out.... i just design / print / enjoy / repeat!

dont think this would be the case with a brand new product...

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[JohnA.]

> http://3dprinterforum.org/maybe?

New MakerGear subsection in the Hardware Forum:

http://3dprinterforum.org/viewforum.php?f=11

JohnA.

[Bob Sponsler]

Thanks you guys! I appreciate all of your points. Ultimately I agree
that the intangible value of the ToM, it's established user base, the
fact that so many people have already beat this thing to hell so that
I can come in as a buck newbie and potentially be able to print out of
the box is pretty big. I guess its a lot like deciding between a ToM
and a Mendel with all newest generation parts... In the right hands -
maybe - the Mendel/mosaic could print as well or better (arguably at
that) for less up front money but in order to be one of those with the
"right hands" I need to start somewhere - so then the safest bet is
the most reliable one. If I were to go on a cross country road trip
do I want a Honda or a Jaguar? One is slick and cool, the other just
plain works and if it doesn't there are lots more people who can help
you fix the Honda. I'm keeping the ToM order... Then someday I'll
print my own uber-bot with all the latest whosits and whatsits and
gadgets - when I know how to use them. :)

Thanks again! Now if my damn bot will just get here already!

-bob

[Zip Zap]

I'm currently having a discussion of this board about the potential benefits of higher Skeinforge versions.  The Standard being version 6 v.s the latest for Cupcake being version 35.  When it comes to Version 39, it only has a reference in the menu to a ThingOMatic.  It's beginning to creep upon me that ThingOMatic was built to better express the latest and highest versions of Skeinforge.  To use the car analogy below, the Honda chassis will rip apart under the load of a roaring Jaguar engine. 

---

From: Bob Sponsler <bobsp...@gmail.com>
To: MakerBot Operators <make...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Fri, June 3, 2011 1:19:43 PM
Subject: [MakerBot] Re: Mosaic vs ToM

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[ddurant]

> I'm currently having a discussion of this board about the potential benefits of higher Skeinforge versions

 

Unless you want to bring RepRap into this, skeinforge isn't overly useful in comparing these machines.

 

Not until people (finally) get up to skeinforge 40 anyway, which has been out since February.

[ddurant]

> $999 vs. $1299.... as a noob i would go with a ToM!

 

Because it costs more??

 

Have you seen the Ultimaker? It's quite nice and costs even more.

 

[Rift]

lmfao dave I think id get all 3 under that logic.

[Bob Sponsler]

Actually Dave the idea of spending more on the ToM is painful, I'm not
rich, every dollar I have matters a lot and I did research the
Ultimaker. The truth is I am weighing a lot more than upfront costs
here, my time is valuable to me too. If buying the ToM (even if it's
a little overpriced - which I think it is comparatively), means there
will be less time spent ordering new parts, scratching my head hunting
bugs etc, that's worth 300 bucks to me. It's an established product
with a vital built-in community. I was briefly distracted by a new
product that happened to be coming out while I am in mid-order and
needed to be reminded of how I came to decide on the ToM in the first
place, which these people jave helped me to do.

[Mike Payson]

Hi Bob, 

If you are concerned with these sorts of questions, I strongly urge you to stop in to the Makergear IRC channel before making your decision. I suspect if you hang out there for a while, you will rapidly lose any concerns you have. Makergear has the best reputation in the community for a reason: They make great products and they stand behind them. If you are unfamiliar with IRC, you can find out how to connect at:

http://www.makergear.com/blogs/frontpage/1787932-makergear-irc-channel

Mike

[Bob Sponsler]

Ill check it out, thanks Mike

[ddurant]

> every dollar I have matters a lot

 

I wasn't saying they don't!! My comment was just poking fun at learned nerd for saying this:

 

> $999 vs. $1299.... as a noob i would go with a ToM!

 

...which sounded to me like he was saying more expensive is better, in an of itself.

 

Anyway, do as much research as you can stomach.

[Bob Sponsler]

Ah, sorry didn't get that at first :) Thanks Dave, will do!

[learned nerd]

not cuz it costs more.. the price difference is small enough not to worry about considering the benefits of the MBI community-- it;s explained in the post

 

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[B Stott]

Ok - I'm a few months newby too. I've got an MBI T-O-M. I had some problems. I Am Not Complaining. I've been like an excited little kid for over 5 months. I'm over 50 with my own kids who are playing with this thing too. I waited for months on the lead time. I fretted like you and was about to cancel then.... it was at the door.

