Re: [MakerBot] Re: HBP Warping

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

I had the very same problem until I switched to Kapton tape. I run my HBP at 125 and use the 1" roll of tape that came with my bot. Now I have more problem removing pieces now! They also sell sheets of it at Mcmaster Carr but I've not ordered it yet.

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 11:25 PM, coasterman <coast...@live.com> wrote:

D'oh, I hate the way they provide links.
http://s885.photobucket.com/albums/ac59/coasterman1/3D%20Printer/?action=view&current=2011-04-1400-20-22168.jpg#!oZZ2QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs885.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac59%2Fcoasterman1%2F3D%2520Printer%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-1400-20-19721-1.jpg

On Apr 14, 12:24 am, coasterman <coaster...@live.com> wrote:
> One pic:http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac59/coasterman1/3D%20Printer/2011...

> more available there if you go through a few pics.
>
> On Apr 14, 12:09 am, coasterman <coaster...@live.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've recently gotten the HBP for my Cupcake CNC and have had a few
> > issues with warping, but now it is becoming quite an annoying problem.
>
> > I run it at 110 degrees Celsius with blue painter's tape on it, and I
> > use ABS plastic.
>
> > Basically, my parts are warping as if I were printing onto non-heated
> > acrylic. This is getting quite annoying because I have some prints to
> > do and warping is the last thing I want to worry about. I've been
> > leaving this alone for some time but I get mad when I see beautiful
> > prints from other people and then I look at my printer and its warped
> > parts.
>
> > I tried as much as I could to fix this (different temps, different
> > surfaces, etc) but nothing has gotten better.
>
> > I used to use kapton on it, and then I sanded it as I read that
> > sanding "improves adhesion". In my case. it did the opposite and made
> > the kapton worthless, even though I used the suggested 220 grit and
> > rubbed it down with isopropyl alcohol. It works great with PLA, but it
> > doesn't work well for ABS.
>
> > Any ideas on how to fix this?

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[Damon]

I run my HBP with Kapton at 140 and prints stick like glue until it
cools to 100.

--
http://www.damonkohler.com/

[Paul De Bra]

Way too hot!

I also use the HBP with kapton tape (2 layers) and run the HBP at 100
degrees (centigrade). You should not go way higher than that. When I
let it cool down to below 70 degrees the objects come off without
great force.
When I was using the ABP I ran the platform at higher temperature
because more heat appears to be lost when using a belt. The painters
tape may have a similar effect requiring higher temperature.
The platform needs to be perfectly level and the height needs to be
adjusted well too. I'm printing without a raft and without any
problems. (on a ToM but that should not matter for the platform)

[Damon]

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Paul De Bra <de...@win.tue.nl> wrote:
> Way too hot!

*shrug* It works for me. I've tried lots of different temps, and to
make things stick I keep the Kapton clean with Acetone and go up to
140. I think Nophead does it similarly but he prints on PET.

[Marcus Wolschon]

On 14 Apr., 06:09, coasterman <coaster...@live.com> wrote:
> I've recently gotten the HBP for my Cupcake CNC and have had a few
> issues with warping, but now it is becoming quite an annoying problem.
>
> I run it at 110 degrees Celsius with blue painter's tape on it, and I
> use ABS plastic.

Increase the temperature.
Are you running a fan that may cool things down on the surface?
ABS sticks perfectly to hot kapton tape but you have to hit the
surface-temperature. Mine runs unregulated at something between 120
and 140°C .

Check in what place the temperature-sensor is measuring it and
what the actual surface temperature is,

[Marcus Wolschon]

On 14 Apr., 07:33, "Luis E. Rodriguez" <lrodriguezm...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Now I have more
> problem removing pieces now!

You may let the platform cool down before getting them off.
The ABS shrinks more then the Kapton does.
That should be easy to automate in the g-code .

[Owen M Collins]

THat is way hotter than most people. Is the thermistor making good contact with the plate? Most people find that at that temp it deforms the lower layers of the model.

O.

[James McCracken]

A few thoughts on this...

Sorry to say, sanding does appear to do more harm than good. Replace
with fresh kapton tape at your earliest convenience

Check for drafts through your bot. Try creating a "makerbot tent" by
taping a piece of paper to one or more of the openings. I generally
tape the back and if its particularly cold the side opening as well.

Do check and ensure that your HBP is perfectly level. If it's off by
more than half a layer height (~0.2 mm) you can get a situation where
one area prints beautifully and other areas are extruding into thin
air on the first layer; alternatively it could require you to squish
parts of the platform more than strictly necessary (which causes it's
own issues)

I know, you hate rafts. So do I. Try one anyways, sometimes they
help. Generally with a well-tuned HBP, you're going to get better
results raftless anyways (warping and curling can still happen with a
raft even on an HBP) - but YMMV depending on the bot and the object
you're trying to print

Try mouse ears:
blog.makerbot.com/2011/02/25/mouse-ears-defeat-corner-curling-monster/

[Brent Crosby]

On Apr 14, 2:03 am, Paul De Bra <de...@win.tue.nl> wrote:
> Way too hot!

I have been running my Cupcake HBP + Kapton at 150C preheat 140C build
and having good results raftless.

I had to add insulation between the HBP PCB and the wood platform, and
I preheat with a paper cover on the HBP to get it to 150.

What I have found from aborted build is that the first 1/8" or more of
the ABS is pliable at those temperatures. My theory is that this
pliable layer next to the HBP allows it to flex slightly without
detaching from the platform as the model grows upward.

I have the end.gcode turning off the HBP at the end of the build. Once
it cools, typically the parts pop right off.

If they are hot though, they can adhere so well that it will lift the
Kapton if you force them off.

The largest problem I have is that the edges of the HBP will be cooler
than the center. The heating traces are evenly distributed, but there
is much more heat loss at the corners at the edges and corners than at
the center. Exacerbating this problem is that the temp is measured in
the center, at the hottest part of the HBP. It might be that my
150/140 in the center is what it takes to get the corners to ~120 !

On Apr 14, 2:11 am, Damon <damonkoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> make things stick I keep the Kapton clean with Acetone and go up to

I just clean my Kapton with a rag dampened in water when it is hot
(sizzle). It gets the fingerprints off and is not nasty like Acetone.
The ABS scraps can be picked off with a fingernail when cool.

On Apr 14, 5:44 am, James McCracken <merlin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry to say, sanding does appear to do more harm than good.

Agreed. Sanding does not help.

[Mark Cohen]

140c is too hot unless your thermistor is off. 130c should be fine and
it should pop off at 85c. If you continue to run at 140c I think your
HBP circuit board will eventually delaminate. I have 5 boards and one
did disintegrate so I know this to be true.

[Mark Cohen]

@Damon:
You probably need to take the board apart and press the thermistor
further through the hole so that it contacts the plate, Also heat sink
compound might need to be replaced. If you are using a thicker metal
plate (>1/8inch) this might account for the difference but it would
take longer to warm up and will eventually break the board. The pid
settings may also be off. I think it should be 4198 (different than
the heater PID), but I'm not in front of the thing right now.

[Mark Cohen]

Check the metal plate on the HBP. If it looks curved instead of flat
from the front then replace it or put a second piece on top. Do not
exceed 1/8 inch.

[Mark Cohen]

@Brent:
Something is very wrong if you need to run it that hot. I would take
it apart and see if anything has fallen off the circuit board such as
a trace failing. I would also check that the thermistor head is
through the hole and check the pid settings and check the thickness of
the metal plate. You might check the HBP with an InfraRed Thermometer
to see if it really is that hot.

[Mark Cohen]

I just put a fan to exhaust on the side of my cupcake. The print
facing the slight exhaust breeze is lifting so I'm going to remove the
fan. So I agree that even a slight draft can cause problems.

[ddurant]

I've never had good luck with blue tape but am a big fan of the really think kapton that MBI sells - that's what I use on my HBP, which I run at 110C.

 

If you're reasonably confident that your thermistor isn't totally off (hint: water boils at 100C), I'd resist the urge to crank up the temperature as that can cause other heat-related problems.

 

The first layer settings are probably where I'd start trying to fix this; slowing down the feed rate there and getting it good & squashed into the platform. Maybe tweaking your starting Z position to be a bit lower too, if you can. Basically, if you're not right to the point where more squashing and tweaking would deform the first layer, you haven't squashed and tweaked enough yet.