From the opening, to the spreading, to the reading, to the assembly, and reading, and fixing, and tricking, and learning, and printing, back to the fiddling, to the arguing, to the help, to the learning, to the forums, to the MBI support staff for hand holding and discussions.... AND even listening to the sickos in these forums who have whole bot farms in multiples x multiples AND the bug I'm getting wanting one of every new, old and different steam punk history making 3D printing thing around - I am glad I got the MBI T-O-M as my first bot.

You are right. The $300.00 more comes in because ----....

[Thomas Charron]

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 1:07 AM, learned nerd <thelear...@gmail.com> wrote:

> not cuz it costs more.. the price difference is small enough not to worry
> about considering the benefits of the MBI community-- it;s explained in the
> post

... MakerGear has just as much of a community, if not more so.
Specifically, because Rick is *part* of the community. MakerGear
doesn't simply produce something, and bless the community with their
'uber ideas', and then leave the community to support it themselves.

--
-- Thomas

[B Stott]

Yeah - I've read and bought from MakerGear. I've made a hot head kit of theirs in experimenting. I like their experiments and such too.

I think a good point was made earlier that the new printer is V.1. So, should a newby buy V.1 of a technically involving anything? Generally - No. Unless they are technically savvy, have the inclination and desires to work out more bugs from a new device. Does the man want to buy into a new technology, industry? Does he want to buy into a company that has a good rep for parts and never sold a machine? Does he want to buy a machine from a company that has built, tested and sold machines for  how long? Two - three years? Does he want to buy from a company that has a tech support team of three plus very experienced personnel and a company that has sold over ??? four (4) thousand machines? Or does he want to be the first twenty? of a new venture?

How much desire to tinker and hope for a plug and print does he have?

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[Bob Sponsler]

That really sums up my thought process here B. I am definitely very
impressed with the stuff I've seen and read over at MG and when I get
to the point of modding and tweaking my bot that will likely be the
first place I go. But version 1 vs version 4001 is a major point to
consider even if we were talking about giant mega companies like
Toyota (just ask my father who bought the first model Toyota van back
in the early 80's). If I had some chops as a maker I'd love to take on
the challenge of a ver 1 printer as cool as the mosaic seems to be -
but I don't yet. I have a huge desire to tinker which is a reason I'm
getting into DIY 3d printing in the first place, but I also don't want
to get in over my head on my first project - not that MG doesn't have
stellar tech support and a great community but I feel like ToM is less
of a risk for me. Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's input and
don't want to step on anyones toes by speculating on which printer is
"best" - but my gut says the ToM is best for me.

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

I wouldn't consider it. V1 printer actually. He has printed
successfully with Cupcakes, UP printers, and Mendels and frankly it
looks like a blend if all three. Linear slide rails are used in the
UP, and the Teflon coated acme screw is a great upgrade from the
ToM's! I would consider this printer the result of years of research!

I dont need another printer to not have time to print with but this
one excited me, I'll be curious to see/hear it running in videos. I
love the Ultimaker too, to see a normally 45 minute part print in 9
and look great is amazing!

You can get great prints from ANY printer you care to spend the time
with, I think.

Luis E. Rodriguez

[B Stott]

"You can get great prints from ANY printer you care to spend the time
with,  I think."

That is a big point too Luis. If you "spend the time." I've put in my time with my bot. And I still haven't the clue to make it play beautiful music (make Dimension level parts - I think it can get close. I can play music on it like you all can thanks to the apps.) But, my ToM (T-O-M) is a wonder. Each silly little print - that goes well - every time it drops to the floor (I don't have a bin/catcher yet) after the ABP's buzzing alerts that it is done. Or just sitting mesmerized with flashlight and magnifying glass in hands (I'm going blind and still haven't hooked up the LEDs sitting next to the bot.) trying to see which way to now adjust SF for proper amount of plastic. Or just being mesmerized while it prints. Then holding the fresh part looking at the 30-40-100 plus rows of finely spun plastic correctly laid... WOW! What a world it is going to be in a few more short years.

[ddurant]

> I wouldn't consider it...

 

That 4000 number probably includes +3000 people with DC extruders, too.. Show of hands on people happy with their MK4 reliability, please?

 

> I love the Ultimaker too

 

I just gave mine a pat on the top panel for you. :P