[JohnA.]

Acetone + Kapton or acetone + PET tape is like magic for ABS.

Wiping with water or alcohol helps, but won't work perfectly.

Put down cheap kapton (I use the 4" stuff), wipe with acetone (or nail
polish remover, if it's all you've got) between prints, and you'll
never have an ABS print come loose. I have to PRY mine off.

3 hours, 4 hours, doesn't matter: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jabella/4771389280/in/set-72157623829152993

Giant prints, no warping at all. 120 on the HBP.

John A.

[Gian Pablo]

I'd say maybe a thermistor issue here. See if you can verify the temperature.

I bought some 4" wide Kapton tape from Minnesota Vacuum a while back, and would never print on anything else. It's a lot thinner than the stuff from MBI (golden in color), stuff sticks to it perfectly, and snaps off when it cools. 

[Mark Cohen]

me to. it prints so well on it that ive broken parts trying to get it off.

[Brent Crosby]

> Check the metal plate on the HBP. If it looks curved instead of flat
> from the front

Assuming you have the recessed head screws, take the assembled HBP off
(do-not disassemble), and flat sand the whole thing on some 220 grit
wet-or-dry sandpaper (the thin black stuff) taped to a glass table-
top. Then it is truly flat, and it accounts for any mounting pressure
warp. It may take some time to sand it to where every area is scuffed,
but that will make it as perfectly flat as is possible for this kind
of operation.

> Something is very wrong if you need to run it that hot.

I dono, seems to work fine. I agree it will probably break like
everything else on this machine. 150C is too hot for the FR4.

> You might check the HBP with an InfraRed Thermometer

My cheesy Harbor freight IR thermomemeter agrees within a few degrees.

Maybe the acetone would allow me to get good stickiness without such
high temps. I dono, what I think is going on is that the bottom of the
part is soft at that temp and does not have the strength to warp.

On Apr 14, 6:55 am, Mark Cohen <markcoh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Check the metal plate on the HBP. If it looks curved instead of flat
> from the front then replace it or put a second piece on top. Do not
> exceed 1/8 inch.

[Owen M Collins]

Have we answered the original questions?

Maybe your Thermistor is off and you need to up the temp. And it sounds like people in the thread like unsanded kapton, so maybe you should replace that.

My HBP uses the original Kapton film that came wit it. Unsanded.

HTH,
O.

On Apr 14, 2011, at 12:09 AM, coasterman wrote:

> I've recently gotten the HBP for my Cupcake CNC and have had a few
> issues with warping, but now it is becoming quite an annoying problem.
>
> I run it at 110 degrees Celsius with blue painter's tape on it, and I
> use ABS plastic.
>

> Basically, my parts are warping as if I were printing onto non-heated
> acrylic. This is getting quite annoying because I have some prints to
> do and warping is the last thing I want to worry about. I've been
> leaving this alone for some time but I get mad when I see beautiful
> prints from other people and then I look at my printer and its warped
> parts.
>
> I tried as much as I could to fix this (different temps, different
> surfaces, etc) but nothing has gotten better.
>
> I used to use kapton on it, and then I sanded it as I read that
> sanding "improves adhesion". In my case. it did the opposite and made
> the kapton worthless, even though I used the suggested 220 grit and
> rubbed it down with isopropyl alcohol. It works great with PLA, but it
> doesn't work well for ABS.
>
> Any ideas on how to fix this?
>

[Expsoure101]

I guess I'll put my two cents on this :)

I am running my ABP at 135, per Bre's suggestion and it works rather
well. 110 is to cool, and I'm afraid of going above 135 or 140 and I
don't see the need for it. I have my makerbot sitting near a window
with an air duct at the top running out the window. I have used
cardboard to tape off the rest of the window so there isn't a breeze.
Then I hung an old towel about 6-8 inches behind my bot to help
insulate it from the window coldness. I used a clip on desktop that
produces a bit of heat and clipped it on my rack that my bot sits on
and that shines in through the left window....this not only lights up
my work space, it helps keep the air temperature warm. I put a clear
rubbermaid top up against the front window to help insulate heat also
and still allow me to see into it. The back and left side of the bot
also have page protectors taped to them. I have found this setup to
work really well...regardless of how ridiculous it looks :) My ABP is
covered in kaptop tape...I have tried blue painters tape...I have
tried just printing on the belt...I have tried printing with
nothing....kapton tape is the bomb. My prints usually make me giddy
and astonished at how pretty they are.


P.S. Sanding is a pointless, messy, waste of energy. If your going
for functional parts that are very close to clearance...sanding is
probably your best bet. If your going for looks and consistent
accuracy, it all comes down to how your machine is setup, the
cleanliness and accuracy of all the threads, rods, and steppers, and
skeinforge of doom...which still kind of boggles my mind no matter how
many settings I play with or how much I read...but regardless i get
some pretty damn good prints unless I change something to much playing
with it.

**NOTE TO SELF** Don't try to print a raft with .3 fill for the
layers that touch the object at a high speed....I was hoping to have
it print a thin raft so I wouldn't waste that much plastic...and still
be able to rip it right off without much clean up...just turned into a
sloppy mess where the raft was completely embedded into the object
haha. YAY PLAYING WITH SETTINGS YAY!!!

[Brent Crosby]

On Apr 14, 9:23 am, Expsoure101 <tyler.expos...@gmail.com> wrote:
> . . . P.S.  Sanding is a pointless . . .

Sanding ABS parts, yes, I agree it is usually pointless.

I was talking about sanding the aluminum build platform flat. ;)

[Aaron Double]

I think he was saying sanding the kapton is pointless.

[Paul De Bra]

The ABP belt seems to take away a lot of the heat.
When I was using the ABP I was using 135 degrees.
I got rid of the belt and now use a kapton-covered HBP and 100 degrees
is enough. Maybe 110 is still a bit better, but the HBP definitely
needs less heat than the ABP.

[Brian Stott]

Say, use tinyurl.com or bit.ly and save us from THE URL. ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: coasterman <coast...@live.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 12:25 AM
To: MakerBot Operators <make...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [MakerBot] Re: HBP Warping

D'oh, I hate the way they provide links.
http://s885.photobucket.com/albums/ac59/coasterman1/3D%20Printer/?action=view&current=2011-04-1400-20-22168.jpg#!oZZ2QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs885.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac59%2Fcoasterman1%2F3D%2520Printer%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D2011-04-1400-20-19721-1.jpg

On Apr 14, 12:24 am, coasterman <coaster...@live.com> wrote:
> One pic:http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac59/coasterman1/3D%20Printer/2011...
> more available there if you go through a few pics.
>

> On Apr 14, 12:09 am, coasterman <coaster...@live.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I've recently gotten the HBP for my Cupcake CNC and have had a few
> > issues with warping, but now it is becoming quite an annoying problem.
>
> > I run it at 110 degrees Celsius with blue painter's tape on it, and I
> > use ABS plastic.
>
> > Basically, my parts are warping as if I were printing onto non-heated
> > acrylic. This is getting quite annoying because I have some prints to
> > do and warping is the last thing I want to worry about. I've been
> > leaving this alone for some time but I get mad when I see beautiful
> > prints from other people and then I look at my printer and its warped
> > parts.
>
> > I tried as much as I could to fix this (different temps, different
> > surfaces, etc) but nothing has gotten better.
>
> > I used to use kapton on it, and then I sanded it as I read that
> > sanding "improves adhesion". In my case. it did the opposite and made
> > the kapton worthless, even though I used the suggested 220 grit and
> > rubbed it down with isopropyl alcohol. It works great with PLA, but it
> > doesn't work well for ABS.
>
> > Any ideas on how to fix this?

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[The entire original message is not included]

[Brian Stott]

Someone is using titanium foil as a belt. Go google it.

Try mouse ears:
blog.makerbot.com/2011/02/25/mouse-ears-defeat-corner-curling-monster/

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[The Ruttmeister]

Or, just order some PLA.

Throw your HBP away.

enjoy a sweet smelling printer (as opposed to one that slowly poisons
you) that doesn't have warping issues.

[Expsoure101]

Haha ahh...ok sorry about that. Yeah i tried that, it helped
some...but honestly kaptop tape is where its at :)